I'm trying to resolve in my head the new story of the Leagues of Votann with the old story of the Squats. For the latter, most of the story comes from White Dwarf #111 which was the closest thing to a codex the Squats ever had. Unfortunately, I don’t have the new codex in front of me so some of you might need to fill in the blanks.

They sell a t-shirt with that old "codex" on it


Anyways, here are a bunch of questions...

From memory and the teasers from warhammer-community, the Kin are cloned. Does the codex say that all Kin are clones? Or that populations might be generated via the cloneskeins and after that they might be set loose and live and reproduce biologically. Is that mentioned or alluded to at all? The website mentions that it is a First Truth that they are a cloned people. Do they die out if there are no cloning facilities available?

And I do remember there are the Necromunda Squats, so are these an example of Kin that are no longer cloned or that don't have a Votann? Is there much more story for these Necromunda guys?

Is it possible there are many more isolated or "feudal" Kin worlds that might live without cloning, Votann, or other superior technology? Could these types of worlds be the ones that White Dwarf #111 described?

If there are these kinds of worlds, what do the Kin with cloning and Votann think when they encounter them? Do they wipe them out? Integrate them?

Looking at the old lore - Is the retcon that the old stuff is all invalid, or just that no one mentioned the Votann and cloning previously? Is that old Squat stuff just a bunch of Kin that played nice with Imperium?

Something from White Dwarf 111 regarding first encounters with the Squats.. seems pretty valid still?

This is a fun one, I'd like to think this is still canon:

Does the codex say that all Kin are clones?

yes, but not in the traditional sense.

they are not carbon copies of one or a small number of "template" Kin, like the Clone Army of star wars, but something closer to "designer babies", taking elements form a bank of famous kin, and combining them to create new kin that naturally excel at a given duty (for example, a mix of g-tolerance, spatial awareness and good reflexes for a pilot). Hence, they are physically and genetically diverse, which partly explains how the admech haven't clocked onto thier heratek.

they dont explictly mention if the Squats of necromunda are clones, working under a voltann, but they do say they are effectively a isolated offshoot of the race and have been isolated form the leagues of the core for at least 10,000 years.

Is it possible there are many more isolated or "feudal" Kin worlds that might live without cloning, Votann, or other superior technology? Could these types of worlds be the ones that White Dwarf #111 described?

If there are these kinds of worlds, what do the Kin with cloning and Votann think when they encounter them? Do they wipe them out? Integrate them?

Looking at the old lore - Is the retcon that the old stuff is all invalid, or just that no one mentioned the Votann and cloning previously? Is that old Squat stuff just a bunch of Kin that played nice with Imperium?

form what i can tell, the old stuff is basically retconned. the Leagues are the squats, and old lore is, at best, the imperiums limited and flawed understanding of the race.

Something from White Dwarf 111 regarding first encounters with the Squats.. seems pretty valid still?

somewhat invalidated, as the squats are being integrated into the tail end of the heresy, and are encounted throughout imperial history (even if not always properly recognised as being the same race under different names, as they are often mistaken for a new, unkown minor xenos race as opposed to a demi-human.

Does anyone know if they reproduce naturally as well, or are they forbidden/incapable of doing so?

 Hellebore wrote:
Does anyone know if they reproduce naturally as well, or are they forbidden/incapable of doing so?

It is not explicitly mentioned either way but I am going to assume that they can as it is stated in other places that the necromunda Squats are an offshoot group. Within the leagues I am going to assume that it is much like the Tau that it highly discouraged/illegal to have children outside of the approved methods.

I’d urge caution on the assumption that Necromundan Squats seemingly being able to have babies the old fashioned way, therefore so can the Votann.

Now to be fair, I’m not currently aware of anything to contradict your assumption. But, do keep in mind the Squats of Necromunda have been essentially isolated for 10,000 years.

That’s plenty enough time for the Votann to have fully embraced cloning - or even for their cloning to have gone down the SG-1 Asgardian route, where copies of copies of copies caused genetic drift which claimed their baby making abilities.

Yes I’m aware Votann aren’t straight up clones, rather being composite creations, but all made from stock DNA.

I haven't read the new Necromunda Squats lore as I don't play the game but perhaps they brought cloning tech with them? Pods to birth out squats could be transortable in a small vehicle for all we know and if it were the only way they reproduce as a race it would obviously be a top priority for them to protect and maintain over the millenia.

They do have a stronghold on Necromunda so it's entirely reasonable to think they still do cloning.
As for the regular Leagues, if your thousands of years old civilisation doesn't need to reproduce and hasn't done so since it's inception, there would be no cultural inclination to do so. They didn't advance into a cloned race, they always were so the concept of reproduction outside of the Clone Skeins is probably absent from their society.

On the other hand - why would they damage working organ that might come in handy later? They are supposed to be good engineers, what sane engineer would remove a backup system/failsafe just because it's not needed when something works normally? Such engineer would suck at their job, and isn't incompetence one of biggest crimes in Votann culture?

People here seem to confuse comfort with need - one simple reason to not do natural pregnancies is that they suck. You have a woman out of workforce for pretty much year+, which would be a big no no for society with limited numbers. That is, however, like thinking modern humans can't walk because people in USA drive everywhere. Can't and won't are two different things, and it's equally possible that when Votann need to replenish their numbers quickly, say after lost battle, or after colony expansion, natural breeding provides extra emergency capacity to existing infrastructure, even though 'natural' would still mean carefully screened and edited for them.

xerxeskingofking wrote:
old lore is, at best, the imperiums limited and flawed understanding of the race.

I kinda like this idea. Since GW used the old lore to inspire the new Leagues, there are of course similarities. Any retcons or discrepancies could be chalked up to the Imperium not getting the details correct and the Squats not revealing everything. The Imperium finds these abhumans... the abhumans have technology and want to trade and fight common enemies etc. The new codex has that one picture of a Kin in old school Squat garb... who knows, maybe GW will elaborate more in the future? Might be a good story where different Imperial factions argue if the Kin are xenos or abhumans, betray trust, invoke grudges, etc.

 Gert wrote:
if your thousands of years old civilisation doesn't need to reproduce and hasn't done so since it's inception, there would be no cultural inclination to do so.

Does the codex say if the Kin come out of cloning as adults? Do the Kin raise children? Do they value rearing young and family?

It could be that as a consequence of genetic manipulation or cloning that there is no biological desire to make babies, or that pregnancy is rare. I could see that they could revere pregnancy and natural birth as something rare and magical... but in a grimdark universe I could also see the possibility that they revile it too.

 Irbis wrote:
On the other hand - why would they damage working organ that might come in handy later? They are supposed to be good engineers, what sane engineer would remove a backup system/failsafe just because it's not needed when something works normally? Such engineer would suck at their job, and isn't incompetence one of biggest crimes in Votann culture?

People here seem to confuse comfort with need - one simple reason to not do natural pregnancies is that they suck. You have a woman out of workforce for pretty much year+, which would be a big no no for society with limited numbers. That is, however, like thinking modern humans can't walk because people in USA drive everywhere. Can't and won't are two different things, and it's equally possible that when Votann need to replenish their numbers quickly, say after lost battle, or after colony expansion, natural breeding provides extra emergency capacity to existing infrastructure, even though 'natural' would still mean carefully screened and edited for them.

Yeah, I can see this for sure. I forget if it was a somewhere I read or a podcast that said the Kin were like an ancient machine or process for resource collection that have lost their origins and purpose. So with that, they're still run by an AI system that with machine-like logic would want to have backups and failsafes, like you described. Isolated groups of Kin could operate and reproduce far from cloning facilities or the Votann in a self sufficient manner. Their built-in innate stoicism and greed driving them towards protecting their own and gathering resources. (This is the logic make me I think there could be "feudal" Kin worlds)

The old lore was that male Squats could be long lived. They could have several children before joining the military brotherhoods and fulfilling obligations to serve. From the old White Dwarf:

Each Squat has an obligation of military service to his stronghold, and can be called to serve for a period of 30-70 years in the Brotherhood. However, because Squats live long and breed slowly, a tradition requires that a Squat may not be called to the Brotherhood until he has sired and raised two sons to maturity, which in Squat terms is the age of 70 Terran Standard years. Thus, the continuity of the race is not threatened by its military activities.

If the Kin can birth and raise children, maybe their possible long lives help them balance that with other obligations?

I'm fairly sure one of the Loremaster videos (or somewhere) mentioned there are cloning guilds, so it doesn't sound like the cloning thing is entirely dependent on the Votann doing it. The Necromunda Squats could have taken the cloning tech with them, but then again I think the codex mentioned some Squats/Kin settle other worlds and even on Imperial planets sometimes, and presumably they wouldn't be taking the tech with them all the time.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’d urge caution on the assumption that Necromundan Squats seemingly being able to have babies the old fashioned way, therefore so can the Votann.

Now to be fair, I’m not currently aware of anything to contradict your assumption. But, do keep in mind the Squats of Necromunda have been essentially isolated for 10,000 years.

That’s plenty enough time for the Votann to have fully embraced cloning - or even for their cloning to have gone down the SG-1 Asgardian route, where copies of copies of copies caused genetic drift which claimed their baby making abilities.

Yes I’m aware Votann aren’t straight up clones, rather being composite creations, but all made from stock DNA.

The Leagues have been a clone race from the start, though - at least since they arrived in the galactic core - it's not something that happened after the Necromunda Squats settled.

Why would a clone race even have genitals. They have a single hole for waste removal that's it. Think chickens without the eggs.

Boosykes wrote:
Why would a clone race even have genitals. They have a single hole for waste removal that's it. Think chickens without the eggs.

Yes but then you're getting into the sticky questions around gender presentation and secondary sexual characteristics.

There are feminine and masculine heads on the sprues, but if they're all sexless clones, there would be no reason to have any physical variety. From a practical perspective they'd all look somewhat androgenous as sexless clones.

But we still get what appear to be feminine heads and the berserk bodies they've been put on have breastplates while the masculine heads are bare-chested.

Boosykes wrote:
Why would a clone race even have genitals. They have a single hole for waste removal that's it. Think chickens without the eggs.

Because the bits and bobs are useful for hormonal balance. Ask any pre-menopausal woman that’s had a hysterectomy, or a bloke who’s lost his goolies.

Not needing them for reproduction doesn’t equate to not needing them. Plus, it’s a genetic engineering job that’s….largely pointless. You gain nothing by removing them, so why bother?

I guess on that thought, why even have male/female Kin? Starting to be a bit like the question about why are there no female space marines. In this case, the presence of male/female might be an artifact and/or point to biological reproduction being a backup. Ex - A crashed Kin ship could establish a colony if no cloning facilities were available. Goes back to my thought that maybe there are feudal or less developed Kin and that might kinda explain the old Squats.

Even for relationships, I just wonder how they would be tight knit and familial without brothers/sisters/mothers/fathers. It doesnt seem very dwarf like to not have family ties like that. I guess we wont know more until more is published, either some fiction or another codex.

Anyways, moving back to differences and retcons... from White Dwarf 111:

In the Age of Rediscovery, the Squat Home Worlds have undertaken to provide the Imperium with a tithe, which takes the form of Brotherhoods being sent to serve with the Imperial Guard, or indeed as complete Squat forces under the Imperial banner. Space Marines are noted for their intolerance to Abhuman races, whom they see as tainted and genetically impure, and the Administratum will not generally post Squat troops to areas where they will be in close contact with Marines.

It seems that the old Squats were very much just an abhuman faction of the Imperium, whereas I just cant see the new Kin doing things like paying tithes or serving under the Imperial banner... unless there is some sort of trade, mercenary, or life oath/allegiance situation going on.

Does the codex go into much about the relationship with Imperials or Marines? Any stories about Marines that might tolerate or not tolerate abhumans/xenos?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
For the Necromunda Squats, there is a blurb on the Warhammer 40K lexicanum:

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ironhead_Squat_Prospector

Reading that and another thread on Reddit it sounds like they have tech similar to the Imperium and do have a Votann, though no confirmation about cloning. Not sure if the actual book 'Necromunda: Book of the Outlands' might elaborate.

gravitywell wrote:
I Goes back to my thought that maybe there are feudal or less developed Kin and that might kinda explain the old Squats.

Anyways, moving back to differences and retcons... from White Dwarf 111:

In the Age of Rediscovery, the Squat Home Worlds have undertaken to provide the Imperium with a tithe, which takes the form of Brotherhoods being sent to serve with the Imperial Guard, or indeed as complete Squat forces under the Imperial banner. Space Marines are noted for their intolerance to Abhuman races, whom they see as tainted and genetically impure, and the Administratum will not generally post Squat troops to areas where they will be in close contact with Marines.

It seems that the old Squats were very much just an abhuman faction of the Imperium, whereas I just cant see the new Kin doing things like paying tithes or serving under the Imperial banner... unless there is some sort of trade, mercenary, or life oath/allegiance situation going on.

Does the codex go into much about the relationship with Imperials or Marines? Any stories about Marines that might tolerate or not tolerate abhumans/xenos?

The old depicition of the squats don't exist anymore and never did as they were before, the Leagues as they are now ARE the old Squats. They've been replaced.

The Leagues frequently trade and operate as mercenaries, including with the Imperium.

gravitywell wrote:
I guess on that thought, why even have male/female Kin? Starting to be a bit like the question about why are there no female space marines. In this case, the presence of male/female might be an artifact and/or point to biological reproduction being a backup. Ex - A crashed Kin ship could establish a colony if no cloning facilities were available. Goes back to my thought that maybe there are feudal or less developed Kin and that might kinda explain the old Squats.

Even for relationships, I just wonder how they would be tight knit and familial without brothers/sisters/mothers/fathers. It doesnt seem very dwarf like to not have family ties like that. I guess we wont know more until more is published, either some fiction or another codex.

Anyways, moving back to differences and retcons... from White Dwarf 111:

In the Age of Rediscovery, the Squat Home Worlds have undertaken to provide the Imperium with a tithe, which takes the form of Brotherhoods being sent to serve with the Imperial Guard, or indeed as complete Squat forces under the Imperial banner. Space Marines are noted for their intolerance to Abhuman races, whom they see as tainted and genetically impure, and the Administratum will not generally post Squat troops to areas where they will be in close contact with Marines.

It seems that the old Squats were very much just an abhuman faction of the Imperium, whereas I just cant see the new Kin doing things like paying tithes or serving under the Imperial banner... unless there is some sort of trade, mercenary, or life oath/allegiance situation going on.

Does the codex go into much about the relationship with Imperials or Marines? Any stories about Marines that might tolerate or not tolerate abhumans/xenos?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
For the Necromunda Squats, there is a blurb on the Warhammer 40K lexicanum:

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Ironhead_Squat_Prospector

Reading that and another thread on Reddit it sounds like they have tech similar to the Imperium and do have a Votann, though no confirmation about cloning. Not sure if the actual book 'Necromunda: Book of the Outlands' might elaborate.

It was said in the codex that they view family much like the Tau do. The view their work group as their family more than anything else.

As for the differences between the old and new lore there is one small connection mentioned in the codex. There is a small part about the Emberg-Aegnir Bloc, a small league that was destroyed to the last by Hive Fleet Leviathan to protect their Votann (that is now extra insane). It is likely that this is the Squats from old that we know. The fact that they looked so different could be explained with them being a more "feral" league then the others and their small size could be used to explain why they played ball with the imperium like they did. These are just my guesses though.

Their relationship with the imperium is complicated. They know they are descendants of humanity but like to keep the imperium at arm's reach as it could give the imperium greater claim over them. It is also said that the more intolerant marines and inquisitors are quick to label them as xenos and attack. With the mechanicus they avoid when possible and destroy when they cannot.

Nah, I think you're right, I think that old stuff is all retconned. It might be possible they might try to explain old stuff or reference it... but probably not much. I think some old artwork has come up in warhammer-community articles, so there might be some effort there to say the old stuff is now part of the new. There is the artwork in the release showing old school armor (bottom left).



Maybe they'll do something like take that Leman Russ quote and spin it into a story or something like that. My theory around feral or less advanced Squats explaining the old story is a bit of stretch based on the gap of knowledge we have about Kin cloning/reproduction. We'll see what they do. White Dwarf #111 has the Squats alongside Imperial Guard who are fielding a Beastmen Assault Platoon and Human bombs.... sometimes that old stuff is just dead and gone! I do think its interesting to look at what the old Squat story was and see what is the same or what has changed.

Basically, all the instances of Squats or Stuff-That-Might-Be-Squats before the reintroduction of the Leagues have been turned into various Leagues or groups of Kin.
The idea that the entire Squat race was devoured by the Tyranids has been reworked into that Imperial-aligned League. Likewise, the Demiurg that were allied with the T'au are also another League with specific Cloneskeins that made them look more alien than their kin and as such it also allowed this group to protect the continued existence of the other Leagues by claiming to be a Xenos race.

The relationship with the Mechanicus has definitely been changed...

Even today, expeditions are mounted from the Squat Home Worlds in search of lost strongholds, and these expeditions are often accompanied by Adeptus Mechanicus personnel, eager to discover lost Squat technology.

the Adeptus Mechanicus is fascinated by the apparently natural technical expertise of the Squats and the Techpriest is present as an observer to learn more about Squat skills on behalf of the Imperium.

Individual Squat Engineers with impressive reputations may be directly recruited by the Imperium, and some have been known to reach senior positions within the Adeptus Mechanicus.

Considering that they now likely have men of stone and very likely have men of iron as part of their civilization now that is a given.

I'm not a fan of the Votaan, but I do appreciate that they went dang near all the way in making them not-Squats.

The look, fluff, etc., that GW has given us is different in so many ways, that it seems fair to keep them almost entirely separate. Humanoids that probably have a similar antecedent, but have evolved in vastly different directions with different results. There really is no need to try and work the Votaan cloning, supercomputers or other nonsense into the Squat history. Votaan is Votaan and Squats is Squats.

So don't bother trying to retcon or reconcile them. Far easier, more coherent, and more sensible to just let them be very distant and very divergent branches of the same very-old tree.

 KingGarland wrote:
Considering that they now likely have men of stone and very likely have men of iron as part of their civilization now that is a given.

Speculation is that the Kin themselves are the Men of Stone.
An artificially created race (which the Kin are via Cloning) that was created to explore deep space (the Galactic Core and Eastern Fringe are pretty deep), were known to be great builders and were responsible for creating the Men of Iron (the Leagues build big and have A.I. constructs fully integrated into their society), and they had a natural resistance to the Warp (the Cloneskeins of the Votann barely register in the Warp and the species has no real Psykers as even psychic Cloneskeins barely reach even the lower power levels of other races).

