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Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/03 00:58:10


Post by: JakeSiren


Now that the codex is out, it is time for a new thread.

I am still having a read through, but many units feel dramatically improved upon their previous datasheets.

Flamers of Tzeentch stand out to me. Their base profile is good and there are so many ways to buff them. Between Infernal Flames (+1 to wound), Burning Warpfire (max shots vs 11+ model units), and the Herald of Tzeentch aura (re-roll wounds of 1), they will feature heavily in a lot of my lists.

What other units or combos is everyone excited about?


Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/03 04:32:59


Post by: Vortenger


Flamers are the first unit in 9th I've been excited to use overwatch with. I really doubt the staying power of the shoot-and-scoot style Tzeentch looks to support, but a squad of Pinks has around 25 wounds with splitting. That has to be worth something. How TF are screamers supposed to stay alive to do their job?

Nurgle has arguably more staying power (PB's notwithstanding) and volume of attacks but no high-strength units except the undivided datasheets. Beasts have a great stat line but cost so much I question their value. Slaanesh looks solid all around and Khorne...has never interested me so aside from how good cannons look, I'll let someone else be the judge. Soulgrinders look solid for the first time! The troop unit sizes drive me a little nuts though, not gonna lie. I bought a horde army and they... aren't that anymore.

I want my furies back. I'd accept legends begrudgingly.

edit: Even with his new cost, doesn't Be'lakor look to be an auto-include?


Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/03 05:10:39


Post by: ccs


Just began to read through it, so no real judgements yet.


Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/03 05:35:05


Post by: JakeSiren


I'm not sure if Be'lakor is an auto-take for me, but that is largely because I play 1k point games. It's hard to justify spending 40% of your points on one model.

That said, something gimmicky that I have found that includes Be'lakor. You can get a total -4 to enemy attrition tests. Take Be'lakor, an Exalted GUO with Hideous Visage, and a Khorne Warlord with Aspect of Death. If the enemy unit is under half strength, then they would be at -5 for attrition, which means the entire unit auto-flees! Too bad Space Marines don't care about attrition modifiers.

Screamers look like they will be more useful picking off weakened elite / monster / vehicle units. They have significant mobility, but their bad WS and low attacks mean they aren't liable to do massive damage. But with with Warp Jaws they should do 6~8 wounds to most high-toughness targets.

Nurgle is actually the one I'm least excited about. Plague drones feel like they've had a downgrade in terms of offensive output. The AP is nice, but they have considerably less D2. That said, they are certainly more durable.
The change to how Nurglings fill troop slots is disappointing. I can still see myself bringing a unit or two for early game board control, but given the points and the lack of slot filling, I think I would prefer for more plaguebearers.
For Beasts of Nurgle, I think there is a few ways to play them. Their biggest advantage is that they regenerate at the end of each phase. They could reasonably be back field objective holders. So units of 1 or 2 to hold onto those objectives. Alternatively, they could be quite useful as T3 deep strikers. Once the enemy has depleted forces, you can charge them into units that you don't want shooting any more. Ideally charging into units that won't kill them in close combat.

For Khorne, there look to be some solid combos. I'm considering an Exalted Bloodthirster with Indomitable Onslaught (8 wound cap/phase), and the Blood-drinker Talisman (kill a model, on a 5+ gain wound back). Not sure on the WL trait though (quite a few good options there IMO)
The Herald units have all had solid buffs. Most doing 3 damage with more attacks and strength.
Basically everything looks decent in combat to me. I think that quite a few units will want to leverage the Manifestation rules to avoid being shot at. Line your back lines with Skull Cannon's (they are amazing IMO), have a mix of Flesh Hounds and Crushers to push forwards. Possibly give your warlord Aspect of Death to help with the Manifestation ranges (Aspect of Death + Daemonic Terror + Primeval Terror = -3 leadership)


Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/03 10:55:51


Post by: p5freak


Screamers are weird, a melee unit which only has a 6+ sv in melee, wtf ? They better kill what they charge, if not they are dead.


Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/04 03:11:33


Post by: JakeSiren


Something interesting with Horrors and splitting now. Basically you split after all of the attacks have been resolved. This means that a savvy opponent with sufficient attacks could destroy a Pink Horror unit before they are allowed to split.

While there aren't too many units likely to achieve this for shooting, close combat is a different issue. With their 6+ save, you would need to inflict 12 wounds to their T3 bodies. Any unit with modest melee capabilities should be able to do this, which will make screening your Pink Horrors important.


Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/04 04:28:20


Post by: p5freak


Flamers only have 12" range. They are big damage dealers, but die very fast in melee. Make sure there is no counter charge after you shoot.

Pinks are our only obsec choice, they are very expensive for a T3 W1 model, and die very fast in melee. Yes, they split, but only if at least one survives, and only on 4+.


Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/04 12:29:43


Post by: Hecate


Getting the codex in a week or so when I have money. Looking forward to reading the Slaanesh rules. From what little I've heard, the new Slaanesh is an improvement over the old Slaanesh.


Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/04 13:34:28


Post by: Niiai


How would mono nurgle do? Is it thoughe nough to survive a lot? Or would they just get shot off?


Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/04 14:03:02


Post by: ccs


It looks like my mono- Khorne force force only has access to two sources of Locus.
•Skarbrand
•Skull Alter
Of wich I own....neither. :(

I didn't overlook any did i?


Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/04 14:38:57


Post by: BomBomHotdog


ccs wrote:
It looks like my mono- Khorne force force only has access to two sources of Locus.
•Skarbrand
•Skull Alter
Of wich I own....neither. :(

I didn't overlook any did i?


Each god has access to 2 sources for Warp Locus. The named Greater Deamons along with terrain pieces for Khorne and Nurgle, Infernal Enrapturess for Slaanesh, and a warlord trait for Tzeentch that comes with an added bonus of 12" aura to re-roll morale. Of the two terrain pieces only Nurgle's can be setup outside of Deployment. Warp Locus doesn't help if you're bringing in units inside your own Deployment because you can setup outside of 3" of enemy units. (I actually used this with a group of Flamers on some Rubrics who were 4" outside my Deployment zone in my 1st game)


Has anyone seen any way to add Warpstorm Points? There's ways to retain but I haven't seen ways to add.


Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/04 15:01:59


Post by: Niiai


The cloud of flies rule for plaguebearers give -1 to hit if they are 20 models. But they cap out at 10 models. Is there something I am missing?


Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/04 15:07:21


Post by: p5freak


Its a battlescribe issue, you cant have a 20 model unit of plaguebearers.


Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/04 15:08:46


Post by: Niiai


I figured it was battlescribe, but then asupects tactics said the same. I guess I know where they get their information from. ^_^


Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/04 15:25:23


Post by: p5freak


BomBomHotdog wrote:

Has anyone seen any way to add Warpstorm Points? There's ways to retain but I haven't seen ways to add.


Epidemius tally of pestilence lets you add 1 WSP for every 7 enemy models killed by nurgle models.


Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/04 16:11:26


Post by: Niiai


 p5freak wrote:
BomBomHotdog wrote:

Has anyone seen any way to add Warpstorm Points? There's ways to retain but I haven't seen ways to add.


Epidemius tally of pestilence lets you add 1 WSP for every 7 enemy models killed by nurgle models.


I also thing the nurgle trees add one to the warp storm points if it kills a unit. Tricky to do.

I was looking for a pure nurgle list

Great unclean one

3 nurglings
3 nurglings
10 plaguebearers
10 plaguebearers
10 plaguebearers

1 beast of nurgle
1 beats of nurge
1 beast of nurge

5 plague drones
5 plague drones

1 soulgrinder
1 soulgrinder

1 Feculent Gnarlwood

However, I did not like how it came out. I doubt it is enough resulient to survive. The soulgrinders only have autocannons for ranged weapons, and that is bad. The plague dronones are the only offensive fast models. I am unsure if there are ebough trix to summon beasts of nurgle far ahead that they get of charges.

How would you build a pure nurfgle list?


Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/04 23:14:00


Post by: xeen


So I got a few games in with my pure Tzeentch army (1500 points). I basically used one of each of the Tzeentch units and I will give my impressions. Hope this is helpful

Warp Storm
So I am not really that impressed with the warp storm table. I mean -1 to hit is good, but it needs to be over 12" so it is more limited. I really only used the demonic whispers (I was playing grey knights) and the +1 to cast. If you are playing Tzeentch the +1 to cast warp storm is basally what you are going to spend points on every turn, (its 3 so not so bad). And it makes a big difference with the spell casting

Stratagems
I am unimpressed with the stratagems. None are great. The teleport a character can be helpful but is really situational and the cast an extra power is good, but you need to declare at the beginning so it loses a bit of its flexibility. The rest are not very useful. I found myself using my CP for really only interrupt, auto pass morale, and re-rolls.

Spells
The Tzeentch spells are good. Gate does mad damage, the bolt of change is really good, +1 t wound on flamers is broken (more on that later), the random +2 move, +1 S, or +1T is better than you think because you get to pick if you roll a 9 or better, which is easy with the Lord of Change, and you can put that power on any Tzeentch unit (T8 lord of change, T9 soul grinder). The one that turns off auras is a bit situational and was not necessary in the game I played, and the other (keep 2 WSP) is really not useful.

Units HQ

Lord of Change - he is as advertised. I gave him -1 to hit (Exalted) -1 to would (WL). I know the impossible robe is the hotness on the internet right now, but I actually used the upgraded rod of sorcery. The impossible robe felt like it would have been overkill on defense and really, he was rarely shot at by my opponents because they were afarid of the -1s and the 3++d. The relic rod however gave him a pretty impressive shooting attack, that killed a GK dreadknight (who was already damage by Gate). The d3 is what sells it to me. On the downside he is only BS3 for some reason, and he is not very good in close combat. I would maybe use him in a mix, but the Bloodthirstier is probably better.

Herald - Spell caster and buffed my pink horrors. He was ok, did what he does which is cast spells and buff sit re-roll 1's to wound and auto wound for pink horrors in command phase. Don't sleep on the staff of change shooting attack for only 5 points as well. If I was going to do a mixed detachment I would probably bring a more kill-y one from Khrone or Slannesh.

Daemon Prince - I took Tzeentch obviously, which gives him another spell/cast. With only 4 good powers the extra cast doesn't really do much but it let me spread out gate if necessary. I also think if you are going pure Tzeentch a DP is a must bring. He adds much needed melee strenght. I took him with the relic that is +1 damage and 6's to wound MW. He also took down an dreadknight in one round. d4 on the sword is just so tasty. In a mix I don't know if I would go Tzeentch with the DP, probably Khrone or Nurgle.

Units Troops

Pink Horrors - First I think 150 is probably to much for them by like 20. They are not as durable as you think even with the 3++d, and the split as they are only T3 so very susceptible to small arms mass shots. And then in combat they just die like cultists as you need to have a survivor to split, which you won't have against anything that is remotely decent in melee. Also their shooting for me is one shot not enough. If pinks had 3 shots (2 for blue and incandescent) they might be worth 150, but with only two shots each it is not enough for them to really be any kind of threat, and so they are kind of just blah. I mean have to take in pure tzeentch, but in mix, I would look elsewhere.

Units Elite

Exhalted Flamer - he is the only one I did not use. Points wise it was him or a herald and I went with herald. I can see an argument for him over the chariot as they are basically the same only he is not target-able but the chariot has some melee ability. Curious what other think.

Flamers - yea these guys are just straight broken. Whoever wrote the codex must have mixed up which unit was 30 points per model and which was 25 because there is no way these guys should be 25 and screamers 30. Even without the buffs these guys are straight fire. Always have a CP fo over watch and they are not being charge. They are a must take in every daemon list that is not pure Khrone, Slannesh, Nurgle. In fact if I was going to run pure competitive Tzeentch or mix I would take two, probably 3 of these units of 6. Enjoy these while you can because there is no way they don't get hit with a 5 point increase in the next chapter approved. And you know what? I would still field 3 even if they were 30 points per model. These are probably one of, if not the, best units in the book.

Units Fast

Screamers - so on the opposite end you have the screamers which is mind boggling why GW thinks these guys are worth 30 points per model. They are melee only with WS4 and 3 attacks. Yes they are fast, but they also die really easily in combat, which is the only think they do. They can do the slash attack for MW but how often is that going to matter. Also their neat trick of teleporting instead of advancing is really not very valuable. They can't charge after (counts as advance and no advance and charge), they are beasts so no actions, and they can't use the fly over MW. Really other than a few very niche reasons (engage on all fronts) I can't see when I would really ever use the teleport which is why they are 30 points. I will continue to use because pure Tzeentch and I like the model, but if I was building a competitive list I would take any unit over these guys, and in pure tzeentch I would just take more flamers.

Units Heavy

Chariot - In a pure tzeentch army it is pretty good. It buffs the flamers and has a pretty decent shooting attack and an ok melee attack. I don't worry as much about it being targeted as it has T6 with 3++d and 9 wounds, so hard to take down shooting. It is usually screened by the flamers it is buffing so it is harder to charge and can pick its target if it wants to charge as it has a pretty fast move. Overall it is good in a pure list, I would probably skip it in a mix list.

Soul grinder - wow so much better now. However, they are not a sit back and shoot unit, they are a melee unit. Their shooting is ok, but if you are not using the melee you are missing out one what makes them good. I obviously took tzeentch to keep my purity, and the 4++d in melee did not come up because it was killed by shooting, but again in a mix detachment I would take it as any of the other 3 as all are better. Nurgle for T9 is probably the best. I gave my T9 with the spell and it was money, so natural T9 would be great. Also watch out for massed fire that either wounds on 5+ or auto wounds on 6's to hit because without that big toughness doing work, he only has a 4++ and will take wounds to light fire that can by pass T.


Overall I like my tzeentch list. To fill it out to 2000 I am adding a Chaos Knight. However, if I really wanted to do competitive Tzeentch and had the $$, I would get Bel'kor. He would really help Tzeentch with allowing access to his psyker powers (you only need to bring him for that) and he would add a real hard hitting melee unit to the army.

Hope this was helpful and look forward to people's thoughts.






Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/05 02:43:33


Post by: TonyH122


Thanks, xeen, for the thoughts re: mono Tzeentch, as well as their role in mixed lists.

I'm all aboard the mono-Khorne train, mainly because it's all I own. This is what I'm thinking, and I'm eager for thoughts:

Bloodthirster
Exaltation: Indomitable Onslaught
WLT: Brazen Hide
Relic: Blood-Drinker Talisman

Daemon Prince w/ Wings and Sword
Relic: A'Grath, King of Blades

10x Bloodletters
10x Bloodletters
10x Bloodletters
10x Bloodletters

5x Bloodcrushers

5x Flesh Hounds
5x Flesh Hounds
5x Flesh Hounds

Be'lakor
Psychic: Shrouded Step // Wreathed in Shades


The game plan is basically to have two unkillable biggies on the board working their way up the middle. Likely start the Bloodcrushers on the board to move up and tank in the centre. The Flesh Hounds either camp home objectives, or fast push side objectives. The Bloodletters get Warp-Locus deep-stuck in to kill stuff!

I'm hoping to try out the list on the weekend, but I'd be interested in anyone's thoughts before then!


Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/05 03:40:12


Post by: xeen


You can’t take a daemon prince with belkor. Otherwise that looks pretty good.


Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/05 04:39:12


Post by: TonyH122


 xeen wrote:
You can’t take a daemon prince with belkor. Otherwise that looks pretty good.


Be'lakor would be in a Supreme Command detachment off by himself, so I think I'm good. Sorry, should have specified.

But in case I'm wrong, I'd be almost as happy with a Rendmaster and either an extra Bloodcrusher, or an extra Flesh Hound in two of the three squads.


Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/05 05:43:52


Post by: p5freak


 xeen wrote:
You can’t take a daemon prince with belkor. Otherwise that looks pretty good.


Yes you can. In another detachment.


Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/05 08:24:12


Post by: WisdomLS


I've had a decent read through, there's alot to like an a fair few annoyances to go with them. Some random thoughts :-)

I quite like the simple approach, powerful dataslates with not many special rules to wade through and combo together, if every codex was like this it would be a better game (and alot faster to play!) but I'm not sure of the competitive viability of this simple approach in a meta of powerhouses.

Love the Daemon saves, fluffy and powerful although the idea of Invincible Invulnerable saves is a bit stupid but that's the game we are in.

We can deepstrike again!!! and with decent tricks, love this.

Not a fan of the very bland re-roll 1s auras Greaters and heralds put out - why does every army have to have a captain and Lt now!

I dislike the lose of god abilities like Unstoppable ferocity/quicksilver etc... and mono faction bonuses like slaanesh advance and charge - the stat boosts look super good until you realise you don't have these abilities any more.
The bloodletter is a great case in point - you look at the stats and think ohhh an extra S & A but then realise they used to get them as a bonus for charging.

I really dislike the fix units of 10 troops and free banners/instruments. There are multiple little reasons - I have larger units than 10 and now I will have to remodel some, I like choice in army selection, fixed sizes and free upgrade takes that all away, it also makes it really hard to fill up the last few points in a list or jiggle stuff arond to free a few points up - just less user friendly.

Taking a single warlord trait in a book which offers you a choice of 25 different ones is bloody stupid!

Warpstorm table is fun and can be powerful if unreliable - I'm ok with that.

Units:

Belakor is amazing and an autotake to my mind - this is good but also annoying as I hate feeling silly for not including a unit, autotakes are very bad for the game.

Flamers are clearly underpointed, I fully expect a 5 or 10 point bump in the next round of points increases - if its 5 then they will still be taken en-mass which is very telling.

Greater daemons are all more survivable and generally more killy - the BT in particular looks great fun.

My Soulgrinders are badass finally, good at most things and not super expensive.

Skulltaker is genuinely a scary character.

Harp lady is just an all round toolbox.

added to those I'm liking fiends, flesh hounds, most troops, herald on screamer chariot and exalted flamer.

Nurgle look pretty poor to me unfortunatly - Slow, short ranged crap firepower, only ok in combat and nowhere near survivable enough to make up for those downsides - the plague drones look to be the best bet as they have decent movement but the rest just don't do enough.






Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/05 12:46:57


Post by: TwinPoleTheory


Daemon Princes don't appear to exclude each other anymore and as long as Be'lakor is in a Supreme Command detachment he doesn't prevent them from being in your army. So in theory, you could use the AoR for something like this, just an initial idea. Not sure it's particularly amazing, but might be fun for a casual game.

DP Tzeentch (Robe)
DP Khorne
DP Slaanesh

Plaguebearers
Nurglings
Daemonettes
Bloodletters

Exalted Flamer
Flamers (6)

Flesh Hounds (7)
Seekers (10)

Be'lakor (Supreme Command)

I think that satisfies all the requirements, the 2 Nurgle units allowing me a third from the others.


Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/05 13:41:24


Post by: BomBomHotdog


 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
...as long as Be'lakor is in a Supreme Command detachment he doesn't prevent them from being in your army. So in theory, you could use the AoR for something like this, just an initial idea. Not sure it's particularly amazing, but might be fun for a casual game.


If you are running it as Disciples of Be'Lakor you cannot run that list. It doesn't matter what detachment Be'Lakor is in as your ARMY cannot contain any Deamon Princes. If you were running that list as just Undivided that list would be valid.

Be'Lakor himself doesn't have the restriction but the AoR does.


Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/05 14:21:23


Post by: TwinPoleTheory


BomBomHotdog wrote:
 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
...as long as Be'lakor is in a Supreme Command detachment he doesn't prevent them from being in your army. So in theory, you could use the AoR for something like this, just an initial idea. Not sure it's particularly amazing, but might be fun for a casual game.


If you are running it as Disciples of Be'Lakor you cannot run that list. It doesn't matter what detachment Be'Lakor is in as your ARMY cannot contain any Deamon Princes. If you were running that list as just Undivided that list would be valid.

Be'Lakor himself doesn't have the restriction but the AoR does.


Ahh yes, oh well, I misread that, I guess there's no saving that AoR. It's just trash.


Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/05 22:10:30


Post by: Rugrud


 TonyH122 wrote:

Be'lakor would be in a Supreme Command detachment off by himself, so I think I'm good. Sorry, should have specified.

But in case I'm wrong, I'd be almost as happy with a Rendmaster and either an extra Bloodcrusher, or an extra Flesh Hound in two of the three squads.

If Belakor is in a supreme command, he must be your warlord so no warlord trait on the BT


Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/06 00:53:15


Post by: choppinboard


BomBomHotdog wrote:
ccs wrote:
It looks like my mono- Khorne force force only has access to two sources of Locus.
•Skarbrand
•Skull Alter
Of wich I own....neither. :(

I didn't overlook any did i?


Each god has access to 2 sources for Warp Locus. The named Greater Deamons along with terrain pieces for Khorne and Nurgle, Infernal Enrapturess for Slaanesh, and a warlord trait for Tzeentch that comes with an added bonus of 12" aura to re-roll morale. Of the two terrain pieces only Nurgle's can be setup outside of Deployment.
You can deep strike the Khorne one.


Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/06 02:25:25


Post by: ccs


Hmm, I didn't notice that.
Guess it's a good thing I picked one up this evening.


Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/06 05:22:25


Post by: Void__Dragon


Dogshit codex, possibly the worst all edition to be honest. There might be some way to finagle good lists out of it but it's a half-baked barebones beta version codex.


Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/06 07:25:21


Post by: Eldenfirefly


The new daemonic saves are interesting, but is it just me, or are there very few units that have a 4++ demonic save in melee ? Most Daemon units literally only have a 5++ save in melee. And most daemon troops other than Plague bearers have only 1 wound each model. They are so fragile in melee ...

For a mostly melee centric army, they have very little staying power in an actual melee fight outside of the Greater Daemons. Everything from blood letters to even plague bearers will fold easily and die in combat.

They are actually reasonably ok against shooting, because many units have 4++ or even better against shooting. But in melee, they are going to literally evaporate if you so much as charge them with anything decent.


Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/06 08:50:07


Post by: p5freak


Yes, i think its hilarious that khorne daemons have 4+ in melee. Its khorne, the god of melee. His minions should have more staying power in close combat.


Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/06 12:02:50


Post by: WisdomLS


Being more susceptible to melee attacks is straight from the fluff.
Ranged weapons or all kinds are often ignored by daemons but getting up close and physically interacting with them, using your anger and fear to slash and stab them, tear them apart with your bear hands, feel the blood, the blood.....

The point being that melee attacks have more of an emotional resonance and thus can more easily effect most daemons.
Its a nice fluffy rule that has interesting play to use and get around, I like it :-)


Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/06 14:11:58


Post by: chaos0xomega


JakeSiren wrote:
Burning Warpfire (max shots vs 11+ model units)


I don't consider Burning Warpfire to be super useful. 11+ model units are an increasing rarity, and where you do encounter them they are generally a wasted turn of shooting for something with a weapon profile like flamers of tzeentch thats also being buffed w/ +1 to wound rolls, re-rolls of 1. Thats a unit that really wants to scorch things like terminators, marines, and equivalents, etc. Not barbecue a blob of tzaangors or cultists.


Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/06 14:52:02


Post by: ccs


chaos0xomega wrote:
JakeSiren wrote:
Burning Warpfire (max shots vs 11+ model units)


I don't consider Burning Warpfire to be super useful. 11+ model units a re an increasing rarity, and where you do encounter them they are generally a wasted turn of shooting for something with a weapon profile like flamers of tzeentch thats also being buffed w/ +1 to wound rolls, re-rolls of 1. Thats a unit that really wants to scorch things like terminators, marines, and equivalents, etc. Not barbecue a blob of tzaangors or cultists.


Wanting to & being able to aren't always the same thing. Sometimes you need to settle for lesser victims...
Then there's need.
Sure, I WANT to BBQ those termites. But I NEED to shoot those Tzangors off that objective & prevent them from scoring.

As for cultists? Have you met those possessed cultists from the new CSM book? The ones with the new models & mixed base sizes? Those things pack plenty of punch. They might not be termies, but theyre plenty dangerous. So they need to die if they're in range.


Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/06 15:00:43


Post by: p5freak


6 flamers with +1 to wound will burn 20 tzaangors without that strat. Its 39 auto hits average, which wound on 2s. That 32 wounds at AP-2, 21 tzaangors average will die (5+ inv).

Same happens to the new cultists. You can save those 2CP for the strat for something actually useful. Ok, i forgot about the 6+ FNP, maybe some will survive.


Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/06 17:51:51


Post by: chaos0xomega


 p5freak wrote:
6 flamers with +1 to wound will burn 20 tzaangors without that strat. Its 39 auto hits average, which wound on 2s. That 32 wounds at AP-2, 21 tzaangors average will die (5+ inv).

Same happens to the new cultists. You can save those 2CP for the strat for something actually useful. Ok, i forgot about the 6+ FNP, maybe some will survive.


So, not only is the strat not useful against the types of targets that you actually want to obliterate, but its basically a waste of CP even against the targets that the strat works against because average dice rolls are already basically overkill.


Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/06 17:55:16


Post by: Arbiter_Shade


 Void__Dragon wrote:
Dogshit codex, possibly the worst all edition to be honest. There might be some way to finagle good lists out of it but it's a half-baked barebones beta version codex.


I am going to agree with this...there is plenty in the codex that will be able to compete I am sure but overall it is a garbage codex OR it is the beginning of a trend of depowering books to decrease the lethality of the game. Either way it sucks to be a demon player.

