Damn you for making me give Discourse Minis a click.
To be fair she thinks any piece of news or new release signals the imminent demise of GW or a sign they're doing something evil.
Not sure a 5.8% increase in trade prices is going to CRUSH local games stores, but it will almost certainly reduce the discounts online retailers can provide, so get your orders in before the 19th.
To save everyone about 15 minutes of rather pointless ranting, the meat of the issue is:
Effective December 19th, GW raises retailer trade prices by 5,8% for a lot of products, including all plastic boxed sets and paints, w/o changing the RRPs of said products, thus reducing retailers margins.
Charax wrote: Damn you for making me give Discourse Minis a click.
To be fair she thinks any piece of news or new release signals the imminent demise of GW or a sign they're doing something evil.
Not sure a 5.8% increase in trade prices is going to CRUSH local games stores, but it will almost certainly reduce the discounts online retailers can provide, so get your orders in before the 19th.
Charax wrote: Not sure a 5.8% increase in trade prices is going to CRUSH local games stores
Apparently she lives in an alternate world where CCGs aren't the dominant product, with most stores only carrying GW stuff because they hope you'll buy some MTG packs when you come in for 40k? Just guessing though, I'm not going to sit through a "let me talk at the camera for ten times longer than necessary because video gives more ad revenue than a concise article" video to find out.
Gee, it's almost like you knew people wouldn't lend credence to the source by hiding it as a URL dump rather than actually doing any effort at all in making the OP.
She's the bizarro Earth version of those movie critic channels whose entire niche is ranting against female characters.
GW is essentially forcing stores to reduce their discounts, from 20% to 15% for example, making them look greedy to the unwary as they "raise prices" when GW didn't, and overall less appealing compared to buying direct. It's an ultra gakky move.
GW should be more concerned in actually having stock of their new releases.
Waiting on preorders of some sold out from day1 Votann kits for nearly one month now so yeah.
Gee, it's almost like you knew people wouldn't lend credence to the source by hiding it as a URL dump rather than actually doing any effort at all in making the OP.
Oh hey, i think i argued the toss with her on FB about this. Hyper aggressive if you don't agree with her. When she was called out by about 6 other people, she deleted all her replies. Twas' funny.
Charax wrote: Not sure a 5.8% increase in trade prices is going to CRUSH local games stores
Apparently she lives in an alternate world where CCGs aren't the dominant product, with most stores only carrying GW stuff because they hope you'll buy some MTG packs when you come in for 40k? Just guessing though, I'm not going to sit through a "let me talk at the camera for ten times longer than necessary because video gives more ad revenue than a concise article" video to find out.
MtG packs are crap profit for stores. They make a pittance on selling them. The only real money is for single card sales.
Dudeface wrote: B&C: statements and videos from the stores affected, thread closed due to getting too whiney.
Dakka: 4 days late to the part with news from some YouTube gremlin and spikey bits.
Great effort here.
Yeah, I was wondering why it was taking so long for anyone on Dakka to catch on to this. But B&C locking their thread because it wasn't "positive enough" doesn't look much better on them.
Whatever you think of capitalism, company chooses to pass on rising production costs, is not a shocker. It’s not crime. It’s just…the cost of doing business.
We don’t need to endorse it. We don’t need to agree with it.
But at the end of the day, we do need to accept it, however bitter the taste.
Real life example from my real life? Last financial year, despite the place where I work exceeding target? No pay rise. This year? Doing that again to a record degree despite a lower employee headcount? 2% payrises.
Given U.K. inflation is well….at least 10%? That’s two real terms pay cuts for me, despite my best being in excess of merely adequate.
Whatever you think of capitalism, company chooses to pass on rising production costs, is not a shocker. It’s not crime. It’s just…the cost of doing business.
We don’t need to endorse it. We don’t need to agree with it.
But at the end of the day, we do need to accept it, however bitter the taste.
Real life example from my real life? Last financial year, despite the place where I work exceeding target? No pay rise. This year? Doing that again to a record degree despite a lower employee headcount? 2% payrises.
Given U.K. inflation is well….at least 10%? That’s two real terms pay cuts for me, despite my best being in excess of merely adequate.
Get. Angry. At. The. Right. Thing.
Read. What. They're. Actually. Doing.
They're raising prices at independent stores, but not at their own stores.
There’s no legal obligation to sell at RRP. Most FLGS don’t anyway. They can adapt their prices and still be cheaper than GW, albeit potentially at lower margin depending on how they price.
Whatever you think of capitalism, company chooses to pass on rising production costs, is not a shocker. It’s not crime. It’s just…the cost of doing business.