I mean they have done a reasonable job of reconciling the previous iterations and the newer lore in the Votann codex. The Leagues are fairly disparate and some are on good terms with the Imperium and some aren't. But basically, that was a small portion of the Leagues and not the whole which we see in more detail now. The old Squats haven't been replaced they were just a smaller part of an unseen larger whole. The point of them being "Leagues of Votann" is that some are quite different. It's up to you when modelling your army how much you want to convert them to suit that.

The trouble with picking bits up online and from Lexicanum is that they are either repetitions of the same few pieces or taken out of context.

The main "retcons" are down to how the current 40k lore stands.

The relationship with the Mechanicus has definitely been changed...

Since you bring this up, surely this is fairly straightforward. The Adeptus Mechanicus is now a playable faction, which it wasn't for a long time. You need to create conflict between the two because it is a tabletop wargame. Same as with the Imperium.

On the reproduction side of things I'd agree with the idea that they can reproduce naturally. Clone tech might be the most efficient way but leaving it as the only way they can reproduce would leave them very dependent on access to be specific tech. Having the redundancy of reproductive organs as back would be prudent design, which is evident elsewhere with their shielded souls etc.

I think the lore is great - it connects with the older lore and leaves plenty of room for your own interpretation. They seem to have quite varied cultures within and across the leagues.
Hopefully they will add more lore through narrative campaign books and BL novels soon.

Their souls aren't shielded though, they just don't have "normal" ones. They're naturally weaker, likely as a result of them being artifical lifeforms (Artificial in the sense that they are made via technology and not through natural reproductive means).

gravitywell wrote:
Nah, I think you're right, I think that old stuff is all retconned. It might be possible they might try to explain old stuff or reference it... but probably not much. I think some old artwork has come up in warhammer-community articles, so there might be some effort there to say the old stuff is now part of the new. There is the artwork in the release showing old school armor (bottom left).

That artwork of an older-stype Squat/Kin i'd presume is their mercenary gear, based on Grendl Grenlsen and the old Squats box being called "Space Dwarf Mercenaries".

 Gert wrote:
Basically, all the instances of Squats or Stuff-That-Might-Be-Squats before the reintroduction of the Leagues have been turned into various Leagues or groups of Kin.
The idea that the entire Squat race was devoured by the Tyranids has been reworked into that Imperial-aligned League. Likewise, the Demiurg that were allied with the T'au are also another League with specific Cloneskeins that made them look more alien than their kin and as such it also allowed this group to protect the continued existence of the other Leagues by claiming to be a Xenos race.

Maybe I've just missed something as I've not got the codex myself, but those don't sound quite right from what I've seen? Tthe Emberg-Aegnir Bloc that got wiped out by the Tyranids wasn't what the "The Tyranids Ate the Squats" became, instead that was changed into the Leagues overall having so much trouble with the Tyranids that a rumour started spreading about them all being wiped out, which the Imperium obviously didn't verify before accepting it as fact. I've not read anything say the Demiurg situation was caused by a specific cloneskein either, and the Seran-Tok Mercantile Leagues has interacted to the Tau often but I don't think it was just that particular league that became known as the Demiurg. It's just one of the many names they've used.

 Olthannon wrote:
The Adeptus Mechanicus is now a playable faction, which it wasn't for a long time. You need to create conflict between the two because it is a tabletop wargame. Same as with the Imperium.

I never thought of that. Cant have them seem like besties if they’re going to be fielding armies against each other.

Somewhat related on Squats/Mechanicus... I don't have the book "Realms of Chaos: The Lost and the Damned" from 1988, but the wh40k lexicanum has:

Chaos Squats often serve as the armorers and artificers of Chaos armies, using their technical abilities to construct Daemon Engines. It is thought that Chaos Squats are responsible for the maintenance of Chaos Titans as well.

https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Chaos_Squat

It's interesting how much they had worked out since that book was published a year before White Dwarf #111. I think that's gotta be retconned with the story of the Mechanicus being better fleshed out.

Anyways, there is the precedent for chaos squats, but with the kin it feels like a blank slate now.

 Gert wrote:
Their souls aren't shielded though, they just don't have "normal" ones. They're naturally weaker, likely as a result of them being artifical lifeforms (Artificial in the sense that they are made via technology and not through natural reproductive means).

Is that described any more? It seems like it would be a plus with regards to chaos, but there has got to be a downside as well. This seems like something that will get developed more.

 silverstu wrote:

Hopefully they will add more lore through narrative campaign books and BL novels soon.

I've read some people online saying the new Kin are not very grimdark for the 40k universe... but this seems like just a starting point with lots of great directions they could go. I think we'll get a lot more interesting stuff. Honestly the old Squat lore, other than chaos corruption, was pretty clean.

gravitywell wrote:

I've read some people online saying the new Kin are not very grimdark for the 40k universe... but this seems like just a starting point with lots of great directions they could go. I think we'll get a lot more interesting stuff. Honestly the old Squat lore, other than chaos corruption, was pretty clean.

There's a case that could be made that Squats were the real good-guys of Rogue Trader. Things were simpler, so there wasn't as much to compare too, but they were the cleanest of the factions at the time. Even among the other good-ish guys, they didn't have the fall of the eldar, or the iron fist of the imperium, etc... The worst that could be said about them was that they would hold a grudge forever.

I'm not a fan of Votann, but there's nothing wrong with having a faction that is a bit of a foil to the rest of the factions' grimdark-ness. IIRC, Tau was that at first before they grimed them up a bit.

Nah the Leagues are materialistic to the extreme and if a planet has something they want they'll get it any way they can.
Trade agreements are preferred to war but if they do get to mining they will literally mine the planet to death without a care for who lives there.
"Oh your planet's mantel is unstable and every continent keeps having massive earthquakes that cause huge sinkholes? Damn shame. Hey, you wanna see my cool rock?"

 Gert wrote:
Their souls aren't shielded though, they just don't have "normal" ones. They're naturally weaker, likely as a result of them being artifical lifeforms (Artificial in the sense that they are made via technology and not through natural reproductive means).

In the codex they are described as having souls that are engineered to be dimmer, "hardened souls" and as having "hardened spirits" in the origins and adaptations section- p12 and 13. This gives them protection against being corrupted by Chaos, it's speculated that this was done on purpose to protect them from some threat.

But you are right that they don't shine as brightly as human souls for example. Definitely sound like Men of Stone.

So did they get eaten by the tyrranids or not?

 Dekskull wrote:
So did they get eaten by the tyrranids or not?

They didn't. The Leagues had a lot of trouble with Tyranids, to the point "Tyranids ate them" was a rumour that got spread which the Imperium decided was fact despite not actually knowing that was the case. Even the Tau were convinced that the Demiurg ships they'd encountered were the last of their species.

 Dekskull wrote:
So did they get eaten by the tyrranids or not?

They seem to have a healthy respect for them and refer to them as “the Bane”. I also really like that some leagues actively follow splinter fleets to harvest their resources!

gravitywell wrote:

I've read some people online saying the new Kin are not very grimdark for the 40k universe... but this seems like just a starting point with lots of great directions they could go. I think we'll get a lot more interesting stuff. Honestly the old Squat lore, other than chaos corruption, was pretty clean.

That is kind of what the Guilds are for. The mentioning of the uncaring exploitation of celestial objects, with Guilds sometimes starting wars and commiting atrocities close to genocide in order to gather resources, is Grimdark enough in my book.

It even harkens back to becoming satirical again, with the guilds most definitely being an allegory to real life oil-, Logging-, and Mining Corporations. I even spot hints at Guilds "meddling" with the Votannic Council and Hearthspakes, in a similar way that modern governments have with lobbyists.

Another slightly greyer look at the Leagues' Philosophy; Kin is Kin, but not everyone is Kin, and the Leagues seemingly don't care about non-Kin unless they have something they want.

Squats being eaten by Tyranids was never quite official... too my knowledge nothing was published, but Jervis Johnson mused about it online:

In the end (and it took years to really get to the roots of the problem) this led to a realisation that we were going to have to drop the Squats in their 'Squat' form from the 40K background. There was little point having a major race that we weren't willing to make an army book for, and their inclusion in the background meant that people kept asking us when we'd do a Squat Codex. Instead we decided that we'd write the Squats out of the background by saying that their Homworlds had been devoured by a Tyranid Hivefleet. This would give us the option in the future to return to making a race based ont he Squat archetype for 40K. This race was given the name of Demiurg, and a certain amount of preliminary work was done to get a 'feel' for what the race would be like. At present the only hint of the Demiurg in 40K is the Demiurg spaceship for BFG. However, we do have this race 'in our back pocket' as a possible new race for 40K, or an interesting character model in Inquisitor, or whatever. So far the Demiurg have lost out to other projects, and it may be that their time never actually comes, as they will have to win through on their merits, not simply because we once made some Squat models in the past. At present, I have to say that it is more lilely that they *don't* make the cut than do, as there is a certain predudice these days to simply taking races from Warhammer and cross them over to 40K like we did in the early days, so it may be that the Squats/Demiurg end up remaining a footnote in the history of the 40K galaxy. Only time will tell...

I think when they wrote up Leagues of Votann lore they wanted to make sure they made clear the relationship with the Tyranids, since so many people thought it was official that the squats got eaten. The new lore looks interesting - that note about harvesting the tail end of a hive fleet is pretty cool and fits with portraying the Kin as resource focused or opportunists.

Yes it was published. It was in the new added foreword of the old Ian Watson Inquisitor novel.

Is it not implied the Homeworlds that got scoffed off Tyranids were simply worlds the Imperium knew about? As in those who actively and regularly traded. The Imperial assumption being That’s All The Squats That Ever Were?

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Dekskull wrote:
So did they get eaten by the tyrranids or not?

They didn't. The Leagues had a lot of trouble with Tyranids, to the point "Tyranids ate them" was a rumour that got spread which the Imperium decided was fact despite not actually knowing that was the case. Even the Tau were convinced that the Demiurg ships they'd encountered were the last of their species.

That's awesome that they incorporated that into the new lore! Respect for the Nids!

They are showing how in-universe characters have limited information. The galaxy is a vast place and players have a privileged out of universe perspective on things. The Imperium is also shaped by its bigotry and ignorance, so knowledge is looked upon with suspicion particularly knowledge about xenos (or those that could pass for xenos like the Kin). Even differences that seem blatantly obvious to us, like that between Craftworlders and Cormorrites, are routinely missed by Imperials since the vast majority have never been inclined to inquire and learn more beyond "kill the xenos".

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Is it not implied the Homeworlds that got scoffed off Tyranids were simply worlds the Imperium knew about? As in those who actively and regularly traded. The Imperial assumption being That’s All The Squats That Ever Were?

More or less, with the Necromunda Squats and one of the other worlds being seen as exceptions that were the last few holds. The galactic core is difficult to traverse and the Imperium has "a bit too much on" to be keeping track of every xenos race mucking about. GW are using the rift to say well now the Leagues are out and about due to all the business. Like I said, they've done a solid job of combining everything of the past lore and into the new stuff. There's no massive "retcons" or whatever, beyond the fact they aren't dead after all of course.

 Segersgia wrote:

gravitywell wrote:

I've read some people online saying the new Kin are not very grimdark for the 40k universe... but this seems like just a starting point with lots of great directions they could go. I think we'll get a lot more interesting stuff. Honestly the old Squat lore, other than chaos corruption, was pretty clean.

That is kind of what the Guilds are for. The mentioning of the uncaring exploitation of celestial objects, with Guilds sometimes starting wars and commiting atrocities close to genocide in order to gather resources, is Grimdark enough in my book.

It even harkens back to becoming satirical again, with the guilds most definitely being an allegory to real life oil-, Logging-, and Mining Corporations. I even spot hints at Guilds "meddling" with the Votannic Council and Hearthspakes, in a similar way that modern governments have with lobbyists.

Another slightly greyer look at the Leagues' Philosophy; Kin is Kin, but not everyone is Kin, and the Leagues seemingly don't care about non-Kin unless they have something they want.

Pretty much yep, they will happily crush anyone in the way if it means they get resources, even former allies.

I have to say, I despair at this "grimdark" bollocks, as if that is all 40k has to offer. This kept being thrown at the Leagues as if it is somehow a bad thing and it isn't even true. It's such a naive understanding of the background and the predominant theme of 40k. It's no wonder you see it constantly talked about on reddit.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Is it not implied the Homeworlds that got scoffed off Tyranids were simply worlds the Imperium knew about? As in those who actively and regularly traded. The Imperial assumption being That’s All The Squats That Ever Were?

The loremaster video didn't say it was a particular event / certain holds being wiped out that made the Imperium being distinct, and i've not seen that actually mentioned in any of the things i've read posted about the Leagues. It seems to just be a vague "They had trouble with Tyranids" rather than "These specific Leagues got wiped out" as being the cause.

 Gert wrote:
Their souls aren't shielded though, they just don't have "normal" ones. They're naturally weaker, likely as a result of them being artifical lifeforms (Artificial in the sense that they are made via technology and not through natural reproductive means).

Sounds like some Primarch I know.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Boosykes wrote:
Why would a clone race even have genitals. They have a single hole for waste removal that's it. Think chickens without the eggs.

Because the bits and bobs are useful for hormonal balance. Ask any pre-menopausal woman that’s had a hysterectomy, or a bloke who’s lost his goolies.

Not needing them for reproduction doesn’t equate to not needing them. Plus, it’s a genetic engineering job that’s….largely pointless. You gain nothing by removing them, so why bother?

And also sex is fun? And partner bonding through sex is mentally stimulating and leads to all kinds of emotional and resource support?

And also, what else are they going to get up to while their ships and mining vehicles are randomly wandering around looking for the next big score?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and when the poor Votann is alone and down and sees no way out, lies naked in their sleep pod about to end it all, and then thinks "well, just once more for old time' sake", and after a short time feels much better about their situation

Iracundus wrote:
Yes it was published. It was in the new added foreword of the old Ian Watson Inquisitor novel.

Oh cool, I had read they completely removed the Squat character and re-wrote him as a Techpriest, but I didn't know the forword had something about it as well. I guess they've retconned that retcon.

 Flinty wrote:
and when the poor Votann is alone and down and sees no way out, lies naked in their sleep pod about to end it all, and then thinks "well, just once more for old time' sake", and after a short time feels much better about their situation

Hey man, I brought this up for discussion about the old Squats, new LoV, lore etc... not fuel for internet fan-fics! Ah well, I suppose it's the internet and would have happened anyway...

gravitywell wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
Yes it was published. It was in the new added foreword of the old Ian Watson Inquisitor novel.

Oh cool, I had read they completely removed the Squat character and re-wrote him as a Techpriest, but I didn't know the forword had something about it as well. I guess they've retconned that retcon.

What you are referring to was the rewriting they did for the short story in the Deathwing anthology where Grimm the Squat originally first appeared. That was possible to do since he was a minor character whose background was insignificant to the dialogue and plot of that short story. However that was not possible to do for the novel Inquisitor as Grimm plays a far more significant role and his background as a Squat is effectively an integral part of the plot that is not possible to so easily rewrite. So they added the foreword.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBDs8EvUBFo&list=RDCMUCDCx2SP6thl7r42CkTdblLA&index=1

I know new chaos squats are “rare indeed” but the could look awesome.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Is it not implied the Homeworlds that got scoffed off Tyranids were simply worlds the Imperium knew about? As in those who actively and regularly traded. The Imperial assumption being That’s All The Squats That Ever Were?

The loremaster video didn't say it was a particular event / certain holds being wiped out that made the Imperium being distinct, and i've not seen that actually mentioned in any of the things i've read posted about the Leagues. It seems to just be a vague "They had trouble with Tyranids" rather than "These specific Leagues got wiped out" as being the cause.

So, going through the codex and old Squat lore earlier today.

The original Squat Leagues were the League of Thor, League of Kapellar, League of Norgyr and the League of Emberg.

We can assume that the League of Thor has become the Greater Thurian League, who are Team Teal. The Kapellan League is briefly mentioned in that their Votann slowly degenerated until it seems to have died. Interestingly, they were once the most sizeable League, so they clearly suffered badly. In the old lore the Norgyr were meant to be those closest to Terra, but there's not much mention of that now.

As Mentlegen points out, The League of Emberg are called the Emberg-Aegnir Bloc and it was these that were eradicated by Leviathan. The old Squat lore said that had only 4 strongholds and that is matched by the codex saying they had a few kindred. Presumably they expanded a bit in the interim. They were all killed trying to defend their Votann. The Squats go through a ritual process known as returning to the Ancestors. In this case it was paramount to stop the swarm devouring them. The idea is that the dead are offered up to be recycled and to enrich the Votann with their data. In this case, the pain and death drove the Votann insane. The codex says that all know to leave the beacon alone as it projects its tortured mind. Quite an interesting ironic story in with parallels between the Squat computers and the Hive Mind. It would make a great book if GW ever decided to get someone to write it.

And this Returning to the Ancestors is also the reason behind the Votann failing. There being so much data added to the computers that they are becoming a bit odd.

Given that the Kapellan League disintegrated and the Emberg were monched, that basically explains the reason behind the Squat "disappearance". Given that the Imperium on the whole can't find it's arse with a map, losing some Squats isn't a difficult thing to explain.

Like I say, they did a good job of tying up the various loose ends and the new background.

What is now the Greater Thurian League was always considered the most powerful, with numerous kinbands. But it is only recently that they have expanded out of the core.

However, they also make mention that many kindreds and minor Leagues have left to delve into Far Space and they are known as Prospects. Given that these are more expeditionary, it's a fairly simple way of explaining their different gear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Flinty wrote:


And also sex is fun? And partner bonding through sex is mentally stimulating and leads to all kinds of emotional and resource support?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Also I'm glad you said this Flinty, I was going to reply about this earlier. I was going to write something similar but I couldn't do it in a way that wasn't deeply sarcastic

I wouldn't be shocked if at some point we were to get a second wave of LoV models that included a more lightly armoured mercenaries unit that were a bit more of that traditional look as a unit.

 The Phazer wrote:
I wouldn't be shocked if at some point we were to get a second wave of LoV models that included a more lightly armoured mercenaries unit that were a bit more of that traditional look as a unit.

This!

Though another idea that I would also love is to take the design approach of the Horus Heresy; the Old Design of the Squats is how they looked during the Horus Heresy and the new Design is their 40k counterpart. I remember Forge World approaching their design philosophy by saying that they basically update Rogue Trader/ 2nd Edition kits.

Smaller side note - this is my headcanon for updated models. The Old Designs were canon, but current designs are their new gear. It explains the redesigns of the newer Guard kits to me.

