Well... at least in Germany the box set for the League of Votan sold out. Not immediately but at least during the course of the day. Which made me wondering once again what is the underlying reason. I thought about the possible reasons in particular with the discussions over the last few days (and actually months) and would like to see your take on it.
So what do you think is the (main) reason the the box sold out?
NinthMusketeer wrote: Do we have any evidence for any of these or is it pure speculation? (Not that there's anything wrong with that, I'm just curious.)
There is no evidence at all unfortunately as we don't have any numbers how many units have been produced or alloted for sale. But at least the discussion in this thread made me wonder whether the reasons might lie differently this time.
New sculpts for a "new" (old) army, with a drip feed teaser model or two, heavy marketing.... seems like it was a hit.
More people wanted it than they made..... better to aim low & sell out than have huge unsold stockpile.. nothing sinister here, if disappointing for FOMOers or genuine fans
Without even knowing production numbers hard to say. But seeing how busted the army looks to be not even surprised. It will sell well on the power level alone.
And generally GW has habit of selling out on their boxes as is so this one selling out is hardly surprise...GW makes generally sure they don't end up with stock hanging around as that costs them money. Harder to predict here with new faction but again we don't know # GW produced so whether GW was just being cautious or it sold well hard to say.
Nostalgia bait plus people in this hobby having poor impulse control and GW know it. It's the FOMO method used by video game developers for years used on a tabletop wargame.
I'd bet a good chunk of people that bought that box have zero intention of assembling or painting it right away as it gets chucked onto the "pile of shame" (hohoho! Because we have to make a joke about their inability to not buy something), not to be seen for several months, or if at all, just for that sweet dopamine hit.
After a trend of slowly increasing the prices of these army boxes, and the battleboxes too, they actually pushed this one out at £120 which is a significantly better deal than any of these boxes have had in a while. Plus it's a new faction with all brand new models.
They've also been having issues with these big value boxes staying on shelves for longer than they probably intend them to, sort of like an opposite problem from when everything went out of stock immediately. There was definitely a period from Dominion onwards where they seemed to be overproducing boxes which wastes them money and also weirdly can have bad optics in of itself as if people keep seeing "limited" boxes stuck on shelves for months then they start to question the popularity of the product and if the game it represents is dead or not.
At the end of the day I don't think the power level of the box really comes into it. We know that the majority of GW consumers buy stuff based on collecting and while the box has strong units in it, you can't just buy multiple of it and make a truly scary competitive force; you'll need the other releases for that. It's just an objectively good deal and doesn't have any of the caveats or drawbacks other big value army boxes/battle boxes have had recently; it's all new models, there's no useless terrain that you'll never use and it isn't at a ludicrous price.
They've also been having issues with these big value boxes staying on shelves for longer than they probably intend them to, sort of like an opposite problem from when everything went out of stock immediately. There was definitely a period from Dominion onwards where they seemed to be overproducing boxes which wastes them money and also weirdly can have bad optics in of itself as if people keep seeing "limited" boxes stuck on shelves for months then they start to question the popularity of the product and if the game it represents is dead or not.
That's an interesting idea I have not considered... Question would be then: what is the sweet spot to sell out?
They've also been having issues with these big value boxes staying on shelves for longer than they probably intend them to, sort of like an opposite problem from when everything went out of stock immediately. There was definitely a period from Dominion onwards where they seemed to be overproducing boxes which wastes them money and also weirdly can have bad optics in of itself as if people keep seeing "limited" boxes stuck on shelves for months then they start to question the popularity of the product and if the game it represents is dead or not.
That's an interesting idea I have not considered... Question would be then: what is the sweet spot to sell out?
Probably what happened with the Votaan box; an entire weekend.
Obviously regional supply might be different, but it basically took all weekend for the Votaan box to go out of stock amongst various retailers in the UK.
Some boxes since Dominion were just plain bad. The black templar box was the worst in my opinion. Overproduction is if course bad but having a bunch of mad customers who couldn't buy a product is possibly worse.
I didn't buy the box because I'm not interested in another book that never gets used, I do like the squats but I will get s squad later, maybe for Christmas or some other reason. I have noticed that the saving with the new army boxes is rather negligible if there is no interest in the codex and other paper included.
