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Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/03 20:10:02


Post by: Amishprn86


From being Squated to a new full army, come here to discuss tactics and general army details for Leagues of Votann!

Useful Warhammer Community Hype links.
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/07/28/lore-of-the-votann-who-are-the-guilds/
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/09/01/nova-open-reveal-the-leagues-of-votann-unveiled/
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/08/31/new-leagues-of-votann-rules-debut-in-todays-must-see-battle-report/
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/08/22/drop-the-wrench-and-pick-up-the-cannon-the-brokhyr-thunderkyn-are-marching-to-war/
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/08/15/lead-your-kinhost-from-the-front-with-the-skill-determination-and-giant-fist-of-a-leagues-of-votann-kahl/
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/08/11/no-wheels-are-better-than-three-how-leagues-of-votann-trikes-were-reimagined-and-redesigned/
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/08/01/the-leagues-of-votann-let-loose-the-augmented-fury-of-the-cthonian-berserks/
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/07/18/put-pedal-to-the-metal-aboard-the-rugged-leagues-of-votann-sagitaur-atv/


Automatically Appended Next Post:
First thing I will talk about is first impression from reading what I have seen, the BatRep, rumors/leaks, and some players I know that are play testing on TTS.

Overall it seems to be more of a Rock, Paper, Scissor army, a bit polarizing as they can be easily countered but at the same time depending on your list just wreck you. While they are very tough with defensive rules, over all the army has a low wound count. Taking 9-12 bikes, 60 troops, some elites, the Heavy Tank (Land Fortress), and the characters, you are looking at around 120-130 total wounds with most of them being 1w models and most of them on a 4+sv. Compare to say a normal DE army with 160-170 wounds with 60-70 of those having a FnP save. Yes they will be getting no re-roll wounds against them, and AoC, some units with an Invul, but on 1 wound models it really is more squishy than you would think.

Some counters to them are Speed (Quins, DE, CWE, Daemons), MW's (anything that can deal MWs) and Psychic heavy armies (Tsons, GKs, CWE, Daemons, Nids), also just large trash, like Guardsmen and Gants. I think Nids, CWE, and Daemons are a good example of hard counters.

But who are they good against? Elite armies for sure and armies that rely on toughness. Votann are kings at hurting tough things and if they are elite even better, Knights, Custodes, Tau, are all examples of armies they can really ruin. With ignore toughness for 1/2 the shots, ingoing Invuls, and it makes putting Judgement tokens on much easier.

Lastly, their Secondaries from leaks (my be wrong) seem pretty weak, they might struggle with secondaries pretty badly, I feel they will be taking 2 and 3 non faction Secondaries 90% the time.

Because of all of that, I feel they will be polarizing base on who plays them, you'll have some people completely hate them and others see them as a easy and fun game for their army.



Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/03 21:19:31


Post by: Niiai


I was a it excited for them. But I play SW. And they seem to share some anesthetics with SW, but also game mechanics.

One units can fight in death, heoric interween and they re-roll their charges. Sounds like Wulfen.

One armour gives fight last. Much like SW.

Both armies have a troop choise that is OK, but mostly just a detachment tax. Votan only has the one datasheet.

Further they have a lot of bolters, just better bolters. Their leaders also have a lot of buffs, much like SM characters.

They remind me of a different version of SM, SW more spesific. That beeing said the bikes with pregame moves are a bit like GSC, and something SW do not have. Further on the big cannon on their big car makes a good impression of the Tau rail gun. They have Terminators. I am unsure what their long ranged unit compares too.

Further they have the grudge tokens, that is very interesting.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/03 21:29:02


Post by: Amishprn86


Some first see list ideas

Hearthkyn Warriors spam

The idea is 90-100+ of their Troops, Medipacks, Magna, HYLast, and just have them all over. There are 2 ways to play this 1 is double ObSec body count and you get a free re-roll hit or wound per unit, you will just flood the objectives and win on points. The other is more tanky with +1T, having T5 troops and T6 elites/Bikes is going to really hurt a lot of armies effectively making a lot of attacks -1 wound.

Beserk rush!
3x10 units of Beserks and 3 Land Fortress, then the last points are 3 troops and 2 HQ's.
Option 2, 2x10 Beserks and 2x2 Sagitaurs, this splits your units and gives you a lot of speed with Melee punch.

The goal is to rush, charge, kill, get back into combat and fight on death. Try to multi charge if you can. The more you get into combat the more you kill. They basically fight twice with 4 attacks each as a 2D power sword or sweep (anti-horde) for 8 attack each with -3ap.

Biker Storm
3x6 Bikes, with 2 HYLas each and a Comms (gives them a 24" range to get their Kahl re-rolls aura, for 5pts its a steal), this comes out to 615pts, enough to fill out the rest of your army.

These bikes get a Pre-game move/deploy up to 12" (outside of 9" of enemy units), has ObSeC as well. Each unit at 24'' range gets 36 shots, at 12" it adds 12 more shots, all shots Str 5, 6, and 7, with AP and some at 2D. With a Kahl giving you a token, and ways to put a 2nd token on you are shooting at close range 48 shots with 19 hits auto wounds after re-rolls, and you are still getting another 20 hits through too.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/03 21:49:41


Post by: Scactha


Great with a dedicated thread!

First comment, disagree on Secondary Prospects of Wealth. Pioneers with Scanners give 3 VP for touching an Objective to eot with 1/3 of being 6VP (supposing you hold it end of game). That is good.

EDIT: corrected by more experienced players. Rather the three other are ok. Reasons:
Ancestors is points for what you are doing anyway and a 15 with care on JT placement and investment into extra JTs/turn (searchlight, GTL, etc.).
Grudge Match Similar to above. Get points for what you want to do anyway. 10+
Lay Claim Good vs fast armies than expect to be tabled anyway.

Second is that Grudges aka Judgement Tokens skew the math which is new and hard to assess. E.g. 20 Bolter Troops normally hit MEQ for 40 x 2/3 x 1/2 ~= 13 wounds before saves, but with 3 tokens it´s 40 x 0.5 = 20. 50% more wounds is quite the roi. Math heads out there will optimize this I reckon. Tokens come partly for free and partly under your control. How good is that? Remains to be seen.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/03 22:10:02


Post by: Amishprn86


 Scactha wrote:
Great with a dedicated thread!

First comment, disagree on Secondary Prospects of Wealth. Pioneers with Scanners give 3 VP for touching an Objective to eot with 1/3 of being 6VP (supposing you hold it end of game). That is good.

Second is that Grudges aka Judgement Tokens skew the math which is new and hard to assess. E.g. 20 Bolter Troops normally hit MEQ for 40 x 2/3 x 1/2 ~= 13 wounds before saves, but with 3 tokens it´s 40 x 0.5 = 20. 50% more wounds is quite the roi. Math heads out there will optimize this I reckon. Tokens come partly for free and partly under your control. How good is that? Remains to be seen.


The Tokens does change the math for sure, especially when you get to higher and lower toughness. Its better on higher toughness and basically is 1/2 as effective against lower toughness.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/04 10:55:26


Post by: Spreelock


Now, as the full codex has leaked, they seem very strong faction. The main downside seems to be mobility and psychic defence. Also, they might struggle in fight phase without dedicated melee units.

I've also built couple of lists as initial start;

1000pts list
Spoiler:

Leagues of votann patrol (greater thurian league)
-hq- kahl 70 (warlord: pragmatic wisdom)
-hq- grimnyr 80 (relic; murmuring stave, powers; interface echo, fortify, null vortex)
-troop- hearthkyn warriors (10, magnarail rifle, hylas autorifle, plasma axe, medipack, comms) 150
-troop- hearthkyn warriors (10, magnarail rifle, hylas autorifle, plasma axe, medipack, comms) 150
-elite- einhyr hearthguard (5, teleport) 175
-elite- einhyr hearthguard (5, teleport) 175
-fast- hernkyn pioneers (3, comms, searchlight) 100
-fast- hernkyn pioneers (3, comms, searchlight) 100

Total 1000


2000pts list
Spoiler:

Leagues of votann battalion (greater thurian league)
-hq- kahl (rampart crest) 80 (warlord: pragmatic wisdom)
-hq- grimnyr 80 (relic: murmuring stave, powers: interface echo, fortify, null vortex)
-troop- hearthkyn warriors (10, magnarail rifle, hylas autorifle, plasma axe, medipack, comms) 150
-troop- hearthkyn warriors (10, magnarail rifle, hylas autorifle, plasma axe, medipack, comms) 150
-troop- hearthkyn warriors (10, magnarail rifle, hylas autorifle, plasma axe, medipack, comms) 150
-elite- einhyr hearthguard (5, teleport) 175
-elite- einhyr hearthguard (5, teleport) 175
-fast- hernkyn pioneers (3, comms, searchlight) 100
-fast- hernkyn pioneers (3, comms, searchlight) 100
-fast- sagitaur (sagitaur missile) 120
-heavy- hekaton (heavy magnarail, 4x bolt cannon, matr autocannon, kin's wrath warhead) 240
-heavy- hekaton (heavy magnarail, 4x bolt cannon, matr autocannon, kin's wrath warhead) 240
-heavy- hekaton (heavy magnarail, 4x bolt cannon, matr autocannon, kin's wrath warhead) 240

Total 2000


Both lists should be able to throw 3 judgement tokens per turn, which is essential when picking secondaries (ancestors are watching).


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/04 16:14:21


Post by: Insularum


Teleport crests and Sagitaurs look like they'll go a long way in plastering over mobility. Weirdly it looks like going 2nd is going to be fine with LoV, get some judgement tokens down early before your first shooting phase.

Generic 2k list idea:
Spoiler:

Custom League (reroll a hit or wound, +1 to hit below starting size, +2 charge vs judgement token unit)
Battlion (10CP normal/2CP Nephilim games)

120 - High Kahl (WL: experienced eye, relic: flayre, bolter, rampart crest)
80 - Kahl (extra WL trait: a long list, extra relic: hearthfist, bolter, tele crest)

290 - Warriors (20, 2 rail rifles, 2 L7 missiles, comm, med, bolters)
125 - Warriors (10, HYlas, comm, med, bolters)
125 - Warriors (10, HYlas, comm, med, bolters)
120 - Warriors (10, ion blasters) - to be split deployed in Sagitaurs

230 - Hekaton (magna rail cannon)
210 - Thunderkin (6, all grav)

120 - Beserks (5, all plasma axes, mole grenade) - for jumping out of the Hekaton
360 - Hearthguard (10, plasma guns/gauntlets all round, hammer and tele crest on Hesyr)

220 - Sagitaurs (2, MATR autocannons)

Both Kahls have judgement token manipulation traits, aiming to try and get 2 units tagged with 2+ tokens on turn 1, to then teleport the Hearthguard at - shoot one then charge the other on a 7+. Looks like this can be repeated each turn until either no CP or the Hearthguard die.

Backup Kahl isn't really needed for auras (comms on the good warrior units), can teleport to challenge objectives if the Hearthguard aren't jumping around, 7+ charge onto occupied objective's.

Splitting 1 squad in Sagitaurs seems the best way to make action units or cheap ablative bodies for harvesting extra judgement tokens, they'll just ride around finding somewhere useful to be or die.

Edited for points! changed a few minor bits around to make it fit.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/04 18:50:11


Post by: Vilgeir


 Insularum wrote:
Teleport crests and Sagitaurs look like they'll go a long way in plastering over mobility. Weirdly it looks like going 2nd is going to be fine with LoV, get some judgement tokens down early before your first shooting phase.

Generic 2k list idea:
Spoiler:

Custom League (+1 Str, +1 to hit below starting size, +2 charge vs judgement token unit)
Battlion (10CP normal/2CP Nephilim games)

120 - High Kahl (WL: experienced eye, relic: flayre, bolter, rampart crest)
80 - Kahl (extra WL trait: a long list, extra relic: hearthfist, bolter, tele crest)

295 - Warriors (20, 2 rail rifles, 2 L7 missiles, comm, med, plasma sword, bolters)
135 - Warriors (10, HYlas, plasma beam, comm, med, ion blasters)
135 - Warriors (10, HYlas, plasma beam, comm, med, ion blasters)
110 - Warriors (10, ion blasters) - to be split deployed in Sagitaurs

250 - Hekaton (4 ion beams, rail cannon)
175 - Thunderkin (5, all grav)

120 - Beserks (5, all plasma axes, mole grenade) - for jumping out of the Hekaton
360 - Hearthguard (10, plasma guns/gauntlets all round, hammer and tele crest on Hesyr)

220 - Sagitaurs (2, MATR autocannons)

Both Kahls have judgement token manipulation traits, aiming to try and get 2 units tagged with 2+ tokens on turn 1, to then teleport the Hearthguard at - shoot one then charge the other on a 7+. Looks like this can be repeated each turn until either no CP or the Hearthguard die.

Backup Kahl isn't really needed for auras (comms on the good warrior units), can teleport to challenge objectives if the Hearthguard aren't jumping around, 7+ charge onto occupied objective's.

Splitting 1 squad in Sagitaurs seems the best way to make action units or cheap ablative bodies for harvesting extra judgement tokens, they'll just ride around finding somewhere useful to be or die.


Your points costs look like they're missing the ion blasters on Warriors, which are 1 ppm.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/04 19:47:17


Post by: Insularum


Thanks! moved a few minor bits around to make it fit based on not changing any boxes potentially being purchased.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/05 00:33:46


Post by: Amishprn86


I was thinking something like this so far, not sure yet, going to do some test games.

Champion
Kahl/Named
Grimnyr**
x10 troops, HYLas, Magna, Medi
x10 troops, HYLas, Magna, Medi
x10 troops, HYLas, Magna, Medi
x10 troops, HYLas, Magna, Medi
Beserks x10 with a Fortress
2x5 Hearthguards with crests
3x3 Bikes with HYLast

Grimnyr: I dont know if I really want this TBH, I like him but it takes away Abhor of the Witch.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/05 01:29:48


Post by: DeadliestIdiot


 Amishprn86 wrote:
I was thinking something like this so far, not sure yet, going to do some test games.

Champion
Kahl/Named
Grimnyr**
x10 troops, HYLas, Magna, Medi
x10 troops, HYLas, Magna, Medi
x10 troops, HYLas, Magna, Medi
x10 troops, HYLas, Magna, Medi
Beserks x10 with a Fortress
2x5 Hearthguards with crests
3x3 Bikes with HYLast

Grimnyr: I dont know if I really want this TBH, I like him but it takes away Abhor of the Witch.


On the other hand, having psykers might help a bit with any mortal wound spam (at least of the psychic variety). I suppose it comes down to whether the other secondaries are sufficient to give up abhor the witch.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/05 02:16:13


Post by: Amishprn86


3 of the 4 secondaries are pretty bad IMO for Votann, so I dont want to rely on them, and if I am fighting casting power armies I need to kill those casters otherwise i'll most likely lose anyways. That is my thought at least. I am will to suicide the Champion and a unit of Beserks to kill 2 units if that means no more MWs from them. But you know variables and such.

I also thinking that the Fortress can carry 2 units, so 2x5 Beserks would be better most likely?


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/05 17:50:48


Post by: terennNash


FWIW lets not forget the character assassinating monster that is the Forge Master.

110pts and A Long List WLT he can ignore look out sir and reliably pulp any MEQ character if they have a judgment token w/ 6 MW, 9 if you get lucky. spend 1 more CP for the relic gun for him to make it a beamer and do the same to any units between the Forge Master and the soon to be dead HQ.

couldnt get a judgment token on your target? 1cp for Personal Grudge to make them have 3.



Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/05 19:36:46


Post by: Vilgeir


I've been spectating a ton of practice games over this long weekend and my initial impressions are that they are offensively strong but slow, are impacted a lot by their short range, and more crucially they don’t score well. If your opponent doesn't use the available terrain to counter them well then you could be cruising to a win by mostly tabling the opponent by turn 3. The Leagues certainly look great but are nowhere near pre-nerf nids or today's harlequins. Big weakness to mortal wounds too, and a relatively low wound count for infantry on the table, so yes - with such low scoring Secondaries you have to make a really tough call between adding a Grim for psychic defense or taking Abhor the Witch.

I will absolutely need more time to come to grips with them just for familiarity's sake alone, but what I’m hearing and seeing from some top players in the TTS meta is that the judgment tokens are just a bonus and the hidden strength of the army is the beam weapons. One hit roll that can hit multiple enemy units at decent AP and D is really strong in their matches. I'm interested to see where they settle. The potential upside is very high, but there is positioning counterplay such that I'm hesitant to make a call on them for my lists without seeing more robust data, at least more than a bunch of weekend games using a leaked Codex.