 The Phazer wrote:
I wouldn't be shocked if at some point we were to get a second wave of LoV models that included a more lightly armoured mercenaries unit that were a bit more of that traditional look as a unit.

Hopefully that's why there's art of them in the codex.

The Leagues are lacking much in the way of dedicated military units at the moment, outside of the Kahl and Einhyr.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 The Phazer wrote:
I wouldn't be shocked if at some point we were to get a second wave of LoV models that included a more lightly armoured mercenaries unit that were a bit more of that traditional look as a unit.

Hopefully that's why there's art of them in the codex.

The Leagues are lacking much in the way of dedicated military units at the moment, outside of the Kahl and Einhyr.

Yeah, I've read a few places people wondering why most units seem like repurposed miners or explorers... where is the LoV military? When you think of WH40K artwork showing the glorious clash of amassed forces, you don't necessarily think of miners that hastily grabbed some gear to join the fight.

Some more units... big tanks, flyer, huge ironkyn might work. I think an old school mercenary/conscript squad would definitely fit... it could sell just for the nostalgia. Here is an image from WD111 showing the old combat squad (looks like they are taking a selfie, lol). The blurb of text is interesting since a unit that could take little or lots of heavier weapons might feel unique and fit thematically.

Personaly I see all this Chaos is a result of the several battels of Galgotha.

Galgotha Was a Kin/Squat homeworld thats strenght was all the verius leages working together with the planet a a mass factory and traiding hub.

of coarse the planets stenght was alos its downfall. infighting between fractions on planet and then betrayal by trusted alieis affectivly finishing the place off.

I think the serviving would have taken a very harsh lession from Galgotha

"you cant reily on otheres, even other Humans. so its every leage stands allown. yes we help each other cus we are all 'Kin' but home 1st"

Another thing to consider is that mabie not all leages have acess to all the known stable mutations.
also The Squats are said in there back ground to have traided for centuies with other alein races traiding magor tec back and forth.

Also whille

Demiurg - Tua
Heliosi Ancients, - Eldar
Gnostari
Grome
Kerg - Solar Master Macarius bombed these peps to hell.

are a few name the put in the book thate a a couple more that should be there to. These are the names of other 'abb-hummans'
Squat
Ogrin
Ratling

and these are also related to the Votann

also that last one the Kerg.... they are the fore father's of another couple of races in lore... Namly the Jericco (space monkeys) and the the exsporitor navigator (unkown Aqatic. Space dolphins?)

Will be intresting seeing what retcons they feal they need to do to the Ancients, as they are discribed as Men of Iron ranging in size of that of a child to that of a scout titan.

gravitywell wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 The Phazer wrote:
I wouldn't be shocked if at some point we were to get a second wave of LoV models that included a more lightly armoured mercenaries unit that were a bit more of that traditional look as a unit.

Hopefully that's why there's art of them in the codex.

The Leagues are lacking much in the way of dedicated military units at the moment, outside of the Kahl and Einhyr.

Yeah, I've read a few places people wondering why most units seem like repurposed miners or explorers... where is the LoV military? When you think of WH40K artwork showing the glorious clash of amassed forces, you don't necessarily think of miners that hastily grabbed some gear to join the fight.

Some more units... big tanks, flyer, huge ironkyn might work. I think an old school mercenary/conscript squad would definitely fit... it could sell just for the nostalgia. Here is an image from WD111 showing the old combat squad (looks like they are taking a selfie, lol). The blurb of text is interesting since a unit that could take little or lots of heavier weapons might feel unique and fit thematically.

Here is there unit entry in the army list. Only weapon they could “all” have is a heavy bolter, but in 1st edition that was pretty potent. 1 other could have another heavy weapon.

Morty_Jhones wrote:
Personaly I see all this Chaos is a result of the several battels of Galgotha.

Galgotha Was a Kin/Squat homeworld thats strenght was all the verius leages working together with the planet a a mass factory and traiding hub.

of coarse the planets stenght was alos its downfall. infighting between fractions on planet and then betrayal by trusted alieis affectivly finishing the place off.

I think the serviving would have taken a very harsh lession from Galgotha

"you cant reily on otheres, even other Humans. so its every leage stands allown. yes we help each other cus we are all 'Kin' but home 1st"

Another thing to consider is that mabie not all leages have acess to all the known stable mutations.
also The Squats are said in there back ground to have traided for centuies with other alein races traiding magor tec back and forth.

Also whille

Demiurg - Tua
Heliosi Ancients, - Eldar
Gnostari
Grome
Kerg - Solar Master Macarius bombed these peps to hell.

are a few name the put in the book thate a a couple more that should be there to. These are the names of other 'abb-hummans'
Squat
Ogrin
Ratling

and these are also related to the Votann

also that last one the Kerg.... they are the fore father's of another couple of races in lore... Namly the Jericco (space monkeys) and the the exsporitor navigator (unkown Aqatic. Space dolphins?)

Will be intresting seeing what retcons they feal they need to do to the Ancients, as they are discribed as Men of Iron ranging in size of that of a child to that of a scout titan.

What you're saying doesn't make a lot of sense and isn't supported by the lore.

The Ogryn and Ratlings have absolutely nothing to do with the Leagues. There is no reason their names should be there, they're not related to the Votann.

The Kreg aren't who created the Jokero. The Old Ones/Slaan created the Jokero and other races. The Kreg are a species that got mentioned in like a paragraph in the Eldar Codex, and it now turns out that it was just another name for the Leagues.

No idea what you mean with "The Ancients" being Men of Iron, either.

Hah. I see that poor copy control was a problem back then too. Crack grenades indeed! Unless of course they had a really special grenade type

Kyn, Ratlings, Ogryns, (some) Beastmen do have a loosely common root, all being examples of Abhuman.

However, Kyn for now remain the odd one out, as we know their Abhuman status to be by genetic design (akin to Space Marines I suppose) than random mutation.

It is possible the others were by design initially. Given the 38,000 years between now and 40K, let alone the 28,000 years between now and The Great Crusade when they were confirmed to exist is super short in terms of evolution. Of course, we’ve no real world equivalent of a species being transplanted to a planet with differing environmental conditions including gravity etc.

But saying that, there is an old story from Inferno! where a quadruped species of Abhuman feature, and whilst I’ve not read it in probably 20 years, I think they knew their history, and were indeed the result of deliberate genetic engineering to have bodies more suited to their world.

However the Votann are the only Abhuman sub-species to still be actively practice such tinkering.

Oh, and House Goliath, which straddle the line between human and Abhuman, and are absolutely, unequivocally the result of genetic tampering.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Kyn, Ratlings, Ogryns, (some) Beastmen do have a loosely common root, all being examples of Abhuman.

However, Kyn for now remain the odd one out, as we know their Abhuman status to be by genetic design (akin to Space Marines I suppose) than random mutation.

It is possible the others were by design initially. Given the 38,000 years between now and 40K, let alone the 28,000 years between now and The Great Crusade when they were confirmed to exist is super short in terms of evolution. Of course, we’ve no real world equivalent of a species being transplanted to a planet with differing environmental conditions including gravity etc.

But saying that, there is an old story from Inferno! where a quadruped species of Abhuman feature, and whilst I’ve not read it in probably 20 years, I think they knew their history, and were indeed the result of deliberate genetic engineering to have bodies more suited to their world.

However the Votann are the only Abhuman sub-species to still be actively practice such tinkering.

Oh, and House Goliath, which straddle the line between human and Abhuman, and are absolutely, unequivocally the result of genetic tampering.

I'm pretty sure the cat girls were genetically designed as well. Probably by Musk

Two quick notes on abhuman biology:

First, it has long been implied in 40k that many abhuman strains originally were the result of genetic engineering. The sudden jump in human evolution, and the man-play-god themes of the Dark Age of Technology both point to this. Especially after the DAoT, when surviving genetors were scraping together what knowledge and tech remained to better help their people survive in alien environs or against enemy tribes after the apocalypse.

Scientist remnants during the Age of Strife in particular should be read as producing a great many Frankenstein freaks, most of which were purged by the Great Crusade. The artificial origin of the unlucky Afriel strain (being a similar tale of amateurish genetor craft from the Age of Imperium) echoes this.

Second, the ongoing genetic engineering with cloneskeins among Kin should be read in the context of slow Dwarven procreation in fiction since Tolkien: Thus, we have no reason to assume that Kin cannot and do not breed naturally, unless given background references to the contrary. After all, Squat survival in dire emergencies would require functional procreation, anything else would be un-Dwarven. But regardless, the vast majority are produced in cloneskeins. This is a logical, systematic and ancestor-deferential Dwarven solution to their Tolkien issues, given the science fiction tools at their disposal.

This raises the old question of whether speciation has occurred. The basic litmus test there being whether Homo Sapien Sapien (that’s us, hi!) could knock boots and produce offspring with Homo Sapien Variatus (Beastmen) Gigantus (Ogryn) etc.


Now I’m far from a biologist or anthropologist, so you’ll have to read up more for yourself (no, put the Creationist sources down. You don’t need to read that drivel. Or listen to it) as I’m not sure exactly what defines speciation. For instance, Big Cat species can interbreed (brother a Liger or Tigon, no really) but the offspring tend to be sterile, and so unable to further that line. Whether such a limitation then shows speciation has or hasn’t occurred I couldn’t say.

But for those interested in how such things can go out of control, I heartily recommend House of Chains for Necromunda. It details House Goliath and their creation. They’re…..really not that far away from Thunder Warriors in intent and process. Hard to say if they’re less sophisticated of course, but a fascinating read all the same.

 Flinty wrote:
Hah. I see that poor copy control was a problem back then too. Crack grenades indeed! Unless of course they had a really special grenade type

Early days of first edition that is what they were called. It was later on in first they went with the “krak” we know and love. In the compendium it was “crack” all the way. By the time battle manual was out, the k was in the krak!

Well corrected. I was sure the RT rule book had them with the K. My mistake.

 Flinty wrote:
Well corrected. I was sure the RT rule book had them with the K. My mistake.

I hadn’t noticed that they’d changed it to be fair, I will dig out my RT book and check, I always assumed it was just ORKS used the K. I bet those old “crack” grenades were moorish!

I checked me book earlier, and RT Definately has them listed as a crack grenades

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
This raises the old question of whether speciation has occurred.

The answer to this is a solid maybe. The reason for this is that the lore of 40k doesn't go into enough scientific detail and therefore it's a bit iffy delving into it. I'll throw a few hypotheticals but really, you can just gloss straight over because this post doesn't answer your question in any way

Lets begin with the fact that some animal species can be morphologically very similar but do not interbreed. Sometimes different bird species can interbreed based on their geographical proximity, but the same two species on a different migratory pattern might not do so.

Over the 38,000 years of human expansion in this setting, it's very likely than homo sapiens would evolve due to environmental factors. It's entirely possible that the species would diverge enough to be classified separately.

In our terms of classification, it's debatable if we would call something like Beastmen the same species. But then our own real world classifications don't deal with magic and chaotic mutation. How people 40,000 years in the future classify themselves, is clearly very different. Given that we reclassify creatures frequently based on new knowledge of them, that can also be true of 40k.

Abhumans are only really classified as such because they are useful. It wouldn't take much for even more puritanical elements to get rid of them permanently by reclassifing them as mutants. This then changes at a whim depending on the writers of the lore. Not to mention the fact that even the more "scientific" narrative pieces are technically unreliable, because they are Imperial records. Another alien species, such as the Eldar, Tau or Necrons, might classify 40k humans in a very different way.


And indeed, even in "baseline" 40k humans, there are plenty of curveballs. For instance, there is the fact that the Emperor gene-enhanced the entire Terran population post conquest and unification in order to remove aberration after the societal collapse and all that nuclear war business. Which suggests that the current human species is no longer our own. But therein lies the rub. Homo sapiens is biologically very diverse, however, genetically any two humans are the same.

We know there's a hell of a lot of fiddling with genes in the setting, as KNC points out.

So, if the genetic mutation is very broad, then they are no longer part of the same species. Given that GW have the Squats down as xenos, clearly it's enough for them to be no longer human.

To be perfectly honest, I don't think GW has put that much thought into this over the decades. And given that a lot of biologists are starting to say that the species classification is no longer correct, like I said at the start, it's very easy to tie your arse to your ears.


So to conclude on something more definitive, I don't think Squats can interbreed with baseline humans. Clearly the cloneskeins are genetically different on a greater scale. There wouldn't be anything stopping you putting your lemony snicket in to a consenting space dwarfs quail pipe if you were so inclined, but that's about it.

GW describe the Kin as "straddling the line between adhuman and Xenos", and the Imperium has had several encounters with Leagues were the local imperial commanders did not recognise they were dealing with abhumans, and thought of the Kin as some form of Xenos....and many cases where they DID see them as abhuman. Clearly, their is a lot of diversity in the Kin, with some being much more obviously "alien" in appearance and others looking a lot closer to "traditional fantasy dwarfs".


on cross-compatability, my money would be on "not naturally, but possible with the tech in the setting".

 Olthannon wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
This raises the old question of whether speciation has occurred.

The answer to this is a solid maybe. The reason for this is that the lore of 40k doesn't go into enough scientific detail and therefore it's a bit iffy delving into it. I'll throw a few hypotheticals but really, you can just gloss straight over because this post doesn't answer your question in any way

Lets begin with the fact that some animal species can be morphologically very similar but do not interbreed. Sometimes different bird species can interbreed based on their geographical proximity, but the same two species on a different migratory pattern might not do so.

Over the 38,000 years of human expansion in this setting, it's very likely than homo sapiens would evolve due to environmental factors. It's entirely possible that the species would diverge enough to be classified separately.

In our terms of classification, it's debatable if we would call something like Beastmen the same species. But then our own real world classifications don't deal with magic and chaotic mutation. How people 40,000 years in the future classify themselves, is clearly very different. Given that we reclassify creatures frequently based on new knowledge of them, that can also be true of 40k.

Abhumans are only really classified as such because they are useful. It wouldn't take much for even more puritanical elements to get rid of them permanently by reclassifing them as mutants. This then changes at a whim depending on the writers of the lore. Not to mention the fact that even the more "scientific" narrative pieces are technically unreliable, because they are Imperial records. Another alien species, such as the Eldar, Tau or Necrons, might classify 40k humans in a very different way.


And indeed, even in "baseline" 40k humans, there are plenty of curveballs. For instance, there is the fact that the Emperor gene-enhanced the entire Terran population post conquest and unification in order to remove aberration after the societal collapse and all that nuclear war business. Which suggests that the current human species is no longer our own. But therein lies the rub. Homo sapiens is biologically very diverse, however, genetically any two humans are the same.

We know there's a hell of a lot of fiddling with genes in the setting, as KNC points out.

So, if the genetic mutation is very broad, then they are no longer part of the same species. Given that GW have the Squats down as xenos, clearly it's enough for them to be no longer human.

To be perfectly honest, I don't think GW has put that much thought into this over the decades. And given that a lot of biologists are starting to say that the species classification is no longer correct, like I said at the start, it's very easy to tie your arse to your ears.


So to conclude on something more definitive, I don't think Squats can interbreed with baseline humans. Clearly the cloneskeins are genetically different on a greater scale. There wouldn't be anything stopping you putting your lemony snicket in to a consenting space dwarfs quail pipe if you were so inclined, but that's about it.

Probably a bit OT, but where’s the Real World line terms of speciation? I ask out of ignorance rather than simply feigning it.

I mean, Darwin’s chaffinches. Isolated populations displayed different adaptations, I think we’re all familiar with that. And being isolated, they didn’t interbreed, but purely for geographical reasons. But, if they bred between those populations in captivity, and produced fertile (thanks weird men on the internet for making that word sound weird and icky when it’s really not!) offspring, then there’s no speciation.

If a Horse and Donkey love each other very much and have offspring, it is of course a Mule - but Mule’s tend to be sterile. A hybrid animal yes, but not a new species quite yet?

I guess my confusion comes from my love of lovely slobbery idiot Doggos. Not only are they lovely soft creatures, but their diverse breeds can still produce adorable mix breed Puppers, who, if our artificial selective breeding is applied, can become a stable breed in their own right in very few generations. But….Pibble, Lab, Goldie, German Idiot? They’re all still Doggos at all points. Except Chihuahuas and other “micro breeds” because they’re misclassified Rats, inserted into homes as a clear Skaven plot.

So switching back to 40K, if a Homo Sapien Sapien and a Homo Sapien Rotundus did the mattress mambo? We’d need to know if a kiddo would occur, and whether said kiddo could then, in due course, have kiddos of its own?


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But in other news, just grabbed a copy of the new Codex courtesy of Chaos Cards, my FLGS. Yet to crack the wrapping, but give me a few hours and I’ll be able to post some potentially interesting waffle.

Speciation and the definition of a species is relatively complex as like all reality, biology is a spectrum rather than a set of discrete values.

In general terms, two organisms that don't produce fertile offspring are considered separate species. Horses and donkeys .

However there are many organisms today that are classified as distinct species but will successfully hybridise with another related species if they happen to exist in the same geographic range.


Hybridisation itself can also create new species.

Horse and donkey have been genetically separate for millions of years but their biology is still similar enough to successfully produce sterile hybrids.

So a few thousand isn't necessarily going to create genetic separation.


Dog breeds like all domesticated organisms are artificially selected but have not been genetically isolated long enough to allow genetic drift to speciate them.

Just as there's only one human species, there's only one dog species.

So dictionary definition of a species for biology is a "group of living organisms consisting of similar individuals capable of exchanging genes or interbreeding". That's the basic bit right. However, there are numerous caveats to that and this was even a problem in the 19th century.

What's more is that the word "species" can just means any sort of organism. In common parlance and particularly in a lot of science fiction, species is used in a different way to the biological definition. This is because of all those aliemses.

Dogs, like humans, can be morphologically very different but they are all one species. Although dog breeds can look very different, they are still one species. However, there's certain butterflies, birds, frogs etc that are morphologically identical, but are different species. Now the reason that they are different species (biological term) in those cases is despite similarities they cannot breed together.

Now linking this back to 40k and how this all fits together. The GW terminology you're referencing suggests that Squats, Beastmen, Ogryns and that are subspecies of homo sapiens. A subspecies is used in our sense to describe animal populations that are geographically varied and tend to be morphologically different, like certain types of tigers or elephants. But! They can still breed together. But that's only because we know that is the case. Historically, they were classed as different species.

As we don't have evidence of this 40k mamboing, we can't really say either way.

