True and false. It depends on the scenario, the writer, and if it's propaganda or not. I tend to go with "Lasguns have a very hard time penetrating Power Armor, but Anti Vehicle/Anti Marine weapons tend to get through, and Anti Tank splatters them." So a Guardsman with a Plasma Gun wins if he gets a good hit. But 100 Guardsmen can lose if their resolve breaks, due to seeing their friends explode from Bolter shots as most of their Lasguns basically bounce off.
Personally, though, I'd put my bet at about 20 to 50 Guardsmen per Marine depending on the quality of either force. Maybe 100 if the Marine is hyper qualified and is in extremely favorable situations.
Yes and no. Not in a straight fight, but because if you have a company versus a million guard, most of those million will never get to fight: the marines will drop on army command posts, ammo dumps, bridges and the like and cripple and decapitate the army rather than fighting it fairly.
In a straight up fight, equally don't forget that a space marine only carries about 100 bolt shells and half a dozen or so grenades in their standard load out. Taking out a regiment with just a combat knife is a big ask.
As with all things it depends on the setting and rules of engagement.
A single guardsman with a plasmagun or meltagun can happily kill a marine if they hit him.
100 guardsmen with knives fighting a single marine with a knife in a pit could likely bring him down with just psysical weight of numbers.
1000 guardsmen in a row in a corridor would likely all die to that same marine.
Its all about context.
I think the quote about is more about 1 marine being worth the same as 10000 guardsmen - they are an elite resource that can accomplish things that many normal troops cannot.
As others said it's about context and Marines, by virtue of strike cruisers and battle barges and drop pods and drop ships, get to decide where and when to fight.
100 marines vs Nazi Germany would not have to storm the beaches of Normandy and fight their way across France, Belgium and Germany. They would locate Hitler and other leaders, drop on them in the dead of night and kill them.
And then go up to orbit and do it again and again until German surrenders or is unable to fight.
I like the idea of one marine vs 10,000 humans in a knife fight in a narrow corridor. Yeah that one I could believe.
In fluff a Marine is (almost) Wolverine, with Captain America's skills, in Iron Man's Armor carrying Thor's Hammer.
On that tabletop, not quite, mostly because GW would like to sell more than 1 marine per player.
In a Zone Mortalis or similar cramped environs, such as boarding actions? Yeah. Quite possibly - because at no point is it going to be All On One All At Once.
Sure, the Marine won’t be carrying anything like enough ammo to shoot them all. But…being Astartes they really don’t have to. Their speed, skill, strength and combat blade will get much of the job done. And if you’ve set up kill zones with heavy weapons on tripods? There’s….really very little preventing the Astartes using those very weapons against you, because they’re strong and skilled enough to carry one, and fire from the hip.
Always keep in mind that there is a gulf between injuring an Astartes, incapacitating an Astartes, and killing an Astartes.
Plus…how many of their comrades exploding into bloody mist do you think it’d be before the remaining troopers are Brown Trouser O’Clock and thus become gibbering wrecks as the seemingly invincible walking tank draws ever nearer?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Plus…how many of their comrades exploding into bloody mist do you think it’d be before the remaining troopers are Brown Trouser O’Clock and thus become gibbering wrecks as the seemingly invincible walking tank draws ever nearer?
That was a point made in some of the HH books. Marines use explosive high calibre ammo (even if they maybe don't need to) and chainswords. So your mate standing next to you doesn't just "die" by your side, you and your squad are splattered with the remnants of him.
The real question is if 10,000 space marines can beat one guardsman, and the answer in most cases is no. Maybe a Cadian conscript would go down, but a Krieg or Catachan veteran? Or, god help them, Marbo? RIP marines.
Maybe if all those Guardsmen are unarmed and lining up in a hallway to be punched to death one by one, or if the marine is sat in a control room with a button that bombs the daylights out of said Guardsmen.
There's plenty of stories where Guardsmen or cultists or even primitive natives best marines.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Plus…how many of their comrades exploding into bloody mist do you think it’d be before the remaining troopers are Brown Trouser O’Clock and thus become gibbering wrecks as the seemingly invincible walking tank draws ever nearer?
That was a point made in some of the HH books. Marines use explosive high calibre ammo (even if they maybe don't need to) and chainswords. So your mate standing next to you doesn't just "die" by your side, you and your squad are splattered with the remnants of him.
Also reflected in the originally intended Standard Issue weapon of choice, the Volkite Range. So nasty, your mate burns alive, explodes into ash, and then more of your mates break Rule 0 (don’t be on fire), shortly before breaking Rule 1 (don’t get ded).
TheBestBucketHead wrote: True and false. It depends on the scenario, the writer, and if it's propaganda or not. I tend to go with "Lasguns have a very hard time penetrating Power Armor, but Anti Vehicle/Anti Marine weapons tend to get through, and Anti Tank splatters them." So a Guardsman with a Plasma Gun wins if he gets a good hit. But 100 Guardsmen can lose if their resolve breaks, due to seeing their friends explode from Bolter shots as most of their Lasguns basically bounce off.
Personally, though, I'd put my bet at about 20 to 50 Guardsmen per Marine depending on the quality of either force. Maybe 100 if the Marine is hyper qualified and is in extremely favorable situations.
Tyfus deep struck on to a full regiment of Cadians. Alone with no men, tank or demon support and killed every guardsmen, all the officers. And it was a full strenght Cadian regiment with its own tank sections artilery etc
Afrodactyl wrote: Maybe if all those Guardsmen are unarmed and lining up in a hallway to be punched to death one by one, or if the marine is sat in a control room with a button that bombs the daylights out of said Guardsmen.
There's plenty of stories where Guardsmen or cultists or even primitive natives best marines.
Yeah but what you don't know is the marine had already killed 9999 norms before that. Once their Kill Kounter reaches 10,000 the armor becomes tissue paper.
GW/Black Library Writers failed History class...horrifically, they also failed Math, but luckily their straight A's in Literature and creative writing carried them through public education.
3rd War for Armageddon, the largest battle since the Horus Heresy (Fluff). What were the forces involved? Imperial Guard brought about 1.5 Million and the Marines had 50,000.
In WW1, the allied forces along the Western Front had more than 15 MILLION men. The US alone contributed 2.1 Million troops to the Western Front.
GW/Black Library Writers failed History class...horrifically, they also failed Math, but luckily their straight A's in Literature and creative writing carried them through public education.
3rd War for Armageddon, the largest battle since the Horus Heresy (Fluff). What were the forces involved? Imperial Guard brought about 1.5 Million and the Marines had 50,000.
In WW1, the allied forces along the Western Front had more than 15 MILLION men. The US alone contributed 2.1 Million troops to the Western Front.
So again, GW sucks at history and math
What's funny is that those marines represent 5% of the total marine population in the imperium. 1 in every 20 marines was present at that war
SemperMortis wrote: If you are a Bolter Porn aficionado? Yes
If you have any kind of common sense? No
If you base it on the game play? No
GW/Black Library Writers failed History class...horrifically, they also failed Math, but luckily their straight A's in Literature and creative writing carried them through public education.
3rd War for Armageddon, the largest battle since the Horus Heresy (Fluff). What were the forces involved? Imperial Guard brought about 1.5 Million and the Marines had 50,000.
In WW1, the allied forces along the Western Front had more than 15 MILLION men. The US alone contributed 2.1 Million troops to the Western Front.
So again, GW sucks at history and math
What's funny is that those marines represent 5% of the total marine population in the imperium. 1 in every 20 marines was present at that war
The other Math failure for GW is that there are 1,000 SM Chapters, which means there are roughly 1 Million Space Marines in existence. Put that in perspective, the Imperium has 1 Million Worlds, that does not include moons, space stations or space ships, just inhabited worlds. Assuming Modern Earth is roughly average, that means there are roughly 7.7 Quadrillion Humans. The math basically works out to 1 Marine per 7.7 Billion people.
On the flipside of stupid, apparently the Imperial Guard has 500 Trillion service members, that doesn't include the Navy, Sisters of battle or anything else. that also means that there is 1 Guardsmen per 14 people In the US the US Army/Marines are about 2x bigger than the US Navy and airforce, assuming that holds true that means there are 1 Quadrillion members of the Imperial Guard/Navy. So about 1/8th of humanity is fighting...btw, that doesn't include PDF
GW will one day standardize things but until then I'll keep making fun of things like this
Maugan Ra, after all, held an entire planet against a tendril of Hive Fleet Leviathan on his own, lonesome. Solo.
in defense of Ra, sentient armor with combat experience longer than the human race has existed inate psychic abilities and literal reality bending tech built into the suit. Ra is one of the biggets badasses in universe from a holy gak they did what (also in running for an authors favorite character so they get plenty of mary sue moments) The pheonix lords should be larger than life and primarch tier on the battlefield imo (with points to match)
On the OP extremely unlikely. those people who would argue that a marine could take 1k guardsmen with just a chainsword or thier fists are the people whose lore knowledge only contains the space marine video game and they insist 1 marine could take 10k ork boyz barehanded. It is said throughout the books by smart marines that a single lasgun represents very little threat to a space marine, but dozens can hurt them and even kill them. a single plasma or melta gun in the squad could take care of the problem. A commissar or squad leader with a plasma pistol and judicious accuracy could also pull it off solo if they had the gumption and training (Also prayers to the emperor and some level of luck)
Afrodactyl wrote: Maybe if all those Guardsmen are unarmed and lining up in a hallway to be punched to death one by one, or if the marine is sat in a control room with a button that bombs the daylights out of said Guardsmen.
There's plenty of stories where Guardsmen or cultists or even primitive natives best marines.
Yeah but what you don't know is the marine had already killed 9999 norms before that. Once their Kill Kounter reaches 10,000 the armor becomes tissue paper.
They hit their predetermined kill limit and shut down, as any good killbot should.
If it is a marine who specializes in guerilla warfare like the Raven Guard then I could see it. Avoiding direct combat, taking out supply lines and commanders, just generally making a nuisance of themselves over a prolonged period of time.
If it is just standard marines and it was a melee fight? Honestly I could still see it. The guard are brave, but they can break and flee, and after seeing several dozen people in a few seconds being torn to pieces by a chainsword by a hulking brute who moves much faster than you do how long will they really want to commit? A Marine is unironically stronger than a rampaging elephant, is more skilled than almost every guardsman alive, and in heavy enough armour even marines can have trouble penetrating it with superior melee weapons. Melee is the Marines' game, so I could see it. Especially with smart use of the terrain to force them to fight him in small groups at once. Obviously mix in some melee specialists like Bullgryn or make it a bulky melee chapter like Catachans and it could be quite different.
In a gunfight or more direct and standard engagement? The Marine loses. To quote a Chaos Marine:
"The Legionnaire that scoffs at a lasgun has not charged across an open field against a hundred of them."
— Maor the Scarred, Siege-Champion of the Scargivers, Warhammer 40,000: Black Crusade
The Marine will run out of ammo first, and will be forced to try to engage in melee if he ever survives that long. And even when armed only with lasguns he will be brought down.
Now, make it a Marine hero like Calgar or whatever? Then he just wins. Straight out. Cry all you want but Marine heroes and the big badasses of other armies as well like Ghaz or whatever regularly crush entire armies and fight thousands of opponents directly and win.
40k is not a military sci-fi world ala Starship Troopers. It is in fact a heroic fantasy setting (just in space) more akin to the Iliad and just like it features incredibly powerful protagonists who can rout entire armies through strength of arms.
If it is a marine who specializes in guerilla warfare like the Raven Guard then I could see it. Avoiding direct combat, taking out supply lines and commanders, just generally making a nuisance of themselves over a prolonged period of time.
If it is just standard marines and it was a melee fight? Honestly I could still see it. The guard are brave, but they can break and flee, and after seeing several dozen people in a few seconds being torn to pieces by a chainsword by a hulking brute who moves much faster than you do how long will they really want to commit? A Marine is unironically stronger than a rampaging elephant, is more skilled than almost every guardsman alive, and in heavy enough armour even marines can have trouble penetrating it with superior melee weapons. Melee is the Marines' game, so I could see it. Especially with smart use of the terrain to force them to fight him in small groups at once. Obviously mix in some melee specialists like Bullgryn or make it a bulky melee chapter like Catachans and it could be quite different.
In a gunfight or more direct and standard engagement? The Marine loses. To quote a Chaos Marine:
"The Legionnaire that scoffs at a lasgun has not charged across an open field against a hundred of them."
— Maor the Scarred, Siege-Champion of the Scargivers, Warhammer 40,000: Black Crusade
The Marine will run out of ammo first, and will be forced to try to engage in melee if he ever survives that long. And even when armed only with lasguns he will be brought down.
Now, make it a Marine hero like Calgar or whatever? Then he just wins. Straight out. Cry all you want but Marine heroes and the big badasses of other armies as well like Ghaz or whatever regularly crush entire armies and fight thousands of opponents directly and win.
40k is not a military sci-fi world ala Starship Troopers. It is in fact a heroic fantasy setting (just in space) more akin to the Iliad and just like it features incredibly powerful protagonists who can rout entire armies through strength of arms.
I don't know. Just like on TT it doesn't even seem like a Marine can take down 5 Guardsmen tbh and if we go by lore there are Guardsmen who have easily proven themselves equal to or better then Astartes.
You know The Viper and The Mountain? That, but without the effort, even without Power Armour.
Even a casual backhander is going to stove in ribs or shatter a face - whether or not you’re wearing body armour. If they do martial arts style grabs and blocks? Compound fractures for you, my friend. And count yourself blessed if they don’t just keep twisting your arm.
With the Power Armour, how long until the stories of squaddies being torn limb from limb break all fighting spirit? Is that distant banging just part of the background noise, or the killer battering their way through the security door?
Marines are hyper violent to a truly ludicrous degree. Their sheer weight and bulk (which remember fact fans, doesn’t slow them one iota) means they can body slam standard humans with a near invariably fatal impact.
You don’t just die. You Die Nasty. Shattered in body, any survivors of that assault shattered in soul.
And whilst the scale difference might make it look comical, they’re perfectly capable of using any weapon you bring against them against you.
Trans Human Dread.
Transhuman dread. Aximand had heard iterators talk of the condition. He’d heard descriptions of it from regular Army officers too. The sight of an Adeptus Astartes was one thing: taller and broader than a man could ever be, armoured like a demigod. The singularity of purpose was self-evident. An Adeptus Astartes was designed to fight and kill anything that didn’t annihilate it first. If you saw an Adeptus Astartes, you knew you were in trouble. The appearance alone cowed you with fear.
But to see one move. Apparently that was the real thing. Nothing human-shaped should be so fast, so lithe, so powerful, especially not anything in excess of two metres tall and carrying more armour than four normal men could lift. The sight of an Adeptus Astartes was one thing, but the moving fact of one was quite another. The psychologists called it transhuman dread. It froze a man, stuck him to the ground, caused his mind to lock up, made him lose control of bladder and bowel. Something huge and warlike gave pause: something huge and warlike and moving with the speed of a striking snake, that was when you knew that gods moved amongst men, and that there existed a scale of strength and speed beyond anything mortal, and that you were about to die and, if you were really lucking, there might be just enough time to piss yourself first.
Astartes aren’t warrior monks. They’re not warriors. They’re not soldiers. They’re Killing Machines. Stronger. Faster. Tougher. Enduring.
Even if you run, you’ll run out of puff long, long before the Marine does. And they can run faster than you to boot.
That would terrify a human. Remember we got where we are by Persistence Hunting. Prey animals were faster, stronger, better equipped. But we were relentless. Catching up to the before their body and metabolism had recovered. Rinse and repeat, and you end up with a Prey Animal too exhausted to defend itself.
It’s kind of the same thing as the Horror Cliche of the relentless killer, such as Jason Voorhees - expect running after you faster than Usain Bolt headed to the cludgey after 12 pints of Nukey Broon and a Prawn Vindaloo.
That’s all entirely by design. That is their sole purpose. The human mind simply cannot truly comprehend what such a being is capable of - even if you witness it. It’s just completely off the charts.
Asenion wrote: I don't know. Just like on TT it doesn't even seem like a Marine can take down 5 Guardsmen tbh and if we go by lore there are Guardsmen who have easily proven themselves equal to or better then Astartes.
The game doesn't emulate the background perfectly because if it did then Tyranid players would have unlimited points for every battle and 10 Tactical Marines would be able to hold off a thousand Orks. Accepting that you are playing a representation of the 40k background and not a perfect replication means you won't spend eternity asking yourself questions about why X story doesn't align with Y game thing.
As for the second part, just because some Guard characters (lower case for the term not upper case for the unit type) have done X doesn't mean all Guardsmen can do X.
Here to parrot what others have already said about who the Author is, and what side their on. I mean, 1 marine took down an entire coven of Dark Eldar, in a prepared ambush, with a knife and a bolter, in Abnett's book about the Snakes of Ithaca. Surely one dark Eldar is worth 5-10 Guardsmen?
Space Marines aren't machines or gods. One Guardsman with a decent gun can kill anywhere from one to all of them depending on the ammo, conditions, and luck. Lasguns even have a chance to penetrate their armor. I'm going to assume, for the sake of argument, that we're not giving the guardsmen artillery, tanks, or particularly anti marine firepower. We'll even say that they'll run away once they reach 5% casualties. The Guardsmen win. That's 500 Guardsmen the Marine has to kill. While at least hundreds are firing on one Marine at a time. Make it 10 Marines and give Guardsmen artillery and anti Marine weapons, and the Guardsmen win. Make it 100 Marines against the same number of Guardsmen, and the Guardsmen likely win. 100 to 1 is hard to beat. Give the Marines their support and artillery and anti infantry weapons, it's more even, and I might give it to supported Marines.
Marines are not gods, Bolters are not Zeus' lightning. Against the dark forces and thirsting gods, against monsters of Chaos, and Xenos beyond our imagining, it is the Guardsmen that have held the line for ten thousand years.
Void__Dragon wrote: 40k is not a military sci-fi world ala Starship Troopers. It is in fact a heroic fantasy setting (just in space) more akin to the Iliad and just like it features incredibly powerful protagonists who can rout entire armies through strength of arms.
TheBestBucketHead wrote: Space Marines aren't machines or gods. One Guardsman with a decent gun can kill anywhere from one to all of them depending on the ammo, conditions, and luck. Lasguns even have a chance to penetrate their armor. I'm going to assume, for the sake of argument, that we're not giving the guardsmen artillery, tanks, or particularly anti marine firepower. We'll even say that they'll run away once they reach 5% casualties. The Guardsmen win. That's 500 Guardsmen the Marine has to kill. While at least hundreds are firing on one Marine at a time. Make it 10 Marines and give Guardsmen artillery and anti Marine weapons, and the Guardsmen win. Make it 100 Marines against the same number of Guardsmen, and the Guardsmen likely win. 100 to 1 is hard to beat. Give the Marines their support and artillery and anti infantry weapons, it's more even, and I might give it to supported Marines.
Marines are not gods, Bolters are not Zeus' lightning. Against the dark forces and thirsting gods, against monsters of Chaos, and Xenos beyond our imagining, it is the Guardsmen that have held the line for ten thousand years.
Yeah I was kind of thinking that. And the fact is the Guard WILL be bringing vehicles and artillery. Guardsmen are the real power behind the Throne.
Asenion wrote: And the fact is the Guard WILL be bringing vehicles and artillery. Guardsmen are the real power behind the Throne.
Not necessarily. The way the regimental system is designed, is so that one regiment can rebel without having too much power. For example, in a battlegroup, there may be 5 regiments but each one only fills one specific role. The Cadian 40th and 50th are Infantry regiments, the Valhallan 99th, and Catachan 45th are Armoured regiments, and the Mordian 999th is an Artillery regiment. If the 999th turns against the Imperium it has no Infantry units to defend it or hold ground and no Armour to launch breakthrough assaults. Any responding forces, therefore, have a much easier time defeating them.
The Guard also has no aircraft or space-faring vessels of any kind so if a regiment turns traitor, it has no air support and no way of getting off-world, leaving the Imperium with plenty of time to get more troops to destroy the traitors.
Each institution of the Imperium is powerful in its own ways but has built-in safeguards to prevent them from being abused during periods of civil war thanks to a little thing called the Horus Heresy.
The Guard can take and hold worlds but only because the Navy transports them there. Likewise, the Navy holds supreme power in the void but can't take and hold planets.
The Astartes are a powerful force and largely independent of the Imperium but could not overthrow the ruling body of power as that body commands much greater supplies of resources and troops that could put an Astartes rebellion down. The Mechanicum is also a powerful and largely independent organisation but relies on the Imperium for the majority of its resources from raw materials to workers and like the Astartes could not hope to defeat the Imperium in a war (hence the Treaty of Mars).
The Ecclesiarchy commands the allegiance of all faithful Imperial citizens (i.e. pretty much everyone) and has its own militant arm in the Adepta Sororitas but needs to balance its political ambitions with the fragile peace maintained with the various other Imperial organisations that don't like the Ecclesiarchy getting too much power and doing a Goge Vandire. The Inquisition has theoretically limitless power, answering only to the Emperor, but again this has to be balanced with reality and the fact that the Inquisition is one of the smallest organistations that would take little time to destroy if it pushed its limits too often.
The only Imperial organisation that is truly limitless in power is the Administratum. Without the Administratum the Imperium doesn't function but its many adepts, workers and slaves are too busy filling out forms, signing documents, and having paper wars to care about silly things like politics or having a stranglehold on power.
^The mechanicum would probably quite happily do its own mining for raw materials, servitors et all. The Mechanicum doesn't really need the Imperium, although it's comfortable reaping the benefits from it.
Edit: The weak link for the Mechanicum is probably the Golden Throne itself and the Astronomicon, without which, interstellar travel gets much, much harder.
For the OP:
Marines vs. Guardsmen depends on context. The thing is, a primary pillar of Marine deployment is their ability to choose the context.
One Marine with a bolter vs Guardsmen with just lasguns? Probably 20-30 depending on context, more if its a situation where the Marine has every advantage. At that point sheer weight of firepower will bring the Marine down.
Give the Guardsmen weapons beyond the lasgun? Like a melta, plasma, or even grenade launcher? Probably closer to 10-15.
Marines are not unkillable, unstoppable machines - but they are definitely in all aspects except numbers better than your standard human trooper. Enough firepower can bring down any number of Marines.
Luckily for the Marines, their job isn't attrition warfare. Its shock and awe combined with disruption of command, supply lines, and bringing overwhelming strikes into a single critical location. The job of the Space Marines is to drop in, destroy a strong point quickly and in as brutal a way as possible, and then leave before the enemy can fully react. Instead, reinforcements arrive to find that the big artillery piece has been destroyed and that most of the people died while eating their lunch, not even having time to fully react or realize what the hell was going on. Lightning strike, destroy key position and then let the Guard handle the day to day activities.