Brickfix wrote: Some boxes since Dominion were just plain bad. The black templar box was the worst in my opinion. Overproduction is if course bad but having a bunch of mad customers who couldn't buy a product is possibly worse.
I didn't buy the box because I'm not interested in another book that never gets used, I do like the squats but I will get s squad later, maybe for Christmas or some other reason. I have noticed that the saving with the new army boxes is rather negligible if there is no interest in the codex and other paper included.
I didn't buy either... I'm not fond on the aesthetics of the pioneers (and in fact the berserkers) so I will hand pick what ever I want. And as you already pointed out the savings diminish significantly when you are not particularly interested in the codex...
New army, no idea how popular it will be. Better produce slightly limited numbers and produce more if popular then fill warehouses full that may never sell.
Yup, all of the above. Everything about this release was handled extremely well. There is a compelling hook for just about every category of player who might have even a fleeting interest in the idea of space dwarves -- casual players, competitive players, hobbyists, lore fans, players brand new to the hobby, older players with nostalgia -- LoV has excellent content for everyone. They did not skimp on quality in any area.
Lord_Valorion wrote: Because the spineless competitve crowd jumped on the next "I win" Button.
Sadly thats not true for many though. I play DE, very glass army, even the tanky units are not that tanky. So I wanted a tanky army for once that is not DG (I hate DG), so I already wanted them before the rules even came out. I'm also playing YMYR (invul saves) to feel better, i will also play Urani time to time too (+1Tough), ingoing GTL all together.
Nowadays GW excel at driving the FOMO with their outstanding marketing and profound understanding of their customer base. Everything being sold out on preorder is a dream every company would like to live.
Cyel wrote: Nowadays GW excel at driving the FOMO with their outstanding marketing and profound understanding of their customer base. Everything being sold out on preorder is a dream every company would like to live.
True... But selling out before the pre-order window closes deems to me that they might have sold even more. Heck... I even might have reconsidered my decision not to buy but taking into consideration that it is not available that decision is not an option any longer. And in comparison I remember that other boxes (--> not necesserally these army debut boxes) sold out in minutes after going online.
Racerguy180 wrote: The minis are ugly as sin so it surprised me that anyone would buy them for their esthetics, so that really leaves just OPness...
Damn you GW, you had a chance to make Squats look like Squats but choked on their own tauness!
"Everyone else's opinion is wrong"
I think GW learned from the Black Templar box and didn't produce as many. I still see that thing floating around at fire sale prices almost a year later. I skipped it because I don't care for most of the minis and I want to see how they do before committing $1,000 and 6 months of my painting schedule to them.
Once it was confirmed limited and there wouldn't be a MTO like Octarius and Black Templars had, the scalpers had an incentive to stack up.
They probably overproduced Dominion, Black Templar, Octarius etc since you could still easily find those boxes a long time after they were removed off the GW webstore. This time they made less.
WAAC crowd saw everyone screaming from the rooftops they were the new hotness and wanted to get on the wagon early.
Togusa wrote: It sold out because people are gullible and will buy things even when they know they shouldn't.
Is there a reason for me to wait?
Seeing as I have the $ now & it's all stuff I'm going to buy anyways.....
It's not about you. You might have the dosh, but a signifiant chunk of other people will not (particularly in these times...) but still feel the need to grab it now due to FOMO tactics and other such predatory practices, like the entire bloody codex being locked behind this box. You can see it everywhere with the "piles of shame" being something of a dubious badge of honour in this hobby, when they should be seen as anything but.
It is new and shiny and about a 40% discount over full price. Even if you don't plan on going all in on Squats it is a reasonable price for lore and a decent amount of minis to build/paint.
Because somewhere, Somebody is Doing It Wrong. Unlike me, a savant who understands that all things GW are gak. Now praise my bold truth-telling, while I continue spewing my venom over every thread on this site.
Considering the heavy marketing that they have put into Squats (basically been an event for the last 6 months or so) I was suprised how muted it was and how slow it was to sell out. I think it being at the end of a run of boxes for enitre game systems (Ghur, Into the Dark and Osgiliath) people may be a little burned out for a faction only box. There certaintly hasn't been the buzz say that there was around the HH box during the summer which got a good run to itself. So maybe a little release congestion.
