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Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/03 13:56:13


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


How do!

According to the BBC, https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-62406098, the forthcoming Batgirl movie has been scrapped.

Article cites a poor pre-screening reaction. But curiously, a pretty conservative budget of $70m.

That’s not a lot of money at all for a super hero movie, so one has to wonder just how bloody awful it turned out? I mean…DCEU has produced some utter stinkers, but none exactly box office bombs so much as disappointing.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/03 13:57:06


Post by: beast_gts


Batgirl/Batwoman does seem cursed...


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/03 14:07:30


Post by: AduroT


I’d caught a tidbit that said it was slated for a digital release and post acquisition the new bosses didn’t want to focus on that anymore.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/03 14:19:12


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


It just seems daft to have it in the can, then bin it.

Cancel pre-production sure. But at this stage? There’s got to be more to it, surely.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/03 14:21:14


Post by: Ghaz


According to this SYFY article the studio reportedly opted to "cut its losses and run, for the sake of the brand’s future". The article also mentions "... that the shelving option allows the studio to "take a tax write-down on the film, seen internally as the most financially sound way to recoup the costs ... Doing so, however, would mean that Warner Bros. cannot monetize the movie — no HBO Max debut, no sale to another studio."".


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/03 14:25:20


Post by: Turnip Jedi


I concur with Mad Doc regarding the "how bad can it in ?" given it has at least some JK Simmonds then it mostly trumps all the DC other films bar Aquaman (moist Momoa, hhhm er, never confused me)


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/03 14:31:57


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Tax thing does make sense I suppose.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/03 14:32:14


Post by: LunarSol


Aquaman. Either the worst good movie or best bad movie of 2018. I'm inclined to vote for the latter.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/03 14:44:41


Post by: Easy E


Oh boy. This will become infamous.....


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/03 14:45:00


Post by: Flinty


Its all Glasgow's fault!


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/03 14:47:55


Post by: beast_gts


 Easy E wrote:
Oh boy. This will become infamous.....
Yep. I've got a VHS bootleg of the infamous 1994 Fantastic Four movie somewhere.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/03 14:49:07


Post by: El Torro


 Ghaz wrote:
According to this SYFY article the studio reportedly opted to "cut its losses and run, for the sake of the brand’s future". The article also mentions "... that the shelving option allows the studio to "take a tax write-down on the film, seen internally as the most financially sound way to recoup the costs ... Doing so, however, would mean that Warner Bros. cannot monetize the movie — no HBO Max debut, no sale to another studio."".


I would have thought that if the film were released and it bombed then it could still be a tax write off. After all film studios do this even with films that are successful (e.g. Titanic).


I get the point about not wanting to tarnish the brand with a terrible film though. Still, with the DC movies that have made it to release in recent years this must have been a real stinker.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/03 14:52:30


Post by: Tallonian4th


So this was produced enough to screen to members of the public and they still canned it? That has to be some monumentally bad reaction if they don't think they can find anyway to redeem it to a releasable state. To be honest now they have canned it they would probably make enough at the box office to cover it out of sheer curiosity.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/03 14:54:36


Post by: Tannhauser42


beast_gts wrote:
 Easy E wrote:
Oh boy. This will become infamous.....
Yep. I've got a VHS bootleg of the infamous 1994 Fantastic Four movie somewhere.


I had one, too! And it wasn't really that bad...


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/03 14:57:16


Post by: beast_gts


From Variety:

“Batgirl” found itself on the bad end of that decision, apparently neither big enough to feel worthy of a major theatrical release nor small enough to make economic sense in an increasingly cutthroat streaming landscape. Spending the money to expand the scope of “Batgirl” for theaters — plus the $30 million to $50 million needed to market it domestically and the tens of millions more needed for a global rollout — could have nearly doubled spending on the film, and insiders say that was a non-starter at a company newly focused on belt-tightening and the bottom line.

Releasing the movie on HBO Max would seem to be the most obvious solution. Instead, the company has shelved “Batgirl” — along with the “Scoob!” sequel — and several sources say it will almost certainly take a tax write-down on both films, seen internally as the most financially sound way to recoup the costs (at least, on an accountant’s ledger). It could justify that by chalking it up to a post-merger change of strategy.

Doing so, however, would mean that Warner Bros. cannot monetize either movie — no HBO Max debut, no sale to another studio.

What the decision will cost the studio in creative capital, meanwhile, remains to be seen.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/03 15:01:46


Post by: Voss


Tallonian4th wrote:
So this was produced enough to screen to members of the public and they still canned it? That has to be some monumentally bad reaction if they don't think they can find anyway to redeem it to a releasable state. To be honest now they have canned it they would probably make enough at the box office to cover it out of sheer curiosity.


According to the bbc article (well, the new york post article the bbc quotes), yeah. It tested... poorly. To the point that they didn't show anything at Comic-con, or even mention it at the DC comics panel, which is grim.
And on top, the new boss doesn't like streaming, apparently.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-62406098

https://nypost.com/2022/08/02/batgirl-movie-gets-shelved-by-warner-bros-source/


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/03 16:12:35


Post by: LunarSol


Warner Bros has been something of a bloodbath since the sale. I don't think anything is going to make a lot of sense for a while until someone figures out what they want to do with what I suspect was more of an IP acquisition than any interest in any sort of media output.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/03 16:18:09


Post by: hotsauceman1


Not wanting to tarnish the brand yet still planning to release Ezra Millers flash.......
The cynic in me thinks some sexism might be happening


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/03 16:19:09


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


But even Disney put out the woeful Young X-Men film I still haven’t seen.

I mean….the money is spent? And it wasn’t your money anyway.

I’m kind of morbidly curious to find out what the reaction actually was.

No. Not Morb’dly Curious. I’ll never be curious enough to watch a film with that cretin in it.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/03 16:20:13


Post by: Tallonian4th


Voss wrote:
Tallonian4th wrote:
So this was produced enough to screen to members of the public and they still canned it? That has to be some monumentally bad reaction if they don't think they can find anyway to redeem it to a releasable state. To be honest now they have canned it they would probably make enough at the box office to cover it out of sheer curiosity.


According to the bbc article (well, the new york post article the bbc quotes), yeah. It tested... poorly. To the point that they didn't show anything at Comic-con, or even mention it at the DC comics panel, which is grim.
And on top, the new boss doesn't like streaming, apparently.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-62406098

https://nypost.com/2022/08/02/batgirl-movie-gets-shelved-by-warner-bros-source/


Wow I'm now really curious to see how bad it is!

Worrying the new execs don't like streaming. That smacks of Blockbuster levels of ignoring how the industry is moving.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/03 16:27:55


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Streaming thing could be seeing the main competition to be Netflix (losing subscribers) Amazon (other sources of revenue, Prime just part of their pie and already a decent amount of VOD and purchases) and of course Disney+….which is a juggernaut unto to itself thanks to tactical acquisition of valuable properties.

Paramount+ is a bit of a damp squib to me. No idea how it’s been received.

But The Big Three have more content each than WB can really put on such a platform. They could put it up as a channel on Prime, but that’s auto-competing for watch time as it is.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/03 16:28:01


Post by: LunarSol


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
But even Disney put out the woeful Young X-Men film I still haven’t seen.

I mean….the money is spent? And it wasn’t your money anyway.

I’m kind of morbidly curious to find out what the reaction actually was.

No. Not Morb’dly Curious. I’ll never be curious enough to watch a film with that cretin in it.


What about the Batgirl, Morbius, Ugly Sonic cinematic universe?

On a side note, I'm feeling SLIGHTLY robbed of not getting Ugly Super Sonic.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/03 16:33:30


Post by: Henry


To not get released the film must have been worse than Catwoman.

That doesn't bear thinking about.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/03 16:34:47


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


 Henry wrote:
To not get released the film must have been worse than Catwoman.

That doesn't bear thinking about.


Sweet googly moogly what a horrific but accurate point!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Henry wrote:
To not get released the film must have been worse than Catwoman.

That doesn't bear thinking about.


You can go see Ugly Sonic in that film that recently came out that wasn’t a Sonic film but featured Ugly Sonic. Just like everyone else.

I’ve seen that movie, I enjoyed that movie. Couldn’t tell you it’s name though, which I accept isn’t exactly a ringing endorsement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Chip and Dale. It was Chip and Dale.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/03 16:36:34


Post by: LunarSol


To be fair, different people are making the call on acceptable quality, but now I want my bootleg to have a "Worse than Catwoman" sticker on it.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/03 18:44:25


Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured


It must have had such a bad testing result (even worse than Ruby Rose)

(or they've got significant financial issues that mean a significant tax write off is really needed for the business/for the current head honcho in which case it could have had a positive response and it would have been done for anyway)


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/03 19:01:11


Post by: Grimskul


 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Not wanting to tarnish the brand yet still planning to release Ezra Millers flash.......
The cynic in me thinks some sexism might be happening


Removed.

Warner Bros legit are holding onto some bad apple actors at the moment, between Amber Heard with her recent dumpster fire of a trial with Johnny Depp and Ezra Miller's whole grooming and insanity using the trans label to justify his actions, WB really needs to clean house. Also, I'm shocked at how reluctant they are at using Henry Cavill for more Superman stuff.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/03 21:19:43


Post by: beast_gts


Probably related:

HBO Max is expected to layoff around 70% of their development staff.

“Sounds like they’re not doing HBO Max scripted shows anymore with HBO taking over, so less scripted shows overall,” says one company insider.

(Source: https://thewrap.com/hbo-max-layoffs-warner-bros-discovery-q2-earnings-preview/)


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/03 22:07:56


Post by: Lance845


Wow. Time Warner just keeps spending money to make streaming services and then burning them to the ground.

Dc universe and now HBO max. Its fun to watch them burn through their money at least.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/03 22:51:43


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Not wanting to tarnish the brand yet still planning to release Ezra Millers flash.......
That film has been finished for a while - it was meant to be out last month - and cost a hell of a lot more than this Batgirl film.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
The cynic in me thinks some sexism might be happening
That's daft.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/03 23:03:59


Post by: Casualty


Hollywood Reporter has confirmed it scored just fine with audiences, but that was already known if you know any of the Twitter and Reddit folks who regularly have the scoop on test screenings -

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/batgirl-hbo-max-movie-dc-canceled-1235191932/

"Batgirl’s test score, which was for a director’s cut, is comparable to scores for the first It (2017), which wound up grossing $700.3 million globally, as well as an early score for the upcoming Shazam! Fury of the Gods. Both of those films tested in the 60s."

The idea it's being binned because it tested badly is 100% spin to justify a call that had already been made for corporate reasons. There's a reason it was "leaked" to the NY Post in particular.

I get that's the business, but there's something incredibly ugly about a lie like that, when it's something hundreds of people worked on for a year and they're already getting the kick in the teeth of knowing nobody will see it.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/04 01:03:40


Post by: Jehan-reznor


I guess it will suddenly be available somewhere like the Corman Fantastic Four movie


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/04 01:45:10


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


For years, the Fantastic 4 thing confused me. I went to a comic convention where the cast were promoting it like any cast would promote their movie. They had all kinds of pictures, answered questions. Then….nothing. For years I wondered what happened.

Now I feel bad for them. What a slap in the face for a group of young actors! And it almost certainly affected their careers.

Now the Batgirl cast get the same treatment, but worse. How much worse will their careers be after the studio told the world their film was so terrible it couldn’t be released.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/04 05:17:29


Post by: H.B.M.C.





A good (however lengthy) summary of information - including more than one bit of first hand information - and a discussion of the situation/reasoning/potential fallout, Zaslav's leadership vs what Jason Kilar did when he was in charge, and the tax/financial implications behind this decision.



Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/04 05:46:30


Post by: Ahtman


For those mentioning The Flash film it has (at least) double the budget and also Michael F****ng Keaton in it as Batman. Ezra Miller antics outside the film will keep him from further Flash movies but that bad boy is getting released in some capacity.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/04 05:47:50


Post by: H.B.M.C.


To be fair, this film also had Michael Keaton in it.

But yes, Flash cost significantly more, and is actually complete.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/04 05:49:40


Post by: Ahtman


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
To be fair, this film also had Michael Keaton in it.


Was this also the one that started as a Joss Whedon script? I thought I remembered he was supposed to be doing something Batgirl related a bit ago.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/04 05:51:37


Post by: Thargrim


beast_gts wrote:
Probably related:

HBO Max is expected to layoff around 70% of their development staff.

“Sounds like they’re not doing HBO Max scripted shows anymore with HBO taking over, so less scripted shows overall,” says one company insider.

(Source: https://thewrap.com/hbo-max-layoffs-warner-bros-discovery-q2-earnings-preview/)


This doesn't bode well for that hbo max Dune spinoff show they were working on, might be canned now, bummer.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/04 07:45:54


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


 H.B.M.C. wrote:



A good (however lengthy) summary of information - including more than one bit of first hand information - and a discussion of the situation/reasoning/potential fallout, Zaslav's leadership vs what Jason Kilar did when he was in charge, and the tax/financial implications behind this decision.



Cheers for that. Informative article is informative.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/04 09:32:40


Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured


I guess it might also be that all the actors and directors etc were on a flat fee rather than anything involving percentages, or bonuses based on how well it did

so easier to kill without lawsuits asking for money based on what the talents lawyers claim the film should have done if it was released


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/04 14:19:48


Post by: gorgon


 Ahtman wrote:
For those mentioning The Flash film it has (at least) double the budget and also Michael F****ng Keaton in it as Batman. Ezra Miller antics outside the film will keep him from further Flash movies but that bad boy is getting released in some capacity.


Yeah. There's too much invested there...but also The Flash probably has a chance to make a lot more money.

Batgirl was (possibly poorly) originally conceived of as an expensive $70 million streaming-only shindig...before they decided to give it a theatrical run to try to make more money...but that cost more money to bring it up to that level...and then would still require tens of millions in marketing expenses, etc. This kinda describes a money pit to me.

And even if test screenings were solid, let's remember that Birds of Prey did well there AND critically but never found an audience. Batgirl has the same screenwriter as BoP, FYI. Which is not to say that she's bad or to blame, just that maybe it felt like Groundhog Day to the studio with another box-office dud. It does seem crazy to just gakcan it, but I'm not sure there was ever really a good plan for the project.

Honestly, it makes sense to me for them to focus on their biggest characters and give them good films that can really kill it. Rather than spam smaller theatrical films or streaming films for lesser characters in a universe where the existence of Superman is up in the air and Batman is a 70 year old guy (or will be, post-Flash). And the other Batman that killed it at the box office is walled off from the main universe. If the plan is to shore up the core stuff, then move forward...I'm on board with that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Grimskul wrote:
Warner Bros legit are holding onto some bad apple actors at the moment, between Amber Heard with her recent dumpster fire of a trial with Johnny Depp and Ezra Miller's whole grooming and insanity using the trans label to justify his actions, WB really needs to clean house. Also, I'm shocked at how reluctant they are at using Henry Cavill for more Superman stuff.


Buzz is that the studio is done with Miller after The Flash. But they aren't going to cut off their nose to spite their face with The Flash. And Miller is hardly the only troubled actor in Hollywood history. I don't think Miller and Heard sticking around for one more movie is that big of a deal outside of Twitter.

Henry Cavill on the other hand must have banged someone's wife.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Casualty wrote:
I get that's the business, but there's something incredibly ugly about a lie like that, when it's something hundreds of people worked on for a year and they're already getting the kick in the teeth of knowing nobody will see it.


I feel for all the creative professionals who worked on the film. It really sucks to put a lot of energy and juice into something that never sees the light of day. But that is how it goes sometimes for creatives who aren't Hollywood filmmakers. I've certainly worked on stuff that never launched. Different thing and wildly different scale, of course...but this is something that happens to creative people. As long as everyone was paid for the work and fairly treated otherwise, you just have to shrug and move on. It seems shocking for Hollywood but isn't so shocking in other creative fields.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/04 14:40:45


Post by: MarkNorfolk


Wow, he got all her up. But it more or less confirms the movie was poor. A shame for all those who worked on it and it would've been great to see Michael as Batman again. C'est la vie, I guess.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/04 14:55:02


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
I guess it might also be that all the actors and directors etc were on a flat fee rather than anything involving percentages, or bonuses based on how well it did

so easier to kill without lawsuits asking for money based on what the talents lawyers claim the film should have done if it was released
That's because it was a streaming movie, not a theatrical movie with points-based deals for the stars.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/04 17:02:45


Post by: Flinty


BBC News is currently running through why all the Glasgow locals got annoyed by the filming process, and how it wrecked their businesses. Nothing like kicking a subject when they are down


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/04 17:03:46


Post by: Dysartes


 Flinty wrote:
BBC News is currently running through why all the Glasgow locals got annoyed by the filming process, and how it wrecked their businesses. Nothing like kicking a subject when they are down

Something tells me that the filming of a TV movie was not the single point of failure for their businesses, but it makes a handy scapegoat.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/04 17:06:36


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


 Dysartes wrote:
 Flinty wrote:
BBC News is currently running through why all the Glasgow locals got annoyed by the filming process, and how it wrecked their businesses. Nothing like kicking a subject when they are down

Something tells me that the filming of a TV movie was not the single point of failure for their businesses, but it makes a handy scapegoat.


Dunno. If it interfered with foot traffic and/or parking, with the promise of a later Infamy pay off (for instance, Cockburn Street in Edinburgh is where we first see Wanda and Vision in Infinity War. The shops there point that out with window stickers etc) as recognisable locations? They’re not getting the promised, if nebulous, reward.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/04 17:43:34


Post by: Voss


 Flinty wrote:
BBC News is currently running through why all the Glasgow locals got annoyed by the filming process, and how it wrecked their businesses. Nothing like kicking a subject when they are down


I can sympathize. I lived in LA long enough to get thoroughly annoyed by 'No you can't, we're filming here' attitudes. University buildings shut down with no warning, shops inaccessible after an hour long trek to get there... it gets old, fast.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/04 19:15:37


Post by: Flinty


Cockburn street cant have been closed for more than a day or so though. Some of these businesses were apparently affected for a month, and unable even to get mail sorted correctly as Royal Mail couldn’t get up the street.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/04 19:26:01


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Only reinforces my point. The pay off, in theory, was bragging rights of a sort. Now? Apparently they can just suck it up.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/05 05:14:08


Post by: H.B.M.C.