Insectum7 wrote: ^The mechanicum would probably quite happily do its own mining for raw materials, servitors et all. The Mechanicum doesn't really need the Imperium, although it's comfortable reaping the benefits from it.
Edit: The weak link for the Mechanicum is probably the Golden Throne itself and the Astronomicon, without which, interstellar travel gets much, much harder.
For the OP:
Marines vs. Guardsmen depends on context. The thing is, a primary pillar of Marine deployment is their ability to choose the context.
If we're going to just keep saying "depends on the context" - well heck, given the right context one Tyranid can kill 10,000 Space Marines. I was hoping we could agree on some basic understanding and interpretation for such a boast and not get into extremely biased/niche circumstances.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Here to parrot what others have already said about who the Author is, and what side their on. I mean, 1 marine took down an entire coven of Dark Eldar, in a prepared ambush, with a knife and a bolter, in Abnett's book about the Snakes of Ithaca. Surely one dark Eldar is worth 5-10 Guardsmen?
Considering the same author had a squad of 12 Ghosts and about a hundred civilian distraction take out 5 Marines, even then there's no consensus.
I personally favor a much lower power scale, matching that quote from Dorn about the 100 men vs 10 Marines. It's generally the case in IG books where Marines are a very clear threat without getting into silly territory, and doing away with the awful transhuman dread thing that some authors mentioned.
Tygre wrote: 'Give me a hundred Space Marines. Or failing that give me a thousand other troops'
-Rogal Dorn, Primarch of the Imperial Fists
Well heck that's just 1 for 10.
Its an older quote, but it was used/paraphrased in the Blood and Fire (2013) novel. So in Rogal Dorns opinion a Squad of Space Marines is worth a company of Imperial Army.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Here to parrot what others have already said about who the Author is, and what side their on. I mean, 1 marine took down an entire coven of Dark Eldar, in a prepared ambush, with a knife and a bolter, in Abnett's book about the Snakes of Ithaca. Surely one dark Eldar is worth 5-10 Guardsmen?
Considering the same author had a squad of 12 Ghosts and about a hundred civilian distraction take out 5 Marines, even then there's no consensus.
I personally favor a much lower power scale, matching that quote from Dorn about the 100 men vs 10 Marines. It's generally the case in IG books where Marines are a very clear threat without getting into silly territory, and doing away with the awful transhuman dread thing that some authors mentioned.
Another thing is people are acting like the Guard run if just a single Guardsman gets killed or whatnot. If that was the case how is it they can take down Tyranids, Demons, Orks, Necrons, etc?
Insectum7 wrote: ^The mechanicum would probably quite happily do its own mining for raw materials, servitors et all. The Mechanicum doesn't really need the Imperium, although it's comfortable reaping the benefits from it.
Edit: The weak link for the Mechanicum is probably the Golden Throne itself and the Astronomicon, without which, interstellar travel gets much, much harder.
For the OP:
Marines vs. Guardsmen depends on context. The thing is, a primary pillar of Marine deployment is their ability to choose the context.
If we're going to just keep saying "depends on the context" - well heck, given the right context one Tyranid can kill 10,000 Space Marines. I was hoping we could agree on some basic understanding and interpretation for such a boast and not get into extremely biased/niche circumstances.
The thing is Marines have lots of training and practice, and in the right situations CAN just wipe the floor with regular human troopers. As someone stated, a single marine guarding a narrow hallway can easily fend off a disproportionate number of Guardsmen, as the Marine will have cover (along with power armor) and a direct firing line while the Guardsmen have to advance in the open in small numbers. On the flip-side, a few decent sharpshootres 1km away from the marine in concealed positions while the Marine is busy duking it out with a squad of regular Guardsmen stand a decent chance of doing some real damage.
1 Marine fighting it out against 10,000 Guardsmen out in the open is just kind of the extreme end of bad writing. If you want to say that the Marine was part of a drop pod strike that took out the command post of the X Army Group and stole a bunch of maps and files on their way out as they torched the place then yeah, in the end that one Marine probably effectively downed 10k Guardsmen. Without the leadership, the enemy is weaker. Having maps with positions taken will cause chaos as the Marines might find further weak points to either strike, or send the Guard to advance into. Captured files could lead to more vips found, or learn of offensives so that they can be countered, or baited out, etc.
The strength of Space Marines is that they can usually choose where they will be fighting, since they have their own transports, drop pods, transport ships, etc. They can send in overwhelming force into a single location, break it, and leave before the enemy has time to fully react.
GW/Black Library Writers failed History class...horrifically, they also failed Math, but luckily their straight A's in Literature and creative writing carried them through public education.
3rd War for Armageddon, the largest battle since the Horus Heresy (Fluff). What were the forces involved? Imperial Guard brought about 1.5 Million and the Marines had 50,000.
In WW1, the allied forces along the Western Front had more than 15 MILLION men. The US alone contributed 2.1 Million troops to the Western Front.
So again, GW sucks at history and math
Several of the original GW creators (no idea about the folks there now) were history enthusiasts, so I kind of assumed that the weird scale of 40k was an intentional joke that never landed.
Marines vs. Guardsmen depends on context. The thing is, a primary pillar of Marine deployment is their ability to choose the context.
This is so key.
Even on the table top I don't get to throw down a couple 100 guardsmen with tank companies and walls of artillery. I get 100-200 guardsmen to 50 or so Marines with a couple of tanks.
If we assume this is in the larger context of a war the Marines have managed to catch a small portion of million-man army and engage them in isolation. The same with Ork, Nids and other hoard armies.
Eldar and Necrons are the masters of mobility with interstellar teleportation, but Marines aren't far behind.
The situation where a Marine has to do the Charge of the Light Brigade against a prepared position should be rare, Marines can always pull back and drop behind that prepared position.
Tygre wrote: 'Give me a hundred Space Marines. Or failing that give me a thousand other troops'
-Rogal Dorn, Primarch of the Imperial Fists
Yep. One marine is worth ten guardsmen. Where the absurd idea of ten thousand came from?
I am gobsmacked that several people actually think that it is a question worth seriously pondering rather than just answering "LOL, no."
I think because that quote came from a time when it was a game setting, while modern perspectives see it as a protagonist's setting as so much of it is told from the perspective of marine protagonists winning against ridiculous odds.
It comes back to that plot armour point made previously.
A wargame as a setting is described almost like a history text, just the facts, averages etc.
Modern 40k has been retro transcribed into a multiheaded protagonist monstrosity. I commented as much on how small it seems when each army's special characters have to be at the centre or every protagonist worthy event in the game.
Tygre wrote: 'Give me a hundred Space Marines. Or failing that give me a thousand other troops'
-Rogal Dorn, Primarch of the Imperial Fists
Yep. One marine is worth ten guardsmen. Where the absurd idea of ten thousand came from?
I am gobsmacked that several people actually think that it is a question worth seriously pondering rather than just answering "LOL, no."
It is totally absurd if you're talking about a straight slugfest, yes, complete rubbish.
But if you're talking about the full vertical integration of marine assets and the amount of effort saved by ending a conflict quickly, then I'd argue one can get those numbers. If you multiply the 1 v 10000 by 100, that's a Battle Company with a Strike Cruiser and intermediary assets vs. a million Guardsmen with their assets. Show up quick, butcher the command, bombard weapons depots from space, swiftly excise attempts to rally new organization, and start cutting up the rest piecemeal until capitulation.
I feel there’s no point in considering the Guard having the preferred ground.
That’s…not how Astartes fight. It’s not their purpose. Because they’re not squandered.
A Guard Regiment might be ordered “stand there. Shoot the enemy. When you die, try not to bleed on your equipment too much”. Because they are completely disposable and imminently replaceable.
Astartes? Far more precise. If their tactical projections show a range of attack options, they’ll go with the most favourable situation. Because unlike the Guard? They have a say in the matter.
Also, when we consider Space Marines making a concentrated war effort, it's not like it's all or nothing. It's not "All the Marines die and lose" or "All the Marines survive and win." 20 Marines out of 100 fighting a million Guardsmen might be a worthy loss, but it is absolutely a huge blow to the Marines. 20 people that took decades to raise to where they are. Hundreds of years of experience gone in one battle. And if they take heavy losses, let's say 40 dead, that's a massive, unforgivable loss.
40 out of 1 million Marines may not be huge, but if Marines lost too many people per fight, it's an effective loss, and can eventually wipe them out.
But, how many Guardsmen do you think it would take to kill one Tyranid Warrior? In my head, a Tyranid Warrior should beat a Marine 1v1 almost every time, but I imagine most people would say that it would take less Guardsmen to kill a Tyranid Warrior than a Space Marine.
I mean, Cain's books and even Gaunt's books show heretic astartes falling constantly to las weapons, or other base level weapons. Cain literally duels one and survives with just a chain sword.
Then again, the Astartes have naval ships. As has been expressed in other threads, whoever calls the navy first kinda wins. If you have ground based weapons, but nothing that can reach or dissuade a full battleship from raining death on your planet, you lose. Lance strikes beat guardsmen and Space Marines in the RPS game of 40k, 100% of the time. And just guessing, but I think the navy would pick the Astartes over the calls of the IG 99% of the time.
If Sly Marbo is on that planet, he can destroy most naval ships by frowning at it hard enough.
But show me the Guardsmen with even a rudimentary level of knowledge to know how to prime it, aim it, and fire it.
It’s…almost as if they don’t have that level of knowledge! As if….post-Heresy military jitters ensure….they wouldn’t know their arse from their elbow in that regard, because having unlimited Lasguns is generally a pretty good answer!
Without Techpriest support or the specific training to do so? We're talking about orbital lasers and advanced shield technology, not the basic equipment in a regiment. Your bog standard Joe Lasman isn't going to know how to operate a defence laser battery. An example of this is seen in Storm of Iron, where a Guardsman is specifically walked through how to launch a tactical missile on a radio by a Techpriest hundreds of miles away because he has no idea how to do it.
Techpriests are a common part of a regiment, doubly so if the regiment has any sort of vehicle. They might have dual ties and would likely obey the Mechanicus first, but they're definitely part of a regiment.
Most Guardsmen (as in the vast majority) know how to use a Lasgun. Which makes it a perfect weapon (I did a thread about that a while back). Simple. Robust. Reliable.
Some (though still vast numbers) are trained to use more potent weapons.
But. Ground to Orbit weapons?
Tell me. What’s the right techno Psalm to appease the machine spirit? What’s the appropriate chant of foe alignment? Can you take a wild stab at the proper incantation of fury?
Oh….what’s that? You can’t? Me neither. But we both know that is how technology is explained to most in 40K.
Back in real world we might be able to figure out the controls. Possibly. Depends how advanced they are, which is antiquarian in the setting. Which button is self destruct, which button is fire?
Think of handing your Great Grandparent a smartphone or tablet, and telling them to use it to plot the next lunar eclipse.
You and I know to Google it. And we can probably get a fairly accurate result in a few seconds. Whereas my experience of Grandparental technological was flipping the TV’s remote control (which they considered a novelty, and I’m not even that old) to it simplified face. To prove I’m not making this up, it was a 1992ish Sony CRT telly.
And, bless their dear departed souls, granny and grandad still-/i] struggled.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bobthehero wrote: Techpriests are a common part of a regiment, doubly so if the regiment has any sort of vehicle. They might have dual ties and would likely obey the Mechanicus first, but they're definitely part of a regiment.
Congratulations on shifting the goalpost. Sadly you forgot to lift, leading to a cacophonous screeching.
Engineers are [i]assigned, but remain apart from a Regiment. Again that is entirely different. So first you need to explain exactly how the Techpriest was persuaded to fire on an Astartes vessel, given Astartes are known to be children of the Omnissiah.
Drop the sardonic humor, it's not helping your cause.
I assume some are given training, given it's weapon they'll be tasked to operate in one way or the other, especially as most of Guardsmens were once PDF members, who would likely have such weapons on some planets. And they can always ask the Priest for additional help. They don't need to be perfectly accurate with it, as seen in the Siege of Vraks, planet born anti-ship weapons are deterrent enough to prevent Marines from dropping right on target.
There's no need to explain it to the Tech-Priest. The Marines are hostile, we established that in the thread already, blow them to pieces. Or just turn on the Void Shield.
TheBestBucketHead wrote: If we assume the single Astartes has an entire ship of support, I think we can assume 10k Guardsmen have anti naval defenses.
Most PLANETS don't have anti-naval batteries. Think about it. Most planets biggest threat is raiders, either chaos or Dark Eldar variety. That is because anti-naval defense is just having a bigger patroling fleet than the other guys. With the exception of the Necron planets, there isn't even a ground based weapon that could effectively reach or target a naval ship. Even leviathan Nova cannons would be useless. And those are more rare than Emperors these days. The strongest weapon in the entire IG arsenel, the Shadow Sword cannon, which is essentially just a heavy laser destroyer from a titan, can't reach the ships in outer space. Think about Cadia. Why didn't Cadia shoot down all the ships blockading the planet? Because they didn't have the capability. They needed the Navy to do it. Which they literally couldn't until Phalynx showed up.
Vraks had plenty of defenses, which prevented a direct assault on the fortress from space. Laser silos are repeatedly mentioned, making any fleet unable to stay above the fortress itself. The rest of the planet was open, but direct space-to-land strikes were impossible.
Vraks was an important planet that needed to have a huge array of defences in order to prevent its massive supplies of weapons and equipment from being taken by force. Even before Xaphan started his own fortification projects the fortress capital on Vraks Prime was a monster of a citadel.
Most planets are not Vraks Prime. They will be lucky to have AA defences.
You've taken this from Guardsmen vs Marines to Guardsmen in an impenetrable citadel with all the logistical support they could possibly need vs a Marine with an escort ship. You also keep making assumptions about whether things *might* be.
And people haven't when it comes to the Space Marine? He has a ship with him, automatically knows where the command posts are, has no issues being recovered after his pod drop.
Giving the Marine a ship is a huge skewer in the balance, so it's only normal the Guard gets the same.
Yeah I don't think one can make the assumption that Guardsmen and their organizations are just dumb. That doesn't track with much of the lore. And I'm all for Guardsmen being able to man and operate anti-landing batteries and equipment, the thing is it's basically the primary role of Space Marines to successfully assault and capture those sorts of positions.
Bobthehero wrote: Drop the sardonic humor, it's not helping your cause.
I assume some are given training, given it's weapon they'll be tasked to operate in one way or the other, especially as most of Guardsmens were once PDF members, who would likely have such weapons on some planets. And they can always ask the Priest for additional help. They don't need to be perfectly accurate with it, as seen in the Siege of Vraks, planet born anti-ship weapons are deterrent enough to prevent Marines from dropping right on target.
There's no need to explain it to the Tech-Priest. The Marines are hostile, we established that in the thread already, blow them to pieces. Or just turn on the Void Shield.
No assumption to support your case. Couch it in established background or admit you’re wrong.
The Imperial Guard, as part of the wider Imperial War Machine are limited by design. Given the combat life expectancy is super low? And they’re super rarely deployed to their own world? Why train them to use whatever planetary defences might happen to exist on a given world? That’s…..a waste investment.
As for “jUsT tElL tEh EnGiNsEeR”….that’s not how the structure works. At all. And there’s every chance, given the bizarre and labyrinthine hierarchy of the Adeptus Mechanicus even they wouldn’t know what to do - because they’re attached to the regiment to keep fairly (well, I suppose comparatively) basic war machines ticking.
Consider this. Take an Enginseer, and ask them to make an Ordinatus Minoris to do its thing. And they won’t have a clue. Because that’s not how the Ad Mech operate. Or…see that wrecked Titan over there? Go make it work.
It’s like asking an Office Junior to sit and answer questions of a Parliamentary Select Comittee. Sure they can read and write, and have a very specific degree in say….economics. But the questions being asked might require super duper hyper specialised knowledge one gains through experience, because it’s so super duper hyper specialised it’s really not worth a course unto itself.
Given PDF man orbital lasers, as part of defending their worlds, it's not impossible for Guardsmen to have the know-how, since the IG regiments are drawn from the PDF or just having Guardsmen on garrison duty being familiar with the weapon.
That still leaves the Void Shield as a viable mean to prevent Orbital Strikes, and that seems much simpler to operate, having just a shield activate and work.
Bobthehero wrote: Given PDF man orbital lasers, as part of defending their worlds, it's not impossible for Guardsmen to have the know-how, since the IG regiments are drawn from the PDF or just having Guardsmen on garrison duty being familiar with the weapon.
That still leaves the Void Shield as a viable mean to prevent Orbital Strikes, and that seems much simpler to operate, having just a shield activate and work.
Again. Compartment military.
A member of the PDF might be trained, and indeed solely specialise in, manning ground to orbit weapons. By no means or evidence is every PDF member suitably trained. And given it’s not their purview, at all? Explain how a Guard Regiment would include that.
Not to mention it’s almost certainly a coterie of Tech Priests, already on planet, possibly specifically educated, that makes the big guns go pewpew.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Void shields are….kind of good. Rather than absorbing impacts, they shunt the energy into the warp.
The shield itself doesn’t decay as say, Star Trek shields do. That much is true.
Rather, they collapse because the safety cut outs of the generators kick in. Let it cool off, and the shield can be restored.
Land based battle? Not foolproof, as concertised fire can do the damage once that bubble pops. But it’s still hard work.
But.
Ground based installation, vs geosynchronous based firepower? Relentless firepower because you’ve no way to drive them off? Even if the shield generator survives? Likely Bugger all left worth protecting,
Because a Guard regiment is made out of PDF members, and if someone decides it's time for those who were tasked on the Laser silo to serve the Emperor somewhere, then off they go, replaced by new ones.
You can have much larger generators planet side, to make a bombardment worthless, redundant generators to maintain the field up to force a ground force to engage.
Ok, so now the argument is, and correct me if I'm wrong, but the entire Imperial Guard organized into planetary strike force, vs the Imperial Navy? Why don't we just ask how that worked for Cadia? Or any world that the Navy has ever literally turned to rock and dust? Because it's so far from even being a contest as to be silly. There is NO WEAPON IN THE ENTIRE IG ARSENEL THAT IS CAPABLE OF ENGAGING THE NAVY IN ORBIT. You could take the Air-defense batteries of a million worlds, and it still wouldn't stop a naval Virus Bomb, or a volley of 2 stage cyclonic Torpedoes.
A single space Marine can call on the navy to do it's bidding. They each carry the weight of their entire chapter's authority. Sort of like how a Custodian speaks with the authority of the Emperor. Even 100,000 guard soldiers cannot order anyone to do anything, except by becoming heretics.
This is the silliness of the entire argument.
Yes, a lone Space marine can kill 10,000 guard soldiers, because all he has to do is vox the Battlebarge in orbit. He doesn't even have to draw his weapon. He just sends the coordinates of the troops, and calls down the fire. If you are asking something dumb like, can a single marine fight hand to hand 10,000 guard troops, then no.
A Single warhound can't take on 10,000 guard either, but again, it doesn't have to. It has the fervent fanatical religious fury of the ENTIRE ADMECH behind it.
Bobthehero wrote: Given PDF man orbital lasers, as part of defending their worlds, it's not impossible for Guardsmen to have the know-how, since the IG regiments are drawn from the PDF or just having Guardsmen on garrison duty being familiar with the weapon.
That still leaves the Void Shield as a viable mean to prevent Orbital Strikes, and that seems much simpler to operate, having just a shield activate and work.
Again. Compartment military.
A member of the PDF might be trained, and indeed solely specialise in, manning ground to orbit weapons. By no means or evidence is every PDF member suitably trained. And given it’s not their purview, at all? Explain how a Guard Regiment would include that.
Not to mention it’s almost certainly a coterie of Tech Priests, already on planet, possibly specifically educated, that makes the big guns go pewpew.
Well this is definitely not comparing oranges to oranges.
If we're assuming it's 100 Space Marines *And all that entails*, then the Guardsmen are ALSO their respective million *and all that entails*, which should be including specialized engineer regiments, tech priests, etc. In addition to the ten thousand pieces of armor or whatever.
Bobthehero wrote: Because a Guard regiment is made out of PDF members, and if someone decides it's time for those who were tasked on the Laser silo to serve the Emperor somewhere, then off they go, replaced by new ones.
You can have much larger generators planet side, to make a bombardment worthless, redundant generators to maintain the field up to force a ground force to engage.
Mate you’re grasping at straws. And, in defiance of 40k’s admittedly……shall we call it fluid? I feel fluid is a good word…lore, yet to present a single canonical example of a Guardsman having the know-how to prime, aim and fire a planetary defence weapon.
And I think you’ll struggle to find such.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m perfectly happy to be disproven - and I’m not saying there is no such example. But right now, you are carrying the burden of proof.
Bobthehero wrote: Given PDF man orbital lasers, as part of defending their worlds, it's not impossible for Guardsmen to have the know-how, since the IG regiments are drawn from the PDF or just having Guardsmen on garrison duty being familiar with the weapon.
That still leaves the Void Shield as a viable mean to prevent Orbital Strikes, and that seems much simpler to operate, having just a shield activate and work.
Again. Compartment military.
A member of the PDF might be trained, and indeed solely specialise in, manning ground to orbit weapons. By no means or evidence is every PDF member suitably trained. And given it’s not their purview, at all? Explain how a Guard Regiment would include that.
Not to mention it’s almost certainly a coterie of Tech Priests, already on planet, possibly specifically educated, that makes the big guns go pewpew.
Well this is definitely not comparing oranges to oranges.
If we're assuming it's 100 Space Marines *And all that entails*, then the Guardsmen are ALSO their respective million *and all that entails*, which should be including specialized engineer regiments, tech priests, etc. In addition to the ten thousand pieces of armor or whatever.
I….didn’t up those numbers. The premise of the thread is “can one Space Marine take 10,000 Guardsmen”.
The simple answer is…yes. Yes they can. Becuase by this admittedly “gone a bit too far, but it’s still established in-universe canon”, a single Space Marine can find himself in overall command of a Gladius escort ship. A ship more than half the size (for reference purposes only) of a Super Star Destroyer. And the Imperial Guard having precisely dick all resources to hand to do a single bloody thing about the incoming orbital bombardment.
So far all the counter points have been “nuh-uh”. And I’ve addressed them with further canonical (so much as it exists in 40K) references to show that…actually….yeah.
I’m well into my background, and I enjoy discussing and debating it.
I don’t think I’ve attacked a poster in place of attacking their stance. And as stated, I’m perfectly happy to learn more by citation of 40k’s fluid and mutable canon.
All I ask is that the source is something GW published.
It's unlikely I will because it's quite rare they're mentioned at all in the lore, but at no point are they mentioned to be overly complicated or impossible to figure out. The Vraks force used them in their book, after all, with little to no mention of any Mechanicus support. Whether those were Guardsmen turned traitors or local trained PDF, is unknown, but imo, the option is there. Or just fall back to Void Shield and make the Gladius unable to do much. Either way, there exists ways for the Guard to be protected against space assault, and as such, giving the Marine a ship is not an automatic way guarantee he'll kill the Guardsmen by sitting on his ship.
