Looks to be a slightly bigger scale than Legion? And smaller skirmish sized warbands. Release of core set is set for June 2023. Hopefully it is hard plastic...
And can anyone more tech savvy than me embed the trailer video?
I know that there are people who are mad and automatically think this is the end of Legion and even the other FFG Star Wars games. I don't think that's what this means but I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case down the line.
All that said, I'm HYPED for this game and it's right in my wheelhouse! I can run full Mandos!
Miss opportunity to make models that could've worked in both systems. That would've been great brand/design synergy... but now we're getting 40mm hero-scale of characters Legion fans have sometimes been begging for, for years.
Also... tactical rocks... yep this is the Crisis Protocol team alright. :-p
AMG has only worked with licensed IP thus far. While they could make their own IP, that would require extra support and take away from development of the games themselves.
Also, this will be the first time that AMG develops a SW game from the ground up. So far they've only maintained SW games they got from FFG.
Automatically Appended Next Post: If the Core Set offers the same value as the MCP one and the game sounds fun I'll check it out.
Excellent. Another Star Wars game in another scale by the very same company barely keeping up with what it already offers, and has maintained that by doing no new releases for at least one other Star Wars game.
Need to see the rules and how they incorporate grunt style characters. Certainly has potential, but not really interested in a MCP reskin. There's definitely a gap in the Legion experience regarding its heroes for this game to fill, but I'm not a huge fan of the extended prequel cast for this to be a huge draw over Legion unless they really capture something with the characters.
There will be two camps at play here, thouse who has never collected legion, and thouse who do.
The first camp will moust likely jump both feet into it if the reviews are good, The second camp will not as they are bummed that it is not an expansion to Legion.
If it do not go above 7 models for a max sized game, it can have a place, but if it goes above 7 models then there is no reason for it to exist as we allready have 500p rule booklet for Legion that is ment for smaller games.
I do feel like this highlights Legion's biggest drawback, which is just the limited ability to make iconic characters for the game. They demand so much FFG card spam and fight for the extremely limited tactics card slots that its just been a slog getting to even obvious stuff like Ahsoka let along things like the crew of the Ghost. The bigger problem is even when they get around to releasing some of the secondary characters, its just really really hard to make room for them in armies.
What I'd personally love is more of a Legion 2.0 that reworked the way its heroes are implemented but stayed at a scale that still allowed for limited vehicles. This is definitely not that, but might be more of what I want if the grunts are incorporated well.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Excellent. Another Star Wars game in another scale by the very same company barely keeping up with what it already offers, and has maintained that by doing no new releases for at least one other Star Wars game.
This is sadly how capitalisms works. Main office says jump and the devs say Yes Ma'am and jump. No way that the dev team wanted this, and it's only going to bring in yet more work for a small team that is already overworked and likely underpaid for what they do.
FrozenDwarf wrote: There will be two camps at play here, thouse who has never collected legion, and thouse who do.
The first camp will moust likely jump both feet into it if the reviews are good, The second camp will not as they are bummed that it is not an expansion to Legion.
If it do not go above 7 models for a max sized game, it can have a place, but if it goes above 7 models then there is no reason for it to exist as we allready have 500p rule booklet for Legion that is ment for smaller games.
So the cycle continues, after this happened with IA players when Legion came out...
LunarSol wrote: I do feel like this highlights Legion's biggest drawback, which is just the limited ability to make iconic characters for the game. They demand so much FFG card spam and fight for the extremely limited tactics card slots that its just been a slog getting to even obvious stuff like Ahsoka let along things like the crew of the Ghost. The bigger problem is even when they get around to releasing some of the secondary characters, its just really really hard to make room for them in armies.
What I'd personally love is more of a Legion 2.0 that reworked the way its heroes are implemented but stayed at a scale that still allowed for limited vehicles. This is definitely not that, but might be more of what I want if the grunts are incorporated well.
They really don't though. I just do not buy this idea that there is limited play space in the game. Just because a game has powerful spamable cards, doesn't mean we as players must just give in and spam them. My group and I have been playing legion for months now, since late june. All of our lists have been quite diverese with lots of models that the "community" decries as "unplayable" yet here we are playing them, winning and losing games, seeing fun and exciting stuff happen on the table top.
Hopefully excited? If that can be the description, THAT is a good thing.
Atomic Mass hit it out of the park with Marvel.
I think it's a very good batch of figures, albeit- a little large, but I'm not going to complain about something that petty. The figures are a great touch in their modeling aspect alone. I had a great time painting up a few of them, and still have Spidey and Cap on the painting Que.
FFG gave me a bad taste in my mouth with their Imperial Assault game, and then when I saw them try to shadow insert the figures into Legion, I was just not even going to take them serious as a choice of a game.
In the new game, the only thing I can honestly ask is to ask the designers to actually make the figures so you don't have to put them together with a PhD, and that you don't use that Mongoose level trash plastic.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Excellent. Another Star Wars game in another scale by the very same company barely keeping up with what it already offers, and has maintained that by doing no new releases for at least one other Star Wars game.
This is sadly how capitalisms works. Main office says jump and the devs say Yes Ma'am and jump. No way that the dev team wanted this, and it's only going to bring in yet more work for a small team that is already overworked and likely underpaid for what they do.
TBF it's the opposite in this case. The developers of the FFG Star Wars games were all let go when AMG took over (1 moved over then went soon after). The AMG guys developed MCP and this is just a reskin of "their" game. AMG don't particularly care about the FFG games and clearly their passion is for "their" games instead.
LunarSol wrote: I do feel like this highlights Legion's biggest drawback, which is just the limited ability to make iconic characters for the game. They demand so much FFG card spam and fight for the extremely limited tactics card slots that its just been a slog getting to even obvious stuff like Ahsoka let along things like the crew of the Ghost. The bigger problem is even when they get around to releasing some of the secondary characters, its just really really hard to make room for them in armies.
What I'd personally love is more of a Legion 2.0 that reworked the way its heroes are implemented but stayed at a scale that still allowed for limited vehicles. This is definitely not that, but might be more of what I want if the grunts are incorporated well.
They really don't though. I just do not buy this idea that there is limited play space in the game. Just because a game has powerful spamable cards, doesn't mean we as players must just give in and spam them. My group and I have been playing legion for months now, since late june. All of our lists have been quite diverese with lots of models that the "community" decries as "unplayable" yet here we are playing them, winning and losing games, seeing fun and exciting stuff happen on the table top.
Well, I wouldn't call the tactics cards spammable. Quite the opposite really. The problem I have is that for the most part the characters kind of lack.... character on their own. A ton of the more character rich parts of the game are regulated to the tactics cards and even if the game's FOC didn't heavily restrict how many you could take in the first place, I find character heavy lists regulate too many of them to expensive move and roll dice pieces. It's not a community problem; the game is just designed largely around highlighting 1-2 hero characters. Like I said, I'd rather they make some changes to Legion to accommodate more heroes as an option. I don't think we need a whole new game to make it happen, but I can definitely see where they'd benefit from a system that accommodated more big name releases rather than needing to find a way to make Rebels look like they have an army on par with the other 3.
It's a chance for AMG to make more versions of their game, which makes more sense for them.
I think not retooling X-Wing and Legion and coming out with new additions for both of them is just leaving money on the table though. Both could gain a lot from a top-down redo at this point, or at least within a couple years.
The problem with X-Wing remains that they've already sold people all the ships they want. No matter what changes they make to the game, there's just not physical product left to sell for it.
Scale change completely kills it for me, no way in hell I'm building another set of Star Wars terrain. This could have been so good, Legion for mass combat and Shatterpoint for character heavy small skirmish, I would have been all over this.
Instead they'll get nothing from me. I can't imagine I'm the only one. Utterly flabbergasted at this decision, it's everything I want but in a size I'll never accept
Looks like Star Wars: shattered Lightsabers.
Or will the figures be made of rubber? Some of them look very delicate, more suited to display models, then gaming pieces...
Imperial assault, Legion, now this. All with a scale increase. Feels like GW.
I may wait for the next game along from them, when the scale increases to action figure size. I have plenty of those from when myself and my lad were younger.
It is both a force ability and the name of the first novel in the Clone Wars novel series. So given the time frame of the setting and probability of it being am in game force power it is not too much of a stretch.
I only picked up the original trilogy, Mandalorian and crime syndicate for Legions so happy to pick this up for prequel era gaming. I think this will fit the clone wars style much better than Legion.
Put me in the not impressed camp. If this had been skirmish at the same model scale as legion I'd have been down but the scale change really just comes off as an attempt to get people to rebuy the same characters again.
Also it proves that amg can't move away from one vision of game style, I suppose to be fair to them they had no choice in getting the other games thrust on them but they haven't exactly covered themselves in glory in how they have handled them.
Easy E wrote: Might as well just pull out my action figures and use those for a game.....
You already can. The old WotC blind packed Star Wars CMG had double sided maps in the starters that was scaled specifically to use the 3.5 inch figures on the reverse side.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Miss opportunity to make models that could've worked in both systems.
Deliberately avoid making models cross compatible to avoid cannibalism of sales you mean?
Exactly. It's just common sense from a business standpoint, and the larger models give people a different hobby experience especially if they passed on Legion.
I absolutely love Legion, but I think I am going to pass on this one and put what I would have spent towards the Battletech Kickstarter launching darn near the same day at Adepticon.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Miss opportunity to make models that could've worked in both systems.
Deliberately avoid making models cross compatible to avoid cannibalism of sales you mean?
Exactly. It's just common sense from a business standpoint, and the larger models give people a different hobby experience especially if they passed on Legion.
You wot? All other game makers do skirmish variants of their games as gateway 'drug' of sorts, when you already have a squad or two it's much easier to build bigger army or grab a hero or two you need for small scale battle. It's not hard concept, and ruining gateway potential of the game and splitting your customer base into smaller communities that can't reach mass effect is frakking dumb. Cannibalism? What? If anything, they are cannibalizing sales by ensuring customers don't keep spending to be able to play both systems but stay with one and to much smaller degree at that...
The Prequels are bad movies but they are saturated by an iconic array of licensing assets, which after all was the main point of making them. In this sense, and this sense alone, the PT may one day even outshine the OT. Launching Shatterpoint with Clone Wars content was a great choice. It’s an era of Star Wars defined by superheroic characters constantly engaged in melodramatic duels against the backdrop of a massive galactic war. It’s absolutely perfect for a revised version of Crisis Protocol. And although I really like the mechanics/gameplay of MCP, I’m just not into Marvel that much.
I’m looking forward to seeing whether AMD will support Shatterpoint with plastic terrain like they have MCP.
My only concern so far is digital sculptors overindulging on the scenic bases. For example, Grievous really does not need to be perched atop that huge rock. All these Pepsi and Coke Mandalorians flying around on columns of jetpack exhaust make me wonder whether there will even be any cover mechanic.
Additional rant: Looks VERY silly to complain about “making us buy the same characters again!” when the topic is Star Wars of all things. Mate, we’ve been buying the same characters non-stop for decades and decades. Most relevant to this context is the exact same complaints lodged when FFG announced Legion, that time regarding Imperial Assault. Once again, we’re talking about a different game, with its own scale and basing convention, with brand new sculpts. Sorry if you had already bought some Star Wars Lego , I guess?
This might appeal to me, I prefer skirmish/low model count games and SW legion doesn't really fit into that camp. I was quite happy with the minis and terrain from MCP as well and hopefully these are around the same quality.
Looks like it could be interesting. Legion never really appealed to me, and I had no interest in it. But depending on how the system feels, this might draw me in.
I’m looking forward to seeing whether AMD will support Shatterpoint with plastic terrain like they have MCP.
They mention terrain in the AMG Transmission announcement video on twitch. You can see the models on some in the background but don’t get a close up however appears to be the modular Necromunda style terrain from the launch trailer. Some comes in the starter.
The scale change seems dubious from a scenery perspective. If they still work with existing terrain I think I'll give it a shot but if I have to collect an entire new set of terrain for this game alone that would be bad. Inquisitor was amazing but nobody had terrain in that large scale so everyone just used regular scale figures. Inquisitor figures didn't sell and the game tanked.
I am rather excited for this despite owning Legion beforehand.
What I am immediately drawn to is that "gang members"(clone troopers, Guards) seem to be a core feature that fight along the heroes. It reminds of the Batman Miniature game.
Garfield666 wrote: Looks like Star Wars: shattered Lightsabers.
Or will the figures be made of rubber? Some of them look very delicate, more suited to display models, then gaming pieces...
It's HIPS plastic and larger scale than Legion (which doesn't really have any issue with their lightsabers' robustness anyway) so shouldn't be a problem unless you drop them from a fair height or don't take the basic modicum of care handling them. I do think they've certainly accentuated the 'stretched' look of proportions by going with a Clone Wars style aesthetic so can see where you're coming from in terms of them looking more delicate than they probably will be in practice.
I have two starter boxes and two painted armies for Legion but I haven't been able to get myself excited to play it. Too fiddly. Too many counters. Just doesn't feel quite right for some reason.
I also own Marvel Crisis Protocol and while I believe it's a good rules set it also doesn't hook me as it's a little abstract. It's like a boardgame masquerading as a miniatures game. And yet, I still buy and paint the minis. Why? Because they're really nice models and that's a fun scale for modeling.
So, this game. My first thought was that it was just going to be reskinned MCP - which is a bit of a turnoff. But one of the things mentioned in the announcement video was a focus on terrain. Not much more was mentioned but that it was mentioned at all really tells me that this will be something different from MCP - at least in that respect. So I'm cautiously optimistic. Worst case? They'll be making Star Wars minis in a fun scale to paint that I will really enjoy painting.
I'd definitely agree that selling people the same models at two different scales cannibalizes your own sales, and I'd definitely agree that it causes a significant chunk of your core potential audience to just go "NOPE!" to your game, which also costs you significant sales.
It's an issue that goes very much by feel, if I own a big collection of 32mm models for a certain IP, would I refuse to build a collection of 10mm models for a game in the same IP? No, I would be fine owning both. But if I had a collection of Age of Sail ships at 1/1200, and then the same company tried to sell me the exact same ships at 1/1000? I'd never get onboard.
But I noticed MCP had tons of hype when it came out, yet started pretty slow. It required a lot of building miniatures, it was expensive, it didn't blow the door off the hinges at all in terms of sales. But AMG just had a persistent predation approach of "here's another cool model, here's another cool model, here's another cool model," until they just wore the market down and a decent number of people were buying their stuff. Maybe they can do that here.
I may be interested is some of the figures just to build, but I don't think there is anyone in my extended play group that is ready for another SW miniature game.
I do enjoy the CP miniatures, and despite there not being a play group for them locally, I have a large number of them assembled and painted. Perhaps the same will be true with this one.
As long as they don't interpret their own announcement creatively...
... a new miniatures skirmish game that will join its existing catalog of Star Wars miniature games.
... and do something stupid like dropping Legion, I don't mind that Shatterpoint exists. I can see why they'd want to make their own Star Wars game (hookers and blackjack), so it's not terribly surprising that the models look like they have the same scale and style of bases as Crisis Protocol. They do go surprisingly easy on tactical rocks, but when they're there, boy are they there.
Personally I prefer Legion for being a small army game. I like a game that's about troops more than heroes, and has the side effect of being more "your dudes" friendly. On the other hand, I do appreciate that we're seeing Ahsoka, Luminara, Barriss, Asajj and Bo-Katan right from the start. It's been mentioned in the thread already, but FFG sure took their time adding characters to the lineup. Even if I prefer to play with my own characters, Star Wars revolves so heavily around its heroes that it's just silly not to get them by the truckload.
I do like that there still is a trooper component in the game. I suppose it doesn't make sense in Crisis Protocol since superheroes are effectively bulletproof, but it's good to see AMG acknowledge that a couple of guys with blasters can shoot up a Jedi. At least from the looks of it. We'll see what the rules have to say about trooper role.
I'm not excited for the game, but I might buy into it to paint the off model just like I did with Crisis Protocol. Remains to be seen, really, since I'm getting my Star Wars fix just fine with Legion models, and right now rather than next summer.
Focus on terrain while also being in a scale that nobody really makes terrain for is an odd one, unless they plan to make their own sets, which would be crazy given all the legion imperial bunkers gathering dust on store shelves around the world.
Having only just got the shadow collective stuff for Legion it's hard to be too upset by this as a Legion player, but it's not for me.
Focus on terrain while also being in a scale that nobody really makes terrain for is an odd one, unless they plan to make their own sets, which would be crazy given all the legion imperial bunkers gathering dust on store shelves around the world.
You seem to be arguing both sides of this. They shouldn't do this scale because terrain isn't currently sold in this scale. They shouldn't do this scale because terrain in another scale (where it is plentiful) doesn't sell.
The debate on the different scale to Legion will no doubt continue ad nauseam for some time.
That aside, I feel like this game at least has a place, offers something different to Legion and, arguably, something that better reflects a lot of the events of the franchise. I love Legion but I can also see the appeal of a game that encompasses things like small groups of Jedi & Sith duelling, Bounty Hunters going after their target in an isolated outpost or strike teams going after key military targets.
Even if it does end up taking a lot of core elements from M:CP, I won't complain. Not sure if this will be a major purchase for me but I can't grumble that it exists.