After the storm of "the sky is falling!" from yesterday, here is a shorter follow-up video where we can take a breath and look at what's actually going on:




The TL;DR is: Stop reading headlines. Start reading articles. Scripted content is not going away. HBO Max =/= HBO (a confusion I had).



Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/05 08:01:43


Post by: Slipspace


 Flinty wrote:
Cockburn street cant have been closed for more than a day or so though. Some of these businesses were apparently affected for a month, and unable even to get mail sorted correctly as Royal Mail couldn’t get up the street.

It was actually closed for at least a week, possibly two, but only late evening and night time. Probably because the production didn't have to redress anything, so they were able to just move the crew and equipment in and out when necessary. Same with Waverley station.

I can imagine for the Glasgow businesses, losing a month of foot traffic and not even getting the brand recognition of appearing in a Hollywood movie, would be a major problem, especially just coming out of Covid. According to the BBC article the compensation worked out as about £30 a day, which is pitiful.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/05 08:31:01


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


As a wider consideration of Streets Closed For Filming, the exact location is going to matter too.

Cockburn Street for instance is the quickest way from Waverley Station up to the Royal Mile, via Fleshmarket Close. And it has various pubs and food places. If that bit is closed off, the businesses lose more foot traffic than you might think, as folk arriving at the station would need to go over George IVth Bridge.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/05 08:58:45


Post by: Vulcan


 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Not wanting to tarnish the brand yet still planning to release Ezra Millers flash.......
The cynic in me thinks some sexism might be happening


More likely the budget on Flash was much, much higher. Better to cut the smaller-budget stuff and try to recoup something on the really big-budget films.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/05 11:06:09


Post by: beast_gts


Batgirl: Warner Discovery to 'protect DC brands' as part of new strategy - BBC

Warner Bros bosses have announced they are restructuring the firm to focus on DC superhero movies, in the hope of emulating the success of rivals Marvel.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/05 12:20:22


Post by: Turnip Jedi


beast_gts wrote:
Batgirl: Warner Discovery to 'protect DC brands' as part of new strategy - BBC

Warner Bros bosses have announced they are restructuring the firm to focus on DC superhero movies, in the hope of emulating the success of rivals Marvel.



Bit late for that, and isn't the House of Mouse going with a gak at a wall plan, and of late its only "The misadventures of wakadoo Wanda" thats hauled in the big moneys and Shang and Eternals doing okay(ish) by MCU standards (and Spider-Tom but that's a tangled web of movie money voodoo)

Seems a bit strange to get risk adverse over "Bat-Barb bashs Baddies" as if the plan is just to copy the other lot, both their prior B-films, Antman and Guardians did ok (heck Ironman was fairly C-lister till RDJ and co smashed a home run)


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/05 13:20:55


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Cinema takings of late aren’t massively reliable benchmarks due to COVID.

Phase 4 has been, let’s say a bit unfocused. But I still wouldn’t say any MCU entry has been an out and out stinker as such. Eternals may well stick out like a sore thumb in-universe, but it’s still a pretty enjoyable if forgettable movie.

Compare to Suicide Squad and Justice League, which are just pretty rotten films through and through.

Maybe we’ll see a less Edge Lord DCEU in future. Sure “dark and gritty” (a term which always sets alarms off for me) Batman can work….but that’s about it. Edge Lord, Atlas Shrugged Superman was a bloody waste of Henry Cavill, and for reasons no-one can adequately explain.

Go back to the core of each character. Not the edgiest interpretation. Let Superman be The Big Blue Boy Scout. The one humanity looks up to.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/05 13:34:28


Post by: Slipspace


The biggest problem the "DC Universe" movies have had is that they didn't take any time to build a movie universe, unlike Marvel. Marvel took a long time setting everything up with standalone movies that were largely very good but had a coherent plan for bringing it all together.

The impression I get with the DC movies is of an executive demanding they "do a Marvel", but in about one tenth the timeframe. It doesn't help that the movies vary between terrible and pretty good.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/05 13:48:35


Post by: Voss


beast_gts wrote:
Batgirl: Warner Discovery to 'protect DC brands' as part of new strategy - BBC

Warner Bros bosses have announced they are restructuring the firm to focus on DC superhero movies, in the hope of emulating the success of rivals Marvel.


The worrying thing about that article is the idea that both studios want to refocus on the the Big Names.
We've seen those. Over and over and over again.
Its actually interesting to see smaller side characters, just don't do such a crap job with those films.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/05 13:49:02


Post by: AduroT


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Maybe we’ll see a less Edge Lord DCEU in future. Sure “dark and gritty” (a term which always sets alarms off for me) Batman can work….but that’s about it. Edge Lord, Atlas Shrugged Superman was a bloody waste of Henry Cavill, and for reasons no-one can adequately explain.

Go back to the core of each character. Not the edgiest interpretation. Let Superman be The Big Blue Boy Scout. The one humanity looks up to.


This is the worst part of Black Adam to me. All the marketing with how he’s a down and dirty dude who ain’t afraid to leave destruction in his wake or kill some dudes. Like uuuhhhhh… Have you not been watching the rest of the DC movies? Superman snaps a dude’s neck in his first movie. Wonder Woman blows up a bank to kill a guy who was no real threat to her.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/05 14:44:39


Post by: LunarSol


 AduroT wrote:
Wonder Woman blows up a bank to kill a guy who was no real threat to her.


This is much much worse in the Synder cut since there's a weird establishing shot added that makes it clear she is inches from him when he fires the initial rounds before he takes the time to flip to full auto to attack the hostages. She has SO much time to disarm him rather than do the crazy block down the line thing in that version. I actually like the Snyder Cut on the whole but this part drives me absolutely crazy.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/05 15:00:47


Post by: gorgon


 Vulcan wrote:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Not wanting to tarnish the brand yet still planning to release Ezra Millers flash.......
The cynic in me thinks some sexism might be happening


More likely the budget on Flash was much, much higher. Better to cut the smaller-budget stuff and try to recoup something on the really big-budget films.


Walter Hamada, the current DC boss, came there as a guy with a horror background. And what that genre is mostly about these days is small budgets + moderate box office = big profits. And it shows with most of what he greenlit...BoP, Shazam, Joker, etc. It sounds like the new boss wants big tentpole movies.

Who's right and who's wrong? I dunno. One can point to Joker as something small that blew up, although I think I'd rebut that by saying that film was about a director with a clear vision rather a star vehicle (like BoP and Robbie) that the studio wanted to create. It's interesting to consider that had Aquaman not already been in production when Hamada took over in the wake of BvS, it probably wouldn't have been greenlit by him. And that's an example of a big budget tentpole-style film that ended up with big profits when it broke a billion dollars. And it helped the brand at an important time.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/05 15:03:22


Post by: hotsauceman1


 AduroT wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Maybe we’ll see a less Edge Lord DCEU in future. Sure “dark and gritty” (a term which always sets alarms off for me) Batman can work….but that’s about it. Edge Lord, Atlas Shrugged Superman was a bloody waste of Henry Cavill, and for reasons no-one can adequately explain.

Go back to the core of each character. Not the edgiest interpretation. Let Superman be The Big Blue Boy Scout. The one humanity looks up to.


This is the worst part of Black Adam to me. All the marketing with how he’s a down and dirty dude who ain’t afraid to leave destruction in his wake or kill some dudes. Like uuuhhhhh… Have you not been watching the rest of the DC movies? Superman snaps a dude’s neck in his first movie. Wonder Woman blows up a bank to kill a guy who was no real threat to her.

Also is Vin Diesel
Who has a cause in his contract he can never lose a fight in any films he is in.
So the fights will be boring.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/05 15:05:21


Post by: Gert


The Rock is Black Adam.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/05 15:05:48


Post by: gorgon


 LunarSol wrote:
This is much much worse in the Synder cut since there's a weird establishing shot added that makes it clear she is inches from him when he fires the initial rounds before he takes the time to flip to full auto to attack the hostages. She has SO much time to disarm him rather than do the crazy block down the line thing in that version. I actually like the Snyder Cut on the whole but this part drives me absolutely crazy.


I like the Snyder Cut so much better than the theatrical cut, and yet my enthusiasm for it falls dramatically whenever I think of everything Snyder had planned to follow it. The hopeful ending is really just a fakeout for all the heel turns and deaths and mutilations to come in the planned sequels.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/05 15:09:27


Post by: hotsauceman1


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Cinema takings of late aren’t massively reliable benchmarks due to COVID.

Phase 4 has been, let’s say a bit unfocused. But I still wouldn’t say any MCU entry has been an out and out stinker as such. Eternals may well stick out like a sore thumb in-universe, but it’s still a pretty enjoyable if forgettable movie.

Compare to Suicide Squad and Justice League, which are just pretty rotten films through and through.

Maybe we’ll see a less Edge Lord DCEU in future. Sure “dark and gritty” (a term which always sets alarms off for me) Batman can work….but that’s about it. Edge Lord, Atlas Shrugged Superman was a bloody waste of Henry Cavill, and for reasons no-one can adequately explain.

Go back to the core of each character. Not the edgiest interpretation. Let Superman be The Big Blue Boy Scout. The one humanity looks up to.

I think it comes to alot of stories forgetting the Dynamic of Clark and superman.
Batman identifies as Batman, Bruce Wayne is his alter ego
Its kinda the opposite for superman. Clark Kent is the real entity, while Superman is more of a show he puts on. Clark does believe in the stuff Superman says, he isnt lying, but its a show where its turned up to 11.
Every recent superman movie has focused on only superman and barely Clark as a character. That is the problem
Supergirl and Lois and Clark got him right IMO


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/05 16:06:11


Post by: gorgon


 hotsauceman1 wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Cinema takings of late aren’t massively reliable benchmarks due to COVID.

Phase 4 has been, let’s say a bit unfocused. But I still wouldn’t say any MCU entry has been an out and out stinker as such. Eternals may well stick out like a sore thumb in-universe, but it’s still a pretty enjoyable if forgettable movie.

Compare to Suicide Squad and Justice League, which are just pretty rotten films through and through.

Maybe we’ll see a less Edge Lord DCEU in future. Sure “dark and gritty” (a term which always sets alarms off for me) Batman can work….but that’s about it. Edge Lord, Atlas Shrugged Superman was a bloody waste of Henry Cavill, and for reasons no-one can adequately explain.

Go back to the core of each character. Not the edgiest interpretation. Let Superman be The Big Blue Boy Scout. The one humanity looks up to.

I think it comes to alot of stories forgetting the Dynamic of Clark and superman.
Batman identifies as Batman, Bruce Wayne is his alter ego
Its kinda the opposite for superman. Clark Kent is the real entity, while Superman is more of a show he puts on. Clark does believe in the stuff Superman says, he isnt lying, but its a show where its turned up to 11.
Every recent superman movie has focused on only superman and barely Clark as a character. That is the problem
Supergirl and Lois and Clark got him right IMO


In the comics, it's been both at different times. The big change happened at the Crisis. The Silver and Bronze Age Supes used bumbling Clark as a cover for his true, Kryptonian god identity. After the Crisis, he became Clark, the son of Jonathan and Martha first, with Superman being something he wears at times.

I'd say Man of Steel is the first post-Crisis, Clark-first version we've seen on the big screen. He explicitly doesn't want to be an alien with superpowers, and his arc in movie is about him accepting his Kryptonian heritage and responsibility. Lois and Clark previously did it on TV as you pointed out. But Chris Reeve's version was very much in the Silver/Bronze age tradition, and then Superman Returns unfortunately kept that going even though it wasn't a modern take anymore. I still maintain that MoS suffered a little bit because it had to break some of the eggs that Superman Returns didn't.



Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/05 16:16:20


Post by: LunarSol


 hotsauceman1 wrote:

I think it comes to alot of stories forgetting the Dynamic of Clark and superman.
Batman identifies as Batman, Bruce Wayne is his alter ego
Its kinda the opposite for superman. Clark Kent is the real entity, while Superman is more of a show he puts on. Clark does believe in the stuff Superman says, he isnt lying, but its a show where its turned up to 11.
Every recent superman movie has focused on only superman and barely Clark as a character. That is the problem
Supergirl and Lois and Clark got him right IMO


As much as I like Tarentino, the Kill Bill speech definitely further derailed the character for a lot of people. Superman can do anything; he doesn't have any material wants. All of his real conflicts are emotional.

He doesn't tell Lois who he is because he wants Lois to love Clark Kent.

His pride is in his writing more than any of his world saving feats because that kind of success is proof of people accepting his thoughts and ideas and personality. The real Clark.

He's insecure as Clark because he's putting his true self out there and fully aware of how painful that kind of rejection is.

He fundamentally takes no pride in his physical talents because he has no means of connecting with others at that level. His bonds are formed at the emotional and intellectual levels. The things that make him human.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/05 16:54:02


Post by: Flinty


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
As a wider consideration of Streets Closed For Filming, the exact location is going to matter too.

Cockburn Street for instance is the quickest way from Waverley Station up to the Royal Mile, via Fleshmarket Close. And it has various pubs and food places. If that bit is closed off, the businesses lose more foot traffic than you might think, as folk arriving at the station would need to go over George IVth Bridge.


Hah! also the quickest route to a heart attack... those stairs! Royal Mile properties are amazing in that you go in on one side straight from the street, and you're on the 6th floor on the other side!


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/05 18:53:04


Post by: Turnip Jedi


Having been out for the evening stroll a dose of direct sunlight caused my troll brain to think maybe its a PR bait and switch and WB suits will cater to fans demands (this demand doesnt really need to happen either), way more buzz than a handful of 2/3 star reviews and a handful of "grrl super powa" articles


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/05 19:05:51


Post by: warhead01


 Turnip Jedi wrote:
Having been out for the evening stroll a dose of direct sunlight caused my troll brain to think maybe its a PR bait and switch and WB suits will cater to fans demands (this demand doesnt really need to happen either), way more buzz than a handful of 2/3 star reviews and a handful of "grrl super powa" articles


I'd believe that based on the huge number of comic movie face book shills I am bombarded with daily. "Fans demand bal bla bla." and the comments are usually mostly in the opposite direction but these adds persist. It feels like they are manufacturing an opinion by simply stating many people want X. Even of no one really does. The same with all the outrage headlines, which for some reason have not gone away and I've never seen proof they work in a positive.

I thought Michael Keaton was going to be in this Bat lady movie. If he was then I hope he had a good contract and got paid.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/05 20:19:06


Post by: gorgon


 warhead01 wrote:
 Turnip Jedi wrote:
Having been out for the evening stroll a dose of direct sunlight caused my troll brain to think maybe its a PR bait and switch and WB suits will cater to fans demands (this demand doesnt really need to happen either), way more buzz than a handful of 2/3 star reviews and a handful of "grrl super powa" articles


I'd believe that based on the huge number of comic movie face book shills I am bombarded with daily. "Fans demand bal bla bla." and the comments are usually mostly in the opposite direction but these adds persist. It feels like they are manufacturing an opinion by simply stating many people want X. Even of no one really does. The same with all the outrage headlines, which for some reason have not gone away and I've never seen proof they work in a positive.

I thought Michael Keaton was going to be in this Bat lady movie. If he was then I hope he had a good contract and got paid.


The 'outrage' reading seems to be much higher in this case than the 'actual interest in this movie' reading ever was.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/05 20:25:39


Post by: warhead01


 gorgon wrote:
 warhead01 wrote:
 Turnip Jedi wrote:
Having been out for the evening stroll a dose of direct sunlight caused my troll brain to think maybe its a PR bait and switch and WB suits will cater to fans demands (this demand doesnt really need to happen either), way more buzz than a handful of 2/3 star reviews and a handful of "grrl super powa" articles


I'd believe that based on the huge number of comic movie face book shills I am bombarded with daily. "Fans demand bal bla bla." and the comments are usually mostly in the opposite direction but these adds persist. It feels like they are manufacturing an opinion by simply stating many people want X. Even of no one really does. The same with all the outrage headlines, which for some reason have not gone away and I've never seen proof they work in a positive.

I thought Michael Keaton was going to be in this Bat lady movie. If he was then I hope he had a good contract and got paid.


The 'outrage' reading seems to be much higher in this case than the 'actual interest in this movie' reading ever was.


I think you're probably right. I'm just disgusted at having all of that shown to me because BF thinks it's a good idea. They're doing the same kind of thing with the flash. I think it's more a case that no one actually cares so they're whipping the algo to get people to care. I expected nothing from Bat lady but haring Keaton was going to be back as Batman for some reason sounded like it might be worth my time just for that, he's my favorite Batman. Although they probably rolled him out to kill him off or something equally dumb.



Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/06 02:36:19


Post by: H.B.M.C.


So, part 3:




More details over the Batgirl cancellation.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

Also is Vin Diesel
Who has a cause in his contract he can never lose a fight in any films he is in.
So the fights will be boring.
It's worse than that. Both him and The Rock have contract requirements on the amount of times they can take hits during fights.

Unless that's apocrypha, but given that the rest is true...

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Supergirl and Lois and Clark got him right IMO
Supergirl treated Superman like a jobber in WWE.

Superman & Lois is what gets Superman right, as the biggest problems he faces are the ones he can't punch or laser-eye his way out of.



Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/07 03:41:11


Post by: nels1031


I didn’t even know a Batgirl movie was even planned, let alone already done filming. I heard nothing about it until this thread and other assorted geek media tubers and sites reported.

Probably a wise choice, since the new leadership will probably not want any stinkers from the previous regime falling on their shoulders.

Distressing to hear the HBO Max stuff, as I feel its the best streaming service out there for my tastes.

Edit: Looked into the HBO Max thing found this interesting quote thats allayed my fears (so far):

As far as other changes, kids and family programming is no longer a priority for the new company. CFO Gunnar Wiedenfels mentioned on the earnings call that they are unlikely to pursue new projects, although the company has a library of content from "Looney Tunes" to "Animaniacs."