Though I'll mention the Gladius is also described as being poor for planetery assaults, so the Marine would likely have to requisition a bigger ship
Bobthehero wrote: Given PDF man orbital lasers, as part of defending their worlds, it's not impossible for Guardsmen to have the know-how, since the IG regiments are drawn from the PDF or just having Guardsmen on garrison duty being familiar with the weapon.
That still leaves the Void Shield as a viable mean to prevent Orbital Strikes, and that seems much simpler to operate, having just a shield activate and work.
Again. Compartment military.
A member of the PDF might be trained, and indeed solely specialise in, manning ground to orbit weapons. By no means or evidence is every PDF member suitably trained. And given it’s not their purview, at all? Explain how a Guard Regiment would include that.
Not to mention it’s almost certainly a coterie of Tech Priests, already on planet, possibly specifically educated, that makes the big guns go pewpew.
Well this is definitely not comparing oranges to oranges.
If we're assuming it's 100 Space Marines *And all that entails*, then the Guardsmen are ALSO their respective million *and all that entails*, which should be including specialized engineer regiments, tech priests, etc. In addition to the ten thousand pieces of armor or whatever.
I….didn’t up those numbers. The premise of the thread is “can one Space Marine take 10,000 Guardsmen”.
The simple answer is…yes. Yes they can. Becuase by this admittedly “gone a bit too far, but it’s still established in-universe canon”, a single Space Marine can find himself in overall command of a Gladius escort ship. A ship more than half the size (for reference purposes only) of a Super Star Destroyer. And the Imperial Guard having precisely dick all resources to hand to do a single bloody thing about the incoming orbital bombardment.
So far all the counter points have been “nuh-uh”. And I’ve addressed them with further canonical (so much as it exists in 40K) references to show that…actually….yeah.
I'm with you on "Strike Cruiser" is major trump card. I'm definitely not with you on "Guardsmen are dumb".
Gadzilla666 wrote: Errmm....isn't 1 space marine with an interplanetary warship vs 10,000 Guardsmen sliigghhhtly different from One space marine vs 10,000 Guardsmen?
40k ship sizes might have been embiggened a bit over the years. The Cobra class destroyer was 800m long. With the Lunar class cruiser was 3.2km long. That was when the BFG was new. The Gladius is a Frigate so the size would be between 800m and 3200m. Most likely around 1000m.
But that would still make it 1 Space Marine + lots of chapter serfs and techpriests (or techmarines aka more marines) vs 10,000 guardsman.
If we include command abilities well the head of the IG is sometimes one of the High Lords of Terra.
When the question is One Space Marine versus Ten Thousand Guardsmen, we can't really add Thousands of Void Based Workers to one side, plus a ship that is not standard issue to singular Space Marines, but not give the Imperial Guard any Anti Naval, Ground to Space defenses.
It would be like asking the same question, but giving the Imperial Guard a single Baneblade per person, and slotting the rest of the crew with PDF, and using workers as spotters and scouts, and then giving the Marine a Bolter and knife.
Sure, it's possible, and might happen, but I think we all understand that it's inherently going against the spirit of the question.
I mean people started giving the Guard tanks and artillery.
The original question was just Guardsmen and a Space Marine so I would argue that saying the Guardsmen should have got non-Guardsmen goes against the spirit no?
It's not like anything new has come up in this discussion anyway and the only real answer was covered on the first reply.
It's expanded because 10000 is a lot. So the expanded version is "If the comparison is not a purely linear troop vs. troop, and rather within the context of 'assets in theatre', is 1 v 10000 attainable.
It's the discussion which squares the circle of "If 10 Guardsmen can gun down a Space Marine, how are 1000 chapters of 1000 Marines capable of doing anything?"
Lets try this one, can 1 marine (with reasonable support) do the joy of 10,000 guardsmen which I think is a fairer question and that's where the Marine wins.
Lord Evil is in Castle Evil surrounded by thousands of troops. It will take 100,000 guardsmen (with tanks and artillery) to fight their way in and kill him.
However 10 marines can drop into his court yard in the dead of night, fight their way through a few hundred guards and kill him easily.
Stuff like that is where you get 1 marine=10k guardsmen.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Lets try this one, can 1 marine (with reasonable support) do the joy of 10,000 guardsmen which I think is a fairer question and that's where the Marine wins.
Lord Evil is in Castle Evil surrounded by thousands of troops. It will take 100,000 guardsmen (with tanks and artillery) to fight their way in and kill him.
However 10 marines can drop into his court yard in the dead of night, fight their way through a few hundred guards and kill him easily.
Stuff like that is where you get 1 marine=10k guardsmen.
Exactly. The statement in the OP of "One Space Marine can beat 10,000 Guardsmen" is just a mangling of the statement "One Space Marine is worth 10,000 Guardsmen". And even then, it's only true in certain contexts. If you need to garrison a specific piece of ground, for example? Go with the 10,000 Guardsmen.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Lets try this one, can 1 marine (with reasonable support) do the joy of 10,000 guardsmen which I think is a fairer question and that's where the Marine wins.
Lord Evil is in Castle Evil surrounded by thousands of troops. It will take 100,000 guardsmen (with tanks and artillery) to fight their way in and kill him.
However 10 marines can drop into his court yard in the dead of night, fight their way through a few hundred guards and kill him easily.
Stuff like that is where you get 1 marine=10k guardsmen.
Bingo.
Quick, decisive action vs. what would otherwise turn into a long, protracted siege.
Commissar Ciaphus can kill 10,000 Space Marines! Humanity does not need these Astartes Monstrosities or their Monarchist-Divine Right- Authoritarian Emperor. F him! He's a Monster and so are his ilk! I really believe the Emperor Himself, now worshipped as a God, BETRAYING all he believed in, would order his own execution! And those TRULY LOYAL can at least grant him this final, death bed wish!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Utterly betraying the Imperial Truth! Deep down I bet the Emperor wants to die! Can His "Worshippers" grant Him one last, merciful, service? If He begs.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Lets try this one, can 1 marine (with reasonable support) do the joy of 10,000 guardsmen which I think is a fairer question and that's where the Marine wins.
Lord Evil is in Castle Evil surrounded by thousands of troops. It will take 100,000 guardsmen (with tanks and artillery) to fight their way in and kill him.
However 10 marines can drop into his court yard in the dead of night, fight their way through a few hundred guards and kill him easily.
Stuff like that is where you get 1 marine=10k guardsmen.
Bingo.
Quick, decisive action vs. what would otherwise turn into a long, protracted siege.
While true, it's not as much a reflection on a marine as it is on their modus operandi. The Elysian drop troops, kasrkin, or other elite guard can perform tactical insertions in the same way to generate similar results.
Any soldier that can be immediately placed right next to their target quickly with less risk gets a substantial force and success multiplier bonus.
So the 'power' of marines would be comparing the same action and determining the amount of marines you'd need vs other elite forces to succeed at the same thing.
comparing a guard siege to a marine insertion isn't really an equal measure.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I….didn’t up those numbers. The premise of the thread is “can one Space Marine take 10,000 Guardsmen”.
The simple answer is…yes. Yes they can. Becuase by this admittedly “gone a bit too far, but it’s still established in-universe canon”, a single Space Marine can find himself in overall command of a Gladius escort ship. A ship more than half the size (for reference purposes only) of a Super Star Destroyer. And the Imperial Guard having precisely dick all resources to hand to do a single bloody thing about the incoming orbital bombardment.
So far all the counter points have been “nuh-uh”. And I’ve addressed them with further canonical (so much as it exists in 40K) references to show that…actually….yeah.
And a single guardsman could find himself in command of an anti-orbital planetside battery. What's your point?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I’m well into my background, and I enjoy discussing and debating it.
You don't actually seem that knowledgeable on the topic.
It takes 10 Thousand Psykers every DAY to keep the Emperor alive. If you had a conscience, how long could YOU keep that up?!
" 1 Emperor could kill 10,000 Psykers!" How "Glorious!"
There is a Japanese term for this " Duty has the weight of a mountain, while death is as light as a feather." The Emperor, above all, has earned a reprieve.
Automatically Appended Next Post: " You must kill me! Must, Astartes PLEASE! Begging on hands and knees! "
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I….didn’t up those numbers. The premise of the thread is “can one Space Marine take 10,000 Guardsmen”.
The simple answer is…yes. Yes they can. Becuase by this admittedly “gone a bit too far, but it’s still established in-universe canon”, a single Space Marine can find himself in overall command of a Gladius escort ship. A ship more than half the size (for reference purposes only) of a Super Star Destroyer. And the Imperial Guard having precisely dick all resources to hand to do a single bloody thing about the incoming orbital bombardment.
So far all the counter points have been “nuh-uh”. And I’ve addressed them with further canonical (so much as it exists in 40K) references to show that…actually….yeah.
And a single guardsman could find himself in command of an anti-orbital planetside battery. What's your point?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I’m well into my background, and I enjoy discussing and debating it.
You don't actually seem that knowledgeable on the topic.
I know plenty, thank you.
Anti-orbital batteries aren’t the purview of the Guard. That’d be the Ad-Mech. And even if they’d taken over the battery? A Guardsman isn’t going to know how to use it.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Anti-orbital batteries aren’t the purview of the Guard. That’d be the Ad-Mech.
Or PDF, which are where the guardsmen are recruited from.
And even if they’d taken over the battery? A Guardsman isn’t going to know how to use it.
And a single space marine can't run an entire warship solo. You've got a ridiculous double standard where "one space marine" includes a crew of thousands on a warship because the space marine can order them to help, while the guard regiment can't tell the local PDF to use their anti-ship defenses because Reasons.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Anti-orbital batteries aren’t the purview of the Guard. That’d be the Ad-Mech.
Or PDF, which are where the guardsmen are recruited from.
And even if they’d taken over the battery? A Guardsman isn’t going to know how to use it.
And a single space marine can't run an entire warship solo. You've got a ridiculous double standard where "one space marine" includes a crew of thousands on a warship because the space marine can order them to help, while the guard regiment can't tell the local PDF to use their anti-ship defenses because Reasons.
Simple matter of Authority.
The PDF and Imperial Guard simply cannot order the Ad Mech about. Even their commanders have to liaise with the Priesthood, who are by no means beholden to fulfil any request. The PDF and Guard will have no idea how to activate the weapons without the Ad Mech, because they’re not trained or educated in the Mysteries of the Omnissiah.
A Space Marine on an Astartes vessel, crewed by Chapter Serfs? Even if they’re simply a Battle Brother? Obeyed without question, barring a higher ranking Marine being in charge.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: The PDF and Guard will have no idea how to activate the weapons without the Ad Mech, because they’re not trained or educated in the Mysteries of the Omnissiah.
{citation needed}
Vraks had operational orbital defenses after going traitor, despite being so lacking in technical ability that they couldn't get the Valdors they had stored in the warehouses onto the battlefield until traitor marines showed up to help them. Your claim that orbital defenses are so impossibly complicated that guard/PDF can't operate them is not backed up by evidence.
A Space Marine on an Astartes vessel, crewed by Chapter Serfs? Even if they’re simply a Battle Brother? Obeyed without question, barring a higher ranking Marine being in charge.
We’ve gone from 10,000 Guard vs 1 Marine. When pointed out a Marine would have the advantage of being able to pick the field? Suddenly its 10,000 Guardsmen and loads of tanks etc.
I brought in the Gladius Class scenario as a counter. That if the Guard are trying to play equipment top trumps, the Marine still wins. Pretty much every single time. Because Marines aren’t as restricted as Guardsmen.
You have a single source, Vraks, which I do need to read again. Spesh as it’s up on Warhammer Vault.
Yet there are dozens of Black Library novels pointing out the PDF and Guard do not operate orbital defences, as those are Ad Mech Installations.
Even powering them requires the Ad Mech to be complicit, which is a further “yes but if I keep adding stuff then I win”. And if you want to play that game? Here goes.
One Space Marine. The Chapter Master. Aboard his flagship Battlebarge. The Chapter’s gathered fleet in tow. The Chapter Master gives the order to Exterminatus. That order isn’t carried out by Marines - but by Chapter Serfs. Ergo, a single Space Marine just directly caused a planet to be wiped out.
Well yes, the 10,000 guardsmen get their standard equipment. Or do you think "10,000 guardsmen vs. one space marine" means everyone is stripped naked and forced to punch each other to death?
I brought in the Gladius Class scenario as a counter.
Which is not standard equipment for a single marine.
You have a single source, Vraks, which I do need to read again.
Thank you. Orbital defenses are not impossible for PDF/guardsmen to operate.
One Space Marine. The Chapter Master. Aboard his flagship Battlebarge. The Chapter’s gathered fleet in tow. The Chapter Master gives the order to Exterminatus. That order isn’t carried out by Marines - but by Chapter Serfs. Ergo, a single Space Marine just directly caused a planet to be wiped out.
"One space marine orders thousands of subordinates to do something" =/= "one marine".
But thank you for implicitly conceding that the single marine can't beat the 10,000 guardsmen, as you have to resort to bringing in allies for the marine instead of having the marine fight solo.
Yet….one Guardsman can operate an orbital defence facility?
Play fair, or don’t play at all. Because if we want to macro that, we can’t count using firearms, because yes the brain tells the finger to squeeze which sets off the trigger which sets off an electric (Lasgun) or mechanical then chemical process (Bolter) so actually regardless who gets splatted the person with the gun didn’t actually do it.
Chapter Master gives the order. That order is fulfilled by Ship Masters (who aren’t Astartes) and the crew (also aren’t Astartes). One Marine, one Will. All the big death.
No, but the scenario involves 10,000 of them, not one.
Play fair, or don’t play at all. Because if we want to macro that, we can’t count using firearms, because yes the brain tells the finger to squeeze which sets off the trigger which sets off an electric (Lasgun) or mechanical then chemical process (Bolter) so actually regardless who gets splatted the person with the gun didn’t actually do it.
Sure, both sides get their standard gear. That includes tanks/heavy weapons/etc for the guardsmen, it does not include a warship for the single space marine. The only reason orbital defenses are being brought up is your absurd suggestion that "one marine" means "one marine plus a warship and crew".
Chapter Master gives the order. That order is fulfilled by Ship Masters (who aren’t Astartes) and the crew (also aren’t Astartes). One Marine, one Will. All the big death.
"One marine plus thousands of allies" =/= "one marine".
Or if you want to play stupid games that one guardsman happens to be a certain commissar with a "friend" in the inquisition, he calls in a favor, and shortly afterwards the entire marine chapter is declared to be traitors, their homeworld is exterminatused, and their entire fleet is destroyed.
Still doesn’t save the Guardsmen. At all. And it’s kind of hard to see how the Commissar gets the message to the Inquisitor in time - let alone why the Inquisitor would take the radical step of trying to annihilate the Chapter.
Not to mention the Commissariat isn’t really part of the Guard, but a department unto itself
Remember. The premise isn’t “one Marine with standard equipment”. It’s just the poorly defined One Marine. And I just presented a scenario where that One Marine absolutely has the resources and authority to make it a super short battle.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Still doesn’t save the Guardsmen. At all. And it’s kind of hard to see how the Commissar gets the message to the Inquisitor in time - let alone why the Inquisitor would take the radical step of trying to annihilate the Chapter.
Because he's just that good in bed and that lucky.
Not to mention the Commissariat isn’t really part of the Guard, but a department unto itself
Um, no. Commissars are absolutely part of the guard.
Remember. The premise isn’t “one Marine with standard equipment”. It’s just the poorly defined One Marine. And I just presented a scenario where that One Marine absolutely has the resources and authority to make it a super short battle.
"One marine plus thousands of allies" =/= "one marine".
But like I said, thanks for conceding the fact that the only way the marine can even attempt to win is to beg someone stronger to fight on his behalf.
It’s…not begging “someone stronger”. It’s a Marine ordering subordinates? Not allies. Direct subordinates. If you’re counting subordinates as allies, then each Guardsman would be entirely on their own, as if they’re following an order, by your rationale, that’s just calling in “allies”.
The Commissars come from the Officio Prefectus, a division of the Departmento Munitorum, who oversee the logistics of the Astra Militarum. The Astra Militarum is a separate entity entirely. You can tell, because each has a separate Head Honcho.
Departmento Munitorum report to Master of the Administratum. Astra Militarum report to Lord Commander Militant. Two organisations that yes work together, but remain apart.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: It’s…not begging “someone stronger”. It’s a Marine ordering subordinates? Not allies. Direct subordinates. If you’re counting subordinates as allies, then each Guardsman would be entirely on their own, as if they’re following an order, by your rationale, that’s just calling in “allies”.
Lolwut. Calling in "allies" from within the 10,000 guardsmen is not bringing in outside forces, it's the 10,000 guardsmen fighting as a standard guard force. A space marine begging the rest of the chapter to send thousands of allies to help is going way beyond the scope of "one space marine".
But like I said, thank you for admitting very clearly that the one space marine loses this fight.
The Commissars come from the Officio Prefectus, a division of the Departmento Munitorum, who oversee the logistics of the Astra Militarum. The Astra Militarum is a separate entity entirely. You can tell, because each has a separate Head Honcho.
Um, no. Commissars are part of the imperial guard chain of command and serve directly within it.
A Chapter Master (the required One Space Marine) is begging no-one. He is ordering his fleet into action. Those aren’t allies. They are Chapter resources. His to direct as he sees fit. Ergo, a single Space Marine can wipe out entire planets, as they have the authority and resources to order Exterminatus if they so wish - and no other Space Marine, though they’d be present, would take an active part of that, as they don’t crew the fleet in that manner.
And you really need to read up on the Commissariat. The entire point of them is that they’re completely apart from the Command Structure of the Imperial Guard.
Now, as for Vraks. Just been skim reading Vol 1, and whilst yes it has Defence Lasers, I’m yet to read where Guardsmen or PDF are operating them. If you could provide a volume and page ref, that’d be appreciated.
One space marine =/= one space marine with thousands of allies.
This farce has gone on long enough, you clearly aren't interested in an honest discussion of anything and your continued insistence on going beyond "one space marine" in a desperate attempt to win is more than enough of a concession that the one space marine loses.
Underlings are not allies. The one Space Marine is using the resources available to him - no different than them equipping their Power Armour, Bolter and Combat Knife. And in commanding his fleet, the Chapter Master remains the sole Space Marine actually involved.
On the allies thing, perhaps there is a language barrier.
Allies are outside forces. The crews of Astartes fleets are no more allies than the different Companies are allies to each other.
Still doesn’t change the fact that the Chapter Master ordering Exterminatus need not involve any other Marine, because it’s all done by the Crew, which are Chapter Serfs.
A splitting of hairs? Possibly. But still a clear example of when a Single Marine’s actions can defeat untold numbers.
Nope. Part of the resources available. No different to wielding a weapon.
If it was Guard getting the Navy to bombard? That would be allied forces, as they’re very deliberately separate organisations.
Space Marines, not at all. Whilst the combat capacity of their ships is deliberately limited (geared toward planetary assault and bombardment thereof), it’s still a single fighting force.
One Space Marine, One Will. One order. Goodbye most loving things on that planet. Or indeed all, depending on exactly what sort of Exterminatus Weapon is used.
Like everything, it depends on circumstance. Can the marine place themselves in a position where they limit the guard numbers coming at them.
Can they use surgical strikes on command centres and quick retreats back to orbit to disrupt the guard tactics and orders, can they ambush, inflict significant loss without taking hardly any.
Marine battle barges and strike cruisers are also generally equipped with significant firepower where they can feasibly wipe out large portions of a guard force just via orbital bombardment.
So yes they can. In reality though, are guard without their own imperial navy support, does the planet have a sufficient orbital and anti-orbital defence grid?
One marine vs 10000 guard, on an open battlefield where guardsmen are organised? No chance, last bolts will hit home in weak points, some will get knife into said weakpoints also inevitably. At somepoint very quickly the marine will run out of ammo also and have to close the distance or run away.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: We’ve gone from 10,000 Guard vs 1 Marine. When pointed out a Marine would have the advantage of being able to pick the field? Suddenly its 10,000 Guardsmen and loads of tanks etc.
I brought in the Gladius Class scenario as a counter. That if the Guard are trying to play equipment top trumps, the Marine still wins. Pretty much every single time. Because Marines aren’t as restricted as Guardsmen.
You have a single source, Vraks, which I do need to read again. Spesh as it’s up on Warhammer Vault.
Yet there are dozens of Black Library novels pointing out the PDF and Guard do not operate orbital defences, as those are Ad Mech Installations.
Even powering them requires the Ad Mech to be complicit, which is a further “yes but if I keep adding stuff then I win”. And if you want to play that game? Here goes.
One Space Marine. The Chapter Master. Aboard his flagship Battlebarge. The Chapter’s gathered fleet in tow. The Chapter Master gives the order to Exterminatus. That order isn’t carried out by Marines - but by Chapter Serfs. Ergo, a single Space Marine just directly caused a planet to be wiped out.
Would you like that trophy in gold, sir, or just the lamentations of their women?
lmao this thread has gone to deliciously idiotic places at the hands of bad faith astartophiles.
At least we've learned the definition of "a space marine" is actually "all space marines." Why call in an orbital strike when you can get 9999 of your friends and make it an even fight?
Ok, but honestly, if a guard regiment needs to have anti-orbital batteries, but the space marine just gets a bolter, what are we doing here? Because I'll take the Tech Marine from Hellsreach, and his Ordinatus Nova Cannon as his weapon. You can have all the lasguns and orbital batteries you want. He just needs a single shot, and can likely obliterate the entire 10k. And for the survivors, I turn to a quote by Burt Gummer (Slayer of Graboids)
"The rest were taken out with a mix of small arms fire and hand to hand combat techniques. I AM COMPLETELY OUT OF AMMO. That's never happened before."
No allies means no Departmento Munitorum. That means no equipment. At all. No Lasguns, no power packs, no flak armour, no grenades, no combat knife, no bayonet and so on and so forth.
No allies means no Enginseers to activate the stuff your quite possibly illiterate Guardsmen have absolutely zero chance of understanding. Or indeed switch on and calibrate communications, maps etc.
No allies means no bulk carriers, no Imperial Navy.
Congratulations, you’ve reduced the whole thing to 10,000 persons, vs a post human monstrosity still clad in his Power Armour and armed with whatever weapon option they’re trained in, because Chapters are self contained fighting units - unlike the Imperial Guard.
This was unbelievably insulting and greasy to read. You're deliberately trying to gaslight somebody when *you're* the one bending language and universal, uncomplicated concepts -- like the concept of an individual, or the definition of an ally -- within microns of their breaking points.
One space marine is one space marine. If your scenario requires him to communicate or collaborate with a single other living being the premise of the thread has been violated.
Your homebrew definition of "ally" was especially inane. The word has zero connection to hierarchy, and no real human has ever pretended to define it as such.