Nurgle just got screwed in this book. GW still seems to think that T5 is somehow relevant when the games wounding mechanics are so basic that it doesn't matter. Their staying power comes from being able to bring models back through multiple abilities which is easily countered by focusing firing down squads so they don't have the option. 10 man plague bearers is such a huge loss, why could it not be set to 20? I am still paying points for the models so why am I stuck at 10? Nurgle armies don't have speed or great offensive abilities, what they gained in this book are a couple of abilities that play with obsec but I am not convinced that is going to matter in the current meta.

Slaanesh is okay but again not very exciting. The chariots are kinda in a weird place now that everything in the army moves so fast, they are not faster than other options and they hit like a wet noodle but they are a steal for their W to point ratio. I am sure there is a list there with just spamming high wound chariots to control the board. Keeper of Secrets are still pretty decent, Fiends are hot garbage, Daemonettes are paper tigers and the herald type units are so bland.

Khorne is actually pretty decent all things considered with this book. Skarbrand and Skulltaker are pretty scary and using the Glorious Decapitation strat makes them even scarier. Bloodcrushers might be decent if not a little pricey, Bloodletters can actually do some decent damage in melee. Flesh Hounds and Skull Cannons are the only weak points IMO. I think that Khorne has the best Warp Storm abilities by far, I particularly enjoy Burning Terror due to it only costing 2 WS points. It isn't exactly the most powerful ability but if you have two points left over it is a nice little bonus.

Tzeentch seems to have gotten out alright too with the exception of Screamers. Flamers are the winners, absolutely but I think that the Burning Chariot might be a good choice. It takes the mediocre stat line of the Screamers melee but puts it on a tougher body with shooting and buff abilities. Kairos and Lords of Change are both nice and can do some serious work in the psychic phase. Decent strats, decent WS abilities, solid part of the codex.

The real winners of this codex are Be'lalkor and Soul Grinders. I am actually amazed how good Soul Grinders are now, only Tzeentch is a bit meh when it comes to Soul Grinders but I am not gonna trash talk a 4+ in melee. Be'lakor is pretty much mandatory in any list I plan on running. He hits hard, has some good defensive abilities, decent buffing and has Warp Locus. Be'lakor's weakest part is probably his psychic powers which are more due to them being decent instead of amazing.


Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/06 18:19:19


Post by: JNAProductions


Nurlge can't even regenerate properly-you can bring back d3 W1 models or heal a wounded model for d3 wounds.
Guess how many W1 models Nurgle has.


Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/06 18:41:34


Post by: Arbiter_Shade


 JNAProductions wrote:
Nurlge can't even regenerate properly-you can bring back d3 W1 models or heal a wounded model for d3 wounds.
Guess how many W1 models Nurgle has.


That is only the WS undivided ability, you can use the Feculent Gnarlmaw and the Horn of Nurgle's Rot to regenerate Plaguebearers. Now, is that enough to matter? I don't think so.


Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/06 18:50:23


Post by: TwinPoleTheory


 p5freak wrote:
6 flamers with +1 to wound will burn 20 tzaangors without that strat. Its 39 auto hits average, which wound on 2s. That 32 wounds at AP-2, 21 tzaangors average will die (5+ inv).


You can get them to S6, possibly S7 with Boon, and +1 to wound, at that point with the strat the number of things they can potentially burn down expands significantly. With Be'lakor in your list, you can teleport the squad and the Exalted Flamer into position for that as well.

It's a lot of setup though.


Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/06 20:05:58


Post by: p5freak


 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
 p5freak wrote:
6 flamers with +1 to wound will burn 20 tzaangors without that strat. Its 39 auto hits average, which wound on 2s. That 32 wounds at AP-2, 21 tzaangors average will die (5+ inv).


You can get them to S6, possibly S7 with Boon, and +1 to wound, at that point with the strat the number of things they can potentially burn down expands significantly. With Be'lakor in your list, you can teleport the squad and the Exalted Flamer into position for that as well.

It's a lot of setup though.


The strat requires 11+ models. What kind of unit has 11+ models that needs S6/7 and +1 to wound ? Is there a 20 model T6 unit that i dont know ?


Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/06 20:54:57


Post by: TwinPoleTheory


 p5freak wrote:
The strat requires 11+ models. What kind of unit has 11+ models that needs S6/7 and +1 to wound ? Is there a 20 model T6 unit that i dont know ?


Probably not much, didn't know it required 11+ models, my codex hasn't arrived yet. Sorry I offended you.

However, you can split fire on the unit however you want. So say a squad of Ork boyz gets the shots from 1-2 flamers, the other 4-5 roast their Battlewagon.

But yes, it's extremely situational, and a lot of setup.


Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/07 04:35:08


Post by: Void__Dragon


 WisdomLS wrote:
Being more susceptible to melee attacks is straight from the fluff.
Ranged weapons or all kinds are often ignored by daemons but getting up close and physically interacting with them, using your anger and fear to slash and stab them, tear them apart with your bear hands, feel the blood, the blood.....

The point being that melee attacks have more of an emotional resonance and thus can more easily effect most daemons.
Its a nice fluffy rule that has interesting play to use and get around, I like it :-)


Yeah it's very fluffy and interesting that my Slaanesh daemons are so fragile for their points that they fold in melee to anything which can either interrupt them or give them fights last because for some reason they lost fights first just like how every other Daemon lost their special rules.

Very interesting how the Great Unclean One is actually less durable (especially in melee) than he was before while also costing more points.

Even more interesting is how unless you're Tzeentch your psychic powers are unreliable and have Warp Charges that are at minimum a point too high.

Or how Tzeentch Daemons, the manifestations of the god of magic, have a whopping six spells which your psykers all have to share.

Or how pink horrors are fifteen points a model but also capped at ten models a fething squad meaning you have literally zero hope of making use of your splitting mechanic if anything even slightly dangerous in melee attacks you.

Or how we are literally the ONLY ninth edition codex who don't get to have more than one warlord trait.

Or how unlike the Chaos Marine codex we have literally no god-agnostic stratagems for no apparent reason at all.

Or how units like the Contorted Epitome got inexplicably nerfed.

The codex is fething garbage. Daemons are an NPC faction and GW have made that very clear.


Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/07 06:17:03


Post by: TonyH122


Can we stay on tactics here, and leave the hot takes to the Rumours forum? There's a reason people don't go there any more.


Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/07 06:43:43


Post by: Void__Dragon


 TonyH122 wrote:
Can we stay on tactics here, and leave the hot takes to the Rumours forum?


No.


Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/07 06:45:26


Post by: tneva82


Guess there's always rude people dragging things off topic...


Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/07 08:38:05


Post by: Eldenfirefly


My initial take, it feels like monster mash is almost the only way to play this codex. Bring at least three or more Greater Daemons/Be'lakor. They will charge up the board, take all the shooting, do all the fighting, do all the dying, and take up all of our opponent's attention.

The rest of the daemon units are there to play the mission, to do some minor disruption and that's about it. Mainly just play the mission.


Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/07 10:17:46


Post by: Krull


Ok, so the codex isn't that great, and surely isn't competitive like dark eldar, admech and so one.
But i was planning on starting daemons, something pulls me towards chaos. But i don't want to mingle it with chaos marines of knight.

so i want an honest advise: should i still start with daemons?
it sure is a money drain again so wanted to hear you guys out.
can you still win against competitive list?

i know it is a personal thing and probably everyone has a different opinion, but i thought trow it up and see where it goes.

So for me, i like all 4 gods, no specific preference
i did always thought daemons was psychic heavy, and since i rarely use psychic in my other armies i want some now so Khorne falls a bit behind although i like the idea behind them
my first list idea of 2k point i wanted to work to was something like this:
Spoiler:

So nurgle in different det. because i like the WS effects the most
poxbringers buffs plaguebearers
beast harass, distract, maybe deepstrike in, i duno but liked the rules.
plaguedrones a bit the same but are faster. maybe late game fly to objectives if they still live

other detachment for access to undivided WS effects
tzeentch for psychic and because i like the greater daemon model the most
the horrors do back line objectives

changecaster buffs flamers, flamers hopefully melt stuff
flesh hounds because i like the models and can be anoying
screamers are more for late game objectives

soul grinder for some heavy shooting and moving up to wack stuff (therefor khorne, actually don't know what would be best for him, maybe tzeentch for better cc safe)
no slaanesh because are more glass cannons and don't like that so much


  • **+++ Daemons first thought (Warhammer 40,000 9th Edition) [100 PL, 2CP, 1,994pts] +++**

    **++ Patrol Detachment -2CP (Chaos - Daemons) [36 PL, -3CP, 745pts] ++**

    **+ Configuration +**
    **Chaos Allegiance:** Nurgle
    **Detachment Command Cost [-2CP]**
    **+ HQ +**
    **Poxbringer [5 PL, -1CP, 90pts]:** Relics of the Great Garden, Shrivelling Pox, Tome of a Thousand Poxes, Virulent Blessing

    **+ Troops +**
    **Nurglings [3 PL, 60pts]**
    . **3x Nurgling Swarms:** 3x Diseased claws and teeth

    **Plaguebearers [7 PL, 150pts]:** Daemonic icon, Instrument of Chaos
    . **9x Plaguebearer:** 9x Plaguesword

    **Plaguebearers [7 PL, 150pts]:** Daemonic icon, Instrument of Chaos

    . **9x Plaguebearer:** 9x Plaguesword

    **+ Elites +**
    **Beasts of Nurgle [4 PL, 80pts]:** Beast of Nurgle
    **Beasts of Nurgle [4 PL, 80pts]:** Beast of Nurgle


    **+ Fast Attack +**
    **Plague Drones [6 PL, 135pts]:** Daemonic icon, Instrument of Chaos
    . **2x Plague Drone w/ foul mouthparts:** 2x Death's heads, 2x Foul mouthparts, 2x Plaguesword
    . **Plaguebringer:** Foul mouthparts


    **++ Patrol Detachment 0CP (Chaos - Daemons) [64 PL, 5CP, 1,249pts] ++**
    **+ Configuration +*
    **Battle Size [6CP]:** 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)
    **Chaos Allegiance:** Chaos Undivided
    **Detachment Command Cost**
    **Game Type:** 4. Chapter Approved: War Zone Nephilim

    **+ HQ +**
    **Changecaster [4 PL, 80pts]:** Gaze of Fate, Ritual dagger

    **Lord of Change [16 PL, -1CP, 330pts]:** Infernal Flames, Infernal Gateway, Nexus of Fate, Relics of the Impossible Fortress, Rod of Sorcery, The Impossible Robe, Treason of Tzeentch, Warlord

    **+ Troops +**
    **Blue Horrors [3 PL, 70pts]**
    . **10x Blue Horror:** 10x Coruscating flames

    **Pink Horrors [7 PL, 150pts]**

    . **9x Pink Horror:** 9x Coruscating flames

    **+ Elites +**
    **Exalted Flamer [4 PL, 75pts]**

    **Flamers [6 PL, 150pts]:** Pyrocaster
    . **5x Flamer:** 5x Flickering flames

    **+ Fast Attack +*
    **Flesh Hounds [10 PL, 114pts]:** Gore Hound
    . **5x Flesh Hound:** 5x Gore-drenched fangs

    **Screamers [4 PL, 90pts]**
    . **3x Screamer:** 3x Lamprey bite

    **+ Heavy Support +**
    **Soul Grinder [10 PL, 190pts]:** Mark of Khorne, Warpsword



  • Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/07 16:07:13


    Post by: tneva82


    Pure khorne. How does that look like? Have 2 bloodthirsters, skarbrand, 40 bloodletters, 3 crushers, cannon and soul grinder plus skulltaker but that pushes me above 2k.

    How that sounds like? Can it work at all?


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/08 02:45:22


    Post by: Eldenfirefly


    tneva82 wrote:
    Pure khorne. How does that look like? Have 2 bloodthirsters, skarbrand, 40 bloodletters, 3 crushers, cannon and soul grinder plus skulltaker but that pushes me above 2k.

    How that sounds like? Can it work at all?



    Yup, the list sounds good. I don't have the models. But Mono Khorne daemons looks like the most viable one to me. The rest of the mono gods just don't seem viable for one reason or another. (Nurgle too slow, yet still fragile, Slanaash has no teeth, Tzeentch just folds in melee with 6++ saves).

    If you want to save points, just take two cannons instead of one cannon and one Soul Grinder, or take one less blood letter squad and buff up the number of crushers.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/08 08:02:41


    Post by: tneva82


    Don't have more cannons and not planning on buying yet(budget has it's limits ). Alas my options are pretty much skulltaker instead of unit of letters or crushers. I MIGHT have 1, maybe 2 more bloodcrushers. Had some spares I think though might be missing parts but as in AOS individual's are irrelevant haven't paid attention.

    Saving points isn't needed. With 2 exalted upgrades I end up with about 40-50 pts under anyway. So extra bloodcrusher if I have might be handy...


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/08 15:20:38


    Post by: godswildcard


    I know it's not good (like, at all), but I'm wondering how to set up a 'Disciples of Belakor' AoR.

    I'm really doing it primarily for the painting project it presents with Belakor being a dark centerpiece and brightly-colored demons surrounding him. I also want to add a patrol detachment of Demonkin CSM (I'm thinking a Master of Possession, CSM Squad, Possessed Squad, and a squad of havocs).

    I will only play this army in very casual settings, so raw power isn't a big deal (and the restrictions aren't *quite* as back-breaking)

    So what's the best way to do this? It's looking like I'll be taking Belakor (of course), one squad each of Horrors, PBs, Bls, Demonettes, and then Flamers, Skull Cannon, and, I dunno, maybe a BoN and some fast Demonette cav. How does that sound? What heralds should I include?

    Thanks in advance!



    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/08 16:03:55


    Post by: TwinPoleTheory


     godswildcard wrote:
    I know it's not good (like, at all), but I'm wondering how to set up a 'Disciples of Belakor' AoR.

    I'm really doing it primarily for the painting project it presents with Belakor being a dark centerpiece and brightly-colored demons surrounding him. I also want to add a patrol detachment of Demonkin CSM (I'm thinking a Master of Possession, CSM Squad, Possessed Squad, and a squad of havocs).

    I will only play this army in very casual settings, so raw power isn't a big deal (and the restrictions aren't *quite* as back-breaking)

    So what's the best way to do this? It's looking like I'll be taking Belakor (of course), one squad each of Horrors, PBs, Bls, Demonettes, and then Flamers, Skull Cannon, and, I dunno, maybe a BoN and some fast Demonette cav. How does that sound? What heralds should I include?

    Thanks in advance!



    Honestly, the more I think about it I think the best option is a CSM Battalion with Be'lakor in a Supreme Command detachment. Be'lakor gives you access to all the daemon strats, which will only work on him, which is fine, CSM will give you access to durable/flexible infantry options and the non-marked/non-legion CSM strats, as well as the AoR strats for both. This setup at least mitigates the detachment tax in Nephilim and should at least provide an avenue to a functional version of the AoR.

    At least that's my theory currently, it's probably horribly wrong in various ways I haven't considered yet.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/09 04:10:51


    Post by: p5freak


    If belakor is in that 25% detachment the daemonic pact rule has no effect.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/09 14:13:39


    Post by: TwinPoleTheory


    One of the few good things about the AoR is that you can work around the detachment tax entirely.

    Since you can have a CSM Battalion and put Be'lakor in a Supreme Command detachment. The other thing about Be'lakor is his command re-roll and re-roll 1s aura applies to any DoB unit (excluding Vehicles), which is one of the only ways I can find to give Possessed and Obliterators any kind of re-roll.

    Ultimately, one of the army's primary goals is to deliver Be'lakor to melee at his topline profile, so it should probably be tailored to accomplishing that task. Securing at least 1 source of Warp Locus and getting it across the table intact to deliver Be'lakor on turn 2 is the goal, this could be as simple as an MoP that spends two turns advancing behind some faster moving CSM units (Possessed most likely).


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/09 15:16:15


    Post by: ccs


    Only owning Khorne stuff, i only briefly glanced through other stuff in this Codex.
    Can Belakor make use of any factions warp locus?


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/09 15:21:12


    Post by: TwinPoleTheory


    ccs wrote:
    Only owning Khorne stuff, i only briefly glanced through other stuff in this Codex.
    Can Belakor make use of any factions warp locus?


    Yes, he has all the Legiones Daemonica faction keyword traits. Additionally, he is a Warp Locus himself, for all of them.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/10 00:02:26


    Post by: ccs


     TwinPoleTheory wrote:
    ccs wrote:
    Only owning Khorne stuff, i only briefly glanced through other stuff in this Codex.
    Can Belakor make use of any factions warp locus?


    Yes, he has all the Legiones Daemonica faction keyword traits. Additionally, he is a Warp Locus himself, for all of them.


    Cool. He's not really on the shopping list, but now he's moved into the "if I find one cheap enough...." list.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/10 15:07:39


    Post by: tneva82


    First outing vs blood angels was a win. Basically i got to attack i deleted unit. Exception being 2 bloodletters not killing 4 marines and transhuman saving 1 outrider.

    Trio of bloodthirsters soaked up focus and took out units as needed. Decider(apart from poor secondary choice. Blade of sanguinus tricky at best and choosing skulltaker secured him flat 0) was t2 when bloodletters got to use skarbrand to make 6" charge to his home objective.

    Did lose all my models barring skulltaker that hid at home game all game scoring 2 vp per action and denying him secondary

    Enjoyed it. Blood flew.

    Next sunday vs deathwatch

    Warpstorm was useful first 2 turns but after that usefulnness dropped a lot. Too close to benefit from -1, not enough to res and i was deleting units at will so attack not needed.

    Cp i had in abundance especially as 1st round was quiet.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/12 05:50:23


    Post by: Resk


    Played my first game with the new codex over the weekend. 1500pt game where I took mono Khorne against a CoB list with Abaddon and Termie brick. Tabled my opponent by bottom of turn 3.

    My list was:

    Bloodthirster: Master of the Blood Tide, Devastating Blow, Ar'gath the King of Blades, warlord. [-2CP]
    Bloodthirster: Indomitable Onslaught, Blood-drinker talisman. [-1CP]
    Skulltaker
    4 x 10 Bloodletters
    2 x 5 Flesh Hounds

    The murderthirster did just that, murdered almost everything it came into contact with. It deleted the Termie brick in 2 fight phases, though in hindsight I should have been using the sweeping attack profile for the 3 damage ignoring the FNP.

    The new Bloodletters are great. With the daemon save and T4 they are surprisingly durable. Also LD debuffs + being able to deepstrike at a units LD is fantastic for dropping on low LD units.



    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/12 07:01:24


    Post by: p5freak


    Also played two games. Bloodthirster tank is unkillable with blood drinker talisman, brazen hide, indomitable onslaught. Bloodletters deepstriking within 6" of belakor is great. Belakor isnt as tough as you think he is. He died battleround 3/4, but also soaked up many, many attacks which would have gone somewhere else.
    Not convinced by lord of change, its a lot of points for three psychic powers. The tzeentch discipline powers are quite weak. Flamers are more than broken, they are OP³. 6 models will pretty much kill anything. I am 100% sure competitive lists will run 18 of them. Just make sure you kill what you shoot at, and you cant be charged. They die fast in melee, and cant shoot anymore because they dont have pistols anymore. Troop choices are overpriced, except for bloodletters. Blue horrors not having obsec is ridiculous.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/12 08:14:34


    Post by: WisdomLS


    Yes I'm really not sure what they were thinking with flamers -they are fast, survivable and put out stupidly good firepower for not many points?

    Either they had an awful lot of models they wanted to shift or they are just really bad at their jobs and have no clue about unit balance - I don't know which is worse!

    I fully expect a 10pt point increase and I still think they will be perfectly playable after that which shows what a problem they are.

    The problem is that if they increase the points so dramatically on our best unit then they had better drop some points elsewhere!

    I find screamers really overcosted, similar with bloodcrushers and beasts. Most of the troops could do with being a point or maybe two less as well.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/12 12:37:26


    Post by: p5freak


    Screamer are pathetic, i already forgot them.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/12 14:01:59


    Post by: TwinPoleTheory


    For those that played some games with the new codex this weekend, first off, sounds like things worked well, congrats. Secondly, how much stuff did you keep off table to start the game and what was your rationale/approach to bringing it on table or keeping it off table?


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/12 14:32:01


    Post by: tneva82


     TwinPoleTheory wrote:
    For those that played some games with the new codex this weekend, first off, sounds like things worked well, congrats. Secondly, how much stuff did you keep off table to start the game and what was your rationale/approach to bringing it on table or keeping it off table?


    2 bloodthirsters and 2 bloodletters(so pretty much max i could. 1 unit and 1 pl more could be). . Bloodletters are there more likely where needed(and won't get gunned down by inceptors/aggressors) and bloodthirsters are safe from meltas. And again get where needed. With 8" charges and skarbrand warp locus felt safe enough

    (and getting easy charges isn't easier automatically if opponent plays cagey and shoot at me meanwhile waiting army bonus trigger t3)

    I was also less drops even without reserves so if i put thirster somewhere he can put ideal counter around there and prime targets elsewhere.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/12 15:27:54


    Post by: Arbiter_Shade


    Played a bit over the last week and my results have been radically different from other posters, but I primarily play Nurgle and it seems the other two who have posted play Khorne which definitely seems to be the winner in this codex.

    Nurgle is just sad, they are not good at anything. I can see that the intent was for them to have multiple ways to deny ObSec and play with morale but even when I played heavily into those strengths it just never panned out. Being able to remove an opponents ObSec doesn't mean jack all when I can't get bodies onto objectives.

    Unit by unit break down as I have played every option for Nurgle;

    HQ:

    Belakor is just an absolute beast. His most relevant combat stats don't degrade as he takes damage, he has a ton of defensive buffs in Shadow Form, he gives himself and all other daemons reroll 1 tohit and Lord of Torment stacking with the general Daemonic rule is really nice. Even if your opponent ignores combat attrition modifiers, AKA Space Marines, you still give everything in 6" -2 LD which makes it so much easier to take off another model at least. His psychic abilities are a bit meh so I guess that is the one bad thing I can say.

    GUO are just terrible. Absolutely garbage units that I am not even sure I would bring to the table again. Yes, I can make a GUO that can tank my opponents entire army worth of shooting. T10 24W -1D that regenerates wounds equal to the round number is just a big sack of distraction carnifex. The problem is that they are slow, they don't hit very hard when they get there and all of their best melee abilities degrade as they go. I never once felt like I benefited from having these guys.

    The herald level models are all pretty much the same so there isn't much to say other than the fact that the Poxbringer is the best, Scrivener is second best and the Bilepiper is just terribad. Poxbringer can make your Plaguebearers pretty damn scary when they are hitting at damage 3 is nasty....kinda. The problem is that you are relying on Plaguebearers to get across the table and with almost everything having AoC -2 AP doesn't cut it.

    Epidemius isn't worth it. I honestly never felt like I didn't have enough WS points for what I wanted to do or at the very least never felt like 1 more was going to make a difference.

    Hoticulus Slimux was actually a pretty good unit. Beast Handler being a 9" buff is nice because I think it is best used on Plague Drones and he hits decently hard in melee. His ability to screw with area terrain is a nice little bonus to an already solid platform so I was happy with the whole package.

    Troops:

    Nurglings, just why? I don't care about ObSec, that can be worked around in numerous ways with Nurgle. Not taking up the troop role makes them just so unappealing. The only reason to take them is for the troop tax but since they don't count as troops why bother? Yes they can grab objectives early on in the game but you are spending a lot of points for a unit that will lose the objective to anything with ObSec in the first turn and they give your opponent a unit in charge range to slingshot into melee sooner.

    Plaguebearers are just alright. They are not as resilient as I would want, even with buffs, they are slow and they don't hit that hard except when buffed up by a Poxbringer. The issue is that they are limited to 10 man squads so even with all of those buffs you are looking at about 21 attacks at full strength hitting on fours, threes with a Scriviner. T5 2W 4+ is a decently resilient state line but not enough that my opponents couldn't take them out with little trouble. The regenerative abilities you can use to bring them back are a waste of time in my experience; if your opponent knows you have those abilities all they need to do is focus each squad down just like Necrons.

    Elites:

    Beast of Nurgle are too expensive. Not much else to say, don't mind having one or two as back field objective holders but generally I didn't care much for them.

    Fast Attack:

    Plague Drones are actually my one darling unit that I love. They are Plaguebearer Core so they can benefit from all of the buffs from the heralds. Taken in squads of 5 you can use Revolting Constitution on them for 1CP and due to them being T6 5W 4+ at range they require some anti-tank firepower to put down and giving them transhuman actually makes sense. They don't hit that hard but nothing in the army really does, so I don't knock em for that.

    Heavy:

    Soul Grinder rocks. Soul Grinder is life. Take more Soul Grinders.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/12 17:35:39


    Post by: Vatsetis


    As allies to Black Legion CSM would a Khorne DP and 10 bloodletters be usefull?


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/12 19:20:47


    Post by: EightFoldPath


    It depends if you can't find a better use within CSM for the 2 CP for the patrol and 1 CP for a relic on the Khorne DP.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/12 19:35:24


    Post by: Vatsetis


    Good point 3Cps seems a big tax for BL in nephilim.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/12 23:56:26


    Post by: Rydria


    Has anyone played Mono slaanesh yet and how did it playout for you ?


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/13 09:07:20


    Post by: WisdomLS


    Arbiter_Shade wrote:
    Played a bit over the last week and my results have been radically different from other posters, but I primarily play Nurgle and it seems the other two who have posted play Khorne which definitely seems to be the winner in this codex.