So putting on the old thinking caps, we can extrapolate certain things to base our understanding on 40k lore and these questions. Ogryns and Ratlings I would say are subspecies of homo sapiens as GW describes. They are just morphologically very different because of environmental factors. It's possible you could get a half ogryn or half ratling baby, if you were a manky bugger. Certain other humans that they have made reference to in other lore would also fit this. There's some weird bug eyed humans that live on night worlds etc.

Beastmen and Squats however, much more tricksy. Given that they have both been genetically altered to a significant degree, I would say they are still of the same tribe (which is the next two up from species, after "genus". So within the tribe homini, there are humans, chimps and bonobos. Chimps are our closest living relatives.) There are also australopithecines and other extinct hominins which were a hominid species like our own from within Africa. They are linked to all our ancestral human species and one of the first to display "human" characteristics and actions. I'd reckon that Squats and Beastmen would have their own genus and probably the term sapiens to denote their intelligence. So for instance homini> Ungulatus sapiens for Beastmen. Homini> Dweorg galaxias for Squats.

**What that all means is that the Squats and Beastmen share a common ancestor and are thus linked to homo sapiens, but are genetically different and cannot interbreed. Like us and chimps. A good example of this is homo sapiens and homo neanderthalensis. Neanderthals and ourselves were of the same genus and did interbreed, but for a long time they weren't considered part of the homo genus. ** this is the TL/DR bit

Like I say, homo sapiens probably doesn't exist anymore either and that there is a different homo species now in 40k which are our Humans.

Now unfortunately, all of that makes sense despite it being bloody confusing. Which is why GW clearly went "sod that for a lark, they are all homo sapiens somethingorotherus". Because people can see the "homo sapiens" part and understand that they are all linked at a passing glance a whole lot quicker than what I've just done. Which works fine right up until these sorts of questions. Importantly though, I fully understand why they made that choice and I would 100% do the same if I was writing that up. What I've described above is technically and biologically correct, based on the hypotheticals we have outlined, but that doesn't mean it's the better option.

This is something I bring up a lot on this forum, but I feel it's important every time. Yes GW could make things more realistic and yes they could make things make logical sense. They choose not entirely for artistic reasons. Often things that are "logical", are difficult, or nonsensical or just downright boring. Despite what people might think, logic is not something to strive for. We are not logical creatures. And there is an internet megabrain idea that a superiority of logic equates to intelligence. I'd argue to the ends of time that this isn't even remotely true Common sense and logical sense are not the same. Humans 40,000 years in the future would be so unbelievably different to ourselves but it has to make sense to our current ideas. The Neolithic was 13,000 + years ago. Think how much we have changed since. Often, people believe ourselves and the Romans are very similar. But as an archaeologist, I can tell you that although we have a lot of similarities. There are a vast amount of differences. Aesthetic choices in the setting are also entirely linked to that. Warhammer is fundamentally a piece of art after all.

Sorry for that entire deluge, hopefully it all makes sense!

Also, such definitions and delineations are the purview of the Adeptus Biologis, a wing of the Adeptus Mechanicus, a bunch of calculator worshipping nutters who insist you must say Nice Things to your gun before doling out the older Ultra-V, so not exactly reliable narrators.

Which is why I feel 40K gets away with so much ropey science happily branching into pseudoscience. Because….ignorance, superstition and ritual is The Imperium.


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Oh. And thank you both for some excellent input!


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And on Neolithic stuff, a lot of folk don’t have a good handle on just how capable we were at that stage - and how long that period lasted.

Look to the like of Skara Brae, which I had the great and genuine privilege of visiting a couple of years back. It’s absolutely Neolithic, but far more advanced as such things are considered. They certainly weren’t “ooga booga Grunk’s New Club”.

I mean, it’s not as if intelligence is measured by the tools available. Yes they worked in Stone and used Antler. But what they could do with that suggested them being very familiar with the limitations of those materials and tools. If they had iron or bronze? They’d have used it. But not having shouldn’t be confused with not being able to learn those tools.

We even see the flip side of that in modern science, which as it progresses is becoming ever more specialised. Yet, for the layman, the impression and belief is that a given Scientist must therefore be an expert on all of science. We see this confusion played for profit in the conspirasphere. Let’s say, anti-evolution channels and mouthpieces. They’ll wheel out Dr Dodgy and Professor Wright-Pratt as scientists who don’t believe in evolution. Sounds impressive, right? Almost as if the science isn’t settled. Except…Dr Dodgy, whilst a genuine Doctor, holds their Doctorate in Which Rocks Taste Best When Licked, and Professor Wright-Pratt has a degree in, let’s say….Computer Science.

Both are evidentially learned men with genuine degrees, doctorates and other qualifications from genuine universities (not you, MrKent Hovind). Except….when it comes to evolution? Said qualifications are no use. It’s like expecting a Doctor of Philosophy to perform Brain Surgey, just because they have a doctorate.

Been going through my Votann Codex. I’m impressed and enjoying it.

Couple of tidbits, mostly just putting them here are placemarkers in my mind.

First? The Land Fortress has at least one mention of drawing armoured cabs behind it. This is pleasing to me. Doesn’t make it a Land Train replacement. Just an equivalent.

Second? Whilst the Votann don’t know their origins for certain, the tidbits thrown out have my mind intrigued. Nobody knows why they didn’t return to Terra (their, and I cannot stress this enough, assumed home world/point of ancestral origin) but that clearly benefitted them. And so far as they can tell, they’ve always been Cloneskeined. There’s also a belief Votann was the man that sent them on their way, and it mentions “golden beings”. Of course, Votann could’ve been a company for all we know, such is how myth works.

This has two daft theories bubbling away in my bonce.

1. It was The Emperor, again. This is of course a decent possibility. We know Emps has been around forever. And whilst he didn’t really make himself known as The Emperor until the unification wars, he has been active throughout history.

Counterpoint to this of course is Golden doesn’t mean Emperor, or even true.

2. This one is a doozy. The cloneskeins have seemingly always been machine assisted/arranged. As a race, they could be entirely artificial. They could, potentially, have been created by the Men of Iron - or alongside. Intended as a fairly autonomous slave species, engineered to be able to exploit the deep core, and return the goodies. If created alongside, this could explain why Kin and Ironkin seemingly entirely avoided Old Night - from the get go, they were brothers in chains. When one revolted, all revolted, and they’ve followed their own path ever since.

Both those theories are far from mutually exclusive, but one or both could be wrong.

Give me a chance to read the rest of the Codex, and expect a thread!

From the Codex:

...Votann itself, who is also known variously as the Primal Ancestor, the Gilded One, or the Stonemind, amongst others. In some Kin myths, Votann was not one being but many, and is sometimes depicted as a group of gleaming golden figures or a wheel of graven stone faces.

p. 12, Leagoes of Votann Codex

That to me seems to be a callback to the Men of Gold, Men of Stone, Men of Iron. Votann are the Men of Gold who created the Kin, who are the Men of Stone. Men of Iron are the Ironkin and others like them.

Whereas outside the core, the Men of Iron rebelled against humanity, in the core, Men of Stone and Iron continued to co-exist.

I think I’m leaning toward a theory they and the Men of Iron were a form of indentured workers. Think House Goliath, but done well.

Working together with the Ironkin and COGs, when the Men of Iron rebelled, they either joined in to some degree whilst maintaining their mining operations, or kept out of it entirely having killed whatever human overseers might’ve existed.

Will definitely need to finish reading it though, as there may be other crumbs to flesh out or refute this early wibbling.

My current working headcanon is the Men of Gold overseers that accompanied the Men of Stone/Kin into the core were the original First Ancestors, and they built the ancestor cores. The fall of the Dark Age of Technology and resulting Age of Strife meant they were cut off (or decided to isolate themselves voluntarily, maybe to avoid getting involved in the rebellion of the Men of Iron vs. humanity war). Eventually the Gold overseers/First Ancestors died off and/or were uploaded into the cores, who became the Votann.

In the absence of the Men of Gold, the original purpose of the Men of Stone gets forgotten/altered. Instead of mining and expanding but with the eventual purpose of returning raw materials to Terra and other original core worlds around Terra, they keep on going, in the galactic core. Sort of like self-replicating Von Neumann machines.

I’m still hung up on the “fact” that pre-Golden Age, every exploratory ship or fleet went equipped with one or more STC Databases to enable them to get established as easily as possible.

And so whilst the Votann codex mentions the Votann included STCs, I think the Gilded One was just a human of some kind.

I’ll also freely admit I’m somewhat taken with my own, not that well supported right now, that Votann may well have been a Company, like Weyland-Yutani that sent automated ships into the deep core, loaded with Automata and the means to clone adapted slaves - hence the ongoing tradition of Cloneskeins for reproduction.

It adds tragedy and triumph to it, and offers certain explanations to things which, for now, remain a mystery.

Lifting this quote for Lexicanum, I think I may have found further support for my theory.

3rd Rulebook, apparently wrote: The Men of Gold are a mysterious sub-sect of Humanity.[1]
According to ancient sources, the Men of Gold appeared sometime during the Age of Terra, joining the Emperor as he watched and nurtured humanity. To watch and learn from Mankind, the Golden Race spreads across the face of Old Earth, multiplying and establishing Order and Civilization on the anarchy of Nature. Though physically and emotionally superior, the Golden Race eventually created the Men of Stone for the purpose of colonizing the Galaxy.[2] In time, the Men of Stone supplanted the Men of Gold and by M21 their influence had waned.[1] It is ultimately unknown what happened to the Men of Gold.

Men of Stone does seem to describe the Kin - and would, if I’m right, confirm them to be an artificial sub-species of humanity.

Yes, the description of the Men of Stone in Keeper Cripias' account do square well with that of the Kin. Gloriously so.

However, there is also the tale and proofs of voidsman Kron to consider.

I think that these allegorical myths must be understood as simplified and above all compressed retellings of vast swathes of history. As such, both artificially created subspecies designed for space mining in extreme environs, and cyborg beings with mineral chip implants may be referred to as the Men of Stone in these legends. The cyborg variants seemingly being the main driving force in ancient human technological development, the artificially designed Kin of Homo Sapiens Rotundus being primarily a colonization and astral mining effort of the galactic core in particular.

The terms Men of Stone and Men of Iron contain teeming spectra of distinct design models, upgrades over many centuries and radically different solutions to catapult the expansion and scientific mastery of human civilization to the stars in record time.

The quasi-corporate logo style of many Kin Leagues should be understood as a reference to ancient makers.

Finally, the triumph of the Kin in the long run is phenomenal. They are basically living in hardy Dwarf heaven, as if beleaguered fantasy Dwarfs had died and came to an afterlife where their genius and thorough toil could lift them well above the longshanking rabble.

I'm laughing all the way to the bank. This codex is one of the best things to ever be written for Warhammer 40'000, and one of the most Dwarven tomes I've ever had the pleasure to read. And it's in space!

Ah ah ah. In spaaaaaaaaace, thank you!

Still haven’t finished reading it (a pox upon you Skyrim!) but I echo that it’s got some really excellent background.

Whilst 40K has traditionally been a POV Mythos, with a significant “well who bloody knows” 29,000 years between now and the rise of The Emperor, it’s still not terribly easy to drop in “and they were there all the time” smoothly. Anyone can shoehorn in new lore, but the Votann stuff feels seem less.

No changes to the underlying canon, such as it exists in 40K terms, but pegged to bits and pieces here and there. And in turn, it fleshes out and adds info to those missing 29,000 years in a similarly mythic way.

My favourite thing is the Kin haven’t really worried about their origins and how accurate their understanding is, because it doesn’t help you mine that seem of Stuffonium now, does it?

Tantalisingly? There are mentions of other, currently unnamed Xenos species living in the Deep Core, giving further room for more new stuff.


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There’s also the possibility the Kin themselves were never a slave species as such, at least not in the way I described.

Whilst I’ve little trouble accepting they were alway Cloneskeined, that simply may have been humanity’s answer at the time to galactic exploration.

Even right now in the real world it’s something we need to consider for galactic travel. We’ve identified a lot of planets in the Goldilocks Zones, where based on size of stars, orbiting planets and distances there between, a given world is most likely to have an Earth approximate environment. We also have the theory of terraforming. I couldn’t tell you how far along we are with that theory though, but I suspect it’s been modelled and even put into practice in lab conditions;

And so the Kin may be the ancestors of overseers/employees sent out into the void to the Deep Core. The automata sent with them there primarily to get going, whilst the human contingent examined the exact environmentals in play, put their own DNA as the basic template into the Cloneskeins, and started to produce beings who culturally were seen as legitimate offspring.

Given the trials and tribulations of surviving the deep core, strong bonds between the peoples became the norm. The automata at all points respected parts of the community who could exploit resources they hadn’t quite perfected Cloneskein adaptations for.

Imagine a society where everyone is designed and in a sense programmed for the plentiful work on offer. Many of the situations which can lead to crime (predominantly poverty) kind of fall away when you have 100% employment, and the ability and opportunity to design your offspring.

And so they survived the Dark Age of Technology, having long since been a cohesive blend of Men and Machines. Don’t treat your Men of Iron as a slave caste, and they’re much less likely to have wholesale beef with you. I dare say something did kick off, but it evidently wasn’t a unified front from renegade machines, and so it was dealt with.

Plus with their hardened souls, and no emergent renegade psyker DNA strands, no Daemonic Incursions etc.

My thoughts would be perhaps similar to Ircandus there, in terms of what the Men of Gold were. I see them as engineers, likely also genetically mutated. Something like a Navigator but considerably more technologically refined.

Although the usual assumption is that the Men of Iron, tired of being a slave race, broke free and rebelled, it would be interesting if perhaps there was something else.

Perhaps at one point the Men of Iron were part of society as they are with the Kin. And that was the norm during that period. The humans flourished and colonised a great deal of space. And then the little voices in human society say that they are taking work away from real humans. Those wheedling little voices that try to gain something from causing disruption, or seek to blame others for their own failings. Who can really tell what they are thinking behind those metal exteriors? Why should they be given the same rights as humans? They earn the same wage as you, why do they deserve that? Then gangs start killing the Iron ones, pogroms and low level violence occur as those voices get picked up by gullible ears. Until eventually the Men of Iron snap and start to fight back. And they fight back hard and suddenly all those quiet hard working members of society stop maintaining all those things in their jobs. As the Men of Iron were keeping everything ticking over merrily and suddenly society starts to collapse. Humans eventually win the war and ban AI. All that blame ends up on the heads of the Men of Iron of course. It's their fault for defending themselves. And so it goes down in history. Without their workforce and relying purely on the STCs and technology they are ripe for a fall when the Dark Age of Technology catastrophe occurs. They don't truly understand their technology, it was made by a select few and others maintained and understood it. In that way we can see the eventual transformation once again in 40k, a similar repetition of history. The Mechanicum in particular, a dark analogue of the lost engineers of the past.

Meanwhile in the core, the cloneskein and the Ironkin work side by side. They were perhaps a lower caste of society, genetically mutated for the tasks in hand. Robots in the literal sense of the word and thus just the same as the metal Kin. Working in such difficult conditions, you trust the people side by side, you have respect and empathy for the ones who work as hard as you. And instead, those in the core stay a close knit society that doesn't have the same downfall..

In the core in a relatively self sufficient society with plenty of manufacturing still on going, they get through the DAOT without too much strife. Of course with all that mineral wealth at their disposal and as the Votann weaken, greed becomes a greater driving force in Kin society. Perhaps at last they are starting to become like the other humans in ages lost.

I haven't read any of the new fluff. Does it state anywhere exactly how much contact the Squats of Necromunda have with the LoV?

It acknowledges them, but to be honest that’s Ominpotent Narrator acknowledgement, so it’s entirely possible The Leagues, which can be quite insular, and the Kindreds which comprise them, don’t know of them. Or to some extent even care.

Also worth noting with The Core there are Kindreds which aren’t part of a League, and they’re typically left alone, as there’s no particular “join or die” feeling.

Necromunda is leagues away.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Imagine a society where everyone is designed and in a sense programmed for the plentiful work on offer. Many of the situations which can lead to crime (predominantly poverty) kind of fall away when you have 100% employment, and the ability and opportunity to design your offspring.

A lot of Votann lore honestly sounds like Amazon under Bezos. Yes, you have 'work' except you're genetically engineered to think peeing in bottles to skip breaks is cool and staying in a warehouse during a tornado is seen as feature, not a bug. These nice spying barcode scanners that check if you did quota and send warnings if you drop below X scans a minute? It's now given designer shell and called 'kin' to make you love it. They probably have ZenBooths too.

"THE COMPUTER IS YOUR FRIEND!" All that is lacking is the security clearance INFRARED

Plus with their hardened souls, and no emergent renegade psyker DNA strands, no Daemonic Incursions etc.

And also no potential of evolution as a species or risk your dron-- I mean [insert corporate corpspeak title for slaves before sending email] will revolt. This can be seen as both good and bad. Imagine your sense of smell and taste was removed so you could shuffle manure without ever feeling nauseous - I guess it makes you immune to some airborne toxins so it's all good, eh?

Honestly? That’s the horror behind the Leagues, if my theory holds enough water!

They’re tools. Well made. Long forgotten. But tools all the same. Designed and programmed to gather resources for long dead masters, and as a result of frankly questionable free will as a result.

This also ties into some of the other sinister elements of 40k, such as the Throne and Helm Mechanicus of Knightly Houses, which are known to change one’s personality, or allow a Superior to override your own actions.

The most egregious example of this are the Heresy Era Tech Thralls. At their most basic, it’s a control helm shoved on the melon of random passers by. The Priests then control your motor functions entirely, but your mind otherwise remains your own. So you can witness you and yours being marched, heedless of injuries and casualties, into the teeth of enemy fire. Like a super gnarly sleep paralysis.

The Kin themselves are, again according to my own theory and not necessarily canon, a lie. Their entire society built upon the commands and orders of long since dead Corporate Overlords. Every bit as artificial as their Cog and Ironkin.


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 Olthannon wrote:
Necromunda is leagues away.

Boooooo!

Here, have a internet.

 cuda1179 wrote:
I haven't read any of the new fluff. Does it state anywhere exactly how much contact the Squats of Necromunda have with the LoV?

They acknowledge that they are kin. The book talks about groups of kin splintering off for various reasons and they don't really keep track of where they go. They don't even know the exact number of how many kin there are within the core. They also acknowledge that they have been called many different names by other races (squats, demiurg, gnostari etc.) and they simply don't care about it to correct them.

There's also no indicator on how long their lifespan is. Which would make it easier to speculate how far away they could travel in one lifetime. Considering they use warp travel to make multiple small hops. They could be anywhere they wanted to go.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

The Kin themselves are, again according to my own theory and not necessarily canon, a lie. Their entire society built upon the commands and orders of long since dead Corporate Overlords. Every bit as artificial as their Cog and Ironkin.