We don’t need to endorse it. We don’t need to agree with it.
But at the end of the day, we do need to accept it, however bitter the taste.
Real life example from my real life? Last financial year, despite the place where I work exceeding target? No pay rise. This year? Doing that again to a record degree despite a lower employee headcount? 2% payrises.
Given U.K. inflation is well….at least 10%? That’s two real terms pay cuts for me, despite my best being in excess of merely adequate.
Get. Angry. At. The. Right. Thing.
Raising the prices of their stuff... but only to the retailers, not to the RRP, is not a great look. And it's something that goes counter with the usual practices of... everyone, really.
Not raising the RRP is the interesting part, here. It basically mean the retailes can't really put the prices at a level where they'd get their usual cut, so they basically will earn less for each sell (and, in the UK, selling over RRP is actually a criminal offence). While GW will be doing the same... but being manufacturers, they will be on an entirely different situation.
But they are big, so Vader away, I guess, and pray they don't alter the deal further.
On principle I refuse to watch Discourse videos for similar reasons I do not watch Tucker Carlson.
They're raising prices at independent stores, but not at their own stores.
Probably because they are unhappy Independent Retailers are giving discounts(or whatever is happening in the UK is biting them in the ass). In the end what matters is the wallet. If people buy less then GW will get less. We'll see in the future if they reverse the decision or not based on that.
and, in the UK, selling over RRP is actually a criminal offence
I am curious if this law applies anywhere else. My FLGS will just raise prices if GW raises price of doing business with them.
They're raising prices at independent stores, but not at their own stores.
They're lowering the trade discount. There's no actual price rise involved--just a shrinking of margins for trades...which may or may not be region specific? Unclear on that part myself from the screenshots shown, as they all have listed a percentage rather than currency.
I would not be shocked if some of it has to do with the way some trades had been overordering bigger boxed sets, then taking to online venting about GW when their version of Stockhammer didn't pan out and they either: A) Didn't get sent enough. B) Got sent the amount they wanted, then it just sat on shelves.
They're raising prices at independent stores, but not at their own stores.
They're raising costs to independent stores, not necessarily prices.
Right now most UK 3rd party stores have a range of different choices between 10 and 25% discount to customers, and buy at just under 55% RRP. That will change to ~60% from the end of the year. Individual stores have different options to handle the increase depending on how they currently operate.
Some may reduce the discount to customers, with 25 or 20% off now becoming rare.
Others might decide to remove or increase their threshold for free shipping and keep the discount as-is.
Some stores can alter their loyalty/points schemes in various ways, giving the higher discounts to repeat customers.
Others may just absorb the increase in the hope that offering the best discount increases their overall sales.
It'll be interesting to see how each retailer responds.
Whatever you think of capitalism, company chooses to pass on rising production costs, is not a shocker. It’s not crime. It’s just…the cost of doing business.
We don’t need to endorse it. We don’t need to agree with it.
But at the end of the day, we do need to accept it, however bitter the taste.
Real life example from my real life? Last financial year, despite the place where I work exceeding target? No pay rise. This year? Doing that again to a record degree despite a lower employee headcount? 2% payrises.
Given U.K. inflation is well….at least 10%? That’s two real terms pay cuts for me, despite my best being in excess of merely adequate.
Get. Angry. At. The. Right. Thing.
Read. What. They're. Actually. Doing.
They're raising prices at independent stores, but not at their own stores.
They’re raising the Wholesale Price. A price their own stores don’t pay as a direct result of their frankly unique/bizarre model of sole ownership with no franchising.
The alternative is they put all prices, y’know, the ones you and I and everyone ends up paying, up by the same amount.
We’re on the hook for it regardless. Because it’s sucks to be the end consumer. But GW have simply put the ball in the Indie court. Likely reducing overall discount percentiles.
But….and this is for the hardest of understanding. If I buy my stock from GW? That is a set cost to me, and a set profit margin to them. If I then sell it at, for reasons of drama, a mere 0.5% profit margin? GW still got theirs and don’t give much of a feth what I price it at. I could even sell it at a massive loss - GW still got theirs.
and, in the UK, selling over RRP is actually a criminal offence
pretty sure it is not. A seller can sell at whatever price they want. It is a 'recommended' price not a maximum enforceable price.
There's some rules around products with prices printed on them, although I think that only applies so log as you don't cover them up with the new price (so you are not misleading a consumer).
and, in the UK, selling over RRP is actually a criminal offence
pretty sure it is not. A seller can sell at whatever price they want. It is a 'recommended' price not a maximum enforceable price.
There's some rules around products with prices printed on them, although I think that only applies so log as you don't cover them up with the new price (so you are not misleading a consumer).