    Nurgle is just sad, they are not good at anything. I can see that the intent was for them to have multiple ways to deny ObSec and play with morale but even when I played heavily into those strengths it just never panned out. Being able to remove an opponents ObSec doesn't mean jack all when I can't get bodies onto objectives.

    Unit by unit break down as I have played every option for Nurgle;

    HQ:

    Belakor is just an absolute beast. His most relevant combat stats don't degrade as he takes damage, he has a ton of defensive buffs in Shadow Form, he gives himself and all other daemons reroll 1 tohit and Lord of Torment stacking with the general Daemonic rule is really nice. Even if your opponent ignores combat attrition modifiers, AKA Space Marines, you still give everything in 6" -2 LD which makes it so much easier to take off another model at least. His psychic abilities are a bit meh so I guess that is the one bad thing I can say.

    GUO are just terrible. Absolutely garbage units that I am not even sure I would bring to the table again. Yes, I can make a GUO that can tank my opponents entire army worth of shooting. T10 24W -1D that regenerates wounds equal to the round number is just a big sack of distraction carnifex. The problem is that they are slow, they don't hit very hard when they get there and all of their best melee abilities degrade as they go. I never once felt like I benefited from having these guys.

    The herald level models are all pretty much the same so there isn't much to say other than the fact that the Poxbringer is the best, Scrivener is second best and the Bilepiper is just terribad. Poxbringer can make your Plaguebearers pretty damn scary when they are hitting at damage 3 is nasty....kinda. The problem is that you are relying on Plaguebearers to get across the table and with almost everything having AoC -2 AP doesn't cut it.

    Epidemius isn't worth it. I honestly never felt like I didn't have enough WS points for what I wanted to do or at the very least never felt like 1 more was going to make a difference.

    Hoticulus Slimux was actually a pretty good unit. Beast Handler being a 9" buff is nice because I think it is best used on Plague Drones and he hits decently hard in melee. His ability to screw with area terrain is a nice little bonus to an already solid platform so I was happy with the whole package.

    Troops:

    Nurglings, just why? I don't care about ObSec, that can be worked around in numerous ways with Nurgle. Not taking up the troop role makes them just so unappealing. The only reason to take them is for the troop tax but since they don't count as troops why bother? Yes they can grab objectives early on in the game but you are spending a lot of points for a unit that will lose the objective to anything with ObSec in the first turn and they give your opponent a unit in charge range to slingshot into melee sooner.

    Plaguebearers are just alright. They are not as resilient as I would want, even with buffs, they are slow and they don't hit that hard except when buffed up by a Poxbringer. The issue is that they are limited to 10 man squads so even with all of those buffs you are looking at about 21 attacks at full strength hitting on fours, threes with a Scriviner. T5 2W 4+ is a decently resilient state line but not enough that my opponents couldn't take them out with little trouble. The regenerative abilities you can use to bring them back are a waste of time in my experience; if your opponent knows you have those abilities all they need to do is focus each squad down just like Necrons.

    Elites:

    Beast of Nurgle are too expensive. Not much else to say, don't mind having one or two as back field objective holders but generally I didn't care much for them.

    Fast Attack:

    Plague Drones are actually my one darling unit that I love. They are Plaguebearer Core so they can benefit from all of the buffs from the heralds. Taken in squads of 5 you can use Revolting Constitution on them for 1CP and due to them being T6 5W 4+ at range they require some anti-tank firepower to put down and giving them transhuman actually makes sense. They don't hit that hard but nothing in the army really does, so I don't knock em for that.

    Heavy:

    Soul Grinder rocks. Soul Grinder is life. Take more Soul Grinders.


    This all seems pretty on point to me, nurgle is just too slow, doesn't hit hard and isn't tanky enough to make up for those drawbacks.

    The great unclean one is shocking, just look at the special rule section of his datasheet - no unique rules! Its a greater daemon, surly it should have something unique and special about it.

    The Drones and Grinders really are the core of any nurgle lists as they can get places and kill things but army speed and flexibility/tricksyness is key in 9th and nurgle just doesnt have any.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/13 12:47:34


    Post by: whembly


    What secondary seems effective for demons?

    I'm sorta struggling here, outside of taking the defaults (Assassinate, Grind & Behind Enemy Lines).

    To give you an idea of what I can brings (these are models that I own):
    Spoiler:
    +++ Deamon (Warhammer 40,000 9th Edition) [106 PL, 2,000pts, 1CP] +++

    ++ Vanguard Detachment -3CP (Chaos - Daemons) ++

    + No Force Org Slot +
    Changecaster: Bolt of Change, Gaze of Fate, Ritual dagger

    + HQ +
    Bloodthirster: Blood-drinker Talisman, Great axe of Khorne, Indomitable Onslaught, Relics of the Brass Citadel

    Lord of Change: Architect of Deception, Baleful sword, Bolt of Change, Infernal Gateway, Relics of the Impossible Fortress, The Impossible Robe, Treason of Tzeentch

    + Troops +
    Nurglings
    . 4x Nurgling Swarms: 4x Diseased claws and teeth

    Nurglings
    . 4x Nurgling Swarms: 4x Diseased claws and teeth

    Nurglings
    . 4x Nurgling Swarms: 4x Diseased claws and teeth

    + Elites +
    Exalted Flamer

    Exalted Flamer

    Exalted Flamer

    Flamers: Pyrocaster
    . 5x Flamer: 5x Flickering flames

    + Heavy Support +
    Soul Grinder: Mark of Nurgle, Warpsword

    ++ Supreme Command Detachment 0CP (Chaos - Daemons) ++

    + Primarch | Daemon Primarch | Supreme Commander +
    Be'lakor: Betraying Shades, Pall of Despair, Warlord


    BATTLEFIELD SUPREMACY
    I think I'm digging REALITY REBELS, with nurglings securing at least 2 table quarters (and objectives) for most games, and then move the Soulgrinder to center for the other scoring (Changercaster will go here for warp ritual would also count here too for this secondary if 'grinder has to move away from center).

    I know the nurglings and this secondary sorta tees up this army if my opponents wants to chase them down in 1st turn, but that's okay with me as this army has 3 (4*) big melee boppers who wants to be in hand to hand.

    *I still think a LoC with impossible robe with maelific bale sword is a decent threat.

    WARPCRAFT
    With Changecaster, I'm thinking of this model sticks with the Soulgrinder generally 6" to board's center to do WARP RITUAL (or if my opponent has lots of characters, pick PSYHIC INTERROGATION). I brought Changecaster as I don't want to waste a LoC/Be'lakor psyhic round on actions.

    As to the 3rd Secondary, I'm really struggling as I only have 4 infantry units... I would probably pick one of Assassinate, Grind them down or Retrieve Nephilim Data. With Retrieve, I would likely deepstrike 2 Exalted Flamers to drop one turn 2 and other turn 3 to complete that action.

    I still need to wrap my head our the mission scoring to see if this army still works, but I think I'm on the right track.

    Any feedback is appreciated.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/13 13:50:10


    Post by: VladimirHerzog


    Played one game with the codex and on one hand, i feel like if we had more codexes of that powerlevel/complexity the game would be better.

    But in the context of 9th edition where everything is cranked to 11, it feels really lackluster.

    I really feel as if theres a couple pages missing in the dex.

    Where are the undivided strats
    Where are the legion traits equivalents (monogod bonuses)


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/13 15:22:53


    Post by: WisdomLS


     VladimirHerzog wrote:
    Played one game with the codex and on one hand, i feel like if we had more codexes of that powerlevel/complexity the game would be better.

    But in the context of 9th edition where everything is cranked to 11, it feels really lackluster.

    I really feel as if theres a couple pages missing in the dex.

    Where are the undivided strats
    Where are the legion traits equivalents (monogod bonuses)


    Totally agree, the codex is on a great level if taken out of context with the current meta armies, a much toned down level of stackable rules and interactions, more power given to simple stats on the datasheet - the game would be much improved if future books were of a similar level (obviously they are not - I've read the voltan stuff!!).

    The lack on monogod bnonuses and ability to take WL traits really stands out as very strange in this edition. Where is a nurgle rule for being extra resilient or a Khorne rule for hitting harder on the charge - just seems to be missing.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/13 15:28:23


    Post by: whembly


     WisdomLS wrote:
     VladimirHerzog wrote:
    Played one game with the codex and on one hand, i feel like if we had more codexes of that powerlevel/complexity the game would be better.

    But in the context of 9th edition where everything is cranked to 11, it feels really lackluster.

    I really feel as if theres a couple pages missing in the dex.

    Where are the undivided strats
    Where are the legion traits equivalents (monogod bonuses)


    Totally agree, the codex is on a great level if taken out of context with the current meta armies, a much toned down level of stackable rules and interactions, more power given to simple stats on the datasheet - the game would be much improved if future books were of a similar level (obviously they are not - I've read the voltan stuff!!).

    The lack on monogod bnonuses and ability to take WL traits really stands out as very strange in this edition. Where is a nurgle rule for being extra resilient or a Khorne rule for hitting harder on the charge - just seems to be missing.

    I'm hoping to see that expanded by Army of Renown in some future supplement.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/13 16:54:21


    Post by: Arbiter_Shade


     whembly wrote:
    What secondary seems effective for demons?

    I'm sorta struggling here, outside of taking the defaults (Assassinate, Grind & Behind Enemy Lines).

    To give you an idea of what I can brings (these are models that I own):
    Spoiler:
    +++ Deamon (Warhammer 40,000 9th Edition) [106 PL, 2,000pts, 1CP] +++

    ++ Vanguard Detachment -3CP (Chaos - Daemons) ++

    + No Force Org Slot +
    Changecaster: Bolt of Change, Gaze of Fate, Ritual dagger

    + HQ +
    Bloodthirster: Blood-drinker Talisman, Great axe of Khorne, Indomitable Onslaught, Relics of the Brass Citadel

    Lord of Change: Architect of Deception, Baleful sword, Bolt of Change, Infernal Gateway, Relics of the Impossible Fortress, The Impossible Robe, Treason of Tzeentch

    + Troops +
    Nurglings
    . 4x Nurgling Swarms: 4x Diseased claws and teeth

    Nurglings
    . 4x Nurgling Swarms: 4x Diseased claws and teeth

    Nurglings
    . 4x Nurgling Swarms: 4x Diseased claws and teeth

    + Elites +
    Exalted Flamer

    Exalted Flamer

    Exalted Flamer

    Flamers: Pyrocaster
    . 5x Flamer: 5x Flickering flames

    + Heavy Support +
    Soul Grinder: Mark of Nurgle, Warpsword

    ++ Supreme Command Detachment 0CP (Chaos - Daemons) ++

    + Primarch | Daemon Primarch | Supreme Commander +
    Be'lakor: Betraying Shades, Pall of Despair, Warlord


    BATTLEFIELD SUPREMACY
    I think I'm digging REALITY REBELS, with nurglings securing at least 2 table quarters (and objectives) for most games, and then move the Soulgrinder to center for the other scoring (Changercaster will go here for warp ritual would also count here too for this secondary if 'grinder has to move away from center).

    I know the nurglings and this secondary sorta tees up this army if my opponents wants to chase them down in 1st turn, but that's okay with me as this army has 3 (4*) big melee boppers who wants to be in hand to hand.

    *I still think a LoC with impossible robe with maelific bale sword is a decent threat.

    WARPCRAFT
    With Changecaster, I'm thinking of this model sticks with the Soulgrinder generally 6" to board's center to do WARP RITUAL (or if my opponent has lots of characters, pick PSYHIC INTERROGATION). I brought Changecaster as I don't want to waste a LoC/Be'lakor psyhic round on actions.

    As to the 3rd Secondary, I'm really struggling as I only have 4 infantry units... I would probably pick one of Assassinate, Grind them down or Retrieve Nephilim Data. With Retrieve, I would likely deepstrike 2 Exalted Flamers to drop one turn 2 and other turn 3 to complete that action.

    I still need to wrap my head our the mission scoring to see if this army still works, but I think I'm on the right track.

    Any feedback is appreciated.


    A couple of things here, first the most glaring is that your list is not legal in the new codex. Nurglings do not count towards compulsory slots. Second Reality Rebels requires you to have MORE demon units in each quarter than your opponent so I think you are better off just going for engage.

    That is the biggest problem with all of the Daemon secondaries, they are like generic secondaries but worse. Reality Rebels is just a worse Engage, Nourished by Terror is just a worst No Prisoners, and Despoilers of Reality is just uniquely bad.

    Warpcraft are all fine choices for the army, depending on what your opponent brings. Khorne being the only one that can take abhor the witch, but does it only matters against certain armies. Your basic "kill <blank>" secondaries are probably just gonna be your best bet.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/13 17:48:12


    Post by: tneva82


    Reality rebels opponent needs to have more to deny. You have 1, he needs 2.you have 2, he needs 3. You win ties

    Getting 1 unit to center plus your home nets as much as engage holding 3. You can be in less areas at once netting same so less spreading thin. Especially good when objectives lead toward fight in center where units don't count for engage. Also any random model adds up to unit total unlike engage.


    It's not all bad. Maybe if terrain and objectives say "don't go center"


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/13 18:35:44


    Post by: whembly


    Arbiter_Shade wrote:
     whembly wrote:
    What secondary seems effective for demons?

    I'm sorta struggling here, outside of taking the defaults (Assassinate, Grind & Behind Enemy Lines).

    To give you an idea of what I can brings (these are models that I own):
    Spoiler:
    +++ Deamon (Warhammer 40,000 9th Edition) [106 PL, 2,000pts, 1CP] +++

    ++ Vanguard Detachment -3CP (Chaos - Daemons) ++

    + No Force Org Slot +
    Changecaster: Bolt of Change, Gaze of Fate, Ritual dagger

    + HQ +
    Bloodthirster: Blood-drinker Talisman, Great axe of Khorne, Indomitable Onslaught, Relics of the Brass Citadel

    Lord of Change: Architect of Deception, Baleful sword, Bolt of Change, Infernal Gateway, Relics of the Impossible Fortress, The Impossible Robe, Treason of Tzeentch

    + Troops +
    Nurglings
    . 4x Nurgling Swarms: 4x Diseased claws and teeth

    Nurglings
    . 4x Nurgling Swarms: 4x Diseased claws and teeth

    Nurglings
    . 4x Nurgling Swarms: 4x Diseased claws and teeth

    + Elites +
    Exalted Flamer

    Exalted Flamer

    Exalted Flamer

    Flamers: Pyrocaster
    . 5x Flamer: 5x Flickering flames

    + Heavy Support +
    Soul Grinder: Mark of Nurgle, Warpsword

    ++ Supreme Command Detachment 0CP (Chaos - Daemons) ++

    + Primarch | Daemon Primarch | Supreme Commander +
    Be'lakor: Betraying Shades, Pall of Despair, Warlord


    BATTLEFIELD SUPREMACY
    I think I'm digging REALITY REBELS, with nurglings securing at least 2 table quarters (and objectives) for most games, and then move the Soulgrinder to center for the other scoring (Changercaster will go here for warp ritual would also count here too for this secondary if 'grinder has to move away from center).

    I know the nurglings and this secondary sorta tees up this army if my opponents wants to chase them down in 1st turn, but that's okay with me as this army has 3 (4*) big melee boppers who wants to be in hand to hand.

    *I still think a LoC with impossible robe with maelific bale sword is a decent threat.

    WARPCRAFT
    With Changecaster, I'm thinking of this model sticks with the Soulgrinder generally 6" to board's center to do WARP RITUAL (or if my opponent has lots of characters, pick PSYHIC INTERROGATION). I brought Changecaster as I don't want to waste a LoC/Be'lakor psyhic round on actions.

    As to the 3rd Secondary, I'm really struggling as I only have 4 infantry units... I would probably pick one of Assassinate, Grind them down or Retrieve Nephilim Data. With Retrieve, I would likely deepstrike 2 Exalted Flamers to drop one turn 2 and other turn 3 to complete that action.

    I still need to wrap my head our the mission scoring to see if this army still works, but I think I'm on the right track.

    Any feedback is appreciated.


    A couple of things here, first the most glaring is that your list is not legal in the new codex. Nurglings do not count towards compulsory slots.

    This is a Vanguard detachment, so no compulsory troops needed.

    Second Reality Rebels requires you to have MORE demon units in each quarter than your opponent so I think you are better off just going for engage.

    I thought of that, but engage requires you to hit at least 3 quarters, whereas with Rebels you can at least score 1 quarter rather easily, and potentially 2.

    Another bonus with Rebels is that other scoring by being in the table's center and with 4 big buffy units available, should be doable to score.

    Furthermore, focusing on trying to score on those 2 quarters via Rebels would entice my opponent to get close with me if the desire is to deny me that objective. With 'thirster/be'lakor/'grinder... they WANT to be in melee.

    That is the biggest problem with all of the Daemon secondaries, they are like generic secondaries but worse. Reality Rebels is just a worse Engage, Nourished by Terror is just a worst No Prisoners, and Despoilers of Reality is just uniquely bad.

    I think I disagree on Reality Rebels and it should see more play. (I prefer it over Engage for this army). But, agreed on the rest .

    Warpcraft are all fine choices for the army, depending on what your opponent brings. Khorne being the only one that can take abhor the witch, but does it only matters against certain armies. Your basic "kill <blank>" secondaries are probably just gonna be your best bet.

    Yeah, totally see that.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/13 21:19:17


    Post by: Vortenger


    The codex leans heavily on greater daemons, but Votann seems custom built to tear down our heavy hitters and Knights. Their grudge ability lets them delete GUO's in a turn and their MW ability 'dwarfs' ours.

    It looks like the only viable way to have any meta presence is with mixed god armies. I think GW intended for us to stop looking looking at daemons as a single god-faction army. The warp storm abilities we get for going mono aren't stellar and we gain a bevy of tools in our toolboxes via stratagems and a wider array of datasheets if we mix. Be'lakors AoR sucks but mixed detachments don't lose much.

    My Scabreithrax may be Legends, but he'll see more play than my GUO's or Rotigus. He's much tankier despite T8 and the points increase to GD's makes the price difference less noticeable. In Legends environments, look at the FW daemons for a boost to your army. My FW LoC though, he's still a shelf piece.

    If no Legends and mono, Nurgle and Tzeentch can stay in the warp.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/13 21:28:10


    Post by: popisdead


    Played with mono slaanesh on the weekend vs slaanesh marines.

    opponent ignoring any modifiers was a bit annoying since it was so shooting heavy.

    I missed the boat on soulgrinders. both of mine didn't do much other than die.

    How are people using their soulgrinders?

    summoning 3" away in your own deployment was nice.

    the ASF Windstorm makes for a pretty good save in at least a couple turns.

    daemonettes with Hysterical Frenzy, the -1 AP strat and Sylle'Eske made the point and click delete.

    The key will be not caring about terrain but tearing across the board.

    I also don't see why people love Fiends. Enraptress was pretty good though. Maybe I need to move her up and Deep Strike the fiends so they operate more in tandem.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/13 23:27:34


    Post by: BomBomHotdog


     WisdomLS wrote:


    The lack on monogod bnonuses and ability to take WL traits really stands out as very strange in this edition. Where is a nurgle rule for being extra resilient or a Khorne rule for hitting harder on the charge - just seems to be missing.


    Not just the loss of monogod bonuses (the loci) but the god specific unit abilities were either moved into the stat line or put into the warpstom table. Nurgle's increased resiliance is given with higher toughness and more wounds. Khorne gets higher Strength and an extra attack. Slaanesh has base 10"+ movement with lots of attacks with lower strength. Tzeentch has a higher defense against shooting at the cost of worst save against melee.

    Want more attacks as Khorne? Spend Warpstorm points. Want you're Nurgle units to shrug off wounds again? Too bad, that's gone now but you can get an addition -1 AP against Vehicles or +1 to hit in combat. Have Slaanesh go 1st in combat? Warpstorm points. Better casting as Tzeentch? Warpstorm points. Want access to all of these? That's 4 different detachments unless you take Bel' akor in a Supreme Commander detachment.

    For Slaanesh the Enraptress is great at 80pts. Not only does s/he give Warp Locus but also carries a 24" Lascannon, can bring back models within 6", cause Perils on any double within 24", and gives re-roll wounds of 1 within 6". Pink Horrors feel over priced for a mid to close range shooting unit that dies the moment it gets into combat, which it will, and brings what amounts to a boltgun. They also lost the ability to cast Smite. On the upside you don't need to assign wounds to the Pinks first so feel free to kill the Blue and Brimstones first again.

    There are parts of the codex I like, but it just feels so fragmented and unfinished. Khorne feels like the most balanced of the 4 imo.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/14 00:44:49


    Post by: Arbiter_Shade


    @Whembly Lol you are right, I didn't pay enough attention to notice that it was a vanguard detachment. My bad.

    As for engage v reality rebels, I think that hiding some nurglings around your deployment mixed with your monsters moving into your opponents quarters will net you more with engage than with reality rebels. Honestly I think both are decent enough choices compared to each other but I don't really think that either is that great... They might just be the best of the worst choices.

    Also, holy gak I just reread the Exalted GUO Revoltingly Resilient and noticed that it was -1D in melee only. GUO is so much worse than I initially thought and I had very low opinions to begin with.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/14 04:41:29


    Post by: tneva82


    How to reality rebels scored me vs engage:

    Turn 1. 1 vs 0.
    Turn 2. 3 vs 2
    Turn 3. 3 vs 2.
    Turn 4. 2 vs 0
    Turn 5. 0 vs 0.

    Might have been able to eek engage point on turn 4 but requires not getting to melee with something.

    9 vs 4


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/14 12:02:34


    Post by: WisdomLS


    BomBomHotdog wrote:
     WisdomLS wrote:


    The lack on monogod bnonuses and ability to take WL traits really stands out as very strange in this edition. Where is a nurgle rule for being extra resilient or a Khorne rule for hitting harder on the charge - just seems to be missing.


    Not just the loss of monogod bonuses (the loci) but the god specific unit abilities were either moved into the stat line or put into the warpstom table. Nurgle's increased resiliance is given with higher toughness and more wounds. Khorne gets higher Strength and an extra attack. Slaanesh has base 10"+ movement with lots of attacks with lower strength. Tzeentch has a higher defense against shooting at the cost of worst save against melee.

    Want more attacks as Khorne? Spend Warpstorm points. Want you're Nurgle units to shrug off wounds again? Too bad, that's gone now but you can get an addition -1 AP against Vehicles or +1 to hit in combat. Have Slaanesh go 1st in combat? Warpstorm points. Better casting as Tzeentch? Warpstorm points. Want access to all of these? That's 4 different detachments unless you take Bel' akor in a Supreme Commander detachment.

    For Slaanesh the Enraptress is great at 80pts. Not only does s/he give Warp Locus but also carries a 24" Lascannon, can bring back models within 6", cause Perils on any double within 24", and gives re-roll wounds of 1 within 6". Pink Horrors feel over priced for a mid to close range shooting unit that dies the moment it gets into combat, which it will, and brings what amounts to a boltgun. They also lost the ability to cast Smite. On the upside you don't need to assign wounds to the Pinks first so feel free to kill the Blue and Brimstones first again.

    There are parts of the codex I like, but it just feels so fragmented and unfinished. Khorne feels like the most balanced of the 4 imo.


    You are correct that many of the god abilities have just been moved onto the dataslate, the problem is that other factions got buffs like these and still kept their abilities ;-(


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/16 11:11:12


    Post by: Krull


    Warpstorm points should also be rolled for every turn instead of every battleround


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/16 12:29:05


    Post by: JakeSiren


    So, I'm preparing for some (casual) games tomorrow and looking at taking Khorne and have just realized how awesome the Skull Altar is.

    50 points gets you a t8 9w 4+/4+ model that has an 18" -2 psy cast aura, AND has the ritual slaughter rule. Smart placement of the fortification from warp manifestation on T2 means that you stand a good chance of getting multiple warp storm points. I know that people are so / so on the wrap storm table, but the stand outs are Fury of Khorne (+1 attack), or Dark Invigoration (models back!).

    My plan is to hold 3 x Bloodletter squads and the Skull Altar (with Skulltaker in it) in the warp to bust down T2 and support the rest of my army that has been moving up ready to kill.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/16 22:30:51


    Post by: xeen


    Got in another few games and pretty much everything has went the way I thought........

    Flamers are super broken. They would still be a must take at 35 points

    A lot of the units feel over-costed. Screamers very much so, but also Bloodcrushers, Horrors (actually most of the troops), the chariots, and a few others.

    Unless you are playing a fluffy army, to me there is no reason not to mix and match between gods, and if you are going competitive, I think it is a must. The only thing you lose is the god specific warpstrom abilities and quite frankly, none of them are so good that it is worth losing out on taking the best units from each of the gods (bloodthrister, flamers, nurgle soulgrinder, deepstrike blood letters, probably seekers).

    Soulgrinders are great now. I did not think their shooting would be that impressive, but the last two games it was very effective, especially against units without armor or contempt. I still don't think you just sit back and shoot with them, but shoot while you charge up the field.



    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/17 05:03:38


    Post by: p5freak


    Some of the god specific warpstorm abilities are quite good. You dont get those when you mix, only in pure detachments. Tzeentch +1 to cast, khorne +1 attack, khorne D3 MW to ALL enemy units in 24" on a roll of 6. When your dice goes hot it can do a lot damage for only 2 WSP.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/17 06:24:49


    Post by: tneva82


    +1a runs into issue of being overkill. At least the game i had lack of killing power was not an issue Anything died even without it. -1 to hit was lot more of a thing.