Zaslav also addressed worries that HBO will cut back on the number of shows it produces. "We’re going to spend significantly more on the HBO Max product," he said. "We're going to spend more money on content. We're a content company." (He did not elaborate on whether that means fewer but costlier shows).


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/07 06:09:54


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


I’m hopeful the pending reboot is going to take a leaf from Spider-man Homecoming and skip the bloody origin story.

We the audience know Supes is Kryptonian. We know Batman is a spoiled rich boy who enjoys beating up the poor (that’s bait ) etc, so we really don’t need that tale telling again, just as we didn’t need to see Peter Parker get bitten and lose his Uncle and be told great power great responsibility.

And pleeeeeease don’t go the Dark and Poopy route. You’ve tried that with….mixed results. Let them be heroic. I mean, consider the bit in Avengers Assemble, where Cap gives the Policeman orders. Policeman sort of scoffs, asking who Cap is to give orders. Cap immediately kicks ass, Cop Follows Cap’s plan.

Batman can do that. Superman can certainly do that. No branding criminals. No Bat-tank with illegal, lethal weapons. No flying through buildings and trashing the city. No Maaaaarthaaaa “your Mom has the same name as my Mom we should stop fighting and party because clearly that makes us like brothers and stuff I like Pogs do you collect Pogs my Pog collection is great I bet it’s bigger than your Pog collection” tripe.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/07 17:17:54


Post by: hotsauceman1


Im taking the bait.
We could do a batman that takes off of that. What is a superhero now that we as a society are more sympathetic towards people comitteing low-level crime?
Maybe batman starts off like that, fighting the same crime that killed his family, petty low level crime. He grew up surrounded by people who exploit the poor and thought nothing of it. Funds a police force that foucuses on the low level crime.
But as he grows to realize that crime is a symptom, not a cause. A symptom of the corruption and exploitation of Gotham ruling upper crust. And that is how he starts tackling problems systematically
Then he teams up with poison IVy to kill them all with plants IDK, im not a writer.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/07 21:20:42


Post by: Lance845


Well, Batman does very specifically fund social initiatives and programs to deal with the issues that create crime to begin with.

There is a story where it is revealed that he has all these black boxes in the underground power network. They boost and reinforce the network in the city so that the poorer areas don't suffer black outs and gak (while also allowing him to disable cameras and such so he can't be tracked).

I think The Batman is the movie that got Batmans early years the most right. He realizes just going after criminals doesn't work. He needs to do and be more to make an actual change. Don't just chase symptoms but address root cause.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/07 23:07:49


Post by: trexmeyer


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Batman can do that. Superman can certainly do that. No branding criminals. No Bat-tank with illegal, lethal weapons. No flying through buildings and trashing the city. No Maaaaarthaaaa “your Mom has the same name as my Mom we should stop fighting and party because clearly that makes us like brothers and stuff I like Pogs do you collect Pogs my Pog collection is great I bet it’s bigger than your Pog collection” tripe.


The Martha line was corny, but it was about Superman being humanized in Batman's eyes, not them being brothers. The name simply got his attention and he realized that Superman has real human connections/relationships and empathy.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/08 03:14:51


Post by: Just Tony


trexmeyer wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:


Batman can do that. Superman can certainly do that. No branding criminals. No Bat-tank with illegal, lethal weapons. No flying through buildings and trashing the city. No Maaaaarthaaaa “your Mom has the same name as my Mom we should stop fighting and party because clearly that makes us like brothers and stuff I like Pogs do you collect Pogs my Pog collection is great I bet it’s bigger than your Pog collection” tripe.


The Martha line was corny, but it was about Superman being humanized in Batman's eyes, not them being brothers. The name simply got his attention and he realized that Superman has real human connections/relationships and empathy.


I think you and I are the only people on the planet that got that...


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/08 12:00:21


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Im taking the bait.
We could do a batman that takes off of that. What is a superhero now that we as a society are more sympathetic towards people comitteing low-level crime?
Maybe batman starts off like that, fighting the same crime that killed his family, petty low level crime. He grew up surrounded by people who exploit the poor and thought nothing of it. Funds a police force that foucuses on the low level crime.
But as he grows to realize that crime is a symptom, not a cause. A symptom of the corruption and exploitation of Gotham ruling upper crust. And that is how he starts tackling problems systematically
Then he teams up with poison IVy to kill them all with plants IDK, im not a writer.


That’d be a much better take on it for sure. And be the common ground Supes finds with Bats, given Batman does largely break the law when taking down criminals (I mean, he gives a kicking well beyond the realms of Reasonable Force).

Show that Bruce Wayne isn’t just a spoiled angry brat. That he is trying to make the difference to stop folk turning to crime. Perhaps leave some ambiguity as to whether Batman gets a kick out of the kicking he dishes out.

Go for a Cap/Iron Man dynamic ala the MCU. The Futurist vs The Man Out Of Time was somewhat underplayed, but it is there as a constant thread running through the various movies. Checks and balances on each other. Both parties blinkered in their own ways, but together tending to make competent calls.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/08 13:36:42


Post by: LunarSol


 Lance845 wrote:

I think The Batman is the movie that got Batmans early years the most right. He realizes just going after criminals doesn't work. He needs to do and be more to make an actual change. Don't just chase symptoms but address root cause.


The Batman is a Bruce Wayne origin story.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/09 01:15:33


Post by: ccs


 Just Tony wrote:


The Martha line was corny, but it was about Superman being humanized in Batman's eyes, not them being brothers. The name simply got his attention and he realized that Superman has real human connections/relationships and empathy.


I think you and I are the only people on the planet that got that...


You're not.
That I (and others) understood the aim didn't change the fact it was poor writing in a fairly crap movie. Or that it deserves to be mocked.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/09 07:07:41


Post by: Just Tony


But it wasn't, and it doesn't. Let's be real here, the DC films get mocked more for not being Marvel films than they do anything else. It's also funny when some Marvel films have the same flaws as some DC films they get a pass when the DC films get eviscerated. Most of the complaining about those movies have been Flanderized to the point that they don't even register with the actual faults they call out.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/09 08:27:32


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Seems Ezra Miller is in the poo again. This time charged with felony burglary….


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/09 08:44:25


Post by: Inquisitor Gideon


 Just Tony wrote:
But it wasn't, and it doesn't. Let's be real here, the DC films get mocked more for not being Marvel films than they do anything else. It's also funny when some Marvel films have the same flaws as some DC films they get a pass when the DC films get eviscerated. Most of the complaining about those movies have been Flanderized to the point that they don't even register with the actual faults they call out.


It really was. I remember being at the cinema and when that line dropped, a good portion of the viewers burst out in laughter. It was bad. And the majority of DC movies get mocked is because they are bloody awful.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/09 10:21:32


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Just Tony wrote:
Let's be real here, the DC films get mocked more for not being Marvel films than they do anything else.
That's not why they get mocked.

DC tried to sprint before they could crawl, and paid the price. There's a reason why they need the dreaded Axe of Zaslav to get things back on track.



Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/09 10:28:48


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


DC get mocked for not only missing the point of their characters, but some woeful miscasting (Jared Leto. Why anyone ever hires him, given he’s entirely devoid of charisma and talent, I don’t know).

Remember. The MCU took a bunch of characters relatively unknown to General Public, and worked with that. They got actors who fit the roles and convince in them.

When a new MCU film comes out, we ask the question “will it be as good as X”, where X is another film in the stable seen a close fit to the expected tone.

DCEU? People ask “oh god tell it’ll be better than Justice League” etc.

Man of Steel for instance is….boring. That’s a pretty cardinal sin for any movie, but especially when you’re trying to get the same level of Audience love as your rival. And when we’re bored, we nit pick, because you’ve provided nothing to distract us. Example? Why did Zod insist Lois Lane be taken on his ship? Seemingly just so Russel Crowe could bust her out of Super Prison, to move the plodding, dull, achingly boring plot along. At the arthritic pace of a three legged donkey dragging a meteorite shackled to its leg uphill.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/09 11:58:13


Post by: A.T.


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
DC get mocked for not only missing the point of their characters, but some woeful miscasting (Jared Leto. Why anyone ever hires him, given he’s entirely devoid of charisma and talent, I don’t know)
Well, there is Morbius...


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/09 12:31:25


Post by: Slipspace


 Just Tony wrote:
But it wasn't, and it doesn't. Let's be real here, the DC films get mocked more for not being Marvel films than they do anything else. It's also funny when some Marvel films have the same flaws as some DC films they get a pass when the DC films get eviscerated. Most of the complaining about those movies have been Flanderized to the point that they don't even register with the actual faults they call out.

The DC films get mocked for generally not being very good. Wonder Woman is pretty well-liked, so it's hardly a universal anti-DC thing. There have been a bunch of Marvel movies that have also been critically slated - Thor 2 and Iron Man 3 spring immediately to mind - so there's hardly universal love for that franchise either.

The Martha line is just bad writing. I don't think the problem is people not understanding the human connection angle. It's how ham-fisted it is.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/09 12:46:59


Post by: H.B.M.C.


A.T. wrote:
Well, there is Morbius...
Sony's so-called Spiderverse is another example of a studio trying to have a cinematic universe without spending enough time planning it out.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/09 14:34:34


Post by: gorgon


Slipspace wrote:
The DC films get mocked for generally not being very good. Wonder Woman is pretty well-liked, so it's hardly a universal anti-DC thing. There have been a bunch of Marvel movies that have also been critically slated - Thor 2 and Iron Man 3 spring immediately to mind - so there's hardly universal love for that franchise either.

The Martha line is just bad writing. I don't think the problem is people not understanding the human connection angle. It's how ham-fisted it is.


I'm gonna try to inject some nuance into the Martha thing. I don't think it's bad storytelling...the scene could have worked. The issue was with the script and director's execution, IMO. The scene is too drawn out and over the top with the flashbacks and "Martha" being whispered and repeated over and over. If it's cleaner and shorter, it works just fine, I think. Roughly like this:

CLARK: Find...Martha...Kent...

BRUCE: (hesitates) What? What did you say?!?

CLARK: You have to save...Martha..Kent...

BRUCE (quietly): Martha?

LOIS (throwing herself between BRUCE and CLARK): It's his mother. They're going to kill her!

BRUCE steps back...a long pause. Then, his fever breaking, he throws the spear away in disgust...


There's a little bit of hamfist anytime you're making heroes fight. Civil War had similar issues. Of course, this scene would be set up better if Bruce tells Clark during the fight that he probably doesn't even have real parents, being an alien test tube, etc. As is, Bruce tells Clark that his parents probably told him he was put here for a reason, but then seems surprised to find out he has a mom...?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 H.B.M.C. wrote:
A.T. wrote:
Well, there is Morbius...
Sony's so-called Spiderverse is another example of a studio trying to have a cinematic universe without spending enough time planning it out.


Again, a little nuance...IMO, WB's problem wasn't with the number of movies before the teamup film or a lack of a plan. They just didn't give themselves enough actual time between films to course-correct when BvS was so divisive, and put too much in Snyder's hands. So it ended up that giant gakshow as the studio tried to course-correct with a JL movie already in production. Marvel had time between films to figure out what worked (Iron Man) and what didn't (Incredible Hulk).

If WB and Zaslev are smart and take their time, of course they can make good films and a good universe.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/09 14:48:28


Post by: Toofast


 Thargrim wrote:
beast_gts wrote:
Probably related:

HBO Max is expected to layoff around 70% of their development staff.

“Sounds like they’re not doing HBO Max scripted shows anymore with HBO taking over, so less scripted shows overall,” says one company insider.

(Source: https://thewrap.com/hbo-max-layoffs-warner-bros-discovery-q2-earnings-preview/)


This doesn't bode well for that hbo max Dune spinoff show they were working on, might be canned now, bummer.


If the movie is any indication, I'm fine with that. I couldn't summarize the plot if you gave me $1 million. It just seemed like a bunch of random scenes spliced together.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/09 15:15:35


Post by: Flinty


The plot is easy to summarise. Spice is valuable, political machinations over who controls it.

The problem, as you say, is getting a comprehensible 2 hours (6 hours I guess over the two films) out of over 400 pages of pretty dense world building, character building and action scenes just in the 1st book.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/09 15:57:26


Post by: LunarSol


DC's problems are kind of numerous. A lot of it comes from the comics themselves. It's a pretty great universe, but the crossovers thrive on character relationships that have decades of history that really doesn't condense all that well. The stories that DC are most famous for are almost exclusively non-crossover in nature. Either solo stories about their characters in a bubble or more often than not, gritty deconstructions that are by their nature, unsustainable as an ongoing story.

You get a lot of people, Snyder being chief among them, that are fans of the deconstruction, but don't have an appreciation for the base. They see the deconstruction as the substance and the result is kind of doomed characters that never get the chance to rise above stories that are often fundamentally about failed heroes. That's fine for one off tales, but it doesn't creating a lasting universe to keep telling stories in.



Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/09 16:02:35


Post by: Casualty


If WB and Zaslev are smart and take their time, of course they can make good films and a good universe.


There's nothing to suggest WB are smart or that Zaslav cares about making anything good.

Zaslav is also on record dismissing scripted tv as obsolete and too expensive, and the company under his charge seems to be developing a nasty habit of telling porkies.

I don't know why anyone is taking the reassuring noises about og HBO seriously. I will be very surprised if it still meaningfully exists by the time he flees the scene with a bag marked with dollar signs.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/10 03:10:56


Post by: ccs


 Just Tony wrote:
But it wasn't, and it doesn't.


Ok, you go on thinking that....



Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/10 04:28:08


Post by: bbb


Comparing the MCU to the DCEU:

MCU
Spoiler:

Phase One - 6 movies / 4 years
2008 - 2 movies
2010 - 1 movie
2011 - 2 movies
2012 - 1 movie - first big crossover

Phase Two - 6 movies / 3 years
2013 - 2 movies
2014 - 2 movies
2015 - 2 movies - second big crossover

Phase Three - 11 movies / 4 years
2016 - 2 movies - third big crossover
2017 - 3 movies
2018 - 3 movies - fourth big crossover
2019 - 3 movies - fifth big crossover

Pandemic Pause

Phase Four - 7 movies / 2 years / 8 tv seasons
2021 - 4 movies / 5 tv seasons
2022 - 3 movies / 3 tv seasons


DCEU
Spoiler:

Phase One Big Unfocused Mess
2013 - 1 movie
2016 - 2 movies - first big crossover
2017 - 2 movies - second big crossover
2018 - 1 movie
2019 - 1 movie
2020 - 2 movies
2021 - 1 movie


So, while Marvel has cranked out a TON of material so far overall, after releasing 2 movies and doing well in 2008 they took a year off and were able to plan out the rest of Phase One. Over the course of 4 years they released 6 movies which culminated with a big crossover that audiences went crazy for because they fell in love with characters and were consistently entertained with the previous movies. They kept their foot on the accelerator and increased the amount of content every phase and have consistently tried to make movies that appeal to as wide an audience as possible.

DC released a bleak Superman movie in 2013 then took 3 years to release a bleak crossover between the two biggest comic book characters ever (with an appearance by a third). They also released a bleak movie about bad guys that year. They followed up that with an okay, but not great Wonder Woman movie and then the first ever mega DC crossover movie... that no one was really excited about.

Justice League made 229 million domestic / 658 million worldwide. Suicide Squad made more than it domestically and internationally...

TWENTY MCU movies made more than JL in the US
EIGHTEEN MCU movies made more than JL globally

The DCEU has consistently been underprepared and unfocused and has made movies with limited appeal that have not made audiences fall in love with the characters. It's been a giant unfun unlikeable mess.




Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/10 08:58:28


Post by: Slipspace


 LunarSol wrote:
You get a lot of people, Snyder being chief among them, that are fans of the deconstruction, but don't have an appreciation for the base. They see the deconstruction as the substance and the result is kind of doomed characters that never get the chance to rise above stories that are often fundamentally about failed heroes. That's fine for one off tales, but it doesn't creating a lasting universe to keep telling stories in.

The audience also has to understand the character before a deconstruction can really be successful. Deconstructing a character without that grounding in who they are (or think they are/should be) doesn't work. Theoretically you could rely on an audience's preconceived ideas of characters like Batman and Superman because they're famous pop culture icons. DCs problem is it keeps changing its style and actors for these two iconic characters so audiences are never quite sure which version they're supposed to be dealing with.

Marvel decided which version of each character they were going to go with and stuck to it. Any changes to those characters have been naturally developed over the course of the movies. They also seem to have had the financial foresight to make sure contracts for the actors allowed them to keep using the same actors throughout the length of the plan. I still don't know if Ben Affleck is playing the same Batman as Christian Bale, though I assume not. There's only so many times you can reset a character before audiences get bored and annoyed.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/10 10:05:34


Post by: Gitzbitah


The MCU really is this incredibly well managed and scripted beast that rises above the sum of its parts. Most of the movies are of at least good quality, they maintain quite a bit of variety, but what makes them so successful is that they really built on each other, and built into each other from the planning stage. That's created an ecosystem almost, where you'll watch She-Hulk because Daredevil's in it, or Ms. Marvel because Captain Marvel's in it. The cameos and perpetual crossovers, major and minor, mean any fan of one of those characters is likely to try anything from the MCU because there's probably something in there for them to like- even if it is a character they don't care about. The DC verse is still trying to get this to work- understandably so!

Barring sprawling scifi franchises like Star Trek and Wars, this has never been done before. So a good and entertaining DC film has to rise above a good and entertaining Marvel film plus all of the interested Marvel fans checking it out, a task that gets harder every year. Aquaman was pretty good- but it really didn't set anything up, or tie in to anything else. Simply knowing that the individual films can be taken or left means your audience numbers will be lower. MCU fans literally can't skip anything, because if they do they'll have to go back and watch several movies and a tv series or two to get the full glory of the next film starring their major character.