Chapter Serfs, who crew Astartes Vessels, are absolutely not Allies. They’re subjects of the Chapter, bound to the Orders they’re given.
An Ally is an external agency. Which Chapter Serfs are not.
Or perhaps I’m my employer’s ally, and not, you know, employee?
Given his country flag suggests English may not be his first language, it is entirely possible a language barrier exists. There’s sod all insulting or “greasy” about that.
Just so this is clear, MDG wasn't the one who started adding on extras. It was the OP who said that the Guard would have artillery and tanks, at which point the conversation changed. People keep adding extras to the 10k Guardsmen and citing either single examples or reacting to a post that was itself a reaction. In turn, the Marine got stuff as well, which apparently isn't fair because "reasons".
Either everyone gets their extras or nobody does.
I would say that was an error on the OP's part ("error" because they clearly seem to have made this thread to get confirmation of a conclusion they wanted to hear echoed back at them, and not out of actual curiosity). They could have left it at infantry-on-infantry and left satisfied.
But nevertheless: if you randomly sampled 10,000 Imperial Guard out of the total amount of Imperial Guard, would some of those 10,000 possibly be assigned to vehicles? Would others be capable of crewing those vehicles?
Yes and yes. But no individual space marine is equipped with a spaceship. However, you could still get away with submitting a Dreadnought as your choice of marine, without straying into the intellectually-dishonest logic bro territory that some people put on offer.
MDG, you're not really worth any more attention in here, because you've crossed well deep into the "i'll just lie about it" zone. It's clear you want to die on this hill, and I'll be your ally in that effort.
Dunno. I think they tend to get exactly as much Plot Armour as required scenario to scenario.
In Nightbringer, there’s a description of Lasgun bolts hitting power armour, causing localised melting. In Horus Heresy, Bolters cut down Marines like wheat before a scythe in one scene, then do much less in the next.
It doesn't really matter though, because the Departament Munitorum would label them traitor guard for attacking a space marine, and then literally everyone would be executed, so in a way, the space marine wins?
You attack a space marine, they ALL die, no ifs ands, or butts. just straight to the Blams.
You don’t even really need to engage them, as the DM could always (bureaucratic inertia aside) just….stop supplying them. So depending on where they turned their coats, you could starve them out in no time.
I mean, just by saying you would attack that single marine, you'd essentially be inviting the Inquisition to come play with your entire unit. And if the inquisition playing with your unit sounds dirty, you need to be made into a servitor.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I mean, just by saying you would attack that single marine, you'd essentially be inviting the Inquisition to come play with your entire unit. And if the inquisition playing with your unit sounds dirty, you need to be made into a servitor.
I would think 10k guard downing one Marine would just be a FF incident. Carry on spraying the target boys.
Accidentally killing one of the Emperor's Angels because you didn't check your fire is a shooting offence. That's pretty high on the list of ideological crimes.
Battle Ground - Forest, at least 100 miles across, no especially hostile wildlife or terrain
Deployment - Marine and guard enter from opposite sides
Space Marine - normal gear, armor, bolter, knife, a few grenades
10,000 Imperial guard - normal gear, flak vest, helmet, radio, lasgun, knife, a few grenades, a few days rations, flashlight
Victory - One side wins when all members of the other side are dead, injured or fled the battlefield.
Do I think the marine WILL win? No.
Do I think the marine COULD win? Yes.
Would it make an interesting story? Sure.
With a battleground of that scale? There is potential advantage for the Astartes, especially if the Forest is particularly dense. Not only can that help obscure their approach, but also limits field of fire. The other aspect here is where the Guard are from. Catachan’s are of course a much trickier prospect, because they’re in their preferred environment. Whereas a Regiment freshly raised from a Hive World might very well be utterly terrified already by this entirely alien environment.
If there’s no time pressure? The Marine can do proper mind games, not needing to sleep as humans do. Night vision thanks to their Power Armour, and indeed other potential visual filters.
Take that approach, and it’s that delightful self-sharpening mono-molecular combat knife’s time to play, especially at night. Take out the pickets, and rampage your way through whatever troops are in the immediate vicinity. This works best if the Guard aren’t all clumped up of course.
The other thing we need to consider is the Astartes can safely eat pretty much anything. And even better? Analyse, via taste any toxins. Coat his knife in it. Poison water supplies or food stores, potentially. I mean, the Guard can absolutely kind of do the same, but it’s more lining up a bunch of Troopers, getting them to each eat something different, then careful notes of record which ones poop themselves inside out or go a funny colour and starting spewing up their rapidly liquifying interiors.
We also need to consider the possibility of Strike and Fade. Not only can the Astartes run far faster than a human being. A cursory Google didn’t help, as it suggested anything from 21kph, to 30 or 50mph.
I mean, any of those is super bloody fast compare to us. Yes Usain Bolt himself is faster in the lowest estimate? But can he keep that speed up for any length of time? No he can’t. The Astartes can. So infiltrate the camp, do a bit of the old Ultra-V, then literally leg it - because the Guard have little to no chance of catching you.
Sure, the Astartes risks running out of ammo far quicker than the Guard, due to the benefit of Lasguns, and him needing to do this over numerous individual assaults. However….there’s very little stopping him from collecting Frag Grenades every engagement, ensuring at least some, if less than ideal, range firepower. Not to mention the potential to commandeer Heavy Weapons, which the Astartes can most definitely use - though the trigger might prove fiddly.
Now the first few nights are going to be the highest risk to the Astartes as I see it, as whatever pickets are deployed are going to be fairly fresh and well rested. Not insurmountable, but trickier than after a few nights of reported massacres, where the victims have been hideously murdered to death. That can leave the Guard paranoid, on edge and ever more exhausted.
So it’s very doable. By no means quickly doable. But definitely doable.
Battle Ground - Forest, at least 100 miles across, no especially hostile wildlife or terrain
Deployment - Marine and guard enter from opposite sides
Space Marine - normal gear, armor, bolter, knife, a few grenades
10,000 Imperial guard - normal gear, flak vest, helmet, radio, lasgun, knife, a few grenades, a few days rations, flashlight
Victory - One side wins when all members of the other side are dead, injured or fled the battlefield.
Do I think the marine WILL win? No.
Do I think the marine COULD win? Yes.
Would it make an interesting story? Sure.
It would mostly depend on whether each side knows what the opfor consists of. It would be trivially easy for 10K troops to set up in a way that prevents a single person from successfully assaulting or infiltrating (without authorial fiat plot armour like "finding a hidden cave system to sneak into camp!!"). On the other hand, if the marine knows they have a few days rations he can just... hide. The IG will have to die or forfeit the match by exiting the Forest of Trials.
The Marine sits tight and the IG starve. Combat-wise though? The Marine has no chance if the Guard are well led and organized. They could level a nice area of forest, build a fort and gun the Marine down on approach.
Battle Ground - Forest, at least 100 miles across, no especially hostile wildlife or terrain
Deployment - Marine and guard enter from opposite sides
Space Marine - normal gear, armor, bolter, knife, a few grenades
10,000 Imperial guard - normal gear, flak vest, helmet, radio, lasgun, knife, a few grenades, a few days rations, flashlight
Victory - One side wins when all members of the other side are dead, injured or fled the battlefield.
Do I think the marine WILL win? No.
Do I think the marine COULD win? Yes.
Would it make an interesting story? Sure.
Digs a hole, buries himself and activates sus-an membrane hibernation for a hundred years or so. Awaken to glorious victory.
If a fight happens though the guard win. Over the course of an immortal-ish life one space marine probably does beat 10,000 Guard level threats, cumulative not simultaneous.
Insectum7 wrote: The Marine sits tight and the IG starve. Combat-wise though? The Marine has no chance if the Guard are well led and organized. They could level a nice area of forest, build a fort and gun the Marine down on approach.
Ah ah ah! No leaders, that's not part of the deal. It's 10k regular guard troopers. No commissars, no Company commanders, no primaris Psykers, etc. Against a single Astartes.
With a battleground of that scale? There is potential advantage for the Astartes, especially if the Forest is particularly dense. Not only can that help obscure their approach, but also limits field of fire.
A Marine stomping through the woods would be *loud* he's huge and tall, breaking branches and all that, at night, he would have 0 surprise effect.
Edit: Speaking from personal experience, anyway, as a bulky-ish guy in army kit, I made a hell of a ruckus last night.
Insectum7 wrote: The Marine sits tight and the IG starve. Combat-wise though? The Marine has no chance if the Guard are well led and organized. They could level a nice area of forest, build a fort and gun the Marine down on approach.
Ah ah ah! No leaders, that's not part of the deal. It's 10k regular guard troopers. No commissars, no Company commanders, no primaris Psykers, etc. Against a single Astartes.
Guardsmen aren't idiots. Just because none of them have a Commissioned Rank doesn't mean that they can't figure basic stuff out. There's gonna be a few Rawnes and Corbecs in that 10,000.
Battle Ground - Forest, at least 100 miles across, no especially hostile wildlife or terrain
Deployment - Marine and guard enter from opposite sides
Space Marine - normal gear, armor, bolter, knife, a few grenades
10,000 Imperial guard - normal gear, flak vest, helmet, radio, lasgun, knife, a few grenades, a few days rations, flashlight
Victory - One side wins when all members of the other side are dead, injured or fled the battlefield.
Do I think the marine WILL win? No.
Do I think the marine COULD win? Yes.
Would it make an interesting story? Sure.
Chapter choice matters more than people are giving credit to. An average Space Wolf or Blood Angel will approach this scenario far differently than an average Raven Guard or Raptor. In this scenario the latter's chances honestly aren't too bad given how they tend to approach warfare.
Aren't they? The average guardsman is a poorly educated teenager to twenty something year old with minimal training who was quite possibly conscripted against their will and is sent out to die in some backwater shithole for the glory of the Emperor and is fed enough propaganda to not question it.
The vast majority of the Imperium are I would expect rather stupid. Even most Marines are honestly pretty stupid and only truly portrayed as competent at waging war.
The Imperium is not a great place for fostering intelligent thought.
I don’t think the single marine has a chance against 10,000 guardsmen. I can’t imagine that he’d have more than 100 bolt rounds so he’d quickly run out of ammunition, and would be forced to stab 9900 armed troops. Eventually, the lasfire will eat through the armor or just get a few lucky hits through the gaps.
Anyway, it’s kind of a moot point though because marines and guard have two different roles. A marine doesn’t need to outshoot even 100 guardsmen to be more useful than they are. The marines are not competing with the guard, they are complementing the guard.
There are a plethora of soft factors that make marines way better than their actual firepower would suggest. They have excellent stamina, morale, coordination, speed, and autonomy while having very low logistical needs. Being able to move such a compact but powerful force basically anywhere can weaken the enemy suddenly and unexpectedly. For example, marines could march through toxic sludge for days and not be tired at the end. The guard can’t, no matter how many you send. This could result in destroying generators, fuel depots, rail lines, munitions stores, convoys etc… all of which makes the actual battle much easier to win. Additionally, marines could act as quick reinforcements during a battle. If some ork nobz take a valuable flank, the marines can retake it, and then the guard reinforce it. The marines could then be sent to the next weakened spot.
Finally, marines have extremely good tactical coordination. Since each company has one leader, each part can work together seamlessly. Guard regiments have to cooperate with vastly different regiments to achieve the same effect.
So, even if a marine may only be able to take on a dozen or so enemies at once, they’re actual impact on the battle could be equivalent to 10,000 guardsmen. That said, at the end of the day, the guard will have actually done the most killing, but that’s ok. Marines don’t need to have equivalent firepower to the guard in order to be useful.
Unfortunately, GW seems intent on insisting that marines do a lot of attritional warfare so eh…
Insularum wrote: Digs a hole, buries himself and activates sus-an membrane hibernation for a hundred years or so. Awaken to glorious victory.
If a fight happens though the guard win. Over the course of an immortal-ish life one space marine probably does beat 10,000 Guard level threats, cumulative not simultaneous.
This is my new head canon.
"Brother Glorioso! I hear you single-handedly cleared a planet of Tyranids! How did you do it?"
"All I can say is..." shows off shovel and pillow "...the Codex Astares!"
Aren't they? The average guardsman is a poorly educated teenager to twenty something year old with minimal training who was quite possibly conscripted against their will and is sent out to die in some backwater shithole for the glory of the Emperor and is fed enough propaganda to not question it.
The vast majority of the Imperium are I would expect rather stupid. Even most Marines are honestly pretty stupid and only truly portrayed as competent at waging war.
The Imperium is not a great place for fostering intelligent thought.
I'd disagree on this. Planetary Defense Forces, yeah sure they're mostly conscripts with a professional and elite core.
But the guard have 2 things, first off they're drawn from those elites, then they're hauled halfway across the galaxy, trained and brought into line with Imperial standardization and dropped off far from home. If they're just sent to one planet to wave the flag and provide an Imperial presence to remind the locals who's boss then fine. But if they're on a campaign they'll have fought on several worlds and have far more experience (and varied experience) than any local.
Yeah on the table top IG are the cannon fodder army but in fluff they're like a WWII expeditionary force vs some National Guard reservists.
Unfortunately, GW seems intent on insisting that marines do a lot of attritional warfare so eh…
Yeah that's definitely a problem. The better lore doesn't do that but there's a lot of pretty lousy stuff.
My head canon on this is you don't write diary entries about the day you woke up, went to work and went home. You write about the time you went to work, a power outage hit the entire East Coast and walked 10 miles to get home.
So no one writes a novel about the dozen times the 4th Company dropped onto an enemy camp in the dead of night, killed everyone, got in the drop ship and moved on. You write about that one in a 100 years battle where the 4th Company must hold a pass against an unending tide of Orks and die to a man.
^Yeah that's totally fair, and it's the same sort of reasoning behind the tabletop situations which always see high casualty rates for Marines. Both casualty-high scenarios are basically outlying calamatous situations that the Marines got stuck in for some reason or another.
But every now and then you hear about some brutal multi-year campaign and it's harder to imagine how that can happen without the Marines just dying under massed artillery or something.
One thing to keep in mind is that Chapters prefer to spend decades cultivating neophites then scouts, then Marines.
But during the Heresy they'd just shove some geneseed in the nearest farmer and send him to the front. (At least Chaos did per Solar War). So it might be possible to rebuild in less than three decades if a chapter has to.
On the Lasgun, we also need to keep in mind it’s downside.
Even if it penetrates the armour (lucky shot, or sheer volume), the bolt itself is mostly heat damaged, with some impact trauma. This leaves the wound naturally cauterised. And, provided the wound doesn’t send the victim into medical shock? Far more survivable than a comparable shot from a solid projectile.
That is an advantage to the Marine. Not only are we told they’re hardened to shock (stims and that), but they heal quickly.
So even without the armour’s benefit? It’s going to take a lot of shots to kill the Marine. As as it’s basically never going to be “10,000 shots all at once”? The odds may be an awful lot better than many think.
That depends. Some books have the lasgun self cauterize wounds, others have the heat transfer from the bolt to the target result in blown off limbs. The latter could quickly become a problem, there is such a thing as enough trauma to overwhem a Marine's system
Bobthehero wrote: That depends. Some books have the lasgun self cauterize wounds, others have the heat transfer from the bolt to the target result in blown off limbs. The latter could quickly become a problem, there is such a thing as enough trauma to overwhem a Marine's system
Oh there absolutely is such a thing as enough trauma to overwhelm a Marine, but the core of my point is driving off or injuring the Marine is far from the same as killing him. Whereas even with bare hands, the injuries received by the Guard are going to be….complicated
Whereas a Guardsman might break another’s bone in HTH, a similar injury caused by the sheer strength of an Astartes could be need for amputation.
There’s just such a vast gulf between the injuries each side can suffer and inflict, it has to be considered.
And hey, if we’re sticking to the Forest battleground? There’s nothing to really stop an Astartes free climbing the bigger trees and getting a very literal drop on Guardsmen.
Maybe if we're talking Endor-like trees. Some of the thick forests here don't have trees that would sustain the weight of a Marine, there's some downsides to being big and clad in power armor, after all.
Aren't they? The average guardsman is a poorly educated teenager to twenty something year old with minimal training who was quite possibly conscripted against their will and is sent out to die in some backwater shithole for the glory of the Emperor and is fed enough propaganda to not question it.
The vast majority of the Imperium are I would expect rather stupid. Even most Marines are honestly pretty stupid and only truly portrayed as competent at waging war.
The Imperium is not a great place for fostering intelligent thought.
No. First, poorly educated doesn't equal stupid/poor cognitive ability. Second, many Guard regiments come from things like deathworlds, or are recruited from the underclasses of things like Hiveworlds, I.E. gangers. They'd have considerable survival skills to start with, which are a hell of a lot more useful in a combat situation than the ability to write a thesis on the economics of the Ultima Segmentum. And finally, Guardsmen are not "minimally trained". They're professional soldiers, many with combat experience.
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Gert wrote: Depends on the power setting. Max power would do damage but burns the power cells out much quicker whereas a lower setting gives the Guard more ammo.
Pretty sure if a space marine is charging at you your going to crank that lasgun straight to "max".
As I mentioned earlier, the Regiment’s Homeworld is a significant factor.
Put a Necromundan on a Jungle World and a Catachan in an Underhive, and you’re going to get completely different results than if the deployments were switched.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Power setting? Before or after you’ve wet yourself due to the mind breaking sight of the Marine in action, closing the ground far faster than your brain will allow such a creature to move.
I mean, The Astartes film is canon btw. An entire ship of prepared ambushers with heavy weapons didn't actually kill a single Space Marine. It took a Mcguffin and two highly powerful psykers (Possibly xeno or heretic) to even slow them down. And they really only lived for a few seconds longer than anyone else. Point being, if 5 can storm and kill 100% of the prepared ambushers on a ship, 1 can certainly hold his own against well over a thousand lightly armed and unprepared guardsmen, who would likely suffer intense combat shock when their friends start exploding from mass reactive bolts.
Power setting? Before or after you’ve wet yourself due to the mind breaking sight of the Marine in action, closing the ground far faster than your brain will allow such a creature to move.
Source. . . Guardsmen have been gunning down CSM for decades, not to mention even bigger and faster things. Guardsmen will be trained to fire regardless, and knowing they're fighting such a foe their Lasgun will already be on max.
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I mean, The Astartes film is canon btw. An entire ship of prepared ambushers with heavy weapons didn't actually kill a single Space Marine.
Intelligently, those Marines only fight a few GEQ at a time beyond their initial breach.
Gadzilla666 wrote: And finally, Guardsmen are not "minimally trained". They're professional soldiers, many with combat experience.
Exactly. Imperial Guardsmen are the best soldiers of their homeworld. The soldiers who are just average are still serving in the PDF or in some sub-planetary armies (e.g. hive-city enforcers). From the book Traitor's Rock, it appears that even Cadian whiteshields (conscripts, in tabletop terms) have already undergone grueling training that makes the first half of Full Metal Jacket look like summer camp.
Ferrying soldiers to warzones many lightyears away has to be extremely costly. There's no room on Imperial Navy transport ships for barely-trained amateurs.
Re: close quarters: Even a Marine can only butcher enemies with his combat knife for so long before his power armor's batteries run out of juice.
Also, if there's only one Marine against countless guardsmen, it's a safe bet that the guardsmen can accomplish their actual battlefield objectives simply by going around the Marine. Even if one Marine could theoretically kill, say, 100 guardsmen, he cannot keep all 100 of them busy at the same time.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Power setting? Before or after you’ve wet yourself due to the mind breaking sight of the Marine in action, closing the ground far faster than your brain will allow such a creature to move.
lol are you kidding me? "Can't adjust power setting bc enemy is too scawy"? They're soldiers. The whole point of endless military drills is so that you can act with a cool head and steady hands under circumstances that would make the average person freeze in terror.
Age of Darkness wrote: Transhuman dread. Aximand had heard iterators talk of the condition. He’d heard descriptions of it from regular Army officers too. The sight of an Adeptus Astartes was one thing: taller and broader than a man could ever be, armoured like a demigod. The singularity of purpose was self-evident. An Adeptus Astartes was designed to fight and kill anything that didn’t annihilate it first. If you saw an Adeptus Astartes, you knew you were in trouble. The appearance alone cowed you with fear.
But to see one move. Apparently that was the real thing. Nothing human-shaped should be so fast, so lithe, so powerful, especially not anything in excess of two metres tall and carrying more armour than four normal men could lift. The sight of an Adeptus Astartes was one thing, but the moving fact of one was quite another. The psychologists called it transhuman dread. It froze a man, stuck him to the ground, caused his mind to lock up, made him lose control of bladder and bowel. Something huge and warlike gave pause: something huge and warlike and moving with the speed of a striking snake, that was when you knew that gods moved amongst men, and that there existed a scale of strength and speed beyond anything mortal, and that you were about to die and, if you were really lucking, there might be just enough time to piss yourself first.
Essentially, their presence is so unnatural, the brain struggles to process. And in this example? The Marine is coming for you.
This is a factor people don’t seem to include that often.
Lasgun power settings also aren’t available on all makes and models. Citation for the Citation God, the Inquisitor Rulebook, which first presented variant Lasguns.
And keep in mind Astartes are stupendously rare. The staggering majority of Guardsmen will have never seen one, let alone fought one.
As for their training? I strongly encourage you to track down and enjoy a copy of The Imperial Infantryman’s uplifting primer to get an actual insight into standard Guard training. Here are some select images.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Essentially, their presence is so unnatural, the brain struggles to process. And in this example? The Marine is coming for you.
I mean yeah, if he were coming for me personally, I might crap myself. But there are hundreds of us. We can surround him from all directions and still be several ranks deep. He can't be coming for all of us at the same time.
As for their training? I strongly encourage you to track down and enjoy a copy of The Imperial Infantryman’s uplifting primer to get an actual insight into standard Guard training. Here are some select images.
Isn't it canon that the Primer is considered something of a joke even by the Imperial Guard?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: The backpack has a sub-atomic micro fusion reactor. And Solar cell backup. That’s….not running out of juice anytime soon.
Can I get a source on this? Because in Dark Heresy, a power armor runs out of juice after 1d5 hours. Granted, that's the "civilian" model.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Essentially, their presence is so unnatural, the brain struggles to process. And in this example? The Marine is coming for you.
I mean yeah, if he were coming for me personally, I might crap myself. But there are hundreds of us. We can surround him from all directions and still be several ranks deep. He can't be coming for all of us at the same time.
As for their training? I strongly encourage you to track down and enjoy a copy of The Imperial Infantryman’s uplifting primer to get an actual insight into standard Guard training. Here are some select images.
Isn't it canon that the Primer is considered something of a joke even by the Imperial Guard?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: The backpack has a sub-atomic micro fusion reactor. And Solar cell backup. That’s….not running out of juice anytime soon.
Can I get a source on this? Because in Dark Heresy, a power armor runs out of juice after 1d5 hours. Granted, that's the "civilian" model.