One list that’s been fun to watch is 30 Beserks with mauls, 3 land fortresses with all beams, some minimum bikes for scoring, the troop tax and HQs all run as Ymyr.

The beam weapons basically dice apart anything in the open since the current interpretation is that they can hit many units with a single hit roll and Ymyr has a strat for MW on successful hits as well, though there's some discussion about whether that applies to the incidental attacks or just the targeted unit. That will likely see an FAQ to be honest. The fortresses are very difficult to kill which keeps those juicy Beserks alive until they need to pop out and mush something with a bucket of attacks at S10 -3 3D. The beam part honestly surprised me how effective it can be, but part of that could just be lack of familiarity from the opponent and there's some discussion around how it works with the stratagem.

I'm not at all surprised to see Beserks doing work. They have many of the most dangerous parts of Repentia's rules after all and I think we'll see Kronus grow in popularity, especially if you use many Sagitaurs to split max units into smaller deadly missiles that can do work and sacrifice themselves to rack up more Judgment bonuses on trades


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/05 20:49:52


Post by: Amishprn86


Yep, I felt the same. Some major things to consider with their weaknesses

1) Low wound and model count
2) Short range and hard to adjust to and counter movements
3) Secondaries are harder than all A tier armies
4) MWs and spell protection are almost zero
5) Range is Mid and short at times

I've seen talk of Beam weapon spam too, but I really need to see their list, maybe +2" move on vehicles/Acc and longer range weapons to make sure you are shooting at what, when, and where you need? IDk I am still not sold of Beam spam.

But I do like the idea of Beserk Sagitaur, 2x10 and 1x2 Sags. Get some Beams and melee.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/06 02:57:29


Post by: Vilgeir


 Amishprn86 wrote:
Yep, I felt the same. Some major things to consider with their weaknesses

1) Low wound and model count
2) Short range and hard to adjust to and counter movements
3) Secondaries are harder than all A tier armies
4) MWs and spell protection are almost zero
5) Range is Mid and short at times

I've seen talk of Beam weapon spam too, but I really need to see their list, maybe +2" move on vehicles/Acc and longer range weapons to make sure you are shooting at what, when, and where you need? IDk I am still not sold of Beam spam.

But I do like the idea of Beserk Sagitaur, 2x10 and 1x2 Sags. Get some Beams and melee.


I'm also not sold on beam spam. It looks like something that is really good on the surface until you consider how easy it might be to limit or eliminate it as a factor just based on your own movement. Legacy of Dorn comes to mind as an example: +1 damage is always powerful, but because of the nerfs to doctrines it is so easy to shut down. I'll be magnetizing the hell out of my votann vehicles, that's for sure lol

Ymyr does seem like the right place to go for beam spam as you gain that extra range, the stratagem, and the platforms you want to go heavy with it are the ones that work best with the invuln side of their custom. But on the other hand Kronus looks like the best place for Beserk spam since they end up stacking the same types of buffs that make Repentia so damn scary.

Outside of that, I really like the Hearthguard with a teleport crest and the Warpstryke relic in Ymyr. They're rocking a 4+ invuln anyway, and now they can use the site to site transport strat once a battle for free and they deny deep strike at 12". Seems like a solid big block anvil unit to hold the middle of the board with while giving them some options for immediately threatening somewhere else at a moment's notice.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/06 03:36:04


Post by: tneva82


[quote=Amishprn86 806768 11428090 e72bdf2c79f8bc7ad8a6f3599a257cc7.jpg
3) Secondaries are harder than all A tier armies


Does codex have special exemption as current battlepack bans every codex secondary?


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/06 04:53:35


Post by: Vilgeir


tneva82 wrote:
Does codex have special exemption as current battlepack bans every codex secondary?


It does not, though I would expect any such exemption would be added to an errata update to the Nephilim GT pack anyway since it is there that the limitation is applied in the first place.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/06 08:49:30


Post by: wuestenfux


tneva82 wrote:
[quote=Amishprn86 806768 11428090 e72bdf2c79f8bc7ad8a6f3599a257cc7.jpg
3) Secondaries are harder than all A tier armies



How about the quote? Link broken.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/06 11:31:31


Post by: Amishprn86


 wuestenfux wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
[quote=Amishprn86 806768 11428090 e72bdf2c79f8bc7ad8a6f3599a257cc7.jpg
3) Secondaries are harder than all A tier armies



How about the quote? Link broken.


I am sorry but i don't understand, what is the question?


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/07 21:45:04


Post by: Niiai


What would a spam of the basic troop be? It seems their biggest weaknes is slow and short range. But i you have enough of them they will survive reaching the enemy?


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/08 00:55:21


Post by: Amishprn86


 Niiai wrote:
What would a spam of the basic troop be? It seems their biggest weaknes is slow and short range. But i you have enough of them they will survive reaching the enemy?


Honestly, IDK bc I think they are one of the weaker units in the book. But I would do something like

Ok really thinking about it to be serious as serious as you can to just be full troop spam.

So something like this

YMYR for range or Urani for Toughness

Master Kahl 140
Lord Grim 100
Warriors x10 Ion Blasters x8, HYLas, Magna-rifle, Medi = 148
Warriors x10 Ion Blasters x8, HYLas, Magna-rifle, Medi = 148
Warriors x10 Ion Blasters x8, HYLas, Magna-rifle, Medi = 148
Warriors x10 Ion Blasters x8, HYLas, Magna-rifle, Medi = 148
Warriors x10 Ion Blasters x8, HYLas, Magna-rifle, Medi = 148
Warriors x10 Ion Blasters x8, HYLas, Magna-rifle, Medi = 148
1,128

Kahl 100
Warriors x10 Ion Blasters x8, HYLas, Magna-rifle, Medi = 148
Warriors x20 Ion Blasters x16, HYLas, Magna-rifle, L7 missile, Plasma Beamer, Medi, Comms, Scanner = 296
Warriors x20 Ion Blasters x16, HYLas, Magna-rifle, L7 missile, Plasma Beamer, Medi, Comms, Scanner = 296
840

1968pts


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/08 06:29:35


Post by: Spreelock


 Niiai wrote:
What would a spam of the basic troop be? It seems their biggest weaknes is slow and short range. But i you have enough of them they will survive reaching the enemy?


I think they would struggle in fight phase, but that's actually intresting concept for kronus hegemony.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/08 07:12:15


Post by: wuestenfux


Spoiler:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
 Niiai wrote:
What would a spam of the basic troop be? It seems their biggest weaknes is slow and short range. But i you have enough of them they will survive reaching the enemy?


Honestly, IDK bc I think they are one of the weaker units in the book. But I would do something like

Ok really thinking about it to be serious as serious as you can to just be full troop spam.

So something like this

YMYR for range or Urani for Toughness

Master Kahl 140
Lord Grim 100
Warriors x10 Ion Blasters x8, HYLas, Magna-rifle, Medi = 148
Warriors x10 Ion Blasters x8, HYLas, Magna-rifle, Medi = 148
Warriors x10 Ion Blasters x8, HYLas, Magna-rifle, Medi = 148
Warriors x10 Ion Blasters x8, HYLas, Magna-rifle, Medi = 148
Warriors x10 Ion Blasters x8, HYLas, Magna-rifle, Medi = 148
Warriors x10 Ion Blasters x8, HYLas, Magna-rifle, Medi = 148
1,128

Kahl 100
Warriors x10 Ion Blasters x8, HYLas, Magna-rifle, Medi = 148
Warriors x20 Ion Blasters x16, HYLas, Magna-rifle, L7 missile, Plasma Beamer, Medi, Comms, Scanner = 296
Warriors x20 Ion Blasters x16, HYLas, Magna-rifle, L7 missile, Plasma Beamer, Medi, Comms, Scanner = 296
840

1968pts

The tactics here would be board control.
How much would this army cost?
Guess 11x 40 Euro for the Warriors and 3x 25 Euro for the HQs, makes it 500 Euro for the models.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/08 11:03:57


Post by: Amishprn86


 wuestenfux wrote:
Spoiler:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
 Niiai wrote:
What would a spam of the basic troop be? It seems their biggest weaknes is slow and short range. But i you have enough of them they will survive reaching the enemy?


Honestly, IDK bc I think they are one of the weaker units in the book. But I would do something like

Ok really thinking about it to be serious as serious as you can to just be full troop spam.

So something like this

YMYR for range or Urani for Toughness

Master Kahl 140
Lord Grim 100
Warriors x10 Ion Blasters x8, HYLas, Magna-rifle, Medi = 148
Warriors x10 Ion Blasters x8, HYLas, Magna-rifle, Medi = 148
Warriors x10 Ion Blasters x8, HYLas, Magna-rifle, Medi = 148
Warriors x10 Ion Blasters x8, HYLas, Magna-rifle, Medi = 148
Warriors x10 Ion Blasters x8, HYLas, Magna-rifle, Medi = 148
Warriors x10 Ion Blasters x8, HYLas, Magna-rifle, Medi = 148
1,128

Kahl 100
Warriors x10 Ion Blasters x8, HYLas, Magna-rifle, Medi = 148
Warriors x20 Ion Blasters x16, HYLas, Magna-rifle, L7 missile, Plasma Beamer, Medi, Comms, Scanner = 296
Warriors x20 Ion Blasters x16, HYLas, Magna-rifle, L7 missile, Plasma Beamer, Medi, Comms, Scanner = 296
840

1968pts

The tactics here would be board control.
How much would this army cost?
Guess 11x 40 Euro for the Warriors and 3x 25 Euro for the HQs, makes it 500 Euro for the models.


Doesn't seem costly tbh, I think some of the more costly things will be the 2 vehicles and the Hearthguard, I am worried the Fortress is going to be over $100 USD.

Yeah its about board control, but with slow movement, low range, and low wounds, idk if it would really be good at all.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/08 12:10:38


Post by: wuestenfux


Yeah its about board control, but with slow movement, low range, and low wounds, idk if it would really be good at all.

Depends on whether you have some ways to shift or deep-strike units.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/08 12:30:00


Post by: terennNash




Doesn't seem costly tbh, I think some of the more costly things will be the 2 vehicles and the Hearthguard, I am worried the Fortress is going to be over $100 USD.

Yeah its about board control, but with slow movement, low range, and low wounds, idk if it would really be good at all.


i imagine the fortress being over 100 easily. about as big as a repulsor executioner, and its a brand new model, and the level of detail is high meaning a more complicated mold.

ork kill rigs run 130 now, i wouldnt be surprised at all if the land tank lands at the same price point


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/08 17:56:43


Post by: Amishprn86


terennNash wrote:


Doesn't seem costly tbh, I think some of the more costly things will be the 2 vehicles and the Hearthguard, I am worried the Fortress is going to be over $100 USD.

Yeah its about board control, but with slow movement, low range, and low wounds, idk if it would really be good at all.


i imagine the fortress being over 100 easily. about as big as a repulsor executioner, and its a brand new model, and the level of detail is high meaning a more complicated mold.

ork kill rigs run 130 now, i wouldnt be surprised at all if the land tank lands at the same price point


Yeah... I was thinking 110-130 for the Fortress and 70 for the Sagitaur, Hearthguard and Beserkers most likely 50. I am guessing i'll be spending around $700 for just 4 troops, 4 HQs, 6 bikes, 10 Hearths, 10 Beserks, and 2 Fortress. Which is a sold 2200 with upgrades, but is low model count.

I have a game Friday (if it doesn't get cancelled) i'm testing (so no paper 1k games, a full proxy 2k), i'll report back then.

My list is is not trying to test everything, but a few things, so I wanted 2 of each to really get the feel for them. I'll play against next week with more HQs (Grimnyr) and more maybe Troop/Sag heavy. I really want to test 2 shield Crest Hearthguards and see how they do, I know Beserks work if you can get them anywhere

Test list

Lord Kahl
Master Forge WLT/Relic
Champion Hammer
Troops x10 HYLas, L7, Medi
Troops x10 HYLas, L7, Medi
Troops x10 Magna, Beam, Medi (in Fortress)
Bikes x3 HYLas, Comms, Searchlight
Bikes x3 HYLas, Comms, Searchlight
Hearthguard x10, Shield crest
Beserks 2x5 (in Fortress)
Fortress
Fortress
(Should be right at 2k)

Edit: Added wargear so you know.
Edit again lol: I changed 1 little thing, in the list, I dont like Ions on only 3 troops, took them off for more upgrades.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/11 21:57:45


Post by: Amishprn86


Did a fun Votann game with 2 Fortresses and what I like. Honestly, it wasn't as much damage as I thought it was going to be. The bikes really didn't do much either. The Hearthguard and Champion was great, Beserks extremely good distraction unit after they get some melee in. I did win but it was honestly close up until T4. Neck to neck T2 and T3, end of T4 the Hearthguard and Champion was just too much.

My list was the list above, against a BT player with 2 Dreads, Gladiator Valiant, Helbrecht, 20 Crusaders, some Incursors, Eliminators, BGVs, GVs, with a Chaplain.

All proxy for now

Changes I would make, no Relic on the Forge Master, 1 unit of Warriors all Ions and a Magna for MWs output (this unit is the one in the Fortress). I would need to play a couple more times to see what else I would want to change. I did like YMYR but I think GTL will be better over all, but I love the invuls on units and extra range as well as the rapid fire range for bonus AP, it really fits well for me. But I am also thinking about Kronus, seems really good with Kahl, Champ, Beserks, and Hearthguard.


[Thumb - PXL_20220910_023049253.jpg]


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/12 23:44:30


Post by: dan2026


 Amishprn86 wrote:
Did a fun Votann game with 2 Fortresses and what I like. Honestly, it wasn't as much damage as I thought it was going to be. The bikes really didn't do much either. The Hearthguard and Champion was great, Beserks extremely good distraction unit after they get some melee in. I did win but it was honestly close up until T4. Neck to neck T2 and T3, end of T4 the Hearthguard and Champion was just too much.

My list was the list above, against a BT player with 2 Dreads, Gladiator Valiant, Helbrecht, 20 Crusaders, some Incursors, Eliminators, BGVs, GVs, with a Chaplain.

All proxy for now

Changes I would make, no Relic on the Forge Master, 1 unit of Warriors all Ions and a Magna for MWs output (this unit is the one in the Fortress). I would need to play a couple more times to see what else I would want to change. I did like YMYR but I think GTL will be better over all, but I love the invuls on units and extra range as well as the rapid fire range for bonus AP, it really fits well for me. But I am also thinking about Kronus, seems really good with Kahl, Champ, Beserks, and Hearthguard.


Interesting. What guns did you run on the Hearthguard?
Plasma or Volkanite?


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/13 01:20:19


Post by: Amishprn86


 dan2026 wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
Did a fun Votann game with 2 Fortresses and what I like. Honestly, it wasn't as much damage as I thought it was going to be. The bikes really didn't do much either. The Hearthguard and Champion was great, Beserks extremely good distraction unit after they get some melee in. I did win but it was honestly close up until T4. Neck to neck T2 and T3, end of T4 the Hearthguard and Champion was just too much.

My list was the list above, against a BT player with 2 Dreads, Gladiator Valiant, Helbrecht, 20 Crusaders, some Incursors, Eliminators, BGVs, GVs, with a Chaplain.

All proxy for now

Changes I would make, no Relic on the Forge Master, 1 unit of Warriors all Ions and a Magna for MWs output (this unit is the one in the Fortress). I would need to play a couple more times to see what else I would want to change. I did like YMYR but I think GTL will be better over all, but I love the invuls on units and extra range as well as the rapid fire range for bonus AP, it really fits well for me. But I am also thinking about Kronus, seems really good with Kahl, Champ, Beserks, and Hearthguard.


Interesting. What guns did you run on the Hearthguard?
Plasma or Volkanite?


Plasma, the idea of an always supercharge plasma without the 1 to kill you seemed really good lol. But I can see why Volkanite would be good with Judgements, especially with 3 shots each (30 shots) you can easily do 15 MW's, but bc I am YMYR it didn't feel practical, if I was playing GTL then I think I would do Volkanite.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/13 05:43:01


Post by: Twilight Pathways


15 MW seems a bit unlikely, with full rerolls and fishing for 6s the average is about 9


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/13 11:11:34


Post by: wuestenfux


Do we know when the codex will come out?
The earlier the better.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/13 11:17:01


Post by: Amishprn86


Twilight Pathways wrote:
15 MW seems a bit unlikely, with full rerolls and fishing for 6s the average is about 9


LOL, yeah for sure, I was doing head math and messed it up a little, it would be more like 11 MWs, I was thinking you can get the free re-rolls and the free auto 6. 30 with re-roll all dice that nots 6's. So 5 6's, then re-roll the 25 dice for 4, then the 1 free, and some rounding numbers too. Still 10-12 MWs isn't bad.