I'll probably be skipping this one. At least now we know why they all-but-killed Armada. Its because they wanted to waste their resources creating a new Star Wars game with an all new miniatures range instead of supporting the games they already had. They could have taken the GW Kill Team approach and used shatterpoint as a spring-board to launch new characters and character variants that would be cross-compatible with Legion without taking up Legion release slots on fan-fave characters that wouldn't necessarily add as much value to the game. It would have catered to two different audiences simultaneously which brings a lot more cost efficiency to both AMG and consumers, as they woudl have had a higher number of potential sales per kit. As others said, I'm not investing into a whole additional set of terrain for this game and I frankly don't need to buy an entire duplicated set of models that I already own, etc. I'm sure this game has its audience, I'm just not part of it.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Excellent. Another Star Wars game in another scale by the very same company barely keeping up with what it already offers, and has maintained that by doing no new releases for at least one other Star Wars game.
This is sadly how capitalisms works. Main office says jump and the devs say Yes Ma'am and jump. No way that the dev team wanted this, and it's only going to bring in yet more work for a small team that is already overworked and likely underpaid for what they do.
100% the dev team wanted this. Will Schick and the AMG crew (if you followed their personal socials) were more excited about the opportunity to create *new* Star Wars games than they were about inheriting Legion/X-Wing/Armada. The legacy-FFG games are not their games, they don't get to say they created it and infused it with their design philosophy/dna, etc. When Legion is recognized as a top game they don't get to say "thanks, we designed that ourselves". Those games are basically the bastard red-headed step children that they were forced to take in. Shatterpoint on the other hand, is a game they created from the ground up that plays the way they want games to play.
Focus on terrain while also being in a scale that nobody really makes terrain for is an odd one, unless they plan to make their own sets, which would be crazy given all the legion imperial bunkers gathering dust on store shelves around the world.
You seem to be arguing both sides of this. They shouldn't do this scale because terrain isn't currently sold in this scale. They shouldn't do this scale because terrain in another scale (where it is plentiful) doesn't sell.
Terrain in more traditional scales absolutely sells, but the market for official stuff that is by definition more expensive because it bears licensing costs would appear at least to be smaller than that for 3rd party stuff that is just as good.
Cannibal wrote: The scale change seems dubious from a scenery perspective. If they still work with existing terrain I think I'll give it a shot but if I have to collect an entire new set of terrain for this game alone that would be bad. Inquisitor was amazing but nobody had terrain in that large scale so everyone just used regular scale figures. Inquisitor figures didn't sell and the game tanked.
I use the same set of terrain for Batman and MCP. The MCP guys are only a little big when I put them right against a doorframe but it overall looks fine. Here's a comparison:
I'll play the game because it looks to be what I like about Star Wars ...
BUT ...
... there is NO WAY I will ever paint another Star Wars mini in another scale. Enough already !! West End metals, Imperial Assault, Legion, now this ?! Nope, I have other hobby interests, too.
I'll just use what I already have (Including WAY too many prepainted WizKids minis).
And let's not forget about scaled terrain. I'm not recreating all I have. GW learned that hard lesson when they introduced the Inquisitor game in 54mm scale. Cool models, sure, but no terrain. And just as playable with minis in regular 40K scale. Bat decision then and bad decision again.
But I'm still looking forward to playing Shatterpoint (with minis and terrain I already have in abundance).
not really that much larger model scale, but on a smaller scale rules wise
for me the game is more interesting than Legion, for various reasons with the biggest one being the focus on heroes
like it makes much more sense to have the various characters in the small fights than the large battles (and for Legion the not-named leaders or side-characters were always more interesting in the battle scale for me)
PS: for the model scale, funny for me is how people go bonkers about slightly different scale in the models for that game, while everyone downplays the larger difference in GW models between games and makes it a non-issue that Underworlds models are a head above the regular fantasy ones
the scale difference kills this for anybody already invested in legion. It could have been a perfect gateway game, to lead people in legion, like heres a couple of heros and a squad - then buy a couple more squads to turn that into a legion army.
Like killteam is for 40K.
Love the size of the game (small warband/skirmish), but absolutely hate that it is in yet another scale. Plus, it would seem the ridiculous amounts of Tactical Detritus will be carrying over to this game from MCP. No thanks.
Also, looking at the picture posted by LunarSol above, it would seem they are incapable of even maintaining a scale within a line. Bucky, Cap, and Loki all look like different scale figures to my eye.
Also, looking at the picture posted by LunarSol above, it would seem they are incapable of even maintaining a scale within a line. Bucky, Cap, and Loki all look like different scale figures to my eye.
IDK what to tell you. Loki, Cap and Bucky are all almost 1 5/8" tall from toe to the top of the head. Cap and Bucky are a little hunched over and Loki is standing very straight, but the difference in height is in the 1/16" range.
I don't think Loki is a good indication of scale since he's supposed to be a runty frost giant. It makes sense for him to be a skinny midget. Similarly Skurge is the son of a storm giant, apparently, and his model is humongous compared to normal humans.
If you look at Hela, to stay with Asgardians, she's about as tall as Captain Marvel. Thor is about as tall as Hawkeye.
AMG seems to do alright with relative scale in Crisis Protocol, with the caveat that I'm not into comics and may not have the most insight into how large they're all supposed to be. But the humans I have all seem to mesh well.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: I'd have been down for a mass battle 10mm game. Just saying.
At least at Crisis Protocol scale they can make a robot AT-AT that's large enough that you can ride it to work.
Despite not needing another system to play this may well be the first Star Wars game I buy into. I love the look of the models, and the scale definitely works for me. Looking forward to it.
FFG / AMG / WhoeverAsmodeeSaysTheyAre has been doing this since Battlelore. Release a lifestyle game, release another one, release yet another, see what sticks, and drop the rest. Nevermind that the customers who bought the dropped games have spent hundreds of dollars, time for another core set, like WotC does with D&D. You remember Runewars Miniatures? The SW IP means this new game won't be DOA, but FFG/AMG/Asmodee already has a reputation with the "fool me once" crowd.
Whelp, time to see if Amazon has any baby Yoda figures for sale during their Early Black Friday sale. Only one and a half months until Christmas! Spend like mad!
Taarnak wrote: Love the size of the game (small warband/skirmish), but absolutely hate that it is in yet another scale. Plus, it would seem the ridiculous amounts of Tactical Detritus will be carrying over to this game from MCP. No thanks.
Also, looking at the picture posted by LunarSol above, it would seem they are incapable of even maintaining a scale within a line. Bucky, Cap, and Loki all look like different scale figures to my eye.
That's what you're looking at, and not Han's enormous head?
Anyway. A new scale and a change from armies to heroes doesn't have much appeal for me. I think I get it (from a company perspective) if its a push to a skirmish game model, but no interest here.
Also, looking at the picture posted by LunarSol above, it would seem they are incapable of even maintaining a scale within a line. Bucky, Cap, and Loki all look like different scale figures to my eye.
That's what you're looking at, and not Han's enormous head?
.
Han's head is indeed enormous, but AMG didn't have anything to do with it's creation. I was only referring to the MCP figures in that quote because AMG made all of those.
Kalamadea wrote: Scale change completely kills it for me, no way in hell I'm building another set of Star Wars terrain. This could have been so good, Legion for mass combat and Shatterpoint for character heavy small skirmish, I would have been all over this.
Instead they'll get nothing from me. I can't imagine I'm the only one. Utterly flabbergasted at this decision, it's everything I want but in a size I'll never accept
Thats 100 percent my stance. I really dont understand it and as a passionate legion fan hate the thought of a split player base/dev ressources
Kalamadea wrote: Scale change completely kills it for me, no way in hell I'm building another set of Star Wars terrain. This could have been so good, Legion for mass combat and Shatterpoint for character heavy small skirmish, I would have been all over this.
Instead they'll get nothing from me. I can't imagine I'm the only one. Utterly flabbergasted at this decision, it's everything I want but in a size I'll never accept
Thats 100 percent my stance. I really dont understand it and as a passionate legion fan hate the thought of a split player base/dev ressources
There isn't much to understand. AMG wants to make their own Star Wars game with rules to their liking and sculpts to their own standards, rather than just expanding games they inherited and that require some continuity and curtail the designers' creativity/freedom. The only "barrier" to this is that they have to convince their bosses that they can make Star Wars fans buy the same characters all over again for a different game and in a different scale. And let's face it, you could hear the resulting ka-ching from across the Atlantic. How are you going to see customer concerns when you have dollar signs in your eyes?
As someone building an IA connection when Legion decided to up-scale, I confess to a bit of schadenfreude on seeing the Legion players get the same treatment. Not very gentlemanly of me and I'll probably feel guilty later, but there you have it.
Thank goodness I said no thanks to Legion and looked to WOTC and 3d printing to grow my 28mm SW Collection. Once I finish off my IA Collection, FFG/AMG/FNG can stuff it.
Eilif wrote: As someone building an IA connection when Legion decided to up-scale, I confess to a bit of schadenfreude on seeing the Legion players get the same treatment. Not very gentlemanly of me and I'll probably feel guilty later, but there you have it.
Thank goodness I said no thanks to Legion and looked to WOTC and 3d printing to grow my 28mm SW Collection. Once I finish off my IA Collection, FFG/AMG/FNG can stuff it.
Yeah, I had (have!) a good IA Star Wars collection, so I wasn't interested in buying into Legion. I'll happily buy into a skirmish-sized Star Wars: Crisis Protocol game. I'm not fussed about Armada not getting ongoing support. I have a ton of stuff and don't feel a need for the game to have every obscure ship from EU/Legends books and comics. I'm actually happy enough for the game ot be "finished". Products don't need to have the 40k treatment, but too many people have been trained by GW's market tactics (taken on by so many others) to need "new" stuff all the time to feel that their games have meaning/support/are worth playing...
Geifer wrote: There isn't much to understand. AMG wants to make their own Star Wars game with rules to their liking and sculpts to their own standards, rather than just expanding games they inherited and that require some continuity and curtail the designers' creativity/freedom. The only "barrier" to this is that they have to convince their bosses that they can make Star Wars fans buy the same characters all over again for a different game and in a different scale. And let's face it, you could hear the resulting ka-ching from across the Atlantic. How are you going to see customer concerns when you have dollar signs in your eyes?
Wait, wait. Did anyone at AMG actually say this? How did they convince the higher-ups that they should be doing this? As this thread clearly shows, there're both hobbyists who like and who do not like this change.
> As someone building an IA connection when Legion decided to up-scale, I confess to a bit of schadenfreude on seeing the Legion players get the same treatment. Not very gentlemanly of me and I'll probably feel guilty later, but there you have it.
Nothing to feel guilty about. If you like a game, but not a company's business model (how they sell the product), you don't have to buy the game. There are many games and miniatures I like, but I don't buy them because of their company's business models, be it random packs, planned obsolescence, lack of support, "short" product lifespan, indifferent or poor customer relations, etc. etc.. That means no Magic packs, few CMON games, no GW,
no D&D core books, little if any FFG/AMG/Asmodee ccg's or miniatures, no WizKids prepainteds, etc. That still leaves plenty of companies whose games I am interested to ruin my wallet!
Geifer wrote: There isn't much to understand. AMG wants to make their own Star Wars game with rules to their liking and sculpts to their own standards, rather than just expanding games they inherited and that require some continuity and curtail the designers' creativity/freedom. The only "barrier" to this is that they have to convince their bosses that they can make Star Wars fans buy the same characters all over again for a different game and in a different scale. And let's face it, you could hear the resulting ka-ching from across the Atlantic. How are you going to see customer concerns when you have dollar signs in your eyes?
Wait, wait. Did anyone at AMG actually say this?
Nope, that's just my speculation based on my experience with capitalism and creative types.
ced1106 wrote: As this thread clearly shows, there're both hobbyists who like and who do not like this change.
That's to be expected and there's nothing wrong with it. To each their own.
That said, unlike many other properties Star Wars does offer greater opportunity to disregard customer concerns because of its general popularity and ability to draw in new crowds if the old customers leave. It's a licensed property and changes hands once in a while, but there is little need to cater to existing customers' model collection. If that is no longer a concern to ensure financial success, you are very likely to see a creative team negotiate that they can realize their vision instead of continuing someone else's.
I've been in the hobby long enough to know that, for the most part, every product is a "limited edition" or has a limited lifespan. Yes there are companies that still sell 20+ year old products, but they tend to be small operations. Star Wars is an expensive IP to license so companies need to crank out product to maximize profits. X-Wing appeals to one set of gamers. Armada and Legion to other sets. Shatterpoint will bring in more new players as well as be played by existing players. At some point Asmodee will lose or give up the SW license and ALL those games will be "dead." Till then the best way to keep them alive is to keep making money off the IP so they can justify paying for the license.
bbb wrote: I've been in the hobby long enough to know that, for the most part, every product is a "limited edition" or has a limited lifespan.
100%. 40K and D&D are anomalies, not the standards.
And while I was upset at FFG for abandoning IA for Legion, enough time has passed that a different game of a property I like might pull me back in. MCP seemed like a game I should like, if I was really into comics. Something like MCP but with I property I love well... But even though this game won't be out 'til next year it too will die and a new Star Wars game will replace it eventually. That's just how things work.
bbb wrote: I've been in the hobby long enough to know that, for the most part, every product is a "limited edition" or has a limited lifespan.
100%. 40K and D&D are anomalies, not the standards.
I agree. I think my calculus for product use is a bit different though. I'm not interested in feeding money just in the hope that the company holds onto a license a bit longer. I'm taking the long view. A couple of examples:
I knew IA would die, but I also know..
- It's a boardgame so likelihood of play in the future is increased
-It will also probably have a reasonable resale value.
-The 28mm figures are compatible with the rest of my collection and have use in other games.
... so I kept buying.
I knew Runewars would die but already had a use in mind for the 28mm figures in another game so I built up my Daqan army and wasn't overly fussed when the whole thing went belly up even sooner than expected.
Legion and Shatterpoint by comparison very likely aren't going to have have enough post-game-death compatibilities, play opportunities or resale to be worth it to me.
bbb wrote: I've been in the hobby long enough to know that, for the most part, every product is a "limited edition" or has a limited lifespan.
100%. 40K and D&D are anomalies, not the standards.
I agree. I think my calculus for product use is a bit different though. I'm not interested in feeding money just in the hours that the company holds onto a license a bit longer. I'm taking the long view. A couple of examples
I knew IA would die, but I also know..
- It's a boardgame so likelihood of play on the future is increased
-It will also probably have a reasonable resale value.
-The 28mm figures are compatible with the rest of my collection and have used in other games.
... So I kept buying.
I knew Runewars would die but already had a use in mint for the 28mm figures in another game so I built up my Daqan army and wasn't overly fussed when the whole thing went belly up even sooner than expected.
Legion and Shatterpoint by comparison very likely aren' going to have have enough the post-game-death compatibilities, play opportunities or resale to be worth it to me.
I think we're at an interesting point in the hobby where there is enough community passion and technological ease that we will see groups continue to play and develop games once they "die." We've seen it for years with Necromunda (which came back) and Epic already. Blood Bowl was kept alive by the fan community and eventually came back too. With 3d printing there are plenty of designers cranking out replacements for out of production items.
Automatically Appended Next Post: For MCP there is a relatively large community that plays almost exclusively over TTS. If AMG went belly-up all of a sudden They would probably keep playing and come up with their own modifications and updates over time.
Yeah, might have to grab a Separatist Starter fleet or two so I'm shored up. I'v got pretty much everything else I'll ever want for friendly at-home games.
Except maybe that SSD!
Certainly looks like it's going to be a fairly hefty starter set indeed.
Will be interesting to see how rigid the list/squad building is; is it just going to be a general Light Side/Dark Side split (which actually might not even work given the Clone Wars and how often we get Dark Side vs Dark Side or Bo Katan being on just about every 'side' going etc.). Probably more likely going to be more open like M:CP but with bonus cards/abilities for themed teams.
One of the things I am wondering around list building is whether you need to take the entire set squad, so if I take Anakin does he automatically come with Rex and the two clone troopers.
I am hoping it’s more flexible then that so Anakin is a separate individual model choice but Rex automatically comes with his two troopers.
Aeneades wrote: One of the things I am wondering around list building is whether you need to take the entire set squad, so if I take Anakin does he automatically come with Rex and the two clone troopers.
I am hoping it’s more flexible then that so Anakin is a separate individual model choice but Rex automatically comes with his two troopers.
I'd have thought it's more flexible; seems odd that they'd include Ahsoka, for example, and not have her available alongside Rex and/or the other 501st troopers or alongside Anakin. Or Bo alongside Maul's Super Commandos. I'd have to think it's just points based or something to that effect but with bonus abilities for linked faction/keywords etc. Maybe there's a pseudo-Force Organisation chart for Leaders/Heroes/Troopers etc. We'll see but I just can't see them making it that restrictive; AMG regularly bang the drum about how much they like thematic or narrative style play and events, and personalization.
I don't know how AMG works so please don't take this a serious concern or anything, more like a what if.
So what if they intend to release multiple character sculpts with themed henchmen, and then your army list consists of, say, three or four groups of those. Ahsoka here is in her Siege of Mandalore design and could get younger Padawan and older Padawan versions.
Asajj is in Dooku's assassin style, and could get a Nightsister assassin version with some Nightsisters and bounty hunter version with some other bounty hunters.