The closest thing DC has done, is wisely doubled down on characters that work. Harley quinn almost has a pocket Harleyverse going on, and James Gunn is busily crafting a suicide squadverse. This is all reactive though, when a project works they pump out sequels and tie ins- but there still isn't an overarching plan.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/10 17:53:13


Post by: gorgon


Casualty wrote:
If WB and Zaslev are smart and take their time, of course they can make good films and a good universe.


There's nothing to suggest WB are smart or that Zaslav cares about making anything good.

Zaslav is also on record dismissing scripted tv as obsolete and too expensive, and the company under his charge seems to be developing a nasty habit of telling porkies.

I don't know why anyone is taking the reassuring noises about og HBO seriously. I will be very surprised if it still meaningfully exists by the time he flees the scene with a bag marked with dollar signs.


Eh, I dunno. WB has had a good string of DC films that have either been very profitable or critical successes or both. And the buzz is that most of the stuff in the pipeline is still coming. It's the overall plan that's in question.

Time will tell what the Zaslev effect is, but he's not wrong that the current plan is kinda fethed up. In the film space, their two biggest superhero IPs are either completely stalled (Superman) or successful but walled off from the rest of the universe (The Batman) and unable to be leveraged to its maximum.

Meanwhile HBO Max was working on $80 million(!) streaming-only films like Batgirl that were in the no-man's-land of very pricey for streaming but not at a quality level for a theatrical release. Blue Beetle got a bump up to theatrical with a budget bump to match, and it seems to be safe. Spending on series makes a lot more sense for streaming, and most of those are apparently moving forward also.

I can't read Zaslev's mind, but to me it's not about the spend but where you're making the spend. And some of that wasn't making sense to me either. *shrug*


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/10 18:13:56


Post by: LunarSol


That's kind of the curse of Batman though. To fit in with the Justice League he kind of gets increasingly scaled up to the point where his struggles in Gotham lose a lot of their grounded, detective noir appeal. It's not that it can't work, but it does require a good suspension of disbelief or an escalation of his Gotham villains that kind of robs them of their personality in order to make them compete with that level of Bats.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/10 19:29:05


Post by: Lance845


I think its important to note that WB, DC and Time Warner have gone though 3 or 4 major shake ups in leadership and structure since Superman came out.

The biggest shake ups for Marvel were the acquisition by Disney and Kevin taking charge from Perlmutter and the council.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/10 20:24:42


Post by: gorgon


 LunarSol wrote:
That's kind of the curse of Batman though. To fit in with the Justice League he kind of gets increasingly scaled up to the point where his struggles in Gotham lose a lot of their grounded, detective noir appeal. It's not that it can't work, but it does require a good suspension of disbelief or an escalation of his Gotham villains that kind of robs them of their personality in order to make them compete with that level of Bats.


I'm actually okay with a very loose universe with most characters more or less in their own world with some minor crossover. That was the plan a couple years ago, and I think it works better for a studio like WB. But that's not what they want now, even before Zaslev came on board. This gak will give you whiplash.

And it doesn't excuse the Superman situation. It's a premium IP...they need to be making Superman content beyond a CW family drama to sell those t-shirts and action figures and lunchboxes. Cavill's situation is part of the issue, but not really...pay the man and keep him, or don't and reboot. It's actually pretty easy, and they can't seem to figure it out. They had creators like Chris McQuarrie and Matthew Vaughn wanting to make Superman films, but said no while having no actual plans for the character. There should always be a plan for your biggest IPs.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/10 20:43:20


Post by: LunarSol


In a lot of ways Superman has similar problems to Batman. When you taken him out of his element and put him in an environment that largely consists of relative peers, he loses a lot of his storytelling potential. There's no reason for Clark Kent and the kinds of stories that you tell with super teams he just kind of solves on his own.

A lot of it is driven by the executive point of view. They see big payouts from stuff like the Death of Superman, Injustice, The Dark Knight Returns, Red Son, and want it to just happen in film form. It's very similar to how Sony has been wanting to make Venom happen at any cost since the 90's.

One of the big problems with both Sony and WB is they've found success selling the public villains. That's what defines each movie and it definitely works in film structure because it gives your movie a thesis. What it doesn't really do is give you a universe, because the villains can't carry future films. Part of why Marvel works is they sold us the heroes and those are the characters we invest in and return to see more of.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/10 21:15:27


Post by: gorgon


 LunarSol wrote:
In a lot of ways Superman has similar problems to Batman. When you taken him out of his element and put him in an environment that largely consists of relative peers, he loses a lot of his storytelling potential. There's no reason for Clark Kent and the kinds of stories that you tell with super teams he just kind of solves on his own.

A lot of it is driven by the executive point of view. They see big payouts from stuff like the Death of Superman, Injustice, The Dark Knight Returns, Red Son, and want it to just happen in film form. It's very similar to how Sony has been wanting to make Venom happen at any cost since the 90's.

One of the big problems with both Sony and WB is they've found success selling the public villains. That's what defines each movie and it definitely works in film structure because it gives your movie a thesis. What it doesn't really do is give you a universe, because the villains can't carry future films. Part of why Marvel works is they sold us the heroes and those are the characters we invest in and return to see more of.


Well, I'm not really concerned about Superman in the context of a shared universe. It's more the business perspective that you don't shelve him for no apparent reason. I also think the storytelling issues with Superman are largely overblown. And yeah, it feels like WB majorly overthinks Superman at the executive level, worrying about whether he's relatable and what kind of parable a Superman story needs to be. To be clear, I like thoughtful Superman stories quite a bit. I just think one can make a big, dumb, exciting, fun, spectacle Superman film and do really well with it. That's what Marvel would do, and it'd probably clear a billion in box office easily. gak, that's what Wan did with friggin' *Aquaman*, and that cleared a billion.

I heard an interview with Mark Waid where they asked him about the difficulties with writing Superman, and whether the character is relatable, etc. He just laughed and dismissed it. Maybe that's too much of a handwave on his part, but I don't think it's even half as hard as WB is making it.

The executives' best idea was apparently to replace Superman with Supergirl, rather than just reboot. Which to me shows a lack of understanding of Kara Zor-El. She's not a female Kal-El or "Clara" Kent...she's an interesting character in her own right, but one that works better as a kind of counterpoint to Superman, having been raised Kryptonian. Would love to see the character on the big screen, but as part of a well-conceived Superman family and not a shoehorned replacement due to a contract dispute.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/13 23:59:08


Post by: cuda1179


So, now there is controversy because apparently one of the test screenings for Batgirl tested the same as one of the test screenings for Black Adam.

Apparently this isn't exactly the whole truth. They do several test screenings with several different cuts of a film. Basically, Batgirl's best score did in fact test as well as one of the earlier, less popular cuts of Black Adam, but overall Black Adam tested better.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/14 00:35:19


Post by: Lance845


They need to put a definitive power level on Superman and that power level should be the DCAU. He can be hit hard and thrown around. He isn't so fast it's insane. He is tough. Fast. Strong. But beatable.

Superman in the Adventures of Superman and Justice League cartoons is peak Superman.

Just like it's peak Batman. And it's why they can both be in their own shows, the justice league, and have cross over episodes with each other and have it all completely work.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/14 04:02:23


Post by: Just Tony


 cuda1179 wrote:
So, now there is controversy because apparently one of the test screenings for Batgirl tested the same as one of the test screenings for Black Adam.

Apparently this isn't exactly the whole truth. They do several test screenings with several different cuts of a film. Basically, Batgirl's best score did in fact test as well as one of the earlier, less popular cuts of Black Adam, but overall Black Adam tested better.


The controversy is in the fact that they have a nice political drum to beat even if their accusations are off base, nothing more.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/14 04:04:49


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 cuda1179 wrote:
So, now there is controversy because apparently one of the test screenings for Batgirl tested the same as one of the test screenings for Black Adam.

Apparently this isn't exactly the whole truth. They do several test screenings with several different cuts of a film. Basically, Batgirl's best score did in fact test as well as one of the earlier, less popular cuts of Black Adam, but overall Black Adam tested better.
Wouldn't make any difference.

Black Adam cost significantly more to make than Batgirl, is finished, was made for the big screen and not a streaming-only release, and has The Rock. The return on investment is likely to be quite a bit different.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/14 04:25:59


Post by: gorgon


 Lance845 wrote:
They need to put a definitive power level on Superman and that power level should be the DCAU. He can be hit hard and thrown around. He isn't so fast it's insane. He is tough. Fast. Strong. But beatable.

Superman in the Adventures of Superman and Justice League cartoons is peak Superman.

Just like it's peak Batman. And it's why they can both be in their own shows, the justice league, and have cross over episodes with each other and have it all completely work.


I don't think Superman's power level is really a big problem. The DCEU version is clearly a power downgrade from the Superman Returns version where he lifted a small continent WITH kryptonite poisoning him. I don't think anyone is looking to make movies with a Silver/Bronze Age level Superman where he pushed whole planets and such.

Besides, he has no shortage of villains who can challenge him. The Justice League has extremely powerful villains who can challenge him and them too. And GL, WW, Flash and MM have no shortage of power and fit pretty well alongside Superman's power level. The writing problem is Batman. But if Marvel can make Black Widow and Hawkeye work alongside Iron Man and particularly Thor, I don't see why DC can't make Batman in the JL work in the movies. Just gotta give him very different stuff to do, like be the team general and ninja. Personally, I don't think it makes sense to downgrade the whole rest of the JL for Batman's sake. Let them the rest of them be amazing, it's what I think most DC fans want to see on film.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/14 12:20:17


Post by: Lance845


 gorgon wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
They need to put a definitive power level on Superman and that power level should be the DCAU. He can be hit hard and thrown around. He isn't so fast it's insane. He is tough. Fast. Strong. But beatable.

Superman in the Adventures of Superman and Justice League cartoons is peak Superman.

Just like it's peak Batman. And it's why they can both be in their own shows, the justice league, and have cross over episodes with each other and have it all completely work.


I don't think Superman's power level is really a big problem. The DCEU version is clearly a power downgrade from the Superman Returns version where he lifted a small continent WITH kryptonite poisoning him. I don't think anyone is looking to make movies with a Silver/Bronze Age level Superman where he pushed whole planets and such.

Besides, he has no shortage of villains who can challenge him. The Justice League has extremely powerful villains who can challenge him and them too. And GL, WW, Flash and MM have no shortage of power and fit pretty well alongside Superman's power level. The writing problem is Batman. But if Marvel can make Black Widow and Hawkeye work alongside Iron Man and particularly Thor, I don't see why DC can't make Batman in the JL work in the movies. Just gotta give him very different stuff to do, like be the team general and ninja. Personally, I don't think it makes sense to downgrade the whole rest of the JL for Batman's sake. Let them the rest of them be amazing, it's what I think most DC fans want to see on film.


Thor could be knocked around, beat up, and killed in pretty much every avengers movie. Granted, Loki isn't as great a fighter as him to it was unlikely. But Ultron and Thanos were both very real problems for every person involved.

Superman versus Steppenwolf. Not only could the rest of the justice league barely distract him and had to run the entire time they were dealing with him, but superman himself could take him out casually. Not breaking a sweat. Just kind of taking his time to do it because why rush?

DCEU Superman is way too powerful for the rest of the JL.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/14 16:06:14


Post by: Ahtman


Parasite. Metallo. Mongul. Lobo. Darkseid. Doomsday. Amazo.

Moving away from physical you also have Lex Luthor, Mister Mxyzptlk, and Bruce Wayne.

Edit: Not disagreeing about power levels in JL, just pointing out he does have enemies that can smack him around. In general I've never really liked Batman and Superman being shoved together as they are radically different types of stories and power levels. Still, the better Superman stories/moments don't rely on his god like power.

Oh, I guess because of the Doomsday Clock we can add Dr. Manhattan to the list.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/14 16:33:23


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


But then, what situations can involve Superman in a team can’t simply be resolved by him being him with his speed, strength, laser eyes, frost breath, flight, invulnerability etc?


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/14 16:36:16


Post by: Lance845


Lex Luther of the DCEU is a lunatic making odd little noises while being a complete psychopath. He is no actual threat to Superman. Or... anyone. Except easy to manipulate paranoid Bruce Wayne.

Doomsday has already come and gone.

Mongul and Lobo are going to be on par with Steppenwolf at best in terms of power.

Metallo and Parasite have something there. But we have seen how little effect kryptonite actually has on DCEU Superman.

Darkseid could pose a threat to him, but where does that place everyone else?

Again the issue here is the divide between supes and everyone else and thus the divide between anything that could threaten supes and everyone else. The justice league are not a team. They are a liability while Superman handles everything.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/14 16:54:59


Post by: Ahtman


The DCEU as it is barely is a thing and shoddy so I don't think we should use it as the only measure of the how things could be handled.

Though looking at the new CEO the truly sad part is that as problematic as their half-assed attempt at the cinematic universe have been it could get worse.

I do like that I explicitly agreed that the power level was an issue but you went on a rant about how it is about how his power level is a problem.

Person A: I think B might be right.

Person B: NO! I'm right and I will say it again why!


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/14 17:06:27


Post by: Lance845


I didn't "Go on a rant". I addressed the examples you gave.



Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/14 17:19:50


Post by: Ahtman


 Lance845 wrote:
I addressed the examples you gave.


Within a very limited context ignoring that it was just general listing of enemies that can fight Superman not a list of DCEU only uses. Then you went on to reiterate the exact position you presented and was generally agreed on already. Even if it wasn't intended to be one it comes across as a petty rejoinder.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/14 18:15:04


Post by: Lance845


Sure. Whatever you want man. Lets start this bit over.

In the movies supermans power level is too high. It needs to be closer to DCAU where superman can be knocked around so anyone else in the universe makes sense to be in the fight at the same time as him.

The JL makes sense in the DCAU and doesn't in the DCEU because of Supes power level.

Now, if you want to respond to that with a list of villains that can give superman a run for his money, i am going to reiterate my point while refuting them. If you instead want to respond to my point, we could probably have a conversation.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/14 18:32:14


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


I think we also need to keep in mind with this sort of topic is the films need to find an audience beyond Us Nerds.

This is something the MCU has done quite nicely. Sure Cap and Hulk were kind of in the public consciousness, but I don’t think we can really say the same about any of the others.

The DCEU however has gone for their best known properties, but kind of obscure versions by the public’s knowledge of these things.

Most folk knew Batman from the 60’s TV series and 80’s/90’s movies. Superman was Christopher Reeve and to some extent Christopher Reeve was Superman.

Doing a new Batman so soon after the Nolan movies was arguably Too Soon. And “dork and grotty” Superman was I fear a step way too far.

Again compare to the MCU. It took time to introduce us to their take on the characters, and there were things in there to tickle the knowledge pickle of long term fans - without making those things the focus, or requiring the audience to really know anything about them.

And as they rolled out the movies, they introduced more stuff from the comics. Sometimes again as Pickle Ticklers, others as Actual Plot Devices.

For instance, Ultron and Vision. You and I had likely at least heard of Ultron, and had some understanding of what he is, who he is, and why he’s a long running villain (he’s defeatable, but bloody hard to stop). Flawed as it is, Age of Ultron did that. And even introduced the possibility one of his clone bodies survived to host his consciousness, leaving a return open further down the line. Indeed so much was introduced in Age of Ultron that would pay off in the coming movies, my opinion of it as part of the wider tapestry has increased quite considerably.

And I think that’s how you need to do it.

I mean, let’s look at Man of Steel, and the frankly bizarre take on Pa Kent. No son, don’t use your powers because Gubmint.

Never mind there’s….basically bugger all the Gubmint could do to ever contain Clark/Superman, so his approach makes no sense other than to make Snyder’s Superman lame and edgy.



Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/15 13:39:24


Post by: LunarSol


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

I mean, let’s look at Man of Steel, and the frankly bizarre take on Pa Kent. No son, don’t use your powers because Gubmint.

Never mind there’s….basically bugger all the Gubmint could do to ever contain Clark/Superman, so his approach makes no sense other than to make Snyder’s Superman lame and edgy.


My absolute favorite part of this scene is that when they cut back from the flashback they don't even have the same dog that Pa died saving.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/15 14:40:53


Post by: gorgon


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

I mean, let’s look at Man of Steel, and the frankly bizarre take on Pa Kent. No son, don’t use your powers because Gubmint.

Never mind there’s….basically bugger all the Gubmint could do to ever contain Clark/Superman, so his approach makes no sense other than to make Snyder’s Superman lame and edgy.



I think you're pretty wrong here, and I'm guessing you don't have kids...?

MoS tries to take a grounded (-as-possible) approach to the material. And when you become a parent in real life, protecting them becomes your #1 objective. Basically everything in your life becomes secondary. And you worry pretty much all the time.

Remember that you as the viewer/reader familiar with the character have the benefit of knowing just how powerful he is. Jonathan and Martha know he's tough, strong and fast, but why would *they* think no one can possibly hurt him? Especially when he's younger and his powers ARE weaker. It doesn't matter that he has powers...he's their child and they would be worried sick every time he threw himself into a dangerous situation. And gak, he does actually end up dying at some point.

What's more, they have GOOD REASON to worry about the government swooping in. They found an alien baby in a spaceship in a field (think about that for real), and then probably had to do some fudging and maneuvering in order to be able to adopt this baby they just sorta...found. Whole town knows there's something weird about the kid too. Show off those powers and it'd take just a little bit of investigation to end up at the Kents' front door...and Lois does.*

And let's consider the real world and the times that supposedly benevolent governments have actually done terrible experiments on their own, human citizens. Think the alien that might not be viewed to have ANY civil rights might be at risk of getting cut open? If it was your kid, would you be confident that the government *couldn't* cut him open because he seems immune to injury around a farm?

MoS mostly has a very smart take on what it'd be like to be Jonathan and Martha. The issue comes when Jonathan suggests Clark maybe should let people die rather than expose his powers. It's hard to see how Clark ever gets to be Superman with that kind of advice, so it's really odd it's written that way. That scene is really good otherwise and could be perfect with just a couple word swaps. But that's more or less Zack Snyder for you.