But, man did the Plasma feel good to play though, no need to worry about 6's


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/13 16:27:30


Post by: Sikil


 Amishprn86 wrote:


[...]

Beserk rush!
[...] 2x10 Beserks and 2x2 Sagitaurs, this splits your units and gives you a lot of speed with Melee punch.

The goal is to rush, charge, kill, get back into combat and fight on death. Try to multi charge if you can. The more you get into combat the more you kill. They basically fight twice with 4 attacks each as a 2D power sword or sweep (anti-horde) for 8 attack each with -3ap.

Biker Storm
3x6 Bikes, with 2 HYLas each and a Comms (gives them a 24" range to get their Kahl re-rolls aura, for 5pts its a steal), this comes out to 615pts, enough to fill out the rest of your army.

These bikes get a Pre-game move/deploy up to 12" (outside of 9" of enemy units), has ObSeC as well. Each unit at 24'' range gets 36 shots, at 12" it adds 12 more shots, all shots Str 5, 6, and 7, with AP and some at 2D. With a Kahl giving you a token, and ways to put a 2nd token on you are shooting at close range 48 shots with 19 hits auto wounds after re-rolls, and you are still getting another 20 hits through too.



Combine the Berzerk Sag rush with the Biker Storm rush, round of with some Troops, a Buff-Kâhl and Grymkin and I have a feeling that it will be a sledgehammer that will be feared.

Love the Champion model thou... Hmmm... Maybe not use/proxy the Grymkin just yet. 😇


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/14 03:36:27


Post by: Amishprn86


 Sikil wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:


[...]

Beserk rush!
[...] 2x10 Beserks and 2x2 Sagitaurs, this splits your units and gives you a lot of speed with Melee punch.

The goal is to rush, charge, kill, get back into combat and fight on death. Try to multi charge if you can. The more you get into combat the more you kill. They basically fight twice with 4 attacks each as a 2D power sword or sweep (anti-horde) for 8 attack each with -3ap.

Biker Storm
3x6 Bikes, with 2 HYLas each and a Comms (gives them a 24" range to get their Kahl re-rolls aura, for 5pts its a steal), this comes out to 615pts, enough to fill out the rest of your army.

These bikes get a Pre-game move/deploy up to 12" (outside of 9" of enemy units), has ObSeC as well. Each unit at 24'' range gets 36 shots, at 12" it adds 12 more shots, all shots Str 5, 6, and 7, with AP and some at 2D. With a Kahl giving you a token, and ways to put a 2nd token on you are shooting at close range 48 shots with 19 hits auto wounds after re-rolls, and you are still getting another 20 hits through too.



Combine the Berzerk Sag rush with the Biker Storm rush, round of with some Troops, a Buff-Kâhl and Grymkin and I have a feeling that it will be a sledgehammer that will be feared.

Love the Champion model thou... Hmmm... Maybe not use/proxy the Grymkin just yet. 😇


The go to list right now is a mix of the 2 yes.

Here is 1 i saw i liked, its 2 Patrols

Uthar
Lord Grim
Forge Master
Warriors
Warriors
Beserks 1x5
Beserks 1x5
Beserks 1x5
Pioneers x6 (searchlight, Hylas's, Comms)
Pioneers x3 Hylas
Pioneers x3 Hylas
Hekaton
Hekaton
Hekaton

I've seen another list that was the same thing but no Grim and instead +5 more Beserks or Bikes. Also some are doing only 3x5 Beserks for more bikes too basically same as but its 3x6 Bikes and 3x5 Beserks with 3 Hekatons, Uthar, Forge Master, and 2 troops.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/14 12:57:17


Post by: EightFoldPath


I'm not sure I'd swap 2 CP for the ability to take 1 less Warrior squad and save 110 points, but I can see the idea.

Also I feel the Rollbar Searchlight and 1 CP is vital for generating a single judgement token on a target that has avoided all other tokens. Especially in combination with Uthar's special 6.

Similarly prefer a cheeky Ion Beamer on the bikes for getting the MW beam strat rolling before any of the Fortresses start firing.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/14 13:23:09


Post by: Amishprn86


EightFoldPath wrote:
I'm not sure I'd swap 2 CP for the ability to take 1 less Warrior squad and save 110 points, but I can see the idea.

Also I feel the Rollbar Searchlight and 1 CP is vital for generating a single judgement token on a target that has avoided all other tokens. Especially in combination with Uthar's special 6.

Similarly prefer a cheeky Ion Beamer on the bikes for getting the MW beam strat rolling before any of the Fortresses start firing.


I'm not going to lie, i meant to type searchlights and messed up (see my signature) will edit that lol.

Some are trying out the Ion Beams too actually. But its not worth it if you are doing Magna-rifle Hekatons, you either do al beams or no beams from what I am seeing.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/14 14:19:58


Post by: dan2026


I'm not sure what to think on Beam weapons.
They seem highly situational. And limited with not being able to hit characters etc.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/14 19:07:36


Post by: EightFoldPath


 Amishprn86 wrote:
I'm not going to lie, i meant to type searchlights and messed up (see my signature) will edit that lol.

Some are trying out the Ion Beams too actually. But its not worth it if you are doing Magna-rifle Hekatons, you either do al beams or no beams from what I am seeing.

Haha, I quite like the Scanner as well after a bit more thought about it.

I also do prefer a mix of weaponry and I don't like how going all beams will leave you with so much AP2 D2. Although the magna-rail having only AP4 is kind of disappointing, which also tells you a lot about the state of the game.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/17 03:27:19


Post by: JNAProductions


List I just made. Could use some advice on the Relics and Warlord Traits.

Also, a touch of math for fun.

Five Berserks, armed with Axes, and part of the Kronus Hegemony, bop just shy of six Plague Marines on the charge. With no Judgement Tokens.
Add on a single Token, for the bonus AP and slight boost to wounding, and that jumps to more than eight Plague Marines in one bout of fighting.
With full rerolls to-hit (from a stratagem, probably) and three Tokens, a mere five do enough to kill 13 Plague Marines, or five Deathguard Terminators.

Against a Knight, they do...
No Tokens-7.41 damage.
One Token-13.33 damage.
Three Tokens, Full Rerolls on Hit Rolls-30+ damage.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/17 23:26:07


Post by: Boosykes


Wow those berserk s look strong.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/18 01:09:36


Post by: DeadliestIdiot


A bunch of YouTube videos of channels playing small games using the Votann starter box went up today for anyone not already aware. I've encountered videos of votann vs orks, ad mech, alpha legion, eldar, and nids. I'm sure there's probably others as well.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/18 04:07:51


Post by: Sasori


Boosykes wrote:
Wow those berserk s look strong.


One of the best unit in the dexes. If you put the concussion mauls on them, they are repentia with Thunderhammers.

Which is the way I'm going to outfit mine at least. The auto-wounding and the two full reroll stratagems and the full high Khal rerolls, is more than enough to make up for the -1 to hit. We've got plenty of Volume of fire elsewhere in the army that I don't think you need the Plasma Axes, though they look way cooler.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/18 05:49:24


Post by: Amishprn86


 Sasori wrote:
Boosykes wrote:
Wow those berserk s look strong.


One of the best unit in the dexes. If you put the concussion mauls on them, they are repentia with Thunderhammers.

Which is the way I'm going to outfit mine at least. The auto-wounding and the two full reroll stratagems and the full high Khal rerolls, is more than enough to make up for the -1 to hit. We've got plenty of Volume of fire elsewhere in the army that I don't think you need the Plasma Axes, though they look way cooler.


I am going Plasma axe for a few reason;
1) Slow strength is fine with JTs
2) AP 3 is better than AP 2
3) Against -1D double the attacks is better than extra strength when we have JTs


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/18 08:36:36


Post by: Bosskelot


The thunder hammers are ap3 though.

Also Damage 3 is so important in general (because of -1 D and also lots of 3W bodies in the meta atm) and is usually very hard to really get en masse. Votaan already has plenty of ways to horde clear or kill Intercessor-tier bodies that the plasma axes don't do anything you're not already doing. Getting 15-30 Damage 3 attacks at ap3 with full re-rolls though? There is 0 contest. Hammers every time.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/18 09:32:48


Post by: EightFoldPath


They seem close in terms of playability, it would just be a case of working out what units you are killing in melee most often and choosing the appropriate weapon.

I feel like the shooting can horde clear, tank bust and eliminate elite infantry, so I'm not quite following the idea that you specifically need to deal with elites in melee.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/18 11:21:45


Post by: Niiai


 Sasori wrote:
Boosykes wrote:
Wow those berserk s look strong.


One of the best unit in the dexes. If you put the concussion mauls on them, they are repentia with Thunderhammers.

Which is the way I'm going to outfit mine at least. The auto-wounding and the two full reroll stratagems and the full high Khal rerolls, is more than enough to make up for the -1 to hit. We've got plenty of Volume of fire elsewhere in the army that I don't think you need the Plasma Axes, though they look way cooler.


Can I just get a compareson to them vs wulfen? A lot of people are down on wulfen (although I think they are good.) What is the big draw for the votan berserkers? The grudge tokens? That they can ride in transports?

It is honestly the biggets holdback for me for not jumping on the dwarf train. I already have 15 wulfen.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/18 11:55:51


Post by: Bosskelot


 Niiai wrote:
 Sasori wrote:
Boosykes wrote:
Wow those berserk s look strong.


One of the best unit in the dexes. If you put the concussion mauls on them, they are repentia with Thunderhammers.

Which is the way I'm going to outfit mine at least. The auto-wounding and the two full reroll stratagems and the full high Khal rerolls, is more than enough to make up for the -1 to hit. We've got plenty of Volume of fire elsewhere in the army that I don't think you need the Plasma Axes, though they look way cooler.


Can I just get a compareson to them vs wulfen? A lot of people are down on wulfen (although I think they are good.) What is the big draw for the votan berserkers? The grudge tokens? That they can ride in transports?

It is honestly the biggets holdback for me for not jumping on the dwarf train. I already have 15 wulfen.


Nobody is down on Wulfen. They're widely recognized as one of the best units in the SW dex.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/18 14:37:41


Post by: Niiai


Yeah you say that. But when the subject comes up in Discords, Facebook or forums there are always someboy coming down on them hard. Often comparing them to their pre-codex crazy rules. Your beef is not with me, your beef is with them. Or I suppose your beef is with me is your claim is that there are in fact not people who say that. In witch case I suppose we do have a beef, but this is not the hill I am going to merpahorically die on.

Prime directive time: Do not play a worse version of your concept army. If anybody builds a list around or with a high consentration of berserkers, what do they offer that wulfen does not do? My biggest sticking point is that wulfen are fast ish (8") and the berserkers are not.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/18 14:57:04


Post by: tneva82


Just because somebody says something doesn' mean it so. What does majorito say?


Also transport is big and wolfen lack of core hurts. Autowoundp and full reroll to hit is big


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/18 16:04:25


Post by: Niiai


The majorito is undecided.

Wulfen has speed, invulnerable save, and the super doctrine build in.

How exspensive is it for 5 berserker in a transport? I suppose it also needs to compare to five berserkers in the land fortress as well, since it is rather good.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/18 16:10:59


Post by: Amishprn86


 Bosskelot wrote:
The thunder hammers are ap3 though.

Also Damage 3 is so important in general (because of -1 D and also lots of 3W bodies in the meta atm) and is usually very hard to really get en masse. Votaan already has plenty of ways to horde clear or kill Intercessor-tier bodies that the plasma axes don't do anything you're not already doing. Getting 15-30 Damage 3 attacks at ap3 with full re-rolls though? There is 0 contest. Hammers every time.


Oh I got it mixed up with the gauntlet, my bad lol, Yeah I can understand wanting the hammers, not the Gauntlet. I was thinking the Hammer was the 1 in 5 upgrade for some reason.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Niiai wrote:
The majorito is undecided.

Wulfen has speed, invulnerable save, and the super doctrine build in.

How exspensive is it for 5 berserker in a transport? I suppose it also needs to compare to five berserkers in the land fortress as well, since it is rather good.


5 Beserks base are 110pts, the Sag is 110 and HLF 230, you can upgrade all of them a little. I've ben doing 2x5 Beserks and 2 HLF

Add: I want to like 3x10 Beserks with 6 Sagitaurs (its like 1300pts or something lol), but that requires an Outrider and Patrol bc the bikes are too important. I just love the idea of rushing up 6 T8 Razorbacks++ unloading Repentia++ (++ as in just better units).


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/18 16:22:36


Post by: JNAProductions


I dunno if the D3 is worth it-at least, in Kronus.

Outside Kronus, I definitely see the value, but inside... Again, 5 Berserks can do 30+ damage to a Knight, as long as it's been judged and you spend 1 CP on rerolls.

Edit: I am, it should be noted, doing this purely theoretically. I've not played the Dex yet-so I could be very wrong!


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/18 16:48:26


Post by: Amishprn86


 JNAProductions wrote:
I dunno if the D3 is worth it-at least, in Kronus.

Outside Kronus, I definitely see the value, but inside... Again, 5 Berserks can do 30+ damage to a Knight, as long as it's been judged and you spend 1 CP on rerolls.

Edit: I am, it should be noted, doing this purely theoretically. I've not played the Dex yet-so I could be very wrong!


Yeah with Hammers looking at the math, 4+ to hit but you can get full re-rolls, 3 JTs, +1 to hit. 5 of them no league with re-roll hits and 3 JT, is 15 attacks, 3+ with re-rolls just looking for 4+ to hit will be 11.25 wounds, 5+ save 9.3 failed saves (9) for 27 wounds. If you take anymore than 5, or give them +1 to hit, etc... you are adding 3-6 more damage. I can see Beserks losing Core or going up in points.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/18 17:01:45


Post by: JNAProductions


Oh, I meant Berserks with axes, in Kronus.

They hit, wound, and save the same with either profile, so it's either 20 attacks D2 or 40 D1. I'll use the D1 profile for this.

40 attacks
20 hits on a 4+, 20 rerolls for 10 more 4+ and 20/6 or 10/3 3s to hit.
10/9 wounds from the 3s to-hit, plus 30 autowounds
AP-4, so can't pass saves, for a total of 31.11 damage to a Knight.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/18 19:48:15


Post by: Bosskelot


With Berzerks, like much of the codex, there are so many overlapping buffs and outside synergies that it would take a lot to really reign them in. Just upping their points slightly, changing Ymyr to be a 6++ and increasing the cost of Sags could ("could" being the operative word) be enough to really reduce their effectiveness down... but even then you're still looking at a unit that can get 1cp re-roll hits and autowounding on 4's that also fights on death.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/18 21:56:35


Post by: Amishprn86


 Bosskelot wrote:
With Berzerks, like much of the codex, there are so many overlapping buffs and outside synergies that it would take a lot to really reign them in. Just upping their points slightly, changing Ymyr to be a 6++ and increasing the cost of Sags could ("could" being the operative word) be enough to really reduce their effectiveness down... but even then you're still looking at a unit that can get 1cp re-roll hits and autowounding on 4's that also fights on death.


Sags honestly seem the more balanced unit in the book, its 3 units of Beserks in HLFs thats a problem.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/19 16:48:17


Post by: stratigo


 Bosskelot wrote:
With Berzerks, like much of the codex, there are so many overlapping buffs and outside synergies that it would take a lot to really reign them in. Just upping their points slightly, changing Ymyr to be a 6++ and increasing the cost of Sags could ("could" being the operative word) be enough to really reduce their effectiveness down... but even then you're still looking at a unit that can get 1cp re-roll hits and autowounding on 4's that also fights on death.


GW has been perfectly happy taking strats out bag and shooting them, and even wide sweeping rules changes

And luckily squats data sheets are pretty solid so that this won’t take the army out back and shoot it along with whatever strat they nerf


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/22 07:58:19


Post by: Amishprn86


Looking at 1k event with only models that are out for now (event is Nov 17 so I might be able to get the new models but I need these ready just in case). It sucks its only 5 units out but lets try to make the most of them

GTL
Uthar WLTs
Champion Relic hammer
Warriors x10, Magna, L7 missile, Medi
Warriors x10, Magna, L7 missile, Medi
Warriors x10, Magna, L7 missile, Medi
Warriors x10, Medi
Pioneers x3, Gun, Searchlight
Pioneers x3, Gun, Searchlight

Optional Uthar replaced my High Kahl as YMYR or Urani


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/24 17:12:43


Post by: MinscS2


 Amishprn86 wrote:
Twilight Pathways wrote:
15 MW seems a bit unlikely, with full rerolls and fishing for 6s the average is about 9


LOL, yeah for sure, I was doing head math and messed it up a little, it would be more like 11 MWs, I was thinking you can get the free re-rolls and the free auto 6. 30 with re-roll all dice that nots 6's. So 5 6's, then re-roll the 25 dice for 4, then the 1 free, and some rounding numbers too. Still 10-12 MWs isn't bad.