They could sell you the same character three times with different designs and different henchmen, and still have claim to narrative design by having characters in groups based on the movies and shows. And they don't have to give every character the same number of incarnations either, in case of more marginal characters or ones that just don't change.
Not sure about their expansion plans for the game, but if they want to stay in the Clone Wars, it seems to me that they are going to run out of recognizable characters sooner than they would for Crisis Protocol and that's a way of drawing that out.
They could sell you the same character three times with different designs and different henchmen, and still have claim to narrative design by having characters in groups based on the movies and shows. And they don't have to give every character the same number of incarnations either, in case of more marginal characters or ones that just don't change.
Technically a thing in MCP. We have Daredevil and Shadowland Daredevil, Two Captain America, several Spider-men(Spectacular, Amazing, variant), and so on.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Excellent. Another Star Wars game in another scale by the very same company barely keeping up with what it already offers, and has maintained that by doing no new releases for at least one other Star Wars game.
This is my feeling as well. It feels like they are only really supporting MCP right now. Legion and X-wing are an afterthought and Armada is completely neglected. This is guaranteed to cannibalize their own customers who are currently buying Legion or MCP.
This would have been a win for me had it been compatible with Legion miniatures. I don't want to buy another Obi-Wan that is slightly larger and in the same pose....but I'm willing to bet there's a 'no proxy rule' in their tournament rules (even if it's a fig from their company).
It feels like history is repeating itself with all the ex-Privateer Press employees who are now running AMG.
Thanks, but a hard pass. I'm sorry, but I can't take this seriously. The presentation here killed it. There doesn't seem to be a coherent plan, or decision making process in how this is being pushed out. Not to mention, no type of hype, or advertising on this.
With Legion, at least you had a full army to work with. Even if this is a Skirmish game, you would at least thought that both that you would be able to play it right away, and also, that there would be some advanced advertising, or Game Play from the usual suspects/shills.
Is anyone even talking about this, aside from Dakka?
This isn't even a fresh take on the game. You might as well play this game with the figures you already have, in either WTC, or FFG scale.
THIS leads me to want to lean to play this game with old school 3 3/4 inch Star Wars figures. That 35mm scale creep that we are seeing in the "Industry" does not have any fans in my house. They might as well have made these figures 54mm, and we could see a reemergence of an updated Inquisitor style game.
The Lack of vision from Atomic Mass is going to kill this game within a year. From an experienced eye, I wouldn't touch this now, with a ten foot pole.
It will stick around for the length of the licence at least (after all they'll have paid for it and may well have minimum ongoing payments to make) so i wouldn't worry about it any more than any other licenced game
and the extra size is bound to attract painters/collectors who might not have been interested at the smaller sizes
I like the look of the minis. I don't mind the scale going forward. The focus on Characters is great. But I won't be buying in. I already have most of the characters I want, in a scale I like more.
I am very sad that this announcement is a distraction to avoid confirmation that AMG are killing off Armada, X-Wing, and Legion.
Additionally, I am disappointed that this is happening before I could get an Ahsoka, Mace Windu, and Kit Fisto for my Legion armies. A resculpt for Han Solo would have been nice...
Off to trawl the Etsy & 3d stl realms for the characters I want.
They could sell you the same character three times with different designs and different henchmen, and still have claim to narrative design by having characters in groups based on the movies and shows. And they don't have to give every character the same number of incarnations either, in case of more marginal characters or ones that just don't change.
Technically a thing in MCP. We have Daredevil and Shadowland Daredevil, Two Captain America, several Spider-men(Spectacular, Amazing, variant), and so on.
Hmm, I have two Black Widows but didn't know it was so widespread. Good to know. I'm looking forward to my three Ahsokas in a different scale and for a different game than I wanted.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: It will stick around for the length of the licence at least (after all they'll have paid for it and may well have minimum ongoing payments to make) so i wouldn't worry about it any more than any other licenced game
and the extra size is bound to attract painters/collectors who might not have been interested at the smaller sizes
I like to think the proportions in combination with that rather than size alone would make the AMG models desirable for painters and display. As has been noted in this thread already, the head size of Legion models isn't uncontroversial and some of the older ones are a bit lacking in sculpting or casting quality. Shatterpoint is bound to do better in that regard.
Grot 6 wrote: With Legion, at least you had a full army to work with. Even if this is a Skirmish game, you would at least thought that both that you would be able to play it right away, and also, that there would be some advanced advertising, or Game Play from the usual suspects/shills.
Is anyone even talking about this, aside from Dakka?
The starter comes with 16 models (8 models per faction) and, from the announcement video, quite a bit of modular terrain. That seems very playable out of the box for me.
The game isn’t coming out until next July. This is just the initial announcement. They have already said that rule previews will start in January and will be playable for the public for the first time at Adapticon in March. I would expect copies to be sent to the usual suspects around that time or even slightly later, to build hype just before launch.
I have seen quite a lot of chat on other forums, Facebook, etc
Grot 6 wrote: After seeing what this has turned into...
Thanks, but a hard pass. I'm sorry, but I can't take this seriously. The presentation here killed it. There doesn't seem to be a coherent plan, or decision making process in how this is being pushed out. Not to mention, no type of hype, or advertising on this.
With Legion, at least you had a full army to work with. Even if this is a Skirmish game, you would at least thought that both that you would be able to play it right away, and also, that there would be some advanced advertising, or Game Play from the usual suspects/shills.
Is anyone even talking about this, aside from Dakka?
This isn't even a fresh take on the game. You might as well play this game with the figures you already have, in either WTC, or FFG scale.
THIS leads me to want to lean to play this game with old school 3 3/4 inch Star Wars figures. That 35mm scale creep that we are seeing in the "Industry" does not have any fans in my house. They might as well have made these figures 54mm, and we could see a reemergence of an updated Inquisitor style game.
The Lack of vision from Atomic Mass is going to kill this game within a year. From an experienced eye, I wouldn't touch this now, with a ten foot pole.
I can't believe I'm saying this, but I think I agree with Grot 6.
They could sell you the same character three times with different designs and different henchmen, and still have claim to narrative design by having characters in groups based on the movies and shows. And they don't have to give every character the same number of incarnations either, in case of more marginal characters or ones that just don't change.
Technically a thing in MCP. We have Daredevil and Shadowland Daredevil, Two Captain America, several Spider-men(Spectacular, Amazing, variant), and so on.
Hmm, I have two Black Widows but didn't know it was so widespread. Good to know. I'm looking forward to my three Ahsokas in a different scale and for a different game than I wanted.
Legion already has Younger Vader (Anakin), Young Vader and Older Vader. Young Boba, Older Boba. And we all know Ahsoka was going to get her young self, and Fulcrum Self too.
The MCP starter box is going for 80-100 bucks right now. This core box looks like it might be much more substantial, raising the cost of entry, which IMO might not be a good thing for a new game.
It does look like this game might not have the team composition flexibility of Marvel Crisis Protocol. These teams look much more set in stone, with the replayability of the game coming from collecting and playing different teams as opposed to a collection of individual superheroes with different synergies.
Grot 6 wrote: After seeing what this has turned into...
Thanks, but a hard pass. I'm sorry, but I can't take this seriously. The presentation here killed it. There doesn't seem to be a coherent plan, or decision making process in how this is being pushed out. Not to mention, no type of hype, or advertising on this.
With Legion, at least you had a full army to work with. Even if this is a Skirmish game, you would at least thought that both that you would be able to play it right away, and also, that there would be some advanced advertising, or Game Play from the usual suspects/shills.
Turned into?
They've only just started the announcements. There's literally no point in going hard on the marketing at this point in time given that nobody will be able to purchase the game for several months. Yopu can look forward to several months worth of pre-release hype slowly increasing as we get closer to the release date.
If you put your visceral reaction on it not being compatable with Legion aside for a few minutes and think about it logically, there's really nothing particularly bad about the info trickle we've just started to get.
Aeneades wrote: The game isn’t coming out until next July. This is just the initial announcement. They have already said that rule previews will start in January...
Looks like I'll be waiting to January to make any real judgements on this...
Grot 6 wrote: After seeing what this has turned into...
Thanks, but a hard pass. I'm sorry, but I can't take this seriously. The presentation here killed it. There doesn't seem to be a coherent plan, or decision making process in how this is being pushed out. Not to mention, no type of hype, or advertising on this.
With Legion, at least you had a full army to work with. Even if this is a Skirmish game, you would at least thought that both that you would be able to play it right away, and also, that there would be some advanced advertising, or Game Play from the usual suspects/shills.
Is anyone even talking about this, aside from Dakka?
This isn't even a fresh take on the game. You might as well play this game with the figures you already have, in either WTC, or FFG scale.
THIS leads me to want to lean to play this game with old school 3 3/4 inch Star Wars figures. That 35mm scale creep that we are seeing in the "Industry" does not have any fans in my house. They might as well have made these figures 54mm, and we could see a reemergence of an updated Inquisitor style game.
The Lack of vision from Atomic Mass is going to kill this game within a year. From an experienced eye, I wouldn't touch this now, with a ten foot pole.
How many chili peppers - red hot, or otherwise - did you eat before trying to deliver the most spicy of hot takes?
I mean, Shatterpoint is barely past the "Look! New game coming!" stage, and you're already condemning it to the ninth circle of Hell for a number of factors that shouldn't be announced yet, if the game isn't out until July.
I'm probably not getting into Shatterpoint - might pick up a figure or two to paint, depending on pricing - but that post was ludicrous.
Guessing this will MSRP $179-189 with discount on-line sellers offering it at $149.
This part is sarcastic: Using GW logic, you are getting 16 primaris SW models valued at $15* each and $100 worth of terrain, so you are getting $240 worth of stuff at a HUGE discount, almost like the components are FREE. Who could possibly resist?!?!
*Guessing expansions will be $60 for the 4 models and game supplies.
Grot 6 wrote: After seeing what this has turned into...
Thanks, but a hard pass. I'm sorry, but I can't take this seriously. The presentation here killed it. There doesn't seem to be a coherent plan, or decision making process in how this is being pushed out. Not to mention, no type of hype, or advertising on this.
With Legion, at least you had a full army to work with. Even if this is a Skirmish game, you would at least thought that both that you would be able to play it right away, and also, that there would be some advanced advertising, or Game Play from the usual suspects/shills.
Is anyone even talking about this, aside from Dakka?
This isn't even a fresh take on the game. You might as well play this game with the figures you already have, in either WTC, or FFG scale.
THIS leads me to want to lean to play this game with old school 3 3/4 inch Star Wars figures. That 35mm scale creep that we are seeing in the "Industry" does not have any fans in my house. They might as well have made these figures 54mm, and we could see a reemergence of an updated Inquisitor style game.
The Lack of vision from Atomic Mass is going to kill this game within a year. From an experienced eye, I wouldn't touch this now, with a ten foot pole.
How many chili peppers - red hot, or otherwise - did you eat before trying to deliver the most spicy of hot takes?
I mean, Shatterpoint is barely past the "Look! New game coming!" stage, and you're already condemning it to the ninth circle of Hell for a number of factors that shouldn't be announced yet, if the game isn't out until July.
I'm probably not getting into Shatterpoint - might pick up a figure or two to paint, depending on pricing - but that post was ludicrous.
Your opinion is noted.
However- I stick by what I said. THIS is not going to end well either, even with the "Discounts" claimed.
Additional- If you think that was "Spicy", you really don't know me that well. I was cautiously optimistic, until I saw both the prices, and the product presentation. Don't blame me for underwhelming.
I didn't even take my shoes off on the game, yet, but give it time- The topic is young.
Grot 6 wrote: After seeing what this has turned into...
Thanks, but a hard pass. I'm sorry, but I can't take this seriously. The presentation here killed it. There doesn't seem to be a coherent plan, or decision making process in how this is being pushed out. Not to mention, no type of hype, or advertising on this.
With Legion, at least you had a full army to work with. Even if this is a Skirmish game, you would at least thought that both that you would be able to play it right away, and also, that there would be some advanced advertising, or Game Play from the usual suspects/shills.
Is anyone even talking about this, aside from Dakka?
This isn't even a fresh take on the game. You might as well play this game with the figures you already have, in either WTC, or FFG scale.
THIS leads me to want to lean to play this game with old school 3 3/4 inch Star Wars figures. That 35mm scale creep that we are seeing in the "Industry" does not have any fans in my house. They might as well have made these figures 54mm, and we could see a reemergence of an updated Inquisitor style game.
The Lack of vision from Atomic Mass is going to kill this game within a year. From an experienced eye, I wouldn't touch this now, with a ten foot pole.
How many chili peppers - red hot, or otherwise - did you eat before trying to deliver the most spicy of hot takes?
I mean, Shatterpoint is barely past the "Look! New game coming!" stage, and you're already condemning it to the ninth circle of Hell for a number of factors that shouldn't be announced yet, if the game isn't out until July.
I'm probably not getting into Shatterpoint - might pick up a figure or two to paint, depending on pricing - but that post was ludicrous.
Your opinion is noted.
However- I stick by what I said. THIS is not going to end well either, even with the "Discounts" claimed.
Additional- If you think that was "Spicy", you really don't know me that well. I was cautiously optimistic, until I saw both the prices, and the product presentation. Don't blame me for underwhelming.
I didn't even take my shoes off on the game, yet, but give it time- The topic is young.
Where did you see the prices? No pricing information has been released yet.
I can correlate with how much Crisis Protocol goes for, and compare that with how much FF is selling Legion stuff for now. The prices won't work, BTW, because your looking at Apples and Oranges comparing Marvel Superheroes to Star Wars.
I'm sure it'll be worth it to someone, but that someone isn't me.
Off the top of my head, My Boxed set for Crisis Protocol was around 80-89 bucks. Old Venom, Hulk, and MODOC was around 20-30 each.
Legion, I'm not into, but I see them at around 110, 120 in some places, maybe 100.00 on the low end.
Put it together with some educated guess, as to the market (Games like this are around 80-100 bucks).
Grot 6 wrote: I can correlate with how much Crisis Protocol goes for, and compare that with how much FF is selling Legion stuff for now. The prices won't work, BTW, because your looking at Apples and Oranges comparing Marvel Superheroes to Star Wars.
I'm sure it'll be worth it to someone, but that someone isn't me.
Off the top of my head, My Boxed set for Crisis Protocol was around 80-89 bucks. Old Venom, Hulk, and MODOC was around 20-30 each.
Legion, I'm not into, but I see them at around 110, 120 in some places, maybe 100.00 on the low end.
Put it together with some educated guess, as to the market (Games like this are around 80-100 bucks).
Do you mean AMG instead of FF? Fantasy Flight hasn't had Legion, Armada, or X-Wing for around two years now.
Locally, They killed it when whatever that fiasco was that twisted up X wing into a nit.
If FFG doesn't run them, now, you'd know better then I would. They ran me out of caring about Star Wars a long time ago.
Like I said, I don't play Star Wars, so I don't really keep on it.
I do have Crisis Protocol, though. If Atomic goes along with that distribution model, that's going to give you a base game, and then heroes by kit, a few a month.
Of note to you out there in the cheap seats, Here's what On The Tabletop has to say about it. They are a lot more charitable about it then I am.
Take note of the new figures they show in there, BTW. They show you about twelve or so other figures in there.
The game looks like it runs on par with Protocol's tone. where you have troops 3 to a base, and heroes are there to buff and fill in fire and debuffs. And yeah- you'll be throwing cars at each other...
Link-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbkszksoyV8
Aeneades wrote: Along with the terrain this will be a pretty big starter box.
*ears poke up*
Terrain? Did someone say terrain? Are these the things in the background of all the mini shots, or have they shown off specific kits?
It’s the Necromunda like kit with walkways shown in the promo trailer. You seem to get a decent amount in the starter and appears to be modular.
They have a twitch announcement video with a game setup in the background which is apparently the starter terrain (I think it appears halfway through the video).
Aeneades wrote: Along with the terrain this will be a pretty big starter box.
*ears poke up*
Terrain? Did someone say terrain? Are these the things in the background of all the mini shots, or have they shown off specific kits?
The stuff in the background is scratch built, per this post by Rob Hawkins, who was commissioned to make the desert board seen in it (side note- it also gives a clue as to the relative scale of the minis, as he says AMG commissioned it for Legion and Shatterpoint). The bridge etc. look like kits to me.
Legion human minis and MCP human minis are about the same height. The MCP bases are bigger (Shatterpoint bases have a similar rim to MCP bases, so they might be the same style).
It was hinted that a copy of the first is included in the starter but not confirmed yet.
Spoiler:
That's nice, and not just for the game. I was thinking of building some platforms to fit more Legion models in my display case. The High Ground set might just play a part in that.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I wonder how the terrain scales with 40k stuff...
Not very well, I imagine. I expect AMG's stuff to have consistent scale.
It was hinted that a copy of the first is included in the starter but not confirmed yet.
Spoiler:
That's nice, and not just for the game. I was thinking of building some platforms to fit more Legion models in my display case. The High Ground set might just play a part in that.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I wonder how the terrain scales with 40k stuff...
Not very well, I imagine. I expect AMG's stuff to have consistent scale.
It should transfer well enough over to be used in Legion, even if they're technically a different scale. I'll take doors and similar areas being slightly too big over slightly too small.
JimmyWolf87 wrote: It should transfer well enough over to be used in Legion, even if they're technically a different scale. I'll take doors and similar areas being slightly too big over slightly too small.