Tony Quigley, Head of Trading Standards at Birmingham City Council, said: “Trading Standards is receiving a high volume of calls about businesses charging inflated prices and ‘dual pricing’. Whilst traders can charge what they want for items that are not price marked except by themselves, it is a criminal offence to charge a higher price for products that are clearly marked with a visible lower price
RRP would be that "visibly lower price", and retailers certainly don't price that themselves.
But I don't really know, maybe you're right and it's printed prices. A while back the blisters and boxes had a price bracket code, but even that would not be a "marked price" I guess?
That said, I don't exactly see retailers asking for prices over GW's RRP either way. So they'll suck up the cost or reduce their discounts, if they have. Good for GW either way, I'm sure.
and, in the UK, selling over RRP is actually a criminal offence
pretty sure it is not. A seller can sell at whatever price they want. It is a 'recommended' price not a maximum enforceable price.
There's some rules around products with prices printed on them, although I think that only applies so log as you don't cover them up with the new price (so you are not misleading a consumer).
It is and it isn’t. Kind of. Ish. It depends.
If you as shop owner wish to sell a can of Coca Cola for £20? There’s nothing beyond Market Forces preventing that.
But. If the same can of Coca Cola has a printed on the can promotional price of, say…39p? You selling it for higher is illegal.
(and, in the UK, selling over RRP is actually a criminal offence).
This is not true – RRP is recommended resale price and retailers can sell at, above or below that price. In fact, a manufacturer attempting to enforce RRP amongst retailers they supply may be guilty of resale price maintenance, which is the part of the whole arrangement that would be prohibited. RRP is effectively a compromise – it tells everyone what the manufacturer thinks the product should cost; retailers then price it according to supply, demand, the price they can get from the manufacturer, their own overheads, and so on.
EDIT: Sorry, hadn't refreshed the thread in a little while – got distracted while reading earlier posts – and I see others beat me to it.
Gadzilla666 wrote: Ummm.....do gw minis have their prices printed on the box in the UK? Because they don't over here, and I had assumed that the boxes were the same.
I just heard from Northen Exile (former GW shop manager) that the increase on the independent side might be a response to the collapse of GW Australia where prices finally reached the limit. So if they cannot raise prices as usual to customers, GW will chisel a the FLGS earnings.
What may happen here is those independent online retailers who decide to keep a 25% or a 20% discount will just get a huge chunk of the sales.
As people will move from their old faithfuls if it’s a 5% difference.
I’d imagine 15% will soon become the standard discount most places.
I will not watch the video as I really don’t like the channel. But assume any random points have been covered here, but the main takeaway is the photo and the info posted after, really should have that in the initial post..
They are using the wrong strategy to make bank in a recession.
During Covid they could rely on increased sales to the locked down, even though people had less money.
Now people have less money but can go about their daily lives, so a larger percentage of the customer base will be wanting to do other things and have to make sacrifices. As GW is an expensive hobby a lot of people will be choosing to make sacrifices amongst their plastic crack habit.
Yes, yes, you have heard this before. But I am not predicting doom and gloom for GW, only that they will have to be satisfied with less.
GW acknowledge the problem by not raising their own prices, and gaining profits indirectly by cutting into the margins of other sellers. Its a dick move but legal, and they believe that pissing off their third party retailers is the path of least resistance.
The actual answer is to rebox. plastic crack is very very cheap and GW can afford to sell larger boxsets at more reasonable prices. They learned this work when they brought in the start collecting boxes and made them good deals at reasonable prices. Slowly they have turned on the greed. GW bargain boxes are NOT loss leaders, but big profit makers. The plastic in a boxset costs a few pence, dopubling the number of sprues adds only a few pence more, the short addition to the price is almost all profit because these kits will sell.
Gw also need to learn from other manufacturers and sell more paint sets, they do do a pair of start sets, with a reasonable, for them, pricetag, but they could do far more and sell sets like Army Painter and Vallejo do. The increase in raw volume makes up for the reduction of individual itemised profit.
I do believe GW could end up with increased long and short term profitability by being less greedy. Lowered prices on a per item basis combine with larger boxsets of both models and accessories would boost sales far and above any additional itemised costs.
Keeping the range elite doesn't work for them. For several reasons:
- GW relies on new teen customers, whose parents frankly can less afford to buy into the hobby.
- There is no exclusivity bar a few special edition miniatures.
- GW are innovators, it is one of their core competencies. If they lower prices and increase box sizes they make less income per product line to customer, but that matters less as they do not have a static line, They are always adding more factions. So the principle reason for parsing out sales, that of customer termination at end of purchase cycle does not apply as there will be a constant temptation to start a new purchase cycle (i.e army).