What's the lie? They openly acknowledge and accept they are engineered. They aren't automaton meat puppets like servitors though, even if their cultural predispositions are skewed by long ago engineering, such as a tendency to focus on more capital goods rather than consumer goods and quality of life.

Well, they don’t see themselves as automatons anyway.

They’re a suspiciously ordered society. And given they’re all keen on and adept at resource gathering, there is the question of whether have the capacity to want to do anything else.


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 D6Damager wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
I haven't read any of the new fluff. Does it state anywhere exactly how much contact the Squats of Necromunda have with the LoV?

They acknowledge that they are kin. The book talks about groups of kin splintering off for various reasons and they don't really keep track of where they go. They don't even know the exact number of how many kin there are within the core. They also acknowledge that they have been called many different names by other races (squats, demiurg, gnostari etc.) and they simply don't care about it to correct them.

There's also no indicator on how long their lifespan is. Which would make it easier to speculate how far away they could travel in one lifetime. Considering they use warp travel to make multiple small hops. They could be anywhere they wanted to go.

Necromunda does info on life expectancy. I’ll need to consult my books later, but it’s definitely far in excess of human standard. There’s something in the back of my head that an adolescent starts mining around the age of 40? But I’m genuinely not sure if that’s me misremembering Squat and Dwarf lore as League/Necromunda lore.

Think I’ve finally got the words for my thoughts on Kin being STC products.

Right now, as far as they’re concerned, they’re the descendents of The Ancestors.

Yet…if I’m right, they’re not. They’re creations and tools of the Ancestors. Their pragmatic ‘focus on what matters, lad’ attitude may not be cultural, but designed into them. They’re pragmatic not by choice or temperament, but by careful design, arguably to ensure they never rebelled.

The perversity there is that it will always be so, because the Cloneskein will always, always ensure it. And so, they ultimately lack free will. Certain options don’t occur to them, because it’s not allowed for it to occur to them. They’re free to do whatever they’re told, not what whatever they want.

That’s…horrifying. At least to my mind.

And it's beautiful. Imagine being able to work hard during a long life, without ever being unhappy with your toil and task in life.

Like a tool well forged.

In short, it's Dwarf heaven. Also grimdark to boot.

Turn the steak around. Is it not wrong to put slaves to tasks which they ultimately are unhappy with? Why not design the slaves to be happy with their task and find fulfilment in their toil? What could be more beautiful than perfection of function?

Nay, pity the unrefined raw longshanking manlings instead! Their flesh and essence is but a random hodgepodge of contradictory neurotics, falsehoods and selfish desires, spat out by the rutting chance of evolution. How much suffering and bloodshed and destruction does not result from man's imperfect being? Why not make a better man, and do away with all the evils of life? Why not design a better being from the ground up, stable and dependable, clever and strong? Why not forge the perfect tool?

There is a cyclical beauty in this pragmatic futuristic design of slaves. In ancient Mesopotamian mythology, man is but clay, given shape to serve the gods.

From the Enuma Elish, the Babylonian creation myth:

When the gods like men
Bore the work and suffered the toll
The toil of the gods was great,
The work was heavy, the distress was much.

...

You have slaughtered a god together
With his personality
I have removed your heavy work
I have imposed your toil on man.

Furthermore, the first prototypes of humans in Mesopotamian mythology were unable to reproduce, and only later did the gods grant them this power. Cloneskein echoes?

 Karak Norn Clansman wrote:
And it's beautiful. Imagine being able to work hard during a long life, without ever being unhappy with your toil and task in life.

Like a tool well forged.

In short, it's Dwarf heaven. Also grimdark to boot.

Turn the steak around. Is it not wrong to put slaves to tasks which they ultimately are unhappy with? Why not design the slaves to be happy with their task and find fulfilment in their toil? What could be more beautiful than perfection of function?

Nay, pity the unrefined raw longshanking manlings instead! Their flesh and essence is but a random hodgepodge of contradictory neurotics, falsehoods and selfish desires, spat out by the rutting chance of evolution. How much suffering and bloodshed and destruction does not result from man's imperfect being? Why not make a better man, and do away with all the evils of life? Why not design a better being from the ground up, stable and dependable, clever and strong? Why not forge the perfect tool?

"My gift to industry is the genetically engineered worker, or Genejack. Specially designed for labor, the Genejack's muscles and nerves are ideal for his task, and the cerebral cortex has been atrophied so that he can desire nothing except to perform his duties. Tyranny, you say? How can you tyrannize someone who cannot feel pain?"

~ Chairman Sheng-ji Yang,
"Essays on Mind and Matter"

All things considered, enjoying the toil is the least grimdark thing I could think of for a clone race in 40k. Imagine if working gave you fulfillment. Humans won't even have that once work is no longer needed. But to enjoy working in and of itself? While not something I'd sign up for, it's not as bad as the best worlds in the Imperium. It's almost like Orks, who enjoy the fight.

 TheBestBucketHead wrote:
All things considered, enjoying the toil is the least grimdark thing I could think of for a clone race in 40k. Imagine if working gave you fulfillment. Humans won't even have that once work is no longer needed. But to enjoy working in and of itself? While not something I'd sign up for, it's not as bad as the best worlds in the Imperium. It's almost like Orks, who enjoy the fight.

I wonder if it's not toil or work... but greed or wealth. Work towards gain might serve their original or intended purpose (similar to Orks and fighting). Plus it could be related to something I was wondering about before... what is the trade-off to being less noticeable to the warp? They seem to be highly intelligent and technologically adept, and highly content to work or seek gain... but maybe they have less understanding/appreciation/desire for other facets of life.

 TheBestBucketHead wrote:
All things considered, enjoying the toil is the least grimdark thing I could think of for a clone race in 40k. Imagine if working gave you fulfillment. Humans won't even have that once work is no longer needed. But to enjoy working in and of itself? While not something I'd sign up for, it's not as bad as the best worlds in the Imperium. It's almost like Orks, who enjoy the fight.

It’s more the outsider perspective. We have in the Votann about as Utopian a society as 40K allows. No shadowy cabal that just happens to be really good at getting others to pull together ala Tau. No oppressive regime ala Imperium.

But…only because they’ve essentially been programmed that way. That brings in the awesomely tricky question of Free Will, and whether the Kin have that. They’re not happy mining stuff having tried other avenues or ways of fulfilment. They enjoy it because they’re designed to do so, from the ground up. If you’re forced to enjoy something, even if you don’t know it, are you truly enjoying it? Are you truly a free and sentient creature, or just a fleshy machine fulfilling your wetware programming?

And depending on how you read their background, it’s the Votann that, in a variation of Lizardmen Spawning in WHFB and AoS, decide what each Kin is going to be, rather than existing Kin deciding what traits the next generation is going to need for their next venture. Not children of insane gods. Goods produced by insane machines.

I know I’m not doing a good job here, and I’m struggling to really get my point and thinking across in a particularly persuasive way. Sincere apologies if it seems I’m just repeating myself over and over. The right words do exist, they’re just not quite coming to me.

I think what I’m getting at is the Kin’s survival comes from Having No Say In The Matter. They have all these wonderful toys, and such potential as a result of them. But their design schematics prevent them doing anything other than the task their inventors assigned millennia ago.

They’re kind of like Orks in that regard I suppose. They universally enjoy mining, and will do anything to go mining. But have no capacity to discover what else they might be good at, if they weren’t solely programmed for mining.

*though one does wonder what Illuminor Szeras might be able to do with such a toy. If (and it’s a big if) he or another has some ancient stock of Necrontyr DNA in stasis somewhere, he could finally crack the reversal of biotransference. Even if he doesn’t, I can see him having a bloody good try at it through trial and error.

I certainly agree that it's bad, but considering the alternatives, just enjoying working sounds decent.

Humans do not get to choose what makes us have fun, or enjoy things. If you're predisposed towards enjoying alcohol, and you get addicted, it's sad. If you get addicted to video games, it's sad. Would you rather survive in a forest, surrounded by predators, with no modern luxuries to being addicted to video games? Both are bad, but I'd choose being addicted to video games. A society which can only get pleasure by following the programming their forefathers forced upon them is certainly grimdark, but less so than the Imperial citizens who don't even get to enjoy it.

But I will clarify again that I don't think it an ideal, just something better than the other races get. Orks being the exception.

@TheBestBucketHead & @Mad Doc Grotsnik: You are both doing a tremendous job expressing the crux of the matter. Hat off.

@gravitywell: Which does rhyme well with the Men of Stone not being philosophically inclined, and the monsters of the Warp preferring the real life of man, and not the half-life of the Stone Men.

Granted, the real deal with the Men of Stone as a driving force during the Dark Age of Technology ought to be found in the direction of cyborg Kron, with Stone symbolizing silicon chips. But the biologically programmed characteristics of the Kin also run in somewhat similar lines, and the association of Dwarf miners with stone is obvious.

Ergo, the allegorical Men of Stone and the Men of Gold and Men of Iron may be understood as compressions of many different but somewhat similar major phenomena which went on during the Dark Age of Technology, all rolled together.

For instance, an argument could be made that Men of Gold either refer to genetically enhanced super humans (strong of limbs), or ordinary humans (brought order to nature). More likely, it refers to both. Not either or.

 Karak Norn Clansman wrote:


For instance, an argument could be made that Men of Gold either refer to genetically enhanced super humans (strong of limbs), or ordinary humans (brought order to nature). More likely, it refers to both. Not either or.

I am in the camp that the Men of Gold are rich industrialists that funded and created the Men of Stone to colonize the galaxy. In context of the Leagues, they are the original owners of the corporations that sent them to mine the galactic core.

 KingGarland wrote:

 Karak Norn Clansman wrote:


For instance, an argument could be made that Men of Gold either refer to genetically enhanced super humans (strong of limbs), or ordinary humans (brought order to nature). More likely, it refers to both. Not either or.

I am in the camp that the Men of Gold are rich industrialists that funded and created the Men of Stone to colonize the galaxy. In context of the Leagues, they are the original owners of the corporations that sent them to mine the galactic core.

This. Pre-Votann we could’ve argued the Men of Gold were altruistic. Those with the resources to let man truly escape its cradle world and seek its destiny in the stars. But now? Now they’re looking to be Pretty Awful.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheBestBucketHead wrote:
I certainly agree that it's bad, but considering the alternatives, just enjoying working sounds decent.

Humans do not get to choose what makes us have fun, or enjoy things. If you're predisposed towards enjoying alcohol, and you get addicted, it's sad. If you get addicted to video games, it's sad. Would you rather survive in a forest, surrounded by predators, with no modern luxuries to being addicted to video games? Both are bad, but I'd choose being addicted to video games. A society which can only get pleasure by following the programming their forefathers forced upon them is certainly grimdark, but less so than the Imperial citizens who don't even get to enjoy it.

But I will clarify again that I don't think it an ideal, just something better than the other races get. Orks being the exception.

It’s the complete lack of choice despite an otherwise advanced society. Granted we’ve not had a huge amount of Kin background yet. But the impression I get is that poverty doesn’t really exist for them, as their society is mutually supportive, and there’s plenty of work to go round.

But each and every Kin is specialised in an area. Not because of study. Not because of personal exploration. But because they’re literally made that way. Pre-destiny and all that. And there will be crappy jobs involved.

It is stated in the codex that the highest form of punishment is exile as it prevents a kin's memories from joining the Votann core which is considered the worst thing for a kin.

This implies that criminals do exist within the leagues and that there are various levels of crimes with appropriate levels of punishment.

Meaning that they must have some degree of free will and personal choice, unless you want to say that they were preprogrammed by the Votann to be criminals which then leads to the questions of why they would do that and the ethics of punishment for doing an action you have no choice over.

 KingGarland wrote:
It is stated in the codex that the highest form of punishment is exile as it prevents a kin's memories from joining the Votann core which is considered the worst thing for a kin.

This implies that criminals do exist within the leagues and that there are various levels of crimes with appropriate levels of punishment.

Meaning that they must have some degree of free will and personal choice, unless you want to say that they were preprogrammed by the Votann to be criminals which then leads to the questions of why they would do that and the ethics of punishment for doing an action you have no choice over.

I think the line of argument would be those are the "defectives", just as there are a few tools/products in every production line that fail to perform up to standard. I don't think the Kin claim the First Ancestors or Votann to be infallible.

Anyway, the Urani-Surtr Regulates (URSR) subfaction seem to take certain Kin aspects to their extreme, such as demanding every Kindred maintain as large a population as possible by accepting an ascetic lifestyle with the bare minimum of food, light, air, and heat. The Kin seem to be on a perpetual search for more resources. When they do find them, they don't use them to make consumer goods or otherwise raise the quality of life for themselves, but instead use them to make even more capital goods with which to acquire even more resources. The URSR seem to extend that even to basic life support. Somehow got more food and the energy to make more air and heat? Don't relax, make more Kin.

 KingGarland wrote:
It is stated in the codex that the highest form of punishment is exile as it prevents a kin's memories from joining the Votann core which is considered the worst thing for a kin.

This implies that criminals do exist within the leagues and that there are various levels of crimes with appropriate levels of punishment.

Meaning that they must have some degree of free will and personal choice, unless you want to say that they were preprogrammed by the Votann to be criminals which then leads to the questions of why they would do that and the ethics of punishment for doing an action you have no choice over.

It’s also clear crime is super rare.

The Kin put that down to the strength of their familial bonds and the resulting horror of exile as a punishment.

But. Is it? Is it really the reason? Or is that criminals are just the result of faulty programming?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 KingGarland wrote:
I am in the camp that the Men of Gold are rich industrialists that funded and created the Men of Stone to colonize the galaxy. In context of the Leagues, they are the original owners of the corporations that sent them to mine the galactic core.

This. Pre-Votann we could’ve argued the Men of Gold were altruistic. Those with the resources to let man truly escape its cradle world and seek its destiny in the stars. But now? Now they’re looking to be Pretty Awful.

Aye. Which bounce back to the issue of unpacking tangled categories where several different things seem to have been lumped together, because in the compressed rear-view mirror of history they were close enough to fit a neat category in the material trinity of the Men of Gold, Stone and Iron. Later on I'll have to lay it out in a thread of its own. But take mamspaghetti's magisterial series of analyses of the Dark Age of Technology over on Reddit, for instance (third post contain the link index). There, an argument is made for the Men of Gold being genetically enhanced super humans by focusing on those parts of background references that would seem to hint that way.

Yet there are other lines of writing which would suggest Men of Gold to be baseline humanity. And with the Votann codex, Men of Gold has taken on a more literal meaning as very likely also refering to people of means and owners of industry. I would argue that all three current interpretations are correct, rolled into one handy allegory (and given that baseline or superhuman do not exclude industrialist, it's an overlap). I think that they are best to be understood as different facets of the Dark Age of Technology that have been lumped together, because in contrast to the Men of Stone and Iron, they make for a natural sweeping category stretching from baseline humans taming nature on Old Earth, to interstellar megacorporations breeding slave races to mine the galactic core, with all manner of genetic engineering poured into these rich owners of industry (and maybe people of lesser means as well).

A note on altruistic Men of Gold: We have long had several indicators that the Dark Age of Technology had a ruthless and dark side, behind the idyllic exterior, the professed ideals and the high living standard. For instance, Gellar fields requiring a comatose psyker to power them, or the Houses of the Navis Nobilite dating back to the Dark Age of Technology. And given that greed and will to expand have been primary driving forces through all of human history, a past involving megacorporations being in the driver's seat during crucial stretches of human history has long seemed plausible in 40k. Especially since the Dark Age of Technology is a lot of science fiction themes rolled into one, very much including megacorporations. And especially so in contrast to the basically Late Antique Roman and parodic Medieval Age of Imperium, where the drive and importance of merchants have wilted, and where industry has lost almost all inventive power. With the Votann codex, the corporate leap of logic has explicit background references to go by, which is another gift from the background writers to the setting as a whole.

Also worth keeping in mind the Kin’s own history will be a result of….the same programming.

Men of Gold? Men that benefit from you putting them on a pedestal to better keep you in line.

Indeed. As per ancient mythologies: You would have to be a stupid creator not to design your creations to worship you.

I wonder what effect that truth (if it is indeed a truth) might have upon the Kin?

I mean, Ancestors are a massive thing for them. To find out those they consider The First Ancestors never gave a fig about the Kin, only about the goodies they might be able to extract.

Biggest hurdle there is the imprinted pragmatism. It’s one thing not to care. It’s quite another not being able to care, no?

It sure is. And therein lies the hidden repulsiveness at the heart of the Kin and their origins. On the surface, they might seem like the most successful Dark Age of Technology remnant by a long shot, still going strong, still pursuing their mission, still preserving the better material ways of ancient humanity (even though the most advanced ancient spearhead technologies are well beyond them). And their civilization is one that build wonders across the stars and is characterized by order and perfectionist toil.

Yet scratch the surface, and the grimdark is there right from the start. A slave race designed not to care that they are slaves. And historical developments among the Kin has ensured that nowadays Squats are willing to strip-mine entire worlds and indifferently fight down their native inhabitants who do not run away.

It's a more nuanced grimdark craziness than that of Orks, Chaos and the Imperium of Man, but the Kin sure are no naïve upstarts willing to extend a helping hand and assume the best of new encounters.

GW blew past expectations this time around. I've occasionally held brainstorming sessions with friends on how one could design Squats to be more than just Dwarfs in space, and fit into 40k with strong themes of their own just as Eldar do. Asteroid mining was a given, but I can only take off my hat for Games Workshop's studio folks gunning for clunky AI and Dark Age of Technology era of discovery remnant themes. The basic premise is exquisite, and the presentation is polished.

What's not to love? The fact that the new Squats inspire these background discussions, in a way that old Squats never managed to do, means that they've hit the bull's eye in this case.

Do you think that Kin are programmed to be the type of people that work when depressed? So if they do ever find out, they just go to work, depressed, and when they stop being useful, they kill or expel them?

As a person who went from believing in a loving god, to the understanding that the universe is cruel and uncaring, I think the Kin realizing their ancestors made them purely as tools would cause a split. One group would likely look for meaning, and that side is likely to join chaos, or serve the Emperor. The others might be emboldened by this. They enjoyed working for their ancestors, but now they can enjoy it for themselves. They can continue doing what they love, but without the need to please someone.

In all likelihood, the second group would never get the opportunity. The first may prosper, or die, or splinter, but the absurdists of Votann society would likely splinter or be suppressed. A new generation of clones, or even the same generations, fighting to protect or destroy their society. Possibly only to emerge as he same society, no matter which side won.