Yeah, for most terrain features the difference between 1/48 and 1/42 isn't meaningful and some features like doors still work one way, especially in a setting that has humans and human-like species as its focus but needs to accommodate species that are taller or broader than humans. You'll have the most trouble with furniture that interacts with people, like chairs and such, where you need to observe the appropriate scale and too much deviation will stand out.
It might not work for ever single piece, but I think Shatterpoint terrain will largely have dual use for Legion as well.
Additional rant: Looks VERY silly to complain about “making us buy the same characters again!” when the topic is Star Wars of all things. Mate, we’ve been buying the same characters non-stop for decades and decades. Most relevant to this context is the exact same complaints lodged when FFG announced Legion, that time regarding Imperial Assault. Once again, we’re talking about a different game, with its own scale and basing convention, with brand new sculpts. Sorry if you had already bought some Star Wars Lego , I guess?
You mean the entirely valid and legitimate complaints people had regarding Legion and Imperial Assault? I know some people love just uncritically gifting companies their money, but the corporate-customer relationship is supposed to be an adversarial one, you know. They seek to take as much of our money as they can, and we try to get the best value from them we can - everyone who brands entirely legitimate gripes as "whining" etc always seems to forget the second part.
Also, half of the complaint people have in this case is that it *is* a different game: AMG were given the FFG games and we were told those would be their focus for Star Wars gaming. Now Armada is dead, X-Wing is slowly starving to death, and Legion is about to be supplanted by a new game that *could* have just been a mode/expansion for it, but is instead an entirely new product based on AMGs in-house system with a scale change to boot. It's self-evident that they've decided to backburner the former FFG games in favour of their own product, in what reality is that not a valid reason for people who bought in to the FFG games to be annoyed? I don't even play the FFG games themselves, but I did enjoy the models and I was looking forward to Legion getting more hard plastic kits(maybe even some refreshes of the earliest bendy ones) - how likely is that now? Either the new game will be a success, in which case AMG will see that as license to further focus on it over Legion, or it'll flop, in which case Asmodee will start interfering again; neither is a good outcome for people who liked Legion or its minis, so damn-straight they're annoyed, they have every right to be and it's an entirely rational and justifiable response.
But hey, everyone's entitled to their point of view. I guess in yours all those people who felt they were bilked by EA over their Battlefront games should have just shut up and been grateful, afterall I'm sure they bought an action figure of Han Solo or something when they were kids.
what it happening now was expected, at least by some people and I can now say "told you" (though I did not in this forum I think) as the upper management shifting projects around to clear up departments to make it look better on paper (in this case for selling the company) has always the same result
people who work on something very different getting a project to maintain which is not "theirs" never works well and needs time as they are going to adjust it to their needs if they keep it at all
being a small studio that is full booked on maintaining 1 game and designing anther does not help either
everything that is happening now was expected and is not a real surprise, how bad it might be for people who like the game
PS: yet what I a cannot understand is the argument about the "scale" or better said this is the most strange part of the community
GW is doing the very same thing, and people are defending it with their heart (as Heroes from different games of the same IP being larger as from the main game so they just look stupid outside their game) saying that everyone who does not like it or complains about it is a "hater"
while here the difference is mainly the base size and again, GW changing the bases within the main game and people are praising them for doing it while having different base sizes for different games here is like a barrier impossible to overcome (not like people printing/selling adapters to get from 25mm to 32/40mm bases for 40k)
PPS: the main problem with FFG style games has always been the cards and tokens coming with the units so you need to buy to models to play the game (hence one of the few not model agnostic games out there), so the different scale is not the reason why you need to buy the stuff again, cards and tokens are the reason
so in this case if you play both you buy models for both anyway, no matter if you could use them or not because of the different size
and it was the same for Imperial Assault, even if Legion would have been 20mm models, need to buy Han Solo again to get the cards to play him in Legion
Additional rant: Looks VERY silly to complain about “making us buy the same characters again!” when the topic is Star Wars of all things. Mate, we’ve been buying the same characters non-stop for decades and decades. Most relevant to this context is the exact same complaints lodged when FFG announced Legion, that time regarding Imperial Assault. Once again, we’re talking about a different game, with its own scale and basing convention, with brand new sculpts. Sorry if you had already bought some Star Wars Lego , I guess?
Also, half of the complaint people have in this case is that it *is* a different game: AMG were given the FFG games and we were told those would be their focus for Star Wars gaming. Now Armada is dead, X-Wing is slowly starving to death, and Legion is about to be supplanted by a new game that *could* have just been a mode/expansion for it, but is instead an entirely new product based on AMGs in-house system with a scale change to boot. It's self-evident that they've decided to backburner the former FFG games in favour of their own product, in what reality is that not a valid reason for people who bought in to the FFG games to be annoyed?.
A valid concern though the timeline would suggest that Shatterpoint was well into development before AMG even knew they were getting the FFG star wars games dropped on them so, in the short term, they've seemingly had to back-burner that in favour of working through the slate for Legion etc. How effective they'll be at spinning all their respective plates going forward remains to be seen and I don't think it's unfair to at least be slightly hesitant about whether they'll be able to sustain focused, quality support for all the systems. If M:CP is anything to go by then, if nothing else, AMG are productive. It's hard to keep up with releases for that, even if Asmodee's distribution seemingly tends to go out of its way to make the physical releases as disjointed and inconsistent as possible.
Legion looks like it's having a bit of a rules shake up in the coming weeks anyway so they're at least devoting resources to bring it more in line with their ideas (for better or worst) and we know there's a decent amount of AMG-designed content on its way ('Old-man' Boba is out this week in fact and that's the first release they've designed from the start).
Also, half of the complaint people have in this case is that it *is* a different game: AMG were given the FFG games and we were told those would be their focus for Star Wars gaming. Now Armada is dead, X-Wing is slowly starving to death
My questions for unhappy people is about these games - what are/were you expecting? It's Star Wars.
A new S̶p̶a̶c̶e̶ ̶M̶a̶r̶i̶n̶e̶ Rebel Alliance codex every two and a half years? Re-release of a new, updated X-Wing kit with new cards that's a must-buy and superseces your old model and cards and rules?
At a certain point, the tooling and production of some of this crap will start to lose AMG>Asmodee?Embracer money because perhaps not enough people are interested in the MTV-7 for it to turn a profit, and they're probably not too keen on that because of the chain of corporate masters that they need to serve..
Ultimately, you're playing a licenced Star Wars game, and that means that while Disney is keen to keep expanding (and filling in) the lore with new toy products, I mean designs for things, but there's still a finite amout of stuff - particularly in Armada and X-Wing, for them to make without just making up new gak themselves - which their minis licence likely not not allow.
Shatterpoint might not be for you, or a bunch of other people. I understand that. I have a lot of models for Imperial Assault. When they brought out Legion, I decided that I wasn't going to buy the same gak slightly different (in a terrible material) and didn't. Now they're doing the same thing again, just like I didn't buy their very expensive boxes of cardboard "upgrade packs" for X-Wing 2nd edition where I'd have needed 2 or 3 of them for each of my existing fleets. I've got 4 fleets for Armada, and they all work just fine. So I'll probably buy into Shatterpoint, and I'll have no illusion that one day the licence will expire and official support will end, just like it will for MCP. Luckily, my enjoyment and ability to use my models doesn't expire when official support ends. I can still play Rogue Trader or 40k Second edition with my existing rules and models.
Don't like the new product? Don't buy it. I didn't buy Legion or X-Wing 2nd edition. Yet I still continue to live.
I think there is a solid argument to make that just changing the scale on ostensibly the same thing (like iconic Stormtroopers) solely to make it asthetically unsuitable for use with the next line is even worse than coming out with more primaris but with different hats and matching boots. Regardless, I agree with your main premise of some product lines coming to an end and just not buying into the next product line churn. I also didn't buy into Xwing 2: Card Boogaloo but I'm definitely glad that I have the minis for posterity after decades of not having an alternative to micromachines.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: They could have at least given us the TIE Dagger. We deserve a good laugh. Goodness, if they dropped a Star Tours shuttle, I’d be all over that.
(I too buy these minis to fill out my Micromachines collection.)
For decades, those were the goto choice for relatively accurate and in scale minis pre-Xwing. It's what everyone used at gencon games when I was going in from the 90's to the mid 00's.
The TIE Predator is my "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!" model but no chance of that now that they've totally redone the post-trilogy timeline.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I’d buy one of those, too, unironically. Throw in a Chiss Clawcaft and we’re really cooking with gas.
For Armada, bring back some of the classic ships from WEG and Rebellion/Supremacy. And proper alt paints for cross faction ships like Republic VSDs, Imperial Acclamators, Rebel One Providence cruiser.
At the very least, why is there still no Seperatist Lucrehulk as a huge?
I know that this game seems to be mainly be focusing on the Clone Wars era, and that is what kind of makes me lose interest.
Would honestly probably play this over Legion if it came out with GCW warbands due to table space at home and time.
Absolutely love Legion, but a 3x6 is relatively unwieldy for use at home, and being able to get 2-4 games of Shatterpoint in during the time it would take to play a single game of Legion would be a huge bonus to me.
I'm sure they have plenty to release for the Clone Wars, but it shouldn't be hard to expand to the Imperial era down the line. There are enough surviving Jedi and Inquisitors to oppose them to make a few teams for each side. Might even throw in Kylo and Rey eventually if they run out of other stuff to do.
They're absolutely going to expand into Empire/Rebels down the line. I think the Clone Wars era (and the animated series specifically) just plugged right into the tone and aesthetic they were looking for, which is (effectively in their own words), that 'dive right into the action, Saturday morning cartoon' feel.
NH Gunsmith wrote: I know that this game seems to be mainly be focusing on the Clone Wars era, and that is what kind of makes me lose interest.
Would honestly probably play this over Legion if it came out with GCW warbands due to table space at home and time.
Absolutely love Legion, but a 3x6 is relatively unwieldy for use at home, and being able to get 2-4 games of Shatterpoint in during the time it would take to play a single game of Legion would be a huge bonus to me.
This is exactly how I feel. Smaller table size and the scale of the game are just what I am looking for. On the other hand, to me, the Clone Wars are the very least interesting part of Star Wars. GCW is my preference, but I would have been happy with Old Republic or post ROTJ too. I’d love to have Krennic and some Death Troopers square off against Cassian Andor and some rebel commandos, or Emperor Palpatine and some Royal Guards have a show down with Luke and Co. The Bounty Hunters and various criminal elements would make for great bands too.
Well, if the game ever gets that far I will take a look.
I enjoy the 180 to the early Legion threads, with people saying the GCW was the wrong choice and they might pay attention to it once they move to the Clone Wars.
Judging by the obvious TCW inspired art style I bet they'd cover Rebels first before the greater GCW stuff in that style.
Arbitrator wrote: I enjoy the 180 to the early Legion threads, with people saying the GCW was the wrong choice and they might pay attention to it once they move to the Clone Wars.
Judging by the obvious TCW inspired art style I bet they'd cover Rebels first before the greater GCW stuff in that style.
That’s wild, I don’t think I have ever seen a single comment like that. I guess we were looking in different places. I don’t think I’ve heard anyone ever say they prefer the clone wars/prequels to the originals, though I think a lot of that has to do with me being in my mid-thirties and most of the people I associate with on a semi-regular basis are in a similar age group. There are probably a lot of younger fans that feel that way, and I sure there are some older ones too out there.
I would be okay with Rebels to be honest. I agree the art style suits Rebels better than most of the OT and it’s spin-offs.
I think there is a solid argument to make that just changing the scale on ostensibly the same thing (like iconic Stormtroopers) solely to make it asthetically unsuitable for use with the next line is even worse than coming out with more primaris but with different hats and matching boots. Regardless, I agree with your main premise of some product lines coming to an end and just not buying into the next product line churn. I also didn't buy into Xwing 2: Card Boogaloo but I'm definitely glad that I have the minis for posterity after decades of not having an alternative to micromachines.
That's not quite the point I'm making - I'm actually saying that the complaints of "they're cutting support by not releasing more stuff" comes because they've already released most all of the Stormtrooper variants (that will sell) and they're not in a position to make ones with a different hat or bigger boots, as they don't own the IP and likely their contract does not allow them to add new things (like most of the video game licences). - So naturally support will start to slow down unless you want to just buy stormtrooper resculpts - and chances are they won't sell all that well since why would you buy more if they don't have a different hat or bigger boots? - the GW sales impetus!
all releases are limited by what Disney allow them to do and everything until mid/end next year was agreed between Disney and FFG AMG has minor influence on what is coming up for Legion as everything was already settled before it was removed from FFG
Arbitrator wrote: I enjoy the 180 to the early Legion threads, with people saying the GCW was the wrong choice and they might pay attention to it once they move to the Clone Wars.
Judging by the obvious TCW inspired art style I bet they'd cover Rebels first before the greater GCW stuff in that style.
That’s wild, I don’t think I have ever seen a single comment like that. I guess we were looking in different places. I don’t think I’ve heard anyone ever say they prefer the clone wars/prequels to the originals, though I think a lot of that has to do with me being in my mid-thirties and most of the people I associate with on a semi-regular basis are in a similar age group. There are probably a lot of younger fans that feel that way, and I sure there are some older ones too out there.
I would be okay with Rebels to be honest. I agree the art style suits Rebels better than most of the OT and it’s spin-offs.
I have also seen a lot of those comments, simply because did not like the "army" game for a setting were it is all about a single hero and a unit of commandos and the Clone Wars are better for the immersion
but this also came along with the argument das Legion is "too small" and there should be more models on the table like in 40k
They did an unboxing on Twitch today. No real info of rules, not even a card preview, but custom dice and movement/range tools per the Asmodee standard.
No solid info on army construction, but it sounds like there's no hard faction restrictions similar to MCP. They referred to squads quite a bit, which seem to consist of 2 heroes and 2 generic characters. No info if the generic characters are linked in any way or if they're just like the MCP Sentinels where you can take 2 of them as a special rule. Squads seem to be how the game is sold though and we got to see the Hello There squad expansion with; Obi-Wan, Cody and two 212th Clones that they said was designed to be playable out of the box.
The core set is also clearly broken up into 4 premade squads, with the expection that you can mix things up later:
Anakin/Rex/2x 501st Clones
Ahsoka/Bo Katan/2x Mandos
Ventress/General Kalani/2x B1s (3 figures to a base)
Maul/Gar Saxon/2x Super Mandos
Going off that, I think its pretty safe to say the remaining releases we've seen in the trailer are as follows:
Luminara/Barriss/2x 41st Elite Clones
Dooku/Jango/2x Magna Guard
Grevious/2x B2s (2 figures to a base)
Only 3 characters in that last one, but I suspect they're just considered larger, more expensive models for a squad.
My interest in this is starting to fade a bit. More expensive than MCP, at least initially. The miniatures look a bit larger, not a fan of bigatures. And now i'm hearing that there is faction mixing (think Obi Wan leading droid forces). I was initially hoping the teams for this would be solidified and pre built, and the point was to collect thematic teams. There is no way i'm pre ordering this without a lot more info.
Well, I suspected we'd see a higher price compared to Crisis Protocol. Not necessarily a dealbreaker to me, but since I wasn't terribly interested to begin with it certainly doesn't help selling the game to me.
I'm more concerned that the soldier side of the squads will be pretty samey. Clones and clankers everywhere. Yeah, sure, it's Clone Wars and there are Mandalorians as well, but still. I just like my Rebels and Empire, which is not catered to initially at the very least.
Price point on the starter set does look slightly on the expensive side in terms of 'sticker shock' but also probably well worth it in terms of the actual savings on those contents for someone actually planning on investing into the game. Roughly, you're getting one of the Squads and the (quite decent amount of) Terrain for 'free'. Relative to M:CP starter, it's probably a case of more 'value' in terms of savings but also a higher initial outlay. $50 for the squad expansions doesn't seem too bad at all though. Probably be less appealing at UK prices given Asmodee seem to have hiked up their rates over here (swings and roundabouts; shouldn't really be complaining about the general cost of miniature games in the UK compared to other regions).
Glad to see that you can mix/match squads and they're not set teams. Some folks seem to have taken issue with the potential to mix in Dark/Light side forces; understandable concern over min/maxing destroying the thematic squad building but it's not like they never team up, especially in Clone Wars (and especially during the Siege of Mandalore arc that at least half of the starter content invokes). If it's anything like MC then there's probably an incentive to build thematic squads via access to particular tactics/command cards.
It sounds like, from their comments on Facebook, there’s an article coming in the near future about list building that will cover stuff like that. I imagine there is an incentive to make thematic squads yeah.
Sounds reasonable to me. It's better than curtailing creativity and if lore accurate lists are that little bit more efficient than exotic takes or counts as, there shouldn't really be friction between more competitive and more narrative minded players. I like it, provided the implementation works as intended.
Price compared to MCP makes sense. MCP starter contains 10 miniatures. This one contains 16 with 2 of them really being 6 effectively 20 total. It remains to be seen if that translates into more "game" than MCP, but it looks like more stuff at least.
I'm personally so so on the whole thing. It's got a lot of potential but I'm not a huge Clone Wars era fan when it comes to obscure characters. The packs they've shown are pretty light on filler though so I might pick up this initial batch and see if it expands into other eras before I get anything more.
I'd like to see specifically what terrain is included in the starter set. AMG have already done a painting stream showcasing some of it.