*I actually really like how MoS infers that Smallville kinda knows and is covering for Clark and the Kents. There's something really heartwarming about a whole town knowing one of their own is special and protecting him instead of offering him up. I mean, Pete Ross (at least I think that's who the redheaded kid is) seems to kinda give him up, but Lois seems to already have the story at that point and is just looking to confirm it.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ahtman wrote:
Parasite. Metallo. Mongul. Lobo. Darkseid. Doomsday. Amazo.

Moving away from physical you also have Lex Luthor, Mister Mxyzptlk, and Bruce Wayne.

Edit: Not disagreeing about power levels in JL, just pointing out he does have enemies that can smack him around. In general I've never really liked Batman and Superman being shoved together as they are radically different types of stories and power levels. Still, the better Superman stories/moments don't rely on his god like power.

Oh, I guess because of the Doomsday Clock we can add Dr. Manhattan to the list.


Cyborg Superman, Bizarro, Brainiac, various other Kryptonians, Daxamites, Imperiex, Kalibak, Ultraman, etc.

He's tussled with characters like Vartox and Maxima at times, who are also around his power level.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/15 19:06:16


Post by: Ahtman


 gorgon wrote:
Ultraman


His most powerful foe!



Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/16 02:03:36


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


Wow. Jet Jaguar got a makeover.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/16 02:04:28


Post by: Just Tony


 gorgon wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

I mean, let’s look at Man of Steel, and the frankly bizarre take on Pa Kent. No son, don’t use your powers because Gubmint.

Never mind there’s….basically bugger all the Gubmint could do to ever contain Clark/Superman, so his approach makes no sense other than to make Snyder’s Superman lame and edgy.



I think you're pretty wrong here, and I'm guessing you don't have kids...?

MoS tries to take a grounded (-as-possible) approach to the material. And when you become a parent in real life, protecting them becomes your #1 objective. Basically everything in your life becomes secondary. And you worry pretty much all the time.

Remember that you as the viewer/reader familiar with the character have the benefit of knowing just how powerful he is. Jonathan and Martha know he's tough, strong and fast, but why would *they* think no one can possibly hurt him? Especially when he's younger and his powers ARE weaker. It doesn't matter that he has powers...he's their child and they would be worried sick every time he threw himself into a dangerous situation. And gak, he does actually end up dying at some point.

What's more, they have GOOD REASON to worry about the government swooping in. They found an alien baby in a spaceship in a field (think about that for real), and then probably had to do some fudging and maneuvering in order to be able to adopt this baby they just sorta...found. Whole town knows there's something weird about the kid too. Show off those powers and it'd take just a little bit of investigation to end up at the Kents' front door...and Lois does.*

And let's consider the real world and the times that supposedly benevolent governments have actually done terrible experiments on their own, human citizens. Think the alien that might not be viewed to have ANY civil rights might be at risk of getting cut open? If it was your kid, would you be confident that the government *couldn't* cut him open because he seems immune to injury around a farm?

MoS mostly has a very smart take on what it'd be like to be Jonathan and Martha. The issue comes when Jonathan suggests Clark maybe should let people die rather than expose his powers. It's hard to see how Clark ever gets to be Superman with that kind of advice, so it's really odd it's written that way. That scene is really good otherwise and could be perfect with just a couple word swaps. But that's more or less Zack Snyder for you.

*I actually really like how MoS infers that Smallville kinda knows and is covering for Clark and the Kents. There's something really heartwarming about a whole town knowing one of their own is special and protecting him instead of offering him up. I mean, Pete Ross (at least I think that's who the redheaded kid is) seems to kinda give him up, but Lois seems to already have the story at that point and is just looking to confirm it.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Ahtman wrote:
Parasite. Metallo. Mongul. Lobo. Darkseid. Doomsday. Amazo.

Moving away from physical you also have Lex Luthor, Mister Mxyzptlk, and Bruce Wayne.

Edit: Not disagreeing about power levels in JL, just pointing out he does have enemies that can smack him around. In general I've never really liked Batman and Superman being shoved together as they are radically different types of stories and power levels. Still, the better Superman stories/moments don't rely on his god like power.

Oh, I guess because of the Doomsday Clock we can add Dr. Manhattan to the list.


Cyborg Superman, Bizarro, Brainiac, various other Kryptonians, Daxamites, Imperiex, Kalibak, Ultraman, etc.

He's tussled with characters like Vartox and Maxima at times, who are also around his power level.


How goddamn DARE you, sir. This is the internet, and you are not allowed to see positive aspects of any of Zack Snyder's films.



Because Zack Snyder, apparently...


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/16 10:16:59


Post by: Overread


 gorgon wrote:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

I mean, let’s look at Man of Steel, and the frankly bizarre take on Pa Kent. No son, don’t use your powers because Gubmint.

Never mind there’s….basically bugger all the Gubmint could do to ever contain Clark/Superman, so his approach makes no sense other than to make Snyder’s Superman lame and edgy.



I think you're pretty wrong here, and I'm guessing you don't have kids...?

MoS tries to take a grounded (-as-possible) approach to the material. And when you become a parent in real life, protecting them becomes your #1 objective. Basically everything in your life becomes secondary. And you worry pretty much all the time.

Remember that you as the viewer/reader familiar with the character have the benefit of knowing just how powerful he is. Jonathan and Martha know he's tough, strong and fast, but why would *they* think no one can possibly hurt him? Especially when he's younger and his powers ARE weaker. It doesn't matter that he has powers...he's their child and they would be worried sick every time he threw himself into a dangerous situation. And gak, he does actually end up dying at some point.

What's more, they have GOOD REASON to worry about the government swooping in. They found an alien baby in a spaceship in a field (think about that for real), and then probably had to do some fudging and maneuvering in order to be able to adopt this baby they just sorta...found. Whole town knows there's something weird about the kid too. Show off those powers and it'd take just a little bit of investigation to end up at the Kents' front door...and Lois does.*

And let's consider the real world and the times that supposedly benevolent governments have actually done terrible experiments on their own, human citizens. Think the alien that might not be viewed to have ANY civil rights might be at risk of getting cut open? If it was your kid, would you be confident that the government *couldn't* cut him open because he seems immune to injury around a farm?

MoS mostly has a very smart take on what it'd be like to be Jonathan and Martha. The issue comes when Jonathan suggests Clark maybe should let people die rather than expose his powers. It's hard to see how Clark ever gets to be Superman with that kind of advice, so it's really odd it's written that way. That scene is really good otherwise and could be perfect with just a couple word swaps. But that's more or less Zack Snyder for you.

*I actually really like how MoS infers that Smallville kinda knows and is covering for Clark and the Kents. There's something really heartwarming about a whole town knowing one of their own is special and protecting him instead of offering him up. I mean, Pete Ross (at least I think that's who the redheaded kid is) seems to kinda give him up, but Lois seems to already have the story at that point and is just looking to confirm it.



Honestly Man of Steel starts off really well. It just falls apart in the second act because the escalation of events gets so insane so fast. Plus we take this very noble hero and suddenly he's destroying fuel stations and blasting holes through buildings and the collateral damage and people killed through that are never touched upon, yet for his character he should have been utterly horrified at his actions.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/16 10:21:38


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Also the complete lack of any attempt at negotiation, and Supes taking a hologram claiming to be his Dad, who he couldn’t possibly remember, at face value that Zod is all Evil Bad.

Zod has tech capable of terraforming worlds. Superman has the codex which could ensure his species comes back into being.

Why not even the offer/discussion of “look, I’ll give you what you want. But, we need to collectively sod off elsewhere to get this going. Leave Earth alone, you’ve absolutely no logical reason, other than forcing my hand, to attack it”.

But no. We get lazy hack writing instead.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/16 10:27:09


Post by: Overread


Honestly its like a lot of films - the beginning paces out really well and sets a scene. Then they realise that they've only got 40mins left of the film to squeeze perhaps 2 or 3 films worth of content into it. So not only are things escalating really fast, but we skip huge chunks of story and plot that likely were planned out or drafted.

Suddenly things happen almost as if for no reason; the situation escalates super fast with no brakes; characters appear to become extremely shallow etc....


It's also a little strange when you've a gritty realistic take on Superman but then have to stick to "Zod pure mindless evil" because you've, again, run out of time.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/16 10:35:58


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


Run out of writing and directorial talent and subtlety maybe.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/16 12:08:34


Post by: AduroT


So on Friday/Saturday I was seeing articles saying WB was considering three options for the Flash movie;

A.) Have Ezra publicly apologize and enter therapy and do a PR rehab tour and put out the movie as planned.

B.) Saying they were going to have nothing to do with Ezra moving forward, no promotional tours or anything, basically publicly fire him, but still put out the movie as planned.

C.) Just bin the movie.

Well now today I’m see articles where Ezra is publicly apologizing for his mental health episodes and seeking therapy, so it seems they’ve decided on option A.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/16 12:18:25


Post by: Lance845


He still needs to be arrested and tried for all the thefts, assault, etc etc etc...

Apologizing and going to therapy doesn't excuse you from crime.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/16 12:19:37


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Except he's a Hollywood celebrity. They almost never go to jail.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/16 12:21:08


Post by: Lance845


Yeah, That whole system of non-accountability needs to end.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/16 18:08:03


Post by: Ahtman


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Except he's a Hollywood celebrity. They almost never go to jail.


That isn't exactly unique to "Hollywood".


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/16 19:06:25


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


 Lance845 wrote:
Yeah, That whole system of non-accountability needs to end.


Which is what certain movements are about.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/16 20:15:30


Post by: Lance845


 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
Yeah, That whole system of non-accountability needs to end.


Which is what certain movements are about.


Yeah. Taking too long.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/16 21:08:05


Post by: Turnip Jedi


Fingers crossed we don't have to be subjected to some tedious redemption narrative, blah blah I'm sorry (I got caught) etc, from him, and how much WB rare really willing to lose to "protect the brand" (or is it "winky measuring in the boardroom")


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/16 21:29:52


Post by: gorgon


I predict Miller will do his therapy time and say he's sorry. WB will instruct him to keep quiet for the next year and cross their fingers. Miller won't do the press tour per WB's instruction, citing some personal reason. The movie will be released, make its money, and WB will walk away from him and let the courts do whatever.

And that's the right result. WB isn't going to cancel the film over this and they shouldn't.
I haven't seen other studios give back all the money they made on films that starred or were directed or produced by unscrupulous characters. Sporting leagues, same thing. And quite frankly, Miller's issues aren't at the top of mind of the general public in the way that other celebrity scandals have been. Miller will probably lose his career and that will be that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
Yeah, That whole system of non-accountability needs to end.


Which is what certain movements are about.


Feel like this is different because the legal system is already involved...it's not a case of there being victims that no one is listening to. So let the legal system handle it, as is their job.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/17 02:21:08


Post by: Casualty


 Lance845 wrote:
They need to put a definitive power level on Superman and that power level should be the DCAU. He can be hit hard and thrown around. He isn't so fast it's insane. He is tough. Fast. Strong. But beatable.

Superman in the Adventures of Superman and Justice League cartoons is peak Superman.

Just like it's peak Batman. And it's why they can both be in their own shows, the justice league, and have cross over episodes with each other and have it all completely work.


Batgirl was reported to have only test screened once. We know its score was in the 60s, which is a perfectly fine initial test screening score. Movies with worse scores have been released as-is.

So regardless of Black Adam's test screening reaction, the idea it was scrapped for being "irredeemable" doesn't hold up and doesn't tally with what test screen viewers themselves reported. Black Adam and Shazam are just points of reference.

The "profitability risk" argument is also extremely weak. It's got Michael Keaton's Bruce Wayne in it, they could make money on an assembly cut pushed to petrol pump screens.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/17 06:25:07


Post by: Jadenim


I still think there’s a reasonable chance this is all a marketing stunt, trying to whip up another “Snyder cut” style movement to raise the profile of the film. And if that doesn’t happen, they know most people don’t care (however sad that is), save their marketing budget and grab the tax rebate.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/17 15:34:50


Post by: gorgon


Personally, I think the poor test scores thing is a canard. Studios will release bad films if there's an audience for them. My hunch is that their research showed there just wasn't much interest in Batgirl, which is a very different thing. Math was undoubtedly done based on how many expected new HBO Max subs they'd see, and burying the film and taking the writeoff probably came out ahead.

Who knows what the full Zaslev Effect(TM) will be. But based on what I've read about him, he's a dude with a pretty strong grasp of the financial side. And it's hardly a secret that the streaming services have been spending wildly on content without paying proper attention to returns. They shouldn't have been greenlighting $90 million streaming films in the first place. Or at least not anything that wasn't going to be a real event that would majorly drive people to sign up. The math with series is different because people will stick around for 2-3 months. And the buzz is that the GL series, the Penguin spinoff series, and the second season of Peacemaker are all safe.




Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/17 15:46:51


Post by: Overread


We also can't ignore internal politics as a motivator as well. Remember how Firefly was killed because it got poor viewing scores, but that was a direct result of its release schedule being messed up intentionally - random time slots, out of order release, time slots that competed with major events on other channels - eg sports events.


Who knows this could be another case of someone (or several someones) in key positions throwing up a "it tested poor so can it" purely for internal political reasons.

Or some strange quirk of finances (we'll get more not releasing it than releasing it etc...).

The actual quality of the film and what's produced might be the very least of elements.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/17 16:46:14


Post by: LunarSol


Zaslev's history is fine for making things profitable, but I can't say I'm very impressed with the quality of the content he's been responsible for.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/17 16:48:06


Post by: Just Tony


So, people are still in the early stages of grief? Slip in a few more anti-WOC conspiracy theories despite the number of WB films starring a WOC as a lead...


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/17 18:23:02


Post by: gorgon


 Overread wrote:
We also can't ignore internal politics as a motivator as well. Remember how Firefly was killed because it got poor viewing scores, but that was a direct result of its release schedule being messed up intentionally - random time slots, out of order release, time slots that competed with major events on other channels - eg sports events.


Who knows this could be another case of someone (or several someones) in key positions throwing up a "it tested poor so can it" purely for internal political reasons.

Or some strange quirk of finances (we'll get more not releasing it than releasing it etc...).

The actual quality of the film and what's produced might be the very least of elements.


I'm sure there's an aspect there where Batgirl represents the 'old plan', and so Zaslev and his peeps don't have any qualms about killing it. That kind of thing happens everywhere in every industry.

But I think old and new management were also genuinely not aligned. Walter Hamada comes from horror films and he brought that lower budget-lower risk-solid profits mentality to the studio (Shazam, Birds of Prey, Joker, etc.). Zaslev and his people (which importantly now includes Alan Horn as an advisor) seem to want tentpole films per the reports. So Batgirl isn't aligned there at all as a too-expensive streaming film that maybe looks closer to CW than blockbuster.

And to be fair, the 'new plan' seems to be keeping the majority of stuff that was in the works with HBO/HBO Max and the feature films. But even before the Discovery deal was finalized, I thought it was interesting that there's zero clarity on the films front beyond the next 12 months or so...and it's been like that for a long time. We've known about Shazam 2, Aquaman 2, Flash, and Black Adam for ages. But what's next? I guess WW3 is kinda/sorta lurking out there. The Batman 2 also. But neither seems to be starting pre-production in the near future...?

They don't have to announce long-range plans to the degree of Marvel, but that's weird to me if you want even a loose universe. But I guess it sets things up for Zaslev's team, and maybe that was part of the conversation going on long before the deal was final.



Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/17 20:05:59


Post by: Ahtman


 Just Tony wrote:
So, people are still in the early stages of grief? Slip in a few more anti-WOC conspiracy theories despite the number of WB films starring a WOC as a lead...


I'm not sure what the Warriors of Chaos has to do with this and at this point I'm afraid to ask.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/17 20:51:53


Post by: xerxeskingofking


 Ahtman wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
So, people are still in the early stages of grief? Slip in a few more anti-WOC conspiracy theories despite the number of WB films starring a WOC as a lead...


I'm not sure what the Warriors of Chaos has to do with this and at this point I'm afraid to ask.


going out on a limb here with "Woman of Colour".

Unfortunately, any film that has a Minority Lead tends to attract the "broflake" crowd that has just discovered what it feels like when the Next Big Thing is decidedly not of their preferred ethnic group & gender, and don't like it.....


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/18 02:50:49


Post by: Just Tony


xerxeskingofking wrote:
 Ahtman wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
So, people are still in the early stages of grief? Slip in a few more anti-WOC conspiracy theories despite the number of WB films starring a WOC as a lead...


I'm not sure what the Warriors of Chaos has to do with this and at this point I'm afraid to ask.


going out on a limb here with "Woman of Colour".

Unfortunately, any film that has a Minority Lead tends to attract the "broflake" crowd that has just discovered what it feels like when the Next Big Thing is decidedly not of their preferred ethnic group & gender, and don't like it.....


Yep. People all over the internet and even in THIS VERY THREAD have already suggested it was racism/misogyny or both simultaneously that was the reason it was capped.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/18 04:05:27


Post by: H.B.M.C.


People who don't understand the situation and are far too quick to assign motive to simple (and even complex) business decisions.

But it's far easier to just screen "He'S a RaCiSt!" than actually look at the reasons behind Batgirl *(and Scoob! 2's) cancellations.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/18 09:44:45


Post by: Lance845


I am not going to say it's one thing or another, but there is a history with Hollywood in general but WB in particular undervaluing female led super hero flicks. From Supergirl way back in the 70s to Catwoman. They rarely get a chance at all, and when they do get a chance it comes with severely reduced budgets and little to no advertisement. Then they all sit around going "See! Women led comic book movies don't make any money!"

Wonderwoman was the singular exception that proves the rule. And she only got to do what she did in the first movie because the execs cared so little for the project that the people making it got left alone to produce it.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/18 12:44:50


Post by: Kid_Kyoto


I have said this many times and it bears repeating,

Go Woke and Go Broke.

The Batgirl film was doomed from the beginning because it was not true to the Batgirl character and they should have cast someone who fit the Batgirl fans grew up with.

A mute Chinese ninja.