GW can easily dig themselves out of the retail hole they are in, but are too pig headed to try, and cant see beyond price hikes as a catch all.
Make no mistake, this is a price hike, its just handled differently.
The decades have shown that for every person priced out of GW's products, two people are willing to pick up their slack and buy more stuff for higher prices.
Angry man rants at screenshot of an email for 11 minutes is one hell of a USP Northern Exile...bit too niche for me.
The sad thing is I am shocked that GW have not started this price increase to FLGS's earlier. Will the 5% odd change backfire? Time will tell. It may drive some people away, it may turn more towards 3d printing...but in a time of rising prices on just about everything this is bad news for hobbyists.
ListenToMeWarriors wrote: Angry man rants at screenshot of an email for 11 minutes is one hell of a USP Northern Exile...bit too niche for me.
The sad thing is I am shocked that GW have not started this price increase to FLGS's earlier. Will the 5% odd change backfire? Time will tell. It may drive some people away, it may turn more towards 3d printing...but in a time of rising prices on just about everything this is bad news for hobbyists.
Sure, because GWnever has raised prices except in "times of rising prices" globally. They've been so restrained that this comes as a shock. </s>
Hello Albertorious, not sure what your problem is with me or what you think I have said? Not sure where I said they have never raised prices in times of financial prosperity? That I said I was shocked they had not done it earlier proves your point that you think I was denying. But this is DakkaDakka where every post must be jumped upon by "akchtually" posters whose whole existence seems to rest on validating their petty little lives by jumping on people on the Internet. But you take your anger and run with it Alby, enjoy your day.
People seem to be assuming that GW's own margins aren't already being squeezed. If GW's costs are increasing (very likely) and they aren't raising prices, then their own margin is already being hit. Whether that's more or less than the 5.8% rise in trade prices they've passed on to retailers none of us would know, but it doesn't follow that just because GW raised trade prices by 5.8% without raising RRP that they're simply netting 5.8% more profit at the expense of independent retailers. They may well have been sucking up those kinds of cost increases in their own supply chain already.
Before people pile on, this isn't a blanket defence. Games Workshop products are expensive; they make lots of pricing decisions that I think are strange, misguided or objectionable – but raising prices to retailers when your own costs are likely going up considerably really isn't much evidence of a strategy to hammer independent stores or hit internet discounters or whatever.
Greenfield wrote: People seem to be assuming that GW's own margins aren't already being squeezed. If GW's costs are increasing (very likely) and they aren't raising prices, then their own margin is already being hit. Whether that's more or less than the 5.8% rise in trade prices they've passed on to retailers none of us would know, but it doesn't follow that just because GW raised trade prices by 5.8% without raising RRP that they're simply netting 5.8% more profit at the expense of independent retailers. They may well have been sucking up those kinds of cost increases in their own supply chain already.
Before people pile on, this isn't a blanket defence. Games Workshop products are expensive; they make lots of pricing decisions that I think are strange, misguided or objectionable – but raising prices to retailers when your own costs are likely going up considerably really isn't much evidence of a strategy to hammer independent stores or hit internet discounters or whatever.
It's more that we know their margins on the stuff they make tends to be quite large, and that they've had record earnings for several years on a row. They could suck up a reduction in margins without having losses, just less earnings. They chose not to do that.
We also know that many, if not most FLGS, run at razor thin margins.
There's this documentary you should check out called 'Mad Max'. It's a sort of living documentary that gets updated every so often, so it's worth looking for the latest iteration.
Arbitrator wrote: The decades have shown that for every person priced out of GW's products, two people are willing to pick up their slack and buy more stuff for higher prices.
Somewhat luckily this isn't actually true, as the decline in the latter years of Kirby shows. GW can and has gone too far for too many customers before, and they are not immune to it happening again.
They are however reasonably adept at getting back up again and they're generally boiling the frog slowly, so there is little chance of a quick and significant customer exodus that would get them in trouble overnight.
But they do have momentum and a generally loyal customer base, which helps immensely. And, as we are so fond of saying, they also have a Facebook page. So right now they are in an unreasonably good position that they are all to willing to exploit. They're still riding the high of the pandemic and try to keep their high profits up for as long as the market will bear it. The wholesale price increase isn't the first measure in this and it won't be the last.
Arbitrator wrote: The decades have shown that for every person priced out of GW's products, two people are willing to pick up their slack and buy more stuff for higher prices.
Big spenders are usually whales and people with no impulse control.
H.B.M.C. wrote: But guys, GW have changed! They have a Facebook page and everything!