Just went to look, really nice of YouTube to not show me even as I am subbed…
Anyway, looks like great terrain as well.
Star Wars themed, but would work for any sci fi games I bet.
The core set honestly seems like a good deal. A bit of sticker shock, but there's definitely a lot of stuff in it. It's effectively 4 of the $50 character packs more terrain than the $75 terrain kits and the dice and tools which they're selling for $15 each. $300+ for $165. It's definitely not a stingy box, even if I wouldn't call it a cheap game.
It is similar priced as the Kill Team Box (185 vs 165 USD), got more models and possible better terrain for the game
those are 4 teams rather than 2 and expansions are similar priced
overall making it the better deal compared to KT core set, specially with a lot of people saying how much value the KT boxes already are
Indeed, the 'value' relative to individual sets looks pretty good, especially at the discounted rates they're going for. Just to note that some of these prices getting thrown about currently won't last forever; Asmodee are offering them to retailers at a reduced rate for the launch so those sellers are able to pass (some of) that on to the customer.
I don't disagree that these starter boxes tend to be good value. I found that to be the case for both Legion and Crisis Protocol and I don't doubt Shatterpoint will be the same. I'm still on the fence whether I'd have a use for the models and the game, though, so the terrain holds the most appeal to me and if I don't pay too much over the price of whatever the terrain is individually to get some fun models to paint, the box might look too attractive to pass up. And then I'll develop a taste for it and get into the game or the miniatures after all and start throwing money at AMG and the plasticrack dealer wins again.
What I'm saying is, I'd like hard facts to justify my habit.
LunarSol wrote: The core set honestly seems like a good deal. A bit of sticker shock, but there's definitely a lot of stuff in it. It's effectively 4 of the $50 character packs more terrain than the $75 terrain kits and the dice and tools which they're selling for $15 each. $300+ for $165. It's definitely not a stingy box, even if I wouldn't call it a cheap game.
I will be happy with that, I really like the terrain as well from looks. Now I can’t wait, definitely will be ordering it day one.
LunarSol wrote: The core set honestly seems like a good deal. A bit of sticker shock, but there's definitely a lot of stuff in it. It's effectively 4 of the $50 character packs more terrain than the $75 terrain kits and the dice and tools which they're selling for $15 each. $300+ for $165. It's definitely not a stingy box, even if I wouldn't call it a cheap game.
I will be happy with that, I really like the terrain as well from looks. Now I can’t wait, definitely will be ordering it day one.
I'd kind of decided that this year I'd focus on terrain and making some new tables. This stuff looks like it will fit in nicely with some of the GW stuff that had been languishing in the closet and will likely be what pushes me to bulid a real table with it.
It is not logical to assess the deal based on what the components would cost individually. It is this lack of critical thinking that allows companies like GW to engage in predatory pricing because people who do this are not referencing anything outside a controlled and closed system for comparison. In this case you really do need to compare apples to oranges...
Tokhuah wrote: It is not logical to assess the deal based on what the components would cost individually. It is this lack of critical thinking that allows companies like GW to engage in predatory pricing because people who do this are not referencing anything outside a controlled and closed system for comparison. In this case you really do need to compare apples to oranges...
I generally agree, though I wouldn't call the pricing of luxury goods (GW Wargames) "Predatory" . GW products are not essentials we cannot live without.
Price comparisons outside the system are likely not useful however. The folks buying this set are mostly either those who will buy it with price bring no object, or those who think it's a fair deal based on a comparison to GW or MCP. Their frame for value is likely completely different than folks who buy outside the big names.
The boardgaming forum I frequent is almost unanimous that with such a price this game is going to be dead on arrival. That's the perspective of people outside the miniature wargaming ("why should I pay so much when I had Imperial Assault for a fraction of this price?")
Also, GW nowadays seem to have pretty friendly prices compared to what many other companies are trying to sell. For example I use many GW models in my Warmachine armies, because I often save half of the price doing that (and still get excellent quality).
Tokhuah wrote: It is not logical to assess the deal based on what the components would cost individually. It is this lack of critical thinking that allows companies like GW to engage in predatory pricing because people who do this are not referencing anything outside a controlled and closed system for comparison. In this case you really do need to compare apples to oranges...
.....
Anyway, it can be compared to other products within the same sector of the market and it's probably dependent on how much terrain is in the starter before that can be judged fully. They do also need to get a shift on in terms of showcasing gameplay.
Thanks, that is good news. Now I just have to wait to see how egregious the scale is.
There's a video on their YouTube channel where they put both Legion and Shatterpoint models on the terrain to show it works for both. It's effectively the difference between Primaris and firstborn marines.
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Tokhuah wrote: It is not logical to assess the deal based on what the components would cost individually. It is this lack of critical thinking that allows companies like GW to engage in predatory pricing because people who do this are not referencing anything outside a controlled and closed system for comparison. In this case you really do need to compare apples to oranges...
This is for sure true and I don't mean to imply otherwise. That said, I don't love the usual price per model or whatever measures of value personally. Every time I find myself lured in by a good deal, I find myself wildly disappointed with the actual enjoyment I get out of a lot of stuff. Most of the time you get a unit of models that turn into a slog to paint and transport and store. I find I get more enjoyment from the 2 MCP models I get in a box in terms of painting displaying and playing than I do from a lot of models I got for cheaper PPM and my only point is that this game does not appear unfairly priced for what you get compared to similar games that I've been quite happy with. I guess what I'm trying to say is that in spite costing more for fewer models, this looks to have more value for me than what I would get out of the Clone Wars core set for Legion.
I don't have time for the full video right now, being an hour long, but you can get a bit of an impression in the first two minutes or so. Seems decent at a glance, possibly helped by Legion's tall bases. Would have been good to have a Stormtrooper squad leader or other model that simply stands up straight, but Boba doesn't seem to look out of place next to that door. That's good.
Cyel wrote: The boardgaming forum I frequent is almost unanimous that with such a price this game is going to be dead on arrival. That's the perspective of people outside the miniature wargaming ("why should I pay so much when I had Imperial Assault for a fraction of this price?")).
I'd be inclined to agree, but I would have said the same about MCP and it did all right.
Also, GW nowadays seem to have pretty friendly prices compared to what many other companies are trying to sell. For example I use many GW models in my Warmachine armies, because I often save half of the price doing that (and still get excellent quality).
This is the surest evidence I've seen that people have bent their perspective to conform to GW's preferred reality. When people are buying GW to "Save" money the Kool-Aid has been well and truly drunk.
I am hearing that Shatterpoint will be 40mm scale another increase to scale can't be good to keep players. but the good news isn't Star Wars Lego Mini figs 40 mm also??
In 1d4+1 years, the game will accrue enough counters that the next game will end up somewhere between that supersized prepatinted Warzone game and Inquisitor. If they have the license 2d4 years after that, it's off to playing with OG Star Wars figures from Kenner.
warboss wrote: In 1d4+1 years, the game will accrue enough counters that the next game will end up somewhere between that supersized prepatinted Warzone game and Inquisitor. If they have the license 2d4 years after that, it's off to playing with OG Star Wars figures from Kenner.
If it was still FFG rather than Atomic Mass Games I would definitely agree with the token number bloat/ridiculousness.
I play Marvel Crisis Protocol and there are a reasonable number of tokens in a game, but if you buy all packs to have every option there are a hell of a lot of tokens.
Also, GW nowadays seem to have pretty friendly prices compared to what many other companies are trying to sell. For example I use many GW models in my Warmachine armies, because I often save half of the price doing that (and still get excellent quality).
This is the surest evidence I've seen that people have bent their perspective to conform to GW's preferred reality. When people are buying GW to "Save" money the Kool-Aid has been well and truly drunk.
Surprisingly I used maths, not gut feeling! Shock! If I can buy 10 GW undead cavalry to use as alternative for 5 PP undead cavalry (so I get2 units indtead of one) and still pay half the money is it my skewed perspective and preferred reality?
And you are the one talking about bending reality to conform to one's beliefs? That's rich.
Cyel wrote: The boardgaming forum I frequent is almost unanimous that with such a price this game is going to be dead on arrival. That's the perspective of people outside the miniature wargaming ("why should I pay so much when I had Imperial Assault for a fraction of this price?")).
I'd be inclined to agree, but I would have said the same about MCP and it did all right.
No offense to boardgamers but I wouldn't heed the predictions of people who don't care what their game pieces look like and accept bent PVC laser swords if it saves them money. Without appreciation for the modeling and painting aspect of wargames they're missing a large part of the appeal, and therefore willingness to put up with higher prices. It's a different mindset.
You have to consider that someone like me won't spend less than six hours painting each model. Add some assembly and I'll get a hundred hours of fun out of the sixteen models in the core box before I even play my first game. That doesn't figure in the terrain that's in the box either. Dropping 150€ in one go isn't something I'd do without serious consideration, but objectively the entertainment per € ratio for miniatures compares favorably to a lot of other entertainment products and activities. Provided, of course, that the product actually fulfills your needs. If you slap on a quick paintjob because you want to start playing or if you only like half of the models in the box the price may be a lot less palatable.
Cyel wrote: The boardgaming forum I frequent is almost unanimous that with such a price this game is going to be dead on arrival. That's the perspective of people outside the miniature wargaming ("why should I pay so much when I had Imperial Assault for a fraction of this price?")).
I'd be inclined to agree, but I would have said the same about MCP and it did all right.
No offense to boardgamers but I wouldn't heed the predictions of people who don't care what their game pieces look like and accept bent PVC laser swords if it saves them money. Without appreciation for the modeling and painting aspect of wargames they're missing a large part of the appeal, and therefore willingness to put up with higher prices. It's a different mindset.
You have to consider that someone like me won't spend less than six hours painting each model. Add some assembly and I'll get a hundred hours of fun out of the sixteen models in the core box before I even play my first game. That doesn't figure in the terrain that's in the box either. Dropping 150€ in one go isn't something I'd do without serious consideration, but objectively the entertainment per € ratio for miniatures compares favorably to a lot of other entertainment products and activities. Provided, of course, that the product actually fulfills your needs. If you slap on a quick paintjob because you want to start playing or if you only like half of the models in the box the price may be a lot less palatable.
Very different mindset for what people want from games, just have to look at some board games with loads of little cardboard markers, special dice and things.
Wargamers tend to shy away from all that.
But RPG players love there dice, and often have discussions of special ones.
Something that a lot of wargamers dislike as well, when even switching to a dice other than D6 for a game gets some wargamers all weird.
It’s the same as mini price above, I would rather pay more money for less minis if I like them, get the quality I desire and want to experiance the game as best, with the miniatures that represent it. Also we don’t get cheap warhammer, so that’s out :p
Also, GW nowadays seem to have pretty friendly prices compared to what many other companies are trying to sell. For example I use many GW models in my Warmachine armies, because I often save half of the price doing that (and still get excellent quality).
This is the surest evidence I've seen that people have bent their perspective to conform to GW's preferred reality. When people are buying GW to "Save" money the Kool-Aid has been well and truly drunk.
Surprisingly I used maths, not gut feeling! Shock! If I can buy 10 GW undead cavalry to use as alternative for 5 PP undead cavalry (so I get2 units indtead of one) and still pay half the money is it my skewed perspective and preferred reality?
And you are the one talking about bending reality to conform to one's beliefs? That's rich.
I think you misunderstood the point I was trying to make. My fault for going for the pithy one-liner and not being more clear.
GW being more affordable than WM on a per-fig basis is old news. If you like the figs and it makes your hobby cost a bit less then more power to you.
My point however, was that GW is wacky expensive and that the person who buys GW feeling like they're saving money is doing so only by comparison Warmachine or MCP or Shatterpoint which are even more wackily expensive.
Those buyers have bent their reality by adjusting their baseline to GW's crazy high pricing. I don't blame them for it, they're just conforming to expectations GW has slowly been pushing on them for the past few decades . Further, it's that acceptance that allows other companies to price even higher if they can convince buyers their product is better.
Genoside07 wrote: I am hearing that Shatterpoint will be 40mm scale another increase to scale can't be good to keep players. but the good news isn't Star Wars Lego Mini figs 40 mm also??
A Lego Minifig is 40mm from bottom of the feet to the top of the head peg, so 37mm-ish in scale.
Most of the characters thus far depicted in Shatterpoint also exist as LEGO minifigs, so if you're so inclined, you could easily substitute minifigs for miniatures...
So, blatantly trashing the lore to make the game feel like, in their own words, a saturday morning cartoon? Yeah, this dumpster fire of a game is exactly what I expected from AMG and I hope its death takes AMG with it so someone else can have the Star Wars miniatures license.
It's a weird system. Highly restrictive, yet weirdly open. It'll be interesting to see how workable it is with models with different points costs. I like it in theory, but I can't help but feel like there's tons of popular groups that just don't fit into this box. The crew of the Ghost springs to mind as something perfect for the game that just doesn't fit into these very specific holes.
I do think that like MCP, it just means that a lot of the flavor of the game is going to fall back upon the value of keyword synergies. Hodgepodge lists might be meta, but in my experience MCP's somehow struck the right balance of allowing you to build anything, but making thematic lists feel rewarding.
LunarSol wrote: It's a weird system. Highly restrictive, yet weirdly open. It'll be interesting to see how workable it is with models with different points costs. I like it in theory, but I can't help but feel like there's tons of popular groups that just don't fit into this box. The crew of the Ghost springs to mind as something perfect for the game that just doesn't fit into these very specific holes.
I do think that like MCP, it just means that a lot of the flavor of the game is going to fall back upon the value of keyword synergies. Hodgepodge lists might be meta, but in my experience MCP's somehow struck the right balance of allowing you to build anything, but making thematic lists feel rewarding.
Spectre Squad probably wouldn't be too hard to do. You could roll Hera & Chopper as the Primary, Kanan & Ezra as the Secondary, and Zeb & Sabine as the Support. Or if they want to stick to 4 models per squad, separate Kanan & Ezra into Secondary & Support and double up Zeb & Sabine on one base.
There's a lot of variety they can pull from to work the characters players love into the game and make it work well within the confines of the rules. I don't think hodgepodge is going to be a huge issue for this game as it also seems that hodgepodge is not an issue in MCP.
Aecus Decimus wrote: So, blatantly trashing the lore to make the game feel like, in their own words, a saturday morning cartoon? Yeah, this dumpster fire of a game is exactly what I expected from AMG and I hope its death takes AMG with it so someone else can have the Star Wars miniatures license.
Spectre Squad probably wouldn't be too hard to do. You could roll Hera & Chopper as the Primary, Kanan & Ezra as the Secondary, and Zeb & Sabine as the Support. Or if they want to stick to 4 models per squad, separate Kanan & Ezra into Secondary & Support and double up Zeb & Sabine on one base.
There's a lot of variety they can pull from to work the characters players love into the game and make it work well within the confines of the rules. I don't think hodgepodge is going to be a huge issue for this game as it also seems that hodgepodge is not an issue in MCP.
Yeah, thinking on it as long as the Support Units double up properly there's a lot you can do. Luke/Leia/Droids + Han/Chewie/Rebel Troopers or something seems like obvious packs. It can definitely work.
I think the bigger question is just point variance. Since everything HAS to be C= A+B, what can actually be paired up will be interesting. Like a 7 point primary alone messes with what can be paired up. A bit worried that initially everything will just be 8/4/4. I'm curious to see what happens when there's more 2-3 point units.
Again, its just interesting. I'm quite happy with the MCP system as a whole and I suspect this will work for my purposes quite well. Just curious is all.
Aecus Decimus wrote: So, blatantly trashing the lore to make the game feel like, in their own words, a saturday morning cartoon? Yeah, this dumpster fire of a game is exactly what I expected from AMG and I hope its death takes AMG with it so someone else can have the Star Wars miniatures license.
When the 'Saturday morning cartoon' in question is The Clone Wars, which has multiple instances of Light/Dark Side and GAR/CIS affiliated characters teaming up or forming temporary alliances then I think the idea of them having 'trashed the lore' doesn't really count for much.
Everything is still era-locked, you're not going to be seeing Anakin teaming up with Darth Vader and a couple of Resistance troopers.
Eh, while they said that you can't mix eras within a squad, the two squads you field together could be from different eras.
I don't agree with Aecus that this is "blatantly trashing the lore", but he is right in that it's going to be a bit odd to see a team of a Clone Wars squad led by Anakin teaming with a GCW squad led by Luke, for example.
Dysartes wrote: Eh, while they said that you can't mix eras within a squad, the two squads you field together could be from different eras.
I don't agree with Aecus that this is "blatantly trashing the lore", but he is right in that it's going to be a bit odd to see a team of a Clone Wars squad led by Anakin teaming with a GCW squad led by Luke, for example.
The implication I took from the article (and from knowing how M:CP works) is that you would bring your Strike Team (2 squads) to a game but then select only a single (era-locked) squad for that particular battle. I could be reading too much into it and you do indeed use the entire Strike Team.
Even then you wouldn't be able to control what era of stuff your opponents were bringing but I don't think trying to maintain coherency there is particularly worthwhile in a competitive setting (and if players want to stipulate an era limit during casual play then nobody is stopping them).
JimmyWolf87 wrote: When the 'Saturday morning cartoon' in question is The Clone Wars, which has multiple instances of Light/Dark Side and GAR/CIS affiliated characters teaming up or forming temporary alliances then I think the idea of them having 'trashed the lore' doesn't really count for much.