Anything else is a travesty.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/18 13:50:52


Post by: Geifer


Wait, that can't be right. How is a mute going to speak in a really raspy voice all movie? That's not a real Batperson!


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/18 16:27:40


Post by: Casualty


I guarantee you most people do not think of a mute Chinese ninja when they think of Batgirl.

Edit - I'm potentially missing some sarcasm here, tbf.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/18 16:31:44


Post by: beast_gts


Casualty wrote:
I guarantee you most people do not think of a mute Chinese ninja when they think of Batgirl.

Edit - I'm potentially missing some sarcasm here, tbf.


You are - Batgirl has been Cassandra Cain for the last 20+ years in the comics.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/18 18:38:02


Post by: Lance845


beast_gts wrote:
Casualty wrote:
I guarantee you most people do not think of a mute Chinese ninja when they think of Batgirl.

Edit - I'm potentially missing some sarcasm here, tbf.


You are - Batgirl has been Cassandra Cain for the last 20+ years in the comics.


No she hasn't.

She became Orphan and the role was taken over by Stephanie Brown. Then there was no Batgirl for a while and now it's Barbara Gordan again. Cain hasn't been Batgirl since 2009.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/18 20:26:45


Post by: Dysartes


She (as in Cassandra Cain) is a character who could do with a bit more spotlight, I feel.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/19 00:21:32


Post by: AduroT


 Lance845 wrote:
beast_gts wrote:
Casualty wrote:
I guarantee you most people do not think of a mute Chinese ninja when they think of Batgirl.

Edit - I'm potentially missing some sarcasm here, tbf.


You are - Batgirl has been Cassandra Cain for the last 20+ years in the comics.


No she hasn't.

She became Orphan and the role was taken over by Stephanie Brown. Then there was no Batgirl for a while and now it's Barbara Gordan again. Cain hasn't been Batgirl since 2009.


Actually Barb, Steph, and Cass are ALL “Batgirl” right now.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/19 02:55:08


Post by: Lance845


Well feth. When did that start?


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/19 06:43:51


Post by: Kid_Kyoto


Like I said, the Batgirl movie was binned because it wasn't faithful to the comics!

Batgirl should be a blonde tennis player!

Or maybe a wheelchair bound hacker!

Possibly an Italian Mafia princess in a post-earthquake wasteland!

Definitely something like that.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/19 07:01:17


Post by: AduroT


 Lance845 wrote:
Well feth. When did that start?


The current Batgirls comic started in February, but Barb christened the other two official Batgirls again in the main Batman comic a bit before that.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/19 07:06:57


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 AduroT wrote:
The current Batgirls comic started in February, but Barb christened the other two official Batgirls again in the main Batman comic a bit before that.
Well, if I know anything about comics, I'm sure it'll stay this way forever.



Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/19 11:04:36


Post by: bbb


Almost no one reads modern comics and hasn't for the last 10ish years. The volume of new comics sold has steadily been decreasing. It's a dying medium so referencing any current or recent storylines will be lost on the vast majority of people who have ever been comic fans.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/19 11:21:02


Post by: AduroT


Everything is a dying medium now days because of piracy and inflation. We still sell thousands of dollars of comics every week and our business is steadily growing.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/19 11:25:46


Post by: Kid_Kyoto


Casualty wrote:
I guarantee you most people do not think of a mute Chinese ninja when they think of Batgirl.

Edit - I'm potentially missing some sarcasm here, tbf.


I'm mocking the sort of fans who were gleeful that a Batgirl film starring a Dominican American actress failed.

If they're looking for something 'faithful to the comics' then a mute ninja or the daughter of a supervillain is just as valid as an Irish redhead.

A Dominican is barely a change.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 bbb wrote:
Almost no one reads modern comics and hasn't for the last 10ish years. The volume of new comics sold has steadily been decreasing. It's a dying medium so referencing any current or recent storylines will be lost on the vast majority of people who have ever been comic fans.


Digital sales (forget piracy) are confidential, unlike paper sales which distributors do weekly estimates of. So we already know sales are higher than what Diamond says, the question is how much.

Living overseas any comics I buy are digital, it's been that way for more than 10 years, I just can't carry and store comics like I used to.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/19 11:45:34


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
I'm mocking the sort of fans who were gleeful that a Batgirl film starring a Dominican American actress failed.
Where are these gleeful people?

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
A Dominican is barely a change.
But, compared to the most common appearance of Barbara, it is another example of Gingerpocalypse.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/19 11:56:22


Post by: Overread


I still can't fathom how comic sales would be down* considering the insane marketing that the movies must be generating for comics.

Even if only a smaller portion of the customer base are engaging with comics, it should be spiking interest within that market segment constantly.


I could well see that perhaps people are buying fewer physical and more digital or even buying more physical volume and collected editions and less individual issues.



*That is unless a firm is being deliberate in presenting false data or is otherwise stalling/sabotaging/incompetent at serving the market.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/19 12:13:09


Post by: Tannhauser42


@Overread
I suspect that newcomers may be buying more into the existing graphic novels for the characters that they're interested in, and not so much the monthly comic book releases.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/19 13:26:44


Post by: Lance845


 bbb wrote:
Almost no one reads modern comics and hasn't for the last 10ish years. The volume of new comics sold has steadily been decreasing. It's a dying medium so referencing any current or recent storylines will be lost on the vast majority of people who have ever been comic fans.


Correction, nobody purchases individual issues any more. Trade sale have gone up by a lot and subscription services to comic things like Marvel Unlimited have filled in the gap.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/19 13:51:47


Post by: LunarSol


 AduroT wrote:
Everything is a dying medium now days because of piracy and inflation. We still sell thousands of dollars of comics every week and our business is steadily growing.


It helps that its a really good store!


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/19 15:16:22


Post by: bbb


 Lance845 wrote:
 bbb wrote:
Almost no one reads modern comics and hasn't for the last 10ish years. The volume of new comics sold has steadily been decreasing. It's a dying medium so referencing any current or recent storylines will be lost on the vast majority of people who have ever been comic fans.


Correction, nobody purchases individual issues any more. Trade sale have gone up by a lot and subscription services to comic things like Marvel Unlimited have filled in the gap.


My point is that in comparison to everyone who used to be comic book fans, the readership for modern comics is significantly smaller. So recent developments and storylines will be lost on people who at one point used to keep up with monthlies. As evidenced in this very thread. While, yes, sales numbers dont tell the whole story anymore, overall readership is WAY down. The movies are not bringing in new readers to current stories (which also is supported by the rise in TPB sales).

When I worked at a comic book store 20 years ago the vast majority of our subscribers were 20-50 year olds. Now, 20 years later, I'd guess most of them dont keep up with current stuff.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/19 16:13:24


Post by: LunarSol


Comics have always had these sorts of waves of popularity that mostly come down to the creators working in them. The characters get used up and it takes someone with a fresh take to reignite interest. At the moment, the industry is just lacking that 90's X-Men or Civil War or Countdown kind of story that invests people in the world again. The worlds those stories sparked have been fully explored and we need one with new ideas and more importantly, the right ideas. As much as I love Hickman as an author and as brilliant as his stories are, I think they're just a little too weird and unrelatable to catch a wide audience for example.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/19 16:25:19


Post by: Just Tony


 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Casualty wrote:
I guarantee you most people do not think of a mute Chinese ninja when they think of Batgirl.

Edit - I'm potentially missing some sarcasm here, tbf.


I'm mocking the sort of fans who were gleeful that a Batgirl film starring a Dominican American actress failed.

If they're looking for something 'faithful to the comics' then a mute ninja or the daughter of a supervillain is just as valid as an Irish redhead.

A Dominican is barely a change.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 bbb wrote:
Almost no one reads modern comics and hasn't for the last 10ish years. The volume of new comics sold has steadily been decreasing. It's a dying medium so referencing any current or recent storylines will be lost on the vast majority of people who have ever been comic fans.


Digital sales (forget piracy) are confidential, unlike paper sales which distributors do weekly estimates of. So we already know sales are higher than what Diamond says, the question is how much.

Living overseas any comics I buy are digital, it's been that way for more than 10 years, I just can't carry and store comics like I used to.


Aside from 9 incels online, was anyone celebrating it failing expressly because the actress was Dominican?


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/19 19:14:14


Post by: Lance845


 bbb wrote:
 Lance845 wrote:
 bbb wrote:
Almost no one reads modern comics and hasn't for the last 10ish years. The volume of new comics sold has steadily been decreasing. It's a dying medium so referencing any current or recent storylines will be lost on the vast majority of people who have ever been comic fans.


Correction, nobody purchases individual issues any more. Trade sale have gone up by a lot and subscription services to comic things like Marvel Unlimited have filled in the gap.


My point is that in comparison to everyone who used to be comic book fans, the readership for modern comics is significantly smaller. So recent developments and storylines will be lost on people who at one point used to keep up with monthlies. As evidenced in this very thread. While, yes, sales numbers dont tell the whole story anymore, overall readership is WAY down. The movies are not bringing in new readers to current stories (which also is supported by the rise in TPB sales).

When I worked at a comic book store 20 years ago the vast majority of our subscribers were 20-50 year olds. Now, 20 years later, I'd guess most of them dont keep up with current stuff.


I didn't stop reading comics. I have every trade and hardcover cross over/event for the entire Krakoa era of X-Men on my bookshelf. (I might be 2 trade behind right now. Thanks for the reminder.) I stopped reading DC because it's not good. Not because I am not reading comics. There is just no point in following anything in DC when they just reboot the entire comic line every 8 months.

Again, I don't think readership is down. I think the metric for measuring readership has changed.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/19 22:00:14


Post by: AduroT


Another to consider is a good chunk of the high point in comic sales weren’t readers, but speculators. People had just seen stuff like first Superman and what not hit high dollar collectable values. Lots of people purchased comics thinking they could save them to be worth something in the future, and the companies printed tons more copies to match these sales. Course the high print runs and everyone buying them meant they weren’t really all that collectable now because so many were out there, and a good chunk of that died off as a result.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/20 01:21:24


Post by: Casualty


 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Casualty wrote:
I guarantee you most people do not think of a mute Chinese ninja when they think of Batgirl.

Edit - I'm potentially missing some sarcasm here, tbf.


I'm mocking the sort of fans who were gleeful that a Batgirl film starring a Dominican American actress failed.

If they're looking for something 'faithful to the comics' then a mute ninja or the daughter of a supervillain is just as valid as an Irish redhead.

A Dominican is barely a change.


Gotcha


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/21 07:09:06


Post by: BrianDavion


 AduroT wrote:
Another to consider is a good chunk of the high point in comic sales weren’t readers, but speculators. People had just seen stuff like first Superman and what not hit high dollar collectable values. Lots of people purchased comics thinking they could save them to be worth something in the future, and the companies printed tons more copies to match these sales. Course the high print runs and everyone buying them meant they weren’t really all that collectable now because so many were out there, and a good chunk of that died off as a result.



Yeah I have a few comics I saved from the 90s which was the HEIGHT of the speculation craze. Catwoman number 1. the first apperance of the Azbat armor, the return of superman at the end of the reign of the supermen, I don't think I could buy a McDonald's hamburger for the price they are now. despite being in mint condition.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/22 07:43:34


Post by: Kid_Kyoto


BrianDavion wrote:
 AduroT wrote:
Another to consider is a good chunk of the high point in comic sales weren’t readers, but speculators. People had just seen stuff like first Superman and what not hit high dollar collectable values. Lots of people purchased comics thinking they could save them to be worth something in the future, and the companies printed tons more copies to match these sales. Course the high print runs and everyone buying them meant they weren’t really all that collectable now because so many were out there, and a good chunk of that died off as a result.



Yeah I have a few comics I saved from the 90s which was the HEIGHT of the speculation craze. Catwoman number 1. the first apperance of the Azbat armor, the return of superman at the end of the reign of the supermen, I don't think I could buy a McDonald's hamburger for the price they are now. despite being in mint condition.


You may want to recheck, I'm hearing that back issue prices are climbing again now that 90s babies are grown up and have money in the bank.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/22 08:04:57


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


In terms of back issues, kind of?

I’ve a 90 volume, £10 a chuck hardback Judge Dredd collection, and am now a mere gnat’s chuff off completing a currently 140 volume, £10 a chuck 2000AD collection.

That alone is £2,300.00 (yes when I put it like that my nipsy does clench) on Old Comic Books.

Totally 100% worth every penny because 2000AD and Judge Dredd rule. Well. Apart from Cal Hab and Caballistics, the first because it’s just not very good, the second because the art style just isn’t my jam and I find it super hard to tell who’s who in any given panel.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/23 13:12:21


Post by: Inquisitor Gideon


Welp, that's officially lost media now.

[Thumb - Capture.JPG]


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/23 13:57:04


Post by: ccs


 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Welp, that's officially lost media now.


Wouldn't it be funny if it being gone is the real reason it was canceled?
Someone hits the wrong key & "poof", 10s of millions of $s and months of effort disappear.
"Oh F*! Boss, I got some real bad news about that Batgirl project....."


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/23 14:13:21


Post by: Voss


That makes my brain hurt.

Back-ups are basically a default of most server set-ups these days, and if you have even half a brain, you'll make additional backups as well.

Actually permanently 'losing' server data requires a concerted effort these days. I'm not sure most casual users could manage to successfully do so.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/23 14:18:40


Post by: LunarSol


All this stuff is just gross. The HBO Max purge just to stop paying people to make a quick stock turnaround is absolutely disgusting. I'll not be at all surprised when WB is back up for sale next year after shareholders have made a quick buck burning its legacy to the ground.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/23 14:19:57


Post by: Flinty


I suppose it was inevitable if they were to take advantage of fully binning the project, but that has to hurt to see the results of a lot of hard work just vanish.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/23 14:27:56


Post by: Overread


Yeah that's got to be brutal to not even have any scenes survive at all. All those hours just lost.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/23 15:07:46


Post by: Slipspace


Voss wrote:
That makes my brain hurt.

Back-ups are basically a default of most server set-ups these days, and if you have even half a brain, you'll make additional backups as well.

Actually permanently 'losing' server data requires a concerted effort these days. I'm not sure most casual users could manage to successfully do so.

I wouldn't be surprised if back-ups do exist. In set-ups like this, the non-tech people usually only get access to the "live" version of the files, with access to any back-up infrastructure only available to the techs.

From on operational perspective it makes a lot of sense. The decision has been made not to release the movie, so it follows they'd then remove the files related to a now-dead project from their creator-facing infrastructure.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/23 15:21:11


Post by: AduroT


If you haven’t heard they’ve been doing the same to a lot of their cartoons. Entire series being wiped from existence.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/23 15:36:52


Post by: Overread


It's a problem with any big company- they can wipe things out. It's one reason I hate streaming being the norm because you lose the ability to have a legal local version. You lose DVD/BluRay and that means if they choose ot take a show off air or lose rights to it (or part of it) they might as well just delete it as its worthless to them.

It's the same as how movie-tie-in games can vanish from the steam store because the licence expires. At least there you can purchase and hold onto it through the steam system evne if you can never buy it again (total outright removal is super rare)


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/23 16:38:26


Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured


the big killer for games is music licencing, the moment you drop a contemporary tune on the sound track there's a ticking clock


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/23 19:25:15


Post by: Kid_Kyoto


My guess is they locked out the director from any back up copies, because he's the one most likely to leak it.

Hrm. I wonder if releasing it for free would still allow them to take the tax write off?

(Shrug)

All I know is we need to start building the myth for this film now. Start telling your kids how it was the greatest super film, if not the greatest film, of its era, how fans couldn't wait, how test audiences raved about it, but it is lost forever, sacrificed on the altar of Wall Street!

(Shakes fist at Wall Street)


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/23 19:31:36


Post by: Tyran


 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
My guess is they locked out the director from any back up copies, because he's the one most likely to leak it.

Hrm. I wonder if releasing it for free would still allow them to take the tax write off?

(Shrug)

All I know is we need to start building the myth for this film now. Start telling your kids how it was the greatest super film, if not the greatest film, of its era, how fans couldn't wait, how test audiences raved about it, but it is lost forever, sacrificed on the altar of Wall Street!

(Shakes fist at Wall Street)

*Looks at Warner Bros Discovery's market value that just keeps plummeting.*

This isn't how you sacrifice something on the altar of Wall Street. This is how you sacrifice something on the altar of Wall Street and utterly fail at Wall Street.

This is how a corporation dies.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/23 19:52:02


Post by: Kid_Kyoto


Maybe they need to cancel more films and shows?

And pull more Sesame Street from HBO+, that'll be sure to lure more subscribers in!


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/23 20:46:14


Post by: odinsgrandson


 Overread wrote:
I still can't fathom how comic sales would be down* considering the insane marketing that the movies must be generating for comics.

Even if only a smaller portion of the customer base are engaging with comics, it should be spiking interest within that market segment constantly.


I could well see that perhaps people are buying fewer physical and more digital or even buying more physical volume and collected editions and less individual issues.



*That is unless a firm is being deliberate in presenting false data or is otherwise stalling/sabotaging/incompetent at serving the market.



This is really about the collapse of the News Stand model. News stands used to sell loads of comics- a lot of them to kids. When that fell apart, it was a complete coincidence that those sales evaporated.

Currently, most physical comics are sold via comic shops which cater primarily to adult collectors.

Naturally there are people with political agendas citing the reason for shrinking comics sales are "black Spider-Man" or "gay Superman" when the real reason is based on the sales model rather than the content.

And as others have pointed out, graphic novel collections and subscription models are not counted in these 'declining comics sales' and those seem to be the preferred model for many current fans.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slipspace wrote:
Voss wrote:
That makes my brain hurt.

Back-ups are basically a default of most server set-ups these days, and if you have even half a brain, you'll make additional backups as well.

Actually permanently 'losing' server data requires a concerted effort these days. I'm not sure most casual users could manage to successfully do so.

I wouldn't be surprised if back-ups do exist. In set-ups like this, the non-tech people usually only get access to the "live" version of the files, with access to any back-up infrastructure only available to the techs.