They make jokes too about lore!
And charge $50 for them! Sometimes they have cool pictures in them!
And the pictures never look exactly like the stock models they put together either!
I tell you it´s all a scam.
Well, I for my part will not order any time soon the IH shoulder pads/helmets thus ruining GW´s Christmas business. I will order instead from Raging Heroes an Iron Empire army. That´s my way of showing Gee-Dubs the cold shoulder. Damn, suits in Nottingham will get their panties in a twist when they read this.
Arbitrator wrote: The decades have shown that for every person priced out of GW's products, two people are willing to pick up their slack and buy more stuff for higher prices.
Big spenders are usually whales and people with no impulse control.
Has anyone ever seen one of these Whales?
I know they exist in MMO games, but with those you can at least interact with every new release. With models it takes time to at least build let alone paint and many of us here are not whales and yet already have extensive backlogs of models. So are Whales a thing for Warhammer and are they really as impactful as people suggest. Or is it really just that whilst no one likes a price rise, many just grin and bare it (and a few just tolerate it but then sling mud like crazy online to vent)
Arbitrator wrote: The decades have shown that for every person priced out of GW's products, two people are willing to pick up their slack and buy more stuff for higher prices.
Big spenders are usually whales and people with no impulse control.
Has anyone ever seen one of these Whales?
I absolutely have! I worked five years as a redshirt in one of Madrid's stores, in Spain, in one of the posh-est neighborhoods of the country, and people spent stupid amounts at a time. They just got everything, sometimes multiple times. Some then got them painted for tourney play, some painted themselves.
Without them, we would not have made target, most months.
A friend of a friend worked on a remote mine, so had a large amount of income and only one week in three to spend it. He had reams and reams and reams of grey plastic he barely touched.
I myself have a similar job but can't stomach the foolish prices GW charges these days so very infrequently buy from them. That being said I did pick up a Necron combat patrol the other day for over 200AUD from my FLGS....
I too would like to hear more about this tenuous claim about GW dying in Aus...
Indies who are set up to be GW discounters will already be counting the cost of increased shipping, fuel, staffing, energy, and items essential for the maintenance of their business.
5.8% on top of these pre existing raises will see a few just stop. Just another business decision.
Stores who are not set up to exclusively discount will be absolutely clobbered by all of the above -That is those who feel they have to compete with discounters to survive and more traditional gaming shops/sites.
GW would need to see literal hundreds of trade accounts go to zero before noticing any effect.
Arbitrator wrote: The decades have shown that for every person priced out of GW's products, two people are willing to pick up their slack and buy more stuff for higher prices.
Big spenders are usually whales and people with no impulse control.
Has anyone ever seen one of these Whales?
I know they exist in MMO games, but with those you can at least interact with every new release. With models it takes time to at least build let alone paint and many of us here are not whales and yet already have extensive backlogs of models. So are Whales a thing for Warhammer and are they really as impactful as people suggest. Or is it really just that whilst no one likes a price rise, many just grin and bare it (and a few just tolerate it but then sling mud like crazy online to vent)
I haven't seen them in person, but I've seen their big preorders waiting for the at the local GW store a couple times I've preordered GW stuff.
I know they exist in MMO games, but with those you can at least interact with every new release. With models it takes time to at least build let alone paint and many of us here are not whales and yet already have extensive backlogs of models. So are Whales a thing for Warhammer and are they really as impactful as people suggest. Or is it really just that whilst no one likes a price rise, many just grin and bare it (and a few just tolerate it but then sling mud like crazy online to vent)
I was one, of a sort, back in the day.
I'd just got my first "real" job with spending money and everything and I wanted an IG army, so I went to my local indy store (which had just opened) and plunked down the cash for a full Praetorian army with extensive armor support. Fully mechanized with artillery and Sentinels. Guy's face was glowing as I ticked off all the items and pre-paid for it.
I got great customer service after that, but never did it again. It was kind of fun.
Ironically, I subsequently sold them all off, getting an excellent deal in the process. GW's price hikes present unique opportunities to buy low and sell high. I think more than half of my collection was paid for that way.
Hopefully this means more alternative companies being able to find their way into indie stores as the margins on GW crumble. A lot of the time indies have to heavily compete with online to stay afloat and this will make the pressure even higher as the online stores can probably take the hit, huge warehouses full of all sorts of stuff and sometimes GW is just the draw to the rest of the store. There have been webstores running at 30% off, some at 25% currently, most at 20%. We'll probably see a drop-off to 20% as standard, free shipping thresholds rising.