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Stop "citation please" arguing. There are countless examples of Power armor lasting weeks, even months, before needing a recharge. Primaris Marines can go even longer. Just to point to a few examples, Dante, Siege of Baal, Hellsreach, Brothers of the Snake, Many of the Cain Books, and the Reagent's Shadow. Also, on the topic of inability to sustain constant unending melee combat, please reference the same books, where entire Ork Waaaahhhs are held off by space marines fighting off entire hordes of orks with just their fists at times.
You also seem to be under the mis-apprehension that melee gives the edge to the Guardsmen. I don't know what you've gotten into, but Melee goes to the 7' super human with near inexhaustible strength, every time. Again, Helbrecht and several of his Retinue, including a Champion in waiting, are able to engage in literal melee battle with a green tide, for WEEKS. Slaughtering thousands each. A single swing of a SM fist is enough to decapitate a row of base humans. And they don't often miss in the thick of it.
The Primer is considered a joke, any vets will tell the newbies that still believe in it to stop doing so. There's fanart of an alternative to the primer that is much, much better. Filled with propaganda, but actually teaching the user something, and I really wish GW would canonize it, but we can't have nice thing.
There's also plenty of books where transhuman dread is not a thing, people acknowledge they're an extreme threat, but it's not bolter-porn-y ''My dude is so awesome yours are unable to do anything but gak their pants/be in awe of them'' tier bad writting of power spanking. Which, imo, makes a lot of more sense in a setting where Marines are taken down by regular humans often enough.
Again, Helbrecht and several of his Retinue, including a Champion in waiting, are able to engage in literal melee battle with a green tide, for WEEKS. Slaughtering thousands each.
Grimaldus and his retinue of 5 or 6 other Marines were in the process of being overwhelmed by roughly thirty or so Orks in Helsreach, until a platoon of militia-dudes and Andrej saved them, chalk it up to wildly fluctuating books.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Remember the battlefield we’re currently describing. You simply can’t organise the Guard the way you described in such an environment.
Fair. In a narrow set of circumstances that any competent Imperial Guard commander would avoid at all costs, it may be hard for guardsmen to bring their vastly superior numbers to bear. That's when it's time to change tactics, so as to avoid fighting the enemy on their own terms. This isn't a video game where AI enemies just keep pouring mindlessly into the kill zone.
And I'm sorry, but no matter how much canon fluff you quote, I don't believe for a second that Chaos Marines are so scary that the mere sight of one will make scores of trained soldiers simultaneously forget how to use their weapons. Not every guardsman may be Ollanius Pius, but they're still among the top one percent best and bravest of all humankind. Give humans some credit here; you're (presumably) one yourself, after all.
The Primer remains The Primer - the first gleaming most Guardsmen will have that Xenos even exist in the first place.
You mean apart from the "kill the alien" dogma that everyone gets drilled into their skulls since childhood?
Also I imagine veteran guardsmen have quite a bit of knowledge to impart to the new meat.
Guardsmen have pretty basic combat skills. Little in the way of Martial Arts, mostly just massed bayonet charges.
I’m not going to pretend that’s not deadly, because it is. Bayonet charges are effective, and still used in the modern day (though seemingly not standard combat doctrine).
But an Astartes is, as ever, a terrifying foe. Their reaction time is faster than you. Their movements, even in clad in power armour, are faster than yours. Their overall strength, without or without power armour, is sufficient that should you block, you’re probably going to end up on your arse from the impact - and if you trying blocking with a limb, that’s….quite possibly the last useful thing you’ll ever do with said limb.
Yes, you can try to mob him. Of course you can. Bayonets aren’t great for that - but one could always wield the bayonet as a knife (though real world it’s my understanding they’re not terribly well balanced for that sort of combat? Happy to be corrected there)
But even then, the Marine’s reactions are just….ridiculous. Sensors in the armour can help prevent you blindsiding them. Even a casual backhand can shatter bone. Lifting you up and throwing you into your mates is no issue at all for the Marine.
How long do you think the nerve would hold in the face of such decidedly one sided violence? Because all the time he’s casually killing, his vox grill is turning his bellows into literally deafening battlecries. By no means on a Howling Banshee’s level - but still something horrific to happen during a scrap.
If your on the ground? The Marine’s weight alone is likely to squish you let, let alone a deliberate stamp on your chest, flank or spine.
And it’s happening so, so quickly.
Consider this scene, from Ip Man. I won’t embed as whilst not graphic, it’s not for kiddos.
See the blows there? Imagine faster, and only needing to hit you once to deliver quite likely fatal impact trauma. Certainly there’d be little need beyond really putting the wind up the remaining soldiers to do the rapid punches or repeated Noogies. Which the Marine totally would do, for exactly the reason I just gave.
And that’s without a melee weapon. Just just punches, kicks and grapples.
Going back to an earlier comment? Even if your numbers do start to tip the balance. Even if you get him surrounded? Perfectly capable of fighting his way clear, and then withdrawing, on foot, on a speed you can barely comprehend.
People getting told to hate the alien doesn't mean they know what aliens are. Dogma doesn't override base human "fight or flight" and it has been done quite a few times in recent books where human military characters have their entire worldview shattered because not only do the Xenos exist, they're far more dangerous than the sermons and training made them out to be.
If a Guardsman is lucky their officers might be off-world combat veterans or they come from a planet like Cadia or Catachan. You also have to take the Imperial propaganda machine into account when it comes to reporting on the success of soldiers in-universe. The Catachan Devil book sees a newly raised regiment get slaughtered by Orks where most of the Guardsmen barely get a shot off, run and get cut down, or just freeze and die but then are posthumously declared great heroes and their homeworld is recommended to raise many more regiments.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Remember the battlefield we’re currently describing. You simply can’t organise the Guard the way you described in such an environment.
Fair. In a narrow set of circumstances that any competent Imperial Guard commander would avoid at all costs, it may be hard for guardsmen to bring their vastly superior numbers to bear. That's when it's time to change tactics, so as to avoid fighting the enemy on their own terms. This isn't a video game where AI enemies just keep pouring mindlessly into the kill zone.
And I'm sorry, but no matter how much canon fluff you quote, I don't believe for a second that Chaos Marines are so scary that the mere sight of one will make scores of trained soldiers simultaneously forget how to use their weapons. Not every guardsman may be Ollanius Pius, but they're still among the top one percent best and bravest of all humankind. Give humans some credit here; you're (presumably) one yourself, after all.
The Primer remains The Primer - the first gleaming most Guardsmen will have that Xenos even exist in the first place.
You mean apart from the "kill the alien" dogma that everyone gets drilled into their skulls since childhood?
Also I imagine veteran guardsmen have quite a bit of knowledge to impart to the new meat.
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On the choosing of the ground? That’s typically the preserve and indeed much of the potency of Marines.
Rapid insertion, straight to the heart of the foe’s command. Make an almighty mess and slaughter the lot. The Imperial Guard in particular heavily rely on its command structure, for that’s how it’s organised. Disrupt that hierarchy? They become far less effective. And the Marine will know that.
The simple fact of the matter is in terms of planning and logistics? The single Astartes has the advantage. They can survive environments baseline humans can’t - even without their Power Armour’s internal air supply. Which means they can attack from locations and angles the Guard didn’t expect.
As GI Joe told us (well not me, as oddly it never aired in the U.K. to the best of my knowledge)? Knowing is Half The Battle.
Now something even bigger and faster is a Tyranid Warrior. Those actually caused Fear back in 2nd edition. The Marine did not bring any such psychological factor that amounted to enough of a difference on the tabletop.
Goes down in time? Whilst the Guardsmen are watching the Marine gut their fellow at staggering speed and with contemptuous ease?
Marines are not lumbering brutes, despite how they look. They are far faster than a baseline human. The difference in strength means no Hollywood type struggle to do anything vicious.
If you’ve seen Rambo (no, not First Blood. Rambo. The first of the latter day sequels). We see Rambo tear out a throat with his bear hands. It’s clearly an exertion, but he does it. A Marine would barely pause for such a kill.
I mean unless we're degrading the Guardsmen to Servitors, they're going to have emotions. It's not just going to be "Ok chums let's shoot a Space Marine". Fear, rage, confusion, the influence of your religion telling you how wrong it is to shoot an Emperor's Angel, not wanting to hit what is very likely your friends and comrades. It ain't going to be 10k triggers getting pulled at the same time with the exact same accuracy. Heck there's a good chance that some might even shoot other Guardsmen for daring to commit such a heinous act.
Transhumance dread is overhyped IMO. Cadians fight chaos marines on the regular, seeing as they used to guard the freaking Eye of Terror. Catachans fight catachan devils while growing up, as well as other hostile wildlife. Steel legionnaires have been fighting orks for decades. Tallarn held off the Iron Warriors so well they had to get virus bombed and even that didn’t stop them etc…
You have to consider that compared to many xenos and chaos threats, marines are not actually all that special. If guardsmen were incapable of handling even just one marine, then the imperium would have collapsed long ago. Tyranids have plenty of monsters scarier than marines. Aspect warriors are generally equivalent to marines. Orks are orks. Even the tau have some nasty suits at their disposal (could a crisis suit take on 10,000 guardsmen?) And then of course, you have things like the death guard just out there, which presumably is still legion strength.
After it’s clear that the marine is out to kill all of them, any adversion to shooting back is going to go away.
Marine is going to be doing hit and runs. Swoop in, butcher a bunch of guard, and fade before they get over the shock and organize return fire. He’s probably going to take a few chance hits from time to time before breaking contact. How lucky those are will depend if he can burn through all the guard. Eventually the death of a thousand cuts will start degrading his performace. Marines can take a LOT of punishment, and their gear is top notch. But lasguns are not nothing, and get enough hits it something is going to give.
Dandelion wrote: Transhumance dread is overhyped IMO. Cadians fight chaos marines on the regular, seeing as they used to guard the freaking Eye of Terror. Catachans fight catachan devils while growing up, as well as other hostile wildlife. Steel legionnaires have been fighting orks for decades. Tallarn held off the Iron Warriors so well they had to get virus bombed and even that didn’t stop them etc…
You have to consider that compared to many xenos and chaos threats, marines are not actually all that special. If guardsmen were incapable of handling even just one marine, then the imperium would have collapsed long ago. Tyranids have plenty of monsters scarier than marines. Aspect warriors are generally equivalent to marines. Orks are orks. Even the tau have some nasty suits at their disposal (could a crisis suit take on 10,000 guardsmen?) And then of course, you have things like the death guard just out there, which presumably is still legion strength.
Already covered by The Regiment In Question Matters.
Cadia is of course just one planet among millions. Yes, a Cadian either gets over THD quickly, or ends up dead. But that doesn’t change the overall fact of THD - or that the overwhelming majority of Guardsmen will never see an actual Space Marine, let alone have to fight one.
There’s another thing which has popped into my head, and it’s speculation based on known things.
First, Power Armour must have external mics, so when suited and booted the Astartes can hear what non-power armoured allies are saying, and indeed just the general environment.
Second, we know power armour can record combat, for later playback. This would of course be audio visual
Third we know the vox grill can amplify to deafening volume.
Now what i can’t prove or reasonably demonstrate is whether a Marine’s helm has it’s own power source - even if just a battery.
If that last bit is given? There’s the potential for the Marine to commit one big old massacre, recording the whole thing. Set his helm to playback, and bung it somewhere to draw attention, allowing him to ambush.
Even if that last bit isn’t possible (as I said it requires the helm to have some kind of separate batter or capacitator), when fighting the Marine could absolutely blare out the sounds of his last massacre as he tears through your infantry, adding another interesting psychological aspect.
Don’t blame me for having a good mind for fighting dirty
Hell, if the Astartes really wanted to play mind games? Given the Guard would be using Imperial Frequencies? Broadcast it. Broadcast the shrieks of the dying. Do it all day. Every day.
Sure the Guard can shut off their comm units and that. But…there goes their capacity to issue and receive orders.
Imagine, every time you go to pick up your phone, all you get are the death shrieks of comrades and the sound of hideously violent death.
As for changing frequencies? Only need to take out the one squad or platoon to find out what bandwidths they can receive - and therefore what bandwidths they can and can’t transmit on.
That's making a lot of assumptions about gear and frequencies to begin with. With how much separations between the Guard and the Marines, they likely have different frequencies to begin with, and different gear that does not work the same way from one or the other.
I think it's clear here that 1 Space Marine would not be capable of defeating them in a ranged fire fight, just be dint of ammo supply. That being said, there is quite a lot of underestimating of what a Space Marine is capable of.
Transhuman dread is literally a thing. A Pantsshittingly terrifying thing that the overwhelming majority of guard experience the first time they actually meet an angel, let alone one that has chosen to kill them. There is a very good reason that with a few "extreme" situations, Gaunt's mob never actually face off against a space Marine, at least a real one. There is a heavily damaged one they snipe or Bragg takes out with an AC, but other than that, a real standup fight, even with stealth experts like the Ghosts, would go VERY badly for anyone not wearing power armor.
Cain's remarkable feat of actually defeating one in melee combat was just pure propaganda for the news, and it had more to do with a Melta to the face, than his ability with a chain sword.
Can a marine kill 10k guard troops by himself?
Yes.
Would he be able to survive if they all decided to fight back? No.
Well, we know canonically Imperial forces can unify their communications net. Which strongly suggests a shared set of frequencies.
And again, given specific combat roles, it seems more likely the Guard would have restricted access to certain bands, where it’s very much in the ethos and benefit of Marines to have as wide range access to frequencies as possible.
Bobthehero wrote: That's making a lot of assumptions about gear and frequencies to begin with. With how much separations between the Guard and the Marines, they likely have different frequencies to begin with, and different gear that does not work the same way from one or the other.
Also might be too much tech-savy work for your average battle brother. I think a techmarine or some equivalent specialist might be able to pull off some e-warfare stuff, but the gear/smarts is probably not baked into every marine and suit of power armor.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: . There is a heavily damaged one they snipe or Bragg takes out with an AC, but other than that, a real standup fight, even with stealth experts like the Ghosts, would go VERY badly for anyone not wearing power armor.
Wrong, a team of 12 Ghosts ambush 5 CSMs in swamps with the help of locals. The Ghosts survive, the Marines do not (and neither do most other locals). Transhuman dread seems to be mostly in Marine books, as almost any books I've read from the IG point of view mentions nothing of the sort. There's deference and respect, but that's about it.
Well, a Marine must presumably know how to use his own armour. And we know they have some knowledge of maintenance (at least repairs).
Knowing how to switch and scan radio frequencies? Not exactly a deeper mystery of the Omnissiah. Nor does the Marine need to know how works, just that the option is there and how to do it.
The Power Armour itself may well have suitable programming for scanning and tuning in.
Now, if comms are encrypted? Yes I accept that’s gonna need specialist knowledge beyond the 40K equivalent of twiddling knob thing until speaky box make voice.
But the 40K equivalent of twiddling knob tning until speaky box make voice? Definitely within the skill set of a Marine, because they have constant access to their own varied comms channels (squad, company, higher up). Hell I even think there are examples of individual Marines sharing a channel for private conversations.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: . There is a heavily damaged one they snipe or Bragg takes out with an AC, but other than that, a real standup fight, even with stealth experts like the Ghosts, would go VERY badly for anyone not wearing power armor.
Wrong, a team of 12 Ghosts ambush 5 CSMs in swamps with the help of locals. The Ghosts survive, the Marines do not (and neither do most other locals). Transhuman dread seems to be mostly in Marine books, as almost any books I've read from the IG point of view mentions nothing of the sort. There's deference and respect, but that's about it.
It’d be a very short book about Guard if it reflected.
We came, we saw, we froze up, Dave besmirched his uniform, then we all got violently killed by the 8’ armoured psychopath.
Hell, if the Astartes really wanted to play mind games? Given the Guard would be using Imperial Frequencies? Broadcast it. Broadcast the shrieks of the dying. Do it all day. Every day.
Sure the Guard can shut off their comm units and that. But…there goes their capacity to issue and receive orders.
Imagine, every time you go to pick up your phone, all you get are the death shrieks of comrades and the sound of hideously violent death.
As for changing frequencies? Only need to take out the one squad or platoon to find out what bandwidths they can receive - and therefore what bandwidths they can and can’t transmit on.
You been reading the Grimoire Nostromo Doc? Careful. You know what the Nostroman punishment for copyright infringement is.
From which books? I can think of two times where they encounters them, and don't recall specific panic. Besides, I am not saying people wouldn't be scared, but the sort of brain-shutting-down panic that is described doesn't happen.
Also that is widely regarded as one of the worst moments in the entire series. People regularly bring it up when they want to point out how rubbish Space Marines are despite it being a stand out of weirdness.
As well as that, in the first Ghost's book there is a clear moment of THD when a grand total of 3 Iron Warriors tear through a combined infiltration unit made up of Ghosts and Vitrians.
Hell, if the Astartes really wanted to play mind games? Given the Guard would be using Imperial Frequencies? Broadcast it. Broadcast the shrieks of the dying. Do it all day. Every day.
Sure the Guard can shut off their comm units and that. But…there goes their capacity to issue and receive orders.
Imagine, every time you go to pick up your phone, all you get are the death shrieks of comrades and the sound of hideously violent death.
As for changing frequencies? Only need to take out the one squad or platoon to find out what bandwidths they can receive - and therefore what bandwidths they can and can’t transmit on.
You been reading the Grimoire Nostromo Doc? Careful. You know what the Nostroman punishment for copyright infringement is.
Like certain Ad Mech and Mechanicum stuff? When you understand the goodies think nothing of horrific behaviour, it makes the baddies doing stuff the goodies draw a line at far more terrifying!
Example of “fine, just fine” pre-Heresy Mechanicum horror? These bucket heads.
Gather up some works, strap the lid on, bingo instant combat infantry. Oh. And the person inside remains conscious, just….can’t control their own body. Completely sanctioned. And they could churn them out in the millions if needs be.
Yeah, 30k Mechanicum are way cooler than 40k Mechanicus. But your little loyalists is still using 100% 8th Legion tactics. What you're describing is exactly what Night_Lords_do.
Too much headcanon fiddling and selective single source dependence on the last two pages.
Like, there may be a lonely, forgotten paragraph in one novel describing "transhuman dread" but then there are 68 others where battles between humans and astartes resolve with no trace of that phenomenon. Your four paragraphs of teenage fanfic rumination are smoothly superseded by a single contradictory scene from the worst BL book, unfortunately.
I've only read >20 WH40K novels, nearly all from the HH series, and even in that small repository I can recall the blow-by-blow combat regularly contradicting things mentioned here. Just in the single most recent one I've read, "Fallen Angels," you can find:
- glancing lasgun shots temporarily scrambling the helmet/armour senses of marines
- human soldiers landing wounding blows on a charging veteran chaplain
Yet in this thread a marine's armour is gonna stay in pristine condition and he's gonna move like Ip Man? Nah. GW has already hired writers to render the codex-level fluff into omniscient depictions of actual events, and your bolter porn mind palace can't overcome that.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: . There is a heavily damaged one they snipe or Bragg takes out with an AC, but other than that, a real standup fight, even with stealth experts like the Ghosts, would go VERY badly for anyone not wearing power armor.
Wrong, a team of 12 Ghosts ambush 5 CSMs in swamps with the help of locals. The Ghosts survive, the Marines do not (and neither do most other locals). Transhuman dread seems to be mostly in Marine books, as almost any books I've read from the IG point of view mentions nothing of the sort. There's deference and respect, but that's about it.
It’d be a very short book about Guard if it reflected.
We came, we saw, we froze up, Dave besmirched his uniform, then we all got violently killed by the 8’ armoured psychopath.
So long as we get a Marine story that goes
I came, I saw, an artillery shell fell on me and now I am in fifteen places at once
As well as that, in the first Ghost's book there is a clear moment of THD when a grand total of 3 Iron Warriors tear through a combined infiltration unit made up of Ghosts and Vitrians.
Well there's your new worst moment of the book series, eh.
Also when it comes to comms, so a Marines kills an isolated squad. Good. Now he's got access to vox-beads that were used by the squad to speak between them, and a vox-caster to speak to the rest of the unit.
What then? How does he listens in on the bead with his helmet in the way. What does he gain from it? The bead was set to the individual squad frequenciy that squad is dead.
Same questions for the Vox caster, really. Can the Marine even pick up on the frequencies used by the Guard? That's likely, but then again, IRL squad comms don't get picked up by platoon/company wide radios, it's not a stretch to think it's the same for Marine/Guard comms, needing Tech-Priests to bridge the gap. If he has the use the Vox caster, how long till the batteries run out? Will the Vox be reliable enough to interfere with the IG comms? How did he get the frequencies, it's not always the guy with the radio that knows them, it might be one of the radio-tech guy back at camp that set the caster up.
So now we are to believe that SM are the same speed as humans, are likely armored in tissue paper, and every single guard soldier is an experience vet of no less than 4 black crusades.
Or we can believe the lore inherent in the setting. SM are mildly terrifying to general humans. They are strong enough to hold and fire tank mounted human weapons. They are faster than the human eye can perceive.
Without retreating to whataboutisms, I would simply ask, which is more likely true; The lore in a codex/BRB, or the lore presented by an author trying to make his personal protagonist/s look cool?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So now we are to believe that SM are the same speed as humans, are likely armored in tissue paper, and every single guard soldier is an experience vet of no less than 4 black crusades.
Or we can believe the lore inherent in the setting. SM are mildly terrifying to general humans. They are strong enough to hold and fire tank mounted human weapons. They are faster than the human eye can perceive.
Without retreating to whataboutisms, I would simply ask, which is more likely true; The lore in a codex/BRB, or the lore presented by an author trying to make his personal protagonist/s look cool?
How about something inbetween, since we have two conflicting sources? You're also assuming the codex isn't incredibly biased to begin with.
What then? How does he listens in on the bead with his helmet in the way. What does he gain from it? The bead was set to the individual squad frequenciy that squad is dead.
Same questions for the Vox caster, really. Can the Marine even pick up on the frequencies used by the Guard? That's likely, but then again, IRL squad comms don't get picked up by platoon/company wide radios, it's not a stretch to think it's the same for Marine/Guard comms, needing Tech-Priests to bridge the gap. If he has the use the Vox caster, how long till the batteries run out? Will the Vox be reliable enough to interfere with the IG comms? How did he get the frequencies, it's not always the guy with the radio that knows them, it might be one of the radio-tech guy back at camp that set the caster up.
Recover a commbead (though not all Regiments issue them), and you know that frequency is in use. Recover a comm unit, and you can ascertain which band range they’re using.
We know Imperial Forces can share their comm frequencies. Not constantly by any measure, but when the need to coordinate exists, they do so.
Therefore, we know the Marine’s Power Armour’s comms stuff absolutely can be tuned to Guard frequencies.
Done and done. The only thing you’d really need specialist training for is tapping into encrypted channels.
Specifically….