It was always going to sell out and it is nice to see GW produced a nice middle ground of having a chance to get it even if you couldn't be online at 10 but it still feels limited.
At the end of the day, these "sell outs" always come down to two things. Competitive 40kers, and people who scalp sets to prey on competitive 40kers.
You can't use Covid-shipping excuses any more, so GW should have known these would sell like FIRE. Going off the presumption that GW is at least capable of estimating their fan reactions in predictive sales models, it only really remains that scalping by people looking to force idiots to pay 2-3x what the actual worth of something is, are behind it.
I don’t think “under produced” is a particularly useful option.
First, we’ve no idea whatsoever of the numbers actually produced. The best I can do is a now anecdotal bit from Darksphere, a 3rd Party Retailer, who list 0 available, but “320 expected” on their pre-order.
Screenshot attached was taken just now. And super anecdotally, as I can’t prove it now, I swear it originally advised 400 expected - which we can reasonably take as the number they requested.
It’s also worth keeping in mind unlike very limited items? Whilst it sold through on the day, it wasn’t “blink and you’ll miss it”.
Now I must stress all my info points here can only be treated as anecdotes. Factual anecdotes yes, but anecdotes all the same. Simply put, we can’t know if other TP Retailers sold through a similar allocation, unless that particular TP Retailer lists Expected Stock as Darksphere do. And frankly, I’ve not kept an eye on Darksphere’s Expected Stock for broadly similar releases.
But. It’s still a fair number, not sold direct by GW. We can also reasonably expect every Warhammer Store to get at least one copy on their shelf. At just One Per Store, that’s another 400 copies. But, Not All Stores Are Equal. The bigger the store (in terms of turnover, which can loosely be identified by staffing levels), the greater the allocated stock. We’ll have to check back on Saturday, once we know how many stores of relative sizes are stocking. My former local usually got 2-4 Army Sets, but usually 2. It’s a One Man Store, so if we treat that as the smallest allocation (an assumption), then that’s at least another 800 copies.
So from just Darksphere’s allocation and GW Stores allocations, that’s at least 1,120 copies. Rinse and repeat for all the major online retailers (Element, Goblin Gaming are two I’ve used before), and assume some level of allocation available for all FLGS across the world? We’re easily taking thousands more copies.
Does that sound under produced? I guess that will genuinely depend upon who you ask. And so I refer you, Dear Reader, to my previous point that it wasn’t a Blink And You Missed It sell through. Will be those who missed out? Yep. Always will be with anything limited, but it isn’t feeling like folk didn’t have a chance due to scalper bots etc.
So I’m gonna have to say It’s Just That Popular. Not underproduced, not falling prey to scalpers. Now, the reason for that popularity? A bit of everything. New Hotness. Newstalgia. New Meta. All are equally valid reasons for someone to want a set. And it would take a lot of (ultimately pointless, because it doesn’t change anything) market research, to actually find out.
Togusa wrote: It sold out because people are gullible and will buy things even when they know they shouldn't.
Is there a reason for me to wait?
Seeing as I have the $ now & it's all stuff I'm going to buy anyways.....
It's not about you. You might have the dosh, but a signifiant chunk of other people will not (particularly in these times...) but still feel the need to grab it now due to FOMO tactics and other such predatory practices, like the entire bloody codex being locked behind this box. You can see it everywhere with the "piles of shame" being something of a dubious badge of honour in this hobby, when they should be seen as anything but.
What's it to you if someone mismanages thier budget?
What's it to you how much backlog others have on thier shelves?
Togusa wrote: It sold out because people are gullible and will buy things even when they know they shouldn't.
Or….and stop me if I’m being radical…
It sold out because a bunch of people saw a product they wanted, at a price they found agreeable, and You Not Liking It is no reason for another grown adult not to spend their money as they bloody well please?
Perhaps you’d like to berate me for the roughly £180 I’m spending on Saturday on my sweet new tattoo, despite having only just got my last sweet tattoo, which was around £230 all in, at the end of July?