But, man did the Plasma feel good to play though, no need to worry about 6's


Doesn't the tokens means X to hit autowounds and counts as a 6 to wound?
So 30 shots against a target with 3 tokens is on average at least 15 MW's on hits alone.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/24 17:15:24


Post by: JNAProductions


 MinscS2 wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
Twilight Pathways wrote:
15 MW seems a bit unlikely, with full rerolls and fishing for 6s the average is about 9


LOL, yeah for sure, I was doing head math and messed it up a little, it would be more like 11 MWs, I was thinking you can get the free re-rolls and the free auto 6. 30 with re-roll all dice that nots 6's. So 5 6's, then re-roll the 25 dice for 4, then the 1 free, and some rounding numbers too. Still 10-12 MWs isn't bad.

But, man did the Plasma feel good to play though, no need to worry about 6's


Doesn't the tokens means X to hit autowounds and counts as a 6 to wound?
So 30 shots against a target with 3 tokens is on average at least 15 MW's on hits alone.
The Volkite does Mortals on a 6 to-hit, not to-wound.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/24 17:57:01


Post by: MinscS2


 JNAProductions wrote:
 MinscS2 wrote:
 Amishprn86 wrote:
Twilight Pathways wrote:
15 MW seems a bit unlikely, with full rerolls and fishing for 6s the average is about 9


LOL, yeah for sure, I was doing head math and messed it up a little, it would be more like 11 MWs, I was thinking you can get the free re-rolls and the free auto 6. 30 with re-roll all dice that nots 6's. So 5 6's, then re-roll the 25 dice for 4, then the 1 free, and some rounding numbers too. Still 10-12 MWs isn't bad.

But, man did the Plasma feel good to play though, no need to worry about 6's


Doesn't the tokens means X to hit autowounds and counts as a 6 to wound?
So 30 shots against a target with 3 tokens is on average at least 15 MW's on hits alone.
The Volkite does Mortals on a 6 to-hit, not to-wound.


Ah, the Votann Volkite works differently I see, doing MW's on to-hit 6's and not to-wound 6's.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/29 14:20:11


Post by: Covenant


Now even Germany can play Votann again.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/29 21:37:39


Post by: Vilgeir


Rough change to THA, Forge-Master's Ancestral Judgement, and Ion Storm. They get progressively worse the more tokens on the target.

30% increase to the Hekaton doesn't really make sense after this nerf, but I guess it's just okay now instead of must-have.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/29 22:22:30


Post by: MinscS2


GW simply removing the "auto-wounds count as 6's to wound" without replacing all the weaponry/rules that having triggers on 6's to wound to triggering on 6's to hit show how half-assed and rushed this errata is. "Gotta nerf quickly before more tournaments bann our shiny new product, sales are going down, nooo!"

A bunch of LoV rules and weapons now get progressively worse by their own army-rule - and they got more expensive to boot.
It's so stupid I can barely believe it.



Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/29 22:38:17


Post by: cuda1179


Looks like my 2000 point list will now be a trio of buffing characters, 2 Sagitaurs, and 90-100 Herthkyn with upgrades. Horde city here I come.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/30 01:13:22


Post by: Amishprn86


Overall everything is fine and understandable except Thunderkyn didn't need any points up and Hearthguard easily went up too much, but the rest is fine.

I really hope GW take points off Hearthguard and Thunderkyn bc now I see literally no reason to take them.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/30 02:32:55


Post by: cuda1179


Hell, Thunderkyn needed a points drop BEFORE this balance, IMHO.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/30 04:59:12


Post by: Asenion


 MinscS2 wrote:
GW simply removing the "auto-wounds count as 6's to wound" without replacing all the weaponry/rules that having triggers on 6's to wound to triggering on 6's to hit show how half-assed and rushed this errata is. "Gotta nerf quickly before more tournaments bann our shiny new product, sales are going down, nooo!"

A bunch of LoV rules and weapons now get progressively worse by their own army-rule - and they got more expensive to boot.
It's so stupid I can barely believe it.



You know they are laughing all the way to the bank. It's like buying a McDonald's burger half cooked - you know it's McDonald's but even by their standards it's pretty bad.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/30 07:46:18


Post by: Bosskelot


 Amishprn86 wrote:
Overall everything is fine and understandable except Thunderkyn didn't need any points up and Hearthguard easily went up too much, but the rest is fine.

I really hope GW take points off Hearthguard and Thunderkyn bc now I see literally no reason to take them.


Thunderkyn were a good unit previously, they were just completely overshadowed by everything else in the book. Lots of armies would have killed to have a Thunderkyn unit in their book. The beamer ones might be too expensive now, but we'll have to see.

Hearthguard probably did go up 5 points too many but I can still see them being taken as maybe a 2x5, or maybe in like a 1x7 formation. Their damage output and the crazy amount of defense they can have (which makes a 2W model kind of ridiculous to shift) still makes them viable, but I do doubt you'll see one or two big blobs of them. 40ppm definitely feels like the logical increase they should have gotten.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/30 09:22:55


Post by: MinscS2


 Amishprn86 wrote:
Overall everything is fine and understandable except Thunderkyn didn't need any points up and Hearthguard easily went up too much, but the rest is fine.

I really hope GW take points off Hearthguard and Thunderkyn bc now I see literally no reason to take them.


Berserks went up too much as well. Compare them to similar units with a similar pricetag and you can see how overpriced they currently are.
Land Fortress biggest issue was the Magma Rail-abuse, which is now gone. No way is it worth 300 points currently either.

I expect we'll see broad point reductions in LoVs next balace update - an update that GW might actually have put some thoughts behind, instead of just massively nerfing everything in a panic due to being scared of loosing out on sales.

 Bosskelot wrote:

Their damage output and the crazy amount of defense they can have (which makes a 2W model kind of ridiculous to shift) still makes them viable


You're giving Hearthguard too much credit. They are literally about as easy to kill as a Terminator: They do have +1T, and no wound-rerolls, but 2 wounds with -1 damage is worse than 3 wounds in every regard, and they don't have an invuln by default. They're also worse in close combat due to having fewer attacks. At least they out-shoot the terminators.

In a game with 38 ppm Terminators, 45 ppm Hearthguard makes no sense, so I agree that 40 (tops) sound about right.



Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/30 18:09:41


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


::Laughes in Custodes:: You're complaints about cost amuse us.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/09/30 19:59:29


Post by: godswildcard


Played my first small game with them on Wednesday, so pre-nerf.

I played:

Kahl w/ Concussion Gauntlet and Volkite
Einhyr Champ w/ relic hammer
one squad of HK w/ MRR, ML, Medic, Scanner, Radio.
one squad of KH w/ Ion, MRR, Beamer, Medic, Scanner, Radio

My opponent ran elder:

Maugan Ra
5x Rangers
10x Guardians w/ multi-laser platform
War Walker
5x Warp Spiders

He won pretty handily on points. I could've played it better for sure, but he was just so much faster than me. Battle Focus meant he was able to stay out of charge range for most of the game if he wanted plus he was able to snag objectives much easier.

Even with the automatically advancing 3" I was surprised at how limited I felt with mobility.

The hearthkyn dealt some paint and pretty much took care of the war walker and the squad of guardians. Maugan Ra put 4 wounds on the Einhyr champion and then did another in combat. I would've killed him but the capped at three wounds per phase is brutal.

Warp Spiders DS near the Ion Blaster HK squad and easily wiped them out. That unit is kind of bonkers strong. Their shooting is soooo good.

I think my take-aways are that bikes and/or transports are going to be mandatory to pressure objectives or keep fast enemies like Eldar from going where we don't want them to go.

I was also surprised at how fragile everything felt. T4 doesn't mean much when every weapon in the game seemed to be designed to take out Space Marines. Void armor helped, but it often didn't matter too much that they couldn't re-roll wounds. Stuff still dies easily enough.

I didn't like the beamer. It doesn't seem like an 18" range will often be able to hit multiple units which I feel is an ability you're definitely paying for.

I'm also not sold on the MRR, which was true even BEFORE they went up in points. One shot and now not auto-wounding on 6s to hit with judgment tokens means you're very unlikely to ever see the damage spill over, and so you're paying a huge premium for an ability you likely won't use.

All in all though, I think it is a fun army and I'm looking forward to playing more games with them!


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/10/01 18:25:27


Post by: Doctor-boom


So after the point changes what are the units to take to get the job done?
I know its hard to say since more than half the codex isn't out yet. But between theoryhammer, proxies and 3rd party models, we should be able to have a pretty decent guess.
First there are 3 units that seems to be mandatory and probably worth loading up on.
1. The troops. Still polyvalent, still pack a punch at short range. So I think more than the mandatory minimum is the way to go.
2. The big boss. Judgment tokens looks like they are still the way to do damage. I don't think a list is viable without.
3. Now the bikes im not 100% sure wether the sagitaur or the bikes are best at objective grabing. One of the 2 is mandatory in the "3 squads of bikes or 3 sagitaur" or a mix? I'd like some matchmaker on that...

The rest I really really don't know.
A. Both melee unit will delete anything it reaches. But the reaching is the problem.
Berserker need a transport, hearthkin cost almost as much than berzerker+transport.
So which of the two is best at grabbing an occupied objective. And which one (including transport for zerker) can hold it better?
B.The fortress... at 300pts you'll have just one on the table, is it able to survive without character support. Is it able to do something better than the equivalent in points of other model can't do. On the other hand, kinda the only long range option (appart from the 3-4 troop magna rail...).
Can one make a case for having 2?

C. Characters. Psyker, mechanic or hth killer? Or another khal to max out tokens?
While the hth guy seems to destroy characters or knight in melee, how often is that going to happen?
The mechanic seems only worth it if you have a fortress, but then is a 1d3+2 w regenerating, ignoring 1 meltawound each turn... worth 425pts?
The psyker seems more polyvalent (1cp per turn, negate inv).
An extra khal seems a better bet, but I have a feeling the enemy will be saturated with token pretty fast and by turn 3 a 2nd khal will turn useless.

So how is the list building theory hammer consensus?


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/10/02 06:34:50


Post by: cuda1179


What is everyone thinking is the most effective squad weapon upgrade for Herthkyn? Most people are saying the Magna Rail Rifle, but I'm leaning towards the L7 missile launchers. Hits hard early, and can switch to high volume of fire after enough grudge tokens are out to rely on that.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/10/02 08:49:15


Post by: Phoenix Lord


I had decided to not buy the Votanns cos I'm already full of miniatures to paint and I've 4 army to follow but... My friends decided for me and gifted me the new box for my birthday so here I am.
Now, I haven't read anything about them, (you know, was tryng to not fall in temptation lol) I only know that they are considered OP by the community and GW decided to nerf them as faster as possibile .

Could someone give me an intro on the new Votanns?
How they play, what I should buy for enlarge the collection and when the other models will come out?


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/10/02 09:57:18


Post by: wuestenfux


 Grimskul wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/09/29/leagues-of-votann-balance-update-a-word-from-james-workshop/

Annnnnd that didn't take very long, did it.

Are these changes enough to make LoV less ''overpowered''?
Sorry have no codex yet.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/10/02 12:02:56


Post by: FezzikDaBullgryn


LoV will have good showings at a number of small competitive events, and then sweep a large event, at which time GW will convienently release a complete nerf of the faction, removing all that makes them good, and relegate them to another flavor of Primaris Marine faction. Then 10th will drop. And they won't see a codex update for another year+.

As the totally not a space Marine once said about GW: "This is the way".


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/10/02 13:58:31


Post by: Amishprn86


 wuestenfux wrote:
 Grimskul wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/09/29/leagues-of-votann-balance-update-a-word-from-james-workshop/

Annnnnd that didn't take very long, did it.

Are these changes enough to make LoV less ''overpowered''?
Sorry have no codex yet.


I played the new nerfs twice and they are much weaker than before, no room for fun units in comp and out of comp the fun units (aka Thunderkyn, Hearthguard, Champion) all feel pretty weak, and hit or miss at times even. HLFs and Beserks are still 60% of the DPS that basically only can score Grind them down. The army is going to struggle gaining points and a good player will make sure they deny you points rather than try to out kill, with IMO something like 40% less damage than before many armies will be able to do this someone easily. Its going to come down to mission, match up, and secondaries if it is going to be a hard or easy match up against LoV.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/10/02 16:57:44


Post by: Vilgeir


FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
LoV will have good showings at a number of small competitive events, and then sweep a large event, at which time GW will convienently release a complete nerf of the faction, removing all that makes them good, and relegate them to another flavor of Primaris Marine faction. Then 10th will drop. And they won't see a codex update for another year+.

As the totally not a space Marine once said about GW: "This is the way".


I don't think that's likely. They look far easier to handle especially now that their strongest synergies no longer really work and they'll be running far fewer units than they would have before. They seem poised to be the scourges of the middle tables. A gatekeeper army that really punishes lower tier armies and less experienced or less practiced players. They'll then fail to podium reliably at large events and then some will begin talking about how the nerf might have actually gone too far.

To me, they look solid mid to high tier now, but won't really change much of the meta at the top.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/10/02 20:18:41


Post by: MinscS2


 cuda1179 wrote:
What is everyone thinking is the most effective squad weapon upgrade for Herthkyn? Most people are saying the Magna Rail Rifle, but I'm leaning towards the L7 missile launchers. Hits hard early, and can switch to high volume of fire after enough grudge tokens are out to rely on that.


Planning on ending up with 60 Hearthkyn and initially I was gonna go full Rail/Beam, but I'm leaning more and more towards the L7 over the Beam.
As it currently looks. I'll probably end up with 6 Rails, 4 L7's and 2 Beams.
The Beam simply lacks the range (unless you play Ymyr), so you won't be able to fire it more often than not in turn 1 and potentially not even in turn 2.
The HYlas isn't bad, it just doesn't offer anything unique over the others, so I see it as rather pointless.

Remember that in a squad of 10, while you can have 2 heavy weapons, they can't be duplicates.




Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/10/04 02:04:29


Post by: Vilgeir


 MinscS2 wrote:

The HYlas isn't bad, it just doesn't offer anything unique over the others, so I see it as rather pointless.


I can see that being a viable place to throw 5 points if you've got a Warrior squad with room for the upgrade. It wants to shoot the same things your bolters want to anyway.

Still unsure how valuable the Magna-Rail will be in those units given it's got like no real chance to spillover against tough infantry units since there's no reason you won't be judging those particular units anyway. I guess it's one of the only sources for pure anti-tank tools, I suppose. Decisions, decisions...


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/10/04 14:00:16


Post by: terennNash


coming from being an ork player this feels very very different. i'm used to having close to 20 units to shift around with obvious throwaways.

list building post points hike has gotten alot tighter, it feels very AOS like where points on non-troops are so high it doesnt leave alot of room for granularity.

current build i'm looking at:

GTL - 1998pts, 0cp

Uthar - 1cp - Ancestral Bearing, Experienced Eye
Lord Grimnyr 2cp - crushing contempt, interface echo, Pragmatic wisdom, Murmuring Stave
Forge Master 2cp - master armourer, volumms master artifice(1 cp to potentially double or more his number of shots seems worthwhile)
1x10 bolter warriors w/ medpack
2x10 ion warriors w/ medpack, comms, railgun
1x5 Hearthguard 1cp - volkites and plasma blades, Warpstryk on the Hesyr. saves me 1cp during the game by prepaying for site to site
1x5 beserks w/ mole
2x6 pioneer w/ comms, searchlight and double Rotary Cannon
Hekaton w/ railgun and bolt cannons

gives up 10 for assassination, 10 for NoP, 3 for BiD

Bolters hold home, 5 beserks in the hekaton as it slow rolls forward. Hearthguard as a turn 1 deepstrike threat. bikes being fast response while ions march up the board
if it wasnt for HuntRs mark i dont think i would be running the Hekaton at all. 1cp to auto hit with the railgun then 6 to wound with Uthar.


secondaries:
Psychic Interrogation - between this interface echo and pragmatic wisdom the army has access to 5 cp/round
banners/RND/prospect

third will always be a tossup depending on the enemy - no prisoners/BiD are ideal, ancestors are watching if i know i can table my opponent.

with so few pieces, comms seem like an almost mandatory buff to ensure i get more our of every unit. looking at the cost of rail guns, i am tempted to drop them from infantry squads in favor of a beamer and L7 but ignoring invulns w/ap4 is too good to pass up


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/10/05 02:23:17


Post by: Vilgeir


Why so many Ion Warriors? You like the profile for them better than the extra range and shots on the bolters?