Lexicanum, cribbed from published sources wrote: Auto-senses: Contained in the helmet, these systems include thought-activated communication arrays and audio filters, targeting reticules and range finders, tactical displays and auspex-links, and a host of other features.
Thought-activated. He thinks it, it scans the frequencies. Comm beads and Comm Units simply give you a set range to search.
Those dials can be for a lot of things. Channels, volume. You can enter a frequency linked to a certain channel on the radio, and the only display you'd have is the channel that this radio uses. No need to display frequencies, the operator himself doesn't even need to know the frequencies, only has to know that channel 1 is direct comms to Company, 2 is backup, 3 is direct comms with another platoon, etc.
If a vox goes missing, the IG can switch their frequencies, it would take some logistic work, but soon the Marine wouldn't be able to tap in the comms.
Like, for the radios we get issued? We have to enter the frequencies manually, link them to a channel with an extra tool that we don't head out on patrol with. The radio doesn't not display the frequency in place, only the channel we use. It's got dials, too.
Imperial Guard equipment is, by design? Rugged and simple to use. What it doesn’t need to be is efficient, because they largely rely on overwhelming force via overwhelming numbers.
What the Marine can learn from such a recovered item are the frequencies it can be tuned to. That drastically reduces the channels needing to be scanned - and being thought activated, and not needing to worry about his own incoming comms? Just keep on scanning them.
Sure he can. Grab the receiver. Start tapping the mouthpiece whilst you use your Power Armour to scan. And that’s assuming it’s not written or otherwise displayed on the unit.
It wouldn't be written or displayed, that's a huge breach of security. And he would have millions if not more frequencies to look through, and then he would have to find the right channel to listen in. That leaves him needing to constantly test things from the Vox, also requires the Vox not to run out of battery through the long and tedious process of the scan. The scan is not a magical be-all end-all button that will just reveal the information he needs.
Imperial vox traffic can be encrypted - e.g. marines are forever switching onto private channels to chat to each other.
Encrypted radio traffic (and especially data links, which they also use) aren’t just single frequency transmissions, they’re spread over a whole section of the spectrum in a way that is essentially just noise unless both transmitter and receiver are using the same key.
Switching between pre-programmed channels is more about choosing which key to use then analogue frequency hopping.
That said, this potentially puts the marine at an advantage - if the guardsman has not zeroed the vox or comm bead before dying then the keys will be already coded in and selectable. And if there’s a pass code needed to ‘log in’ then the marine can potentially learn it by eating the operator’s brains.
I love how ridiculously granular those threads can get. Now we're talking about vox frequencies???
My take is that any argument to the effect that a Space Marine can butcher endless waves of guardsmen is very much a "spherical cows in a vacuum" kind of deal which ignores a myriad factors such as supplies, environment, ingenuity, change in tactics, self-preservation, the inexorable march of time, the actual objective of the battle beyond killing the enemy, and so on. "Ah, but Marines can fight smarter/dirtier," you might say. Well, believe it or not, so can Guardsmen. The PC-vs.-NPCs video game mentality on display in this thread doesn't really translate into any realistic or semi-realistic war scenarios.
The fact of the matter is that if a Space Marine finds himself outnumbered 10,000 to one (or even 100 to one), he probably screwed up pretty badly somewhere along the way.
A Marine can conceivably be worth 10,000 men in the wider war effort, if his power is applied in a very surgical way (e.g. as part of a sabotage, assassination or rescue operation). That doesn't mean he could defeat 10,000 men in a fair or unfair fight.
Plus, a single anti-aircraft missile can blast a Thunderhawk out of the sky and send all the Marines inside crashing to their deaths. Lopsided situations, where one side inflicts disproportionate losses to the other, can go both ways. Marines' low numbers means they tend to put a lot of eggs in one basket.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Goes down in time? Whilst the Guardsmen are watching the Marine gut their fellow at staggering speed and with contemptuous ease?
Yah. They shoot him. They shoot him fast because it's readily apparent that they need to shoot him fast. They don't stand there gakking their pants because A: They're trained and B: despite this whole "transhuman dread" thing even the Space Marine centric novels show GEQ and rabble cultists happily firing away at Space Marines loyalist or traitor.
A Marine can conceivably be worth 10,000 men in the wider war effort, if his power is applied in a very surgical way (e.g. as part of a sabotage, assassination or rescue operation). That doesn't mean he could defeat 10,000 men in a fair or unfair fight.
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^this.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Here's how the Space Marine is defeated. The 10,000 Guardsmen split into 1,000 work crews of 10 and dig 1,000 trap-pits that immediately crumble under 600 pounds of Space Marine. Space Marine falls in pit, Guardsmen Frag marine to death.
I love how the goal posts have shifted to the Guardsman being a mix of Stephen Hawking and Jason Bourne, and the Space Marine is suddenly Gomer Pyle. He's dumb as gak but has a gun and is slightly dangerous.
From the Space Marine literally being so fast and strong that Guardsmen piss and gak themselves the moment they start fighting? I think hyperbole meets hyperbole.
Just as Transhuman Dread may be canon, so is a human killing a Chaos Marine with a Chain Sword by accident.
I think I'm starting to fall to the line of preferring Tabletop as a better representation of power than actual lore.
TT is a good indicator, used to be better in previous edition because of initiative and AP and what not, but it was, imo, a good representation that Marines were faster/tougher/stronger than humans, with a large, but not unsurmountable advantage. Same with a lot of things.
Just as Transhuman Dread may be canon, so is a human killing a Chaos Marine with a Chain Sword by accident.
Barely even qualifies as canon based on that one quotation people repeatedly post (and certainly doesn't belong in discussions relating to combat, where, y'know, human vs. human warfare already instills dread, but nevertheless occurs [while also leaving aside the fact that Carnifex Dread, Superheavy Skimmer Dread, Scarab Swarm Dread, Squig Dread, etc., are not concepts parroted by over-literal weirdos]). Unless there's a depiction of it occurring, during battle, written from an omniscient pov, it goes directly into the unreliable narrator bucket, and we're left to understand the concept as mostly applying to interpersonal interactions with astartes, where it is indeed observable in many sources.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: I love how the goal posts have shifted to the Guardsman being a mix of Stephen Hawking and Jason Bourne, and the Space Marine is suddenly Gomer Pyle. He's dumb as gak but has a gun and is slightly dangerous.
Yes. . . the same techniques that primitive humans used to hunt Mammoths with, digging holes, totally the equivalent of Stephen Hawking . . .
Also Space Marines are extremely well trained, but they're not exactly all Archimedes intellects. There's a lot of variation by individual.
I haven't read nearly everything in this topic, but one point that always pops up in my brain when these discussions come up:
What do Space Marines use to kill other (Chaos) Space Marines? (Heavy) bolters, meltas, plasma, missile launchers, krank grenades and power weapons.
What does Guard have plenty of? Exactly these weapons. I mean they have it on a squad level in a lot of regiments. Not all of course, but a lot. I assume that there are anti tank infantry regiments that run around with Krak Grenades on each individual and Rough Riders have at least one Explosive lance tip each.
So while I'm willing to believe that a Space Marines could kill 10.000 Guardsman in naked, unarmed combat and is in a lot of situations worth more tactically, the average Space marine in his average equipment (Power Armor, usual weapons loadout, usual vehicle) would have to be incredibly lucky to kill a 10.000 number of average guardsmen with their average equipment on a battlefield. While those Guardsmen only have to be lucky once.
Also as good as Power armor and Weapons are: I don't know how much punishment the lenses, sensors and rebreather can take. You can't do everything out of ceramite and even lasguns will likely blind a lense after a couple of thousands shots. So the Space Marine will get worse while he slaugthers away... until there comes that lucky plasma shot from the special gunner, the lucky cut from the sarges power sword or the Krak grenade getting slammed in his jet pack outlet...
I think another thing to put into perspective is how the marines have vehicles that don’t benefit from the transhuman dread, impossible to perceive speed or just general invincibility that marine infantry allegedly has. If marines are so awesome at being armored ninjas, what does a Predator tank do? Who needs a Rhino? Just run there, it’ll be faster and safer. What do dreadnoughts actually bring to the table? Even the bolt gun is unnecessary, apparently.
Elaborating on my above comment: lets assume (pretty conservatively) that 1 in 10 sergants has a power weapon OR plasma pistol, 1 in 10 squads has a heavy weapon and one in 10 squads has a special weapon that is suited to combat marines (Plasma, Melta, Grenade launcher with Krak grenades).
That would sum up to 100 Heavy weapons, 100 plasma/melta guns, 50 Power weapon, 50 plasma pistols. And each one of those has to be lucky only once...
And that is a very conservative apptoximation leaving out dedicated Veteran Squads, Heavy Weapons teams and giving them no vehicles at all...
This is where hyperbole gets dangerous. If 1 Custodian is worth a 100 SM, and 1 SM is worth a 100 Guard soldiers, does that make the Dark Eldar guy that made a chair out of Custodian Corpses worth 1 million guard? No.
Just by sheer weight of numbers, the SM obviously loses. But just by the fact that we are even having this discussion alone, you are granting the fact that SM are THAT good. That is the level you have to put them on to even start the thread.
Can 1 Custodian take on 10000 Guard? Possibly. Because you have to grant the Custodian's lore.
Insectum7 wrote: Frankly I don't see how a Custodes could be worth 100 Marines. They seem prime for close combat but as an army they seem barely functional.
Jesus H Lucifer, are you just being a contrarian to every single point in the thread? What is the point of your posts? You don't seem to be taking a side, just calling everyone wrong for no reason.
According to Imperial Law, every battle the Custodes participate in is listed as a victory regardless of outcome. Therefore Custodes win against everything otherwise its illegal.
Pyroalchi wrote: What do Space Marines use to kill other (Chaos) Space Marines? (Heavy) bolters, meltas, plasma, missile launchers, krank grenades and power weapons.
What does Guard have plenty of? Exactly these weapons.
Very good point. The best Imperial Guard weapons are every bit as powerful as the basic Space Marine weapons, and the basic Space Marine weapons are good enough to kill most things, including Chaos Marines. In fact it should put an end to this stupid argument, unless someone tries to claim that Imperial Guard meltaguns can't melt steel beams power armor.
"Space Marines too scawy" is just plain BS. Yes, the sight of a Space Marine in combat may be unsettling, but so are slavering tyranid monsters, clanking ork walkers, and a million other things that Guardsmen frequently square off against. Guardsmen may be comparatively weak but they are no cowards. If you can hold the line against a Carnifex, you can hold the line against a Space Marine.
Insectum7 wrote: Frankly I don't see how a Custodes could be worth 100 Marines. They seem prime for close combat but as an army they seem barely functional.
Jesus H Lucifer, are you just being a contrarian to every single point in the thread? What is the point of your posts? You don't seem to be taking a side, just calling everyone wrong for no reason.
Well, why is a Custodes worth 100 Space Marines? You posted it, and I'm just curious as to why that would be the case. They seem marginally better for force concentration in CC and that's about it in terms of combat advantage. Otherwise they seem more like a figurehead organization.
As for "sides" I think I've explained my position pretty well so far. A Marine might be worth 10000 Guardsmen within the full context of their modus operandi and typical assets in theatre, but the fan-wankery of a Marine soloing 10000 Guardsmen is just crap.
Pyroalchi wrote: I haven't read nearly everything in this topic, but one point that always pops up in my brain when these discussions come up:
What do Space Marines use to kill other (Chaos) Space Marines? (Heavy) bolters, meltas, plasma, missile launchers, krank grenades and power weapons.
What does Guard have plenty of? Exactly these weapons. I mean they have it on a squad level in a lot of regiments. Not all of course, but a lot. I assume that there are anti tank infantry regiments that run around with Krak Grenades on each individual and Rough Riders have at least one Explosive lance tip each.
So while I'm willing to believe that a Space Marines could kill 10.000 Guardsman in naked, unarmed combat and is in a lot of situations worth more tactically, the average Space marine in his average equipment (Power Armor, usual weapons loadout, usual vehicle) would have to be incredibly lucky to kill a 10.000 number of average guardsmen with their average equipment on a battlefield. While those Guardsmen only have to be lucky once.
Also as good as Power armor and Weapons are: I don't know how much punishment the lenses, sensors and rebreather can take. You can't do everything out of ceramite and even lasguns will likely blind a lense after a couple of thousands shots. So the Space Marine will get worse while he slaugthers away... until there comes that lucky plasma shot from the special gunner, the lucky cut from the sarges power sword or the Krak grenade getting slammed in his jet pack outlet...
You beat me to it, I was thinking "what about krak grenades" when the whole melee discussion was going on.
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Pyroalchi wrote: Elaborating on my above comment: lets assume (pretty conservatively) that 1 in 10 sergants has a power weapon OR plasma pistol, 1 in 10 squads has a heavy weapon and one in 10 squads has a special weapon that is suited to combat marines (Plasma, Melta, Grenade launcher with Krak grenades).
That would sum up to 100 Heavy weapons, 100 plasma/melta guns, 50 Power weapon, 50 plasma pistols. And each one of those has to be lucky only once...
And that is a very conservative apptoximation leaving out dedicated Veteran Squads, Heavy Weapons teams and giving them no vehicles at all...
Perhaps a bit of a nitpick, but I don't think plasmaguns are common enough to warrant that many in 10k guardsmen and I don't know how lore-friendly the TT distribution of special weapons are. That said, I do think there'd be enough non-plasma special weapons on hand in a typical regiment to make them worth considering (assuming we're not going "only lasguns").
Not sure what SM might have as far as anti-hoard weaponry (if we are considering guardsmen having their specialized man-portable equipment, seems like it might also be interesting to see what might happen if the SM has specialized equipment). Flamer comes to mind, but that seems like it might be more of a danger than a help for the lone SM.
Personally, I'm on the side of thinking the 10k guard will win unless the circumstances heavily favor the SM.
To be fair (and as many have already said) picking the battle that heavily favors the SM is what the SM would do. That said, we could also consider whether the guard chain of command would be able to out maneuver the lone SM (in b4 the SM just kills the chain of command before they can choose...what...do you hate lore discussions or something?)
And finally (on a silly note), if one of those guardsmen happens to be Sly Marbo, we all know that the lone SM would sacrifice himself rather than commit patricide
Asenion wrote: There is a Japanese term for this " Duty has the weight of a mountain, while death is as light as a feather." The Emperor, above all, has earned a reprieve.
I can't imagine the Emperor's ego would let him actually give a gak about the psykers he noms. Dante, on the other hand, probably has more than a bit of a death wish.
Anti-orbital batteries aren’t the purview of the Guard. That’d be the Ad-Mech. And even if they’d taken over the battery? A Guardsman isn’t going to know how to use it.
Are they now? That doesn't match up with what we know of the setting. If that were true, I'm sure you'd have some evidence in the books you could cite in your favor?
The PDF and Imperial Guard simply cannot order the Ad Mech about. Even their commanders have to liaise with the Priesthood, who are by no means beholden to fulfil any request. The PDF and Guard will have no idea how to activate the weapons without the Ad Mech, because they’re not trained or educated in the Mysteries of the Omnissiah.
A Space Marine on an Astartes vessel, crewed by Chapter Serfs? Even if they’re simply a Battle Brother? Obeyed without question, barring a higher ranking Marine being in charge.
Enginseers are seconded to IG regiments and bound to follow their commander's orders. Imperial Guard regiments have AdMech personnel in them.
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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: A Chapter Master (the required One Space Marine) is begging no-one. He is ordering his fleet into action. Those aren’t allies. They are Chapter resources. His to direct as he sees fit. Ergo, a single Space Marine can wipe out entire planets, as they have the authority and resources to order Exterminatus if they so wish - and no other Space Marine, though they’d be present, would take an active part of that, as they don’t crew the fleet in that manner.
Considering that certain Imperial Guard commanders have been given command over fleet assets and forces strong enough to conquer entire sectors at various times (Macharius, Creed, Yarrick, etc) the same would apply in reverse. Sorry, not sorry, you're twisting the truth and nobody here's taking you seriously.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Now, as for Vraks. Just been skim reading Vol 1, and whilst yes it has Defence Lasers, I’m yet to read where Guardsmen or PDF are operating them. If you could provide a volume and page ref, that’d be appreciated.
Where does it say they're operated by AdMech personnel?
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: It doesn't really matter though, because the Departament Munitorum would label them traitor guard for attacking a space marine, and then literally everyone would be executed, so in a way, the space marine wins?
You attack a space marine, they ALL die, no ifs ands, or butts. just straight to the Blams.
That's totally what happened during the Badab War, amirite?
Nah.
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Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Power setting? Before or after you’ve wet yourself due to the mind breaking sight of the Marine in action, closing the ground far faster than your brain will allow such a creature to move.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: . There is a heavily damaged one they snipe or Bragg takes out with an AC, but other than that, a real standup fight, even with stealth experts like the Ghosts, would go VERY badly for anyone not wearing power armor.
Wrong, a team of 12 Ghosts ambush 5 CSMs in swamps with the help of locals. The Ghosts survive, the Marines do not (and neither do most other locals). Transhuman dread seems to be mostly in Marine books, as almost any books I've read from the IG point of view mentions nothing of the sort. There's deference and respect, but that's about it.
Yeah, the fear is more the fear of the Astartes as being terrifyingly efficient troops.
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So now we are to believe that SM are the same speed as humans, are likely armored in tissue paper, and every single guard soldier is an experience vet of no less than 4 black crusades.
No, stop strawmanning people you ninny.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Or we can believe the lore inherent in the setting. SM are mildly terrifying to general humans. They are strong enough to hold and fire tank mounted human weapons. They are faster than the human eye can perceive.
Humans are faster than the human eye can perceive, too, in the case of the fastest punchers in the world. Space Marines can't *run* faster than the human eye can perceive because the human eye can perceive things moving hundreds of miles an hour.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Without retreating to whataboutisms, I would simply ask, which is more likely true; The lore in a codex/BRB, or the lore presented by an author trying to make his personal protagonist/s look cool?
None of the codexes jerk Astartes off to the degree you are.
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FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Can 1 Custodian take on 10000 Guard? Possibly. Because you have to grant the Custodian's lore.
No. The Custodes are clearly high on their own farts. They've been defeated by clowns and the Sons of Horus (now Black Legion) before. But they don't write it down or talk about it.
The Guard are the best land-based fighting force the Imperium has. Not by headcount, of course, but by absolute power. If you need something or someone on a planet flattened and aren't willing to use voidships to do it? Use Guard artillery. Artillery wins wars.
1 Custodes can't defeat ten thousand guardsman in a battle. Pprobably not even 100, depending on what the guardsman are armed with and whether they have any armor. But that's fine, because they don't need to. That's not their job. Custodes are the fantasy/Sci Fi version of CIA wetworks teams who have goals that are both military and political.
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Insectum7 wrote: Frankly I don't see how a Custodes could be worth 100 Marines. They seem prime for close combat but as an army they seem barely functional.
They're not. Also they seem to lack that spark of humanity that Astartes have that pushes them to heroism.
Very good point. The best Imperial Guard weapons are every bit as powerful as the basic Space Marine weapons, and the basic Space Marine weapons are good enough to kill most things, including Chaos Marines. In fact it should put an end to this stupid argument, unless someone tries to claim that Imperial Guard meltaguns can't melt steel beams power armor.
Actually Astartes weapons are typically higher quality than what the Guard have access too, but it's a matter of degree and not kind. An old AK-47 is still an assault rifle and will still kill you just fine, even if it isn't as fancy as a modern M27.
"Space Marines too scawy" is just plain BS. Yes, the sight of a Space Marine in combat may be unsettling, but so are slavering tyranid monsters, clanking ork walkers, and a million other things that Guardsmen frequently square off against. Guardsmen may be comparatively weak but they are no cowards. If you can hold the line against a Carnifex, you can hold the line against a Space Marine.
Agreed.
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DeadliestIdiot wrote: Perhaps a bit of a nitpick, but I don't think plasmaguns are common enough to warrant that many in 10k guardsmen and I don't know how lore-friendly the TT distribution of special weapons are. That said, I do think there'd be enough non-plasma special weapons on hand in a typical regiment to make them worth considering (assuming we're not going "only lasguns").
Definitely depends on the regiment; plasma guns in particular are more common among Cadian (and presumably now Cadian diaspora) regiments. They require more specialized training to not cook yourself than the other fire support weapons.
Pyroalchi wrote: Elaborating on my above comment: lets assume (pretty conservatively) that 1 in 10 sergants has a power weapon OR plasma pistol, 1 in 10 squads has a heavy weapon and one in 10 squads has a special weapon that is suited to combat marines (Plasma, Melta, Grenade launcher with Krak grenades).
That would sum up to 100 Heavy weapons, 100 plasma/melta guns, 50 Power weapon, 50 plasma pistols. And each one of those has to be lucky only once...
And that is a very conservative apptoximation leaving out dedicated Veteran Squads, Heavy Weapons teams and giving them no vehicles at all...
Perhaps a bit of a nitpick, but I don't think plasmaguns are common enough to warrant that many in 10k guardsmen and I don't know how lore-friendly the TT distribution of special weapons are. That said, I do think there'd be enough non-plasma special weapons on hand in a typical regiment to make them worth considering (assuming we're not going "only lasguns").
Actually we can shed a little light on the commonality of Special weapons with the 3.5/4th ed IG codex, which lists a number of IG regiments and their proclivities, doctrines and uniforms. One of the categories is "Preferred Special Weapon". Two out of the twelve regiments listed have "Plasma Gun", (Tallarn and Harakoni Warhawks). No specific numbers are listed, but the fact that regiments can have Plasma (or Melta) as "preferred" would suggest that the frequency of Plasma Guns could be pretty dang high.
Insectum7 wrote: Well, why is a Custodes worth 100 Space Marines? You posted it, and I'm just curious as to why that would be the case. They seem marginally better for force concentration in CC and that's about it in terms of combat advantage. Otherwise they seem more like a figurehead organization.
As for "sides" I think I've explained my position pretty well so far. A Marine might be worth 10000 Guardsmen within the full context of their modus operandi and typical assets in theatre, but the fan-wankery of a Marine soloing 10000 Guardsmen is just crap.
Because they are strong and fast enough to tear through groups of average Marines as easily as Marines do guardsmen or even better, have the best equipment the Imperium can muster, and to boot also are much better shots and with much better guns than Marines.
1,000 Custodians killed over 100,000 Orks led by Gharkull Blackfang in moments. Valdor with a squad of Custodians cut through hundreds of Thousand Sons without suffering a single injury in the Battle of Prospero.
Your beef with Custodes is kind of amusing but sadly not especially backed up by the fluff. You can find a few counter examples sure, but Custodes are considerably superior to Astartes. As good as 100 of them? Idk where that claim comes from per say but there could be an argument for it.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Without retreating to whataboutisms, I would simply ask, which is more likely true; The lore in a codex/BRB, or the lore presented by an author trying to make his personal protagonist/s look cool?