I mean, give I’m one of those grown adults spending their money as they please, I won’t care what you think, on account it’s my money, and as…..a grown adult, I’ll spend my money as I bloody well please.
I think it was bought by people who like dwarves, or as I call them, dwarf people.
I have this theory for fantasy games such as Warhammer, D&D and WoW.
Some people are elf people, some are dwarf people, some are gnome people, some are ork people, etc.
Some people are wizard people, some are paladin/good guy people, some are blackguard/bad guy people, some are rogue people, etc.
We all have certain preferences and they repeat in game after game after game.
I have a friend who always chooses elves. WoW, D&D, AoS, 40k all elves. He sometimes does not elf but elite, so Stormcast or Custodes, but he is very consistent.
Then I have another friend who always takes the ugly/unusual option, a Troll in WoW, Skaven in AoS, AdMech in 40k.
Third friend is basic human good guy people so hard, I've never seen someone collect so many chapters of Space Marines. He did once branch out, but it was to Imperial Guard!
I'm a combination of wizard people and bad guy people. Thousand Sons, Wizard (what else) in D&D, Shaman in WoW.
It is a limited edition launch box for a new faction. Of course it sold out. GW produced as many as their production and supply chain allowed and will surely shift to releasing the Codex, Combat Patrol and individual unit boxes in the next few months. There was therefore no need to go overboard with production quantity.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: At the end of the day, these "sell outs" always come down to two things. Competitive 40kers, and people who scalp sets to prey on competitive 40kers.
You can't use Covid-shipping excuses any more, so GW should have known these would sell like FIRE. Going off the presumption that GW is at least capable of estimating their fan reactions in predictive sales models, it only really remains that scalping by people looking to force idiots to pay 2-3x what the actual worth of something is, are behind it.
There's really no indication scalpers got to it massively.
I've yet to see any people grumbling about not being able to get one.
Togusa wrote: It sold out because people are gullible and will buy things even when they know they shouldn't.
Is there a reason for me to wait?
Seeing as I have the $ now & it's all stuff I'm going to buy anyways.....
It's not about you. You might have the dosh, but a signifiant chunk of other people will not (particularly in these times...) but still feel the need to grab it now due to FOMO tactics and other such predatory practices, like the entire bloody codex being locked behind this box. You can see it everywhere with the "piles of shame" being something of a dubious badge of honour in this hobby, when they should be seen as anything but.
The 'dex being locked behind this box - for now - isn't really an issue when no other items for the faction are being released at this time. It is entirely different to the SOB or Ork boxes, where people had existing armies that their new rules were restricted to a LE box, which I would agree was an issue.
It isn't like you'll be able to buy a Hekaton, or a unit of Berserks, or a unit of Thunderers before the 'dex is released on its own, after all.
tauist wrote: From what I saw in the WH+ batrep, they way OP so eh
Well you could see that from just quick reading of rules.
You can bet the tournament try hards are already planning to get lov army painted ASAP to win tournaments. Doesn't even matter if it gets nerfed within month. That's the time they have to win tournaments and that's all that matters. Once it gets nerfed they just buy the new best army instead. And GW keeps cashing in laughing as their marketing strategy works as intended.
These threads tend to just bring out conspiracies from people.
1. This is not the first time a product sells out more than anyone expected. Surprisingly enough this is not the only company or market that this happens too.
2. You can't expect GW to hold onto a stock of limited run boxes for the next 20 years for when someone who really wants to buy it then.
3. The WAAC crowd is very likely smaller than some people suggest here. The box also doesn't have some of the more stronger things from the codex.
4. I also doubt scalpers are going to hold onto this box. It's not like this will be the only squat stuff released ever and we'll seen a full release in a month or so.
Togusa wrote: It sold out because people are gullible and will buy things even when they know they shouldn't.
Is there a reason for me to wait?
Seeing as I have the $ now & it's all stuff I'm going to buy anyways.....
It's not about you. You might have the dosh, but a signifiant chunk of other people will not (particularly in these times...) but still feel the need to grab it now due to FOMO tactics and other such predatory practices, like the entire bloody codex being locked behind this box. You can see it everywhere with the "piles of shame" being something of a dubious badge of honour in this hobby, when they should be seen as anything but.