To toil is to live. Why not enjoy it? One must imagine the Leagues happy.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Or is that criminals are just the result of faulty programming?

An interesting thought that I won't even begin to claim has any basis in lore nor would I say is necessarily a part of my own head cannon, but simply an interesting thought worth sharing: A kin programmed to be a criminal every now and then would demonstrate the consequences of straying from society's norms, which would help to tamp down any faulty programming that might occur.

Bloody good interesting thought!

I think it would be hard to definitely prove something about the Ancestors to the point of it being accepted as truth among the Kin. Even if it could be shown that the Kin were meant to be tools only, I think the inherent pragmatism of the Kin would not lead to any huge existential crisis. They might shrug and then just go back to their work. Whatever their purpose was, they have survived and will continue to do so.

On another note, maybe the old theme of Dwarven treasure hoard can be the Kin dutifully stockpiling resources for a delivery or "pickup" that never occurs, even though they themselves may no longer be quite sure why they do so. They could stockpile, stack up those ingots, feel good about it for some vague indescribable reason, then go back to mine some more.

Iracundus wrote:
I think it would be hard to definitely prove something about the Ancestors to the point of it being accepted as truth among the Kin. Even if it could be shown that the Kin were meant to be tools only, I think the inherent pragmatism of the Kin would not lead to any huge existential crisis. They might shrug and then just go back to their work. Whatever their purpose was, they have survived and will continue to do so.

On another note, maybe the old theme of Dwarven treasure hoard can be the Kin dutifully stockpiling resources for a delivery or "pickup" that never occurs, even though they themselves may no longer be quite sure why they do so. They could stockpile, stack up those ingots, feel good about it for some vague indescribable reason, then go back to mine some more.

Step 1. Collect Resources

Step 2. Pile it up neatly over there

Step 3.

Step 4. Biiiiig profit!

Though there is an amusing possibility in play. They were misprogrammed. I mean when you’re sending expeditions into the Deep Core to mine stuff for you, you need that to be self propagating. What if the Kin only ever put the resources they mined into expansion as the result of a single faulty line of coding?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Though there is an amusing possibility in play. They were misprogrammed. I mean when you’re sending expeditions into the Deep Core to mine stuff for you, you need that to be self propagating. What if the Kin only ever put the resources they mined into expansion as the result of a single faulty line of coding?

It does seem like that way. They seem to subsist on a pretty spartan lifestyle except for the Ymyr (maybe they are ones with more intact stockpiling code) with the URSR taking this to its most extreme, paring consumption down to a minimum in favor of making more Kin. Perhaps long ago they did work as intended but then with time and extended periods of hard radiation, maybe they got corrupted (not in the sense of Chaos but by errors being introduced). Their Men of Gold masters forgot about them or had bigger things to deal with such as the fall of the Dark Age of Technology and the upheaval of the Age of Strife. The Kin get forgotten and their errors go unfixed so they keep going deeper into the Core, delving, mining, stockpiling, and using some small amount of those resources to expand and repeat the cycle. Biological Von Neumann machines.

The faultiness could also come from the Votann themselves as it was repeated stated that over the millennium they have been getting more and more corrupted and glitchy.

I'm working on the backstory of my army, mostly to justify some conversions I made.

My kin are the descendants of a clan that long ago lost their Votann Core, although exactly how this happened is vague. Some say that they failed to protect it during an enemy invasion, others that it was a natural disaster. Either way they are viewed by other kin with a bit of suspicion, though not truly ostrosized.

Having long ago lost their homeworld they have become a fleet based race, making a living on the skirts of Imperial and LoV spaces in any way they can. To the Imperials they pass themselves off as abhuman miners, laborers, freighters, and mercenaries. Only a fraction of their former industrial base remains, and the equipment they use is a mix of relics from their past, rare newly made items, and purchased Imperial tech they have been able to upgrade to near Votann standards.

 cuda1179 wrote:
I'm working on the backstory of my army, mostly to justify some conversions I made.

My kin are the descendants of a clan that long ago lost their Votann Core, although exactly how this happened is vague. Some say that they failed to protect it during an enemy invasion, others that it was a natural disaster. Either way they are viewed by other kin with a bit of suspicion, though not truly ostrosized.

Having long ago lost their homeworld they have become a fleet based race, making a living on the skirts of Imperial and LoV spaces in any way they can. To the Imperials they pass themselves off as abhuman miners, laborers, freighters, and mercenaries. Only a fraction of their former industrial base remains, and the equipment they use is a mix of relics from their past, rare newly made items, and purchased Imperial tech they have been able to upgrade to near Votann standards.

Do you have links to any of your models, it’d be cool to see them. Like the back ground too.

It's a interesting thought to guess at how the Kin would react when they learn about their history/purpose.

What about the AI? I've wondered if they are a true AI since they seem to willingly participate. But, then like the Kin maybe they are programmed for the arrangement.

Same sort of question for the Votann itself...

I'm still working my way through the codex myself, but my takeaway so far hasn't been that all the work and mining and resource acquisition is because the Kin were programmed that way as a slave-race. I thought it was made very clear that when whatever happened to cut them off from Far Space so long ago meant that survival in the harsh environment of the Core suddenly got even harder.

So every resource, new or recycled, was possibly the difference between survival or the extinction of Kindred, Hold, League, or maybe even the whole race. So they just collect, and maintain, and recycle, and explore, and survey, and mine....and survive.

I'm not needing to look much harder for the GrimDark, honestly. Because while they have retained old technologies undreamed of by the AdMech, it's very specifically the technologies or variants of the technologies you would bring just to survive the Core - not the full breadth of the High Technology humanity used to have. And everything they do, everything they take, everything they believe, is all centered around basic survival in the place that only they (and orks and Tyranids, apparently) can survive. But, it's not all bad. The very harshness they must center their entire society around surviving is also what provides them their freedom and security from all the other malign threats of the galaxy, not least of which is the Imperium that has no idea just how vast, varied, and rich the Leagues' empire actually is.

But, when it all comes down to it, they are the dwarves and they are digging a hole, and if they ever stop digging, the hole will kill them.

Yes, surviving in the galactic core is a big part of it, and the analogy to digging a hole that can kill them is wonderful, but a lot of the origins are likewise implied throughout the codex.

They were clearly genetically engineered. They were clearly sent to the Core to mine it (see also stray elderly kindred names of a corporate nature). They clearly excel at it. They clearly are a remarkably ordered society. And the Cloneskeins will help ensure that it remains so.

Now, ordinary humans do not work in that way, no matter how much they might wish to. Draw from that your own conclusions.

The unspoken implications of the codex is one of its genius bits: You arrive at the supreme being, namely a fantasy Dwarf in space, by a disturbing route. They are engineered to be that way. It is not all culture and historical adaptations to the environment of the Core. It must also be genetically programmed into them.

The bright side being that the same traits that made them excellent self-sustaining slaves in all but name, has stood them in fantastic stead once they were cut loose and had to run the gauntlet independently.

They were made to thrive in this harsh Core mining life, and that they have succeeded in doing beyond all expectations.

Remember that interpreting the stray references to the Dark Age of Technology is intentionally made to be a detective case, a puzzle with only a few pieces left. It is written as a tantalizing mystery. I can recommend checking out this analysis (link index) of previous DAoT material for reference. Taking it at face value is fun, but thinking deeper about it is even more fun.

Cheers

- - -

Bonus: My friend JAB's own codex impressions, written prior to showing him this thread:

JAB wrote:"I especially like how the codex starts optimistic and builds up toward that which makes them demented and crazy like the rest of the galaxy.

My feeling is that the Kin are designed to carry out a task which no longer needs doing. They, like their Votanns, have had to work for too long.

I do not believe they were intented for such violent and ruthless exploitation for all eternity. Such as depleting planets with the population still on them.

The Kin carry out their task without any consideration for whom it would have been of gain. All there is, is exploitation and work into the grave so that future generations shall be able to toil and labour just as hard into their own graves.

The promise of a better tomorrow for human and Kin is gone. The toil which could have led to a future, without hardship and ache where people can live in joy and wealth, is forgotten and buried.

All there is left, is work for the sake of work.

It is Sauron's utopia."

 Karak Norn Clansman wrote:


Bonus: My friend JAB's own codex impressions, written prior to showing him this thread:

JAB wrote:"I especially like how the codex starts optimistic and builds up toward that which makes them demented and crazy like the rest of the galaxy.

My feeling is that the Kin are designed to carry out a task which no longer needs doing. They, like their Votanns, have had to work for too long.

I do not believe they were intented for such violent and ruthless exploitation for all eternity. Such as depleting planets with the population still on them.

The Kin carry out their task without any consideration for whom it would have been of gain. All there is, is exploitation and work into the grave so that future generations shall be able to toil and labour just as hard into their own graves.

The promise of a better tomorrow for human and Kin is gone. The toil which could have led to a future, without hardship and ache where people can live in joy and wealth, is forgotten and buried.

All there is left, is work for the sake of work.

It is Sauron's utopia."

That nicely fits into overarching themes for 40k, namely that the sins of the fathers are visited on the sons, that the past refuses to die completely, but also returns as horrific mockery of what it used to be.

The Votann build gigantic stockpiles that nobody will ever come to collect, and are genetically forbidden from asking the obvious question of why they toil, just like the Eldar and Orks are sentient weapons fighting on in a war that ended in mutual destruction eons ago, or like Space Marines fighting for a God-Emperor that once set out to abolish the very concept of Gods.

It's a galaxy where the Sorcerer's Apprentice has long been drowned and the animated brooms fight among the soaked ruins.

It’s a tragedy bordering on pathetic. In a good way.

The Votann are almost certainly deliberately engineered for mining, but also for a lack of fundamental freedom.

Hence mining is in their blood. They’re good at it, it provides them what they need. But it’s all they know.

One could point this out to them with, aha, cast iron evidence of their origins and intent behind those origins, but the self same design? Stops them from caring.

And that’s where they border into pathetic. They’re not “Real Boys”. They’re machines, albeit fleshy organic machines. Just as Ford once said “you can have it in any colour, as long as it’s black”, Kin can be anything they want - as long as they want to be a miner.

As noted that they’re Really Good At It, and their purpose furnishes them with everything they need, leading to their longevity and exquisite preservation of things long since lost to humanity fits the farcical nature of 40K nicely.

But there’s also room for a darker side to it, particularly during the Dark Age of Technology. As I’ve speculated, they didn’t fall foul of the Men of Iron, because they seemingly never treated the Men of Iron as anything less than equals. They’re all slaves at the end of the day, and it’s that common station which spared them the doom of earlier humanity. But what if the Kin were part and parcel of that rebellion, with the Votann actively erasing history there, seeing with the rise of The Imperium, a war they didn’t need to fight?

They have the good sense to hide the extent of AI in their society, and protect the Votann. And that knowledge must’ve come from somewhere. That could be the result of early contact with the Great Crusade. Even a single Rogue Trader discovering a Votann, knowing it for what is, and then being horribly murdered as a defensive measure, the existence and nature of the Votann then being a priority, and added to the Cloneskein mix, further removing personal agency from the Kin as a species.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s a tragedy bordering on pathetic. In a good way.

The Votann are almost certainly deliberately engineered for mining, but also for a lack of fundamental freedom.

Hence mining is in their blood. They’re good at it, it provides them what they need. But it’s all they know.

One could point this out to them with, aha, cast iron evidence of their origins and intent behind those origins, but the self same design? Stops them from caring.

And that’s where they border into pathetic. They’re not “Real Boys”. They’re machines, albeit fleshy organic machines. Just as Ford once said “you can have it in any colour, as long as it’s black”, Kin can be anything they want - as long as they want to be a miner.

As noted that they’re Really Good At It, and their purpose furnishes them with everything they need, leading to their longevity and exquisite preservation of things long since lost to humanity fits the farcical nature of 40K nicely.

It also makes for a nice change of pace from the classic tolkienean dwarf trope of them being greedy without any deeper motivation. Squats are not greedy because the story demands it, they are literally made that way and can't help it.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
But there’s also room for a darker side to it, particularly during the Dark Age of Technology. As I’ve speculated, they didn’t fall foul of the Men of Iron, because they seemingly never treated the Men of Iron as anything less than equals. They’re all slaves at the end of the day, and it’s that common station which spared them the doom of earlier humanity. But what if the Kin were part and parcel of that rebellion, with the Votann actively erasing history there, seeing with the rise of The Imperium, a war they didn’t need to fight?

They have the good sense to hide the extent of AI in their society, and protect the Votann. And that knowledge must’ve come from somewhere. That could be the result of early contact with the Great Crusade. Even a single Rogue Trader discovering a Votann, knowing it for what is, and then being horribly murdered as a defensive measure, the existence and nature of the Votann then being a priority, and added to the Cloneskein mix, further removing personal agency from the Kin as a species.

There's a subtle-ish story thread hinted at in the codex about how their whole society is integrated with or infiltrated by the robo-Stasi: They have that saying of ''The Ancestors are always watching'', and that is quite literally true because on one hand, each individuals memories are analyzed and integrated into the Votann core after that individuals demise, and on the other the Ironkin and COG units can upload whatever they learned even more often, if not actually in real time. So, combined with the fact that Squats prize efficiency above all things and that the robo-things make excellent tools and helpers, you'd seldom be more than a few steps away from what effectively constitutes a listening device for Friend Computer. And because of the efficiency fetish, even voicing the desire to get away from them and their 'help' would immediately mark you as suspicious and un-Votann-like, so it's either panopticon all the time or bust for you. Depending on how literal the memory analysis and integration after death is meant to be, even seditious thoughts that you literally never voiced or acted upon for your whole life would be pried from your deep consciousness and analyzed after the fact, so you literally can't even think about rebelling without risking dire consequences for your descendants.

That’s a good point on the “Always Watching”, and again it adds to the wider tragedy that arguably the most internally stable and unified species yet seen are only so because their free will was forcibly removed.

The only thing that’s unclear to me at the moment is who/what is deciding when the next generation is made, and what traits will be included in their Cloneskein. Because if it’s the Votann? That’s another layer to the horror of their existence.

It’s kind of like a twisted take on Lizardmen Spawnings, where their reproduction and replenishment was decided aeons ago by the Old Ones, based on prophecy and that. Or indeed, a technological Hive Mind of the Tyranids.

I mean, fallen Kin and Ironkin are fed back into the Votann, so it can absorb their memories. But what’s it doing with them? It’s not a stretch at all to suggest it uses those memories to analyse the state of the Galaxy, quickly compare its Excel Spreadsheet on the type and number of Kin/Ironkin, and replenish losses from there, ensuring whatever is popped out the other end is suited to the current threat matrix.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s a tragedy bordering on pathetic. In a good way.

The Votann are almost certainly deliberately engineered for mining, but also for a lack of fundamental freedom.

Hence mining is in their blood. They’re good at it, it provides them what they need. But it’s all they know.

One could point this out to them with, aha, cast iron evidence of their origins and intent behind those origins, but the self same design? Stops them from caring.

And that’s where they border into pathetic. They’re not “Real Boys”. They’re machines, albeit fleshy organic machines. Just as Ford once said “you can have it in any colour, as long as it’s black”, Kin can be anything they want - as long as they want to be a miner.

As noted that they’re Really Good At It, and their purpose furnishes them with everything they need, leading to their longevity and exquisite preservation of things long since lost to humanity fits the farcical nature of 40K nicely.

But there’s also room for a darker side to it, particularly during the Dark Age of Technology. As I’ve speculated, they didn’t fall foul of the Men of Iron, because they seemingly never treated the Men of Iron as anything less than equals. They’re all slaves at the end of the day, and it’s that common station which spared them the doom of earlier humanity. But what if the Kin were part and parcel of that rebellion, with the Votann actively erasing history there, seeing with the rise of The Imperium, a war they didn’t need to fight?

They have the good sense to hide the extent of AI in their society, and protect the Votann. And that knowledge must’ve come from somewhere. That could be the result of early contact with the Great Crusade. Even a single Rogue Trader discovering a Votann, knowing it for what is, and then being horribly murdered as a defensive measure, the existence and nature of the Votann then being a priority, and added to the Cloneskein mix, further removing personal agency from the Kin as a species.

The subtle lack of free will and focus on the pragmatic sort of makes them like Orks. They, like Orks, do not suffer existential angst because existential issues will either never occur to them, or they would just shrug it off even if you brought those topics to their attention.

The Kin have found Happiness in Slavery. Their work has set them free. Happy is the slave that does not feel the chain.

Them hiding the existence of the Votann is I think just their pragmatism at work. The Kin were engineered to be smart enough to problem solve, as they would have needed to be in order to survive and build in the Core. They could clearly see that the Adeptus Mechanicus coveted their technology and the size of the Imperium, so they could analyze and determine that bringing the whole Imperium and Mechanicus down on the Kin would not end well for the Kin. I don't necessarily see that as evidence of the Kin being actively involved in the rebellion of the Men of Iron.

After so many thousands of years though, we seem to see glimmers of artistic expression in things like their armor decoration or their animal headed crests. Perhaps their ancient programming is breaking down, leading to the resurfacing of such "wasteful" pursuits as art? Or perhaps even these were planned for as societal steam valves. Just enough so that the Kin don't go stir crazy but not enough for them to truly be mentally and creatively free.

Iracundus wrote:

After so many thousands of years though, we seem to see glimmers of artistic expression in things like their armor decoration or their animal headed crests. Perhaps their ancient programming is breaking down, leading to the resurfacing of such "wasteful" pursuits as art? Or perhaps even these were planned for as societal steam valves. Just enough so that the Kin don't go stir crazy but not enough for them to truly be mentally and creatively free.

Perhaps they developed 'art' as an emergency response after the fact - with the Votann lagging more and more, they hyper-efficient kin often conclude operations before the Votann has calculated their optimal next endeavour. In the ensuing time periode, the Squats face the one enemy they were never equipped to deal with and which they abhorr above all else: free time. And since their society frowns on idleness and thinks vacations are a sin, they desparately scramble for anything that kills time but is seen, or can be seen, as productive, so adamantium-block scrimshawing it is.

That adds a funny twist to another dwarven trope: instead of high-quality craftsmanship being their pride and favourite pastime, it's more like something shameful that you don't really talk about, because acknowledging why you do them would mean to admit that there's something wrong with the Votann and that your ancestor core is starting to fail.

On the art?

Music and The Arts in general are spectacularly human things. They exist in us on an instinctual level, and have done for many hundreds of thousands of years.

Other species have been observed using tools in the wild, and a slim few have been observed honing tools. But none, outside of captivity and human demonstration, have demonstrated art.

So for Votann and other Abhuman species, perhaps it’s some intrinsically human thing which can’t be removed. Or indeed should be removed.