    The mw thing was super meh. 2 times rolling for entire army and got aggressor(who was going to die to bloodthirster anyway) and wound to 2 units which didn't do anything in the end.

    +1 to cast is lot more interesting and always strike first can be useful at some situations.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/17 07:31:29


    Post by: p5freak


    tneva82 wrote:
    +1a runs into issue of being overkill. At least the game i had lack of killing power was not an issue Anything died even without it. -1 to hit was lot more of a thing.


    Depends on the situation. A unit of bloodletters benefit from +1A, when only wounding on 4s or even 5s.

    tneva82 wrote:

    The mw thing was super meh. 2 times rolling for entire army and got aggressor(who was going to die to bloodthirster anyway) and wound to 2 units which didn't do anything in the end.


    If those 2 WSP are left over, give it a try, better than losing them at the end of the turn.

    tneva82 wrote:

    +1 to cast is lot more interesting and always strike first can be useful at some situations.


    +1 to cast even benefits belakor, when in a tzeentch detachment, and strike first is always good.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/17 08:39:32


    Post by: tneva82


    With be'lakor you have all effects so yea.

    And i did use the mw thing twice for quite literally zero impact. You use it if nothing else but still is weak. Not losing sleep over losing it. 6 flamers would do more damage


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/17 09:43:32


    Post by: JakeSiren


    So after my game today, here are my thoughts:

    Burning Terror is quite useful. It's easy to catch a lot of enemy units with its range (24" is a massive range). It was certainly useful when descending shadow wasn't practical.
    I was able to get Fury of Khorne off once. It was a nice buff, and can certainly help depending on the unit that you are attacking into.
    Otherworldly Tread helped me get into combat a few times. Being able to ignore the penalties for things like craters is massive.

    For the units, I found Bloodcrushers to be reasonably durable. I was happy with my 6-man unit.
    Bloodletters were over-costed. Even with the warp-manifestation shenanigans they were unreliable to get into combat and didn't stand up to too much punishment back. Getting into combat can be helped with Banner of Blood, but it's only one unit. Frenetic Bloodlust also helps a little with closing the gap.
    My Flesh Hounds never made it into combat, so little to say about that.
    Skull Cannon's were good IMO. They have reasonable shooting and are reasonable in melee. Their combination of tough 7 and 4+ save makes them fairly resilient.
    I ran a Bloodthirster with Indomitable Onslaught, Aspect of Death, Blood-drinker Talisman, and a Great Axe. I don't think I played it well. That said, the fact that it had Indomitable Onslaught made it difficult for my opponent to deal with. I would consider taking the Crimson Crown and Rage Incarnate next time.
    I was super happy with how the Skull Altar performed. First off, the -2 to psychic tests saved me a number of times. My opponent got unlucky and rolled under the WC cost for smite multiple times because of the Altar! I was able to use Ritual Slaughter once which netted me +2 WSP. If I had of more cleverly placed units I would have received more. One of the problems however was that because I had 2nd turn, the points generated by the Altar can only be used on either Dark Invigoration or Fury of Khorne. The Crimson Crown can help retain these points for the next turn.

    Overall, I felt Khorne was OK, but not great.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/17 18:56:04


    Post by: xeen


     p5freak wrote:
    tneva82 wrote:
    +1a runs into issue of being overkill. At least the game i had lack of killing power was not an issue Anything died even without it. -1 to hit was lot more of a thing.


    Depends on the situation. A unit of bloodletters benefit from +1A, when only wounding on 4s or even 5s.

    tneva82 wrote:

    The mw thing was super meh. 2 times rolling for entire army and got aggressor(who was going to die to bloodthirster anyway) and wound to 2 units which didn't do anything in the end.


    If those 2 WSP are left over, give it a try, better than losing them at the end of the turn.

    tneva82 wrote:

    +1 to cast is lot more interesting and always strike first can be useful at some situations.


    +1 to cast even benefits belakor, when in a tzeentch detachment, and strike first is always good.


    I am not saying those abilities are not good. Just not worth losing the flexibility of use of each gods best units


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/18 14:44:49


    Post by: tneva82


    Ouch what a lopsided win i got. 82-24(and i gave 3vp away by tabling him t4). Not sure how bad deathwatch atm and his luck was horrible with first 2 turns loads of misses thanks to warpstorm. T8 and 4+ also kept me strong.

    Planet bowlin ball and all he got was 7 bloodletter# ed 5 wounds to skarbrand and soul grinder.

    Then i got charge army wide and basically deleted all.

    Khorne mw warp storm did nothing. -1 to hit big and r3 and 4 healed own guy's for lolz so lost 7 bloodletteis, 1 crusher and most heavy hitterrp at best bracket.

    Got to buv more stuff so it's not just monster smash. '

    God specific warpstorm done mw thing 3 times and attack once and literally had 0 impact. Pretty sure adding say flamers would have bigge impact.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/18 20:25:14


    Post by: xeen


    tneva82 wrote:
    Ouch what a lopsided win i got. 82-24(and i gave 3vp away by tabling him t4). Not sure how bad deathwatch atm and his luck was horrible with first 2 turns loads of misses thanks to warpstorm. T8 and 4+ also kept me strong.

    Planet bowlin ball and all he got was 7 bloodletter# ed 5 wounds to skarbrand and soul grinder.

    Then i got charge army wide and basically deleted all.

    Khorne mw warp storm did nothing. -1 to hit big and r3 and 4 healed own guy's for lolz so lost 7 bloodletteis, 1 crusher and most heavy hitterrp at best bracket.

    Got to buv more stuff so it's not just monster smash. '

    God specific warpstorm done mw thing 3 times and attack once and literally had 0 impact. Pretty sure adding say flamers would have bigge impact.



    Yea man. Khorne with flamers and nurgle soul grinder I think is probably the best build. Maybe a tzeentch herald to cast +1 to wound on flamers and put out some mortals.

    How are you liking blood crushers? I just ordered some to add to my tzeentch army


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/18 21:10:52


    Post by: tneva82


    They haven't been amazing but then again with 3 they can't be expected to do wonders And with bloodthirsters smashing everything the blood crushers kinda get outshined ;-)

    vs blood angels they charged in and killed intercessors netting me 3 vp from grind them down and tagged inceptors reducing shooting a bit. Then got killed but hey 5 aggressors coming in not much can expect to survive...Can't really ask for more than that.

    This game they tagged bikes denying shooting and after 1 round of free slaps, them retreat and charge and then again I STILL had 2 out of 3 survive and had killed 3 outriders myself. So they were certainly tying up those bikes. T5 and 4/4 saves makes them surprisingly durable and being just 135 pts not super tempting target for the enemy to target heavier weapons. Not with trio of bloodthirsters and soul grinder bearing down on their throats!

    Add to that fast for T1 objective grabbing and they have done solid work. Just kind of getting overshadowed by blood thirsters But then again this kind of work in their favour as opponent has wee bit bigger things to aim at than 3 blood crushers...

    In pure khorne I don't regret taking them. Were I to mix gods though think flamers would be better...Then again not much where flamers AREN'T better option...

    Fiends is interesting comparison. 10 pts cheaper, extra attack but less AP(that -3 is handy vs marines). T4 vs T5 and that T5 has actually played quite an impact. -1 hit in melee does help though but 5+ save vs shooting. Faster than blood crushers. Fiends probably better overall for points but the blood crushers have role. Lot depends on does the T5 play a role or not. If you face S6-S7 mostly the T5 isn't that interesting but S4 feels that a lot.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/20 07:43:18


    Post by: Niiai


    Charging from Locus points. Is there a build that ca do that?

    From my understanding all demons have 2 sources of locus points + belakor?

    Khorne: Skallebrand and altar (who can deepstrike, but not used in the same turn.)
    Nurgle: Named unclean one and trees (who can forward deploy).
    Slanesh: Named demon and unknown to me.
    Tzeench: Named demon and spell.
    All have belakor.

    Could running up Skallebrand and Belakor and just start throwing khorn units at the enemy work? Or would they just be focused own fast and die? Some of them like hound or skullcrushers might be fast enough to walk on their own?

    How about the other demons?



    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/20 08:18:06


    Post by: p5freak


    Infernal enrapturess is the second source for warp locus for slaanesh. Tzeentch is kairos and WLT. There are 9 warp locus units. Pick some, deploy them on the table, move forward, and charge after deepstriking. Belakor reduces LD by 2, he has two different auras, and you can reduce LD by another 1 with warpstorm points. This means that you can deepstrike 5" away from an enemy unit with LD8. Note that its exactly 5", not more than 5", and its capped at 3-9. This means you only need to roll a 4 for the charge roll. This however only works in no mans land.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/20 09:48:22


    Post by: tneva82


    "more than number of inches away from each enemy unit, equal to current leadership".

    MORE than number...

    No it's not exact. Unless you cheat.


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
     Niiai wrote:
    Could running up Skallebrand and Belakor and just start throwing khorn units at the enemy work? Or would they just be focused own fast and die? Some of them like hound or skullcrushers might be fast enough to walk on their own?



    So far I have got Skarbrand to launch distance as is.

    Of course with -1 to enemy leadership near your demons and ability to lower more by warpstorm with leadership 8(like marines) I find myself doing 6"-7" charges anyway so the warp locus has turned out to be less essential than I expected. Which is why I'm starting to consider putting skarbrand in reserves instead of a bloodthirster. Sure I can't use warp locus but that base + 8" movement + no fly=getting close to enemy can be tricky.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/20 12:37:23


    Post by: p5freak


    tneva82 wrote:
    "more than number of inches away from each enemy unit, equal to current leadership".

    MORE than number...

    No it's not exact. Unless you cheat.


    It says more and equal. It cant be both. What is it ?


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/20 13:04:40


    Post by: Mozzamanx


    It must be more than X, where X is equal to...


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/20 13:12:37


    Post by: p5freak


    Ok, now it makes sense to me.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/20 17:15:06


    Post by: tneva82


     p5freak wrote:
    tneva82 wrote:
    "more than number of inches away from each enemy unit, equal to current leadership".

    MORE than number...

    No it's not exact. Unless you cheat.


    It says more and equal. It cant be both. What is it ?


    Yes it can. More than x where x is equal to leadership of enemy.

    Elementary school math.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/21 19:31:04


    Post by: EightFoldPath


    Forge world FAQ is out.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/22 14:09:04


    Post by: Zompa


    I've been playing with ZE DEMONZ quite a bit lately and I'll start the discussion by statng that shoving Belakor in a supreme command detachment is almost always a dumb move.

    With no "extra warlord trait" it means losing out on a big defensive layer on your chiken/Blood Provider (Or the ignore wounds cap trait on the latter) which is a big deal and gaining ALL ZE WARP TIEDS is kind of a moot gain since you'll rarely be able to use more than 2 in a turn (and this already implies saving up warp points with the tzeentch's power).


    The best army comp is probably to have one pure detachment for the tides you'll actually need (khorne for +1A/no disengage or tzeentch for the +1 casts if you have at least 3 psykers) and then a mixed one with complementary solid units (Khorne/Nurgle soulgrinders, Fiends, Flamers).

    Blue horrors on the field keeping home objectives "screened" and reserves bloodletters charging in with the stratagem are the best troop option. Plaguebearers could be half decent if they could get models back with the Resurgence Tide, as it is 2 wounds and T5 simply won't cut it as a "wall" in the current world.


    The list I've been running lately is a double patrol with:

    Belakor
    Skarbrand
    Lord of Change

    1 unit of blues

    1 unit of bloodletters

    And then Fiends/Flamers/Soulgrinders while testing out different combinations.

    What's the consensus on Daemon Princes? I like a Tzeentch one with the Impossible robe if i'm giving the Big Chicken the conflagration staff, especially since I can give it the "utility" powers or interrogate while the chicken keeps blasting away.

    tneva82 wrote:
    "more than number of inches away from each enemy unit, equal to current leadership".

    So far I have got Skarbrand to launch distance as is.

    Of course with -1 to enemy leadership near your demons and ability to lower more by warpstorm with leadership 8(like marines) I find myself doing 6"-7" charges anyway so the warp locus has turned out to be less essential than I expected. Which is why I'm starting to consider putting skarbrand in reserves instead of a bloodthirster. Sure I can't use warp locus but that base + 8" movement + no fly=getting close to enemy can be tricky.


    There's little to no reason to start with Skarbrand on the table unless you're playing against someone that will need to move towards you and you just want to lie in wait for a turn/have a centerfield terrain that can cover him well.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/22 17:40:05


    Post by: tneva82


    Well if skarbrand doesn't start you don't even plan to use his warp locus. T3 generally won't matter much for it. You need to start smashing t2


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Had rough(though fun) game vs orks with my pure khorne. Think this might be surprisingly tough match up and 6 objective scenario didn't help(not promising since next league round is this).

    The orks throwing loads of s5 melee attacks and t5/6 came heavily to play. I was deleting units fine but was losing units and 12 to 18 i can't just trade...

    Going 2nd and moving bit too far paid dearly and transports issue as was going to be pretty hard stopping nobz getting charge. Thanks for 8w cap.

    Got nurture by terror capped easily(each unit being near automatic vp and using warpstorm for extra modifiers and doing random firepower spread around triggering ld checks at -2 helps), 10/13 assasinate and 9-10 from reality vs opponents 15 good bits and 11 from greentide(i traded daemon prince to make 0 secondary for him) but getting only 1 primary after turn 3 was fatal. Too much obsec swarming objectives clearing bloodletters.


    Bloodcrushers found their match from squighound orks. So far i have wounded enemy on 3+ and opponent wounded on 5+. Now reverse...


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/23 07:09:20


    Post by: Zompa


    tneva82 wrote:
    Well if skarbrand doesn't start you don't even plan to use his warp locus. T3 generally won't matter much for it. You need to start smashing t2



    If you go pure khorne it surely can be an issue but Belakor is pretty much an autotake for the Loci, Rerolls for EVERYONE (Aside from Soul Grindes because for some reason feth those guys) and his Wreathed in Shades power.

    Even if going mono-god you should always have 1 fast/throw-away unit (Dogs and Fiends work best for this) that can just advance in your opponent's face. After that you spend the 3 WP for the additional -1 Ld and unless you're playing against Custodes or Necrons you'll be looking at 7" charges anyway.
    Even in the worst case scenario just plopping him 8/9" away and sending in a unit of bloodletters with the 3d6 charge, making them fight in the +1A bubble is not terrible if it meant keeping him safe from shooting for a turn.

    Never underestimate the difference in psychological pressure put on your opponent between "This murder machine is right THERE on the table and can only erase things in this rather small area" vs "This murder machine is out there somewhere and I need to be careful with my movements or it's gonna get me"





    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/25 20:13:49


    Post by: Rihgu


    Are daemon lists still "maximum big guys all the time"?
    I understand that flamers are pretty good and it looks like a couple squads of bloodletters is appreciated in most lists, but is it really like:

    3 Bloodthirster
    3x10 Bloodletters
    Skull Altar
    Be'lakor
    3x6 flamers

    Do we have wiggle room to branch out into other things? I mostly have/like the little daemons and am hesitant to go out and get multiple enormo-daemons.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/25 21:02:58


    Post by: artific3r


    Last edition's meta was little daemons so this edition's meta is big daemons. You will also be expected to buy Be'lakor if you haven't already.

    That's the business model.



    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/25 21:15:39


    Post by: Hecate


    Question on a rule:

    Slaanesh Warlord trait "Savage Hedonist". It says that at the start of each battle round, add 1 to WL's strength (to a maximum of +3).

    Does this mean the strength increases 3 times? Like, on turn 3 I have S +3? Thanks!


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/25 21:19:14


    Post by: p5freak


     Rihgu wrote:
    Are daemon lists still "maximum big guys all the time"?
    I understand that flamers are pretty good and it looks like a couple squads of bloodletters is appreciated in most lists, but is it really like:

    3 Bloodthirster
    3x10 Bloodletters
    Skull Altar
    Be'lakor
    3x6 flamers

    Do we have wiggle room to branch out into other things? I mostly have/like the little daemons and am hesitant to go out and get multiple enormo-daemons.


    Yes, because little daemons suck, except for flamers. All troop choices are overpriced by 10-20 points.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/25 22:25:54


    Post by: Rihgu


    Ah shucks. Well, skull grinders are cool, and I have always loved Be'lakor, so it's not all bad.

    I only have 10 bloodletters, though. RIP to the 20 pink horrors and 30 plaguebearers, I guess.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/25 22:48:35


    Post by: artific3r


    Personally I am stoked that bloodthirsters are finally good. Lukewarm on the GW Be'lakor sculpt but luckily EMANG's got me covered with his excellent proxies.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/25 23:43:43


    Post by: JakeSiren


    Hecate wrote:
    Question on a rule:

    Slaanesh Warlord trait "Savage Hedonist". It says that at the start of each battle round, add 1 to WL's strength (to a maximum of +3).

    Does this mean the strength increases 3 times? Like, on turn 3 I have S +3? Thanks!
    That's correct. I think the Murderdance or Fatal Caress are more useful though. Keepers are already at S8 for their attacks, so an additional +3 strength is going to be less beneficial then an additional d3 attacks or ignoring invulnerables.

    I'm a bit sad that you can't take Savage Hedonist on a Tormentbringer on Hellflayer - it could bring their Bladed Axle up to a juicy S9.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/26 05:05:14


    Post by: Hecate


    Ahh, thanks.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/26 22:23:02


    Post by: Hecate


    Oh, hang on... I haven't seen anything about summoning in the new codex! There's stuff about being held in reserves, but no summoning! I play Power rather than Points, and the previous codex let me summon stuff without having to pay extra Power for them. Is this not a thing anymore?


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/27 02:48:21


    Post by: JakeSiren


    Yeah nah, no more summoning in the book. It has basically been replaced with the Warp Manifestation rule to represent Daemons materialising in real-space.

    Chaos Daemons could be super busted in Crusade. Pink Horrors with free splitting were broken - especially if you ended up with a 30 horror Battle-Tested squad (auto-pass combat attrition near objective marker). There was no way that you were moving 150 obsec bodies that didn't care about morale for 12pl.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/27 18:39:25


    Post by: VladimirHerzog


    yeah, i'm glad the no limit on sumonning doesnt exist anymore


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/28 00:39:45


    Post by: Hecate


    Mmm, it did seem broken to me, too. But my main opponent was okay with it. We never played Crusade, but they played Tzeentch (and Blood Angels), and I was Slaanesh (and Necrons), so it seemed okay for us.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/28 12:03:09


    Post by: WisdomLS


    Played my first proper game with the new book against Deathwatch.

    I took a Khorne/tzeentch force with Belakor, Tanky thirster, fateskimmer, skulltaker, flamers, skullcannon, Grinder and some bloodletters and a squad of Blue horrors.

    I went first and we called the game after my turn turn 2 as I have killed 2/3s of his army and had the rest pinned in facing death.

    Some thoughts:

    Even against infiltrators and auspex scan our new deepstriking options are very strong and make it tricky for the opponent to plan around.

    The thirster is very tanky and super deadly - just as it should be :-D I can't see me playing without him.

    The Fateskimmer was awesome, I took both the tzeentch MW powers and seeing my oponent bunch up decided to shoot him forward turn 1 and unload. Using the warpstorm for +1 to cast and the strat for an extra power so I could fire off a smite he managed 24 MW in the psychic phase!!! Most of that with Infernal gateway to his packed in units, followed by a Bolt of change to finish off his WL and then a super smite.
    He was then tanky enough to weather my opponents return fire forcing him to come out and finish me in assault leaving him open to my counter charge that I had setup.

    Flamers are just bonkers for their points, fast, tough and put out a massive amount of decent shots - these need a points hike!

    Everything else did what it should with nothing standing out in any way.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/28 13:05:47


    Post by: VladimirHerzog


    Hecate wrote:
    Mmm, it did seem broken to me, too. But my main opponent was okay with it. We never played Crusade, but they played Tzeentch (and Blood Angels), and I was Slaanesh (and Necrons), so it seemed okay for us.


    90 pinks with free full splits IS broken, no wonder they were fine with it :p


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/28 22:29:46


    Post by: Hecate


    Ha, yeah. I think we played 4 games with the old codex (we're new, and usually play Blood Angels and Necrons), and I don't think we ever managed to get rid of even 20 Pink Horrors due to free splitting. Although in one epic game, a pair of Cryptothralls kept the Horrors in combat for 3.5 turns, winning me the game.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/29 23:41:28


    Post by: Hecate


    Okay, I'm confused. What does the Warp Locus ability actually do? The pages dealing with the Warp Storm stuff doesn't explain it (unless I'm missing something?).

    Halp!


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/30 01:48:29


    Post by: BomBomHotdog


    Hecate wrote:
    Okay, I'm confused. What does the Warp Locus ability actually do? The pages dealing with the Warp Storm stuff doesn't explain it (unless I'm missing something?).

    Halp!


    If you have a unit of Deamons arrive from the warp you can use the Warp Locus ability if there's a unit on the table with it. If you do use this method then the unit must be wholly with 6" of model with Warp Locus and can be 6" or more away from enemy units. You use this instead of arriving 9" away, enemy units LD away (3" minimal 9" max) when outside of either players deployments, or 3" away minimal in your own deployment zone.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/30 06:06:58


    Post by: Hecate


    Is that all the Locus is for? I see...

    Might be useful sometimes. Thanks.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/09/30 09:37:56


    Post by: tneva82


    Getting within 6" is pretty good.

    Biggest issue I have is my main source of warp locus is skarbrand. 8" move, big base, no fly. Either he has to be in open field and still struggles to manouver or it's not so easy to get 6" charges after all and with daemonic terror 6-7" via those isn't impossible. Does reduce need for warpstorm points though.

    With Be'lakor it becomes nuts. Teleport him with 2CP anywhere 9" from enemy, bring in daemons 6" from enemy.

    Can't compare with other named characters as WL source as skarbrand is only one I have.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/02 09:27:03


    Post by: xerxeskingofking


    greetings, all!

    I'm a tsons player, looking for something to expand my range apart form yet more bloody scarabs and rubrics, and i decided to branch over into Deamons for verity. Ihave a few questions:

    1) It seems that Tzneetch Deamons are rather hard to buy at this moment. Is the range getting a reboxing or something? none of my usual online retailers seem to have any in stock at the moment. has this been going on for some time? have i picked exactly the wrong month to take up tzneetch deamons?

    2) speaking of the blue brigade, how good are they, generally? I'm intrested in getting some screamers and Flamers to add a little mobility to my pondering forces. Are they any good?

    3) is the Lord of Change worth it? I don't have any real experience with "centrepiece" units like them, no one i play with runs them....which heavily implies they are not worth the points. is that the case? I dont expect to be able to work him into a 25PL bolt on detachment for my tsons, but should i just stay away form him and use the heralds for all HQ needs, full stop?



    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/02 15:55:51


    Post by: tneva82


    Flamers are bonkers good so no surprise they are out of stock as tournament try hards max out on those. Wouldn't surprise me if somebody would buy 6 of aos tzeentch vanquard just to get 18 flamers

    So obviously flamers good.

    Loc isn't bad as such but with 25pl limit doesn't leave much room for flamers...especially as you need troop as well...you are looking max flamer squad, 10 blues and loc. You could swap loc for herald and another flamer unit with points to spare. Or herald and 3x6 flamer and exalted paying 1 more cp.



    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/02 20:53:12


    Post by: p5freak


    Its very easy to increase the PL to 140 or even more in a 2k army. For tsons use 6 termis instead of 5, and PL goes from 10 to 20. Same with rubrics, use 6 instead of 5, and PL doubles from 6 to 12. With PL140 you can now include a daemon detachment with PL35.
    Same is true for CSM. Going from 5 to 6 models will double the PL. By just adding one model you have doubled the power of the unit, while adding meltaguns, power fists, plasmaguns does nothing to increase the power level of a unit. PL is insanely stupid.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/02 21:15:21


    Post by: VladimirHerzog


    played with the dex again this weekend, definitely a gak codex IMO, super unfun to play, warp storm is such a terrible mechanic


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/02 22:10:47


    Post by: TonyH122


    I finally got a chance to play Khorne Daemons (2000pts), which went against my mate's Goff Pressure list. Those Orks really put on the pain, and have previously smacked around my Sisters and Chaos Knights. So I went into the game thinking that I'd get mushed, but have a wonderful time. Here was my list:

    Belakor
    Skarbrand
    Bloodthirster w/ Great Axe - Indomitable Onslaught, Brazen Hide, Blood-Dinker Talisman
    3x 10 Bloodletters
    4 Bloodcrushers
    2x 6 Flesh Hounds
    Skull Cannon

    My secondaries were Reality Rebels, Nourished by Terror, and Assassination. The Skull Cannon stayed on my home objective, the Flesh Hounds and Bloodcrushers started on the board, as did Belakor, and everything else was in reserve.

    I pushed up with the Flesh Hounds and Bloodcrushers, each of whom died pretty quickly to the Orks. In fact, they just served as a means for the Orks to move up the board with charges. Likely just a mistake in how I played them. However, everything else proved the real deal. The Bloodletters reliably killed anything I threw them at, and actually didn't die too quickly. But the real winners were the three monsters. In the end I didn't need ObSec, because they just sat on objectives and killed everything that came close. I was worried for taking Skarbrand vs Orks, as I didn't want to give them even more attacks. But nothing survived him! I didn't even need Indomitable Onslaught or Blood-Drinker Talisman on my Bloodthirster, as he proved so hard to wound.

    Regarding Warp Storm, I used the -1 to hit for the first round. The ignore movement penalties then actually worked a treat on the board I was on. I was surprised by that. After that I just used +1A, which never came into play.