The 'dex being locked behind this box - for now - isn't really an issue when no other items for the faction are being released at this time. It is entirely different to the SOB or Ork boxes, where people had existing armies that their new rules were restricted to a LE box, which I would agree was an issue.
It isn't like you'll be able to buy a Hekaton, or a unit of Berserks, or a unit of Thunderers before the 'dex is released on its own, after all.
Pretty much this. This box is more like an early access entry into Warhammer 40.000 Crusade at best.
Arbitrator wrote: They could have the worst rules ever written and I suspect the W+ batrep would ensure they won every game.
Yea I wouldn't put much faith into those batreps considering how many times in the past they've even gotten rules wrong. It's just "hey look what this army has and look what it can do". It's not about a good player using a tuned list trying to win.
In my opinion, it's hard to beat the combination of nostalgia for something previously unavailable and something truly new-and-shiny for folks.
I've got zero interest in this iteration of Space Dwarves that seem to have no connection at all to my beloved Squats, but also have no problem at all seeing why lots of folks would feel differently and snatch this set up.
Votann are getting banned from most tournaments in Germany. If you are planning to attend a tournament in Germany with Votann, check with your TO's, if Votann are allowed. Most likely they are not.
The codex has been tested thoroughly the last 6 weeks and it needs a nerf. More information is available on the Target Priority Discord.
I've seen this message (thread) on reddit/competitive).
So ''Germany squats Squats''.
Makes all buyers of the starter set in Germany a bit frustrated.
a_typical_hero wrote: We can have the same discussion the other way: Why didn't they sell out?
Well, because they're an insult to Squat players of course! I mean, seriously, who would have'em?
They aren't the Squats I've been waiting for, true.
But as their own thing? I like enough of the models I've seen. And over time more models will likely come along.
So there's room in my collection for another force.
They just won't share the same line as Squats when I list all the armies I have.
I'd hoped it'd be:
*Squats/Votaan
Instead it'll be:
*Squats
*Votaan
People really like the new design
Nostalgia... Finally some Squats in 40K again
It's new and shiny... What else do we need?
I do not believe the competitive 40k scene (ie, the multiple tourney going, "in it to win it" element), visible though it is, is able to generate more sales than the much larger casual scene can, and a mix of "shiney" and "Nostalgia" would be driving those sales.
not denying the existence of meta chasers buying the Hot New Thing, or that these guys seem rather powerful, mind. Im just not convinced the total 40k sales trends of any new army are driven by those meta chasers.
People being keen coz its new and shiny
People buying to make a profit on selling individual bits and units
GW not taking the risk of over production and being left with naff stock (although literary anyone could have told them this would sell out)
Because GW markets the crap out of every new boxed set. When my YT, Twitter and Insta feeds are choked with content from creators that were sent free models/sets, it becomes obvious why they dominate the market.
I mean, I saw at least three different schemes for the squats days before release, and I can’t even count how many HH boxed sets I saw.
If GW knows how to do anything, it’s market their products.
And the modern day way to market a niche product is to pass it out to content creators and influencers. I don’t see enough of this from other companies.
I've seen this message (thread) on reddit/competitive).
So ''Germany squats Squats''.
Makes all buyers of the starter set in Germany a bit frustrated.
They should be frustrated with GW.
Makes no sense, other more powerful and more meta impacting armies came to 9th ed and there was never a reaction like that, especialy not from tournament orgenisers. The "problem" LoV players have is not a problem with GW. It is people being donkey-caves, and not carrying about factions they do not play. But hey, I am the one who lives in a post apocalyptic hellhole right? Guess how many tournament orgs want to ban the use of any army here or how popular is the notion of not playing against people with a specific army?
I've seen this message (thread) on reddit/competitive).
So ''Germany squats Squats''.
Makes all buyers of the starter set in Germany a bit frustrated.
They should be frustrated with GW.
Why? GW hasn't banned anything out of fear of a challenge.
GW made rules that were objectively worth banning.