I'd love somewhere local to stock Kings of War and other Mantic stuff, have even offered to do demos in my spare time, get a weekly group going, all stuff that takes time and could be a real asset.
No interest, though. GW or nothing, even if I then see them constantly fire-saling GW stock (usually large big box games that flopped, like warcry, dominion, dungeonbowl, ash wastes etc. horus heresy was the only one that really made bank for indies recently).
I know they exist in MMO games, but with those you can at least interact with every new release. With models it takes time to at least build let alone paint and many of us here are not whales and yet already have extensive backlogs of models. So are Whales a thing for Warhammer and are they really as impactful as people suggest. Or is it really just that whilst no one likes a price rise, many just grin and bare it (and a few just tolerate it but then sling mud like crazy online to vent)
Basically every release will have people saying 'this is far too expensive. I'm only going to buy two'.
Basically every release will have people saying 'this is far too expensive. I'm only going to buy two'.
On the GW Price Thread: "This is highway robbery!1! I'm totally going to boycott GW."
On the Painting Thread: "So this is my new fleet of the latest releases. I'm doing each one in a unique color scheme..."
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I'd say anyone with a decent sized Horus Heresy army from FW is a whale
Agreed. You want to see a whale in it´s natural habitat? Check out the 30K Channel on youtube. Once there was a guy who fielded a Mastodon. Every 30K marine is expensive as hell but this Mastodon is in another league.
> Hopefully this means more alternative companies being able to find their way into indie stores as the margins on GW crumble.
fwiw, Read up on monopolistic competition. "Monopolistic competition is a type of market structure where many companies are present in an industry, and they produce similar but differentiated products." The key part of mc is that you have a product that is "differentiated" enough that your target audience won't go after the "similar" products. GW has done it for Warhammer 40K with its store structure, lore, and other strategies I'm sure someone else can explain better than myself, since I don't get the willingness to pay GW prices, either. I do have three copies of Space Hulk, two copies of Space Crusade, a copy of Advanced Space Crusade, a copy of Killzone, two Tyrrannid army boxes...
GW is too expensive, hence people buy where they can get discounts as with 20% off it does not look that bad
still too expensive but not as bad going with GW
so maybe have realised that those are on the edge and reached the maximum people are willing to pay, no more profit increase so they reduce the margin for retailers
which means the 20% off becomes 15% and the 15% off reduced to 10%
or with higher cost to run a shop as well, more likely that we see the 20% becoming 10 and the 15 turn into 5, because the shops need to cover their cost but also need to be cheaper than GW to sell GW stuff
In addition stores already have problems selling certain GW stuff, even on discount because the "hype" is only real on the internet and for a short time
some of the local stores still have Cursed City on the shelf, because it does not sell to the board game community that comes across
and if they need to reduce the discount even further, the chance is high that instead of more profit for GW, those won't stock GW products at all
there is a good chance that this is not working out as well as GW might think
Anyone else remember when the secondary market for GW stuff took off on ebay, and GW tried to stop people from using photos of the merchandise for sale because that somehow violated GW's IP rights?
I seem to recall that while the lawyers were exchanging nasty emails, ebay asked sellers to not show GW packaging or logos, but dug in hard against GW arguing that it owned all likenesses of all its products.
When people say "GW is to expencive", they usually mean "I cant justify buying all this months new releases the day they are released!" rather than "I cant justify building a(nother) playable force over the next six months.
Some stuff is clearly not worth the price tag (looking at you, necromunda ridgehauler), even if I put the same amount of money on other stuff.
Fayric wrote: When people say "GW is to expencive", they usually mean "I cant justify buying all this months new releases the day they are released!" rather than "I cant justify building a(nother) playable force over the next six months.
Anyone else remember when the secondary market for GW stuff took off on ebay, and GW tried to stop people from using photos of the merchandise for sale because that somehow violated GW's IP rights?
I seem to recall that while the lawyers were exchanging nasty emails, ebay asked sellers to not show GW packaging or logos, but dug in hard against GW arguing that it owned all likenesses of all its products.
Yeah, they're not exactly free marketeers.
Yeah, I remember that for awhile. Didn't it end up getting watered down to basically "don't copy the picture off of the GW website for your listing"?
And even that doesn't seem to be enforced anymore.
Arbitrator wrote: The decades have shown that for every person priced out of GW's products, two people are willing to pick up their slack and buy more stuff for higher prices.
That leaves them with two thirds the customer base they could have. Probably half as with a saner pricing policy they not only retain the customer who leaves but gain three new ones instead of two. Even that is likely rounding down.
Yeah I think that was during the Kirby days of "our copyright lawyer isn't actually a lawyer". Which didn't really come to an end until Chaperhouse Court Case. I think GW today must have better legal advice.