    Regarding secondaries, being against Orks Nourished by Terror was actually the real winner. But I get that's not always going to happen. In the end I maxed secondaries, and got about +8 over my opponent on secondaries for a comfortable win.

    I actually really enjoyed the codex, and I was amazed by how well I did against a tough list! Ignore the nay-sayers guys; Khorne delights in the slaughter we bring!


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/02 23:44:39


    Post by: artific3r


    Am I correct in assuming that Frenetic Bloodlust doesn't do anything if the bloodletter unit is out of Engagement Range and doesn't have LOS to an enemy unit?


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/02 23:53:28


    Post by: Hecate


    Watched a friend play Tzeentch v Votann for the first time with the new codex yesterday. The Warp Storm stuff was completely useless, but that might've been bad rolling. The Horrors were the biggest change I noticed. The entire squad actually died! That 4+ split seems way more balanced than free splitting in PL games.

    They got tabled in turn 4 and lost 35-30 VP, but it was actually pretty close. The Votann player finished with their leader bean and a single bike.

    It was only a 30 PL game, but still.

    The Flamers did really well, as expected.

    My Tzeentch friend did remark that the new codex is easier to use than the old one, too. Both in layout (dataslates grouped by god rather than troops/elites etc.) and in clarity.

    I still haven't used my Slaanesh yet, but hopefully in a couple weeks.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/03 04:39:30


    Post by: p5freak


    artific3r wrote:
    Am I correct in assuming that Frenetic Bloodlust doesn't do anything if the bloodletter unit is out of Engagement Range and doesn't have LOS to an enemy unit?


    It says if that unit is not within engagement range of any enemy units, make a normal move of up to 6". It must end this move closer to the closest visible enemy unit. If there is no visible enemy unit you can move anywhere. The first sentence instructs you to make a normal move, thats mandatory.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/03 05:44:56


    Post by: Arbiter_Shade


     TonyH122 wrote:

    I actually really enjoyed the codex, and I was amazed by how well I did against a tough list! Ignore the nay-sayers guys; Khorne delights in the slaughter we bring!


    Please actually read what us "nay-sayers" are actually saying if you are going to tell people to ignore us.

    Khorne is the big winner in this codex. Khorne is honestly just fine and I think that it is awesome for Khorne fans. Tzeentch is okay, flamers are a massive crutch but outside of that they are still decent. Slaanesh is not great, they can do a little bit to stay competitive but they are not about to rock the world. Nurgle are awful, truly abysmal.

    If you want to rock undivided you can do well, if you run Khorne you can do well. The rest of the codex is poorly designed, uninspiring and just not fun to play. I have won with my Nurgle army but it was more frustrating than fun and I have only played them against other suffering armies. When I play Slaanesh I at least feel like I am playing the game even if it is with an inferior army. I unfortunately do not have the greater daemons to play Khorne or Tzeentch yet, so my experience is more limited with them but I can clearly see how you can run them.

    Belakor is glue that just holds the entire codex together. The codex should be called "Belakor: Also his friends."


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/03 13:17:31


    Post by: artific3r


     p5freak wrote:
    artific3r wrote:
    Am I correct in assuming that Frenetic Bloodlust doesn't do anything if the bloodletter unit is out of Engagement Range and doesn't have LOS to an enemy unit?


    It says if that unit is not within engagement range of any enemy units, make a normal move of up to 6". It must end this move closer to the closest visible enemy unit. If there is no visible enemy unit you can move anywhere. The first sentence instructs you to make a normal move, thats mandatory.


    So the second line is not mandatory? It sounds pretty mandatory:

    "It MUST end this move closer to the closest visible enemy unit."

    Is there a precedent or FAQ that addresses a similar rule with this specific wording? It seems very ambiguous. If you had a unit of bloodletters hidden out of LOS, you could use literally use Frenetic Bloodlust to run away from the enemy. That doesn't seem very thematic. Either way, it doesn't seem 100% crystal clear to me that the second line is not mandatory.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/03 13:41:27


    Post by: p5freak


    The second sentence is mandatory as well. But when there is no visible enemy unit you dont have to move closer to it. You must move, but you can move anywhere you like. I dont know any FAQ covering this. Feel free to create a new thread in YMDC.



    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/03 13:45:25


    Post by: artific3r


    If you can move anywhere, we'd also have the weird case of being out of LOS initially, then moving AWAY from the enemy unit but INTO LOS. I'd be interested to see how TO's have been ruling it, especially since daemons now have a strong presence at top tables.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/03 13:58:08


    Post by: p5freak


    Yes, this is interesting. I will make a new thread in YMDC about this.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/03 17:14:05


    Post by: tneva82


    What a difference one roll can make. Week ago got solid thumping by orks. Learned lessons and crucially got to go first and result was total flip.

    Vs orks shooting at multiple units and splittrng attacks sooo good. Especially when you put full ld debuffs from warpstorm table. I feel ork players pain as morale hurts them most.

    Capped nurture by terror on my 2nd turn...


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/03 22:49:32


    Post by: xeen


    So played a few games with the dex this weekend with my added Khorne units to my tzeentch ones. Here are my thoughts (played tempest so I don't know about secondaries)

    My list (based mostly on what I own)

    Bloodthirster with exalted and the blood talisman
    LoC with -1 hit, -1 wound (WL) and the improved shooting attack rod relic
    herald of tzeentch on disc
    herald of khorne on juggernaut

    10 blue horrors
    10 pink horrors

    6 Blood crushers
    6 flamers

    4 screamers

    Chariot of Tzeentch
    Soulgrinder of nurgle.

    First game against ultra marines with Bobby-G. I won this game by a pretty wide margin.
    Second game against CSM creations of bile. My opponent had an emergency and had to leave, but he was beating the crap out of me and would have won the game. Creations of bile are basically going to beat daemons every time with their fight on death, as all the daemon units die pretty quick in CC.

    Thoughts on warp storm

    The warp storm table is probably the worst army wide rule in the game. Other than the -1 to hit and heal (which is so hard to get) the rest are usually worthless, with the -1 to hit being worthless after turn one (everything is basically within 12). Personally since we don't get a <legion> trait equivalent they should just allow access to all of the effects as long as you have one unit from that god on the table. The god specific ones are not as terrible, but (as I argued before) not worth losing out on mixing the best units from each god.

    Thoughts on units

    Bloodthirster with exalted and the blood talisman - quite frankly he was underwhelming. I brought him with flail and ax (what he is modeled with) and in both games he just did not do enough damage to hurt marines, especially with armor of contempt. I am going to try the big ax instead (proxy) to see if it helps, but ultimately for 350 points, he just is not worth it. Also the lose 8 wounds per phase is nice, but he lost those wounds pretty much every major phase, so it did not really help him all that much, especially since he was not killing things.

    LoC with -1 hit, -1 wound (WL) and the improved shooting attack rod relic - This guys is better, but again is not kill-y enough. I have him cast the mortal wound powers and gives himself +1T but mortal wounds from one unit only go so far. I do like the shooting relic. It gives him some decent shooting so he can contribute in the shooting phase meaningfully. However it is to short of a range. He got killed against the ultras due to being hit by a contempter with volkite and my opponent rolled 6 6's to wound. Then he got finished in CC. Also why is his BS 3? I mean really.

    herald of tzeentch on disc - support casts +1 to wound on flamers and smites and gives re-roll 1's to wound to flamers. Did what he does.

    herald of khorne on juggernaut - provided support to the blood crushers. he did ok, again his CC was very underwhelming.

    10 blue horrors - best troop unit in the daemon book. why? they only cost 70 points to sit on home objective.

    10 pink horrors - they absorb shooting right up until they are charged then they are gone. Their shooting is not great, especially against marines

    6 Blood crushers - so I love these models. And in the second game I got a charge with them with all six, and they killed a whole 10 man squad of CSM. The problem is that they die pretty easy to small arms fire even with the tough 5, and 4+(d). The first game I only got three into combat, and they did not do great. They are way overpriced.

    6 flamers - I mean broke as hell. Need to be 10 points more. However, I got charged due to LoS blocking terrain and could not overwatch. They die quick in CC. I still think they are to cheap, but I don't think they should be over 35 with that weakness to CC.

    4 screamers - they simple exist to screen for the LoC. They are not good in CC, the only thing they do and they are WAY over priced.

    Chariot of Tzeentch - The big shot is not great. It maxes at 9 damage and that is if you hit, wound and no save with all three shots. It is also pretty fragile despite the 3+(d).

    Soulgrinder of nurgle - T9 is cool, but 5+ in CC make him easy to kill in CC with weight of attacks.

    Overall thoughts,

    Daemons are a bottom tier army. They felt ok against space marines, but against CSM? It was like playing an 8th edition book. Everything in the book (except flamers and maybe souldgrinder) is over costed. Some things by a lot. Screams and bloodcrushers are like 10 points to much, horrors are no where near worth 150 points, even with the free split (I would make them 120 at most). LoC and BT are not worth over 300 points, and the hearlds feel like they are 10 to 20 points to expensive. Also there are a bunch of things that really need a glow up. Horrors should have 3 shots (then 2 for blue and 1 for the little guy) but make them all the same BS and S so I don't have to roll all those shots separately. The LoC should have BS 2 and the rod shooting should be 18 inch range and 1 better strength. The charriot (and exalted flamer) need to have d3+3 damage to make them even remotely interesting. The BT needs something to help with defense in CC against weight of dice, like maybe a true 2+ armor save that can be reduced, then on to his 4+(d) save. The warp storm table needs improvement (reduce the cost of all by 1) and as long as you have one unit of a god you should be able to use the god specific abilities regardless of mix and match.

    I don't know I don't think the book is that good. I don't think I would play it competitive at all and only use it for fun games.

    Just my thoughts.






    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/04 05:35:08


    Post by: tneva82


    Myself I use the -1 LD and range increase for that a lot. Especially turn 2 to get those sweet 6" charges out of deep strikes. Even after that the -1 LD can give more models running away.

    Flail thirster enjoyes the king of blades as an artefact I find.

    Disagree on being able to use god specifics at will with just units...There has to be SOME reason to go for mono. Not make undivided even more appealing...That would be just bonkers stupid.

    Buff god specific effects and make them cheaper. Then add mono bonus rule which requires all models to have that god(and make be'lakor break this).

    Then you have reasons to go for mix in 1 det, mix in multiple detachments and pure god.

    Going all in on "mix or you suck" is worst way they could go.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/04 12:49:24


    Post by: artific3r


    Has anyone played against Custodes yet?

    I'm wondering how much their Ld 11 hurts our deep strike. Is our warp locus deep strike reliable enough to forgo the Ld-based one? Is it even necessary to deep strike against Custodes or can we get by with walking across the table?



    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/04 15:12:47


    Post by: Arbiter_Shade


    tneva82 wrote:
    Myself I use the -1 LD and range increase for that a lot. Especially turn 2 to get those sweet 6" charges out of deep strikes. Even after that the -1 LD can give more models running away.

    Flail thirster enjoyes the king of blades as an artefact I find.

    Disagree on being able to use god specifics at will with just units...There has to be SOME reason to go for mono. Not make undivided even more appealing...That would be just bonkers stupid.

    Buff god specific effects and make them cheaper. Then add mono bonus rule which requires all models to have that god(and make be'lakor break this).

    Then you have reasons to go for mix in 1 det, mix in multiple detachments and pure god.

    Going all in on "mix or you suck" is worst way they could go.


    They could have done something like you know, given an actual buff to playing as mono-god. The god specific abilities just don't counter act the bonus of being able to take the best units for each role. There isn't a WS ability for mono-god that counter acts being able to take Flamers and Bloodthirsters together.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/04 16:35:09


    Post by: VladimirHerzog


     xeen wrote:

    Personally since we don't get a <legion> trait equivalent they should just allow access to all of the effects as long as you have one unit from that god on the table.



    wait WHAT

    holy gak the codex is even worse than i thought, i assumed that you only needed a unit to unlock them, not a whole detachment.

    for feth's sake this is sooo dissapointing


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    tneva82 wrote:

    Disagree on being able to use god specifics at will with just units...There has to be SOME reason to go for mono. Not make undivided even more appealing...That would be just bonkers stupid.


    yeah, like giving us back the locus.....

    feth i'm so dissapointed in that release, it's only getting worse and worse


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/04 19:44:45


    Post by: tneva82


    Arbiter_Shade wrote:
    tneva82 wrote:
    Myself I use the -1 LD and range increase for that a lot. Especially turn 2 to get those sweet 6" charges out of deep strikes. Even after that the -1 LD can give more models running away.

    Flail thirster enjoyes the king of blades as an artefact I find.

    Disagree on being able to use god specifics at will with just units...There has to be SOME reason to go for mono. Not make undivided even more appealing...That would be just bonkers stupid.

    Buff god specific effects and make them cheaper. Then add mono bonus rule which requires all models to have that god(and make be'lakor break this).

    Then you have reasons to go for mix in 1 det, mix in multiple detachments and pure god.

    Going all in on "mix or you suck" is worst way they could go.


    They could have done something like you know, given an actual buff to playing as mono-god. The god specific abilities just don't counter act the bonus of being able to take the best units for each role. There isn't a WS ability for mono-god that counter acts being able to take Flamers and Bloodthirsters together.


    So your solution is rather than buff mono go all in and make going mono even worse. Good job?


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/05 00:25:20


    Post by: VladimirHerzog


    tneva82 wrote:

    So your solution is rather than buff mono go all in and make going mono even worse. Good job?


    is that really what you understood from their comment??


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/05 02:23:04


    Post by: xeen


     VladimirHerzog wrote:
     xeen wrote:

    Personally since we don't get a <legion> trait equivalent they should just allow access to all of the effects as long as you have one unit from that god on the table.



    wait WHAT

    holy gak the codex is even worse than i thought, i assumed that you only needed a unit to unlock them, not a whole detachment.

    for feth's sake this is sooo dissapointing


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    tneva82 wrote:

    Disagree on being able to use god specifics at will with just units...There has to be SOME reason to go for mono. Not make undivided even more appealing...That would be just bonkers stupid.


    yeah, like giving us back the locus.....

    feth i'm so dissapointed in that release, it's only getting worse and worse


    Yea that is what that says, one unit to unlock the god bonus, not whole detachment (which is what it is now). I agree that there should be a mono-god bonus, but my point was that with the current book as is adding mono-god abilities to the mixed detachments would help, you know, not make the book so bad. Also points cost are just so so bad on everything other than flamers (which is the real issue in my mind)


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/05 02:25:33


    Post by: JNAProductions


    Looking at Plaguebearers… in a vacuum, they improved. By a bit.

    But when you take into account lost combos and synergies… yikes.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/05 03:23:22


    Post by: tneva82


     VladimirHerzog wrote:
    tneva82 wrote:

    So your solution is rather than buff mono go all in and make going mono even worse. Good job?


    is that really what you understood from their comment??


    You are the one who suggested removing only reason to not-go undivided without giving anything back. If just by having khorne model gives khorne warpstorm not much point taking khorne detachment...


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/05 12:50:03


    Post by: VladimirHerzog


    tneva82 wrote:
     VladimirHerzog wrote:
    tneva82 wrote:

    So your solution is rather than buff mono go all in and make going mono even worse. Good job?


    is that really what you understood from their comment??


    You are the one who suggested removing only reason to not-go undivided without giving anything back. If just by having khorne model gives khorne warpstorm not much point taking khorne detachment...


    ok so you misunderstood what i said.

    I said to give us back locus, you know, the monogod bonus we had in 8th edition.

    I was fully expecting them to have it (and they do... in crusade).

    Mono nurgle : you get disgustingly resilient
    Mono slaanesh : advance + charge (or fight first)
    Mono tzeentch : +1 to cast?
    Mono Khorne : +1 S/A on the charge?

    or something like that. But get rid of the "must be within x" of a character" part


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/05 13:46:41


    Post by: xerxeskingofking


    ok, so just so i understand this right, their is NO built in requirement for daemons to be mono-god as standard? I can have a bloodthrister leading Plaguebearers, with bunch of Flamers, all in the same detachment? Or am i missing something here?

    (i understand i cant soup them with CSM without being the correct mono-god, just talking a pure deamons force here)


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/05 17:22:42


    Post by: tneva82


    Correct. If same det no warp storm for specific god and aura's don't share but that's only drawbacks.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/06 15:56:23


    Post by: xerxeskingofking


    Thanks. Second question: belakor can be taken in a normal deamons detachment as a regular choice, yes? Or is he limited solely to his own army of renown?


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/06 16:00:42


    Post by: p5freak


    Belakor can be taken in a regular detachment, in his AOR, and in a supreme command detachment.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/07 07:23:19


    Post by: tneva82


    xerxeskingofking wrote:
    Thanks. Second question: belakor can be taken in a normal deamons detachment as a regular choice, yes? Or is he limited solely to his own army of renown?


    Yes. Either in supreme commander in which case he must be warlord(though unlocks all 4 god warpstorm tables) or in regular detachment at which point requirement for GD to be warlord if present is waived(funnily enough it doesn't require Be'lakor be warlord instead. Lowly herald can be warlord then as well )


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/07 11:49:19


    Post by: xerxeskingofking


    Thank you. I'm off to try and get a lord of change form my local store...and failing that, belakor.

    edit: no lord or change, no bel'kor. got myself a bloodthirster instead, because its a sodding bloodthirster.

    just trying to get my head around the Bloodflail, so i understand it right.

    the weapon in question is AP-4, damage 3d3, with the special rule "excess damage is not lost. Keep allocating excess damage to another model in the target unit until either all the excess damage has been allocated or the target unit is destroyed".

    so, If I understand correctly, you would roll to hit, to wound, and the defending player would make a single armour save at -4, then if he fails the whole unit takes 3d3 damage with no further input form the defender apart from any feel no pain type saves, correct?


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/07 19:45:01


    Post by: Mushkilla


    xerxeskingofking wrote:

    just trying to get my head around the Bloodflail, so i understand it right.

    the weapon in question is AP-4, damage 3d3, with the special rule "excess damage is not lost. Keep allocating excess damage to another model in the target unit until either all the excess damage has been allocated or the target unit is destroyed".

    so, If I understand correctly, you would roll to hit, to wound, and the defending player would make a single armour save at -4, then if he fails the whole unit takes 3d3 damage with no further input form the defender apart from any feel no pain type saves, correct?


    Correct. Also worth pointing out when you use a CP re-roll you re-roll all dice. So for 3d3 damage you can re-roll all three dice if you roll say a triple 1. Daemons don't have many good stratagems but CP re-rolls go a long way.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/07 21:00:56


    Post by: xerxeskingofking


    sweet. I feel of the three weapons options (big axe, axe and fail, axe and lash), the axe and fail is the best of the three. however, i might be off base. Is the common consensus on the extra short anti horde shooting form the lash, that shooting is a distraction that will just lengthen your charge and i should rock the great axe?


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/07 21:34:27


    Post by: Sasori


    xerxeskingofking wrote:
    sweet. I feel of the three weapons options (big axe, axe and fail, axe and lash), the axe and fail is the best of the three. however, i might be off base. Is the common consensus on the extra short anti horde shooting form the lash, that shooting is a distraction that will just lengthen your charge and i should rock the great axe?


    The current consensus is the the big axe is the best of the three, especially with Ang'grath. The issue with the flail is still needs to go through several hoops even with the possible spike/ damage spillover. Meanwhile you end up stuck with a pretty mediocre Axe weapon. The big Axe allows you to clear out Chaff and big targets. You can even clear out Terminators pretty easy with the sweeps if you took Angrath.

    This is what we are seeing pop up with folks using the bloodthirster right now, usually with the woundgate exalted.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/07 21:35:26


    Post by: ccs


    xerxeskingofking wrote:
    sweet. I feel of the three weapons options (big axe, axe and fail, axe and lash), the axe and fail is the best of the three. however, i might be off base. Is the common consensus on the extra short anti horde shooting form the lash, that shooting is a distraction that will just lengthen your charge and i should rock the great axe?


    You don't HAVE to charge the things you shoot.
    And Bloodthirsters can shoot while in CC.



    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/08 07:16:21


    Post by: tneva82


    I like axe&whip with blade of kings. It's been doing it's job and with relic sweeps marines nicely and i like having some shooting that can deal with threats i can't charge(eradicators etc).

    Albeit that's my 2nd thirster after main one.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/08 21:48:32


    Post by: xerxeskingofking


    Thankyou for your continuing help. I've gone with the great axe for simplicity. Next question, the warlord trait "devastating blow", which says that "abilities that ignore wounds cannot be used".

    What, exactly, is covered by this? "Feel no pain" type saves? Wound caps abilities like "indomitable onslaught "? Other abilities as well?


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/08 22:13:35


    Post by: tneva82


    Feel no pain and wound caps.

    Some people love it. Myself i go for fnp myself as it's always useful. From 5 games so far that would never have played. Gold in right matchup though. Steady effect all the time vs useless some(most?) Games, huge in some.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/09 03:04:13


    Post by: easysauce


    is there anything stopping daemons from materializing in the first turns reserves phase?


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/09 04:29:20


    Post by: p5freak


    Yes, its called mission rules.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/09 06:15:07


    Post by: tneva82


     easysauce wrote:
    is there anything stopping daemons from materializing in the first turns reserves phase?


    Same thing that stops terminators etc. Mission pack.


    Turns you can come and how much can be put off board is limited by mission rules. Note how no deep strike etc limits turn they can come.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/09 15:08:08


    Post by: easysauce


    tneva82 wrote:
     easysauce wrote:
    is there anything stopping daemons from materializing in the first turns reserves phase?


    Same thing that stops terminators etc. Mission pack.


    Turns you can come and how much can be put off board is limited by mission rules. Note how no deep strike etc limits turn they can come.


    thank you


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/10 07:18:47


    Post by: Hecate


    Mono-Slaanesh question:

    I recently bought some Fiends, and am unsure of tactics. I'm new. I have:

    Masque
    Enrapturess
    10 Daemonettes
    5 Seekers
    3 Fiends
    Exalted Chariot
    (I also have another starter box, unassembled.)

    That's 30 Power. I'm starting a Crusade soon, and my opponents will be Votann, Blood Angels, Tzeentch, Chaos Knights, and possibly Orks.

    I know I want a Keeper, as soon as I can afford one both in cash AND crusade points.

    Question is: What do I use as damage soak, and what's most important to get into combat?

    I expect Fiends can take out elites, and Daemonettes can crush the troops OR smaller HQ enemies. Not sure about Seekers. But in general, should I use Fiends to distract the enemy and clean up with everything else? Or do I sacrifice other units to get the Fiends into combat?

    As I said, I'm new still. Thanks in advance!


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    My instincts say to use the Seekers as damage soak for the Fiends, but that's because in the old codex, my main opponent focused on the Seekers. Not even sure how useful Seekers are.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/10 07:49:14


    Post by: tneva82


    Well you want your main damage dealer likely to come out of reserves for nice 6-7" charge(unless you are facing army with loads of LD9-10 units). That way your main punch doesn't have to deal with taking damage before it gets to attack.

    Daemonic reserve is big part of our faction abilities. Use it Generally I find first turn to be very quiet for me as I wait for main things to come out.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/10 08:38:28


    Post by: Hecate


    So, as much in reserves as possible, and protect the Enrapturess for Locus?


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/10 13:53:35


    Post by: Mushkilla


    Hecate wrote:
    So, as much in reserves as possible, and protect the Enrapturess for Locus?


    If they rush you remember you can deepstrike 3" away from enemies as long as you are wholly within your deployment zone. This effectively means anything within 7" of your deployment zone is never going to be more than a 6" charge (without locus and other buffs). This makes your half of the table a very scary place to be.

    On an unrelated note:

    Plaguebearers get an icon for free. The icon lets you ignore modifiers to combat attrition and use a stratagem (that is never worth using). Free stuff is good right? Well the icon makes the unit much harder to hide. Do you take it?


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/10 16:39:41


    Post by: tneva82


    All daemons get command models for free.

    And 40k it's basically obscuring terrain or you are visible and obscuring doesn't care about icon being taller.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/12 08:32:05


    Post by: Krull


    Any idea when the faq will be available?
    If the flamers get more expensive i hope they drop screamers and all troops also at least


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/12 08:38:06


    Post by: JakeSiren


    Typically 1 month after release, but if Codex: CSM is a clue it's closer to 6/7 weeks. So Daemons FAQ should be mid this month. (CSM came out 2nd July, FAQ was 17th August)


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/12 08:43:38


    Post by: tneva82


    Also points rarely adjusted in first FAQ anyway so not expecting the inevitable nerf of flamers there already.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/12 12:11:34


    Post by: xttz


    Daemons faq is apparently live on the 40k app, don't see a link for the PDF file yet though


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/12 12:31:47


    Post by: VladimirHerzog


    Krull wrote:
    Any idea when the faq will be available?
    If the flamers get more expensive i hope they drop screamers and all troops also at least


    Even if they don't touch flamers they should still drop the points on most other datasheet tbh.
    (and give obsec to blues and make brimstones takeable as a unit once more)


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/12 12:33:43


    Post by: EightFoldPath


    Flamers should get nerfed (if they get nerfed) when the next Chapter Approved comes out and GW release a free PDF points update via their website. GIven the last CA was out in June-ish we should be seeing something about the next CA in December.