From on operational perspective it makes a lot of sense. The decision has been made not to release the movie, so it follows they'd then remove the files related to a now-dead project from their creator-facing infrastructure.


Yeah, this looks like a deliberate move to keep him from accessing and/or leaking anything they did.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/23 21:26:44


Post by: bbb


It's rough for the people who put a lot of time and effort into the movie, but the corporation that owns the IP gets to do with it as they please.

The situation really makes me think that we should revisit how long it takes before something enters the public domain. Anyone can make their own works based off Shakespeare or Dickens works and one day anyone who wants to make their own stories of Batman or Spider-Man. I'm not opposed to the idea of changing public domain rules so that 50 years after publication works enter the public domain.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/23 21:37:59


Post by: Overread


The problem is when something stops being owned by a person and is owned by a company and that company is still making things. Imagine if in 50 years after GW started everything moved into public domain. That would mean Old World would only have another 20 years or so.

It would probably make companies invest heavily into new things, but at the same time have even less interest in supporting things after a few years. Everything would become a short term creative project.


You'd go from 50 versions of Batman to 50 versions of *animal*man. All being the same gruff character just different enough to be a new IP.



It's always a battle though, families of people who created wealth generating ideas don't want to suddenly lose when the creator dies. A father with a family could go from supporting them to nothing if they walked under a buss and their revenue generating content suddenly goes free market.


Of course disney is doing their best to constantly extend the limits


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/23 22:11:45


Post by: LunarSol


Honestly, there's not a lot of good that comes out of things entering the public domain. Mostly just low effort attempts to cash on recognizable names though its nice that people can't be sued for their little local theater stuff I suppose. I feel a little different about music than things that are about characters, but I don't see a lot of good coming from public domain Steve Rogers.

I think media preservation is a different topic than public domain though. We need ways to ensure that works remain available as we enter a world in which the technology is ready to make that possible. Songs, movies, videogames, you name it. There needs to be something making sure these things remain available.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/23 22:44:57


Post by: Overread


The problem is there's a bunch of them. There's at least one or two video game achieve groups around.

Part of the issue is the sheer volume of stuff being made. The other is trying to link up different preservation groups so that they work in an efficient manner.

Course then you hit issues such as what version - eg for music there are loads of different formats and encodings to preserve and the best are in the recording studio and might never be released to the general public.

On top of that even if you can preserve things you've then got to catalogue, index, tag, keyword, archieve and all so that it can actually be found. Remembering that some are going to be digital resources and some physical resources.




Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/23 22:56:38


Post by: odinsgrandson


Public domain laws won't help with the Batgirl film- it is getting suppressed. You have to have a copy in order to make a copy, whether or not it is a legal copy.


The money involved in this is interesting.

Cancelling a film or simply not releasing it isn't such a crazy thing, but that doesn't happen with films that cost $90 million (or the $40 million Scooby film). That's a LOT to just call a loss without even collecting the crumbs from a bad release. And it is a strong contrast against The Flash (which probably should be canned due to the star being a fugitive from the law for kidnapping and all that).


$90 million is not a huge budget for a super hero film these days- though I wonder how it compares to the much smaller productions on Disney+ right now. It isn't like Roger Corman's Fantastic Four.

Oddly, I think this film would make WAY more than $90 million if they released it in the theatres right now- after this publicity and Michael Keaton and all that.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/24 02:32:04


Post by: Just Tony


You don't know that. Sure Thing films fail at the theaters all the time, and this is FAR from a Sure Thing film.

Denial
Anger
Bargaining
Depression
Acceptance


Which stage are we at now?


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/24 05:48:52


Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik


The stage of interesting discussion. The same stage we’ve always been at. Not a single person in this thread has shown a particularly strong opinion on the binning of this movie.

It’s still being discussed because it’s a rare move from a major studio, and it’s therefore an interesting topic.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/24 06:48:12


Post by: Slipspace


 Just Tony wrote:
You don't know that. Sure Thing films fail at the theaters all the time, and this is FAR from a Sure Thing film.

Denial
Anger
Bargaining
Depression
Acceptance


Which stage are we at now?

None of the above. Have you actually read the discussion? Nobody seems especially annoyed that the film isn't being released. Nobody's organising boycotts of WB. It's just a really weird situation for such an expensive movie to be finished, then canned. That's where we're at now.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/24 06:57:37


Post by: Just Tony


We got immediate allusions to the cancellation being because of racism and misogyny, maybe a few phobias as well.


We got conspiracy theories about test screenings despite the fact there was multiple, yet the CT crowd all harken back to one article with less than credible sources.


We got cries of "muh public domain" because this one movie got shelved.


Don't forget the part where the director tried to get the film and found it deleted/missing/access prevented. Forget the fact several outlets reported the director's intent was to essentially pirate release the film.


I will never call out legitimate discussion, but I will call out any sort of baiting or conspiracy theories if they make no sense.


In my mind it's exactly as described in releases. Too expensive for streaming, not confident in theatrical release.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/24 09:45:41


Post by: Casualty


We got conspiracy theories about test screenings despite the fact there was multiple, yet the CT crowd all harken back to one article with less than credible sources.


...less than credible sources? Between NY Post and Hollywood Reporter?


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/24 13:17:21


Post by: Tyran


I don't believe it was canned because racism or misogyny, I believe it was canned because Warner Bros Discovery are idiots that believe they can make a profit by cancelling stuff.
Moreover it is hard to care about Batgirl when in the same month WBD has not only been cancelling plenty of shows (specially animation ones), but it has outright disappeared loved shows like Infinity Train.

Who does that? even Netflix doesn't outright disappear content.

Not a lot of people care about Batgirl, plenty of people care about animation. And thus the discussion surrounding WBD has mostly moved on from Batgirl and onto whatever nonsensical stupidity WBD does next.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/24 13:36:07


Post by: The_Real_Chris


 odinsgrandson wrote:

This is really about the collapse of the News Stand model. News stands used to sell loads of comics- a lot of them to kids. When that fell apart, it was a complete coincidence that those sales evaporated.

Currently, most physical comics are sold via comic shops which cater primarily to adult collectors.

Naturally there are people with political agendas citing the reason for shrinking comics sales are "black Spider-Man" or "gay Superman" when the real reason is based on the sales model rather than the content.

And as others have pointed out, graphic novel collections and subscription models are not counted in these 'declining comics sales' and those seem to be the preferred model for many current fans.


One comic creators take on that.

https://quantumvibe.com/strip?page=2361
https://quantumvibe.com/strip?page=2363
https://quantumvibe.com/strip?page=2365
https://quantumvibe.com/strip?page=2367


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/24 13:44:02


Post by: gorgon


 odinsgrandson wrote:
Public domain laws won't help with the Batgirl film- it is getting suppressed. You have to have a copy in order to make a copy, whether or not it is a legal copy.

The money involved in this is interesting.

Cancelling a film or simply not releasing it isn't such a crazy thing, but that doesn't happen with films that cost $90 million (or the $40 million Scooby film). That's a LOT to just call a loss without even collecting the crumbs from a bad release. And it is a strong contrast against The Flash (which probably should be canned due to the star being a fugitive from the law for kidnapping and all that).

$90 million is not a huge budget for a super hero film these days- though I wonder how it compares to the much smaller productions on Disney+ right now. It isn't like Roger Corman's Fantastic Four.

Oddly, I think this film would make WAY more than $90 million if they released it in the theatres right now- after this publicity and Michael Keaton and all that.


Think the general rule of thumb is that marketing and promotion is budgeted for around 50% of a film’s production cost. So breakeven for a theatrical release of Batgirl might have been around $135 mil. And that’s kind of a lot for an industry that still isn’t ‘right’. I think it’d basically have to be around top 20 or in terms of global box office to hit that mark.

Maybe it outperforms thanks to low “inventory” of feature films for cinemas. Or maybe it bombs far worse than expected, which happens in that industry. What’s more, if it’s poorly received does it genuinely become more “DC sucks” ammo at a time when they’ve been on a bit of a win streak?

Who knows what would have happened, but I think I can understand the calculus that the execs were looking at. I definitely understand that $90 million is kinda crazy for a one-off streaming-only movie unless you’re sure it’s going to be an EVENT. Had Batgirl been a series, it might have been a different conversation, because they drive many more subs.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/24 18:41:21


Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured


 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
My guess is they locked out the director from any back up copies, because he's the one most likely to leak it.

Hrm. I wonder if releasing it for free would still allow them to take the tax write off?

(Shrug)

All I know is we need to start building the myth for this film now. Start telling your kids how it was the greatest super film, if not the greatest film, of its era, how fans couldn't wait, how test audiences raved about it, but it is lost forever, sacrificed on the altar of Wall Street!

(Shakes fist at Wall Street)


and given he was trying to access it without permission (and copy what he found) that was a smart move on their part,

nothing worse than taking all the bad publicity for writing the film off only for the tax office to dispute things and claim it's promoting interest in their IPs since it's out in the wild so not being allowed the write off


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/24 23:48:42


Post by: H.B.M.C.


 Tyran wrote:
I believe it was canned because Warner Bros Discovery are idiots that believe they can make a profit by cancelling stuff.
They're not idiots. And they're not making a profit. They're reducing their loss.

 Tyran wrote:
in the same month WBD has not only been cancelling plenty of shows (specially animation ones), but it has outright disappeared loved shows like Infinity Train.
Firstly, a lot of the cancellations are cancellations on HBO Max. The streaming service. For instance, the Caped Crusader show hasn't been cancelled, it's just not been given the go ahead on the HBO Max service. Warner Brothers is shopping it around to other places.

As for "disappearing" things, they've explained this: There are many shows that, by keeping them available, it costs them money as they have to keep paying residuals. By removing them, those costs go away.

If shows no one is watching are costing you money, and you can save that money simply by removing them from the streaming platform, why wouldn't you?



Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/25 00:00:02


Post by: odinsgrandson


 Just Tony wrote:
You don't know that. Sure Thing films fail at the theaters all the time, and this is FAR from a Sure Thing film.

Denial
Anger
Bargaining
Depression
Acceptance


Which stage are we at now?



Is Snakes on a Plane a stage of grief? Can this movie really be worse than Morbius? And that one got released TWICE!



Actually I do feel annoyed on behalf of the film makers. They were hired to make a movie that was definitely going to get a release and now that's all gone. This offends me as an artist, and it doesn't really matter whether the art was bad. This means that artists that make films good will have less trust with the people who make movies get funded at WB.



But ultimately I'm here because this is so unprecedented and interesting. Yes, projects get canned all the time and they get downgraded to home video or streaming release and stuff like that. But not projects that cost this much money.

WB threw enough money at this that it seems crazy for them not to want to scrape together even a meager return on that investment. And I mean, it isn't like this could do any more damage to the DC brand than they've already done with most of their other movies.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/25 01:17:10


Post by: Tyran


 H.B.M.C. wrote:
 Tyran wrote:
I believe it was canned because Warner Bros Discovery are idiots that believe they can make a profit by cancelling stuff.
They're not idiots. And they're not making a profit. They're reducing their loss.


And yet their losses keep increasing.


 Tyran wrote:
in the same month WBD has not only been cancelling plenty of shows (specially animation ones), but it has outright disappeared loved shows like Infinity Train.
Firstly, a lot of the cancellations are cancellations on HBO Max. The streaming service. For instance, the Caped Crusader show hasn't been cancelled, it's just not been given the go ahead on the HBO Max service. Warner Brothers is shopping it around to other places.

As for "disappearing" things, they've explained this: There are many shows that, by keeping them available, it costs them money as they have to keep paying residuals. By removing them, those costs go away.

If shows no one is watching are costing you money, and you can save that money simply by removing them from the streaming platform, why wouldn't you?


Considering some of the removed shows are quite beloved with dedicated fanbases, really debatable no one is watching them.



Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/25 03:04:56


Post by: Voss


You're being disingenuous.

Saying a show has 'disappeared' implies you can't find it anywhere. A quick check on Infinity Train shows it easily available through amazon prime video, and I suspect other places as well. That isn't 'disappeared,' just off the chains of a crappy streaming service.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/25 03:25:50


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Exactly.

Most of these cancellation are on HBO Max. WB has other platforms, and a lot of their stuff is licenses to non-WB platforms.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/25 03:27:33


Post by: Tyran


Fair enough, although as far as I can see, a lot of those licenses are region locked, meaning that for a good portion of the world there is no way to legally watch some of the removed shows.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/25 07:52:03


Post by: Flinty


I wouldn’t say that exactly. Given what is happening, letting the cast and crew see it in some kind of final form seems pretty reasonable.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/25 08:22:55


Post by: Gitzbitah


 odinsgrandson wrote:



Is Snakes on a Plane a stage of grief? Can this movie really be worse than Morbius? And that one got released TWICE!




How dare you sir! Snakes on a m@therf@cking plane was a product of its time. Samuel L Jackson was at the height of his angry glory, and could literally show up, drop the f bomb, and people would come and see the film. The producers managed to hire him for what he knew would be a terrible movie, and then they tried to make it classy and change the name to something that, you know, syfy would have thought twice about airing.

He made them keep the title.

It is, oddly enough, a movie made terrible as a vanity project. He signed on to make an awful B movie, and did everything he could to make sure it was, because that was funny to him.

There's a major difference between a movie that knows it is well, Snakes on a Plane, and one that attempts to be good and is terrible.

And yes... to my shame or glory, I did see Snakes on a Plane in theaters. It was a good time, and a film that made the Leprechaun franchise look like cinematic genius.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/25 13:18:35


Post by: Jadenim


 Flinty wrote:
I wouldn’t say that exactly. Given what is happening, letting the cast and crew see it in some kind of final form seems pretty reasonable.


I dunno, kinda seems like rubbing salt in the wound. “You get to see the product of all you work over the past x-years, but no one else will…”


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/25 14:49:35


Post by: ZebioLizard2


 Tyran wrote:



 Tyran wrote:
in the same month WBD has not only been cancelling plenty of shows (specially animation ones), but it has outright disappeared loved shows like Infinity Train.
Firstly, a lot of the cancellations are cancellations on HBO Max. The streaming service. For instance, the Caped Crusader show hasn't been cancelled, it's just not been given the go ahead on the HBO Max service. Warner Brothers is shopping it around to other places.

As for "disappearing" things, they've explained this: There are many shows that, by keeping them available, it costs them money as they have to keep paying residuals. By removing them, those costs go away.

If shows no one is watching are costing you money, and you can save that money simply by removing them from the streaming platform, why wouldn't you?


Considering some of the removed shows are quite beloved with dedicated fanbases, really debatable no one is watching them.

It depends entirely on how much of a fanbase it actually is. A small but vocal one isn't exactly as helpful as a large group actually watching said shows and keeping it profitable.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/25 14:59:51


Post by: odinsgrandson


There is something fundamentally amiss when they're not willing to pay for content people like but other streaming services are willing to pick them up.

It really looks to me like HBO MAX is set to be a casualty in the streaming wars.

If that's the case then its carcass will eventually be picked clean and you'll be able to watch all of the HBO shows on other services. I kind of expect it to simply become an add on for other services or something like that.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/25 15:18:37


Post by: Tyran


 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
It depends entirely on how much of a fanbase it actually is. A small but vocal one isn't exactly as helpful as a large group actually watching said shows and keeping it profitable.

Given the nature of streaming, it is kinda impossible to known the true numbers.

At the very least, WBD's actions show a complete lack of integrity that has a good portion of the content producing community outraged and has utterly failed to create any degree of trust with the investors.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/25 15:31:22


Post by: LunarSol


Removing content to avoid paying residuals is just short term profiteering. Residuals are structured in such a way that they drop dramatically each year the content is on the platform. It's designed to not really cost anything to just leave up. The only real reason to do it is the same as when you lay off your entire staff after a project. Get rid of all costs while profiting on the work of your predecessors so you can show the numbers go up for a year.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/25 15:42:02


Post by: Laughing Man


 odinsgrandson wrote:
There is something fundamentally amiss when they're not willing to pay for content people like but other streaming services are willing to pick them up.

It really looks to me like HBO MAX is set to be a casualty in the streaming wars.

If that's the case then its carcass will eventually be picked clean and you'll be able to watch all of the HBO shows on other services. I kind of expect it to simply become an add on for other services or something like that.

While that'd be preferable, I'm not sure it'll actually happen. HBO MAX might very well die, but according to folks who've worked on several of their animated projects the stuff is being outright deleted rather than just archived.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/25 15:52:16


Post by: odinsgrandson


 Laughing Man wrote:
 odinsgrandson wrote:
There is something fundamentally amiss when they're not willing to pay for content people like but other streaming services are willing to pick them up.

It really looks to me like HBO MAX is set to be a casualty in the streaming wars.

If that's the case then its carcass will eventually be picked clean and you'll be able to watch all of the HBO shows on other services. I kind of expect it to simply become an add on for other services or something like that.

While that'd be preferable, I'm not sure it'll actually happen. HBO MAX might very well die, but according to folks who've worked on several of their animated projects the stuff is being outright deleted rather than just archived.



Man, this story makes less sense all the time. Why delete it rather than archive it somewhere? There's less than no reason to do that.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/25 16:13:22


Post by: Casualty


 odinsgrandson wrote:
 Laughing Man wrote:
 odinsgrandson wrote:
There is something fundamentally amiss when they're not willing to pay for content people like but other streaming services are willing to pick them up.

It really looks to me like HBO MAX is set to be a casualty in the streaming wars.

If that's the case then its carcass will eventually be picked clean and you'll be able to watch all of the HBO shows on other services. I kind of expect it to simply become an add on for other services or something like that.

While that'd be preferable, I'm not sure it'll actually happen. HBO MAX might very well die, but according to folks who've worked on several of their animated projects the stuff is being outright deleted rather than just archived.



Man, this story makes less sense all the time. Why delete it rather than archive it somewhere? There's less than no reason to do that.


The tax write off mechanism they're using here requires them to be able to say they're never going to or try to make a profit from these properties. But writing off effectively finished work at this point and at this scale is so unusual that it's not altogether clear what would satisfy the IRS that this is the case. Somehow showing that they've destroyed whatever master files exist is being proposed as one form of cover for that purpose.