Tournament gameplay should be fair. Votann make the game unfair. Wanting your opponent in a game to have an unfair advantage shows a lack of self-respect, not courage.
I've seen this message (thread) on reddit/competitive).
So ''Germany squats Squats''.
Makes all buyers of the starter set in Germany a bit frustrated.
They should be frustrated with GW.
Makes no sense, other more powerful and more meta impacting armies came to 9th ed and there was never a reaction like that, especialy not from tournament orgenisers. The "problem" LoV players have is not a problem with GW. It is people being donkey-caves, and not carrying about factions they do not play. But hey, I am the one who lives in a post apocalyptic hellhole right? Guess how many tournament orgs want to ban the use of any army here or how popular is the notion of not playing against people with a specific army?
No. The math for Votann indicates they're worse than these supposedly more powerful codexes.
Now is a great time to start banning problem codexes. I hope the practice continues.
It's not being an donkey-cave to want a fair game; it's instead being an donkey-cave to want an unfair advantage.
I've seen this message (thread) on reddit/competitive).
So ''Germany squats Squats''.
Makes all buyers of the starter set in Germany a bit frustrated.
They should be frustrated with GW.
Makes no sense, other more powerful and more meta impacting armies came to 9th ed and there was never a reaction like that, especialy not from tournament orgenisers. The "problem" LoV players have is not a problem with GW. It is people being donkey-caves, and not carrying about factions they do not play. But hey, I am the one who lives in a post apocalyptic hellhole right? Guess how many tournament orgs want to ban the use of any army here or how popular is the notion of not playing against people with a specific army?
So the entire competitive side of 40k is just supposed to give everyone a pass and assume that no one is a donkey cave? (BTW that has to be the dumbest term ever created, what ever happened to simple terms like unsportsmanlike player, or "That guy") 40k as a competitive hobby is modeled (Heh) around the simple idea that a skilled player will always have a better game than an unskilled player. Now the "balance" of certain codecies throw that out the window obviously. The BEST player in the world with current rules and a full 2k Knights List, isn't going to beat a less skilled player with 2k LoV, no matter how many times you run it. LoV, has literally broken the game in their current form as shown. It will result in players being shunned, ala Tau of 6-7th or GK . No one wanted to play a competitive game against someone who was essentially using the balance equivalent of weighted dice. OR cheating.
It's a "new" faction, of course it will draw attention and buyers. The fact that it apparently is very strong will just make people even more inclined to buy them, then add some nostalgia and voila.
Voted "It's new and shiny... What else do we need" but there are several reasons for their popularity.
Catulle wrote: Because somewhere, Somebody is Doing It Wrong. Unlike me, a savant who understands that all things GW are gak. Now praise my bold truth-telling, while I continue spewing my venom over every thread on this site.
- A Very Edgy Dakkanaut, probably
Because somewhere, Somebody is Complaining About GW. Unlike me, a savant who understands that all things GW are perfect in all regards always. Now praise my bold truth-telling, while I continue spewing my venom over every thread on this site.
Catulle wrote: Because somewhere, Somebody is Doing It Wrong. Unlike me, a savant who understands that all things GW are gak. Now praise my bold truth-telling, while I continue spewing my venom over every thread on this site.
- A Very Edgy Dakkanaut, probably
Because somewhere, Somebody is Complaining About GW. Unlike me, a savant who understands that all things GW are perfect in all regards always. Now praise my bold truth-telling, while I continue spewing my venom over every thread on this site.
SKR.HH wrote: Well... at least in Germany the box set for the League of Votan sold out. Not immediately but at least during the course of the day. Which made me wondering once again what is the underlying reason. I thought about the possible reasons in particular with the discussions over the last few days (and actually months) and would like to see your take on it.
So what do you think is the (main) reason the the box sold out?
(Goes without saying: please stay civil)
Because GW played the community like a fiddle. They generated a controversy, promised "OP" units and quickly pretended to listen to fan feedback and nerf the models. Their only mistake was how quick and thorough the last part was - almost like it was planned.
I mean perhaps this was all inadvertent, but clever marketing either way and likely to be memorized for future releases. I really just wanted to play against an OP faction because I get so bored without an actual challenge. Oh my First World problems....