Everything is still era-locked, you're not going to be seeing Anakin teaming up with Darth Vader and a couple of Resistance troopers.
It's not just that characters can form temporary alliances despite their faction allegiance, it's that you can have teams which are impossible within the scope of the lore. Vader with his rebel trooper buddies teaming up with Luke and some bounty hunters to fight Anakin and battle droids paired with Jango Fett and some clones is just plain stupid. As is the entire framing of the game as a superhero and sidekicks vs. another superhero and their sidekicks, which is thematically ridiculous for a Star Wars game. This is just MCP re-skinned with Star Wars characters because MCP is the only thing AMG cares about making. It's what they turned X-Wing into and now they're making a literal saturday morning superhero cartoon game, complete with a fundamental design goal that it's all just stupid meaningless cartoon fights where the superheroes brawl in the middle of the battlefield and nothing of any importance ever happens:
But even so, just like any great animated series, there is a distinct understanding that - win or lose - we know all our heroes and villains will be back again next week (or more accurately, next game) to start the battle all over again.
I'm so glad AMG discontinued support for Armada to make room for this dumpster fire of a game.
I'm so glad AMG discontinued support for Armada to make room for this dumpster fire of a game.
:-(
I miss continued Armada support. It took time to grow on me, but what an amazing system. Why this game exists while Armada is functionally dead is baffling.
I'm so glad AMG discontinued support for Armada to make room for this dumpster fire of a game.
:-(
I miss continued Armada support. It took time to grow on me, but what an amazing system. Why this game exists while Armada is functionally dead is baffling.
In the pursuit for more money, AMG probably felt like a new skirmish game they built from the ground up wad a better path forward than a fleet scale game they inherented?
bbb wrote: In the pursuit for more money, AMG probably felt like a new skirmish game they built from the ground up wad a better path forward than a fleet scale game they inherented?
Assuming it's a successful game, which is a somewhat optimistic assumption given its absurd "saturday morning superhero cartoon" concept and that its closest FFG equivalent already failed. I think it's more that any financial arguments are a rationalization for AMG rejecting anything that doesn't fit their preferred MCP style of play. They didn't want the Star Wars games so now Armada is gone, X-Wing is butchered with the new devs openly saying "you're playing the game wrong so we're going to make it into the game we want you to play", and now their first new release is MCP with Star Wars miniatures.
Every miniatures game is absurd. Taking offense to a "Saturday morning cartoon" spin on a miniatures game is bizarre. We're talking about playing with toy soldiers not solving world hunger.
The market for skirmish games is larger than fleet scale games. MCP has proven that AMG can take an existing property with a deep roster of characters and make a profitable skirmish scale tabletop game out of it. They're going with their strengths in the pursuit of profitability which ensures continued funding to stay in business.
bbb wrote: Every miniatures game is absurd. Taking offense to a "Saturday morning cartoon" spin on a miniatures game is bizarre. We're talking about playing with toy soldiers not solving world hunger.
Do you honestly not see a thematic difference between MCP and Kill Team? Or between MCP and a Napoleonic miniatures game?
The market for skirmish games is larger than fleet scale games.
Theoretically. Remember that FFG's skirmish-scale miniatures game was largely a failure and was abandoned once Legion provided an alternative ground combat game in the Star Wars setting. AMG is betting on their re-skin of MCP succeeding where FFG already failed to find a market.
MCP has proven that AMG can take an existing property with a deep roster of characters and make a profitable skirmish scale tabletop game out of it. They're going with their strengths in the pursuit of profitability which ensures continued funding to stay in business.
That's certainly the polite way to say "AMG is only able to make one game so they're going to make a re-skin of that one game no matter how bad a fit it is for the lore".
bbb wrote: Every miniatures game is absurd. Taking offense to a "Saturday morning cartoon" spin on a miniatures game is bizarre. We're talking about playing with toy soldiers not solving world hunger.
Do you honestly not see a thematic difference between MCP and Kill Team? Or between MCP and a Napoleonic miniatures game?
They are all games played with toy soldiers. Nothing about the theme makes any of them more or less absurd than another game. The Saturday morning slant is no different than a serious historical slant. Just themes for games. All games are absurd no matter how "serious" the themes or mechanics are. They are entertainment and diversions from the drudgery of life.
MCP has proven that AMG can take an existing property with a deep roster of characters and make a profitable skirmish scale tabletop game out of it. They're going with their strengths in the pursuit of profitability which ensures continued funding to stay in business.
That's certainly the polite way to say "AMG is only able to make one game so they're going to make a re-skin of that one game no matter how bad a fit it is for the lore".
MCP is a fun skirmish game with enjoyable mechanics. They've repeatedly said Shatterpoint is not a SW reskin of MCP. My hope is that Shatterpoint is a fun skirmish game with enjoyable mechanics.
Aecus just seems like someone who can't enjoy something unless it's in their VERY narrow view of what makes a game good or presentable.
Can't make everyone happy, nor should you, but within the realm of this game, I think the path they've selected forward has potential to be enjoyable to a larger portion of gamers, so long as we don't have gatekeeping jagoffs harping down people's throats.
I for one welcome our new skirmish overlords
EDIT: For real tho, I'm sorry that you feel the way you do Aecus. I hope you can find something fun beyond this game, I just ask that you leave the issue alone if you are only going to sit there and attack the "Saturday morning cartoon" 'aspect' of the game.
rybackstun wrote: EDIT: For real tho, I'm sorry that you feel the way you do Aecus. I hope you can find something fun beyond this game, I just ask that you leave the issue alone if you are only going to sit there and attack the "Saturday morning cartoon" 'aspect' of the game.
I have plenty of fun, I don't know why defenders of bad products always have to fall back on "U DONT KNOW WHAT FUN IS" in a desperate attempt to silence criticism. But I'll stop attacking AMG and their superhero nonsense when they stop publishing superhero nonsense. Until then the hacks that butchered X-Wing and cancelled Armada to make room for this dumpster fire of a game will continue to get honest feedback on their lack of skills and poor quality work.
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bbb wrote: They are all games played with toy soldiers. Nothing about the theme makes any of them more or less absurd than another game. The Saturday morning slant is no different than a serious historical slant. Just themes for games. All games are absurd no matter how "serious" the themes or mechanics are. They are entertainment and diversions from the drudgery of life.
If you don't understand thematic differences between games and genres I don't really know what to say. Maybe for you everything is just silly toys but for many of us it isn't.
They've repeatedly said Shatterpoint is not a SW reskin of MCP.
And yet everything they've said about this game indicates that it is, if not a literal re-skin of the exact MCP rules, a very MCP-like superhero brawl game with some superficial Star Wars aesthetics tacked on.
bbb wrote: They are all games played with toy soldiers. Nothing about the theme makes any of them more or less absurd than another game. The Saturday morning slant is no different than a serious historical slant. Just themes for games. All games are absurd no matter how "serious" the themes or mechanics are. They are entertainment and diversions from the drudgery of life.
If you don't understand thematic differences between games and genres I don't really know what to say. Maybe for you everything is just silly toys but for many of us it isn't.
If you don't understand the inherent absurdity of all games and genres I don't really know what to say. Maybe for you silly toys are everything, but for many of us they aren't.
"Saturday morning" Star Wars skirmish game is no less absurd than gritty-nuanced-reality recreation Star Wars fleet action. We're playing in imaginary settings with made up rules and lumps of plastic/metal that we pretend represent made up characters. Even "historical" games are pure fantasy once you deviate from set historical events. That's the nature of all games. Fantasy. Escapism. They can be influenced by different genres and themes, but they are all diversions from everyday life.
bbb wrote: "Saturday morning" Star Wars skirmish game is no less absurd than gritty-nuanced-reality recreation Star Wars fleet action.
Not different at all, except that one is the canon version of Star Wars that everyone is familiar with while the other is a bizarre alternate version created because the only thing AMG cares about is superhero brawl games. Are you sure you understand what the word "absurd" means?
The game hasn't even shown enough mechanics to be seen as good or bad.
We have AMG's own commentary on their goals for the game and those comments are very clear about it being a bad game that will have the same flaws as their botched version of X-Wing.
bbb wrote: "Saturday morning" Star Wars skirmish game is no less absurd than gritty-nuanced-reality recreation Star Wars fleet action.
Not different at all, except that one is the canon version of Star Wars that everyone is familiar with while the other is a bizarre alternate version created because the only thing AMG cares about is superhero brawl games. Are you sure you understand what the word "absurd" means?
absurd - adjective - wildly unreasonable, illogical, or inappropriate
"The notion that a fictional setting involving physics defying technology and space wizards should be taken seriously is absurd."
Star Wars 'canon' is more absurd than Star Wars itself.
Hey, look, I enjoy Star Wars, but it is not something to be taken seriously. It's an intellectual property that's been around for 46 years of humanity's approximately 6,000 years since we can currently best determine writing to have started. Its creator sold it to a mouse. Over the last 46 years there have been hundreds if not thousands of stories told within that setting. The 'canon' keeps changing. I used to care about canon, but then I realized this is all made up nonsense. It's fun nonsense (at times), but it is all just pretend and inconsequential. Like what parts of it you like. Don't like the parts you don't like. It all ultimately doesn't matter.
Azazelx wrote: I just see a very angry person posting angry things because someone else is doing things in a manner that he wouldn't do them.
Both here and in N&B.
Fascinating coincidence given the fact that one of my main reasons for disliking AMG is how they came into X-Wing, openly said "you're having fun the wrong way and we're going to make you play the game our way", and proceeded to wreck the game in pursuit of making it more like MCP.
Star Wars 'canon' is more absurd than Star Wars itself.
Star Wars "canon" includes Nice Guy Boba Fett, the OJ Simpson Car Chase In Space, The Last Jedi's version of Luke and Jar Jar Binks. And that's entirely disregarding everything in the EU and Legends.
Star Wars canon ceased to mean much decades ago, and really hasn't improved overall
Azazelx wrote: I just see a very angry person posting angry things because someone else is doing things in a manner that he wouldn't do them. Both here and in N&B.
Fascinating coincidence given the fact that one of my main reasons for disliking AMG is how they came into X-Wing, openly said "you're having fun the wrong way and we're going to make you play the game our way", and proceeded to wreck the game in pursuit of making it more like MCP.
I stopped buying (and following) X-Wing when FFG Said "please give us hundreds of dollars for new cardboard if you want to keep using your thousands of dollars of toys in the new version of our game". I still play 1st ed with my group and it works fine for us. If you play competitively, or pick up games in stores or tournaments, it's clearly unfortunate if AMG is changing the game again and I'd agree that it likely sucks.
I bought most of the stuff for Armada, and I'm overall happy with the 4 big factions. I prefer a SW game to feel more or less film-complete as opposed to having it be added to like 40k's endless additions of new things that were really there all along!
Could be much worse, getting back into comics is a roller coaster.
But I think the minis for this look great, and as long as the game is fun.
And the setting was mostly wanted I feel talking to people ate clubs and shop about legion.
For legion there was lots of potential players who where just waiting for specific characters that never come, so never wanted to play.
And not even characters that I think they where wrong to wait for.
Aecus Decimus wrote: it's that you can have teams which are impossible within the scope of the lore Vader with his rebel trooper buddies teaming up with Luke and some bounty hunters to fight Anakin and battle droids paired with Jango Fett and some clones is just plain stupid. As is the entire framing of the game as a superhero and sidekicks vs. another superhero and their sidekicks, which is thematically ridiculous for a Star Wars game.
and Vader teaming up with Luke is your big "Lore" problem with this scenario?
not Vader fighting a younger himself?
and for the game itself, put all the Heroes in a Hero focus team game fits the Star Wars setting from the shows and movies much better than having them pushed into Legion were they make not much sense at all
and the setting itself is a Saturday morning cartoon, Rebels, Clone Wars, The Clone Wars, Ewoks
What part of Legion doesn't make sense? Have you seen the movies? There's no shortage of large battle scenes with the heroes mixed in.
Vader teaming up with Yoda to fight Anakin etc is in no way logical to the movies or shows, it is however exactly what you'd see in a shovelware gacha mobile game.
I stopped buying (and following) X-Wing when FFG Said "please give us hundreds of dollars for new cardboard if you want to keep using your thousands of dollars of toys in the new version of our game". I still play 1st ed with my group and it works fine for us. If you play competitively, or pick up games in stores or tournaments, it's clearly unfortunate if AMG is changing the game again and I'd agree that it likely sucks.
such things are only working if GW is doing them, hence why trying to copy the success from GW by copying the GW model of Edition changes does not work well with other companies
but given that X-Wing 2.0 did not really work out well anyway, the changes from AMG are better received by those who did not like the switch from 1E to 2.0, where those heavily into 2.0 oppose 2.5 in the beginning (mainly because the community did not see a need for a change)
the competitive scene itself is more happy with 2.5 now for the better balance and having more options to win now
that the game is now again focused on named pilots rather than generic ones is something people like and don't like (a lot of 1E players like that more) and is better received with the casual players who got into the game because of the named pilots in the first place
kodos wrote: and the setting itself is a Saturday morning cartoon, Rebels, Clone Wars, The Clone Wars, Ewoks
You forgot Droids!
that one never aired here, so have never seen it
Billicus wrote: What part of Legion doesn't make sense? Have you seen the movies? There's no shortage of large battle scenes with the heroes mixed in.
and what have the "heroes" done during that battles?
even in clone wars the "heroes" focus on commando and "side" projects rather than doing the battle itself and when people are asking to put more heroes into that game and make those stronger so that the focus shifts to Luke fighting Vader rather than troopers fighting each other
if someone wants a game that is all about Luke fighting Vader, Shatterpoint is the better place (no need for a Platoon level game if you want "Herohammer")
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Billicus wrote: Vader teaming up with Yoda to fight Anakin etc is in no way logical to the movies or shows, it is however exactly what you'd see in a shovelware gacha mobile game.
yeah, so first of all remove the possibility of Vader fighting Anakin, than Vader fighting Vader and young Obi-Wan fighting Vader
should not be there in the first place as that kills the lore, than we can talk about Vader teaming up with Yoda (should only be able to do it with Luke if the other player brings Palpatine)
Apple fox wrote: Could be much worse, getting back into comics is a roller coaster.
But I think the minis for this look great, and as long as the game is fun.
And the setting was mostly wanted I feel talking to people ate clubs and shop about legion.
For legion there was lots of potential players who where just waiting for specific characters that never come, so never wanted to play.
And not even characters that I think they where wrong to wait for.
And the minis look so good! Ahh I want them.
oh, I gave up on the idea of getting back into comics a long, long time ago. Ben Reilly? Mephisto & Mary-Jane? I noped right out and stayed right out, so the MCU being something I could mostly enjoy through Phases 1-3 was a lovely surprise.
Legion being an arbitrarily different scale to IA with Restic minis meant I never bothered, so a new HIPS skirmish game sounds good to me, and not being in the same scale as Legion I get would be annoying, but it doesn't mean anything to me personally. So based on my own "play with small group" perspective I don't have an issue with Shatterpoint being a new game to buy into.
but given that X-Wing 2.0 did not really work out well anyway, the changes from AMG are better received by those who did not like the switch from 1E to 2.0, where those heavily into 2.0 oppose 2.5 in the beginning (mainly because the community did not see a need for a change)
the competitive scene itself is more happy with 2.5 now for the better balance and having more options to win now
that the game is now again focused on named pilots rather than generic ones is something people like and don't like (a lot of 1E players like that more) and is better received with the casual players who got into the game because of the named pilots in the first place
Fair enough - I honestly have no intention of spending big on buying new cardboard for 2.0 or 2.5 or 2.75, so I have absolutely no dog in that fight - hopefully they can turn the game into something that suits the most people while alienating as few as possible. I'm personally already noped out.
As for the whole Luke & Vader vs Anakin & Yoda thing - it all depends on who you play and how you play with them. I give no feths about competitive scenes or tournaments, but "the lore" has never mattered in those situations in almost any game, except perhaps MESBG when they required each player to bring one "good" and one "evil" force. If you're playing with Randos, you get whatever you get. If playing with friends (as I do) you can make whatever informal rules you like for force composition, era or anything else you'd like to..
if you play with your group at home, and you decide to play according to the lore, there is no problem
if you play competitive, the lore is not important as you know that there will be mirror matches before you get there (and from the previews the lore-matching teams will be better for that)
and if you group goes with a "bring what you have" style of gaming, you also know this in advance
so it is only about going into a store and playing against random people, and here I have to say that people ignoring the lore because they think it is cooler the other way is the least of the problems that can come up
I bought most of the stuff for Armada, and I'm overall happy with the 4 big factions. I prefer a SW game to feel more or less film-complete as opposed to having it be added to like 40k's endless additions of new things thar were really there all along - honest!
My big disappointment with AMG killing Armada is that the clone wars factions feel unfinished, but would only need a few releases to be in a much more complete state. A second squadron pack for the Republic and iconic ships like the lucrehulk and droid landing crafts would make me happy.
Re shatterpoint, I have zero interest and rue the day AMG were forced to take on FFG's big 3 Star Wars games. But I'm happy that FFG and the original developers were able to make 3 good games with enough content to last for years.
Yeah, to me at least, Armada isn't perfect but we got most of it - and in a lot of ways I prefer it to be this way than to devole into a Warhammer-like endless procession of newly made-up gak - or even an X-Wing-like endless procession of repaints for the sake of selling some new cards & profiles.