None of the codexes jerk Astartes off to the degree you are.
lol
Also let's not pretend Codex writers are any more objective about their faction than Black Library authors are about their protags. A lot of 40k lore was written by geeks trying to one-up one another about "who would win in a fight". You can't expect any kind of consistency. That's why it's important to take it all with a grain of salt and apply some common sense.
Common sense says three things:
1. Guardsmen have access to guns that can penetrate power armor.
2. Space Marines may be badass, but they cannot dodge bullets or beams like f***ing Neo.
3. Ergo, a Guardsman with the right gun, at the right place, at the right time, could take down a Space Marine with relative ease.
Of course, in 40k lore, Space Marines are protected not only by power armor but also, frequently, by plot armor. And even a cyclonic torpedo can't punch a hole through plot armor.
Very good point. The best Imperial Guard weapons are every bit as powerful as the basic Space Marine weapons, and the basic Space Marine weapons are good enough to kill most things, including Chaos Marines. In fact it should put an end to this stupid argument, unless someone tries to claim that Imperial Guard meltaguns can't melt steel beams power armor.
Actually Astartes weapons are typically higher quality than what the Guard have access too, but it's a matter of degree and not kind. An old AK-47 is still an assault rifle and will still kill you just fine, even if it isn't as fancy as a modern M27.
Sorry, I meant to say that IG special and heavy weapons (plasma, melta and so on) are at least as powerful as SM boltguns and bolt pistols. If a SM boltgun can kill a Chaos Marine, so can an IG meltagun.
Sorry, I meant to say that IG special and heavy weapons (plasma, melta and so on) are at least as powerful as SM boltguns and bolt pistols. If a SM boltgun can kill a Chaos Marine, so can an IG meltagun.
Good point about the AK-47, though.
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Ah ok, sure. I was comparing, say, an IG heavy bolter vs. an Astartes heavy bolter. The Astartes version is likely to be a bit fancier and better maintained, but they still are high RoFrpg launchers.
Pyroalchi wrote: Elaborating on my above comment: lets assume (pretty conservatively) that 1 in 10 sergants has a power weapon OR plasma pistol, 1 in 10 squads has a heavy weapon and one in 10 squads has a special weapon that is suited to combat marines (Plasma, Melta, Grenade launcher with Krak grenades).
That would sum up to 100 Heavy weapons, 100 plasma/melta guns, 50 Power weapon, 50 plasma pistols. And each one of those has to be lucky only once...
And that is a very conservative apptoximation leaving out dedicated Veteran Squads, Heavy Weapons teams and giving them no vehicles at all...
Perhaps a bit of a nitpick, but I don't think plasmaguns are common enough to warrant that many in 10k guardsmen and I don't know how lore-friendly the TT distribution of special weapons are. That said, I do think there'd be enough non-plasma special weapons on hand in a typical regiment to make them worth considering (assuming we're not going "only lasguns").
Actually we can shed a little light on the commonality of Special weapons with the 3.5/4th ed IG codex, which lists a number of IG regiments and their proclivities, doctrines and uniforms. One of the categories is "Preferred Special Weapon". Two out of the twelve regiments listed have "Plasma Gun", (Tallarn and Harakoni Warhawks). No specific numbers are listed, but the fact that regiments can have Plasma (or Melta) as "preferred" would suggest that the frequency of Plasma Guns could be pretty dang high.
Thanks for point me to that...now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go lose myself in the old IG codices
2. Space Marines may be badass, but they cannot dodge bullets or beams like f***ing Neo.
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I could probably find you several dozen examples of them doing just that. I can think of at least one example of a human doing it (Eisenhorn).
Hate it all you want but it isn't like claims like that came out of nowhere. Lucius the Eternal in basically every book he appears in, Argel Tal in The First Heretic, the Ultramarines sergeant whose name I forgot in Know No Fear, gak really does happen all the time.
Yeah, not gonna lie. There are countless examples of Space Marines being fast enough to dodge projectiles. The rational for most of the SM hyperbole stems from the fact that a small team of them can completely overwhelm and destroy much larger, harder targets, IE Traitor Guard HQs (Reagents Shadow), boarding actions on space hulks(Cain Books), or holding off an entire Ork WAAAHHH (Grimaldus) or storm the HQ and kill a small band of Heretic Marines (Brothers of the Snake)
If only 5-7 can do these, then what can a single one do? Well, he can take out the entire raiding party of Dark Eldar by himself with just a combat knife and a bolter (Brothers of the Snake) or get stepped on by a literal titan, and shrug it off. (https://pastebin.com/cUPVJrju (Not sure the book))
Automatically Appended Next Post: Cato Sicarius won a starring contest with a helmet in the armory.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Yeah, not gonna lie. There are countless examples of Space Marines being fast enough to dodge projectiles. The rational for most of the SM hyperbole stems from the fact that a small team of them can completely overwhelm and destroy much larger, harder targets, IE Traitor Guard HQs (Reagents Shadow), boarding actions on space hulks(Cain Books), or holding off an entire Ork WAAAHHH (Grimaldus) or storm the HQ and kill a small band of Heretic Marines (Brothers of the Snake)
If only 5-7 can do these, then what can a single one do? Well, he can take out the entire raiding party of Dark Eldar by himself with just a combat knife and a bolter (Brothers of the Snake) or get stepped on by a literal titan, and shrug it off. (https://pastebin.com/cUPVJrju (Not sure the book))
Automatically Appended Next Post: Cato Sicarius won a starring contest with a helmet in the armory.
Except there's much more material that contradicts this and is more restrained. So we go with the more sensible examples. You also haven't addressed all the outright lying you were doing about IG command structure, anti-orbital emplacements, and so on earlier in the thread.
Dodging bullets, nah. Successfully evading the firer's field of fire? Sure.
Keep in mind that this is also heroic fantasy, so Imperial Guard Hero > Space Marine or even Custodes, even if regular Space Marine > regular Guardsman.
Keep in mind that this is also heroic fantasy, so Imperial Guard Hero > Space Marine or even Custodes, even if regular Space Marine > regular Guardsman.
This is true, and examples like Straken prove this.
However, I interpreted the thread as not featuring "hero" units. Everyone is just a relatively average example of their faction.
2. Space Marines may be badass, but they cannot dodge bullets or beams like f***ing Neo.
.
I could probably find you several dozen examples of them doing just that. I can think of at least one example of a human doing it (Eisenhorn).
Hate it all you want but it isn't like claims like that came out of nowhere. Lucius the Eternal in basically every book he appears in, Argel Tal in The First Heretic, the Ultramarines sergeant whose name I forgot in Know No Fear, gak really does happen all the time.
lolwhut
Unless they have precognition like Jedi, it would be physically (as in the laws of physics) impossible for them to see the beam of an energy weapon coming, let alone dodge it. Is Eisenhorn a psyker? If so, that would likely explain how he did it.
As for plain ol' bullets, they move faster than the speed of sound. I don't care how good Space Marines' technology and biological modifications are... a being of flesh and blood cannot move fast enough to dodge a bullet that has already left the muzzle of the gun. A peregrine falcon dives at about 300 kph, which is less than one third of the speed of sound, and it doesn't reach that speed instantly. The kind of motion required to dodge even a single bullet would likely involve G-forces capable of destroying any carbon-based lifeform at a cellular level.
And even if Space Marines could indeed dodge a bullet (as opposed to merely evading the field of fire, as Hecaton says), a steady stream of gunfire from several shooters is another story. Those mfers are eight feet tall and very broad... How do you propose that they find, through the hail of bullets, a gap large enough to fit in?
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Um, Cain books also said he defeats a Black Legionnaire in martial combat....And an ork Warboss. As had been pointed out to me several times, Cain books are not a source of fact.
(I don't personally agree with your past statement regarding the lorefulness of the Cain series, but I figured it was worth reminding you of it. I try to avoid being vindictive, but sometimes I can't resist.)
Insectum7 wrote: Well, why is a Custodes worth 100 Space Marines? You posted it, and I'm just curious as to why that would be the case. They seem marginally better for force concentration in CC and that's about it in terms of combat advantage. Otherwise they seem more like a figurehead organization.
As for "sides" I think I've explained my position pretty well so far. A Marine might be worth 10000 Guardsmen within the full context of their modus operandi and typical assets in theatre, but the fan-wankery of a Marine soloing 10000 Guardsmen is just crap.
Because they are strong and fast enough to tear through groups of average Marines as easily as Marines do guardsmen or even better, have the best equipment the Imperium can muster, and to boot also are much better shots and with much better guns than Marines.
1,000 Custodians killed over 100,000 Orks led by Gharkull Blackfang in moments. Valdor with a squad of Custodians cut through hundreds of Thousand Sons without suffering a single injury in the Battle of Prospero.
Your beef with Custodes is kind of amusing but sadly not especially backed up by the fluff. You can find a few counter examples sure, but Custodes are considerably superior to Astartes. As good as 100 of them? Idk where that claim comes from per say but there could be an argument for it.
Get me a quote for the 1000 Custodes kill 100,000 Orks in "moments". Like, any details on how that went down exactly?
And as noted here and in other threads, fluff is all over the place. On the table Custodes are marginally better than a Terminator, and like a Terminator much of their advantage comes from equipment. You get a bunch of Terminators together and they're capable of doing great things too. I just don't see the niche Custodes occupy as being particularly special, they seem to do the same job as Marines from a strategic point of view, and they can't concentrate force much more than Marines can through Terminators.
Keep in mind that this is also heroic fantasy, so Imperial Guard Hero > Space Marine or even Custodes, even if regular Space Marine > regular Guardsman.
This is true, and examples like Straken prove this.
However, I interpreted the thread as not featuring "hero" units. Everyone is just a relatively average example of their faction.
Lol, sure. That's why you bring up:
Void__Dragon wrote: . . . .Lucius the Eternal in basically every book he appears in, Argel Tal in The First Heretic, the Ultramarines sergeant whose name I forgot in Know No Fear, gak really does happen all the time.
Just regular shmoes like Lucius the Eternal, eh?
And Know No Fear being one of the few BL novels I've read, I don't recal any "neo-dodging" by a UM Sergeant.
Insectum7 wrote: Get me a quote for the 1000 Custodes kill 100,000 Orks in "moments". Like, any details on how that went down exactly?
And as noted here and in other threads, fluff is all over the place. On the table Custodes are marginally better than a Terminator, and like a Terminator much of their advantage comes from equipment. You get a bunch of Terminators together and they're capable of doing great things too. I just don't see the niche Custodes occupy as being particularly special, they seem to do the same job as Marines from a strategic point of view, and they can't concentrate force much more than Marines can through Terminators.
Yup. The Custodes fanbase is... a bit special. From hyperbolic interpretations of their chosen golden bois's power level that outstrip those of Astartes, to banning anyone from their Facebook group who said their codex would be good instead of underpowered, to the unsubstantiated meme that Valdor could defeat primarchs one on one...
I guarantee that situation didn't go down like the poster you replied to depicted it, but that's par for the course for them.
Custodes can't be the equal of 100 Astartes in any meaningful way for the setting to make sense, or the wargame. They've been handed two meaningful defeats, first by the Sons of Horus, then by Harlequins, and of course they didn't write those down, so they probably had more than that on Old Terra.
Insectum7 wrote: Get me a quote for the 1000 Custodes kill 100,000 Orks in "moments". Like, any details on how that went down exactly?
And as noted here and in other threads, fluff is all over the place. On the table Custodes are marginally better than a Terminator, and like a Terminator much of their advantage comes from equipment. You get a bunch of Terminators together and they're capable of doing great things too. I just don't see the niche Custodes occupy as being particularly special, they seem to do the same job as Marines from a strategic point of view, and they can't concentrate force much more than Marines can through Terminators.
Yup. The Custodes fanbase is... a bit special. From hyperbolic interpretations of their chosen golden bois's power level that outstrip those of Astartes, to banning anyone from their Facebook group who said their codex would be good instead of underpowered, to the unsubstantiated meme that Valdor could defeat primarchs one on one...
I guarantee that situation didn't go down like the poster you replied to depicted it, but that's par for the course for them.
Custodes can't be the equal of 100 Astartes in any meaningful way for the setting to make sense, or the wargame. They've been handed two meaningful defeats, first by the Sons of Horus, then by Harlequins, and of course they didn't write those down, so they probably had more than that on Old Terra.
That custodes attitude is basically what everyone else has had to deal with regarding marine fanbois for 20 years and what this thread is about.
If people can see why custodes aren't that ridiculous, then they can understand whay people don't think marines are that ridiculous either.
Insectum7 wrote: Get me a quote for the 1000 Custodes kill 100,000 Orks in "moments". Like, any details on how that went down exactly?
Sure thing.
"Only the Emperor and his inner circle know their exact number. Certainly only a thousand have ever been seen together at any one time, and then only once at the famous Battle of Gyros-Thravian, fought during the Great Crusade against the ork warlord Gharkhul Blackfang and his vast greenskin horde.
The Primarchs Horus, Rogal Dorn, and Mortarion and their legions were vastly outnumbered and close to defeat when the Emperor led an attack from his golden battle barge, the Bucephalus. At the head of a thousand Custodians, the Emperor struck at the very heart of the Ork horde, confronting Gharkhul atop a towering Gargant. As the Emperor decapitated the giant, black-skinned ork, the Custodians laid waste to the Warlord’s prime warriors. It is said that within moments over a hundred thousand greenskins died, and the Waaagh! was broken. Legend has it that only three Custodians died at the battle, their names enshrined forever, engraved on the Emperors armour.” "
–The Horus Heresy: Visions of Darkness, Page 18
And no, before the bad faith arguments come, it is said the Custodians laid waste to the Warlord's prime warriors as the Emperor was killing Gharkhul so this was their feat, not the Emperor's, and given the description of them being "Prime Warriors" it was likely these were mostly Nobz or better that were slain.
You could take the cop-out "myths and legends" approach to dismissing it but that reasoning applies to every source except direct narrative ones like BL which you types get so upset about when brought up. Which is why I deliberately only brought up non-BL fluff.
And as noted here and in other threads, fluff is all over the place.
This is a cop-out. Yes, you can indeed find excerpts of a Custodian (albeit a crippled and weak one) getting killed by a World Eater punching through his chest. But there is definitely fluff which supports the Custodes being far superior to Astartes and bluntly there's a lot more supporting that than the alternative, and your assertion that they are barely functional as an army borders on complete fantasy. You just don't like them lol.
On the table Custodes are marginally better than a Terminator, and like a Terminator much of their advantage comes from equipment.
Never said it didn't. So what?
You get a bunch of Terminators together and they're capable of doing great things too. I just don't see the niche Custodes occupy as being particularly special, they seem to do the same job as Marines from a strategic point of view, and they can't concentrate force much more than Marines can through Terminators.
The Imperium can definitely do without the Custodes far better than it could the Astartes that is true, though the Custodes do have a niche of being far more resistant to the effects of Chaos than everyone but the Grey Knights.
Lol, sure. That's why you bring up:
Cite me bringing it up in the context of the thread topic itself? I never even implied in my original post that a random TacMarine would be parrying projectile fire while fighting.
Just regular shmoes like Lucius the Eternal, eh?
And Know No Fear being one of the few BL novels I've read, I don't recal any "neo-dodging" by a UM Sergeant.
Technically accurate, but it does feature Marines processing incredible amounts of information in a nanosecond and the sergeant in particular stabbing a Word Bearer in the time span of a microsecond. Not literally dodging bullets, but moving much faster than the speed of sound.
Unless they have precognition like Jedi, it would be physically (as in the laws of physics) impossible for them to see the beam of an energy weapon coming, let alone dodge it. Is Eisenhorn a psyker? If so, that would likely explain how he did it.
Let's not pretend that 40k is at all consistent on what lasguns actually do. But yes, I would actually also prefer that they are literally lasers and as such Marines could not avoid them.
As for plain ol' bullets, they move faster than the speed of sound. I don't care how good Space Marines' technology and biological modifications are... a being of flesh and blood cannot move fast enough to dodge a bullet that has already left the muzzle of the gun. A peregrine falcon dives at about 300 kph, which is less than one third of the speed of sound, and it doesn't reach that speed instantly. The kind of motion required to dodge even a single bullet would likely involve G-forces capable of destroying any carbon-based lifeform at a cellular level.
A peregrine falcon is also considerably more fragile than you are, much less a Space Marine. There are skydivers who have literally broken the sound barrier and survived unharmed. And while they did benefit from being higher in the atmosphere and experiencing less drag they also are considerably less durable and not nearly as well protected as a Marine is.
Let us not also forget that Eldar, who are more fragile than Marines, are shown to bullet-time even more consistently.
And even if Space Marines could indeed dodge a bullet (as opposed to merely evading the field of fire, as Hecaton says), a steady stream of gunfire from several shooters is another story. Those mfers are eight feet tall and very broad... How do you propose that they find, through the hail of bullets, a gap large enough to fit in?
.
Not saying it's not another story, though bluntly most of the bullet-timing in their stories is less them dodging them like Neo (that's more Lucius' thing) and more than deflecting them with their swords.
Everyone is so argumentative (probably because of Marine envy, a common ailment the fandom has) but all I've said is that considering how often it does in fact happen in the stories don't be surprised when people bring it up. It actually occurring regularly in the text is a far more compelling argument than your pseudo-intellectual attempts to reason away the things that have already happened numerous times in the fluff.
Yup. The Custodes fanbase is... a bit special. From hyperbolic interpretations of their chosen golden bois's power level that outstrip those of Astartes, to banning anyone from their Facebook group who said their codex would be good instead of underpowered, to the unsubstantiated meme that Valdor could defeat primarchs one on one...
I guarantee that situation didn't go down like the poster you replied to depicted it, but that's par for the course for them.
Custodes can't be the equal of 100 Astartes in any meaningful way for the setting to make sense, or the wargame. They've been handed two meaningful defeats, first by the Sons of Horus, then by Harlequins, and of course they didn't write those down, so they probably had more than that on Old Terra.
Insectum7 wrote: Get me a quote for the 1000 Custodes kill 100,000 Orks in "moments". Like, any details on how that went down exactly?
Sure thing.
"Only the Emperor and his inner circle know their exact number. Certainly only a thousand have ever been seen together at any one time, and then only once at the famous Battle of Gyros-Thravian, fought during the Great Crusade against the ork warlord Gharkhul Blackfang and his vast greenskin horde.
The Primarchs Horus, Rogal Dorn, and Mortarion and their legions were vastly outnumbered and close to defeat when the Emperor led an attack from his golden battle barge, the Bucephalus. At the head of a thousand Custodians, the Emperor struck at the very heart of the Ork horde, confronting Gharkhul atop a towering Gargant. As the Emperor decapitated the giant, black-skinned ork, the Custodians laid waste to the Warlord’s prime warriors. It is said that within moments over a hundred thousand greenskins died, and the Waaagh! was broken. Legend has it that only three Custodians died at the battle, their names enshrined forever, engraved on the Emperors armour.” "
–The Horus Heresy: Visions of Darkness, Page 18
And no, before the bad faith arguments come, it is said the Custodians laid waste to the Warlord's prime warriors as the Emperor was killing Gharkhul so this was their feat, not the Emperor's, and given the description of them being "Prime Warriors" it was likely these were mostly Nobz or better that were slain.
You could take the cop-out "myths and legends" approach to dismissing it but that reasoning applies to every source except direct narrative ones like BL which you types get so upset about when brought up. Which is why I deliberately only brought up non-BL fluff.
Well there's a couple big asterisks there. For one, details are even framed as legend "Legend has it. . ." and "it is said that within moments. . .", so rather than a cop out, it's a mere observation.
Second, The Emperor is there. Minor detail that might have slipped one's mind I'm sure. The most powerful sorcerer that humanity has ever seen is leading the charge. Gosh I wonder what his aura abilities are? Maybe he just cast a God-Emperor-level "The Quickening" on all his warriors and let them go to town.
And as noted here and in other threads, fluff is all over the place.
This is a cop-out.
It's just a fact. There was someone last year (?) claiming that Space Marines walked at 60 miles per hour because of some passage read in a novel. Double facepalm.
Void__Dragon wrote: Yes, you can indeed find excerpts of a Custodian (albeit a crippled and weak one) getting killed by a World Eater punching through his chest. But there is definitely fluff which supports the Custodes being far superior to Astartes and bluntly there's a lot more supporting that than the alternative, and your assertion that they are barely functional as an army borders on complete fantasy. You just don't like them lol.
The measure of "far superior" is the crux of the matter. 100xSpace Marine they are clearly not. Maybe 2 or 3x, and advantages dwindle quickly once you put a Marine in comparable gear.
Cite me bringing it up in the context of the thread topic itself? I never even implied in my original post that a random TacMarine would be parrying projectile fire while fighting.
2. Space Marines may be badass, but they cannot dodge bullets or beams like f***ing Neo.
.
I could probably find you several dozen examples of them doing just that. I can think of at least one example of a human doing it (Eisenhorn).
Hate it all you want but it isn't like claims like that came out of nowhere. Lucius the Eternal in basically every book he appears in, Argel Tal in The First Heretic, the Ultramarines sergeant whose name I forgot in Know No Fear, gak really does happen all the time.
Looks pretty in context to me. Maybe you didn't intend it to be, but it sure reads that way.
And Know No Fear being one of the few BL novels I've read, I don't recal any "neo-dodging" by a UM Sergeant.
Technically accurate, but it does feature Marines processing incredible amounts of information in a nanosecond and the sergeant in particular stabbing a Word Bearer in the time span of a microsecond. Not literally dodging bullets, but moving much faster than the speed of sound.
Easy to chalk up to flavorful language. They're only Initiative 4 and have a 6" move.
As for plain ol' bullets, they move faster than the speed of sound. I don't care how good Space Marines' technology and biological modifications are... a being of flesh and blood cannot move fast enough to dodge a bullet that has already left the muzzle of the gun. A peregrine falcon dives at about 300 kph, which is less than one third of the speed of sound, and it doesn't reach that speed instantly. The kind of motion required to dodge even a single bullet would likely involve G-forces capable of destroying any carbon-based lifeform at a cellular level.
A peregrine falcon is also considerably more fragile than you are, much less a Space Marine. There are skydivers who have literally broken the sound barrier and survived unharmed. And while they did benefit from being higher in the atmosphere and experiencing less drag they also are considerably less durable and not nearly as well protected as a Marine is.
You're missing the physics of the point being made. Of course a human body and a falcon can go really fast . . . after accelerating for some time. As the saying goes, "It's not the fall that kills you it's the sudden stop at the end." The front end of the fall is no different. Accelerating from zero to over 600mph in one-tenth of a second will smash you, a falcon, and presumably a Space Marine just as well. Unless of course you want to argue that a fall at supersonic speed will leave a Space Marine unharmed upon striking the ground. I don't think you want to make that argument though.
That custodes attitude is basically what everyone else has had to deal with regarding marine fanbois for 20 years and what this thread is about.
If people can see why custodes aren't that ridiculous, then they can understand whay people don't think marines are that ridiculous either.