One of the things I'm a bit surprised about with GTL lists is the lack of Sagitaurs because it feels like a perfect way to leverage the per unit reroll by creating smaller Warrior squads, each with a high quality, low shot special weapon. Did you consider Sagitaurs in your list, or are you leaning more towards the equipment upgrades (medic, comms, etc.) being more valuable to you?

I have like zero units in my other armies that are on that large of a base and can also hit 6 models, but do you know how difficult it would be to maintain unit coherency for six Pioneers with terrain in play? Trivial, or tricky?


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/10/05 02:44:42


Post by: terennNash


 Vilgeir wrote:
Why so many Ion Warriors? You like the profile for them better than the extra range and shots on the bolters?

One of the things I'm a bit surprised about with GTL lists is the lack of Sagitaurs because it feels like a perfect way to leverage the per unit reroll by creating smaller Warrior squads, each with a high quality, low shot special weapon. Did you consider Sagitaurs in your list, or are you leaning more towards the equipment upgrades (medic, comms, etc.) being more valuable to you?

I have like zero units in my other armies that are on that large of a base and can also hit 6 models, but do you know how difficult it would be to maintain unit coherency for six Pioneers with terrain in play? Trivial, or tricky?



comms buy me reroll 1s for the whole unit for 5 points. Having run ork buggy lists for ages, i know Sagitaurs are going to die, quickly, or i am holding them back and spending 150 pts to combat squad some troops. any anti tank fire the enemy has will be pointed directly at them. not taking them is denying my opponent efficiency more than what i feel i am losing.

ion blasters vs bolters - against 1w models, bolters win, against multi wound models, ion blasters win. against the field, ion has far more utility than bolters. the pioneers have plenty of d1 shots.

pioneer base sizing - trivial. they have fly, there is no where they cannot go. running 6 mans gives efficiency w/ the comms array and searchlight, along with 2 basic pioneers that die off before losing anything upgraded. if anything i should probably be running 3x6 pioneers and pretend i am a pre-nerf custodes bike list that has more ranged output and less defense, but i dont want to give up the T1 deep strike threat with the hearthguard just yet - time will tell.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/10/05 04:50:05


Post by: Da-Rock


I'm running 4 Sagitaurs in my 2000pt list with x4 5 man squads of Ion inside.

The issue I have now is deciding on GTL or the Ymyr +4" range, 5++ saves and =1 ap at half range tokened units.

The Sagituars getting a 5++ is nice, but I learned long ago that my rolling saves in the 5 and 6 range are pretty bad so I am not jumping out of my seat.

I haven't built my two boxes yet so I can't play test what will feel right for me.

* maybe the +1 Toughness and all enemy units are treated as having 1 token is a good choice. My rolling of dice won't be involved in deciding if its good or not..... :-)


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/10/05 04:59:52


Post by: Vilgeir


terennNash wrote:
comms buy me reroll 1s for the whole unit for 5 points. Having run ork buggy lists for ages, i know Sagitaurs are going to die, quickly, or i am holding them back and spending 150 pts to combat squad some troops. any anti tank fire the enemy has will be pointed directly at them. not taking them is denying my opponent efficiency more than what i feel i am losing.

ion blasters vs bolters - against 1w models, bolters win, against multi wound models, ion blasters win. against the field, ion has far more utility than bolters. the pioneers have plenty of d1 shots.

pioneer base sizing - trivial. they have fly, there is no where they cannot go. running 6 mans gives efficiency w/ the comms array and searchlight, along with 2 basic pioneers that die off before losing anything upgraded. if anything i should probably be running 3x6 pioneers and pretend i am a pre-nerf custodes bike list that has more ranged output and less defense, but i dont want to give up the T1 deep strike threat with the hearthguard just yet - time will tell.


Thanks for explaining!

For what's it's worth, vis a vis the Sagitaurs, any anti-tank going into them is fewer shots trying to down your Hekaton or even punching into your bikes. Right now there's one primary target for that anti-tank, but they'll be efficient enough punching into T5 4+ obsec units after they focus the big threat into slag.

I understand your preference for Ions, that all makes sense, though I personally don't think their benefits outweigh their limited range for an army this slow. When Ion Storm was a thing, I was planning to have some in my collection. Now I feel like they'll just be worse in my local meta. So much -1 damage around these parts, but that's a local consideration and mileage varies.

Good to know on the base sizes and coherency with Pioneers. I didn't even notice they have fly.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/10/05 07:13:17


Post by: tneva82


 Da-Rock wrote:

The Sagituars getting a 5++ is nice, but I learned long ago that my rolling saves in the 5 and 6 range are pretty bad so I am not jumping out of my seat.


Bad as in 33% of the rolls


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/10/05 10:16:47


Post by: MinscS2


tneva82 wrote:
 Da-Rock wrote:

The Sagituars getting a 5++ is nice, but I learned long ago that my rolling saves in the 5 and 6 range are pretty bad so I am not jumping out of my seat.


Bad as in 33% of the rolls


He said that he is bad at rolling 5+, not that a 5+ is bad.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/10/05 10:43:21


Post by: tneva82


Well he is saying bollocks then. Nobody is different in rolling dice ;-)

Just because you think you are bad at rolling 5+ doesn't mean you are. It's confirmation bias. You roll bad and it sticks in your mind. Hey presto the false theory sticks.

Unless he's using lousy dices. They could be loaded though as said lousy dices. If you use loaded dices rolling bad is so stupid idea that they are lousy dices for that purpose as well


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/10/05 12:08:18


Post by: MinscS2


Sigh, some people just can't admit that they read things wrong can they?


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/10/05 12:23:44


Post by: cuda1179


Okay, my general list (and sorry for any spelling/terminology mistakes).

High Kahl, Volkite/fist
Kahl, Volkite/fist
Grimnyr

20 Herthkyn, Fist/plasma pistol, 2 L7, 2 plasma
20 Herthkyn, Fist, 2 L7, 2 plasma
20 Herthkyn, Fist, 2 L7, 2 plasma
10 Herthkyn, Sword, L7, plasma
10 Herthkyn, Ax, L7, plasma
10 Herthkyn, Fist, L7, Rail Rifle

2x Sagitaur with Sagitaur missile launchers.

With this much infantry I'm not sure which League to use. +1 Toughness would be nice, but treating 1 Grudge token as 2 is also good.



Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/10/06 02:33:56


Post by: Vilgeir


 cuda1179 wrote:
Okay, my general list (and sorry for any spelling/terminology mistakes).

High Kahl, Volkite/fist
Kahl, Volkite/fist
Grimnyr

20 Herthkyn, Fist/plasma pistol, 2 L7, 2 plasma
20 Herthkyn, Fist, 2 L7, 2 plasma
20 Herthkyn, Fist, 2 L7, 2 plasma
10 Herthkyn, Sword, L7, plasma
10 Herthkyn, Ax, L7, plasma
10 Herthkyn, Fist, L7, Rail Rifle

2x Sagitaur with Sagitaur missile launchers.

With this much infantry I'm not sure which League to use. +1 Toughness would be nice, but treating 1 Grudge token as 2 is also good.



Consider Ymyr at all? One of the cool things I like about Ymyr is that the invulnerable part of the Custom lets you decentralize away from your Kahl's Rampart Crest aura. The extra range will help you punch out sooner with your infantry as well.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/10/06 06:26:06


Post by: Da-Rock


tneva82 wrote:
Well he is saying bollocks then. Nobody is different in rolling dice ;-)

Just because you think you are bad at rolling 5+ doesn't mean you are. It's confirmation bias. You roll bad and it sticks in your mind. Hey presto the false theory sticks.

Unless he's using lousy dices. They could be loaded though as said lousy dices. If you use loaded dices rolling bad is so stupid idea that they are lousy dices for that purpose as well


LOL.....Man I get what you're saying, but Chaos theory would like to have a word with you. In our group we have guys who kill it on 5 up saves, but can't save a 3+ to save a life, (Haaaa see what I did there?). If mine is a 4 up save I get comments that its "Auto Save time". For the most part I agree it's a mental thing, but saying something like, "everyone rolls the same", makes no sense physically because that would be obviously false.

My other favorite comment about statistics and percentages is this human condition of thinking a percentage is absolute. 99% chance of not dying is awesome.......but it's not 100% and I'm pretty sure anyone who falls into that 1% doesn't give a crap that the statistics showed they had a 99% chance of not dying. It's similar to those who think because they are right that it somehow gives them armor against bad stuff.

33% chance of saving sucks balls because all I see is the 67% chance of failing....which neither view means anything until you roll the dice.........................it's all like my view on life, you are told to sit in the corner of a round room and are then judged on how well you accomplish it.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/10/06 07:29:29


Post by: wuestenfux


 MinscS2 wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
 Da-Rock wrote:

The Sagituars getting a 5++ is nice, but I learned long ago that my rolling saves in the 5 and 6 range are pretty bad so I am not jumping out of my seat.


Bad as in 33% of the rolls


He said that he is bad at rolling 5+, not that a 5+ is bad.


I'm in the same boat.
Rolling of 5+ is not reliable for me and so I dont count on it.
But 4+ is a totally different thing though.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/10/10 20:42:43


Post by: Vineheart01


Yes, rolling a die is statistically identical between people.
Yes, people still bias to hate certain rolls anyway.

I'm known in my area as 2- roller. Virtually every time i have a single die 2+ check i fail it. I legit had to look up the rules for Ramming Speed mortal wounds once because i actually failed it so many damn times in a row i forgot how many wounds it did lol


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/10/11 19:36:34


Post by: Da-Rock


People often misunderstand the end game of statistics. They don't look at the journey, just the final destination:

You can have two people rolling dice 100 times - statistically you can have one roll all 1s while the other rolls all 6s. If you roll enough times you get your average.

People lose sight of that when they talk about statistics. The journey to that average matters. A lot of people see what they want to see out of it........80% means you are almost always successful........what does it mean if all of that 80% happens during igsignificant moments of a game while the 20% plays out during the crucial moments?

This is the dice % that cracks me up for the mathhammer players. They need to read some chaos theory to see a bigger picture.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/10/12 03:07:29


Post by: terennNash


 Da-Rock wrote:


This is the dice % that cracks me up for the mathhammer players. They need to read some chaos theory to see a bigger picture.


friend wanted me to make a mono ork doubles list - 18 squigs, 17 deffkoptas, 2 mega dreads, squig boss, zagstruk, 20 grots.

on paper/avg those deff koptas do work. i actually play orks and i know better but i say nothing and let him have his fun.

i giggled the whole day watching him lose his mind rolling hot on the number of rokkit shots only to get 10% hits, or completely obliterate some poor 100 point unit when he rolls 22 hits out of 26 shots. all i could think was the james franco head in a noose "First time?" meme.

round 2 vs death guard+tau was especially brutal, DG pull off a long bomb charge and had 7 blightlord termies contesting an objective for 3 turns while they chewed up squig hogs that were suddenly doing half damage and hitting 25% less. he could figure out why they wouldnt die


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/10/29 10:55:22


Post by: MinscS2


So, I'm pretty sure that points will change (drop), but currently:

- 2 Sagitaurs with HYLas Beam Cannons and Twin Bolt Cannons = 300 pts

- 1 Hekaton /w Whatever-Main-Weapon-You-Fancy and 4 Bolt Cannons = 300 pts.
(Let's go with the SP Beamer for similarities sake.)

Sagitaurs:
18(2x9) T7 wounds with 3+ save.
4 S9 AP3 D.D6 24" Beam shots
12 Bolt Cannon shots (same as Hekaton.)
Can transport 2x5 space dwarfs.

Hekaton:
16 T8 wounds with 2+ save.
2 S8 AP3 D4 30" Beam shots that do double hits more than 15" away.
6 S7 AP2 D2 24" shots.
12 Bolt Cannon shots (same as Sagutairs).
Can transport 10 space dwarfs.
Ignores Light Cover when it shoots + Scanner keyword.

Am I missing something, but when and why would you ever bring 2 Sagitaurs over 1 Hekaton?

(Yes, I know both are overpriced, especially the Sagitaur.)


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/10/29 15:45:20


Post by: cuda1179


But can a Hekaton be in two places at once?


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/10/29 16:16:45


Post by: MinscS2


 cuda1179 wrote:
But can a Hekaton be in two places at once?


If it explodes, I can't see why not.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/10/30 01:23:15


Post by: ZergSmasher


I would think Sagitaurs are easier to hide, plus the whole combat squad thing (if that turns out being useful; the jury's out on that one). Not sure the beam weapon is the best choice on the Sagitaur either; aren't the other guns cheaper?

Hekatons are overcosted, but let's be honest here they were broken at 230.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/10/30 05:04:30


Post by: Asenion


Their win rate in Tournaments after the nerf is 30 percent according to Auspex Tactics, which means they are post-nerf perhaps the weakest faction in the game.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/10/30 06:38:28


Post by: ZergSmasher


Asenion wrote:
Their win rate in Tournaments after the nerf is 30 percent according to Auspex Tactics, which means they are post-nerf perhaps the weakest faction in the game.

The sample size so far is way too small to make such a broad claim. Once they've been in the wild (with their full model range) for a month or so, maybe then we can make educated claims about how strong/weak they are.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/10/30 08:09:57


Post by: Insularum


Asenion wrote:
Their win rate in Tournaments after the nerf is 30 percent according to Auspex Tactics, which means they are post-nerf perhaps the weakest faction in the game.
This is misleading, quite a few of the tournaments sampled required correct models only, severely limiting unit choice. I bet if we check back in once all models are available there will be a substantial improvement in performance, they may not be a potential top OP faction anymore but they will not be a bottom tier one either.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/10/31 10:34:58


Post by: wuestenfux


 Insularum wrote:
Asenion wrote:
Their win rate in Tournaments after the nerf is 30 percent according to Auspex Tactics, which means they are post-nerf perhaps the weakest faction in the game.
This is misleading, quite a few of the tournaments sampled required correct models only, severely limiting unit choice. I bet if we check back in once all models are available there will be a substantial improvement in performance, they may not be a potential top OP faction anymore but they will not be a bottom tier one either.

Performance will certainly improve when all the new shiny models are out there and players have understood how to play this faction.
I wonder how a horde of squat Warriors will do?


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/11/01 20:50:15


Post by: Nilok


So with the changes, what are the best options for bringing heavy weapons with the Hearthkyn?

Is the rail rifle just overprice at this point and better to go with the missile launcher, is it good to double up on heavy weapons like HYlas/Plasma Beamer and missile launcher?


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/11/01 23:44:40


Post by: Insularum


 Nilok wrote:
So with the changes, what are the best options for bringing heavy weapons with the Hearthkyn?

Is the rail rifle just overprice at this point and better to go with the missile launcher, is it good to double up on heavy weapons like HYlas/Plasma Beamer and missile launcher?

Still probably too early to say with any certainty, but IMO from best to worst:
1. Magna-rail (squat with this is 1 point cheaper than marine with lascannon, and better in every way that counts)
2. L7 missile (better missile launcher)
3. Plasma Beamer (generally not worth it, can be good with superior beam capacitors for tagging a unit to hit with core buster)
4. HYLas (model looks nice but adds nothing of value over bolters or ion guns, only take if you have nothing else to spend 5 points on)

I'd probably go for a matching pair of the big guns on a 20 strong squad, not so sure on mixing and matching any of the others on a squad of 10 though.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/11/02 02:23:33


Post by: cuda1179


For the cost I'm going full-tilt with L7 missile launchers. 10 points for a move and fire missile launcher is nice, despite a less-than-great range. I'm packing 9 of them in my list.

As for Sagitaurs, I'm going with Sag. Missle launchers. St10 is too good to pass up.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/11/02 21:33:37


Post by: Snitchey


 cuda1179 wrote:
For the cost I'm going full-tilt with L7 missile launchers. 10 points for a move and fire missile launcher is nice, despite a less-than-great range. I'm packing 9 of them in my list.

As for Sagitaurs, I'm going with Sag. Missle launchers. St10 is too good to pass up.


I could be wrong, but in a unit of 10 you can't duplicate the L7 so to have 9 your going to need 90 of them?

I was thinking I'd build 1 with rail and 1 with L7 but that does add quite a few extra points to the list when you have 3 squads of 10

Completely agree on the sag loadout. The missile launcher seems the best pick. Followed by the beam cannon. But that doesn't seem worth the extra 10 points over the launcher unless you get really good at lining up beam shots most turns.

I really can't decide how to build the beserks. Any suggestions for a unit of 5?


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/11/04 02:11:06


Post by: Domandi


Snitchey wrote:


I really can't decide how to build the beserks. Any suggestions for a unit of 5?