I have plenty of fun, I don't know why defenders of bad products always have to fall back on "U DONT KNOW WHAT FUN IS" in a desperate attempt to silence criticism. But I'll stop attacking AMG and their superhero nonsense when they stop publishing superhero nonsense. Until then the hacks that butchered X-Wing and cancelled Armada to make room for this dumpster fire of a game will continue to get honest feedback on their lack of skills and poor quality work.
And yet there you go on other threads, defending GW to the hilt. A company that probably has the worst rules out there. As for "But I'll stop attacking AMG and their superhero nonsense when they stop publishing superhero nonsense", seems odd from a person that seems to love GW and it's fascination with OP hero characters. Sheesh.
Seriously, why are the "GW *is* the H-H-Hobby" types so hateful towards other games. If you don't like them, give them a miss. Is it a fear that some of your fellow GW'ers will leave the cult and find a new game making your purchases less relevant? I really don't get the hatred.
I'm not really there yet myself, but I don't think I'd resist a box that comes with Death Troopers.
We'll have to see how that goes. The latest article makes me kind of hopeful that Galactic Civil War models don't have to be far off. As in AMG shouldn't feel compelled to release Clone Wars only before they move on to that. I mean, it's obviously prudent to talk about both eras in an article about force organization and have it in the core rules right from the start, so there is little reason to think so. But you know, I'd just like to read something into it.
I'm not really there yet myself, but I don't think I'd resist a box that comes with Death Troopers.
We'll have to see how that goes. The latest article makes me kind of hopeful that Galactic Civil War models don't have to be far off. As in AMG shouldn't feel compelled to release Clone Wars only before they move on to that. I mean, it's obviously prudent to talk about both eras in an article about force organization and have it in the core rules right from the start, so there is little reason to think so. But you know, I'd just like to read something into it.
It could be cool to have the game slowly move though the era, but I think at least there is so much in clone wars they may hold off on going head first. Especially if they can fill out legion a bit better as well, take there time to slowly work though it.
I'm not really there yet myself, but I don't think I'd resist a box that comes with Death Troopers.
We'll have to see how that goes. The latest article makes me kind of hopeful that Galactic Civil War models don't have to be far off. As in AMG shouldn't feel compelled to release Clone Wars only before they move on to that. I mean, it's obviously prudent to talk about both eras in an article about force organization and have it in the core rules right from the start, so there is little reason to think so. But you know, I'd just like to read something into it.
It could be cool to have the game slowly move though the era, but I think at least there is so much in clone wars they may hold off on going head first. Especially if they can fill out legion a bit better as well, take there time to slowly work though it.
I feel like it would be better for them to release GCW stuff sooner rather than later, as it opens up the game to a larger audience.
I know that large portions of the Legion community didn't start until the Clone Wars era starter came out, since that was what they grew up with and wanted to play.
And while anecdotal, I really have zero interest in Shatterpoint until GCW minis come out, and I have heard that statement repeated online in other areas. Will be sticking to the new Special Operations game mode for Legion until that point.
I expect GCW to be a big release wave for year 2, similar to how X-Men was used to launch the second year of MCP. Similarly I suspect the wait will be healthy for the game, since it will let the game find its footing before opening it up to the crowd that Vader will bring to the game.
It might also help to balance out the available darksiders. We're getting Maul, Dooku and and Ventress right off the bat. You can throw in Sidious and you're done. Double up with apprentice Maul, maybe bounty hunter Ventress, and you're out of force wielders, really.
Compared to the long list of Jedi that are at least halfway relevant in Clone Wars episodes (Yoda, Obi-Wan, Anakin, Ahsoka, Aayla Secura, Kit Fisto, Ki-Adi Mundi, Mace Windu, Luminara Unduli, Barriss Offee, Shaak Ti, Plo Koon, Even Piell, Adi Gallia) that's almost nothing, and that's before you double up on characters like Obi-Wan as apprentice to Qui-Gonn, get some other potentially notable Jedi like Qui-Gonn, Yaddle and to bridge the gap Depa Bilaba with apprentice Kanan, and so forth. It's like there's ten thousand Jedi in the galaxy or something.
The Empire at least has a ton of Inquisitors to throw into the mix and once you move past force wielding maniacs you'll probably a good bit of variety there as well.
Gimgamgoo wrote: And yet there you go on other threads, defending GW to the hilt. A company that probably has the worst rules out there. As for "But I'll stop attacking AMG and their superhero nonsense when they stop publishing superhero nonsense", seems odd from a person that seems to love GW and it's fascination with OP hero characters. Sheesh.
Seriously, why are the "GW *is* the H-H-Hobby" types so hateful towards other games. If you don't like them, give them a miss. Is it a fear that some of your fellow GW'ers will leave the cult and find a new game making your purchases less relevant? I really don't get the hatred.
You really have some selective vision, I have said plenty of negative things about GW's broken rules and the hilariously incompetent authors who write them. Pointing out the absurdity and entitlement in certain price complaints does not mean I defend GW for everything.
Billicus wrote: What part of Legion doesn't make sense? Have you seen the movies? There's no shortage of large battle scenes with the heroes mixed in.
and what have the "heroes" done during that battles?
even in clone wars the "heroes" focus on commando and "side" projects rather than doing the battle itself and when people are asking to put more heroes into that game and make those stronger so that the focus shifts to Luke fighting Vader rather than troopers fighting each other
if someone wants a game that is all about Luke fighting Vader, Shatterpoint is the better place (no need for a Platoon level game if you want "Herohammer")
Legion battles really aren't that large of scale. They're much closer to Endor than Hoth for example. I've got a list of the GCW main 6 and about 16 random grunts that feels pretty good outside of two main issues:
- It's illegal. The game's FOC doesn't allow for that many heroes.
- It's terrible. Heroes are so tied to their command cards that the system doesn't at all reward running more than 2.
I think that's always been Legion's big limitation. It depends on new NPCs for content in a franchise that is mostly driven by characters. I don't think the issue is that the battles are too big for heroes though, I just think the implementation of heroes into the system is too limited to release very many of them without being redundant. I've got a lot of cool Legion hero models, but realistically I have no incentive to play the vast majority of them.
Azazelx wrote: I stopped buying (and following) X-Wing when FFG Said "please give us hundreds of dollars for new cardboard if you want to keep using your thousands of dollars of toys in the new version of our game". I still play 1st ed with my group and it works fine for us. If you play competitively, or pick up games in stores or tournaments, it's clearly unfortunate if AMG is changing the game again and I'd agree that it likely sucks.
I bought most of the stuff for Armada, and I'm overall happy with the 4 big factions. I prefer a SW game to feel more or less film-complete as opposed to having it be added to like 40k's endless additions of new things thar were really there all along - honest!
It's not just that they changed X-Wing, it's the why and how. AMG came in with pretty much no experience and immediately started making changes. They had a really condescending stream (probably more, but I didn't watch them) where they lectured the community on how we're all having fun the wrong way and they're going to make us play the game AMG wants to play. AMG is salty about having their hero pilot blocked, like a day one newbie? Unlike most newbies AMG owns the game so instead of learning how strategy works they can just nerf the thing that beat them and remove blocking from the game. Maneuver planning is too dependent on predicting collisions and ship placement? Randomly decide which ship moves first after dials are set. People are spending too much time maneuvering for an advantage and not going directly into the center of the table to brawl? Introduce a turn limit and objectives that punish you for not going straight to the brawl. People are using generics instead of AMG's favorite characters? Introduce a new point system where generic ships cost more than superior named pilots so they're de facto banned. Don't like any of AMG's changes? You're just a bitter loser who doesn't understand how fun works, clinging to your WAACTFG game and afraid the fun players might beat you.
As for Armada, I'd be content with it being complete if they finished the game. Armada is 90% of a good game but it really needs a proper update to bring everything up to the same level. There are too many older ships that don't get to use newer mechanics that didn't exist when the original cards were printed and too many workaround upgrades that try to awkwardly add some of those new mechanics at the cost of upgrade slots. But we'll never see that comprehensive update because AMG didn't want anything that isn't a MCP clone.
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kodos wrote: and Vader teaming up with Luke is your big "Lore" problem with this scenario?
not Vader fighting a younger himself?
Um, what? I literally mentioned Vader fighting against Anakin in that example.
But yes, opposing character mismatches is less of a problem than allied character mismatches. There's a limit to what you as a game designer can do if you have a multi-era game, and as much as I hate the prequel content I know people want to see those characters. You can't control what the other player brings but you can prevent players from bringing anti-thematic combinations in their own forces. AMG simply chooses not to, because superheroes teaming up in unlikely combinations is a comic book standard.
I think that's always been Legion's big limitation. It depends on new NPCs for content in a franchise that is mostly driven by characters. I don't think the issue is that the battles are too big for heroes though, I just think the implementation of heroes into the system is too limited to release very many of them without being redundant. I've got a lot of cool Legion hero models, but realistically I have no incentive to play the vast majority of them.
agree
for me, I would really like to play a faction with NPC only and just use no named "heroes"
All of the star wars games, like any licensed game, run into the same brick wall: running out of canon material. It's just not a huge surprise that X-wing, armada, and Legion all started to lose stem when the most iconic stuff was already made.
In a way, this game is response to that, in that the one thing Star Wars has in absolute spades are iconic heroes and villains. The Clone wars era has a very deep bench of characters, even if you only stick with the movies. tack on the shows, and this has more material than Armada or even x-wing.
Polonius wrote: All of the star wars games, like any licensed game, run into the same brick wall: running out of canon material. It's just not a huge surprise that X-wing, armada, and Legion all started to lose stem when the most iconic stuff was already made.
In a way, this game is response to that, in that the one thing Star Wars has in absolute spades are iconic heroes and villains. The Clone wars era has a very deep bench of characters, even if you only stick with the movies. tack on the shows, and this has more material than Armada or even x-wing.
This is a really good point and I'm excited to see what Shatterpoint can bring to the table in the future. I know it's the longest of long shots (but not so long that it's impossible) but I'd love to get some of the Muunilist 10 even if that series is no longer "canon".
There's more good coming out of this than bad. I do feel for true X-Wing and Armada fans (not the saber rattlers) because the content being dripped out for them is very low or non-existent for Armada, but I don't blame AMG for that, I blame Asmodee.
rybackstun wrote: There's more good coming out of this than bad. I do feel for true X-Wing and Armada fans (not the saber rattlers) because the content being dripped out for them is very low or non-existent for Armada, but I don't blame AMG for that, I blame Asmodee.
Why don't you blame AMG for their decisions? If AMG had done literally nothing with X-Wing it would be in a far better place than it is now, the problems since AMG took ownership of it have been entirely the result of AMG's arrogance in deciding that everyone else was having fun the wrong way and they were going to jump right in and start turning it into the game they wanted to play.
X-Wing's big mistake was milking the GCW dry before doing a big shake up. They really needed to start introducing either Clone Wars factions to stretch the content or do a 2nd edition a lot earlier. The second edition changes for my money were excellent, but by that point they were squeezing the last drops of wooden Wookie ship blood out of the stone and had absolutely no new product available for people wanting to keep playing their existing factions.
It's not just that they changed X-Wing, it's the why and how. AMG came in with pretty much no experience and immediately started making changes.
I'm not going to argue with you either way on X-Wing. As I mentioned, I stopped buying their new shiz in the FFG days based on the prices for the 2.0 upgrade kits. That was some rather expensive printed cardboard. Hopefully the game turns into something you can enjoy again. Otherwise, I guess you might be in the same boat (or a parallel boat) to ehere I am - if you have a group who doesn't feel a need to keep up with the latest rules and meta like 40k players, keep playing the edition you enjoy. I know that rando pickups or tournaments, etc aren't something that are an option for me with my extensive collection of 1.0 fleets.
On the card upgrade kit point, I will give AMG credit for releasing their MCP card changes as downloadable/printable PDFs.
As for Armada, I'd be content with it being complete if they finished the game. Armada is 90% of a good game but it really needs a proper update to bring everything up to the same level. There are too many older ships that don't get to use newer mechanics that didn't exist when the original cards were printed and too many workaround upgrades that try to awkwardly add some of those new mechanics at the cost of upgrade slots. But we'll never see that comprehensive update because AMG didn't want anything that isn't a MCP clone.
I don't think getting that last 10% would be a bad thing. Though, I'd tend to put that blame more on Asmodee rather than AMG.
Actually, you've got me thinking there - I've been in a work position where I've had my own work to do and other people's work just dumped on me too many times to hate others for it. This just happened again this Monday when someone resigned and one of my other colleagues and I got the "well, you have to split her work now on top of your own workload" - all while keeping the same timelines and deadlines. work hours and renumeration. I've been working on my own stuff since last August and this new stuff since Monday (well, responsible for it, - I haven't done much besides read the dox in my "spare" time). Where do you think more of my deep knowledge, interest, passion, and effort already is/will go to? Where do you think the higher quality output will be over the next few months?
...and to bring it back to X-Wing and Armada under AMG - what if I decided to get invested in my new extra workload and put more effort and care into it since it's apparently my job now to run the thing, and I go and fix what I percieve are flaws in it and start to turn it into something that I and my other colleagues are happy with? Otherwise I could choose to put minimum effort into it and just concentrate on my own stuff - not really changing anything since I don't have a deep understanding of it, but not gettign into it and improving it a lot since I don't have a deep understanding, and besides, I already have my own job to do aside from someone else's job...
Of course, my organisation could always hire a new person - in that case, you have a situation where they either choose to do very little, or get invested in it and (probably) change it for the "better". Maybe the new hire wants to "put their mark on it" (because that mentality is totally a very real thing in organisations).
Point all being, and to misquite the BBC's famous phrase - "Other perspectives also exist"
But yes, opposing character mismatches is less of a problem than allied character mismatches. There's a limit to what you as a game designer can do if you have a multi-era game, and as much as I hate the prequel content I know people want to see those characters. You can't control what the other player brings but you can prevent players from bringing anti-thematic combinations in their own forces. AMG simply chooses not to, because superheroes teaming up in unlikely combinations is a comic book standard.
I'd suggest that if you wanted to play Shatterpoint (though it appears you have no interest) then you'd be best discussing thematic combinations & limitations with your gaming group and see what consensus you come to. I mean, you can talk about it here and be as angry as you like, but aside from the entertainment and venting provided by this discourse, you're not accomlishing anything else, and certainly not making a change to a game that's about to be released.
rybackstun wrote: There's more good coming out of this than bad. I do feel for true X-Wing and Armada fans (not the saber rattlers) because the content being dripped out for them is very low or non-existent for Armada, but I don't blame AMG for that, I blame Asmodee.
Why don't you blame AMG for their decisions? If AMG had done literally nothing with X-Wing it would be in a far better place than it is now, the problems since AMG took ownership of it have been entirely the result of AMG's arrogance in deciding that everyone else was having fun the wrong way and they were going to jump right in and start turning it into the game they wanted to play.
From everything that I've read and seen, it seems like AMG had no real interest in picking up the 3 games they were given by Asmodee as part of Asmodee trying to prep FFG for a sale or something else leading to them dumping FFG. AMG was working on Shatterpoint before they were tasked with working on FFG's Star Wars games and there may have been rules changes already set to go for X-Wing before AMG were handed the keys.
Is it possible that AMG made the game "worse" as you decree? Yes it is possible. However no one REALLY knows (except those on the inside) what the situation with the FFG stuff was during this period of time.
You seem to really not like AMG, and that's perfectly fine, but you are right on the boarder of unhealthy obsession/vendetta against a company that's just making games.
Even IF AMG tuned the game this way completely of their own volition, you have this lovely opportunity to build a community that plays the game house-ruled to the EXACT specifications that you so desperately desire, and that's a wonderful situation to be in. YOU have the control and can safely ignore AMG as a whole. The ball is clearly in your court and it would probably serve everyone better if you just focused on that and left the forums alone and safe from Anti-AMG sentiment.
rybackstun wrote: The ball is clearly in your court and it would probably serve everyone better if you just focused on that and left the forums alone and safe from Anti-AMG sentiment.
This is not a pro-AMG echo chamber and "keep the forums safe from anti-AMG sentiment" is not even close to something I care about. If AMG posts nonsense I will continue to criticize them for it.
However no one REALLY knows (except those on the inside) what the situation with the FFG stuff was during this period of time.
We know because AMG made public statements that the changes were their own work, defended those changes, and explained how they were necessary because we were all having fun the wrong way.
As much as I empathise with someone who loved a game losing support for their game, arguing that Shatterpoint is any more lore-shatteringly nonsensical than any of the FFG era SW games seems incorrect.
It was in the FFG era that we got cross-era games (and original-sequel mixing within one side [though that is reflective of Disney's indecision about what to do with the sequels]) in X-Wing, the FFG era that we got Legion, which is both way more special character oriented than a platoon+ game should have been and allowed cross-era games, the FFG era in which Armada - less Armada and more Flotilla - got cross-era games also replete with named characters and ships.
Now, it obviously sells for Star Wars, both in the Lucas age and the Disney age, to plaster the family drama of the skywalker-palpatine clans onto every piece of merch (consider the horror when Last Jedi suggested that MAYBE someone outside these Very Special Magic People could do important things), so my preferences are clearly in the minority.