I mean there are fanbois and there are fanbois. I love my Marines and it's my main army, but the gak people come up with is nuts.
Do you remember one of those threads back on Warseer where people kept inflating the height of a Marine based on certain descriptions from the novels? 8 feet tall, 10 feet tall Space Marines? I'm sure people got up to 12 at some point.
Insectum7 wrote: Get me a quote for the 1000 Custodes kill 100,000 Orks in "moments". Like, any details on how that went down exactly?
Sure thing.
"Only the Emperor and his inner circle know their exact number. Certainly only a thousand have ever been seen together at any one time, and then only once at the famous Battle of Gyros-Thravian, fought during the Great Crusade against the ork warlord Gharkhul Blackfang and his vast greenskin horde.
The Primarchs Horus, Rogal Dorn, and Mortarion and their legions were vastly outnumbered and close to defeat when the Emperor led an attack from his golden battle barge, the Bucephalus. At the head of a thousand Custodians, the Emperor struck at the very heart of the Ork horde, confronting Gharkhul atop a towering Gargant. As the Emperor decapitated the giant, black-skinned ork, the Custodians laid waste to the Warlord’s prime warriors. It is said that within moments over a hundred thousand greenskins died, and the Waaagh! was broken. Legend has it that only three Custodians died at the battle, their names enshrined forever, engraved on the Emperors armour.” "
–The Horus Heresy: Visions of Darkness, Page 18
lol
So, please indulge my curiosity, when you imagined this, what were "the Primarchs Horus, Rogal Dorn, and Mortarion and their legions" doing during this attack from the golden battle barge?
Also, was the golden battle barge out of golden battle ammo? Or did the Enborer tell everyone "Bros please turn off yr guns, I need this" before he struck.
Void__Dragon wrote: Let's not pretend that 40k is at all consistent on what lasguns actually do. But yes, I would actually also prefer that they are literally lasers and as such Marines could not avoid them.
Waiiiiit, is there actually a school of thought claiming that lasguns don't fire lasers?
There are skydivers who have literally broken the sound barrier and survived unharmed.
Here I'm obviously talking about acceleration, not velocity. Did those skydivers accelerate from 0 to 1000+ kph in 0.01 seconds? I don't think so.
To create an organism that can handle the sort of G-forces we're talking about here, you'd have to build it from scratch at a cellular or even molecular level rather than modify an existing one, because the building blocks of life as we know it (carbon-based cells and so on) just aren't up to the task.
Not saying it's not another story, though bluntly most of the bullet-timing in their stories is less them dodging them like Neo (that's more Lucius' thing) and more than deflecting them with their swords.
Unless you're quadruple-wielding like General Grievous (and maybe even then), you can't deflect all projectiles from an Imperial Guard squad firing in unison, any more than you can dodge them all. They're going to come at you from more directions than you have swords.
Space Marines get killed all the time, and not just by other Space Marines. They get killed by Orks, they get killed by T'au and Eldar, they get killed by Tyranids, they get killed by plain ol' humans. The same fluff that you quote as if it were written by the God-Emperor Himself is full of Space Marines dying at the hands of a wide variety of opponents and to a broad range of weapons, just like any other soldiers. I don't know where you get this compulsion to find far-fetched reasons why nothing the Imperial Guard can throw at them will stick. You sound like a kid playing rock-paper-scissors and coming up with a fourth, secret thing that trumps rock, paper and scissors.
(probably because of Marine envy, a common ailment the fandom has)
LMFAO
"Space Marines' extra organs and hardened skin enable them to break multiple laws of physics and principles of common sense! Also they can make an entire veteran company quail in terror by their mere presence, play blindfolded chess against 20 grandmasters simultaneously and win every game, write an epic poem while hurtling down in a drop pod, and impregnate your wife just by winking at her!"
"WTF no they don't"
"Oooh, butthurt much? You must have Marine envy!"
It actually occurring regularly in the text is a far more compelling argument than your pseudo-intellectual attempts to reason away the things that have already happened numerous times in the fluff.
What if...
(hear me out)
...some of the fluff is fracking stupid, and was clearly written by people who have no idea what they're talking about?
Some lore has Lasguns with recoil, some have actual impact, knocking people back. Lasguns not being lasers seems stupid, but there is evidence for them having kinetic projectiles.
TheBestBucketHead wrote: Some lore has Lasguns with recoil, some have actual impact, knocking people back. Lasguns not being lasers seems stupid, but there is evidence for them having kinetic projectiles.
Iirc the 2nd ed Wargear book has them firing "explosive bolts of energy", like a Star Wars blaster. But then the DOW series has them firing actual laser beams.
I kinda like the idea of the capacity to do either.
Me and my friends decided on lasers for a project we're working on, but we did explore a lot of options. Out of everything 40k, Lasguns took the most work, followed by the Bolter, but the Bolter was mostly arguing over how strong it should be in comparison to real guns, how much recoil it would have, the strength required to use it, and if "Human Bolters" were lower caliber, or just smaller sized with the same rounds.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh yeah, and a big part of the issue was that, once we added power settings to the Lasgun, while weaker than the Bolter, ended up being so efficient that they might end up preferred over Bolters by even Marines, despite Bolters being able to explode a human instantly. We had to lower its Rate of Fire and lower its accuracy. Lasguns are absurd once you look into them just a bit.
But the more we fought about Bolters, the more we realized that they were kind of impotent in comparison. Gyroc rounds would cause such low recoil, combined with .75 Caliber being smaller than you'd think, other than size, Bolters should probably be usable by children. But we did decide to ignore reality, and made them powerful. The only annoying bit was someone arguing that a normal human firing a Bolter should kill them due to recoil.
But the more we fought about Bolters, the more we realized that they were kind of impotent in comparison. Gyroc rounds would cause such low recoil, combined with .75 Caliber being smaller than you'd think, other than size, Bolters should probably be usable by children. But we did decide to ignore reality, and made them powerful. The only annoying bit was someone arguing that a normal human firing a Bolter should kill them due to recoil.
The recoil is probably the most flexible aspect of Bolters, as I think there's an initial charge to kick the round out prior to the rocket taking over. All you have to do is adjust that initial explosion up or down to get your desired level of kick.
Lorewise that gives you all the room necessary for humans and Marines to wield the same weapon. You could just have it that Marines are more stable when firing it, and they could even use ammunition with a bigger initial charge for a bit of extra velocity.
. . .
As for arms ripping off, obviously humans can fire large caliber shotguns, rifles, grenade launchers etc, so that seems pretty ignorable. Might be uncomfortable though!
We made it so humans use a .70 Caliber, and Marines use a .75 Caliber, with different sized guns. I argued for them using the same size Bolters, but I was outnumbered 3 to 1. But I did manage to make it so humans can use the bigger Bolter, it's just generally going to be harder.
I love 40k, man, but sometimes the guns make me feel crazy.
To get back on topic, though, despite all the arguing and bickering about Bolters and Lasguns, we agreed that 50 Guardsmen was roughly the amount needed to kill a Marine on average.
TheBestBucketHead wrote: We made it so humans use a .70 Caliber, and Marines use a .75 Caliber, with different sized guns. I argued for them using the same size Bolters, but I was outnumbered 3 to 1. But I did manage to make it so humans can use the bigger Bolter, it's just generally going to be harder.
I love 40k, man, but sometimes the guns make me feel crazy.
To get back on topic, though, despite all the arguing and bickering about Bolters and Lasguns, we agreed that 50 Guardsmen was roughly the amount needed to kill a Marine on average.
Try the physics of a shuriken catapult for brain melting - gravitically accelerated discs (so they are fired like a star trek ship going to warp...), that weigh nothing, but hit really hard, required some crazy % Light speed accelerations and screw with the concept of short-ranged weapons. It's pretty much impossible to take the physics of the gun as described and try to make it work the way it's also described...
That custodes attitude is basically what everyone else has had to deal with regarding marine fanbois for 20 years and what this thread is about.
If people can see why custodes aren't that ridiculous, then they can understand whay people don't think marines are that ridiculous either.
I mean there are fanbois and there are fanbois. I love my Marines and it's my main army, but the gak people come up with is nuts.
Do you remember one of those threads back on Warseer where people kept inflating the height of a Marine based on certain descriptions from the novels? 8 feet tall, 10 feet tall Space Marines? I'm sure people got up to 12 at some point.
Yeah, and with the advent of Primaris there's been quite a lot of backpedaling in that area - it's ok marines are 7-7.5 foot tall because primaris are 8-8.5 feet tall...
IMO they are fine at 7 foot and primaris can be 7.5 - with a 0.5 foot variable for your bigger ones. They're not just tall, but wide, so they're like a dwarf's proportions but 7 foot tall (even at 7 foot they'd look bigger than a tall human because they'd be deeper and wider - the square cube law)... But ever since the HHCCG redesigned the primarchs to be giants and the emperor as overly blinged up and huge, the power fantasy of being a monster soldier just seems to push up everything...
TheBestBucketHead wrote: To get back on topic, though, despite all the arguing and bickering about Bolters and Lasguns, we agreed that 50 Guardsmen was roughly the amount needed to kill a Marine on average.
Sounds reasonable to me. "On average" is key, of course, as the ratio will vary wildly depending on circumstances.
Hellebore wrote: But ever since the HHCCG redesigned the primarchs to be giants and the emperor as overly blinged up and huge,
The Emperor wasn't genetically modified though, as far as I know, unless he experimented on himself with the growth hormones he would later use on Marines. Either his purported size is mainly due to his power armor, or his Warp presence distorts people's perception of him.
the power fantasy of being a monster soldier just seems to push up everything...
I think they definitely went over the top with the "bigger is better" thing. There comes a point where size becomes a hindrance. Given the way volume and weight interact, becoming too big and heavy would make them less proportionally strong, no matter how much of their weight is muscle, in the same way that ants can carry many times their own weight but humans can't. By contrast with Marines, Officio Assassinorum operatives are plenty deadly without needing to be mountains of muscle.
This could be partly chalked up to the needs and expectations of a miniature game. People wouldn't be as interested in collecting and fielding Marines if they were no bigger than your average human, T'au and Eldar infantry. An army that's marketed as some of the best individual fighters of the setting are expected to look the part.
It changes depending on the author and context.
Personally the terrifying killing machine version of marines is more appealling in the context of the setting, but it would be difficult to write a set of rules where 10,000 guard killing one marine feels like a victory!
For instance, a Raven Guard Primaris Infiltrator is a completely different threat to say, a Dark Angels Deathwing Knight, or a Blood Angel Death Company with a Jump Pack.
Raven Guard Infiltrator, with his baffled armour and genetic tendency to super sneaky stab deth is a sod for Imperial Guard. Sneak in, sabotage sabotage sabotage, maybe leave your Commander scattered around like a grisly scavenger hunt
-Guardsman- wrote: People wouldn't be as interested in collecting and fielding Marines if they were no bigger than your average human, T'au and Eldar infantry. An army that's marketed as some of the best individual fighters of the setting are expected to look the part.
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You say that, but the old school Marines sold like crazy even when they weren't much bigger than Guardsmen.
Hold on, the Emperor in all the "Remembrancer" art or however it's spelled, was clearly just about 2/3s of a Horus. Seeing as how Horus was over 10' tall in his armor, that makes the Emperor around 6', right?
Then again, as others have said, he was in his Emperor variant Terminator plate, so maybe he's actually 5+? Now we are getting dangerously close to heresy.
-Guardsman- wrote: People wouldn't be as interested in collecting and fielding Marines if they were no bigger than your average human, T'au and Eldar infantry. An army that's marketed as some of the best individual fighters of the setting are expected to look the part.
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You say that, but the old school Marines sold like crazy even when they weren't much bigger than Guardsmen.
Times change, peoples' standards go up, I bought Marines and Guardsmen back in the 00's, part of the reason I stopped buying them was the weird scaling and proportions started to bug me.
Would a chapter fortress of JUST space Marines be able to hold off an entire tendril of a hive fleet? Yes, and has at least twice. The Ultramarines, and the Blood Angels.
Could a planet of JUST imperial guard and PDF hold off a Tyranid invasion? No. Nor could they even hope to. Even if every single IG soldier was given a plasma rifle, a melta pistol, and a power fist. Entire hive worlds have fallen with far greater support than just the guard can manage. The Space Marines are the only ones who've literally beaten them back.
That is how much more a space marine is than a standard human.
Cain and company have beaten Tyranids back without Marine support, your premise is false.
Edit: For that matter, the Ultramarines had the support of their Auxiliaries, and the Death Korps of Krieg, as well. And the BA were getting their teeth kicked in until Khorne intervened.
Bobthehero wrote: Cain and company have beaten Tyranids back without Marine support, your premise is false.
Edit: For that matter, the Ultramarines had the support of their Auxiliaries, and the Death Korps of Krieg, as well. And the BA were getting their teeth kicked in until Khorne intervened.
The nids that Cain and company saw off were a splinter/remnant rather than a full strength tendril. And really, they were either against a single hiveship or delaying the nids until the main imperial forces arrives.
That said, SM chapter fortress and planet full of guardsmen/PDF are very different targets and I don't think will give a good comparison.
Maybe a different test: who would win at a limbo contest?
Would a chapter fortress of JUST space Marines be able to hold off an entire tendril of a hive fleet? Yes, and has at least twice. The Ultramarines, and the Blood Angels.
Could a planet of JUST imperial guard and PDF hold off a Tyranid invasion? No. Nor could they even hope to. Even if every single IG soldier was given a plasma rifle, a melta pistol, and a power fist. Entire hive worlds have fallen with far greater support than just the guard can manage. The Space Marines are the only ones who've literally beaten them back.
That is how much more a space marine is than a standard human.
The Defense of Baal saw not just the Blood Angels, but all of their successor Chapters (five Chapter Masters from Successor Chapters lost their lives in the defense), all defending against the Tyranids and they were going to lose. "Baal was ready to fall".
The defense of Ultramar saw the Tyranids facing several worlds worth of defense stations and Ultramar Auxilla (PDF) prior to coming to Macragge, which was also surrounded by defense stations, the local Ultramar Defense Fleet, as well as the Ultramarine fleet itself. And the UM forces were STILL losing. The deciding factor was the arrival of a third fleet, Battlefleet Tempestus of the Imperial Navy, which barely managed to turn the tide in space. If it was just the UM defending (even with their fleet) it was inevitable UM loss.
Let's say the marine can survive the 10,000 in the forest scenario. I don't think they have to kill every guardsmen, if they are taking down a squad or two a day, a platoon on a good day, how long until the guard devolve into infighting, breaking of morale, killing their own for supplies?
I really don't think it would take that long, if the marine could survive a month, and get enough done in that month to cause major morale and leadership issues within the guard, I think it wins on a technicality as the guard would consume themselves (maybe quite literally via cannibalism) unless they got resupplies, at which point it is a different argument.
Would a chapter fortress of JUST space Marines be able to hold off an entire tendril of a hive fleet? Yes, and has at least twice. The Ultramarines, and the Blood Angels.
Could a planet of JUST imperial guard and PDF hold off a Tyranid invasion? No. Nor could they even hope to. Even if every single IG soldier was given a plasma rifle, a melta pistol, and a power fist. Entire hive worlds have fallen with far greater support than just the guard can manage. The Space Marines are the only ones who've literally beaten them back.
That is how much more a space marine is than a standard human.
I disagree with your argument entirely. Not only can you not prove a negative, there's no particular reason to think that Imperial Guard equipped as superlatively as you might say would have the kind of trouble you imply.
One m'fing Marine but BEFORE having been taken as an aspirant, implanted, indoctrinated, trained, armed and armoured and not having left their hive world, planet, starfort location of origin etc.
One m'fing Marine but BEFORE having been taken as an aspirant, implanted, indoctrinated, trained, armed and armoured and not having left their hive world, planet, starfort location of origin etc.
One m'fing Marine but BEFORE having been taken as an aspirant, implanted, indoctrinated, trained, armed and armoured and not having left their hive world, planet, starfort location of origin etc.
VS
10,000 Guardsmen.
How would that argument be relevant?
I thought we mostly agreed on the answer on the first page and have been more or less exploring the question in greater depth by looking at different angles for the past 9 pages...
One m'fing Marine but BEFORE having been taken as an aspirant, implanted, indoctrinated, trained, armed and armoured and not having left their hive world, planet, starfort location of origin etc.
VS
10,000 Guardsmen.
How would that argument be relevant?
I thought we mostly agreed on the answer on the first page and have been more or less exploring the question in greater depth by looking at different angles for the past 9 pages...
Nah, people like Fezzik are still arguing the point despite it being ridiculous.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Kick it old school. 2nd Ed old school. With a Virus Grenade Wargear card.
That’s the Guard a’ deid.
It didn't have much range for infection, so unless the 10,000 are in one big cloud it kills some and then stops. Besides it's not really the Marine doing the killing, a Guardsman could get the same result by throwing a Virus Grenade, whuich just makes an argument towards "why have Marines in the first place?")
As I mentioned before: How much firepower would one Space Marine need to kill another Space marine?
20 Bolter shots? 40?
Now how much fire would 10.000 IG troopers direct at him? Including their (krak) grenades and potential special weapons.
If they can't kill a Space Marine, neither can a space marine. So then when facing Chaos Space Marines it does kind of come down to the Navy right? Since it seems Space Marines only die to orbital lance strikes and will never succumb to thousands of shots from anything lower than that.
OK, maybe a bit overdramatic, but I felt like at least mentioning it.
I'm reminded of the scene in Unforgiven, amended for topic focus:
English Bob: Well there's a dignity Astartes. A majesty that precludes the likelihood of assassination. If you were to point a las-rifle at a Space Marine your hands would shakes as though palsied.
Conscript: Oh I wouldn't point no lasrifle at nobody sir.
English Bob : Well that's a wise policy, a wise policy. But if you did. I can assure you, if you did, that the sight of Astartes would cause you to dismiss all thoughts of bloodshed and you would stand... how shall I put it? In awe. Now, a Company Commander... well I mean...
Again all comes down to specific tactics and combat proficiency.
The first place any Marine would want to strike in such a situation would be the Command Structure. Due to its rigidity, Imperial Guard aren’t exactly encouraged to fight on their own initiative for the most part.
Take out the Company Command (really not that hard if you can get close enough) and that’s a hefty blow. You then end up with relatively Junior Officers having to conference to agree ways forward, whereas before Company Command sez, everyone else duz.
The Marine would also be able to ascertain and listen in on such chatter. This would near inevitably reveal their deployment disposition.
Should a section leader etc start to show proper tactical nous? Guess who’s next up on the Hit List. That’s right. Them and anyone else showing so much as a glimmer of competence.
Rinse and repeat a few times, let alone including my previous horror show of the potential to constantly broadcast the sound of slaughter, and suddenly you’re not facing a single unified force, but dozens of smaller, increasingly disorganised forces.
Still not a “and therefore the Marine wins” situation like. But a far more achievable goal.
And remember, every Marine started off in the Scout Companies. They’re all skilled and experienced in sneaking around and disrupting enemy supply chains
Get to the ammo dump, and Booby Trap it. Even a single primed Frag or Kroak Grenade, positioned in the right place can work wonders - and you don’t even need to be nearby. Pull the pin (or whatever), wedge it in somewhere, and then scarper. Sooner or later it’s gone be disturbed, the. kaboom.
Strike and fade, rinse and repeat. Death by 10,000 cuts.
As I and others have pointed out? It’s not gonna take terribly long for such tactics to start eroding Guard morale. Massacre here, slaughter there, careful infiltration and strategic assassination there. It all adds up.
I mean…consider what a Marine can do to a human body. Snapping necks is the work of a split second. Once dead, if you’ve time? Start wrenching off limbs. Turn a killing into a butchering. Leave very visual reminders of just what it is they’re trying to kill. Break that nerve. Terrify them. Make them realise that a Demi-God, and one the evidence shows to be invulnerable is stalking them.
But it all stands on assumption that the Marine and his kit always get off undamaged and that the Guardsmen can ever see him coming
What if the helmet gets serious damage on the attempt what if he gets too close to an explosion that triggers the explosives he carries. It's always ideal scenarios that involve the Marine succeeding at their objectives with no further impediments
Then the Astartes still has superior vision, hearing, breathing, intelligence (the brain kind, not the data kind), smell, and can gain information through the consumption of brain matter.
The biggest problem is that there have been times when a Lasgun has killed an Astartes with a headshot and others where an Astartes has taken intense damage to the head and kept on killing.
Still leaves him open to headshots, and with no real ways to tap into the comms
And that's not going into him always getting away with each strikes unharmed, always perfectly able to snipe all the special/heavy weapons and a myriad of other things just magically working for the Marine, always in his favor.
Headshots that, as has been established, can either kill or have little to no effect. Just saying "But headshots" doesn't actually mean anything when the variance is so large.
As for coms, the Astartes picks up a com bead or eats brains to get information.
He has to eat the right brain, he has to have time to eat the brain, how does he process all the infromation that from over 18+ years of living? Does it takes long, is there a limit to how much can be absorbed (I expect it to be no, because the greatest flaw of the Marines as is is that they have no limitations to begin with)
There's a lot to be considered there
Comm beads dont usually pick up comms from Company pevel chatter, he would need to use a Vox Caster and tune itnto the right frequency, after the Guard realise their Vox has gone missing, they'd switch.
How many Guardsmen would it take to kill a Necron Triarch Praetorian? Would it get as many defenders as Space Marines, saying it has a good chance against thousands?
TheBestBucketHead wrote: How many Guardsmen would it take to kill a Necron Triarch Praetorian? Would it get as many defenders as Space Marines, saying it has a good chance against thousands?
A Praetorian is a millions of years old killing machine with a regenerating body, anti-grav pack, and a big stick that can melt even Necrons into puddles with a single shot. Probably a similar amount if the situation is the same as with the Astartes. Even then the limitations of a meat body are simply removed with the Praetorian. No bones to break, no blood to lose, no psychological damage to be had.
As for Bob, I'm not arguing every single small possibility in this argument. It's not fun. Enjoy your internet points.
TheBestBucketHead wrote: How many Guardsmen would it take to kill a Necron Triarch Praetorian? Would it get as many defenders as Space Marines, saying it has a good chance against thousands?
Aha!
Trick question. Even if he gets all shot to ribbons, chances of a kill are vanishingly tiny low, because the Praetorian will phase out.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bobthehero wrote: But it all stands on assumption that the Marine and his kit always get off undamaged and that the Guardsmen can ever see him coming
What if the helmet gets serious damage on the attempt what if he gets too close to an explosion that triggers the explosives he carries. It's always ideal scenarios that involve the Marine succeeding at their objectives with no further impediments
Ravenguard Infiltrator. The infiltration unit of choice
Guardsmen aren't idiots. Just because none of them have a Commissioned Rank doesn't mean that they can't figure basic stuff out. There's gonna be a few Rawnes and Corbecs in that 10,000.