SKR.HH wrote: Well... at least in Germany the box set for the League of Votan sold out. Not immediately but at least during the course of the day. Which made me wondering once again what is the underlying reason. I thought about the possible reasons in particular with the discussions over the last few days (and actually months) and would like to see your take on it.
So what do you think is the (main) reason the the box sold out?
(Goes without saying: please stay civil)
Because GW played the community like a fiddle. They generated a controversy, promised "OP" units and quickly pretended to listen to fan feedback and nerf the models. Their only mistake was how quick and thorough the last part was - almost like it was planned.
I mean perhaps this was all inadvertent, but clever marketing either way and likely to be memorized for future releases. I really just wanted to play against an OP faction because I get so bored without an actual challenge. Oh my First World problems....
Then just let your LoV opponent use their original codex, with none of the errata added today. Just because the errata exists, it doesn't mean that you have to use it.
SKR.HH wrote: Well... at least in Germany the box set for the League of Votan sold out. Not immediately but at least during the course of the day. Which made me wondering once again what is the underlying reason. I thought about the possible reasons in particular with the discussions over the last few days (and actually months) and would like to see your take on it.
So what do you think is the (main) reason the the box sold out?
(Goes without saying: please stay civil)
Because GW played the community like a fiddle. They generated a controversy, promised "OP" units and quickly pretended to listen to fan feedback and nerf the models. Their only mistake was how quick and thorough the last part was - almost like it was planned.
I mean perhaps this was all inadvertent, but clever marketing either way and likely to be memorized for future releases. I really just wanted to play against an OP faction because I get so bored without an actual challenge. Oh my First World problems....
Then just let your LoV opponent use their original codex, with none of the errata added today. Just because the errata exists, it doesn't mean that you have to use it.
It's not the same. It's more fun when everyone else is tossing their hands up and whining in a panic and you just casually walk in and solve a problem that had them stumped and do so easily. Now that GW has solved the problem for them, it's kind of pointless. Lackluster at the very least.
TBH I was hoping to see people actually try to solve the problem in creative ways instead of just running to the authorities. I've seen it in other strategy games where a tactic or unit is considered OP and people come up with counters to the point where the once "OP" strategy is considered under-powered. This even happens in real conflict like WW2 where the Blitz was considered unbeatable at the start only to become folly as the Soviets countered adeptly with defense in depth tactics. Actual strategic thinking from actual strategic minded players. Alas, I guess I just have to be content with what other player's I do have to work with.
SKR.HH wrote: Well... at least in Germany the box set for the League of Votan sold out. Not immediately but at least during the course of the day. Which made me wondering once again what is the underlying reason. I thought about the possible reasons in particular with the discussions over the last few days (and actually months) and would like to see your take on it.
So what do you think is the (main) reason the the box sold out?
(Goes without saying: please stay civil)
Because GW played the community like a fiddle. They generated a controversy, promised "OP" units and quickly pretended to listen to fan feedback and nerf the models. Their only mistake was how quick and thorough the last part was - almost like it was planned.
I mean perhaps this was all inadvertent, but clever marketing either way and likely to be memorized for future releases. I really just wanted to play against an OP faction because I get so bored without an actual challenge. Oh my First World problems....
Then just let your LoV opponent use their original codex, with none of the errata added today. Just because the errata exists, it doesn't mean that you have to use it.
It's not the same. It's more fun when everyone else is tossing their hands up and whining in a panic and you just casually walk in and solve a problem that had them stumped and do so easily. Now that GW has solved the problem for them, it's kind of pointless. Lackluster at the very least.
TBH I was hoping to see people actually try to solve the problem in creative ways instead of just running to the authorities. I've seen it in other strategy games where a tactic or unit is considered OP and people come up with counters to the point where the once "OP" strategy is considered under-powered. This even happens in real conflict like WW2 where the Blitz was considered unbeatable at the start only to become folly as the Soviets countered adeptly with defense in depth tactics. Actual strategic thinking from actual strategic minded players. Alas, I guess I just have to be content with what other player's I do have to work with.
It's not pointless at all.
You get to demonstrate to others that you can solve the problem via real solutions, not by throwing a tantrum like a child.