My friend who, I admit, is a much better player than me loves the hammers. I am thinking the axes tho. I just feel like the flexibility of the two types of hits wins out. That sweep attack can really come in handy imo.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/11/04 06:49:07


Post by: Kapteenigalaksi


I have to be missing something here. The L7 launcher has an ok profile for light infantry, but the focused profile is just plain bad with AOC.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/11/04 09:45:03


Post by: Snitchey


Domandi wrote:
Snitchey wrote:


I really can't decide how to build the beserks. Any suggestions for a unit of 5?


My friend who, I admit, is a much better player than me loves the hammers. I am thinking the axes tho. I just feel like the flexibility of the two types of hits wins out. That sweep attack can really come in handy imo.


I agree with you on the axes. They are more versatile. What I can't decide on is whether to add the gauntlets and the mole grenade launcher? The gauntlets seem a halfway house between the hammers and axes. But I wonder if the mole would be a distraction from getting these into melee ASAP


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kapteenigalaksi wrote:
I have to be missing something here. The L7 launcher has an ok profile for light infantry, but the focused profile is just plain bad with AOC.


It seems very similar to a lascannon to me. Shorter range but move and fire without penalty helps. I think the rail is overall the best pick as it's scary to almost everything. What else would you take alongside the rail instead of the L7?


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/11/04 15:51:48


Post by: terennNash


I wonder if the mole would be a distraction from getting these into melee ASAP


The mole is pure upside for 10 points. Mole does not replace their weapon, its in addition to, it gives them some non-los shooting, it grants an extra wound and attack, and most importantly opens up the 2cp strat to make something move half speed and fight last which could potentially be discounted via forgemaster.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/11/04 16:32:11


Post by: cuda1179


Snitchey wrote:
 cuda1179 wrote:
For the cost I'm going full-tilt with L7 missile launchers. 10 points for a move and fire missile launcher is nice, despite a less-than-great range. I'm packing 9 of them in my list.

As for Sagitaurs, I'm going with Sag. Missle launchers. St10 is too good to pass up.


I could be wrong, but in a unit of 10 you can't duplicate the L7 so to have 9 your going to need 90 of them?


92 Hearthkyn in my standard 2000 point list. I like hordes.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/11/04 21:25:35


Post by: Snitchey


That's a lot of troops! I aways prefer smaller model counts. Less to paint!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
terennNash wrote:
I wonder if the mole would be a distraction from getting these into melee ASAP


The mole is pure upside for 10 points. Mole does not replace their weapon, its in addition to, it gives them some non-los shooting, it grants an extra wound and attack, and most importantly opens up the 2cp strat to make something move half speed and fight last which could potentially be discounted via forgemaster.


Thanks for pointing that out. I assumed it was a replacement weapon not an additional. For 10 pts feels like a steal. The Gauntlets look alright to me for 5 pts to get an extra attack & make all those attacks higher strength than axe strike


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/11/05 03:00:24


Post by: cuda1179


Yeah, I'm hoping that with all the infantry counting as two models and throwing judgement tokens out like crazy with two Kahls I can keep objectives I claim early, then abuse all the autowounding on a 4+ to hit I'll do.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/11/05 23:28:48


Post by: Amishprn86


terennNash wrote:
I wonder if the mole would be a distraction from getting these into melee ASAP


The mole is pure upside for 10 points. Mole does not replace their weapon, its in addition to, it gives them some non-los shooting, it grants an extra wound and attack, and most importantly opens up the 2cp strat to make something move half speed and fight last which could potentially be discounted via forgemaster.


It also does have a couple cons for its larger base size, which I already had to work around a couple games so 1 of my Beserk units will not have it.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/11/07 21:39:31


Post by: Kapteenigalaksi


Snitchey wrote:


It seems very similar to a lascannon to me. Shorter range but move and fire without penalty helps. I think the rail is overall the best pick as it's scary to almost everything. What else would you take alongside the rail instead of the L7?


Going with HYLas. HunTR 3 S6 Ap-2 is not bad for 5 points. Damage is a bit meh, but it's some shooting before ion is in range..


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/11/08 23:18:18


Post by: ZergSmasher


I've come to the conclusion that for GTL at least the L7 and Magnarail are the best weapons for Hearthkyn. Both are potentially high-damage, single shot weapons that really like having that reroll available, particularly if shooting at something that hasn't gotten any Judgment Tokens yet. And the frag-type round for the L7 does very much the same job as the HYLas, if you find yourself needing more low-damage shots. Versatility is worth the extra 5 points, at least to me.

I can't find any real use case for the beam weapon though; as far as I can tell that thing is hot garbage.

I finally decided to take the plunge on LoV recently and picked up the army set, and I'm planning to sell my Space Wolves army to help pay for the rest of what I'll need. I'm playing around in Battlescribe to try and figure out a good competitive list, and said list must have at least one Land Fortress in it because that model is SEXY! Ideally it will have at least a couple of Sagitaurs in it as well because those are awesome-looking too. Anybody had a chance to try those units out (with proxies perhaps?) and can tell me how good they worked in an actual game?


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/11/09 18:27:33


Post by: JNAProductions


Made a list, would like feedback.
Thank you!


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/11/12 00:45:18


Post by: MinscS2


What weaponloadout do people prefer for their Thunderkyn?

I'm leaning towards the Beam but I'm also slightly tempted by the Grav...


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/11/12 02:15:26


Post by: ZergSmasher


 MinscS2 wrote:
What weaponloadout do people prefer for their Thunderkyn?

I'm leaning towards the Beam but I'm also slightly tempted by the Grav...

Usually the answer to this kind of question is always magnets, but having not seen the Thunderkyn kit in person myself I don't know how feasible that would be.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/11/12 19:43:14


Post by: Snitchey


 MinscS2 wrote:
What weaponloadout do people prefer for their Thunderkyn?

I'm leaning towards the Beam but I'm also slightly tempted by the Grav...


I like the look of the bolt cannon. If you offered most other armies a 36" range move and fire without penalty weapon with 3 shots S6 -2AP 2D they'd bite your hand off.

I can see the sense in the Grav but the range may hurt as the kin aren't quick and the swing in 3xD6 shots is very hard to rely on.

I really want to take 6 of these in a unit with bolt cannons. But I keep thinking why wouldn't I just pay a few more points & take a fortress instead


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/11/12 19:51:32


Post by: JNAProductions


The Grav looks pretty nice in Ymyr.
27” threat range isn’t bad, more shots even without blast on average, and D3 a lot of the time.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/11/13 00:51:47


Post by: Insularum


 MinscS2 wrote:
What weaponloadout do people prefer for their Thunderkyn?

I'm leaning towards the Beam but I'm also slightly tempted by the Grav...

Beams, and be careful picking a firing lane for them where there is going to be some traffic towards key objectives.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/11/13 01:10:52


Post by: JNAProductions


What do you see in the beams? An extra five points for one shot, even at D3, feels eh.
Also, the extra hit doesn’t synergize well with Judgement Tokens.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/11/13 17:59:34


Post by: Olthannon


Don't see the point in the beams, either the bolt cannons or possibly the grav. I think the thunderkyn are worth taking at the minute because people aren't too focused on them but they can put out a solid amount of damage.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/11/14 02:50:40


Post by: Domandi


 Olthannon wrote:
Don't see the point in the beams, either the bolt cannons or possibly the grav. I think the thunderkyn are worth taking at the minute because people aren't too focused on them but they can put out a solid amount of damage.


The extra hits add up tho. If the target unit is over 15" away, each hit = 2 hits. Then there is the damage you are doing to the mid unit. At 3 damage, you could really go after elite units and also hit the screen in front of them. Not to mention the stratagems you can set up. If they have a judgement token, Make your first shot auto hit with HUNTRs mark. Now the rest of your beam shots at that unit auto mw on a 4+ with the core buster stratagem. 2cp used but that unit is evaporating.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/11/14 09:35:57


Post by: Insularum


 JNAProductions wrote:
What do you see in the beams? An extra five points for one shot, even at D3, feels eh.
Also, the extra hit doesn’t synergize well with Judgement Tokens.
Area denial and a side order of character sniping for starters.

On top of that, in every army where it has existed - shoot again abilities have been considered so overpowered they have all been nerfed heavily. Scoring double hits per hit roll, and splashing onto multiple units per hit roll, is better than a shoot twice ability - especially when it isn't too hard to line up your shots when most factions play style involves moving a chunky block of units to the table centre.

Finally, beams are good on their own - the rest of the army can use the JT's.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/11/14 13:20:57


Post by: MinscS2


The Beams also have 30" range which is pretty high for LoV-standards.

The Bolt Cannons on the other hand, are just pimped up Heavy Bolters. Not bad, but not something LoV really needs more of.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/11/14 13:22:52


Post by: D6Damager


 Insularum wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
What do you see in the beams? An extra five points for one shot, even at D3, feels eh.
Also, the extra hit doesn’t synergize well with Judgement Tokens.

Area denial and a side order of character sniping for starters.


The codex explicitly shows an example that you cannot snipe with beams any character benefitting from 'look out sir'.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/11/15 02:11:02


Post by: ZergSmasher


To really do the beam thing, you'd kind of have to build your whole army around it. You have to have at least one beam weapon hit to enable Core Buster, which means either using HunTR's Mark as mentioned above or just scoring the hit. And most beam weapons have short ranges, other than the Thunderkyn's ones. Smart opponents will see your list and then spread out to prevent beams from hitting multiple units. It just feels kind of gimmicky.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/11/16 02:42:17


Post by: Domandi


Could forcing an army to spread out be a valid tactic tho? Most armies really rely on that 1-2 punch. Setting up counter chargers, screens, etc. So you could possibly mess with someone's plan by getting them to spread out more.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/11/16 08:28:54


Post by: tneva82


 Insularum wrote:
 JNAProductions wrote:
What do you see in the beams? An extra five points for one shot, even at D3, feels eh.
Also, the extra hit doesn’t synergize well with Judgement Tokens.
Area denial and a side order of character sniping for starters.

On top of that, in every army where it has existed - shoot again abilities have been considered so overpowered they have all been nerfed heavily. Scoring double hits per hit roll, and splashing onto multiple units per hit roll, is better than a shoot twice ability - especially when it isn't too hard to line up your shots when most factions play style involves moving a chunky block of units to the table centre.

Finally, beams are good on their own - the rest of the army can use the JT's.


"(excluding units that were not eligible to be targeted by this weapon when targets were selected)"

If you can beam character you can just point your magmarail/boltstorm/Grav/whatever and delete it right away. If you can't shoot the character you can't hit him with beam.

It's not exactly sniping as such if you are shooting at character you can shoot with every gun that has LOS. And if you don't have LOS you can't beam him either.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/11/16 14:02:10


Post by: terennNash


It's not exactly sniping as such if you are shooting at character you can shoot with every gun that has LOS. And if you don't have LOS you can't beam him either.


beams were the first thing i saw and made me want to play the army. but given beam weapons typically cost more for similar a similar stat line but with a third of the shots, it becomes hard to justify using them.

you would need to line up a shot across 3 units to make that beam weapon output worth it over a MATR autocannon on the sagitaurs for example. on a properly built table, thats going to happen less often than not, or you have to play very exposed to line up that shot, you will get it off once and then die. Or you could have played it safer, spent fewer points, done the same damage to a single unit and lived.

MAYBE if horde armies made a comeback there would be room to justify it, but that isnt happening any time soon.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/11/16 20:19:29


Post by: ccs


terennNash wrote:
It's not exactly sniping as such if you are shooting at character you can shoot with every gun that has LOS. And if you don't have LOS you can't beam him either.


beams were the first thing i saw and made me want to play the army. but given beam weapons typically cost more for similar a similar stat line but with a third of the shots, it becomes hard to justify using them.

you would need to line up a shot across 3 units to make that beam weapon output worth it over a MATR autocannon on the sagitaurs for example. on a properly built table, thats going to happen less often than not, or you have to play very exposed to line up that shot, you will get it off once and then die. Or you could have played it safer, spent fewer points, done the same damage to a single unit and lived.


And had less fun because you've fallen into the math-hammer trap & aren't playing the force as you really want.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/11/17 02:14:15


Post by: ZergSmasher


Oddly I think the Sagitaur's beam gun is probably the best beam, although its output is swingy due to d6 damage. It's still 2 lascannon shots. Only downside I really see is the high cost.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/11/17 19:11:34


Post by: terennNash


And had less fun because you've fallen into the math-hammer trap & aren't playing the force as you really want.


i live in a veritable shark tank of a gaming scene, several current top 100 players around. math hammer has been my norm since i started playing 2 years ago.

in a more casual friday night game against buds thats one and done i'll absolutely take fun or fluffy or skew lists; its a 3 hour investment tops, not 20.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/11/21 02:51:29


Post by: ZergSmasher


I've recently been trying to go through the codex and figure out all the good "murder character" builds the Leagues can take. One that was in a recent tournament-winning list was a Kronus Einhyr Champion with Exactor (the relic mass hammer) and the Kronus warlord trait. Basically that guy would have 6 attacks on the charge with full hit rerolls, doing d3+3 mortals on 6's to hit (and d3+3 regular damage on non-6's). Nasty!

I think you could also make an Einhyr Champion really gross in Ymyr, thanks to their Warlord trait Guild Connections for +1 to your non-relic weapon damage. Take that with the Darkstar Axe and he's throwing out 8 attacks that your opponent cannot use any kind of "feel no pain" or phase caps to mitigate. That trait is also okay on a Kahl, although they really don't get enough attacks to warrant it (and it doesn't work on relics).

One trait that is good on either a Kahl or an Einhyr Champion is Warrior Lord. It lets them ignore FnP and phase caps and have full wound rerolls; it's incredibly mean on an EC with the hammer, and honestly a Kahl with the relic axe can get good mileage out of it as well since he'll have 7 attacks. I'm planning to run an EC with this trait and Exactor in my GTL list; the GTL custom will let me reroll a hit if I happen to miss an attack, and full wound rerolls, while less necessary vs. units with any Judgment Tokens, could allow the EC to really punch above his weight. He could take out a C'tan in one round without too much dependence on dice luck.

Any other good murder character builds I missed?


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/11/24 04:14:56


Post by: ZergSmasher


Goonhammer recently featured a Leagues of Votann list that made the top table at a GT in Quebec:

https://www.goonhammer.com/competitive-innovations-in-9th-grand-showdown-pt-1/

The guy was running Ymyr and actually kept the troops fairly barebones, although he did spring for ion guns on one unit. He also had 2 Land Fortresses with all the ion guns, and a pair of Cthonian Beserk units with hammers, and 3 3-model bike units. I'm starting to wonder if I've made a bit of a booboo giving my troops all the bling; I may need to buy an extra box or two just to use as swaps so if I need to be WYSIWYG I'm not stuck carrying all the expensive stuff.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/11/27 16:06:54


Post by: Amishprn86


I bought 5 boxes of warriors so I could do anything I wanted.

I have 10 built with Ions, 3 Magnas, 3 Hylast, 3 Missiles, Medi, 2 Comms, 2 Scanners, and 3 Theyn with a melee weapon.

But I actually like our Warriors, i take 20 every game and at times a battalion for 30.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/11/30 15:39:00


Post by: terennNash


new FAQ is out....

Q: Do weapons with the Beam ability affect friendly units along the
line between the firing model and the target unit?
A: Yes. A wound roll should be made against those friendly units
in the same manner as attacks against enemy units.


Yes, that means if the beam travels over the unit the model is in, it hits its own unit.

Fun.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/11/30 23:22:33


Post by: Twilight Pathways


No one will play it that way obviously, but it does go to show how awful GW's understanding of their own rules is (also exemplified by the LoV rules upon release and their botched attempt to 'fix' them).

GW have always given Dwarfs the very shortest of thrift, I just didn't expect them to be *quite* so vicious towards them from the get-go, being a new army and all.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/11/30 23:47:33


Post by: Asenion


Twilight Pathways wrote:
No one will play it that way obviously, but it does go to show how awful GW's understanding of their own rules is (also exemplified by the LoV rules upon release and their botched attempt to 'fix' them).

GW have always given Dwarfs the very shortest of thrift, I just didn't expect them to be *quite* so vicious towards them from the get-go, being a new army and all.


Yeah dude super-lame.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/12/01 00:45:25


Post by: ZergSmasher


They need to FAQ their own FAQ...


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/12/01 01:39:33


Post by: Asenion


 ZergSmasher wrote:
They need to FAQ their own FAQ...


Lol! Put some ice on that burn yo!


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/12/01 02:50:45


Post by: ccs


Twilight Pathways wrote:
No one will play it that way obviously,


People will definitely play it that way. Especially in the tourneys you all worship.
Right now in fact people are coming up with ways to take advantage of being able to hit thier own units.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/12/01 05:03:55


Post by: ZergSmasher


Now that we've had a few weekends' worth of tournament results to look at, it seems that most competitive Votann builds are Kronus for melee-heavy or Ymyr for shooty builds. The most recent Goonhammer Competitive Innovations article features one of each kind of list that made it to top tables this past weekend, with a mention of one player doing well with a Urani-Surtr list as well. I really shouldn't be surprised that Kronus is doing well as it's basically Bloody Rose Sisters but with short angry guys instead of nuns. I'm honestly surprised we haven't seen a Greater Thurian League list doing well yet; I honestly figured they'd be a top contender.