GW is also not afraid of the internet either, back in those Kirby days GW almost seemed to wish that the internet would just go away
Its definitely a thing at least in the old days GW were never overly friendly towards independents. I used to work in a small store that sold GW, no problem at all getting new releases and well stocked. The moment a GW opened across town new releases were later arriving or not possible to stock. No idea if it was deliberate or just a result of limited stock coming to the area and the official store getting presidence but the effect was the same. (Should point out this was 25yrs ago though!)
I get the feeling they are now getting a much higher chunk of the wargaming marketshare (certainly more than 10yrs ago so when they really were looking on the ropes), so as with any almost monopoly, the company selling the stuff can act as it likes and the retailers have to put up with it. Although im not sure it will ultimately be helpful for the industry, especially as some of those stores will be feeling the pinch anyway, and this wont help.
Isn’t the margin like 35-40% anyway.
I get what your saying but we will still be able to find online discounts at 15% which is about all I can find in the states anyway outside of store closing 40% off sales.
Overread wrote: GW is also not afraid of the internet either, back in those Kirby days GW almost seemed to wish that the internet would just go away
fun fact, it all started with a fan film made outside the UK project was official supported and even advertised in WD but than GW learned by the people who made that movie that IP law in the UK is different to the rest of the world and that things they thought are fine were not
as those making the movie knew about differences to UK law but somehow GW thought as a UK based company UK law is always applied and not the law were the movie is made, and one of the differences (just to oversimplify it) was that unlike in the UK, an artist will always has the rights as a creator and those cannot be sold or acquired
and this caused the panic reaction to remove everything from the internet, and not allowing any fan-based content and GW even wanted people who post pictures of models online to add "painted by XX, copyright by GW" (which is stupid as GW selling you the model and you making the art, you own it and not GW and even a "model manufactured by GW" is not required) just to be sure no one else will have any rights to something GW thought they owned
Arbitrator wrote: The decades have shown that for every person priced out of GW's products, two people are willing to pick up their slack and buy more stuff for higher prices.
Big spenders are usually whales and people with no impulse control.
Has anyone ever seen one of these Whales?
I am one, likely you are also, likely nearly everyone here is a whale, some small some bigger.
Got more than one army? Spend over £200 on a faction?
"There he blows."
I have multiple armies, so I cannot avoid the label if it applies. So in whaledom terms I have my fair share of blubber, but am nowhere near the largest.
I know they exist in MMO games, but with those you can at least interact with every new release. With models it takes time to at least build let alone paint and many of us here are not whales and yet already have extensive backlogs of models. So are Whales a thing for Warhammer and are they really as impactful as people suggest. Or is it really just that whilst no one likes a price rise, many just grin and bare it (and a few just tolerate it but then sling mud like crazy online to vent)
But does it apply. Really?
This is different though, most Dakkaites probably avoid the label of 'whale', including you and I and other big spender hobbyists.
The distinction, and the reason why outside this thread I would NOT term myself a whale, and would frankly be offended by the label is that whales are a very specific type of spender.
Whales buy virtual expendables for online products. If you buy 10000 diamonds to give yourself a boost in an online game you are a whale, if you buy a wargames army you may spend more, but when the crystals are gone and you have nothing to show for them you still have the toys. So those buying the models but not the 'diamonds' are not whales, they are just high end consumers. They can even sell the army.
However you cannot sell the 'diamonds' there may well be restrictions on the account you bought the diamonds for.
Now purchasing in game currency doesn't automatically make you a whale. Some games have a nominal free to play structure but lock permanent DLC behind a paywall. Pay some money to unlock new content, sure, not whaledom. You can also buy modest amount of 'diamonds' and not be a whale either. Play a free game, like it, pay $5 for the basic pack of 'diamonds' as a contribution.
Whaledom occurs when you must win a competitive online game, because you need the sense of achievement, and sink lots of real world money into short term in game boosts. Some online games companies make almost their entire revenue from the 2% of whales.
This is mildly exploitative, whales whale usually because they underachieve and want to be the good at something, which they can be if they pay enough. These can be big spenders, but normally have it together.
The main distinction between whales and big spender hobbyists is that whales don't get to keep their purchase, they pay real money for vapour. In many cases they don't even keep the game, the server resets after six months, or there is a new game based on the next years teams and a whole new run of virtual assets to collect.