    However, they have published an article about the way they balance the factions and it does seem they don't really look at internal faction balance that closely. So as long as Daemons as a whole aren't doing that well then Flamers might not get nerfed and weaker units (hello Nurgle) might not get buffed.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/12 12:57:34


    Post by: tneva82


    They have plenty of sale data which is what they care. When sale of op units slows due to everybody having them time to change what's the op unit next.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/12 14:47:33


    Post by: TwinPoleTheory


    I'd be surprised if Flamers went up by more than 5ppm, up by 10ppm makes them more expensive than a Terminator, which doesn't seem quite right.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/12 15:30:49


    Post by: VladimirHerzog


    hey, warpstorm table got nerfed! woohoo!

    feth this codex honestly -.-


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/12 15:42:46


    Post by: tneva82


    No it didn't. Be'lakor got tiny nerf while still being too good for points so no point crying unless you just want auto win op armies(play votann then)

    As is belakor in sc wasn't neccessarily even good pick seeing it gives up warlord trait.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/12 15:49:22


    Post by: whembly


    Need some confirmation/correction from you guys about some of the rules please.

    #1 Is there any reason WHY we would want to start on the table in turn 1, particularly if you're going second? (unless you want to use Nurgling's Mischief Makers ability). Just about the whole army could be held in Manifestation and then come in own deployment zone or no-man's land 3"-9" depending on enemies Ld.

    Right? (I'm sure you'd want to deploy on tableat if your opponents has Drop Pods or other powers to re-deploy).

    #2 Using Manifestation, you can NEVER drop down in your opponent's deployment zone... Right? Would have to use the stratagem WARP PORTAL or Noctic psychic power
    SHROUDED STEP in order to drop units to the back line? (thinking for flamer units)
    Manifestation Rule:
    Spoiler:
    During deployment, you can set up this unit in the warp instead of setting it up on the battlefield. If you do so, then in the Reinforcements step of one of your Movement phases you can set up this unit anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" away from any enemy models, or more than 6" away from any enemy models and wholly within 6" of a friendly WARP LOCUS model that was on the battlefield at the start of your turn. If that WARP LOCUS model has an Allegiance keyword, the unit being set up can only use this ability if it has the same Allegiance keyword.

    If every unit from your army has the LEGIONES DAEMONICA keyword, then in the Reinforcements step of one of your Movement phases you can instead set up this unit anywhere on the battlefield with one of the following restrictions:
  • Wholly within your deployment zone and more than 3" away from any enemy models.

  • Neither wholly within your deployment zone nor within your opponent’s deployment zone, and more than a number of inches away from each enemy unit, equal to the current Leadership characteristic of that enemy unit (to a minimum of 3" and a maximum of 9").







  • Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/12 15:55:38


    Post by: JNAProductions


    Mission Packs generally disallow having more than half your army in reserves, and coming in turn one.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/12 16:03:33


    Post by: whembly


     JNAProductions wrote:
    Mission Packs generally disallow having more than half your army in reserves, and coming in turn one.

    Yeah, if playing Nephilim that's certainly true.

    IN those missions, is it generally worth holding half army in reserve or start on table to saturate target threats?


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/12 17:04:22


    Post by: EightFoldPath


    You can come in using Manifestation in the enemy deployment zone, you have to be either 9" away or if using a Warp Locus 6" away.

    If you use Manifestation to come in in no man's land, you can then either come in 9" away or leadership away.

    Finally if you use Manifestation in your own deployment zone you can come in 3" away.

    As stated, if you play Nephilim (or any other CA) or Tempest of War, you can't put more than 50% in reserves. But, you also can't come onto the table from reserves on turn 1 in those mission packs.

    In order to work out whether you should put 50% of your army in Manifestation mode, you need to understand your opponent's army and your game plan.

    There are many armies out there who will overrun you if they go first and get two turns of moving, shooting, punching before your Manifestation units can show up.

    But then there are other armies who will stand back where the "free" movement of Manifestation will get you over to them faster than walking would.

    That understanding requires experience. So the best answer is to go out and get it.

    In general though, saturation is one of the weaker 9th edition 40k strategies. Ideally you should be giving your opponent zero targets to shoot or charge on turn one if you go second. And generally you should only expose your units if it contributes to you winning the game (scoring your own points or denying their points).


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/12 17:20:34


    Post by: VladimirHerzog


    tneva82 wrote:
    No it didn't. Be'lakor got tiny nerf while still being too good for points so no point crying unless you just want auto win op armies(play votann then)

    As is belakor in sc wasn't neccessarily even good pick seeing it gives up warlord trait.


    Yes belakor got nerfed but now it means you probably won't get access to all the warpstorm table (which is still pretty bad even with full access). And no, last thing i want is an OP army, i never played belakor in my lists anyway.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/12 17:34:32


    Post by: whembly


    EightFoldPath wrote:
    You can come in using Manifestation in the enemy deployment zone, you have to be either 9" away or if using a Warp Locus 6" away.

    Are you sure? Manifestations seems to prohibit from dropping into enemy's deployment zone:
    Neither wholly within your deployment zone nor within your opponent’s deployment zone, and more than a number of inches away from each enemy unit, equal to the current Leadership characteristic of that enemy unit (to a minimum of 3" and a maximum of 9").
    Doesn't that prohibit that in every scenario? (edit: "that" meaning dropping into enemy's deployment zone)

    If you use Manifestation to come in in no man's land, you can then either come in 9" away or leadership away.

    Finally if you use Manifestation in your own deployment zone you can come in 3" away.

    Yup, understood that.

    As stated, if you play Nephilim (or any other CA) or Tempest of War, you can't put more than 50% in reserves. But, you also can't come onto the table from reserves on turn 1 in those mission packs.

    In order to work out whether you should put 50% of your army in Manifestation mode, you need to understand your opponent's army and your game plan.

    There are many armies out there who will overrun you if they go first and get two turns of moving, shooting, punching before your Manifestation units can show up.

    But then there are other armies who will stand back where the "free" movement of Manifestation will get you over to them faster than walking would.

    That understanding requires experience. So the best answer is to go out and get it.

    In general though, saturation is one of the weaker 9th edition 40k strategies. Ideally you should be giving your opponent zero targets to shoot or charge on turn one if you go second. And generally you should only expose your units if it contributes to you winning the game (scoring your own points or denying their points).

    Good points! Thanks!!


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/12 19:13:48


    Post by: p5freak


    Manifestation
    During deployment, you can set up this unit in the warp instead of setting it up on the battlefield. If you do so, then in the Reinforcements step of one of your Movement phases you can set up this unit anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" away from any enemy models,........

    This includes the opponents deployment zone.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/12 19:21:31


    Post by: whembly


     p5freak wrote:
    Manifestation
    During deployment, you can set up this unit in the warp instead of setting it up on the battlefield. If you do so, then in the Reinforcements step of one of your Movement phases you can set up this unit anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" away from any enemy models,........

    This includes the opponents deployment zone.

    Ah, okay.

    I had it in my head that the 2nd paragraph applied additional restrictions to the 1st paragraph...

    Spoiler:
    During deployment, you can set up this unit in the warp instead of setting it up on the battlefield. If you do so, then in the Reinforcements step of one of your Movement phases you can set up this unit anywhere on the battlefield that is more than 9" away from any enemy models, or more than 6" away from any enemy models and wholly within 6" of a friendly WARP LOCUS model that was on the battlefield at the start of your turn. If that WARP LOCUS model has an Allegiance keyword, the unit being set up can only use this ability if it has the same Allegiance keyword.

    If every unit from your army has the LEGIONES DAEMONICA keyword, then in the Reinforcements step of one of your Movement phases you can instead set up this unit anywhere on the battlefield with one of the following restrictions:
  • Wholly within your deployment zone and more than 3" away from any enemy models.


  • Neither wholly within your deployment zone nor within your opponent’s deployment zone, and more than a number of inches away from each enemy unit, equal to the current Leadership characteristic of that enemy unit (to a minimum of 3" and a maximum of 9").


  • Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/12 20:24:23


    Post by: JakeSiren


    Overall I think the FAQ shows the Codex was written cleanly. There were items (like the slothful claws) where the RAI was obvious and needed a little tidying up via RAW.

    The clarification on Malefic weapons is good. I know that it was something that opinions were divided on.

    The only surprise was the detachment exclusion for Warp Storm, but I don't think it breaks anything in a meaningful way.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/12 20:33:50


    Post by: tneva82


    Bit weird how bloodletters in skull cannon are now superior to bloodletters on foot or on juggernauts though.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/13 00:23:17


    Post by: Vortenger


    I think Be'lakor went from auto-include to just a fantastic unit for his points. Losing the full warpstorm table hurts a bit. With our lack of stratagems, extra warlord traits, etc., having access to the full table allowed some plays and tricks that helped shore up the weaknesses we had elsewhere.

    Votann will still counter our GD's but after their nerf at least they won't delete multiple whole units without some effort.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/13 07:49:18


    Post by: WisdomLS


    I don't mind the Belly change, having a WL trait on a greater was likely better anyway and the God Specific WS powers are only really useful if you have a good amount of that gods units in your army, in which case taking a patrol of them isn't a huge hardship.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/13 07:50:14


    Post by: Gir Spirit Bane


    Wait, so it's not possible to modify the characteristics of an attack MADE with an Malific weapon, does that mean they ignore -1 damage and armour of contempt?


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/13 08:53:40


    Post by: tneva82


     Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
    Wait, so it's not possible to modify the characteristics of an attack MADE with an Malific weapon, does that mean they ignore -1 damage and armour of contempt?


    Yes.

    For some reasons bloodletters on bloodthrone are meaner vs marines than the herald riding it And skull cannon bloodletters. Khorne assigns best bloodletters to cannon?


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/13 09:53:38


    Post by: JakeSiren


    tneva82 wrote:
    Khorne assigns best bloodletters to cannon?
    Of course, the attendants need to be proficient at collecting skulls for shooting out of the cannon.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/13 09:58:05


    Post by: tneva82


    And juggernauts are khorne's elite plague marine hunters Bloodletters riding them can go cry in corner ;-)

    Somehow I suspect GW didn't exactly think this one through but what the heck. At least for now that's how it is.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/13 10:28:39


    Post by: p5freak


    Dont play pink horrors, you get punished for successful splitting, and replenishing the unit. When you lose 9 and you split 8 of them into 16 blue horrors, and return 3 pinks with dark inviguration, and fail the morale test, you have to roll 20 dice for combat attrition. Thats almost twice as much as you would have to roll without successful splitting, no split would be 11 dice. Turns out more models are even more scared.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/13 11:21:02


    Post by: tneva82


    You would be worse off without split so...


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/13 12:47:53


    Post by: ccs


    tneva82 wrote:
    And juggernauts are khorne's elite plague marine hunters Bloodletters riding them can go cry in corner ;-)

    Somehow I suspect GW didn't exactly think this one through but what the heck. At least for now that's how it is.


    That's just a continuation of the long running joke about the animal mount often being more dangerous than the rider.
    It's been true in WHFB for decades & continues in AoS. You just don't notice it as much in 40k because there's relatively few beast mounted units.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/13 13:09:07


    Post by: tneva82


    Well joke is joke. Very few times it's actually true though.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/13 14:06:03


    Post by: SaganGree


    tneva82 wrote:
     Gir Spirit Bane wrote:
    Wait, so it's not possible to modify the characteristics of an attack MADE with an Malific weapon, does that mean they ignore -1 damage and armour of contempt?


    Yes.

    For some reasons bloodletters on bloodthrone are meaner vs marines than the herald riding it And skull cannon bloodletters. Khorne assigns best bloodletters to cannon?


    Clarification on this if you would... I understand that you cannot change the damage characteristic of the weapon, but doesn't damage reduction, ie -1 damage, happen once the defending model receives the damage and then the damage is reduced? Therefore, the characteristic is not changed?


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/13 14:10:05


    Post by: Rihgu


    Damage reduction refers directly to the Damage characteristic, so one would assume it is modifying the Damage characteristic.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/13 14:38:36


    Post by: whembly


    Played against Sisters last night.

    My list was similar to this:
    Spoiler:
    +++ Deamon (Warhammer 40,000 9th Edition) [106 PL, 2,000pts, 1CP] +++

    ++ Vanguard Detachment -3CP (Chaos - Daemons) ++

    + No Force Org Slot +
    Changecaster: Bolt of Change, Gaze of Fate, Ritual dagger

    + HQ +
    Bloodthirster: Armor of Scorn, Great axe of Khorne, Indomitable Onslaught, Relics of the Brass Citadel

    Lord of Change: Architect of Deception, Baleful sword, Bolt of Change, Infernal Gateway, Relics of the Impossible Fortress, The Impossible Robe, Gate of Infinity

    + Troops +
    Nurglings
    . 3x Nurgling Swarms: 4x Diseased claws and teeth

    Nurglings
    . 3x Nurgling Swarms: 4x Diseased claws and teeth

    + Elites +
    Exalted Flamer

    Exalted Flamer

    Exalted Flamer

    Flamers: Pyrocaster
    . 5x Flamer: 5x Flickering flames

    Flamers: Pyrocaster
    . 2x Flamer: 2x Flickering flames

    + Heavy Support +
    Soul Grinder: Mark of Nurgle, Warpsword

    ++ Supreme Command Detachment 0CP (Chaos - Daemons) ++

    + Primarch | Daemon Primarch | Supreme Commander +
    Be'lakor: Betraying Shades, Pall of Despair, Warlord


    Some thoughts on Demons...

    Tz Demon saves 3+ against shooting is bonkers. Opponents need to get into hand-to-hand to reliably destroy Tz units.

    Flamers are pretty good, but I don't see 'em as this super broken unit and I think they're priced about right. They are annoying being that they have that glorious 3+ save against shooting.

    Be'lakor is all that. Perfect take-all-comers unit in a Demon list imo.

    Nurgle Soul Grinders is good as advertised. Expect to see 3 of these in many lists.

    Leave Armour of Scorn off of the 'Thristers. Take the Talisman. Even with Armour of Scorn, 'Thirsters being T8 is a massive buff from previous edition and my thirster survived 2.5 rounds. I'll take it.

    Warpstorm isn't all that great. Mostly took that -1 to shooting > 12". The healing one during morale is nice, but only got that once during the game. Debating if it's worth building a list to leverage WT/powers/relics that allows you to save 2 WP for next turn.

    Nurglings really don't do much. Leave 'em.

    Speaking of troops. I think the only decent troops is just the bloodletters. Spam 'em if you can. Because you need troops for obj secured and do various actions.

    Not too terribly impressed of the LoC and wonder a 2nd 'Thirster would be better.

    If I were to do a "monster bash" list... we need cheap bodies and... that's not easy in this codex.

    To be honest, I think the dark horse in this codex is any Khorne demons. I think Thirsters (incl' Skarbrand), massed bloodletters with skullcannons has significant play. However, I don't have all those models, so I'm looking at the following:
    Spoiler:
    +++ New Roster (Warhammer 40,000 9th Edition) [98 PL, 1,990pts, 3CP] +++

    ++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Chaos - Daemons) ++

    + Configuration +

    Battle Size: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)

    Chaos Allegiance: Chaos Undivided

    Detachment Command Cost

    Game Type: 4. Chapter Approved: War Zone Nephilim

    + No Force Org Slot +

    Bloodmaster: A'rgath, the King of Blades, Relics of the Brass Citadel

    + HQ +

    Be'lakor

    Bloodthirster: Blood-drinker Talisman, Devastating Blow, Great axe of Khorne, Indomitable Onslaught, Relics of the Brass Citadel, Stratagem: Warlord Trait, Warlord

    Skulltaker

    + Troops +

    Bloodletters
    . 9x Bloodletter: 9x Hellblade

    Bloodletters
    . 9x Bloodletter: 9x Hellblade

    Bloodletters
    . 9x Bloodletter: 9x Hellblade

    Bloodletters
    . 9x Bloodletter: 9x Hellblade

    + Elites +

    Beasts of Nurgle
    . 2x Beast of Nurgle: 2x Putrid appendages

    Flamers: Pyrocaster
    . 5x Flamer: 5x Flickering flames

    + Heavy Support +

    Soul Grinder: Mark of Nurgle, Warpsword


    All the various Khorne Heralds... I think they have some play, as you can fling them via Warp Portal for 1CP.



    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/13 15:52:06


    Post by: ccs


     whembly wrote:

    To be honest, I think the dark horse in this codex is any Khorne demons.


    I don't think you know what a dark horse is.
    Other than everyone gushing about Belekor, flamers, & to some degree Soul Grinders? Khorne units have been an obvious choice since day 1.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/13 23:18:53


    Post by: artific3r


    Last weekend my not-even-max-unit of 5 flamers survived a charge from a squad of howling banshees equipped with the current meta loadout (mirrorswords + piercing strikes). Banshees are one of the few autotake units in the Craftworlds book. They only managed to kill two flamers.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/13 23:24:42


    Post by: JNAProductions


    artific3r wrote:
    Last weekend my not-even-max-unit of 5 flamers survived a charge from a squad of howling banshees equipped with the current meta loadout (mirrorswords + piercing strikes). Banshees are one of the few autotake units in the Craftworlds book. They only managed to kill two flamers.
    8 attacks from the Exarch at S4 D2, plus 3 per Banshee at S4 D1.
    Considering Flamers are T4 W3, even with only a 6+ save, you'd only expect to lose one to the Exarch and maybe 2 damage to another, then not even one point of damage per regular Banshee.
    Or, put another way, a max squad of 10 Banshees puts out around 11 damage to a squad of Flamers.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/14 06:24:22


    Post by: xerxeskingofking


    ok, so, planning out my khorne deamons force up to 1k.


    so far, my list looks like:

    Bloodthirster with great axe, warlord (devastating blow), relic (King of blades)

    Bloodmaster

    2 squads of Bloodletters

    3 bloodcrushers

    8 Hounds


    its basically the combat patrol boxset, with an extra bloodletter and the 'thirster (i've already bought the thirster and extra letters, will get the patrol box at xmas). does that sound like a reasonable force, or am i trying to squash a bloodthrister into too small a points value?


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/14 06:32:13


    Post by: ccs


    Should work fine.

    I'd also pick up a Skull Cannon - and magnetize it so you can use it as either the cannon or throne - for occasional use.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/14 07:46:29


    Post by: Twilight Pathways


     JNAProductions wrote:
    artific3r wrote:
    Last weekend my not-even-max-unit of 5 flamers survived a charge from a squad of howling banshees equipped with the current meta loadout (mirrorswords + piercing strikes). Banshees are one of the few autotake units in the Craftworlds book. They only managed to kill two flamers.
    8 attacks from the Exarch at S4 D2, plus 3 per Banshee at S4 D1.
    Considering Flamers are T4 W3, even with only a 6+ save, you'd only expect to lose one to the Exarch and maybe 2 damage to another, then not even one point of damage per regular Banshee.
    Or, put another way, a max squad of 10 Banshees puts out around 11 damage to a squad of Flamers.


    Looks like you forgot to account for +1 to wound on the charge and the exarch having 10 attacks - the exarch kills 2 on average then the other 4 kill another one (1.11 wounds each)


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/14 13:37:10


    Post by: artific3r


     JNAProductions wrote:
    artific3r wrote:
    Last weekend my not-even-max-unit of 5 flamers survived a charge from a squad of howling banshees equipped with the current meta loadout (mirrorswords + piercing strikes). Banshees are one of the few autotake units in the Craftworlds book. They only managed to kill two flamers.
    8 attacks from the Exarch at S4 D2, plus 3 per Banshee at S4 D1.
    Considering Flamers are T4 W3, even with only a 6+ save, you'd only expect to lose one to the Exarch and maybe 2 damage to another, then not even one point of damage per regular Banshee.
    Or, put another way, a max squad of 10 Banshees puts out around 11 damage to a squad of Flamers.


    Banshee Exarch has 10 attacks at that profile (exarch trait grants +1A) but yeah, banshees are not good into flamers. I have no idea why they randomly gave flamers +1W this edition. I assumed the 6+ save meant they would just melt in melee against anything, but I realize now they are surprisingly tough against anti-elite melee since a lot of it is D2, which is just awful against 3W models.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/15 01:28:21


    Post by: Telamoniades


    Hey all. 40K newb here coming from Sigmar. I have large-ish Tzeentch and Slaanesh armies in that game and was hoping to use them to indulge my 40Kuriosity.

    I don’t have a great grasp on the game yet, so I was wondering if people think Tzeentch + Slaanesh is a reasonable combo for “down at the shop” games.

    This is what I’ve roughed out so far, although this isn’t really a list help question so much as a “is the concept worth investigating at all” question. 1k seems to be the most played size at my GW store.

    Patrol Detachment, 1k on da nose

    HQ
    Lord of Change, Exalted, Robe, Boon, Architect
    Changecaster (bonus hq slot) Staff
    Tormentbringer on Exalted Chariot

    Troops
    10 Daemonettes x2
    10 Blue Horrors

    Elite
    6 Flamers




    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/15 04:38:12


    Post by: ccs


     Telamoniades wrote:
    Hey all. 40K newb here coming from Sigmar. I have large-ish Tzeentch and Slaanesh armies in that game and was hoping to use them to indulge my 40Kuriosity.

    I don’t have a great grasp on the game yet, so I was wondering if people think Tzeentch + Slaanesh is a reasonable combo for “down at the shop” games.

    This is what I’ve roughed out so far, although this isn’t really a list help question so much as a “is the concept worth investigating at all” question. 1k seems to be the most played size at my GW store.

    Patrol Detachment, 1k on da nose

    HQ
    Lord of Change, Exalted, Robe, Boon, Architect
    Changecaster (bonus hq slot) Staff
    Tormentbringer on Exalted Chariot

    Troops
    10 Daemonettes x2
    10 Blue Horrors

    Elite
    6 Flamers




    Should work. Naturally what opponents you play might affect it. But give it spin, see what you think. Tty different mixes week to week.
    As you've indicated that you already have sizable forces, you don't really have anything to risk other than time.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/15 16:41:05


    Post by: tneva82


    At 1k the master mutator might be meaner exalted. Warpstorm can often provide -1 to hit and with robe tough to kill anyway. For warlord trait +1 to psychic might be idea. Also loc has 3 spells to pick.

    Flamers would likely be better at 2x3. 3 kills most stuff anyway. 2x3 can delete 2 units.

    Odds are you will win more than lose. Might not get much friends with 6 flamers at 1k. Those are so busted i feel bad bringing 3.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/16 02:01:05


    Post by: artific3r


    Flamers are so good that competitive tsons players are souping them in.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/16 06:24:32


    Post by: tneva82


    They are so good they could get +10 pts hike and 3x6 would still be pretty much obvious choice for 2k list...

    3 of them + LOC basically singlehandedly tabled drukhari in 1k game yesterday in such a lopsided way in the end I could just for lolz charge flamers(they aren't good in melee for the record) and LOC just because it was already decided. I could have just smited the archaon but charged in just to give opponent something to do beside removing models...

    d6+3 autohits at S5 -2 is just sick, 3 wounds is pretty good making d2 weapons ineffective and 3+ save vs shooting? Holy. Just make sure opponent doesn't have easy charge something+pile into them or charge them out of LOS and they are never going to dissapoint you.



    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/16 06:39:44


    Post by: TwinPoleTheory


    tneva82 wrote:
    They are so good they could get +10 pts hike and 3x6 would still be pretty much obvious choice for 2k list...


    Only because the rest of the choices in the list are so bad I think. Seriously, you have the LoC, Be'lakor, Kairos, flamers and...?

    At 35 points, they cost more than a CSM Terminator, I don't think they're that good. Against a lot of opponents, yes, they are a serious problem, 30 points is probably about right I suspect.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/16 06:43:33


    Post by: tneva82


    Lol. So bad that I'm having over 80% win rate(other armies generally 40%...) without spamming flamers, not having Be'lakor nor Kairos. Mostly been playing mono khorne.

    Ah well. Daemon players! Expecting everything being delete good and if not they are bad.

    Only other army I'm having this kind of win rate is daughters of khaine in AOS and they are one of the top armies there...


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/16 14:32:02


    Post by: TwinPoleTheory


    tneva82 wrote:
    Lol. So bad that I'm having over 80% win rate(other armies generally 40%...) without spamming flamers, not having Be'lakor nor Kairos. Mostly been playing mono khorne.

    Ah well. Daemon players! Expecting everything being delete good and if not they are bad.

    Only other army I'm having this kind of win rate is daughters of khaine in AOS and they are one of the top armies there...


    Do you have an actual response? Or just anecdotal evidence of victory on your local scene?

    Even better, if we're using your anecdotal evidence, how is your mono Khorne victory percentage relevant to the cost of Flamers?

    Do you think flamers should be more expensive than a CSM Terminator? Would you care to show your work?


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/16 20:11:53


    Post by: Void__Dragon


    tneva82 wrote:
    Lol. So bad that I'm having over 80% win rate(other armies generally 40%...) without spamming flamers, not having Be'lakor nor Kairos. Mostly been playing mono khorne.

    Ah well. Daemon players! Expecting everything being delete good and if not they are bad.

    Only other army I'm having this kind of win rate is daughters of khaine in AOS and they are one of the top armies there...


    Yeah but you're a bad player playing against other bad players. Who cares about your games?


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/17 12:14:31


    Post by: xerxeskingofking


    Stupid question: do malefic weapons get re rolls?