TBH I was hoping to see people actually try to solve the problem in creative ways instead of just running to the authorities. I've seen it in other strategy games where a tactic or unit is considered OP and people come up with counters to the point where the once "OP" strategy is considered under-powered. This even happens in real conflict like WW2 where the Blitz was considered unbeatable at the start only to become folly as the Soviets countered adeptly with defense in depth tactics. Actual strategic thinking from actual strategic minded players. Alas, I guess I just have to be content with what other player's I do have to work with.
Actually you haven't "solved the problem," you'd just be playing against inferior opposition.
TBH I was hoping to see people actually try to solve the problem in creative ways instead of just running to the authorities. I've seen it in other strategy games where a tactic or unit is considered OP and people come up with counters to the point where the once "OP" strategy is considered under-powered. This even happens in real conflict like WW2 where the Blitz was considered unbeatable at the start only to become folly as the Soviets countered adeptly with defense in depth tactics. Actual strategic thinking from actual strategic minded players. Alas, I guess I just have to be content with what other player's I do have to work with.
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Actually you haven't "solved the problem," you'd just be playing against inferior opposition.
1)Please explain how figuring out how to play against a full strength codex is not problemopponent.
2) Winning the game does not mean you've played an inferior opponant.
If your opponent has a massive unearned rules advantage, like with Votann, and you still beat them, they were either stupid or high.
Very nice argument there, because OP armies have never suffered defeat in the past right?
I guess randomness in a game of dice and cards (if you play Tempest) is a factor we can simply ignore.
TBH I was hoping to see people actually try to solve the problem in creative ways instead of just running to the authorities. I've seen it in other strategy games where a tactic or unit is considered OP and people come up with counters to the point where the once "OP" strategy is considered under-powered. This even happens in real conflict like WW2 where the Blitz was considered unbeatable at the start only to become folly as the Soviets countered adeptly with defense in depth tactics. Actual strategic thinking from actual strategic minded players. Alas, I guess I just have to be content with what other player's I do have to work with.
Real life war is a bit different with its logistics. Neither the Soviets, Allies or the Axis ever agreed upon fighting war with only 2000 points of units.
The problem with the Votann is that if you build to counter them you don't build to counter anything else so in the end you'd have an army to fight Votann only and lose against others. Plus the entire army was tweaked so it is not about countering a tactic or a unit, but an entire army.
People also forget that the problem was not that top armies were having issues with Votann, but that Votann had the potential of becoming a gatekeeping army for elite armies. Want to play Death Guard? Sucks to be you because those judgment tokens wounding on 6s means the price you pay for that extra toughness means nothing. You want to play Knights? Sucks to be you, because Votann is going to melt your Knights rather quickly.
I think there is also a need to point out that Warhammer is not Dark Souls or Nioh. This is not a game where we play against the computer and try to find the optimal way to do so. In this game you build an army(assemble, paint, base) and try to enjoy it with a lot of random people who are not AI super computers from the dark age of man.
Personally I am just interested in seeing how Votann fare after the nerfs. GW does tend to overnerf more than anything else.
MinscS2 wrote: Very nice argument there, because OP armies have never suffered defeat in the past right?
I guess randomness in a game of dice and cards (if you play Tempest) is a factor we can simply ignore.
So you're saying that it's good if the only way you can beat Votann is to get extremely lucky, no matter what you do tactically? Sounds like a gak game.
This is kinda the difference between Custodes at 9th codex launch, and Custodes post nerf. We can still play well and finish high in standings, but it's no longer silly town charging first turn and unleashing Melta missiles in your face. Or Trajann with the worst points overlook in history.
MinscS2 wrote: Very nice argument there, because OP armies have never suffered defeat in the past right?
I guess randomness in a game of dice and cards (if you play Tempest) is a factor we can simply ignore.
So you're saying that it's good if the only way you can beat Votann is to get extremely lucky, no matter what you do tactically? Sounds like a gak game.
I don't need anything more than the average amount of luck that comes in a D6 based game to have a decent chance vs pre-nerf Votann.
Nor do I need my opponent to be stupid/drunk/high (infact I don't play with those people).