Destroying the files would also make the story go away quicker after an initial shock, because so long as they exist you'll have people wondering what might be out there and how they might see it.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/25 18:32:20


Post by: gorgon


 odinsgrandson wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
You don't know that. Sure Thing films fail at the theaters all the time, and this is FAR from a Sure Thing film.

Denial
Anger
Bargaining
Depression
Acceptance


Which stage are we at now?



Is Snakes on a Plane a stage of grief? Can this movie really be worse than Morbius? And that one got released TWICE!



Actually I do feel annoyed on behalf of the film makers. They were hired to make a movie that was definitely going to get a release and now that's all gone. This offends me as an artist, and it doesn't really matter whether the art was bad. This means that artists that make films good will have less trust with the people who make movies get funded at WB.


I'm a creative professional too, and I honestly feel a little differently. I can sympathize with them because I know how it feels. I've experienced everything from fleshed-out ideas that never launched to whole campaigns that were completed and then shelved. Some years back before COVID, the local ad club had an event where people could bring their best ideas and projects that never saw the light of day. It sucks and hurts in the moment, but after a lot of years of doing this I've come to accept that it's part of the job when you're being paid to create something for someone else. It's ultimately not yours and you're not entitled to it. *shrug*

Maybe the folks in Hollywood have been mostly exempt from this just because the budgets are bigger. But looking at it from a business perspective, maybe they shouldn't be. At least not in a case where the project probably shouldn't have been greenlit in the first place. It was in such a weird spot budget-wise, and then they'd be throwing marketing money probably plus additional funds to spruce it up for theatrical release (IIRC, Blue Beetle got that budget bump for that reason).

And it does have to be said that IF Zaslev and company are serious about a more tightly shared universe...does a film featuring Keaton's Batman make much sense if he's not actually going to BE the Batman of the DCEU going forward? Because that's starting to look less likely as these DC films keep getting pushed further out and plans change at WB. I wouldn't mind seeing Leslie Grace play Jeffrey Wright's daughter at some point down the road, and then seeing Batgirl spin off of Battinson. It was already weird that she's playing Batfleck Gordon's daughter being mentored by Keaton's Batman at a time when Battinson is really THE Batman people think of, even if he isn't actually in the DCEU.

Quick edit on that last point (slightly spoiler-y):

Spoiler:
Originally the idea was for Flash to have Keaton come over from the Flashpoint-y alt timeline to become the Batman of the DCEU, replacing Batfleck. But we know Batfleck is in Aquaman 2...Momoa said so. Keaton previously filmed stuff for Aquaman, but it appears they reshot those scenes with Batfleck.

Now if Aquaman was being released before Flash, that would make sense from a continuity standpoint. But as of now, Flash is schedule to release FIRST. That could change, but if not it appears Affleck is still the DCEU Batman going forward. And that makes Batgirl an awkward thing unless you want to call it another alternate universe alongside the proper DCEU and the Reeves-verse. Or do reshoots for something where budget is already an issue.







Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/26 03:23:43


Post by: H.B.M.C.


I've had a project cancelled after I had finished it (and got paid for it!). A 40k-related one, no less. Never got to see it in its final formatted form, but it was cancelled due to monetary reasons. It sucks. I was disappointed. I also moved on. And it didn't stop me from working for the same company in the future on many more projects.

 odinsgrandson wrote:
It really looks to me like HBO MAX is set to be a casualty in the streaming wars.
HBO Max will be a casualty of redundancy. WB/Discovery now have two streaming platforms and multiple other platforms through which to show content. They don't need HBO Max, and will merge it into other areas.





Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/26 16:04:07


Post by: Casualty


And it didn't stop me from working for the same company in the future on many more projects.


Warner/HBO have a fairly unique issue with this though.

The reason their stuff looks so expensive compared to Netflix stuff that costs much more to make is that they have access to a whole grey infrastructure other studios don't. They have fabricators, prop archives, soundstage and backlot space, and longstanding relationships with creatives who like working for them, and they use these things to lever for stuff they *don't* have.

Because of this, HBO can do something for 1k beautifully that costs Netflix 2k to get done while still looking crappy - and people want payment upfront from Netflix where they (used to) have enough faith in WB to bank on future residuals and opportunities.

So it's not just a question of one big dramatic move putting everyone in their places, these decisions have put WB/HBO'S whole way of doing business in doubt going forward. After all, if HBO might pull Netflix style bs with your work and benefits, why not just work for Netflix?

So by burning everyone for the sake of short term pennies, Zaslav has likely made everything HBO does much more expensive in future. That this doesn't seem to factor in to his decision making makes people think he either doesn't understand the sector he's in now vs Discovery's, or that he simply doesn't care about the long term damage this does, because he doesn't care what happens to HBO in that long term.

Trying to hide all this stuff under House of the Dragon doesn't seem to be working for the stock market either, so it's not clear who all this stuff is meant to benefit.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/26 16:33:05


Post by: odinsgrandson


 gorgon wrote:
 odinsgrandson wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
You don't know that. Sure Thing films fail at the theaters all the time, and this is FAR from a Sure Thing film.

Denial
Anger
Bargaining
Depression
Acceptance


Which stage are we at now?



Is Snakes on a Plane a stage of grief? Can this movie really be worse than Morbius? And that one got released TWICE!



Actually I do feel annoyed on behalf of the film makers. They were hired to make a movie that was definitely going to get a release and now that's all gone. This offends me as an artist, and it doesn't really matter whether the art was bad. This means that artists that make films good will have less trust with the people who make movies get funded at WB.


I'm a creative professional too, and I honestly feel a little differently. I can sympathize with them because I know how it feels. I've experienced everything from fleshed-out ideas that never launched to whole campaigns that were completed and then shelved. Some years back before COVID, the local ad club had an event where people could bring their best ideas and projects that never saw the light of day. It sucks and hurts in the moment, but after a lot of years of doing this I've come to accept that it's part of the job when you're being paid to create something for someone else. It's ultimately not yours and you're not entitled to it. *shrug*

Maybe the folks in Hollywood have been mostly exempt from this just because the budgets are bigger. But looking at it from a business perspective, maybe they shouldn't be. At least not in a case where the project probably shouldn't have been greenlit in the first place. It was in such a weird spot budget-wise, and then they'd be throwing marketing money probably plus additional funds to spruce it up for theatrical release (IIRC, Blue Beetle got that budget bump for that reason).




Hollywood is far from immune to this sort of thing. They actually experience it often- probably more often than other industries. But NEVER like this.

-Projects are pitched and sold- and you get paid at this point but your film has something less than a 1% chance of getting made. I always think it is funny when an author or company announces "We've sold the movie rights to Monsterpocalypse" as if it is a film that's going to happen.

-Pre-production- each step of pre-production increases the chances of the film getting made because each step represents producers getting more invested in the project. People are hired to write scripts, direct, storyboard, test scenes are filmed on low budgets and stuff like that.

-Many things can shut down production once it has started. Actors can be too injured to complete their role, weather can destroy your sets, governments can seize your footage because you didn't realize you were shooting near a secret airbase, But it all comes down to investors- whether they think they're better off cutting their loses or putting in more money. A lot of times you're fighting with the fact that investors can take some insurance payout.

-Films that get made to completion don't always get released. Some get shown at festivals and never again, sometimes a studio chooses to sit on them indefinitely. One of the rarest cases are films that are worth more unreleased than released.

-And remember the same people do television as film. Pilots for shows get made and never aired. Four test episodes are made and then never aired. Though sometimes those get some sort of meager release.

- The last way that a studio can forget your film is the "write off." That doesn't mean that they don't release your movie in any form- it means that they've decided that marketing your film is not worth it. The film might get a limited release to theatres. But those finished films are still released, and once in a while they become "sleeper hits" (ie- a film that does better after its first week).



What is different here is that this film was the kind that was very certain to get released.


Some of the strange things here

- Film is complete and not getting even streaming release that would cost nothing at this point.
- Finished film had big name actor Michael Keaton. His name is supposed to mean something
- Film had $90 mil budget without even being given the chance for limited release or sleeper status.
- Marketing was well underway with official photos of Batgirl costume and hype about actors
- Copies of film/footage are denied to the creators (I'm sure this is because there is actual public interest in the project- a fact that would usually lead to the film being released)


There's a ton of "oh hey, that's business" that goes on in Hollywood, but this film had already passed all of those hoops.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/27 04:08:44


Post by: gorgon


 odinsgrandson wrote:
 gorgon wrote:
 odinsgrandson wrote:
 Just Tony wrote:
You don't know that. Sure Thing films fail at the theaters all the time, and this is FAR from a Sure Thing film.

Denial
Anger
Bargaining
Depression
Acceptance


Which stage are we at now?



Is Snakes on a Plane a stage of grief? Can this movie really be worse than Morbius? And that one got released TWICE!



Actually I do feel annoyed on behalf of the film makers. They were hired to make a movie that was definitely going to get a release and now that's all gone. This offends me as an artist, and it doesn't really matter whether the art was bad. This means that artists that make films good will have less trust with the people who make movies get funded at WB.


I'm a creative professional too, and I honestly feel a little differently. I can sympathize with them because I know how it feels. I've experienced everything from fleshed-out ideas that never launched to whole campaigns that were completed and then shelved. Some years back before COVID, the local ad club had an event where people could bring their best ideas and projects that never saw the light of day. It sucks and hurts in the moment, but after a lot of years of doing this I've come to accept that it's part of the job when you're being paid to create something for someone else. It's ultimately not yours and you're not entitled to it. *shrug*

Maybe the folks in Hollywood have been mostly exempt from this just because the budgets are bigger. But looking at it from a business perspective, maybe they shouldn't be. At least not in a case where the project probably shouldn't have been greenlit in the first place. It was in such a weird spot budget-wise, and then they'd be throwing marketing money probably plus additional funds to spruce it up for theatrical release (IIRC, Blue Beetle got that budget bump for that reason).


Spoiler:
Hollywood is far from immune to this sort of thing. They actually experience it often- probably more often than other industries. But NEVER like this.

-Projects are pitched and sold- and you get paid at this point but your film has something less than a 1% chance of getting made. I always think it is funny when an author or company announces "We've sold the movie rights to Monsterpocalypse" as if it is a film that's going to happen.

-Pre-production- each step of pre-production increases the chances of the film getting made because each step represents producers getting more invested in the project. People are hired to write scripts, direct, storyboard, test scenes are filmed on low budgets and stuff like that.

-Many things can shut down production once it has started. Actors can be too injured to complete their role, weather can destroy your sets, governments can seize your footage because you didn't realize you were shooting near a secret airbase, But it all comes down to investors- whether they think they're better off cutting their loses or putting in more money. A lot of times you're fighting with the fact that investors can take some insurance payout.

-Films that get made to completion don't always get released. Some get shown at festivals and never again, sometimes a studio chooses to sit on them indefinitely. One of the rarest cases are films that are worth more unreleased than released.

-And remember the same people do television as film. Pilots for shows get made and never aired. Four test episodes are made and then never aired. Though sometimes those get some sort of meager release.

- The last way that a studio can forget your film is the "write off." That doesn't mean that they don't release your movie in any form- it means that they've decided that marketing your film is not worth it. The film might get a limited release to theatres. But those finished films are still released, and once in a while they become "sleeper hits" (ie- a film that does better after its first week).



What is different here is that this film was the kind that was very certain to get released.


Some of the strange things here

- Film is complete and not getting even streaming release that would cost nothing at this point.
- Finished film had big name actor Michael Keaton. His name is supposed to mean something
- Film had $90 mil budget without even being given the chance for limited release or sleeper status.
- Marketing was well underway with official photos of Batgirl costume and hype about actors
- Copies of film/footage are denied to the creators (I'm sure this is because there is actual public interest in the project- a fact that would usually lead to the film being released)


There's a ton of "oh hey, that's business" that goes on in Hollywood, but this film had already passed all of those hoops.


Are you trying to debate me or support my point? Hollywood isn't used to having medium-sized projects completed, paid for and shelved. TV pilots aren't the same thing at all...they're just a well-developed business pitch. Acts of God or government actions aren't either. The new management took a look at Batgirl and just didn't want it. Didn't think it made business or creative sense. And that happens everywhere outside of Hollywood. And in that instance, those creatives don't stomp their feet and act entitled that their work be seen.

Although I'm a creative, my experience is that these kinds of situations are usually 95% about the financials for some reason or another. In this case, I suspect there is a creative/branding angle also. And again, are they actually wrong that their Batman situation is a giant fething mess? They have a stylish new Batman franchise that just kicked ass at the box office...so let's roll out a Batgirl with no narrative or creative connection to that. Instead she's gonna be the daughter of Affleck's Gordon but mentored by Keaton's Batman...and put in a suit that looks like something from the CW.

The new bosses almost certainly don't want three Batmans and two universes and mishmashed backgrounds with spinoffs of big budget franchises that look and feel cheap. IIRC, Zaslev talked about wanting the DC stuff to play big and not damage the brand...I think the answer's there and not so mysterious if you look at their words and actions. They also just showed the world where they're putting their Batman chips with Reeves' new deal. The Penguin spinoff is moving ahead. The Arkham spinoff apparently also. Batgirl not so much because it's not anything that they want to be moving forward with.

The reason the directors were locked out can almost certainly be spelled Z-A-C-K-S-N-Y-D-E-R. I'm quite sure they want no part of more directors sitting on studio property and leaking/teasing it to gin up social media and try to force a release.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/30 17:13:08


Post by: odinsgrandson


I think I was supporting your point for the most part.

What you're saying is that they realized that their DC universe is a total wreck and they want to fix it.

It hadn't occurred to me. I had figured they either didn't realize the mess they had made or that they didn't care (which I figured was more likely) so long as they could keep pretending that it all fit together.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/30 22:54:13


Post by: Ghaz


'What Would 'Batgirl' Have Looked Like? Alleged 'Funeral Screening' Intel Describes 'Very CW' Tone' - SyFy Wire

... Umberto Gonzales (a film reporter for The Wrap known for netting juicy scoops) claimed to have spoken with an anonymous attendee from one of these events, who described the movie as "a very expensive CW pilot." And while "it was certainly not the worst superhero movie" this individual had ever seen, they still understood why WB Discovery opted for "the write-down" instead


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/31 02:03:07


Post by: Just Tony


 Ghaz wrote:
'What Would 'Batgirl' Have Looked Like? Alleged 'Funeral Screening' Intel Describes 'Very CW' Tone' - SyFy Wire

... Umberto Gonzales (a film reporter for The Wrap known for netting juicy scoops) claimed to have spoken with an anonymous attendee from one of these events, who described the movie as "a very expensive CW pilot." And while "it was certainly not the worst superhero movie" this individual had ever seen, they still understood why WB Discovery opted for "the write-down" instead



How goddamn DARE them?!?!?!?!? Batgirl stars a WOC and is therefore inherently amazing and beyond criticism or reproach.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/31 02:38:26


Post by: H.B.M.C.


Batgirl featuring Warriors of Chaos would be pretty metal.

"Gotham is my city!"
"Blood for the Blood God!"
"Wait... what?"




Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/31 02:53:14


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


I have to admit, it would amuse me to see Batman keep sending champions of Khorne to Arkham asylum because that works so well for mortal criminals.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/31 03:09:38


Post by: Just Tony


H.B.M.C. wrote:Batgirl featuring Warriors of Chaos would be pretty metal.

"Gotham is my city!"
"Blood for the Blood God!"
"Wait... what?"




BobtheInquisitor wrote:I have to admit, it would amuse me to see Batman keep sending champions of Khorne to Arkham asylum because that works so well for mortal criminals.



Damn, I think we found a way to make this movie watchable...


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/31 12:39:33


Post by: LunarSol


Please read "Dark Knights: Metal" for further details


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/31 17:47:32


Post by: Kid_Kyoto


The biggest problem of course is that they weren't true to the character of Barbara Gordon.

Traditionally portrayed as a wheel-chair using hacker, casting a Temporarily Able-Bodied actress they just threw out the most interesting part of her character.

#notmybarbaragordon


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/31 20:53:28


Post by: Dysartes


 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
The biggest problem of course is that they weren't true to the character of Barbara Gordon.

Traditionally portrayed as a wheel-chair using hacker, casting a Temporarily Able-Bodied actress they just threw out the most interesting part of her character.

#notmybarbaragordon

Barbara's spine has been healed since 2011, though may have been temporarily damaged again last year.

While I might agree with you that the Oracle version of Barbara is more interesting than the Batgirl version, the version they were filming has been re-established for long enough for it to be reasonable.


Batgirl Movie Binned @ 2022/08/31 21:15:50


Post by: gorgon


I'm kinda curious to see if Sasha Calle's Supergirl ends up making it to the main DCEU universe or not, and in what form that takes. I think Kara Zor-El is a very interesting character because of her contrasts with Kal-El. The plan was apparently to have her REPLACE Superman in the DCEU. Flash movie spoiler:

Spoiler:
In the alt timeline, Kal-El is killed by Zod as a baby so that Superman never existed. And this apparently sticks even after Barry resets the timeline.


But now there's a lot of chatter (again) about Cavill possibly coming back after all, so who knows. I'd rather see Supergirl as part of a Superman family, because I think it's just more interesting all around and enhances Superman's character as well. Feel that Superman isn't 'relatable'? Give him a cousin who lived on Krypton during its destruction and have him introduce her to Earth even as she helps teach him about Krypton. It gives him an extended family and opportunity for interesting interactions...and makes him less the outsider.

FYI, I've really been digging the Supergirl: Woman of Tomorrow comic. Really gets into what it would mean to be her, having lived through a disaster that Kal-El knows about but has no memories of.

And (getting this back on topic), if the plan was to have Batgirl basically fill Batman's shoes in the DCEU (with Keaton being semi-retired)...meh. Would rather see Leslie Grace play the character in the Reeves films, or at least a better, not-TV-movie version alongside a proper DCEU Batman.