Speaking of GTL, here's a list I cooked up. I'd be curious to hear anyone's thoughts on it:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/807907.page
I like the idea of mechanized infantry enough that I might actually try this assuming I can come up with three more Sagitaurs. I won't have my full Votann army ready for play before next spring though (kinda short on $$$ at the moment), so it's all theorycrafting at this point.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/12/01 10:59:11


Post by: MinscS2


Just waiting for Flame-weapons to also inflict friendly fire now then.

Surely if Beam-weapons inflict friendly fire, then Flame-weapons should have an even bigger propensity to do so?


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/12/01 13:15:14


Post by: usernamesareannoying


im a little confused by that FAQ... it says you can hit units it crosses over but nowhere does it say including the unit it is in.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/12/01 13:46:22


Post by: EightFoldPath


There are two things this could mean, the trolls are getting very excited about (2) because it looks like a really good wind up opportunity. I'm amazed it hasn't reached YMDC yet.

1) You can hit a friendly model in your own (greater than one model) unit.

Makes sense to me. If you don't want to do this, don't stand the beam weapon dude/dudette/robodude at the back of your unit and shoot through it.

2) A single model unit firing it's beam weapon will hit itself because they'll argue that "when you draw the line for the beam weapon it starts on the base of the model firing it."

I don't even care if this is technically RAW correct or not, because if you play 40k with a normal peron it shouldn't come up just like 8th edition assault weapons. And if you then meet that guy in a tournament and have to call over a TO, that TO is not going to be impressed and is going to rule in your favour. There are always exceptions, if you go to a 6 player tournament in Smallsville and the TO is either incompetent or corrupt you could get ruled against... At which point you just accept your fate and chalk it up as the price of knowing which venue/organiser to avoid in future.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/12/01 17:26:30


Post by: usernamesareannoying


but why is the beam any different from a bolter etc... those guys shoot through members of their own unit without issue, why would the beam hit a member of the firing unit?

its probably a moot point until clarified if ever.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/12/02 05:25:04


Post by: Da-Rock


GW is dumb.....like Politician level dumb.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/12/02 06:03:15


Post by: Asenion


 Da-Rock wrote:
GW is dumb.....like Politician level dumb.


They barred people from playing their own games in their own stores. It makes about as much sense as a burger joint where you aren't allowed to eat ground beef.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2022/12/10 01:54:26


Post by: ZergSmasher


Looks like Ymyr Land Fortresses with all the beams are the current hotness. Just don't have any of your guys standing in front of one!


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2023/01/05 15:00:44


Post by: MinscS2


So lates update brings the following changes to LoV:

Khâl +10 pts
E. Champion +10 pts
Grimnyr +10 pts
Land Fortress +10 pts
Warriors +1 ppm
Berserks +3 ppm

Thunderkyn -5 ppm

Honestly reaching a point where I'd rather they nerf our units than keep increasing their pointcost, it's getting hard to maintain diversity in listbuilding when everything is so god damn expensive...


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2023/01/05 15:05:11


Post by: usernamesareannoying


yeah i never felt like votann should be a low model count elite army.
they're making it go that way minus the elite part.
is the hekaton really worth 310?


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2023/01/06 00:55:11


Post by: cuda1179


With tactical Marines getting free weapons I think our troops, when kitted out, may be more points per model now.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2023/01/06 02:28:50


Post by: ZergSmasher


 cuda1179 wrote:
With tactical Marines getting free weapons I think our troops, when kitted out, may be more points per model now.

Not quite, but it's closer than it should be, especially if you absolutely bling your Hearthkyn squads to the nines. 10 Tacticals are 180 points; most blinged-out Hearthkyn units I see around are 150-160-ish (increase those by 10 of course now that they've gone up again). On the plus side, we don't need as many troops with the new Arks of Omen detachments. We can take more Fast Attack now, which means we can have 3 units of bikes plus a couple of Sagitaurs if we want to (and neither of those went up in cost!).


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2023/01/06 14:29:44


Post by: cuda1179


 ZergSmasher wrote:
 cuda1179 wrote:
With tactical Marines getting free weapons I think our troops, when kitted out, may be more points per model now.

Not quite, but it's closer than it should be, especially if you absolutely bling your Hearthkyn squads to the nines. 10 Tacticals are 180 points; most blinged-out Hearthkyn units I see around are 150-160-ish (increase those by 10 of course now that they've gone up again). On the plus side, we don't need as many troops with the new Arks of Omen detachments. We can take more Fast Attack now, which means we can have 3 units of bikes plus a couple of Sagitaurs if we want to (and neither of those went up in cost!).


You're right. I was assuming Fist, plasma pistol, plasmagun, missile for both sides, but forgot that I also included a medic, etc. for the squats. WIthout the specialist guys the Squats would be 170 to the marine's 180.

Squats are slightly killier, but less durable, slower, and less flexible. Not to mention have worse support.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2023/01/08 18:41:12


Post by: stratigo


 usernamesareannoying wrote:
yeah i never felt like votann should be a low model count elite army.
they're making it go that way minus the elite part.
is the hekaton really worth 310?


Supported yes, without the brokhyr and strats in the proper subfaction, no.

The issue of modern 40k


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 cuda1179 wrote:
With tactical Marines getting free weapons I think our troops, when kitted out, may be more points per model now.


Of course, in bad news for everyone who bought them, hearthkyn have NO place in our armies now


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2023/01/08 19:15:03


Post by: MinscS2


Yepp, getting less and less reason to field Hearthkyn. Might as well go with Bikes instead with the new detatchment.

It's been obvious already since the hamfisted pre-launch-nerf that GW playtested LoV way to little, and have no real clue on how to balance the army.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2023/01/09 02:30:31


Post by: ZergSmasher


The first nerf was necessary; the book as written was probably the most busted book of 9th edition hands down. After that nerf and people started actually playing the faction in tournaments it was reasonably balanced, putting up some strong finishes but nothing overwhelming. Not sure what made GW think a second round of nerfs was necessary but here we are.

Bikes and vehicles may be the way to go now, with a unit of Hearthguard or Beserks for some counterpunch vs. melee armies. Personally I think both of those units are overcosted now, but they are what we have. Thunderkyn got a points drop but are most likely still not good (grav ones in Ymyr have me raising an eyebrow though in a pure shooty build). One unit of Hearthkyn could be useful for the Troops-specific objectives; put them in a pair of Sagitaurs and you can have them be in two places at once.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2023/01/09 10:22:40


Post by: MinscS2


 ZergSmasher wrote:
The first nerf was necessary; the book as written was probably the most busted book of 9th edition hands down.


It was, but it was also way too ham-fisted. They nerfed everything, even stuff that didn't need nerfing (like Thunderkyn) - because they lacked data and acted in panic due to LoV getting banned in a tournament.



Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2023/01/13 18:26:39


Post by: KirvesUK


Hi all. Only played a small game with my Votann which probably didn't give me a full flavour of the Thurian League, but nevertheless I would like to try something different in my next game.

Is anyone experienced out there of trying both the invulnerable save Ymyr and the plus one toughness Urani?

I think both would complement the Land Fortress x 2 that I have? Also, my infantry died slightly quicker than expected!

Cheers


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2023/01/21 01:57:05


Post by: stratigo


 MinscS2 wrote:
 ZergSmasher wrote:
The first nerf was necessary; the book as written was probably the most busted book of 9th edition hands down.


It was, but it was also way too ham-fisted. They nerfed everything, even stuff that didn't need nerfing (like Thunderkyn) - because they lacked data and acted in panic due to LoV getting banned in a tournament.



This wasn't why GW panicked, that tournament bans all pre faq books


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2023/01/21 06:59:00


Post by: tneva82


Not all. Not on that scale.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2023/01/21 10:13:59


Post by: MinscS2


stratigo wrote:
 MinscS2 wrote:
 ZergSmasher wrote:
The first nerf was necessary; the book as written was probably the most busted book of 9th edition hands down.


It was, but it was also way too ham-fisted. They nerfed everything, even stuff that didn't need nerfing (like Thunderkyn) - because they lacked data and acted in panic due to LoV getting banned in a tournament.



This wasn't why GW panicked, that tournament bans all pre faq books


This is straight up false...


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2023/02/09 09:30:20


Post by: dan2026


 ZergSmasher wrote:
The first nerf was necessary; the book as written was probably the most busted book of 9th edition hands down. After that nerf and people started actually playing the faction in tournaments it was reasonably balanced, putting up some strong finishes but nothing overwhelming. Not sure what made GW think a second round of nerfs was necessary but here we are.

Bikes and vehicles may be the way to go now, with a unit of Hearthguard or Beserks for some counterpunch vs. melee armies. Personally I think both of those units are overcosted now, but they are what we have. Thunderkyn got a points drop but are most likely still not good (grav ones in Ymyr have me raising an eyebrow though in a pure shooty build). One unit of Hearthkyn could be useful for the Troops-specific objectives; put them in a pair of Sagitaurs and you can have them be in two places at once.


Could you elaborate more on your thoughts on Grav Thunderkyn in Ymir?
Why do you think they are a good option?


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2023/02/09 16:31:09


Post by: MinscS2


 dan2026 wrote:

Could you elaborate more on your thoughts on Grav Thunderkyn in Ymir?
Why do you think they are a good option?


Probably because Grav is pretty good with the main drawback being poor range - and Ymir counteract this drawback somewhat.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2023/02/10 00:56:40


Post by: ZergSmasher


 MinscS2 wrote:
 dan2026 wrote:

Could you elaborate more on your thoughts on Grav Thunderkyn in Ymir?
Why do you think they are a good option?


Probably because Grav is pretty good with the main drawback being poor range - and Ymir counteract this drawback somewhat.

This, exactly. There has been some success with them already.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2023/03/23 07:46:36


Post by: cuda1179


Well, looks like we will have Jump pack Hearthkyn in the not too distant future, according to the Adepticon preview. Anyone thinking pistol and CCW squats with jump packs have a use?


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2023/03/24 05:33:09


Post by: ZergSmasher


It's looking more like there's a jump pack for exactly one guy; I'm not even sure if that will have any 40k rules (unlike the HYLas Rotary Cannon, which will almost certainly be added to the list of specials Hearthkyn can take). If they do add a full unit of jump guys, it probably won't be until the second wave of Votann units arrives along with their 10th edition codex. Far too early to speculate.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2023/06/07 16:43:30


Post by: usernamesareannoying


after seeing some of the data cards anyone have any thoughts on how things are gonna play out for votann?
i'm still trying to decide on how i want to build my warriors
one more week to wait for our data cards i guess.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2023/06/08 21:02:58


Post by: cuda1179


I have to say that I am very glad to see Votann being more hordy and less elite. I always felt their spot was "kinda like a Marine scout, perhaps with extra perks". They should be outnumbered by IG, outnumber marines.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2023/06/13 16:35:59


Post by: usernamesareannoying


what do you think the odds are of seeing new units in the data cards tomorrow?
probably pretty slim huh?
i thought maybe theyd give us a treat and turn some of the killteam stuff in to units.
man id really love some kind of dreadnaught though...
one more day to go


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2023/06/14 08:38:41


Post by: cuda1179


 usernamesareannoying wrote:
what do you think the odds are of seeing new units in the data cards tomorrow?
probably pretty slim huh?
i thought maybe theyd give us a treat and turn some of the killteam stuff in to units.
man id really love some kind of dreadnaught though...
one more day to go


I know it's not going to happen, but I wish they'd port over that Necromunda mini-dread thing, just for Variety. That or some Ironkyn XXL sized things.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2023/06/14 11:26:42


Post by: usernamesareannoying


im sure youre right Cuda, i was being extremely optimistic and hopeful... lol.
you dont know how upset i was last night when i remembered we get our cards tomorrow and today is imperium.

i wonder if theyll go the AoS route and only put points on units while upgrades are free options.

they started it with space marines not long ago so it'll be interesting.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2023/06/15 15:20:40


Post by: usernamesareannoying


just looking at the warriors we got beat up a little :(

any extra point of toughness is cool but going to a 4+ to hit sucks.

weapons are kinda jacked too.

any other takeaways?


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2023/06/15 18:46:08


Post by: Polonius


This is true of all factions, but Votann are going to live or die by the points costs. Space marines look really, really good, but the assumption is that their prices are going up, relative to 9th. I would guess Votann goes down relative to 9th. If not... it's gonna be some tough sledding.

The main mechanic requires losing units to procure tokens. At 130+ points, Kin are a bit spendy to throw away for that. Still, trading plus one toughness for a slew of nerfs (-1 to hit, no void armor, weapons going to heavy, lower AP on bolters and Damage on ion) and losing Ymyr strongly suggests they'll be priced much cheaper. In 9th they were pretty close to tactical marines in utility and cost, now they seem more like firewarriors or guardians. In truth, if that means more grist for judgement tokens, that's fine.

Enhancements are really good. giving everything in range of an objective a judgment token is spicy, moving from one to two is excellent. A long list remains good, although that's gonna have to go on hearthguard or something killier. Your second HG unit wants grim demeaner because LD7 isn't great, and ignoring stealth and the like is great.

Likewise, the stratagems really favor big blocks of hearth guard. Plus one AP in combat? yes please. Fall back and shoot is always top tier, especially on thunderkyn or the hekaton. Tokens for going under half isn't ideal, but at least it lets you dish some tokens. And void armor can help a unit (again, like hearth gaurd) for a phase.

As for the Hearthguard themselves... they got the extra pip of toughness, but they lost damage reduction. They did gain the new transhuman type rules, of -1 to wound if the attacks' Strength is greater than the units Toughness. this means S7 or higher gets a -1 to wound. Probably not a great trade. The weapons stay the same, although grenades and the plasma lose a point each of AP. The plasma blade lost a point of AP, while the first gained a point of strength. So, overall probably less durable, but retain nearly all shooting and most of the combat. They can gain deep strike or a 5+++. I think they'll fulfill the same roll as normal, basically terminator equivalents, but they need to be a bit cheaper to make up for the lack of inherent deepstrike/invlunerable, as well as being only two wound.

Bikes got a big nerf. BS4+ hurts, the Hylas lost three shots and some AP, and while the ion beamer gained a shot, it's down to D1. Sure, they can ignore stealth, but it's a big downward trend for a core unit.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2023/06/15 19:36:24


Post by: usernamesareannoying


yeah i think what you said about points is true... its all going to come down to what we're paying.
i think all of the negative energy on the board is making me look at leagues poorly.

have we seen a road map yet?
i wonder when we're getting an actual codex again.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2023/06/15 21:45:08


Post by: tneva82


No idea.

Marines might not overall go up that much though individual units might have bigger changes. One tabletop titans 2k army was 1.9k 9e and had enchantments which tightens gap.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2023/06/15 23:18:08


Post by: MinscS2


After having read trough their rules today, my initial reaction is that LoV will be dead on arrival - unless they're saved by substantial pointreductions.

While reading trough my other armies (except Eldar, haven't gotten around to those yet) my feelings where more or less "gained some, lost some, but still looks fun, can't wait to play it".

While reading trough LoV I just felt increasingly hollow: A metric ton of stuff has been lost and in return they've gained very little in return.

I'll leave my final verdict untill I've seen the points, no use ranting about it just yet.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2023/06/16 02:34:01


Post by: cuda1179


Squat horde is dead. Unit sizes for Hearthkyn are set exactly at 10. That means no more than 60 Hearthkyn, and no other troops options. I have 95 of the buggers to make a horde list. Add to this that their points are likely going down and my 1400 points of Hearthkyn is now more like 800, with 35 models collecting dust.

I don't like that CCWs were homogenized. However, I DO like that two other guys in the squad can take them now.

I do like that they added another heavy weapon option to the Hearthkyn.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2023/06/16 10:54:14


Post by: usernamesareannoying


do you guys feel like ours hurts al little more simply because we lack the variety of units the other armies have?

im still not loving the loss to bs but the extra toughness is cool.
i wonder if it really helps anything though.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2023/06/16 17:11:33


Post by: MinscS2


Read trough the points, my impression is "not amazing but can probably work."