With all that being said, the answer clearly seems to be to talk to my friends and play something else. Obviously that's not the same as the evidently thriving XW1E scene, and it seems SWL has that too, but I would have thought Armada players probably knew how to talk to regular opponents rather than relying on anonymous pickup games, given the relative paucity of Armada players (in my experience, of course - there's probably areas where it was also hopping).
The long and the short of it is that Shatterpoint isn't particularly interesting to me, and I was hoping we'd see more generic commanders for Legion, but - given Legion ALREADY varied in its scale - some squinting will probably mean I pick up a few Shatterpoint models to go with my Legion models that I'll use in a whole variety miniature agnostic scifi games.
AMG doesn't, it seems to me, warrant any particular hostility over Asmodee's investors more generally, nor does it deserve any particular defence either - of course a world in which FFG continued to keep its designers and produce stuff for those three games would have been cool for people who liked those games as they were, but there were only ever going to be two alternatives: either the games would be supported, or not. If one feels the games as they are now are so different from the FFG era games that they're not supported, it's no different than the world in which they just ceased to exist.
rybackstun wrote: There's more good coming out of this than bad. I do feel for true X-Wing and Armada fans (not the saber rattlers) because the content being dripped out for them is very low or non-existent for Armada, but I don't blame AMG for that, I blame Asmodee.
Why don't you blame AMG for their decisions? If AMG had done literally nothing with X-Wing it would be in a far better place than it is now, the problems since AMG took ownership of it have been entirely the result of AMG's arrogance in deciding that everyone else was having fun the wrong way and they were going to jump right in and start turning it into the game they wanted to play.
How long have you been in the miniatures game hobby?
Editions of games change. Constantly. That churn is how companies can keep existing players engaged and provide a leveling mechanism for new players to jump into a game.
Here's a quick summary of edition changes across a few games. This is all normal. Lots of people hate the changes between editions and others love it and others don't care. This is nothing new and this is always the path forward for miniatures games. New editions or death. (except Battletech)
bbb wrote: How long have you been in the miniatures game hobby?
Long enough to understand the difference between "all edition changes are bad" and "this particular edition change was bad". So, probably longer than you.
bbb wrote: How long have you been in the miniatures game hobby?
Long enough to understand the difference between "all edition changes are bad" and "this particular edition change was bad". So, probably longer than you.
Ah! A fellow 30+ years deep in the hobby grognard! Well, all the edition changes do take their toll. But at least we always have the option to play the version of the rules that were the best. (Based on objective fact, which always lines up with our opinions. What are the odds!?)
Hey, back to Shatterpoint. Anyone doing the pre-order at your local store? I'm tempted to, but I'm still paying off some purchases I made at the end of the year. So many games, so little money.
Hey, back to Shatterpoint. Anyone doing the pre-order at your local store? I'm tempted to, but I'm still paying off some purchases I made at the end of the year. So many games, so little money.
I'm very much considering the "all-in bundle", though I'm also looking at that Batman KS that adds solo and co-op play and possibly a PS5, so all that crap adds up - especially in a compressed timeframe...
Unless something happens between now and then, I will be trying to pick up a copy for myself and a copy for group play.
Then lots of terrain as well to add to my sci fi table.
Geifer wrote: It might also help to balance out the available darksiders. We're getting Maul, Dooku and and Ventress right off the bat. You can throw in Sidious and you're done. Double up with apprentice Maul, maybe bounty hunter Ventress, and you're out of force wielders, really.
There's also Savage Opress and the Nightsisters in general if we're looking for more Dark-Sidey affiliated force users in the CW era. Pong Krell maybe? I think with the Clone Wars period, even if they're greatly outnumbered in terms of force users, the Separatists and co. do have a much wider range of Bounty Hunters which could be seen as a soft counter to Jedi. Plus Grevious who's arguably a hard counter to Jedi, maybe Pre-Visla with the Darksaber.
They might be comparatively limited on force users but there's plenty of variety and potentially powerful characters elsewhere.
I forgot about Savage. Oops. The odd bounty hunter hero is probably a good call, but I'm not sure in general how power levels will be determined. I can easily see Cad Bane and Pre Viszla being hero level, and we know for sure about Griebous. It's just that a badass like Bo-Katan getting the sidekick slot suggests to me that heroic non-force users will have a hard time earning a top spot. I'm happy to be proven wrong, of course, but for the time being it looks like it's Force users or bust with only a select few that also wield light sabers or have matching gizmos mingling in.
It's not just that they changed X-Wing, it's the why and how. AMG came in with pretty much no experience and immediately started making changes. They had a really condescending stream (probably more, but I didn't watch them) where they lectured the community on how we're all having fun the wrong way and they're going to make us play the game AMG wants to play. AMG is salty about having their hero pilot blocked, like a day one newbie? Unlike most newbies AMG owns the game so instead of learning how strategy works they can just nerf the thing that beat them and remove blocking from the game. Maneuver planning is too dependent on predicting collisions and ship placement? Randomly decide which ship moves first after dials are set. People are spending too much time maneuvering for an advantage and not going directly into the center of the table to brawl? Introduce a turn limit and objectives that punish you for not going straight to the brawl. People are using generics instead of AMG's favorite characters? Introduce a new point system where generic ships cost more than superior named pilots so they're de facto banned. Don't like any of AMG's changes? You're just a bitter loser who doesn't understand how fun works, clinging to your WAACTFG game and afraid the fun players might beat you.
Are these just tournament rules or did they come out with another official core rulebook with a starter to replace the 2.0 one? I checked out with the second edition when I'd have to spend $100 to update my existing collection for the new edition.
kodos wrote: No new Starter Set, still the same 2.0 Starter and upgrade sets
points were released independent anyway and the core rules changes are released as updated pdf (same as with FFG before)
That's disappointing regardless but I appreciate the clarification. One of the things I liked about the original X-wing was the considerable depth of tactics becoming proficient in positioning gave you and hearing that it may be gone in the latest version is disappointing. I applauded the focus on the core ships that FFG was touting in press releases/blog posts in 2.0 over upgrade gimmicks but the price of the sidegrade to 2.0 for my entire collection (while at the same time my local xwing scene died down in the year prior) meant that I didn't ever try it out to see if it was just spin or actually the case. Hearing that it's formally removed to just furball in the center is disheartening.
The main thing AMG did was add scenario play which just doesn't really work for X-Wing very well. If you ignore them I don't really find any issues with the AMG changes. I certainly don't feel it changes the importance of positioning in the game which I found were better all around in the 2.0 version where there was less post movement positioning options to abuse.
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Geifer wrote: I forgot about Savage. Oops. The odd bounty hunter hero is probably a good call, but I'm not sure in general how power levels will be determined. I can easily see Cad Bane and Pre Viszla being hero level, and we know for sure about Griebous. It's just that a badass like Bo-Katan getting the sidekick slot suggests to me that heroic non-force users will have a hard time earning a top spot. I'm happy to be proven wrong, of course, but for the time being it looks like it's Force users or bust with only a select few that also wield light sabers or have matching gizmos mingling in.
We'll also probably get a TPM era Maul, since this one is specifically robo legs from the Siege of Mandalore.
Expecting this game to be a hit locally. MCP is probably the most regularly played game rivaled only by 40k and the Star Wars group regularly cycles through Armada/X-Wing/Legion. Thus far both groups are very interested.
It's actually very interesting to set up a best 2 of 3 within the game being played, but I like it. Very tug-of-war like some other decent Star Wars games!
Upon the initial info about this game I had more or less written it off, but as more information comes out I am becoming more intrigued about it, especially as a lot of people at my LGS have gotten pretty excited about it.
I’m pretty “meh” on the Clone Wars (especially the good guy factions), so hopefully they put out some GCW stuff pretty quickly. I’d love to have a Han/Chewy/Rebel Commando team or a Gideon/Dark Trooper/Death Troopers team.
Sabotage! wrote: Upon the initial info about this game I had more or less written it off, but as more information comes out I am becoming more intrigued about it, especially as a lot of people at my LGS have gotten pretty excited about it.
I’m pretty “meh” on the Clone Wars (especially the good guy factions), so hopefully they put out some GCW stuff pretty quickly. I’d love to have a Han/Chewy/Rebel Commando team or a Gideon/Dark Trooper/Death Troopers team.
If they take the same-ish pace they did with MCP, you'll see GCW next year.
But I think they know people want GCW factions sooner rather than later, so maybe a Holiday release for at least one Rebel and one Empire Squad (or two each).
Sabotage! wrote: Upon the initial info about this game I had more or less written it off, but as more information comes out I am becoming more intrigued about it, especially as a lot of people at my LGS have gotten pretty excited about it.
I’m pretty “meh” on the Clone Wars (especially the good guy factions), so hopefully they put out some GCW stuff pretty quickly. I’d love to have a Han/Chewy/Rebel Commando team or a Gideon/Dark Trooper/Death Troopers team.
If they take the same-ish pace they did with MCP, you'll see GCW next year.
But I think they know people want GCW factions sooner rather than later, so maybe a Holiday release for at least one Rebel and one Empire Squad (or two each).
I could live with that. It's not like I have about 200 miniatures laying around that need paint or anything.
Is there a confirmation on exactly what terrain is included in the core set? Especially compared to one of the terrain sets. Wondering if it might work out better to purchase two core sets over getting extra dice, rulers and a terrain pack...
MCP works out to only cost a small amount extra to buy a second core set over the dice, rulers and NYC terrain pack, though you only get one of the small building buying a second core, but you do get a second set of the models for alt costumes and conversion parts...
Azazelx wrote: Is there a confirmation on exactly what terrain is included in the core set? Especially compared to one of the terrain sets. Wondering if it might work out better to purchase two core sets over getting extra dice, rulers and a terrain pack...
MCP works out to only cost a small amount extra to buy a second core set over the dice, rulers and NYC terrain pack, though you only get one of the small building buying a second core, but you do get a second set of the models for alt costumes and conversion parts...
The core set terrain looks like it contains similar contents to the High Ground terrain pack which with extra dice and movement tools comes to $105 vs the Core Set's $165. In terms of content, the core set seems to contain slightly more. It's listed as 23 pieces of terrain vs the High Ground's 20, but its kind of hard to tell what that really means, since each crate is being treated as a separate piece of terrain. I see similar numbers of ladders and walkways though.
Not a ton of specifrics unfortunately and the announcement of random activation order is going to be.... controversial, to say the least. I'll be curious to see how it really works out though, as with only 7 activations in the deck the reserve mechanic provides a decent amount of control.
NH Gunsmith wrote: Wait. So Shatterpoint is going to use movement tools and range tools, but Special Operations for Legion uses a tape measure for weapon ranges? Odd.
Shatterpoint has always been AMG's take on Star Wars, built loosely on their M:CP model (and has been in development since before they got handed Asmodee's other SW content). Spec-Ops feels like a side project someone was working on in their downtime between projects or on their lunch breaks or something but has escalated into something more substantive (and it does look excellent). Might explain why it uses standardized measurements though it does indeed feel like a slight outlier. Possibly it's to add more granularity to the available weapons profiles; something that's not necessarily as desirable in Legion (where the streamlining helps move games along quicker) or Shatterpoint (which is seemingly supposed to be a fast paced hero-brawl).
schoon wrote: Hmmm. Not entirely sure how I feel about semi-random activation. The wild card and reserve rules balance that a bit.
Not dead set against. We'll have to see the rest of the rules.
Yeah, the small deck size and two significant control mechanisms (before taking into account character abilities) makes it a lot more palatable. It also makes the highly restrictive list building make a lot more sense.
LunarSol wrote: Yeah, the small deck size and two significant control mechanisms (before taking into account character abilities) makes it a lot more palatable. It also makes the highly restrictive list building make a lot more sense.
I've got the feeling that commanders might also be able to influence this mechanic somehow.
LunarSol wrote: Yeah, the small deck size and two significant control mechanisms (before taking into account character abilities) makes it a lot more palatable. It also makes the highly restrictive list building make a lot more sense.
I've got the feeling that commanders might also be able to influence this mechanic somehow.
I think the support slot is really likely to see this. Rex, Cody, and the pair of Super Tactical Droids feel very well suited to this role out of the characters we've seen so far.
More interesting data for the game. I like the idea that as a unit takes damage it becomes harder for them to use their abilities.
Those cards at the end are spicy.
One thing I am worried about tho is Primary units being limited to Force Users only. I know they've mentioned that not all characters with Force Points will be Jedi/Sith, but everything shown so far looks like Primaries will always be big named force using characters. Which is fine for people who like stuff like that, but isn't great for people who are into gruntlines or specific non-force sensitive characters.
Neat rules. Characters have a lot of health. I've been trying to decipher the Stance cards and while they largely make sense and are potentially quite exciting, I'm not sure how the chart at the bottom works.
More interesting data for the game. I like the idea that as a unit takes damage it becomes harder for them to use their abilities.
Those cards at the end are spicy.
One thing I am worried about tho is Primary units being limited to Force Users only. I know they've mentioned that not all characters with Force Points will be Jedi/Sith, but everything shown so far looks like Primaries will always be big named force using characters. Which is fine for people who like stuff like that, but isn't great for people who are into gruntlines or specific non-force sensitive characters.
We've already seen Grievous is going to be in the game and he's explicitly not a Force user. He's also the kind of character you don't make a non-Commander. Most characters in the OT aren't Force users either, so there will be plenty of non-Force options eventually.
More interesting data for the game. I like the idea that as a unit takes damage it becomes harder for them to use their abilities.
Those cards at the end are spicy.
One thing I am worried about tho is Primary units being limited to Force Users only. I know they've mentioned that not all characters with Force Points will be Jedi/Sith, but everything shown so far looks like Primaries will always be big named force using characters. Which is fine for people who like stuff like that, but isn't great for people who are into gruntlines or specific non-force sensitive characters.
I don't think gruntlines are really going to be a thing in this game; it's explicitly focused on the big names brawling with troopers/droids as backup. CIS are probably going to be the faction that would feed most into any potential 'numerical advantage' playstyle and even then we've seen that consists of multiple droids on a single base.
Agree that it shouldn't be limited to just Force-Users as Primaries.
More interesting data for the game. I like the idea that as a unit takes damage it becomes harder for them to use their abilities.
Those cards at the end are spicy.
One thing I am worried about tho is Primary units being limited to Force Users only. I know they've mentioned that not all characters with Force Points will be Jedi/Sith, but everything shown so far looks like Primaries will always be big named force using characters. Which is fine for people who like stuff like that, but isn't great for people who are into gruntlines or specific non-force sensitive characters.
We've already seen Grievous is going to be in the game and he's explicitly not a Force user. He's also the kind of character you don't make a non-Commander. Most characters in the OT aren't Force users either, so there will be plenty of non-Force options eventually.
Grevious is definitely the commander in that package. The box sets are all viable squads so its him or Super Tactical Droid Kraken and well.... obviously its Grevious.
Looks really promising that they are getting to the GCW so quickly.
Love to see the contents of the Han and Iden Versio pack. Iden I imagine will be Inferno Squad and I'm guessing Han will be Chewie and some rebel commandos?
I'm guessing Mando will be with Greef Karga and Cara Dune or Bill Burr's character.
I'm also guessing Vader is going to be pretty powerful as he gets a Storm trooper Sergeant as his support.
Really hoping we get a Andor/K2SO pack and a Director Krennic/Death Troopers pack soon.
I was kind of "meh" on this when first announced but I'm getting more and more excited about it.
Shame that they're the ones from Obi-Wan rather than the ones from Rebels.
Ghost Crew are cool, as is CW-era Ahsoka and Plo Koon.
Given that there's still Seventh Sister, Ninth Sister, and Eighth Brother, we could definitely see another Inquisitor Squad down the line
Billicus wrote: If by "tank the game" you mean "don't buy it because I already have star wars games I'd rather play than this" then I'm guilty as charged I guess
No, that's perfectly fine and your right as a consumer. I'm totally fine if people don't want to engage with the game if they have another game they like better, in fact I'd prefer that.
Tanking the game is intentionally hindering the growth of the community by doing everything they can to slam the game with zero intention of ever playing it and preventing other players from enjoying or interacting with the game. Sabotage effectively.
Not saying you are guilty of this, but there definitely are people who are trying to Sabotage the game as much as they can because they are upset and think (incorrectly) that it will take away from the game they already have.
I'm not really there yet myself, but I don't think I'd resist a box that comes with Death Troopers.
We'll have to see how that goes. The latest article makes me kind of hopeful that Galactic Civil War models don't have to be far off. As in AMG shouldn't feel compelled to release Clone Wars only before they move on to that. I mean, it's obviously prudent to talk about both eras in an article about force organization and have it in the core rules right from the start, so there is little reason to think so. But you know, I'd just like to read something into it.
It could be cool to have the game slowly move though the era, but I think at least there is so much in clone wars they may hold off on going head first. Especially if they can fill out legion a bit better as well, take there time to slowly work though it.
I feel like it would be better for them to release GCW stuff sooner rather than later, as it opens up the game to a larger audience.
I know that large portions of the Legion community didn't start until the Clone Wars era starter came out, since that was what they grew up with and wanted to play.
And while anecdotal, I really have zero interest in Shatterpoint until GCW minis come out, and I have heard that statement repeated online in other areas. Will be sticking to the new Special Operations game mode for Legion until that point.
Quoting myself because uhhh well, they called my bluff. Will be buying the Vader and Iden squads when they come out.