    Exact wording of the rule is

    "Unless otherwise specified, malefic weapons are never affected by effects or abilities that allow models to make additional attacks, or abilities that would add to, subtract from, or improve their characteristics in any way"


    Which I'm pretty sure means you get rerolls, but just checking


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/17 13:20:53


    Post by: artific3r


    Yes they do, since re-rolls don't change anything about the weapon's profile (number of attacks, strength, AP, or damage characteristic). There aren't that many things that actually interact with malefic weapons, the big ones being -1D and AoC.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/17 13:46:46


    Post by: VladimirHerzog


    tneva82 wrote:
    Lol. So bad that I'm having over 80% win rate(other armies generally 40%...) without spamming flamers, not having Be'lakor nor Kairos. Mostly been playing mono khorne.

    Ah well. Daemon players! Expecting everything being delete good and if not they are bad.

    Only other army I'm having this kind of win rate is daughters of khaine in AOS and they are one of the top armies there...


    Mono khorne is the best mono god lol, you're basically playing the #2 best list (possibly #1 now that belakor got nerfed).


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/17 14:26:17


    Post by: tneva82


    I have no be'lakor nor flamers which is what keeps appearing on tournament winning daemons. 3x3 is pretty much minimum you see when you look at tournament doing lists.

    And be'lakor didn't exactly get nerfed. As it is it was more often than not used NOT in supreme commander as giving up good warlord trait for junk isn't good trade generally especially as warpstorm effects for different gods are pretty weak. Khorne ones suck(out of my games those have had literally 0 impact from total of 11 uses), tzeentch would require lots of tzeentch casters to use and nurgle and slaanesh one's aren't that hot either. Slaanesh has some use but generally undivided ones are still way more useful.

    So Be'lakor didn't exactly get nerfed when the most common way to use it remained untouched...Be'lakor's point isn't warpstorm tables. If you brought him for those then lol you are missing 99.99% of him. He's a) tough b) fast c) hits pretty hard d) is warp locus e) unlocks tzeentch stratagems(one that is in particular useful combined with point d)

    Slaanesh also is seen doing good in tournaments. Only nurgle ones are suffering.

    If Be'lakor had lost access to god specific stratagems THAT would been nerf worthy of mention.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/17 16:02:21


    Post by: TwinPoleTheory


    tneva82 wrote:
    I have no be'lakor nor flamers which is what keeps appearing on tournament winning daemons. 3x3 is pretty much minimum you see when you look at tournament doing lists.


    Which tournaments? Perhaps a list with some indication of how many players participated?

    Because if I recall correctly, Daemons have won maybe 1 tournament of any significance.

    However, I'd be happy to have my data updated. They seem to be falling into a gatekeeper role though.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/18 09:40:11


    Post by: p5freak


    Belakor isnt really tough. In a tournament environment he will likely die T2, maybe even T1. A BT tank with 8 wound cap, 5+ FNP and 5+ regain wounds will last much longer.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/18 13:48:22


    Post by: whembly


     p5freak wrote:
    Belakor isnt really tough. In a tournament environment he will likely die T2, maybe even T1. A BT tank with 8 wound cap, 5+ FNP and 5+ regain wounds will last much longer.

    Why not both?

    A good, well balanced army can knock out that BT by T2 as well.

    If you're going to bring big bois, bring multiples.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/18 14:46:06


    Post by: Sasori


    The main thing we saw with Bel'akor was that there was a split between bringing him the regular HQ slot or Supcom. Now there is zero reason to bring him in the Supcom. If you are brining him, just bring him in the regular HQ slot so you can get a more useful WLT.

    That being said, we have seen lists without Bel'akor doing well. The BT + LOC has been seen a few times.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/18 15:00:35


    Post by: Arbiter_Shade


     p5freak wrote:
    Belakor isnt really tough. In a tournament environment he will likely die T2, maybe even T1. A BT tank with 8 wound cap, 5+ FNP and 5+ regain wounds will last much longer.


    While I agree with you in principle, in practice if you have Belakor+BT tank+LOC your opponent is gonna have a real hard time taking them all down because each one is going to take a significant amount of fire to bring down.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/19 00:10:39


    Post by: artific3r


    Art of War did a unit tier list today and straight up said flamers were the best unit in the game. And it’s not close.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/19 00:51:49


    Post by: JNAProductions


    artific3r wrote:
    Art of War did a unit tier list today and straight up said flamers were the best unit in the game. And it’s not close.
    A model that kills one Marine in shooting (if the Marine isn’t in cover) is the best in game?


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/19 01:02:45


    Post by: Void__Dragon


     JNAProductions wrote:
    artific3r wrote:
    Art of War did a unit tier list today and straight up said flamers were the best unit in the game. And it’s not close.
    A model that kills one Marine in shooting (if the Marine isn’t in cover) is the best in game?


    With no buffs it does an average of 3 wounds to Marines, or about 30 points worth for a 25 point model. A single shooting phase getting back more than its point cost is good on baseline. All the buffs you can layer onto them even moreso, especially considering they are surprisingly durable, mobile, and have innate deep strike.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/19 01:04:35


    Post by: JNAProductions


     Void__Dragon wrote:
     JNAProductions wrote:
    artific3r wrote:
    Art of War did a unit tier list today and straight up said flamers were the best unit in the game. And it’s not close.
    A model that kills one Marine in shooting (if the Marine isn’t in cover) is the best in game?


    With no buffs it does an average of 3 wounds to Marines, or about 30 points worth for a 25 point model. A single shooting phase getting back more than its point cost is good on baseline. All the buffs you can layer onto them even moreso, especially considering they are surprisingly durable, mobile, and have innate deep strike.
    1d6+3 S5 AP-2 D1 shots.
    13/2 hits (auto-hitting)
    26/6 or 13/3 wounds, on the 3+
    13/6 failed saves, on the 4+ (thanks to AoC)
    That’s just over 2 damage. Not 3.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/19 01:51:59


    Post by: Ecdain


    Hi all! I'm tuning up a list for an upcoming tournament and feel my list is lacking some speed, how are people feeling about flesh hounds/screamers? I'd do fiends but I'm a pure khorne patrol and a tzeentch vanguard to unlock warpstorm so that'd be hard to fit in :(


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/19 03:33:24


    Post by: ccs


    Ecdain wrote:
    Hi all! I'm tuning up a list for an upcoming tournament and feel my list is lacking some speed, how are people feeling about flesh hounds/screamers?


    As a pure Khorne player? I love my Khorne dogs. My demons never go to battle without them. They've taken objectives, eaten termies, tied up enemy units screened my backfield.... And I love the current sculpts.

    Screamers? Well, the only place I play any Tzeentch demons is in War Cry. And I only own 1 screamer (it's all I need in that game) But I can definitely see some use for them. Mostly grabbing objectives while other demons do the fighting. Current model isn't bad.



    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/19 14:31:09


    Post by: artific3r


     JNAProductions wrote:
     Void__Dragon wrote:
     JNAProductions wrote:
    artific3r wrote:
    Art of War did a unit tier list today and straight up said flamers were the best unit in the game. And it’s not close.
    A model that kills one Marine in shooting (if the Marine isn’t in cover) is the best in game?


    With no buffs it does an average of 3 wounds to Marines, or about 30 points worth for a 25 point model. A single shooting phase getting back more than its point cost is good on baseline. All the buffs you can layer onto them even moreso, especially considering they are surprisingly durable, mobile, and have innate deep strike.
    1d6+3 S5 AP-2 D1 shots.
    13/2 hits (auto-hitting)
    26/6 or 13/3 wounds, on the 3+
    13/6 failed saves, on the 4+ (thanks to AoC)
    That’s just over 2 damage. Not 3.


    Easy access to +1S, +2S with Boon of Change, +1 to wound, re-roll 1s to wound, -1T on your target, can deep strike, can teleport, 12" fly move, difficult to shoot, difficult to charge, not even that fragile after being charged since 3W per model.

    With all the buffs they're autohitting 40ish shots, wounding T7 on 2s, rerolling ones. Most of the time your target's rolling 30-40 saves at AP2. And when your flamers are done shooting, they aren't even that easy to kill. They will fly/teleport away to wipe another target if your opponent doesn't deal with them. The damage is absurd when you stack buffs on them (and you are going to stack buffs on them because why would you buff anything else), but the thing that takes them over the top is their amazing mobility and durability for their cost. It's 125-150 points for a unit that's tricky to remove and threatens to pick up 2+ units anywhere on the board if not dealt with.





    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/19 14:39:05


    Post by: JNAProductions


    That doesn’t change the unbuffed math.
    If Art of War claimed they do an average of 3 wounds to MEQ without buffs, they’re just plain wrong.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/19 14:57:15


    Post by: artific3r


    Do you have something to contribute to this topic or are you just looking to be contrarian?

    Flamers are pretty obviously one of the best units in the game, and have a high chance of being nerfed in the coming weeks. You don't have to be embarrassed about it.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/19 14:59:15


    Post by: JNAProductions


    artific3r wrote:
    Do you have something to contribute to this topic or are you just looking to be contrarian?

    Flamers are pretty obviously one of the best units in the game, and have a high chance of being nerfed in the coming weeks. You don't have to be embarrassed about it.
    I didn't say they weren't.

    But can I get a link to the Art of War article? Because again-if they said (and not just Void Dragon) that an unbuffed Flamer does 3 wounds to a Marine on average... That's just plain wrong.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/19 20:08:09


    Post by: Ecdain


    ccs wrote:
    Ecdain wrote:
    Hi all! I'm tuning up a list for an upcoming tournament and feel my list is lacking some speed, how are people feeling about flesh hounds/screamers?


    As a pure Khorne player? I love my Khorne dogs. My demons never go to battle without them. They've taken objectives, eaten termies, tied up enemy units screened my backfield.... And I love the current sculpts.

    Screamers? Well, the only place I play any Tzeentch demons is in War Cry. And I only own 1 screamer (it's all I need in that game) But I can definitely see some use for them. Mostly grabbing objectives while other demons do the fighting. Current model isn't bad.



    Yeah ive tried hounds once and they did pretty much everything, just not amazing at any of it. But they are pretty great utility being quick, unlocking a 3+ deny strat and being able to deny themselves as well having a flamer(albeit not as good as the flamers but that makes sense to me xD). Just wish they hit a little harder...

    Screamers I've always loved the idea of, SUPER fast, decent survivability now with the 3++ to shooting. Camping with them in a corner isn't bad at all. But hitting on 4s just loses it for me 😞

    The problem for me I feel is that fiends exist and I can't help but compare.. they are so good at their roles I makes me seriously consider breaking warpstorm bonus to bring them


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/19 21:06:09


    Post by: tneva82


    Also when your charge attack buff is +1dam from 1 to 2 in a world where -1 dam exists...Feels iffy.

    Well haven't had much use from them yet. First go yesterday vs dark angels. They were fast so got to objective quickly which was nice and kept dreadnought busy for a while but nothing spectacular but then again when only thing nearby is dreadnought not much for them to do. Besides keep dreadnought busy long enough for LOC to greet it with wave of mortal wounds

    Myself for speed have used bloodcrushers but flesh hounds are on next to-try list.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/19 22:19:05


    Post by: Ecdain


    tneva82 wrote:
    Also when your charge attack buff is +1dam from 1 to 2 in a world where -1 dam exists...Feels iffy.

    Well haven't had much use from them yet. First go yesterday vs dark angels. They were fast so got to objective quickly which was nice and kept dreadnought busy for a while but nothing spectacular but then again when only thing nearby is dreadnought not much for them to do. Besides keep dreadnought busy long enough for LOC to greet it with wave of mortal wounds

    Myself for speed have used bloodcrushers but flesh hounds are on next to-try list.


    Pretty much the same, I brought 2x5 against orks. One screened my characters and lasted exactly as long as it took him to charge them, and the other swung round the side to tick up reality rebels and fight for a far off objective(lost to boys but bought time for flamers to catch up and win that side of the board). They weren't amazing, but their jobs got done.

    Fiends though! 14" move T5 4W, squad of 5 swings in for 21 S5 -2 D2 and another 5 S5 -3 D2 attacks hitting on 3s. Plus the -1 to hit to engaged units. Add the 5+ fnp spell and enrapturess to bring one back every turn. That's a unit that's more than annoying on your flank! Depending on how bad flamers get nerfed I might bring in this slasnesh package to replace it honestly, would vice different feel and playstyle, but I think would be pretty great pressure


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/20 03:56:42


    Post by: Void__Dragon


     JNAProductions wrote:
    That doesn’t change the unbuffed math.
    If Art of War claimed they do an average of 3 wounds to MEQ without buffs, they’re just plain wrong.


    I actually just forgot to factor in Armour of Contempt tbh


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/20 03:58:31


    Post by: JNAProductions


     Void__Dragon wrote:
     JNAProductions wrote:
    That doesn’t change the unbuffed math.
    If Art of War claimed they do an average of 3 wounds to MEQ without buffs, they’re just plain wrong.


    I actually just forgot to factor in Armour of Contempt tbh
    Fair.

    I’d still be curious to see the Art of War article, but I completely understand forgetting one of Marine’s million and one special rules.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/21 15:24:43


    Post by: WindstormSCR


    Ecdain wrote:

    Screamers I've always loved the idea of, SUPER fast, decent survivability now with the 3++ to shooting. Camping with them in a corner isn't bad at all. But hitting on 4s just loses it for me 😞


    I've been using screamers to selectively murder characters by overflying them. takes some positioning to pull off, but works great


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/21 15:42:53


    Post by: Rihgu


     JNAProductions wrote:
     Void__Dragon wrote:
     JNAProductions wrote:
    That doesn’t change the unbuffed math.
    If Art of War claimed they do an average of 3 wounds to MEQ without buffs, they’re just plain wrong.


    I actually just forgot to factor in Armour of Contempt tbh
    Fair.

    I’d still be curious to see the Art of War article, but I completely understand forgetting one of Marine’s million and one special rules.





    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/23 22:19:51


    Post by: VladimirHerzog


     WindstormSCR wrote:
    Ecdain wrote:

    Screamers I've always loved the idea of, SUPER fast, decent survivability now with the 3++ to shooting. Camping with them in a corner isn't bad at all. But hitting on 4s just loses it for me 😞


    I've been using screamers to selectively murder characters by overflying them. takes some positioning to pull off, but works great


    wait, how? 6 screamers will do ~3 mortals on average


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/24 05:07:00


    Post by: JakeSiren


     VladimirHerzog wrote:
    wait, how? 6 screamers will do ~3 mortals on average
    I imagine it would depend on the types of characters you are facing. There are a number that have 4 wounds (Sisters and Guard). Also a mix of Bolt of Change and Infernal Gateway would help considerably.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/24 12:45:46


    Post by: VladimirHerzog


    JakeSiren wrote:
     VladimirHerzog wrote:
    wait, how? 6 screamers will do ~3 mortals on average
    I imagine it would depend on the types of characters you are facing. There are a number that have 4 wounds (Sisters and Guard). Also a mix of Bolt of Change and Infernal Gateway would help considerably.


    but then you're using 180 pts of screamers to kill characters that are less than 100pts (and losing your screamers because theyre so fragile), unless the characters have reallllly good auras, i don't see it as a worthwhile trade personally.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/24 13:01:58


    Post by: Ecdain


     VladimirHerzog wrote:
    JakeSiren wrote:
     VladimirHerzog wrote:
    wait, how? 6 screamers will do ~3 mortals on average
    I imagine it would depend on the types of characters you are facing. There are a number that have 4 wounds (Sisters and Guard). Also a mix of Bolt of Change and Infernal Gateway would help considerably.


    but then you're using 180 pts of screamers to kill characters that are less than 100pts (and losing your screamers because theyre so fragile), unless the characters have reallllly good auras, i don't see it as a worthwhile trade personally.


    Agreed, I don't bring them because of how unreliable they are in a fight. To me they are secondary shuttles and maybe hit a backline obj.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/24 14:08:03


    Post by: WindstormSCR


    VladimirHerzog wrote:
     WindstormSCR wrote:
    Ecdain wrote:

    Screamers I've always loved the idea of, SUPER fast, decent survivability now with the 3++ to shooting. Camping with them in a corner isn't bad at all. But hitting on 4s just loses it for me 😞


    I've been using screamers to selectively murder characters by overflying them. takes some positioning to pull off, but works great


    wait, how? 6 screamers will do ~3 mortals on average


    As was posted, I face a lot of Eldar/Guard/Sisters/GSC, stuff that has lower wounds count for support characters. it's less directly intentional and more just trying to work them in as targets of opportunity.


    VladimirHerzog wrote:
    JakeSiren wrote:
     VladimirHerzog wrote:
    wait, how? 6 screamers will do ~3 mortals on average
    I imagine it would depend on the types of characters you are facing. There are a number that have 4 wounds (Sisters and Guard). Also a mix of Bolt of Change and Infernal Gateway would help considerably.


    but then you're using 180 pts of screamers to kill characters that are less than 100pts (and losing your screamers because theyre so fragile), unless the characters have reallllly good auras, i don't see it as a worthwhile trade personally.


    Its less that you're dedicating them to character killing and more as stated an opportunistic thing. the main reason I take them is because they're fast for objective capture, reasonably durable against shooting, and great at removing vehicles from the board, with a unit of 6 easily capable of removing more than their points value simply with a mix of overflight MW and chewing apart a tank.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/25 07:58:16


    Post by: p5freak


    It takes 6 screamers two fight phases, maybe even three, to chew through a T7 W12 tank, thats not great. With 1CP for that +1 to wound strat you can kill that tank in two fight phases. Who still plays tanks anyway ? Guard is the only faction i can think of.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/25 09:56:27


    Post by: WindstormSCR


     p5freak wrote:
    It takes 6 screamers two fight phases, maybe even three, to chew through a T7 W12 tank, thats not great. With 1CP for that +1 to wound strat you can kill that tank in two fight phases. Who still plays tanks anyway ? Guard is the only faction i can think of.


    base screamers yes, but if you're using screamers as can openers you generally don't leave them unbuffed. warp jaws, boon of change, maybe a fateskimmer or LoC (or belakor) nearby. the herald RR1s to wound aura makes a big difference, actually slightly more of a difference than rr1s to hit.

    yes people will argue to use boon on flamers, but that's not always the best call depending on what you're targeting with flamers. most of the time as long as you can get the flamers to S6 (via exalted) that's a good enough breakpoint for most of what you're shooting.

    Ideal usage of points is debatable, but I've found fasteskimmer backing said screamers to be enough of a threat that it soaks up a ton of hate from my regular opponents.




    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/25 10:56:19


    Post by: p5freak


     WindstormSCR wrote:

    base screamers yes, but if you're using screamers as can openers you generally don't leave them unbuffed. warp jaws, boon of change, maybe a fateskimmer or LoC (or belakor) nearby. the herald RR1s to wound aura makes a big difference, actually slightly more of a difference than rr1s to hit.


    Thats a lot of resources to kill a ~100 pts. tank.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/25 11:03:48


    Post by: tneva82


     p5freak wrote:
     WindstormSCR wrote:

    base screamers yes, but if you're using screamers as can openers you generally don't leave them unbuffed. warp jaws, boon of change, maybe a fateskimmer or LoC (or belakor) nearby. the herald RR1s to wound aura makes a big difference, actually slightly more of a difference than rr1s to hit.


    Thats a lot of resources to kill a ~100 pts. tank.


    So send in vs more expensive tank.

    But shows how silly game damage is when <200 unit is expected to one shot way more expensive than 100 pts unit. For good game 300 pts unit shouldn't be able to one shot reliably anything above 100 pts.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/25 11:50:25


    Post by: WindstormSCR


     p5freak wrote:
     WindstormSCR wrote:

    base screamers yes, but if you're using screamers as can openers you generally don't leave them unbuffed. warp jaws, boon of change, maybe a fateskimmer or LoC (or belakor) nearby. the herald RR1s to wound aura makes a big difference, actually slightly more of a difference than rr1s to hit.


    Thats a lot of resources to kill a ~100 pts. tank.


    I'm talking about a T8 target, not T7. so things that are usually in the 150+ points range

    out of 18 attacks, if a fateskimmer is nearby, you're getting 3 autowounds usually:
    https://anydice.com/program/2bb29

    then if not rerolling 1s, an average of 6-7 other attacks succeeding:
    https://anydice.com/program/2bb2a

    Fateskimmer gives RR1s to wound base, warp jaws +1 to wound, and boon str 7. meaning vs a T8 vehicle you'd need 4s (with each then saved on 6s):
    https://anydice.com/program/2bb2c

    End result is most of the time you will do the necessary 12-14 wounds needed to kill a T8 target, and easily break open T7s without needing to invest as much. bikes and lighter transports (venoms, buggies, etc) are an especially good option to kill



    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/25 15:50:10


    Post by: ccs


     p5freak wrote:
    It takes 6 screamers two fight phases, maybe even three, to chew through a T7 W12 tank, thats not great. With 1CP for that +1 to wound strat you can kill that tank in two fight phases.


    Ok. Pretend you're a Tzeentch player. What would you send against a tank? That's not already busy dealing with something else?


     p5freak wrote:
    Who still plays tanks anyway ? Guard is the only faction i can think of.


    Well my Grot army is almost exclusively made up of vehicles - grot tanks, mega-tanks, gunz, trucks, a Wazbomb.
    And I've seen plenty of other Ork players using plenty of buggies, trucks, flyers, kill rigs, etc.
    I've never seen a functional Harliquin force that doesn't bring star/void weavers. And alot of Drukhari players seem to think Raiders & Ravagers are important elements of their force....
    In a week or three I don't think you'll see very many Votann players without vehicles.
    And of course Knights (does it really matter if your tank has treads or walks on two legs?).

    And regardless of whatever you're seeing in your tournies, I assure you that vehicles of all sorts are being used in casual/pick-up game play.



    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/25 16:01:40


    Post by: VladimirHerzog


    ccs wrote:
     p5freak wrote:
    It takes 6 screamers two fight phases, maybe even three, to chew through a T7 W12 tank, thats not great. With 1CP for that +1 to wound strat you can kill that tank in two fight phases.


    Ok. Pretend you're a Tzeentch player. What would you send against a tank? That's not already busy dealing with something else?



    flamers and mortal wounds

    or even better : just ignore it and cockblock it with your 3+ save


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/25 16:29:07


    Post by: tneva82


    ccs wrote:
     p5freak wrote:
    It takes 6 screamers two fight phases, maybe even three, to chew through a T7 W12 tank, thats not great. With 1CP for that +1 to wound strat you can kill that tank in two fight phases.


    Ok. Pretend you're a Tzeentch player. What would you send against a tank? That's not already busy dealing with something else?


     p5freak wrote:
    Who still plays tanks anyway ? Guard is the only faction i can think of.


    Well my Grot army is almost exclusively made up of vehicles - grot tanks, mega-tanks, gunz, trucks, a Wazbomb.
    And I've seen plenty of other Ork players using plenty of buggies, trucks, flyers, kill rigs, etc.
    I've never seen a functional Harliquin force that doesn't bring star/void weavers. And alot of Drukhari players seem to think Raiders & Ravagers are important elements of their force....
    In a week or three I don't think you'll see very many Votann players without vehicles.
    And of course Knights (does it really matter if your tank has treads or walks on two legs?).

    And regardless of whatever you're seeing in your tournies, I assure you that vehicles of all sorts are being used in casual/pick-up game play.



    Well i presume you have flamers and those delete anything.

    Alternatively l presume not tougher than wardog so loc can deal with one.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/25 19:13:02


    Post by: p5freak


    As a mono Tzeentch player you are screwed against a vehicle list. I don't think any mono faction will be successful in the long run. All have their strength and weakness. Mixing is the way to go, and as it looks like so far Tzeentch and Khorne is a good combination.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/26 09:18:09


    Post by: WindstormSCR


     p5freak wrote:
    As a mono Tzeentch player you are screwed against a vehicle list.


    uh.... no, very hard no.

    plenty of ways of dealing with vehicles, from screamers to the multi-smites and other mind bullets you should be packing as mono tzeentch, to say nothing of the flamers and exalteds.

    of all the potential mono-god lists, tzeentch is pretty much the most prepared for dealing with vehicles because they don't need big smashy greater daemons to get the job done.

    Nurgle is probably second best on account of MW output and auto-wounds on 'plague weapons', but still relies more on melee


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/26 09:55:48


    Post by: tneva82


     p5freak wrote:
    As a mono Tzeentch player you are screwed against a vehicle list. I don't think any mono faction will be successful in the long run. All have their strength and weakness. Mixing is the way to go, and as it looks like so far Tzeentch and Khorne is a good combination.


    Are vehicles tougher than 22W T8 4+ unrendable?

    Howabout T7 W14 3+/5++ -1dam?

    If those are eaten alive by tzeentch how much harder vehicles can be?


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/26 11:03:47


    Post by: Valkyrie


    I was unpacking my 40k stuff in my new flat and came across my Tzeench stuff, which I've never actually used in a game before. Would be good to finally give them a go but I'm pretty lost when it comes to working out how to actually run a psychic-heavy force, as one failed test seems to screw up most tactics from what I've seen.

    I currently have the following at my disposal:

    Lord of Change (could count as Kairos due to the conversion work)
    Daemon Prince
    2x Heralds, magnetised so can be on foot or Disk

    30x Horrors
    10x Blue Horrors

    6x Screamers

    9x Flamers

    2x Exalted Flamers, can be the chariot version if the Heralds are on foot.

    A rough estimation on Battlescribe shows this is rather close to 2000 points but it seems really light in terms of numbers. I'm just wondering what the general tactics are for a mono-Tzeench force. Seems there's been some discussion about vehicles but I can just see the majority of this force getting gunned down pretty quickly.