Some good reductions across the board (as expected given everything that was removed and/or nerfed)

Uthar: 160 -> 115
Khal: 100 -> 90
Champ: 130 -> 75
Grimnyr: 100 -> 75
Brokhyr: 90 -> 75
Warriors: ~18 -> 13,5
Hearthguard: 45 -> 33
Berserk: 34 -> 27
Pioneer: 43 -> 35
Thunderkyn: 35 -> 31,67
Sagitaur: 140 -> 120
Hekaton: 320 -> 245
(Points are average PPM of how I used to field these units.)

In the end, the only unit that really pops at me (in a negative way) are the Berserks: Yeah they went down in price, but ain't no way in hell they're worth 27 in their current state.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2023/06/16 18:13:41


Post by: usernamesareannoying


sucks the sagitaur went to 1 so now you can have max 3 instead of 6.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2023/06/16 18:20:01


Post by: Olthannon


 usernamesareannoying wrote:
sucks the sagitaur went to 1 so now you can have max 3 instead of 6.



I believe you can still field that because of them being dedicated transports.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2023/06/16 18:43:15


Post by: usernamesareannoying


 Olthannon wrote:
 usernamesareannoying wrote:
sucks the sagitaur went to 1 so now you can have max 3 instead of 6.



I believe you can still field that because of them being dedicated transports.
dang, thanks olthannon, i missed that. on a related note... we can split hearthkyn into two 5 man squads if you take a sagitaur. anyone see a use for that?


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2023/06/16 19:57:54


Post by: Voss


I think one of the oddest things about this army is there are multiple ways to get +1 to hit (judgements, Brokyr Iron-Master and [Heavy]), but they don't stack so it doesn't matter.
But its baked in so hard to the BS 4+/5+ for heavy weapons that you really feel it.

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
. we can split hearthkyn into two 5 man squads if you take a sagitaur. anyone see a use for that?


You could try to park a magna-rifle, the other special weapon of choice, medi-pack, scanner and theyn (to tank damage with his 4++) somewhere while the other half of the squad scoots around to cap objectives.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2023/06/19 20:53:08


Post by: usernamesareannoying


What the heck are we supposed to use for anti armor?
The one gun on the hekaton?


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2023/06/19 22:25:49


Post by: OOTN


Not at all pleased with the state of the faction. Especially Warriors being further nerfed, though I suppose they're certainly a lot less expensive now that they get all their upgrades for free. I just... I don't know. They don't look very fun to play. I'll try to reserve judgement until I actually try them out though.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2023/06/20 00:05:15


Post by: MinscS2


usernamesareannoying wrote:What the heck are we supposed to use for anti armor?
The one gun on the hekaton?


Ironmasters Grav-rifle.
Warriors /w Magna-rail (and to some extent L7's)
Sagitaurs /w HYLas / SML's
Thunderkyn /w Grav-Cannons
Hekaton /w Heavy Magna (or against T10 Heavy Beamer)

And massed S6+ against anything with 2 tokens.

OOTN wrote:Not at all pleased with the state of the faction. Especially Warriors being further nerfed, though I suppose they're certainly a lot less expensive now that they get all their upgrades for free. I just... I don't know. They don't look very fun to play. I'll try to reserve judgement until I actually try them out though.


Yeah LoV seems "decent enough" but the whole Index just reeks of disinterest. I'm gonna give them a go but I don't feel the same itch to play them as I do with some of my other armies.
There's not alot of synergy (except for the focus on tokens) and some weird designchoices that gives me the impression that whoever made the rules didn't really care.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2023/06/20 01:54:33


Post by: ZergSmasher


Should we start a new thread for the new edition? Maybe title it "Diggy Diggy Hole" or "Rock and Stone" or "Luck Has, Need Keeps, Toil Earns". I'd start one myself, but I'm already sort of curating the Dark Angels one after starting it.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2023/06/20 11:39:52


Post by: usernamesareannoying


 MinscS2 wrote:
usernamesareannoying wrote:What the heck are we supposed to use for anti armor?
The one gun on the hekaton?


Ironmasters Grav-rifle.
Warriors /w Magna-rail (and to some extent L7's)
Sagitaurs /w HYLas / SML's
Thunderkyn /w Grav-Cannons
Hekaton /w Heavy Magna (or against T10 Heavy Beamer)

And massed S6+ against anything with 2 tokens.

all of those will be breaking armor on a proper T11/12 tank probably on a 5+ at best and some of them are short range. Im discounting grudge tokens because its a circumstantial item and i tend to ignore those. maybe it's just a bad habit of mine and i shouldnt?
of course we have to use what we have right.
i sure do wish GW would make some more sagitaur
wonder if i should buy a hekaton???


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2023/06/21 13:45:37


Post by: Voss


Im discounting grudge tokens because its a circumstantial item and i tend to ignore those. maybe it's just a bad habit of mine and i shouldnt?

You definitely shouldn't. Its the core army rule, and the army profiles are definitely built with the assumption that judgement tokens push most of them to 3+ to hit.

A Kâhl for Grim Efficiency and someone with a judgement-related enhancement (preferably Appraising Glare once the terrible typo is fixed- it currently activates and ends in the command phase) seem mandatory to keep the army running.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2023/06/21 14:22:40


Post by: usernamesareannoying


just as a sanity check... if i run dual kahls i can still only assign one token per turn right?

Grim Efficiency: Once per battle round, in your Command
phase, you can select one model from your army with this
ability, then select one enemy unit that is visible to that
model. That enemy unit gains 1 Judgement token.

it just seems like there are not enough sources to make the tokens useful.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2023/06/21 15:32:34


Post by: Vilgeir


 usernamesareannoying wrote:


it just seems like there are not enough sources to make the tokens useful.


They're always useful, just that you can't really rely on them being on all the time against everything. I fear this army, more than perhaps any other, is harmed tremendously by such a small unit selection. Everything appears to be internally balanced pretty well, but with so few options it feels like Votann are missing a lot of the design space other factions enjoy and it leads to poorly defined strengths and weaknesses. Not to mention how some of that internal balance is attributed to just poor Leader interaction. That'll be an issue affecting external balance for some time, and while a second wave is all but guaranteed, the 10th edition codex roadmap shared previously does not suggest it will arrive before Spring 2024.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2023/06/27 14:01:02


Post by: MinscS2


Having played a few 10th games with my LoV now, this is how I feel about our units (in terms of internal balance, not saying that a "good" unit here is by any means equal to a good unit in say Eldar. LoV is currently low-tier army for sure):

Good:

- Khal (first one): 
Solid Leader, giving his unit Lethal Attacks and a 5++. Every LoV-list should contain at the very least one Khal due to Grim Efficiency due to how wonky it is to deal out tokens now. 
Option to deepstrike a unit of Warriors sounds fun but not sure if it's something I'd ever use. 

- Einhyr Hearthguard:
Easily the best unit in our codex. I can see why tournamentlists contain 3x10 of these. I prefer Volkite and Fists and with an attached Khal it's a really dangerous unit, and very tanky with 2+/5++ and the new "transhuman". The Grenade Launchers with blast eradicates any form of horde-unit. 

- Hernkyn Pioneers:
Not as good as they used to be, but still good. A fast and fairly shooty unit in an otherwise slow army. Scout and Outflank for added movementshenanigans.

- Sagitaur:
Initially I thought this was a stupid unit with a stupid specialrule (Blistering Advance). I still think Blistering Advance is a stupid rule that I will rarely use (being able to shoot with the 5 embarked Warriors will *never* be worth giving up the Sagitaurs own shooting for) but it might help to reach an objective in a pinch. After giving the Sagitaur a go however, I found it surprisingly tanky with its T10 and more importantly, the HYLas Beamcannon is an amazing weapon and adds some much needed "long range" (for LoV) anti-tank.
Splitting Warrior units into smaller units also means more judgement tokens. 

- Hekaton: 
Still good, especially with an Iron-Master nearby. Fire-Support seems tailormade for having 5 Hearthguard with Volkite embarked. I'm not too keen on the Heavy Magna-rail anymore though (1 shot that hits on a 3+ at best) is too swingy. Instead I've started favoring the SP Heavy Conversion Beamer, since it averages 3 hits on anything outside 12". Add tokens and it's surprisingly good against though targets, especially since the Hekaton ignores cover. 

- Enhancement: Appraising Glare: 
Easily the best Enhancement we have, I'd even say it's crucial now given how much harder it is to deal out tokens. I found that it basically added 2-3 (temporary) tokens every turn. 
(Yes, I'm aware of the obvious typo that technically makes it useless. My gaminggroup chose to ignore it.)

- Enhancement: A Long List: 
Solid enhancement on a Leader that attaches to say 10 Hearthguard. Can potentially result in several "new" tokens being added with some clever splitfire. 



Meh:

- Einhyr Champion:
Attaching him to a unit of Hearthguard is a trap, I much prefer attaching my Khal to my Hearthguard. He is faily cheap though, and is a big enough threat on his own to distract your opponent or cause some havoc if he's ignored. He's also cheap and gives away a token when he dies. Distraction-Champion.

- Khal (if more than one):
Still a good leader probably the best option we have to attach to both Warriors and Hearthguard. Looses alot of value after the first one though, since Grim Efficiency doesn't stack. 

- Brôkhyr Iron-master:
+1 to hit sounds good until you realize that it doesn't stack with tokens. He does bring 4 extra bodies to whatever unit he is attached to and he does repair stuff. He can even damage enemy vehicles in a pinch. Oh how I wish he handed out +1 BS instead...

- Hearthkyn Warriors:
BS5+ on some of their heavy weapons really hurt these guys, as did the Rail Rifle now having 18" range (really GW?). A decent unit which is quite tanky in cover, but don't expect them to do much other than grabbing objectives and you won't be disappointed.

- Enhancement: Wayfarer's Grace
A bit on the pricey side, but technically it will not only revive a character on 2+ but essentially means you hand out a token for "free" (or rather, for 25 pts). I put it on my distraction-Champion and it felt like a solid combination. 



Bad:

- Uthar the Destined:
An expensive Khal that gives up Lethal Hits for basically improved close combat stats and resilience? I'm probably missing something but I don't see the point of him at all.

- Grimnyr:
Not gonna lie, I'm not sure when and why I would attach a Gimnyr to a Warrior-squad over a second Khal or even an Iron-Master.
I'd rather have Lethal Hits and a 5++ on my Warriors over +1T and a once-per-game battleshock success. Maybe I'm missing something.

- Cthonian Berserks:
My first reaction: Hella overpriced. My second reaction: Why would I field these guys instead of simply bringing more Hearthguard? Expensive, slow and surprisingly squishy. They hurt against the right target, but have fun making sure they get there. At least they can chill in a Sagitaur.

- Brôkhyr Thunderkyn:

Bump them up to "Meh" if equipped with Grav-Cannons and you play in a vehicle-heavy meta. If you're equpping them with anything else, why not just field Pioneers instead?

- Enhancement: Grim Demeanour:
It's not bad, but I don't see myself ever taking this over Appraising Glare and/or A Long list.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2023/11/08 18:24:17


Post by: em_en_oh_pee


Wise fwom your gwave!

New to Votann, just ordered two of the Christmas boxes and going to flesh it out from there.

The List!
Spoiler:
Leagues of Votann
Strike Force (2000 points)
Oathband


CHARACTERS

Brôkhyr Iron-master (80 points)
• 1x Brôkhyr Iron-master
• 1x Graviton hammer
1x Graviton rifle
• Enhancement: A Long List
• 1x Ironkin Assistant
• 1x Close combat weapon
1x Las-beam cutter
• 1x E-COG
• 1x Plasma torch
• 1x E-COG
• 1x Manipulator arms
• 1x E-COG
• 1x Autoch-pattern bolt pistol
1x Close combat weapon

Einhyr Champion (85 points)
• 1x Autoch-pattern combi-bolter
1x Mass hammer
1x Weavefield Crest
• Enhancement: Wayfarer’s Grace

Kâhl (90 points)
• Warlord
• 1x Forgewrought plasma axe
1x Rampart Crest
1x Volkanite disintegrator
• Enhancement: Appraising Glare


BATTLELINE

Hearthkyn Warriors (110 points)
• 1x Theyn
• 1x Autoch-pattern bolt pistol
1x Close combat weapon
1x Ion blaster
1x Weavefield Crest
• 9x Hearthkyn Warrior
• 9x Autoch-pattern bolt pistol
9x Close combat weapon
1x Comms Array
7x Ion blaster
1x L7 missile launcher
1x Magna-rail rifle
1x Medipack
1x Pan Spectral Scanner

Hearthkyn Warriors (110 points)
• 1x Theyn
• 1x Autoch-pattern bolt pistol
1x Close combat weapon
1x Ion blaster
1x Weavefield Crest
• 9x Hearthkyn Warrior
• 9x Autoch-pattern bolt pistol
9x Close combat weapon
1x Comms Array
7x Ion blaster
1x L7 missile launcher
1x Magna-rail rifle
1x Medipack
1x Pan Spectral Scanner


DEDICATED TRANSPORTS

Sagitaur (100 points)
• 1x Armoured wheels
1x HYLas beam cannon
1x Twin bolt cannon

Sagitaur (100 points)
• 1x Armoured wheels
1x HYLas beam cannon
1x Twin bolt cannon


OTHER DATASHEETS

Brôkhyr Thunderkyn (75 points)
• 3x Brôkhyr Thunderkyn
• 3x Close combat weapon
3x Graviton blast cannon

Brôkhyr Thunderkyn (150 points)
• 6x Brôkhyr Thunderkyn
• 6x Close combat weapon
6x Graviton blast cannon

Einhyr Hearthguard (300 points)
• 1x Hesyr
• 1x Concussion hammer
1x EtaCarn plasma gun
1x Exo-armour grenade launcher
1x Teleport Crest
• 9x Einhyr Hearthguard
• 9x Concussion gauntlet
9x EtaCarn plasma gun
9x Exo-armour grenade launcher

Einhyr Hearthguard (300 points)
• 1x Hesyr
• 1x Concussion hammer
1x Exo-armour grenade launcher
1x Teleport Crest
1x Volkanite disintegrator
• 9x Einhyr Hearthguard
• 9x Concussion gauntlet
9x Exo-armour grenade launcher
9x Volkanite disintegrator

Hekaton Land Fortress (225 points)
• 1x Armoured wheels
1x MATR autocannon
1x Pan Spectral Scanner
1x SP heavy conversion beamer
2x Twin ion beamer

Hernkyn Pioneers (90 points)
• 3x Hernkyn Pioneer
• 3x Bolt revolver
3x Bolt shotgun
1x Comms Array
1x HYLas rotary cannon
3x Magna-coil autocannon
1x Pan Spectral Scanner
3x Plasma knife

Hernkyn Pioneers (90 points)
• 3x Hernkyn Pioneer
• 3x Bolt revolver
3x Bolt shotgun
1x Comms Array
1x HYLas rotary cannon
3x Magna-coil autocannon
1x Pan Spectral Scanner
3x Plasma knife

Hernkyn Pioneers (90 points)
• 3x Hernkyn Pioneer
• 3x Bolt revolver
3x Bolt shotgun
1x Comms Array
1x HYLas rotary cannon
3x Magna-coil autocannon
1x Pan Spectral Scanner
3x Plasma knife


The idea would be to split out the Warriors, putting half in the Sagitaurs to go do mission objectives, while the other half start on my board side and do the same, advancing towards the midfield as needed. I can also toss a squad into a Fortress. Pioneers do what they do - fast mission play and denial. Kahl and Champ lead the bricks - both of Deep Strike. I know the Volkanite doesn't synergize so hot with the Kahl's ability, so I am debating on going double Plasma. Though I hear so many good things about Volkanite. The 3-man Thunders go into one Fortress, to benefit from the Fire Support rule. The others go into Strat Reserve. Iron-master is going to likely go with a Warrior unit, likely the one in/near the empty Fortress.

Thoughts?


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2023/11/09 03:36:18


Post by: ZergSmasher


First thought: let's make a new thread for 10th instead of necro-ing the 9th edition one.

Regarding your list, why not put the Iron-master with the Thunderkyn to give them +1 to hit? Plus he can repair one if it gets damaged, and he provides the unit with some ablative wounds from the E-COGS and Assistant. I suppose Battle-shock becomes a concern, but I would think it's a minor concern.


Leagues of Votann: Squats are back baby! @ 2023/11/09 05:55:23


Post by: em_en_oh_pee


 ZergSmasher wrote:
First thought: let's make a new thread for 10th instead of necro-ing the 9th edition one.

Regarding your list, why not put the Iron-master with the Thunderkyn to give them +1 to hit? Plus he can repair one if it gets damaged, and he provides the unit with some ablative wounds from the E-COGS and Assistant. I suppose Battle-shock becomes a concern, but I would think it's a minor concern.


I thought this was the new one. Wow, tragic no one has made one yet.

Interesting option. I like it. Forgot it's not just vehicles but also healing Exo-frames!

EDIT:
New thread here!