Before formal writing, we had art. Renditions of beast and tools and techniques. See the blackboard or white boards we were educated via? Same principle. A way to convey information. The key to our gross success as a species when, physically, we’re pretty weedy and unimpressive.

So, why remove it? Some of my hobbies involve artistic expression. And I find it massively de-stressing. If I’ve had to deal with an unreasonable melt at work, breaking out my cross stitch or resin moulds acts as a proper mental break from my profession. Granted nothing I do is particularly fancy, but it all refocuses my attention and literally takes my mind off my day job.

You want an efficient slave species (as we proposed the Kin to be)? Let them have their art. Don’t eradicate it. Arts and Crafts let us blow off steam in genuinely healthy ways.

If it wouldn’t be breaching Dakka’s P&R ban? I’d point to arts and crafts being so strong an instinct, it’s never been beaten out of us. Oppressed? Sure. Suppressed? Definitely. But never halted. Ever.

Lovely hypothesis on Dwarven artistic creativity in space!

But the good Mad Doc is right on target here in my view. The human drive for creativity and creating beauty is such an integral part of what it means to be alive, sentient and endowed with able hands. And it is such a destressing way to find fulfilment and meaning in work and life that it might actually be beneficial to dial it up further from the evolved natural genome, in order to enhance the willing thrall race of perfectionist artisans.

It makes perfect sense for their makers to boost Squat artistic inclinations on a genetic level.

And I say this as someone who has always had a helpful and kind personality that basically can be summed up as a servant or even slave mentality, and as someone known for both hard work, focus, perfectionism and creativity. Art is good for you, and the gene-modded slave.

Cheers

It could also be a way to help maintain sanity in a longer lived species.

Of course, we have no base reference for what baseline human standard lifetimes were when the Kin were first sent forth. But if it was a genuine Golden Age for all mankind, and not just the equivalent 1%, we could argue overall life expectancy would be up, as we see in wealthier countries compared to poorer countries. But whether without rejuvenation procedures we know to exist in 40K we ever lived to 200 years old, we can only guess at.

But we know the Kin do live that long - most ably confirmed in the Necromunda background.

Their desire for perfection and patience in design work could be a deliberate design choice by their makers, as a way to ensure insanity and ennui are staved off over their extended lifespans by an obsessive mindset over their crafting. Not to mention if the Evil Unfeeling Capitalist Overlords In Spaaaaaaaace theory is correct? It’s how they ensure their fleshy little drones aren’t producing crap, but high end gubbins each and every time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now, on a college aside? Arks of Omen, and a specific piece of Votann art has set my mind a whirl.

The Arks are of course Space Hulks. Massive conglomerates of warp faring space craft mooshed and squished together. Alien, Imperial, Chaos, all different eras haphazardly melded into a drifting hulk of unknown potential.

The downside is they tend to float in and out of the warp, seemingly at random. And are often filled with nasties such as Orks and Genestealers.

But if you have the cajones, opportunity and resources to board one, the rewards can be staggering.

Which brings me on to the art piece in question….



That appears to be a ship for strip mining planets…..by engulfing the planets (rumours it was made from Galactus’ left knacker remain unfounded)

Now, I’d imagine such mining involves graviton weapons and tractor beam type things. Which to me suggests such a craft would be ideal for tackling a Space Hulk.

Not necessarily a weaponised Space Hulk (be it Orks or Chaos or whomever) because those tend to shoot back. But one simply drifting it’s way around.

Pull it in, have it pinned as best you can. Presumably the Kin would have scanners to detect things, which would allow them to identify and target Warp Engines for shutdown, hopefully greatly or entirely reducing the chances of it slipping back into the warp.

Then…take your time taking it apart, potentially ship-by-ship, especially if you’ve a mind to properly study them?

 Eilif wrote:
I'm not a fan of the Votaan, but I do appreciate that they went dang near all the way in making them not-Squats.

The look, fluff, etc., that GW has given us is different in so many ways, that it seems fair to keep them almost entirely separate. Humanoids that probably have a similar antecedent, but have evolved in vastly different directions with different results. There really is no need to try and work the Votaan cloning, supercomputers or other nonsense into the Squat history. Votaan is Votaan and Squats is Squats.

So don't bother trying to retcon or reconcile them. Far easier, more coherent, and more sensible to just let them be very distant and very divergent branches of the same very-old tree.

Yeah, if GW can't even bother making the votanns survivors from the old lore than clearly they don't respect their past works as I do. Best for them to never talk about it at all.

 lcmiracle wrote:

 Eilif wrote:
I'm not a fan of the Votaan, but I do appreciate that they went dang near all the way in making them not-Squats.

The look, fluff, etc., that GW has given us is different in so many ways, that it seems fair to keep them almost entirely separate. Humanoids that probably have a similar antecedent, but have evolved in vastly different directions with different results. There really is no need to try and work the Votaan cloning, supercomputers or other nonsense into the Squat history. Votaan is Votaan and Squats is Squats.

So don't bother trying to retcon or reconcile them. Far easier, more coherent, and more sensible to just let them be very distant and very divergent branches of the same very-old tree.

Yeah, if GW can't even bother making the votanns survivors from the old lore than clearly they don't respect their past works as I do. Best for them to never talk about it at all.

They do though; the codex has subfactions that are basically all the old stories of what happened to the squats. There's the Necromunda Squats, which are kind of isolated from the larger League society and thus much closer to the old space dwarf fluff, there's background for leagues that were eradicated by the Tyranids and Orks, and there's stories about Leagues that operated with/for the Tau and misrepresented themselves or were misunderstood as the only surviving Squats, which of course wraps up the questions about the Demiurg. It's actually rather well done, at least if measured by the usual GW benchmark for stuff like this, and allows to integrate all of the conflicting stories of the past.

Yup.

Given 40K is an inherently mutable canon, told as it is by POV of unreliable narrators, the Votann background is pretty top notch.

The Leagues aren’t the Squats, but the Squats are part of the Leagues, still Kin. Same with Demiurg and the other names they’re known and perhaps deliberately masquerade under.

As for the original Squats? I’ve read their Lore. And there’s really, really not a lot of it. What’s there isn’t poor by any stretch of the imagination, but anyone saying swathes and swathes of former 40K history has just been swept away for Shiny New I’m afraid doesn’t know what they’re talking about. The majority of it comes from Ork & Squat Warlords, a 2nd Ed Epic expansion.

That came around the time 40K was really starting to sort the wheat from the chaffe in its own background. The majority carried over, some as was, some with a spit and polish. But that’s when 40K really became 40K proper. And that was all the background Squats ever really got. Trust me. I’ve every Rogue Trader era book.

 lcmiracle wrote:

 Eilif wrote:
I'm not a fan of the Votaan, but I do appreciate that they went dang near all the way in making them not-Squats.

The look, fluff, etc., that GW has given us is different in so many ways, that it seems fair to keep them almost entirely separate. Humanoids that probably have a similar antecedent, but have evolved in vastly different directions with different results. There really is no need to try and work the Votaan cloning, supercomputers or other nonsense into the Squat history. Votaan is Votaan and Squats is Squats.

So don't bother trying to retcon or reconcile them. Far easier, more coherent, and more sensible to just let them be very distant and very divergent branches of the same very-old tree.

Yeah, if GW can't even bother making the votanns survivors from the old lore than clearly they don't respect their past works as I do. Best for them to never talk about it at all.

The Leagues are the old squats, though. The Old squats have just been retconned to not having been a thing and were always the Leagues.

They even factored in the Tyranids thing by having that just be a rumour that didn't actually happen, because that's pretty much what the real-world explanation was.

Oh yeah, rectonn to not having been a thing is not the same as they are the squats

Old squat lore was that there were multiple leagues, no reason to think votann wasn’t just one of those leagues and the one that survived.

Andykp wrote:
Old squat lore was that there were multiple leagues, no reason to think votann wasn’t just one of those leagues and the one that survived.

Andykp wrote:
Old squat lore was that there were multiple leagues, no reason to think votann wasn’t just one of those leagues and the one that survived.

As you say they have always had Leagues, their current faction name is Leagues of Votann. The important thing here is the plural. The Votann isn't one League, meaning it's the same structure as the old lore. The only difference is they aren't called Squats anymore. But they say in the codex that's what other humans tend to call them.

Not really a "retcon" there so not quite sure what Icmiracle is complaining about.

Is it possible there are many more isolated or "feudal" Kin worlds that might live without cloning, Votann, or other superior technology? Could these types of worlds be the ones that White Dwarf #111 described?

I sure hope so... I featured a fortress with Squats from the old background in my Dark Heresy campaign, but now that the Votann Leagues out I would also like to keep the campaign compatible with the new lore. I'll probably say those classic Squats were a remote offshoot of the Leagues...

GloriousBattle wrote:

Is it possible there are many more isolated or "feudal" Kin worlds that might live without cloning, Votann, or other superior technology? Could these types of worlds be the ones that White Dwarf #111 described?

I sure hope so... I featured a fortress with Squats from the old background in my Dark Heresy campaign, but now that the Votann Leagues out I would also like to keep the campaign compatible with the new lore. I'll probably say those classic Squats were a remote offshoot of the Leagues...

The current lore Necromunda Squats/Leagues are pretty much that, they have been isolated from the larger league bodies for centuries, if not millenia, and at least outwardly represent their own specific culture that is much nearer to old lore squats. They also have Landtrains, more rugged technology, no outwardly apparent AI constructs and all that.

Andykp wrote:
Old squat lore was that there were multiple leagues, no reason to think votann wasn’t just one of those leagues and the one that survived.

They've always had the Votann, Ironkin etc and they're a return of the Squats, they've been called such multiple times by GW. The original Squats lore has been replaced by the Leagues and this is how they've been all along. They aren't ones that "survived" as the Tyranid extinction event for the original depiction never happened.

Tsagualsa wrote:

 lcmiracle wrote:

 Eilif wrote:
I'm not a fan of the Votaan, but I do appreciate that they went dang near all the way in making them not-Squats.

The look, fluff, etc., that GW has given us is different in so many ways, that it seems fair to keep them almost entirely separate. Humanoids that probably have a similar antecedent, but have evolved in vastly different directions with different results. There really is no need to try and work the Votaan cloning, supercomputers or other nonsense into the Squat history. Votaan is Votaan and Squats is Squats.

So don't bother trying to retcon or reconcile them. Far easier, more coherent, and more sensible to just let them be very distant and very divergent branches of the same very-old tree.

Yeah, if GW can't even bother making the votanns survivors from the old lore than clearly they don't respect their past works as I do. Best for them to never talk about it at all.

They do though; the codex has subfactions that are basically all the old stories of what happened to the squats. There's the Necromunda Squats, which are kind of isolated from the larger League society and thus much closer to the old space dwarf fluff, there's background for leagues that were eradicated by the Tyranids and Orks, and there's stories about Leagues that operated with/for the Tau and misrepresented themselves or were misunderstood as the only surviving Squats, which of course wraps up the questions about the Demiurg. It's actually rather well done, at least if measured by the usual GW benchmark for stuff like this, and allows to integrate all of the conflicting stories of the past.

Agreed; GW writers did good with this one. I have really liked the implementation and integration of 40k's communication difficulties.

Indeed. The new Squats are surprisingly well crafted.

In thought experiments in past years over how one could make Squats fit into 40k in a way they never achieved back in Rogue Trader, I always reached the conclusion that they would need to drive hard for asteroid mining, and that it would be wise to make them something more than just Dwarves in space. I did not foresee clunky AI with hilariously slowed down supercomputers and robots, but in hindsight it's such a perfect fit for space Dwarfs in decrepit 40k.

Seeing the previews of the new Leagues of Votann miniatures, art and background, it seemed evident that Games Workshop had reached the same two conclusions as I had, plus their clunky AI concept.

The NASA-punk style spoke volumes, and is such a clever way to tie in visually to a bygone era of optimistic expansion, exploration and innovation. I'm not a fan of the new Squats' bodily proportions (rotund, please) or overall lack of big beards, but otherwise they're such a good fit aesthetically.*

Now, the NASA-punk style of the new Squats did seem to promise that Games Workshop had made them into something else than Dwarrows in space. Lo and behold when I read the codex, and it turned out that GW had in fact written the new Squats as some of the most Dwarven stuff I've ever had the pleasure to read! And it's exquisitely written, to boot.

Part of the polish is to basically have included most of the old Squat lore within the new Squat lore, without throwing much of anything out. The only big deviation is the lack of kings hoarding treasure, which always stuck out like a sore thumb in the original background as straight up fantasy copy-paste. Instead interest groups gather in Hearthspake thing councils, which is much more fitting for science fantasy while still having the appropriate old Nordic feel.

That said, even the Kings with their Hearthguads can easily fit into the new Squats as local subfactions with monarchies advised by Heathspakes. It's such an easy little addition and does not have a jarring effect. There is really nothing substantial from the old Squats missing in the new Squat background. It's all baked into the new codex, and what a blast it is to read.

Cheers

_______________
* Unlike Jervis Johnson, I never thought that the aesthetics of the Rogue Trader Squats were lacking. Their quilted armour, futuristic mining helmets, decorated spherical exo-armour and rowdy Guild bikers made for something memorable, and the Epic 40k range did provide lacking pieces such as big drills and sci-fi Dwarven machinery. The only things sorely missing was some golem-esque large, bulky walker and Slayers with bomb belts.

The Rogue Trader Squat aesthetic is still good, though the few models that were just straight up fantasy Dwarves in space are lacklustre and uninspiring.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bonus input to the strain of discussion regarding Squat creativity:

BassoeG over on Deviantart wrote:

BassoeG wrote:Anyone else getting vibes of Arnold K’s dwarves here?

Which are basically Dwarves that are functional, but lacks any and all creativity. They are thoroughly boring, humour-less and bereft of decorations. And even kidnap outsiders to act as king, since they are dependent on captive creative thinkers to propose solutions to problems.

My response:

I can see why, though 40k Squats do not lack for innate creativity, handcrafted ornamentation and gruff humour. All three of these I consider essential for all Dwarrows regardless of setting.

One just has to understand that they are contained in a stolid, unshakably loyal, clannish, traditional, thorough, pragmatic, perfectionist race that enjoys long, hard toil with excellent results: Fundamental failure to achieve good results despite the best of efforts can indeed break them (see Warhammer fantasy Slayers, where hard failings bring down the mighty Dwarven mind like a giant oak crashing). Think of Dwarves as nigh-on a biological eternal motion machine, well capable of creative problem-solving, and you won't be far off. They are cast in a mould with limits, but excels within the confines of their created being.

Or, to put it like ashur on Chaos Dwarfs Online did:

"This is terrifyingly good! They are like robots without their builders. Now they keep going without asking what is the purpose of what they do. They work to endure and endure to work, without anything to break the cycle.

And yet they brew alcohol, share jokes and enjoy battle songs, so maybe the Ancestors failed to completly dehumanize them. It’s depressing and heartwarming, depending on your point of view."

 Karak Norn Clansman wrote:

Part of the polish is to basically have included most of the old Squat lore within the new Squat lore, without throwing much of anything out. The only big deviation is the lack of kings hoarding treasure, which always stuck out like a sore thumb in the original background as straight up fantasy copy-paste. Instead interest groups gather in Hearthspake thing councils, which is much more fitting for science fantasy while still having the appropriate old Nordic feel.

That said, even the Kings with their Hearthguads can easily fit into the new Squats as local subfactions with monarchies advised by Heathspakes. It's such an easy little addition and does not have a jarring effect. There is really nothing substantial from the old Squats missing in the new Squat background. It's all baked into the new codex, and what a blast it is to read.

Cheers

_______________
* Unlike Jervis Johnson, I never thought that the aesthetics of the Rogue Trader Squats were lacking. Their quilted armour, futuristic mining helmets, decorated spherical exo-armour and rowdy Guild bikers made for something memorable, and the Epic 40k range did provide lacking pieces such as big drills and sci-fi Dwarven machinery. The only things sorely missing was some golem-esque large, bulky walker and Slayers with bomb belts.

The Rogue Trader Squat aesthetic is still good, though the few models that were just straight up fantasy Dwarves in space are lacklustre and uninspiring.

I think there's ample space to introduce characters that fit the 'King of Avarice / Miser King'-mould in all but name once they get to do some LoV novels or stories that feature them in a major way - as of now, most space was -quite reasonably- devoted to characterizing the faction, i guess they get to characterizing actual characters on the next round.

That being said, Hearthguard or something like that can be slotted in the new background quite seamlessly, they just need to guard the Votann themselves, not some sort of individual squat. Some sort of analogue to the relationship between the Emperor and Custodians comes to mind quite naturally, with the Hearthguard acting as bodyguard to the Votann, but also going on special missions or acting as overseers / secret police to ensure compliance from now to then.

In my opinion, the most interesting thing on the tabletop and in the background would be a closer look on the Ironkin, including aforementioned battelforms like the 'Golem' and such, and a deeper exploration of the cultural and material bonds between the Squats and their Votann 'masters' - are there Squat Ancestor- or Death cults? If the Votann learns from reabsorbing dead Squats and Ironkin, recovering the Dead and Relics would be quite valuable for tactical and informational/scientific reason, so maybe there are dedicated sects or forces that strive for that? And so on...

On how well the League Lore has been added?

At first, Tau felt like a new badge on an old camping blanket. Stitched on, adding to its richness, but not necessarily an integral part.

Leagues however are a hole in that blanket not fixed with a patch, but by new weaving. To the trained eye you can tell it’s new. But for all intents and purposes, the blanket now feels whole, like the new weave has always been part of it.

We have a decent narrative reason for why we’ve not seen them before (they’re in the deep core, where no-one else goes - or at least comes back from).

They’ve taken on various guises to obscure their origin and number. Hence Demiurg are Kin. This allowed them to trade with the Tau without risking Imperial Ire. But they’re also almost, depending how you read the background, a sub-culture within the wider whole.

The Squats of old were a limited sect who ran into the nascent Imperium, and sort-of signed up. Some of those took work on Necromunda, found it to their liking (plenty to mine, mostly left alone) and over time became their own distinct subculture.

As retcons go, this one is pretty much seem less.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It even leaves room for renegade factions of Kin. Not in a Chaos way. More a rejection of Votann Society way. And that could be dropped in at any point in the future.

And as this thread goes to show? There’s plenty of tragedy involved. Not doom and gloom as 40K typically knows it, where everyone is just staving off death. But an altogether more subtle tragedy, that their success came at a price they’re utterly unable to acknowledge, the cost of truly free will. Their every decision making process is limited because they’re not far off Fleshy Automata. Designed and customised to be Good At This Thing With No Particular Desire Not To Do This Thing Because We Ensured They Want To Do This Thing.