    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/26 11:26:58


    Post by: p5freak


     WindstormSCR wrote:
     p5freak wrote:
    As a mono Tzeentch player you are screwed against a vehicle list.


    uh.... no, very hard no.

    plenty of ways of dealing with vehicles, from screamers to the multi-smites and other mind bullets you should be packing as mono tzeentch, to say nothing of the flamers and exalteds.

    of all the potential mono-god lists, tzeentch is pretty much the most prepared for dealing with vehicles because they don't need big smashy greater daemons to get the job done.

    Nurgle is probably second best on account of MW output and auto-wounds on 'plague weapons', but still relies more on melee


    We will talk again when the new AM Codex arrives. Your smites will go into guardsmen, your screamers will kill guardsmen which screen tanks, and the enemy artillery will crush your units, your 3+ daemon save will not matter against hundreds of hits with indirect fire.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/26 12:45:38


    Post by: WindstormSCR


     p5freak wrote:


    We will talk again when the new AM Codex arrives. Your smites will go into guardsmen, your screamers will kill guardsmen which screen tanks, and the enemy artillery will crush your units, your 3+ daemon save will not matter against hundreds of hits with indirect fire.


    Preeeetty sure if I can handle hydra tyranids backed by things like rupture cannons and hive guard, guardsmen won't be an issue. same screening problems (actually worse because the screen regenerates) and they get handled fine.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/27 04:17:40


    Post by: Void__Dragon


     WindstormSCR wrote:
    [hive guard


    lol


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/27 04:34:10


    Post by: Arbiter_Shade


     WindstormSCR wrote:
     p5freak wrote:
    As a mono Tzeentch player you are screwed against a vehicle list.


    uh.... no, very hard no.

    plenty of ways of dealing with vehicles, from screamers to the multi-smites and other mind bullets you should be packing as mono tzeentch, to say nothing of the flamers and exalteds.

    of all the potential mono-god lists, tzeentch is pretty much the most prepared for dealing with vehicles because they don't need big smashy greater daemons to get the job done.

    Nurgle is probably second best on account of MW output and auto-wounds on 'plague weapons', but still relies more on melee


    Nurgle is terrible at killing vehicles, autowounding on 6's doesn't mean a whole lot when you are AP -2. Yeah, with WSP you can get to AP -3 but since every army in existance seems to have AoC now it just doesn't work out. A full squad of 10 Plaguebearers gets 21 attacks, hitting on 4's....Fishing for 6's is the only damage they will probably do anyway. If you back them up with a Poxbringer and a Plague Banner you are looking at 3-4 AP -3 D3 attacks, which is decent but it is costing the CP, the character and it is melee.

    Beast are probably your next best bet, but you are paying essentially 80 points for an average of 2 MW each fight phase...which you may as well just take a Poxbringer and smite at that point.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/27 08:45:54


    Post by: tneva82


     Valkyrie wrote:
    I was unpacking my 40k stuff in my new flat and came across my Tzeench stuff, which I've never actually used in a game before. Would be good to finally give them a go but I'm pretty lost when it comes to working out how to actually run a psychic-heavy force, as one failed test seems to screw up most tactics from what I've seen.


    One failed test and it's just couple mortals. Annoying but not disastorous and you have CP reroll. Daemons are light on stratagems so generally I use all on rerolls anyway.

    If you can find flamers(super hard to find though) them doubling their numbers at the expense of some pink's/blues/screamers to taste would up the power big time. Not going to net you much friends though so depending on how much people around you play net lists might find hard to get game with that many though.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/27 11:15:15


    Post by: Valkyrie


    tneva82 wrote:
     Valkyrie wrote:
    I was unpacking my 40k stuff in my new flat and came across my Tzeench stuff, which I've never actually used in a game before. Would be good to finally give them a go but I'm pretty lost when it comes to working out how to actually run a psychic-heavy force, as one failed test seems to screw up most tactics from what I've seen.


    One failed test and it's just couple mortals. Annoying but not disastorous and you have CP reroll. Daemons are light on stratagems so generally I use all on rerolls anyway.

    If you can find flamers(super hard to find though) them doubling their numbers at the expense of some pink's/blues/screamers to taste would up the power big time. Not going to net you much friends though so depending on how much people around you play net lists might find hard to get game with that many though.


    I do have 9 Flamers, what exactly is their tactic though? They put out a load of shots, but unless you use the Strat to give them all 9 shots their firepower does seem a little limp-wristed in my eyes, compared to their apparent reputation.

    I do admit I have just bought the Combat Patrol box as an early birthday present so with an old set of Bloodletters I found I would have this in addition:

    - Khorne Herald
    - 30x Bloodletters
    - 10x Flesh Hounds
    - 3x Bloodcrushers

    Should flesh out(!) the Tzeench stuff a bit with a good bit of melee power.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/27 11:41:35


    Post by: WisdomLS


     Valkyrie wrote:


    I do have 9 Flamers, what exactly is their tactic though? They put out a load of shots, but unless you use the Strat to give them all 9 shots their firepower does seem a little limp-wristed in my eyes, compared to their apparent reputation.



    Shoot stuff, kill stuff.

    Each one puts out an average of 7x S5, AP-2 hits, very few things in the game can ignore that kind of weight of decent attacks. They just flat remove alot of the decent meta units that you'll find doing well at the moment.

    Add to that, they can deepstrike, are fast with fly and are really tough when shot at. They suffer in combat but noone wants to be overwatched by them!


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/27 19:00:09


    Post by: tneva82


     Valkyrie wrote:
    tneva82 wrote:
     Valkyrie wrote:
    I was unpacking my 40k stuff in my new flat and came across my Tzeench stuff, which I've never actually used in a game before. Would be good to finally give them a go but I'm pretty lost when it comes to working out how to actually run a psychic-heavy force, as one failed test seems to screw up most tactics from what I've seen.


    One failed test and it's just couple mortals. Annoying but not disastorous and you have CP reroll. Daemons are light on stratagems so generally I use all on rerolls anyway.

    If you can find flamers(super hard to find though) them doubling their numbers at the expense of some pink's/blues/screamers to taste would up the power big time. Not going to net you much friends though so depending on how much people around you play net lists might find hard to get game with that many though.


    I do have 9 Flamers, what exactly is their tactic though? They put out a load of shots, but unless you use the Strat to give them all 9 shots their firepower does seem a little limp-wristed in my eyes, compared to their apparent reputation.

    I do admit I have just bought the Combat Patrol box as an early birthday present so with an old set of Bloodletters I found I would have this in addition:

    - Khorne Herald
    - 30x Bloodletters
    - 10x Flesh Hounds
    - 3x Bloodcrushers

    Should flesh out(!) the Tzeench stuff a bit with a good bit of melee power.


    Add 9 more.

    And their firepower is just insane. I faced 15 flamers. Delete skarbrand, 10 bloodletters and 3 flamers in a turn. If I charge unit I get deleted. Not much can survive 38 S5/S6 -2 automatic hit. One unit with +1 to wound for added fun. Shooting at 3++++ W3 guys is inefficient and charging will get you hit by that 38 automatic hits again.

    They are totally busted. Name unit that has better firepower than 38 S5 -2 automatic hits for 150 pts? Hard to find one.

    Only army I have faced that didn't worry about THREE of them was 8 chaos knights, abbadon and 15 flamers...(plus tzeentch herald). Hard to get worried when you have 15 of your own


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/27 19:25:38


    Post by: p5freak


    You charge flamers from where they can't see you. No LOS, no overwatch.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/28 10:46:48


    Post by: JakeSiren


    tneva82 wrote:
    Spoiler:
     Valkyrie wrote:
    tneva82 wrote:
     Valkyrie wrote:
    I was unpacking my 40k stuff in my new flat and came across my Tzeench stuff, which I've never actually used in a game before. Would be good to finally give them a go but I'm pretty lost when it comes to working out how to actually run a psychic-heavy force, as one failed test seems to screw up most tactics from what I've seen.


    One failed test and it's just couple mortals. Annoying but not disastorous and you have CP reroll. Daemons are light on stratagems so generally I use all on rerolls anyway.

    If you can find flamers(super hard to find though) them doubling their numbers at the expense of some pink's/blues/screamers to taste would up the power big time. Not going to net you much friends though so depending on how much people around you play net lists might find hard to get game with that many though.


    I do have 9 Flamers, what exactly is their tactic though? They put out a load of shots, but unless you use the Strat to give them all 9 shots their firepower does seem a little limp-wristed in my eyes, compared to their apparent reputation.

    I do admit I have just bought the Combat Patrol box as an early birthday present so with an old set of Bloodletters I found I would have this in addition:

    - Khorne Herald
    - 30x Bloodletters
    - 10x Flesh Hounds
    - 3x Bloodcrushers

    Should flesh out(!) the Tzeench stuff a bit with a good bit of melee power.


    Add 9 more.

    And their firepower is just insane. I faced 15 flamers. Delete skarbrand, 10 bloodletters and 3 flamers in a turn. If I charge unit I get deleted. Not much can survive 38 S5/S6 -2 automatic hit. One unit with +1 to wound for added fun. Shooting at 3++++ W3 guys is inefficient and charging will get you hit by that 38 automatic hits again.

    They are totally busted. Name unit that has better firepower than 38 S5 -2 automatic hits for 150 pts? Hard to find one.

    Only army I have faced that didn't worry about THREE of them was 8 chaos knights, abbadon and 15 flamers...(plus tzeentch herald). Hard to get worried when you have 15 of your own
    That's a fair call, there's not much with similar fire power for that points level. I do agree with the sentiment that 25ppm is too little. That said, it's not difficult to kill the flamers (even on planet bowling ball) - you just need to eat up overwatch with a disposable unit then throw in your capable melee unit. Alternatively making a charge against a different nearby unit then piling into the Flamers seriously cripples them.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/28 12:16:32


    Post by: Twilight Pathways


    I think Tzeentch has a strat or power to just yeet them out of combat in their turn though, so they can still shoot


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/28 12:27:07


    Post by: JakeSiren


    The Warp Portal strat is for Tzeentch Characters. The psychic power you are thinking of is Shrouded Step, but that's from the Noctic Discipline (Be'lakor), not the Pandaemoniac Discipline (Tzeentch).


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/28 14:22:24


    Post by: Niiai


    artific3r wrote:
    Art of War did a unit tier list today and straight up said flamers were the best unit in the game. And it’s not close.


    That usually means a point increase is somewhere in the future.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/29 00:40:33


    Post by: artific3r


    It's really going to suck when they nerf flamers without buffing anything else.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/29 11:10:24


    Post by: Ecdain


    artific3r wrote:
    It's really going to suck when they nerf flamers without buffing anything else.


    Expected nerf is a point increase to 30-32 pts each, would be fine and still let us function just the same almost using 2 squads of 5 for 300-320 instead or 3 for 375, this wouldn't be too big a hut I think l, more than than that becomes an issue though


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/29 14:19:45


    Post by: VladimirHerzog


     p5freak wrote:
    You charge flamers from where they can't see you. No LOS, no overwatch.


    as if a good player would let you have such a charge. put your flamers in a ruin, they see everything around them


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Ecdain wrote:
    artific3r wrote:
    It's really going to suck when they nerf flamers without buffing anything else.


    Expected nerf is a point increase to 30-32 pts each, would be fine and still let us function just the same almost using 2 squads of 5 for 300-320 instead or 3 for 375, this wouldn't be too big a hut I think l, more than than that becomes an issue though


    yeah but if they nerf flamers, they HAVE to drop prices somewhere else (cough cough, troops). Without flamers, LoC and BT, our codex kinda does nothing


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/29 16:10:52


    Post by: WindstormSCR


     VladimirHerzog wrote:

    yeah but if they nerf flamers, they HAVE to drop prices somewhere else (cough cough, troops). Without flamers, LoC and BT, our codex kinda does nothing


    honestly I'd love a troops point drop anyway, because lack of inexpensive backline units that can do actions/secure objectives *really* hurts.

    it's half the reason I'm tinkering with using the Belakor AoR for some CSM/Cultists


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/29 19:34:02


    Post by: Ecdain


     VladimirHerzog wrote:
     p5freak wrote:
    You charge flamers from where they can't see you. No LOS, no overwatch.


    as if a good player would let you have such a charge. put your flamers in a ruin, they see everything around them


    Automatically Appended Next Post:
    Ecdain wrote:
    artific3r wrote:
    It's really going to suck when they nerf flamers without buffing anything else.


    Expected nerf is a point increase to 30-32 pts each, would be fine and still let us function just the same almost using 2 squads of 5 for 300-320 instead or 3 for 375, this wouldn't be too big a hut I think l, more than than that becomes an issue though


    yeah but if they nerf flamers, they HAVE to drop prices somewhere else (cough cough, troops). Without flamers, LoC and BT, our codex kinda does nothing


    I actually think most of our troops are in a good spot with the only real exception is plaguebearers(don't like how much h support they need). And honestly an 11/12 point bloodletter would be too good for the damage and utility it brings, 13 is fine for them or you risk spamming enough to bring down 2 units/turn to just keep locking things in combat on a 4+ and Never letting the opponent move. That's fine in a vacuum but it hurts the overall gamestate and leads to some really not fun playstyles(imo). I could see daemonettes losing a point to compete with bloodletter as a melee troop option. Pinks should definitely not be cheaper as they are already abysmal to shoot at and split for free.

    Imma leave plaugebearees out of this as i just don't like nurgle this book in general.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/29 20:22:15


    Post by: EightFoldPath


    They've said in a few recent design articles that they don't care about internal balance, so Flamers might only go up if Daemons (and TS/CSM) are winning too much as a whole.

    They might ignore this because Flamers are so good they stand out to everyone.

    But, at this rate a Flamer drop might mean they need to buff other Daemon units, and TS units, and CSM units, because they might all be using Flamers as a crutch by December/January.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/30 06:47:14


    Post by: p5freak


    Ecdain wrote:

    I actually think most of our troops are in a good spot with the only real exception is plaguebearers(don't like how much h support they need). And honestly an 11/12 point bloodletter would be too good for the damage and utility it brings, 13 is fine for them or you risk spamming enough to bring down 2 units/turn to just keep locking things in combat on a 4+ and Never letting the opponent move. That's fine in a vacuum but it hurts the overall gamestate and leads to some really not fun playstyles(imo). I could see daemonettes losing a point to compete with bloodletter as a melee troop option. Pinks should definitely not be cheaper as they are already abysmal to shoot at and split for free.

    Imma leave plaugebearees out of this as i just don't like nurgle this book in general.


    Every troop choice is overpriced by 10-30 pts. Paying at least 120 pts. for ten T3 W1 to get obsec and be able to do actions is insane. There are other troop choices for 50-80 pts. which have obsec and can do actions.
    When your opponent shoots pinks he does something wrong, good for you. You dont shoot them, you kill them in melee. A moderately good melee unit can wipe out a unit of pinks in one fight phase.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/30 09:24:04


    Post by: Ecdain


     p5freak wrote:
    Ecdain wrote:

    I actually think most of our troops are in a good spot with the only real exception is plaguebearers(don't like how much h support they need). And honestly an 11/12 point bloodletter would be too good for the damage and utility it brings, 13 is fine for them or you risk spamming enough to bring down 2 units/turn to just keep locking things in combat on a 4+ and Never letting the opponent move. That's fine in a vacuum but it hurts the overall gamestate and leads to some really not fun playstyles(imo). I could see daemonettes losing a point to compete with bloodletter as a melee troop option. Pinks should definitely not be cheaper as they are already abysmal to shoot at and split for free.

    Imma leave plaugebearees out of this as i just don't like nurgle this book in general.


    Every troop choice is overpriced by 10-30 pts. Paying at least 120 pts. for ten T3 W1 to get obsec and be able to do actions is insane. There are other troop choices for 50-80 pts. which have obsec and can do actions.
    When your opponent shoots pinks he does something wrong, good for you. You dont shoot them, you kill them in melee. A moderately good melee unit can wipe out a unit of pinks in one fight phase.


    Why are you letting melee units near pinks? Also, don't forget we are paying for an unchangeable save in any scenario. That should definitely not be free or even super cheap, remember brimstone spam in 8th? Yes 1 wound, but that save makes a world of difference. If you trying to get a unit of 10 dudes that all have a 4++ that can't be changed at all, that squad needs to at LEAST cost 100, and even then that's pretty cheap. Than you add in the ability to manifest anywhere, that definitely shouldn't be free, especially with how much better it is than regulardeepstrike. I have yet to fail a charge put of deepstrike in my dozen+ games with current list, you realize how nuts that reliability is? AND you can lock them in combat using WS. Please tell me you aren't thinking the insane utility that our unchangeable saves and manifesting anywhere should be free? We can't look at just the stat line, what they DO on the table is Important.

    On a different note, what actions are you so desperate to be taking? Raise the banners? Admittedly this secondary isn't ideal for us as pinks/bearers are our only static troop to do that but why are you taking a secondary that isn't great? Reality rebels, nourished by terror, and then either warp ritual/interrogation(depending on oppnent) have all never gotten me less than 10 by the end of game. We aren't a horde army anymore, banners should be hard anyway.

    Do I wish some demons were cheaper? Of course I do. Do they NEED it? No not really, 2 squads of 5 flamers at 30ish points will cost the same as 3 squads of 4 do now and will perform essentially the same role.

    Now, I do agree that a lot of our stuff is slightly too expensive, but troops aren't really one of them. Fleshhounds losing a point to be 90 for 5 I think would be good, soul grinder brought down to 180, I think Screamers should raise to 35 pts a model and hit on 3s instead, daemonettes I kind of want to see at 110 instead just to give more incentive to pick them instead of auto picking letters for the lock in combat and extra fight phase movemenet.

    Pinks are interesting for me cause 150 IS high for a basic troops but running only one to screen DS and hold home obj is great, especially averaging 20-25 wounds before dying(If they somehow got in my backing to threaten the charge on pinks I put a squad of flamers between pinks and enemy unit so they have to charge flamers first and get overwatched.

    As a final note, I actually think people are stuck in the horde/monster mash mindset of smash them as hard into the paint as you can and mop up objectives later too much for our codex atm. We are a passive/stall playstyle imo, our tools are near perfectly designed to take the part of the map we want and just not let you on it, we don't have the numbers or the threat saturation for constant aggressions and would leave too many gaps for opponent to take advantage of. Ours is a uniquely frustrating playstyle that grinds people down.

    Obviously these are just my opinions but it's what I been thinking playing nothing but demons and loving this edition a lot


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/30 10:06:18


    Post by: JakeSiren


    To be fair, you can't control every situation and a savvy opponent will get the Pinks into combat. Pink shooting isn't threatening enough to necessarily prioritise them for ranged attacks, so an opponent leaving them alone until they are in range for close combat is not unreasonable. In terms of the unchangeable save, it is largely functional to army-wide invulnerable that we had previously - we just get to ignore the limited ignores invulnerable attacks.

    For Horrors specifically, we now have manifestation and splitting included in the cost. The save has been improved, but we have less bodies to absorb shooting. I played a game today where my Pink Horrors didn't even get a chance to split from the enemies shooting attacks (A Guard Company Command Tank with Punisher). If you are playing Pinks as back-line units, then manifestation means nothing. Their shooting is not particularly effective, and given their poor save in close combat I wouldn't want to risk them manifesting into the front lines. It's OK to take one or two units of Pinks, but you are giving up a considerable opportunity cost in more effective units.


    Regarding the idea of "We are a passive/stall playstyle", that basically says to me that we are not competitive in the scene. I tried playing Nurgle lists that basically held the board, and it did that well. The problem is that we never got past turn 3 before time was up. Not because of slow playing, but because the opponent had considerably more things to do T2 and T3 then if we both were losing a quarter+ of our army each turn. Perhaps it's less of a problem with chess clocks, but they aren't used in my part of the world.

    I rather see the Daemon playstyle as a hammer and anvil. You have your heavy hitters and durable units that tie up the enemy (BT, LoC, Be'lakor), and the supporting cast that hold fast and weather any attention that gets directed their way.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/30 10:11:06


    Post by: p5freak


    Ecdain wrote:

    Why are you letting melee units near pinks?


    What are you using to screen pinks against enemy units ?

    Ecdain wrote:

    On a different note, what actions are you so desperate to be taking? Raise the banners? Admittedly this secondary isn't ideal for us as pinks/bearers are our only static troop to do that but why are you taking a secondary that isn't great? Reality rebels, nourished by terror, and then either warp ritual/interrogation(depending on oppnent) have all never gotten me less than 10 by the end of game. We aren't a horde army anymore, banners should be hard anyway.


    Looks like you dont play against Tyranids, Necrons, (C)SM, Custodes. Otherwise you wouldnt pick nourished by terror. Warp Ritual/Psychic Interrogation is not fun against an opponent who can spend 1CP and deny on 4+. Banners is something the opponent cannot deny, unless he captures that marker.

    Ecdain wrote:

    Now, I do agree that a lot of our stuff is slightly too expensive, but troops aren't really one of them. Fleshhounds losing a point to be 90 for 5 I think would be good, soul grinder brought down to 180, I think Screamers should raise to 35 pts a model and hit on 3s instead, daemonettes I kind of want to see at 110 instead just to give more incentive to pick them instead of auto picking letters for the lock in combat and extra fight phase movemenet.


    Troops are overpriced.

    Ecdain wrote:

    Pinks are interesting for me cause 150 IS high for a basic troops but running only one to screen DS and hold home obj is great, especially averaging 20-25 wounds before dying(If they somehow got in my backing to threaten the charge on pinks I put a squad of flamers between pinks and enemy unit so they have to charge flamers first and get overwatched.


    You screen against DS with a single unit of pinks ? How do you do that ?


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/30 17:16:05


    Post by: artific3r


    EightFoldPath wrote:
    They've said in a few recent design articles that they don't care about internal balance, so Flamers might only go up if Daemons (and TS/CSM) are winning too much as a whole.

    They might ignore this because Flamers are so good they stand out to everyone.

    But, at this rate a Flamer drop might mean they need to buff other Daemon units, and TS units, and CSM units, because they might all be using Flamers as a crutch by December/January.


    Kansas City Open happened this weekend and every chaos list is running 3x5 flamers. What's likely to happen when GW reviews their data:

    Flamers in every list? Smack 'em with the nerf bat.
    Daemons with near perfect external balance, sitting at just over 50% winrate? Looks good, no changes.





    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/31 14:02:21


    Post by: VladimirHerzog


    Ecdain wrote:


    Now, I do agree that a lot of our stuff is slightly too expensive, but troops aren't really one of them. Fleshhounds losing a point to be 90 for 5 I think would be good, soul grinder brought down to 180, I think Screamers should raise to 35 pts a model and hit on 3s instead, daemonettes I kind of want to see at 110 instead just to give more incentive to pick them instead of auto picking letters for the lock in combat and extra fight phase movemenet.


    wait, you're saying troops are fine but fleshhounds/soulgrinders need a pts reduction?
    and screamers should already be WS3 with their current pts cost lol.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/31 16:42:01


    Post by: eternalxfl


    Looking over some Khorne Daemon options and considering the Skull Altar currently.. Is the SA able to be used with Deep Strike? Or am I stuck with being forced to start the game with it deployed in my deployment zone?


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/31 17:24:41


    Post by: p5freak


    You can deepstrike the altar. But as it is a fortification you cannot set it up within 3" of any other terrain feature that is not part of its own datasheet.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/10/31 17:46:02


    Post by: eternalxfl


    * edited - disregard, duplicate post *


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/11/01 03:47:26


    Post by: JakeSiren


    eternalxfl wrote:
    Looking over some Khorne Daemon options and considering the Skull Altar currently.. Is the SA able to be used with Deep Strike? Or am I stuck with being forced to start the game with it deployed in my deployment zone?
    As others have mentioned, you can put the Skull Altar into the warp for manifestation. The Skull Altar is quite useful for its Witchbane and Ritual Slaughter abilities. The Warp Locus on it is largely irrelevant - you are looking at bringing it down T2 and bringing other units down T3. You can get a net -3ld if you have the Aspect of Death War Lord Trait and Primeval Terror warp storm effect which reduces most units leadership to 6 or lower.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/11/02 14:56:15


    Post by: Mad_Proctologist


    where are you guys even getting flamers? They're sold out everywhere I look.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/11/02 15:59:25


    Post by: p5freak


    3d printing, or you need to get lucky at buying second hand. I recently bought 3 flamers still on sprue, without box. I now have 12, and thats all i need. Going with 18 is insane, no one would want to play against me anymore.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/11/02 17:39:59


    Post by: undertow


    Mad_Proctologist wrote:
    where are you guys even getting flamers? They're sold out everywhere I look.

    Some of us have 27 Flamers from the last time they were good.

    In late 5th edition, when we had Eternal Warrior on everything, Flamers were 1W, 32pt models. GW released a new kit (the current one) and did a White Dwarf update that dropped the price to 23pts and gave them a wound. That was when they just wounded anything on a 4+ and ignored armor and cover saves. I immediately started running three squads of 9.

    They weren't quite as good in 6th and 7th ed, when the Flying Circus was king, and I didn't play Daemons in 8th. But those Flamers were sitting in a box in my garage the whole time waiting for their time to come again.


    Legiones Daemonica Tactica - 9th Edition  @ 2022/11/03 19:13:42


    Post by: Ecdain


    Mad_Proctologist wrote:
    where are you guys even getting flamers? They're sold out everywhere I look.


    I just happen to have 12 lying around from 4 of the start collecting tzeentch boxes I bought a couple years back. I like 3 squads of 4 anyway so worked out for me