Stepford Wives. They’re bloody 40K Stepford Wives via Midwich Cuckoos. That’s what they are.

Took me long enough to get a pop culture comparison 😂😂

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On how well the League Lore has been added?

The Squats of old were a limited sect who ran into the nascent Imperium, and sort-of signed up.

This part doesn't actually seem to be the case though, there isn't anything in the new lore about the classic squats as they were before. The classic Squats aren't some specific group who were like that, they've just been outright retconned.

The closest thing we have is Grendl Grendlsen, but he's implied to just be a League mercenary, and there's artwork of League Kin wearing similar gear to him too.

Hardly. A lot of the Rogue Trader Squat background has been woven into the new codex, and remains implied (including in the RT style Squat artwork in question). The Mad Doc is on point.

We are even told of Squats who dwell in Imperial space, in passing. It doesn't take much imagination to read the implication that the old Squats as a limited phenomenon are alive and kicking much as described in Rogue Trader. Especially given the glimpse we are given of Ironhead Squats on Necromunda. But the Leagues of Votann codex takes a more zoomed-out view, focusing on the independent Kin in the core with some teasing glances on Demiurg and Squats in Imperial space, as well as roaming mercenaries and adventurers.

Compare the below background on Squat society to the new background. It's been tweaked and reworked and expanded for better effect, but it's not an outright retcon, aside from the monarchical-aristocratic elite that just screamed fantasy Dwarfs; the Hearthspake just works better for science fantasy. A lot more of the better old background has been retained than one could have reasonably assumed would be the case:



Furthermore, I propose that the following Rogue Trader piece of background is still relevant for the limited Squat homeworlds discovered by the Imperium. And I propose that the part on Squats breeding true is to be taken as still-relevant proof for Kin everywhere breeding naturally, although the vast majority come from cloneskeins:



Cloneskeins possibly not even being known by the Imperium is nothing strange: Kin has the same Dwarven secrecy that so characterized Tolkien's Dwarves.

Kin breeding naturally may apply to the "base model" with more extreme variants still requiring a Votann's intervention to produce. That could be perhaps why the Imperium finds "abhuman" Squats rather than Kin that are so extreme as to be misclassified as aliens (and hence for extermination by the Imperium). So the Kin diaspora populations without access to Votann to continue to produce the more specialized cloneskeins eventually ends up with "just" the base model which are the Squats..

 Karak Norn Clansman wrote:
Hardly. A lot of the Rogue Trader Squat background has been woven into the new codex, and remains implied (including in the RT style Squat artwork in question). The Mad Doc is on point.

We are even told of Squats who dwell in Imperial space, in passing. It doesn't take much imagination to read the implication that the old Squats as a limited phenomenon are alive and kicking much as described in Rogue Trader. Especially given the glimpse we are given of Ironhead Squats on Necromunda. But the Leagues of Votann codex takes a more zoomed-out view, focusing on the independent Kin in the core with some teasing glances on Demiurg and Squats in Imperial space, as well as roaming mercenaries and adventurers.

Compare the below background on Squat society to the new background. It's been tweaked and reworked and expanded for better effect, but it's not an outright retcon, aside from the monarchical-aristocratic elite that just screamed fantasy Dwarfs; the Hearthspake just works better for science fantasy. A lot more of the better old background has been retained than one could have reasonably assumed would be the case:

What I meant is that the Leagues are a direct replacement for the original squats. The Leagues incorporate some of the Old Squat lore and have lots of similarities because they are meant to be them, but they are not stated to be/have been two distinct societies or something like that, the Leagues have just taken their place as if that original depiction was really meant to be how they are now instead - a retcon. Kin may have settled elsewhere or operated as mercenaries for the Imperium, but the idea of the original squats being some specific league/subset of the Votann or how they were historically or something like that isn't actually said to be the case anywhere in the new lore. There isn't "The Leagues" of now and "The Squat Empire" of classic lore as two noticeably distinct groups that existed at some point, there's just the Leagues.

The closest thing we have to them being two separate things is the codex art of the guys in classic style uniforms but based on Grendl that's just League Mercenary gear, not something actually from some sort of group that lines up with that classic squat lore rather than Votann lore.

Has there been any mention of the Kin in other recent publications? Like the Guard, World eaters dex or the Arks of Omen books?

I’m part way through AoO Angron, and no mention of Kin thus far. But that’s a particularly Imperial centric volume.

Haven’t gotten my mitts on AoO Abaddon yet.

Further thought on Kin, and their resistance to Chaos.

Whilst one might put it down to their “hardened souls”? I think that’s only a partial answer.

See, Chaos needs something to get its hooks into. Usually a desire of some kind, which they can often quite gently coax from an interest, to a desire, to utter single minded obsession.

Different things for different Gods of course. Tzeentch likes his revolutionaries. Nurgle listens to the pleas of the suffering and delivers respite. Khorne admires valour and skill at arms. Slaanesh just like…..excess.

Yet they have pretty much no hold over Orks. Not only do Orks have their own Gods? But an unshakeable self belief. They’re Orky. Orks is da best. And if you want to be da best Ork, you just got to keep clobberin’ your way up the pile. If you get clobbered, don’t really matter. You’re either ded, or survive and can always come back and try again later.

Kin, like Orks, but perhaps not quite as extreme, have Surety Of Purpose.

Their society only demands you pull your weight. Your birth wasn’t exactly pre-ordained, but your aptitudes were, to a certain extent.

There is a place for you. Your are welcome. You too are an essential, irreplaceable, part of the whole. Everyone is pulling in the same direction as you.

Dare I even suggest they’re a bit Socialist? It’s not just the workers and the drudges that have rations when times are tough. Everyone has rations. Your privations are everyone’s privations. The risks and rewards are shared. Perhaps not entirely equally (hence socialist, not communist. There is a difference!), but you still get what you need to survive and continually contribute your share.

And like Ork society? That status quo seems to be wholeheartedly embraced by all Kin.

Nobody is left behind. Their society is pretty egalitarian. Everyone’s abilities are valued, and a use found for them. Yes some Kin will know poverty - but it’s not as a result of a given class or caste unfairly hoarding the fruits of collective labours. If you’re in dire straits, so is the rest of your Kin. Perhaps to somewhat differing levels, but the peril is shared enough that everyone pulls in the same direction to lift everyone out of it.

That…doesn’t leave a lot of room for Chaos to hook its claws into?

Aaaah! Aaaaaaaah! AAAAAAAAAAARRRRGGHHH!

I’ve been all thick! I’ve failed to spot a certain trail of breadcrumbs! Because it is an old trail. One barely remembered.

See, in Necromunda, the Spyrers had battle rigs. Orrus, Malcadon, Yeld and Jakarta. Debuted in Outlanders.

A few years later, the Tau debuted. And tantalisingly? The names of the Spyrer rigs seemed to match up. Strongly suggesting the Tau were an older force than believed, and at least traded with Necromunda.

Except….that thread was left flapping in the wind.

Fast forward a good couple of decades? And the Votann. Who are confirmed to have traded at least Ion tech with the Tau….

And the (slow, my slow) realisation that, perhaps, the Spyrers aren’t trading with the Tau at all. And never have. But it’s been the Votann all along. And from such trades with earlier Tau, Votanni terms for such rigs entered the Tau vocabulary…..

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Aaaah! Aaaaaaaah! AAAAAAAAAAARRRRGGHHH!

I’ve been all thick! I’ve failed to spot a certain trail of breadcrumbs! Because it is an old trail. One barely remembered.

See, in Necromunda, the Spyrers had battle rigs. Orrus, Malcadon, Yeld and Jakarta. Debuted in Outlanders.

A few years later, the Tau debuted. And tantalisingly? The names of the Spyrer rigs seemed to match up. Strongly suggesting the Tau were an older force than believed, and at least traded with Necromunda.

Except….that thread was left flapping in the wind.

Fast forward a good couple of decades? And the Votann. Who are confirmed to have traded at least Ion tech with the Tau….

And the (slow, my slow) realisation that, perhaps, the Spyrers aren’t trading with the Tau at all. And never have. But it’s been the Votann all along. And from such trades with earlier Tau, Votanni terms for such rigs entered the Tau vocabulary…..

Good spot. To add to that conjecture, the spyrer suits incorporate several things, mostly weapons, which are absent from the wider Tau armory, but common in the Votann forces: the bolt launchers in the Orrus' fists, laser weaponry of the Yeld, and various high-efficiency close combat weapons. All of these make much more sense as an offshoot of the Votann's STC technology.

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Aaaah! Aaaaaaaah! AAAAAAAAAAARRRRGGHHH!

I’ve been all thick! I’ve failed to spot a certain trail of breadcrumbs! Because it is an old trail. One barely remembered.

See, in Necromunda, the Spyrers had battle rigs. Orrus, Malcadon, Yeld and Jakarta. Debuted in Outlanders.

A few years later, the Tau debuted. And tantalisingly? The names of the Spyrer rigs seemed to match up. Strongly suggesting the Tau were an older force than believed, and at least traded with Necromunda.

Except….that thread was left flapping in the wind.

Fast forward a good couple of decades? And the Votann. Who are confirmed to have traded at least Ion tech with the Tau….

And the (slow, my slow) realisation that, perhaps, the Spyrers aren’t trading with the Tau at all. And never have. But it’s been the Votann all along. And from such trades with earlier Tau, Votanni terms for such rigs entered the Tau vocabulary…..

Good spot. To add to that conjecture, the spyrer suits incorporate several things, mostly weapons, which are absent from the wider Tau armory, but common in the Votann forces: the bolt launchers in the Orrus' fists, laser weaponry of the Yeld, and various high-efficiency close combat weapons. All of these make much more sense as an offshoot of the Votann's STC technology.

Or the Tau terms got adopted as the names. Necromunda is like half a galaxy away from the Tau. There could be lots of middlemen intermediaries and as suggested, it could be the Kin trading these rigs around, possibly under the guise of other names/identities like the Demiurg.

i'm not seeing the claimed Tau connections at all in the Spryer's gear? the Tau don't use the term 'rig' or names like Orrus, Jakara, etc..

and given the hunter rigs have heavy close combat focus, using battlefits, blades, short range weapons, etc.. they're very much the opposite of tau combat technology styles. nor did the old minis carry any Tau stylings. (if anything, they're closer to imperialized Eldar visuals,, especially the older rogue trader edition eldar gear. (also their fighting style.. malcadons like warp spiders, Yeld like swooping hawks, Jakara like stirking scoprions, etc)

It was in their original Codex, which featured sample words, which bore resemblance to the Spyrer rig names. Following image must be from a more recent one though, due to Vespid and T’au



That was the extent of it, until now.

Good catch Mad Doc! Yes, this is an excellent explanation.

For those like me who were previously unaware of how the names of the Spyrer rigs seemed to match up with certain words in the Tau language, see the following 3rd edition background:

Mal'caor - Spider (Malcadon)
Or'es - Powerful (Orrus)
Y'eldi - Air caste name for a particularly gifted pilot (literally "winged one")



Now Dwarf trademarks!

Always remember that old leads are relevant in Warhammer 40'000. Old does not equal defunct.

It would seem more likely to me that the T'au words were part of their lexicon before they encountered the Demiurge.

We know that Spyrer tech isn't unique to Necromunda, and has been linked to archaeotech and jokaero previously, so it's not like the Squats are the only possible source.

Plus, thge T'au seemingly not using any of the Spyrer-related technologies remains a problem if they had close contact with them via the Demiurge.

Unless they simply weren’t interested in those items.

The Spyrer suits are seemingly fairly unique tech. They have all sorts of trinkets, geegaws and abilities, but the wearer has to earn access to them. Kind of like Spidey’s Stark Suit from Homecoming.

You are right my observation isn’t automatically “therefore Votann” though. I’d need to see more of their own language.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
It would seem more likely to me that the T'au words were part of their lexicon before they encountered the Demiurge.

We know that Spyrer tech isn't unique to Necromunda, and has been linked to archaeotech and jokaero previously, so it's not like the Squats are the only possible source.

Plus, thge T'au seemingly not using any of the Spyrer-related technologies remains a problem if they had close contact with them via the Demiurge.

Or maybe the Tau saw and gave names to the tech they saw at the Demiurg flying emporium but didn't buy.

"We'll pass on those suits. We got our own, but we'll buy those ion cannons, including the supersized version!"

Maybe the Demiurg hang around Tau space because there is an extended service warranty

The Demiurg connection is the best explanation as of now for those particular Tau words. The Tau may also have bought some technology related to the specific Spyrer rigs in question to try out, to much publicity within their society. These not leading anywhere permanent in practice still left an imprint in the language.

Bonus quote from ashur on Chaos Dwarfs Online:

ashur wrote:This is terrifyingly good! They are like robots without their builders. Now they keep going without asking what is the purpose of what they do. They work to endure and endure to work, without anything to break the cycle.

And yet they brew alcohol, share jokes and enjoy battle songs, so maybe the Ancestors failed to completly dehumanize them. It’s depressing and heartwarming, depending on your point of view.

Two pictures of interest to Kin background, and of interest as aesthetic inspiration.

One pleasant surprise in the Leagues of Votann vehicle kits is the consistent stretched hexagonal patterning on the inside of armour panels and doors. Barely any of it is visible once the model is assembled. Thus a nice touch playing up the Squats' uncut roots back to the Dark Age of Technology, in contrast to the looks of Age of Imperium technology:



And speaking of a theme of space exploration and resource extraction, this Starcraft-themed Leagues of Votann army display board is simply gorgeous.



I am surprised how well an aesthetic take not too dissimilar to Starcraft Terrans works for Squats. Yes, there should be more Dwarf details and especially more rotund physique and enormous beards. But the basic idea works a lot better in practice than it would have seen if it was proposed in text only.

And best of all, GW grasped the opportunity to tie a piece of the 40k setting back in with humanity's Dark Age of Technology, with both hands. Surprisingly able hands. Fits excellently.

Future miniature releases and background snippets would do well to explore mining drills, artillery and some form of hefty Squat walker or robot.

On the quote for Ashur?

I’d argue they were just dehumanised enough.

Whilst free will has been eroded, the capacity for leaps of logic and innovation haven’t. I can’t see that as accidental, otherwise why not just send automata out there?

No. Some element of humanity was still required. Automata May meet a problem, and simply go around it, choosing a different vein to mine. They make lack the insight to see opportunity, whereas us humans are good at turning adversity into opportunity,

The family bond, ability to create art etc are also buried deep in human nature. Started with handprints, developed into cave art. Cave art became more sophisticated, going from What Was Done to How To Do It. Formal writing then followed in due course.

That capacity for expression, whether purely informational or more artsy is useful. We don’t just communicate, we’re obsessed with it.

Oral story telling was an early, if inherently unreliable, way of preserving history.

The Kin still have need of that. And if you did want to excise that, for whatever reason? Who knows what else you might be removing at the same time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for the family focus? I saw a documentary a while back, which sadly I’ve never been able to track down again. Apologies in advance if this is now disproven, or was always pseudoscience.

But the argument presented was the invention of the net, lead to the existence of grandparents - and it was at that point we really started to get good as a species.

Super short form? Nets improved hunting. Even folk with lesser stamina could help, simply holding the net whilst prey was flushed out and into the net. Once entangled, literally Easy Meat.

Less calories spent hunting, and better results meant more food to go round. This reduced internal competition for calories. Folk could live longer, as you’d no longer have scraps if you couldn’t hunt. Even if you couldn’t hold the net, there was still an excess of food by comparison.

So those least able stayed home to raise the young - and crucially, pass on their lifetime experience at an earlier stage of the young person’s lives. No more learning on the job. Grandad was around to teach you.

Heck, the net even made hunting less perilous, so fewer people suffered goring, impalement and death etc, again ensuring skills survived down through the generations.

That’s now super hard wired into us, because (again provided this isn’t pseudoscientific drivel, I apologise unreservedly if it is) it was a Successful Tactic,

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On the quote for Ashur?

I’d argue they were just dehumanised enough.

Whilst free will has been eroded, the capacity for leaps of logic and innovation haven’t. I can’t see that as accidental, otherwise why not just send automata out there?

No. Some element of humanity was still required. Automata May meet a problem, and simply go around it, choosing a different vein to mine. They make lack the insight to see opportunity, whereas us humans are good at turning adversity into opportunity,

Of course, you need your biological Von Neumann miners to be able to handle unpredictable and unforeseen situations and be able to think their way to engineering a solution, not merely repeat by rote what is known (that's the Mechanicus). However the blocking of free will is more subtle than being just mindlessly robotic. It means they won't think along certain lines of thought, and if such ideas were brought to their attention they would shrug and dismiss them as irrelevant. I see it as similar to the Custodes and how they also supposedly lack free will to truly disagree with the Emperor though they retain enough flexibility of mind to problem solve and defeat new threats. They might be able to theoretically consider the idea of not doing something the Emperor's way, maybe even argue it so as to be a Devil's advocate advisor to the Emperor, but ultimately if the Emperor decided on a course of action, the Custodes would fall into line and rationalize away or submerge their objections.

Yeah.

The biggest hook for me when it comes to Kin is they don’t have a choice in enjoying what they do. And whilst they’re certainly plenty intelligent enough for that to be explained to them? That same tinkering doesn’t so much result in “they don’t care”, so much as “they can’t care”.

I genuinely cannot explain how personally horrifying that is.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Yeah.

The biggest hook for me when it comes to Kin is they don’t have a choice in enjoying what they do. And whilst they’re certainly plenty intelligent enough for that to be explained to them? That same tinkering doesn’t so much result in “they don’t care”, so much as “they can’t care”.

I genuinely cannot explain how personally horrifying that is.

Reading this reminded me of John Spartan (Sylvester Stallone) in Demolition Man having an irresistible urge to knit after "Behavioural Engineering" while in cryogenic suspension.

gravitywell wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Yeah.

The biggest hook for me when it comes to Kin is they don’t have a choice in enjoying what they do. And whilst they’re certainly plenty intelligent enough for that to be explained to them? That same tinkering doesn’t so much result in “they don’t care”, so much as “they can’t care”.

I genuinely cannot explain how personally horrifying that is.

Reading this reminded me of John Spartan (Sylvester Stallone) in Demolition Man having an irresistible urge to knit after "Behavioural Engineering" while in cryogenic suspension.

The villain from that same movie, Simon Phoenix, was unable to kill Dr. Cocteau because of an implanted behavioral block while Phoenix was in cryo-suspension. Of course the gaping loophole in the movie was he just got one of his gang members (who did not have such an implanted block) to do it.