Things get particularly shady when you add gambling mechanics. Pay $10 for 'diamonds' so you can rofflestomp a free-to-play opponent, tolerable. Pay $10 for a roulette wheel with the chance to win 'diamonds', fething reprehensible. But it doesn't stop at $10, or $100. It gets even worse, it is cheaper to buy a Forgeworld Warlord Titan than to gamble for top tier players in FiFa or one the best socket gems in Diablo Online. It is at that point you realise that these game companies are exploiting children and the mentally ill. Our hobby may be crazy, but there is a veneer of sanity behind what we collect, we get product, and it is ours, we can also sell our collections in hard times, or have our widows sell it when we are gone. It looks good on the shelf, it's (potentially) a work of art. You don't ever need to use it for it to have real lasting life value. Online whales have no excuse, or more accurately their exploiters don't.
for GW, not retailers
GW is operating on 40-41% profit margin, a retailer has 20-25% margin on the products (at least some time ago, don't know the current ones but given that you now see 15% more often than 20% discount it might be already lower), which means someone who gives 20% discount has a 5% income, and from this 5% they need to cover all their costs and make a living
and now GW ask for 5,8% more from the retailers, which means someone doing a 20% discount makes a loss on selling GW models, while just doing a 10'% discount might not give them enough volume of sales to live from the income
Orlanth wrote: Our hobby may be crazy, but there is a veneer of sanity behind what we collect, we get product, and it is ours, we can also sell our collections in hard times, or have our widows sell it when we are gone. Online whales have no excuse, or more accurately their exploiters don't.
Also, and no less important, once you bought your stuff you can at least theoretically use it as often as you like and in perpetuity, and are not dependent on GW providing some sort of service or support. In practice, you still need someone to play with and a physical or digital space to set up a game, but that is pretty easy to find nowadays.
Arbitrator wrote: The decades have shown that for every person priced out of GW's products, two people are willing to pick up their slack and buy more stuff for higher prices.
Big spenders are usually whales and people with no impulse control.
Has anyone ever seen one of these Whales?
I am one, likely you are also, likely nearly everyone here is a whale, some small some bigger.
Got more than one army? Spend over £200 on a faction?
"There he blows."
I have multiple armies, so I cannot avoid the label if it applies. So in whaledom terms I have my fair share of blubber, but am nowhere near the largest.
I don't think you can classify a whale as spending £200 on an army. That's just regular army collecting to build up a single army. Even then most armies would be hard pressed to fit into that budget (flesheater courts you can probably do for that little). Plus you can easily spend as much if not more on paint and building tools alone. That isn't what I'd consider "Whale" money.
Whale would be something closer to "I'm buying at least 1 of every new thing GW releases on release day" kind of territory. Or "I own a 100,000 point army" kind of situation. Though even then you'd want to attach a timeframe since you can spend fairly low over the years and build up a large number of points if you focus on just one army.
But that's getting down into the specifics of where we classify a whale and since its a term that tends to be being used in a negative connection its a term many will push at to increase the limits on so that it doesn't apply to them. People want to be keen fans; die hard players; competitive etc.... They don't want to be a "bloated whale"
Pacific wrote: Its definitely a thing at least in the old days GW were never overly friendly towards independents. I used to work in a small store that sold GW, no problem at all getting new releases and well stocked. The moment a GW opened across town new releases were later arriving or not possible to stock. No idea if it was deliberate or just a result of limited stock coming to the area and the official store getting presidence but the effect was the same. (Should point out this was 25yrs ago though!)
GW seems to have shifted this stance as every FLGS I know got a TON of the Voltaan boxes while several GW stores announced their allocation of the box would be delayed and they wouldn't have them on release day.
Pacific wrote: Its definitely a thing at least in the old days GW were never overly friendly towards independents. I used to work in a small store that sold GW, no problem at all getting new releases and well stocked. The moment a GW opened across town new releases were later arriving or not possible to stock. No idea if it was deliberate or just a result of limited stock coming to the area and the official store getting presidence but the effect was the same. (Should point out this was 25yrs ago though!)
GW seems to have shifted this stance as every FLGS I know got a TON of the Voltaan boxes while several GW stores announced their allocation of the box would be delayed and they wouldn't have them on release day.
One of the biggest in the UK did not get all the stock to fill Votann preorders, and only today GW updated the store info on those kits as in stock... Its been sold out for 1 month, preorders not filled I mean.
So, my wife and I can be considered "whales". 40k and AoS are our passions. We both worked super hard our whole lives, weren't able to have children, don't travel, etc... but that means we can do 4-6 large armies a year, support local talented commission painters, etc... I also have an incurable genetic disorder, so I wanna savor every bit of my last 10-15 years unapologetically...
That's for context... but let me say, we're an extreme fluke, and not the fanbase GW can count on. Even we're running out of armies after doing this for 10+years... so we were tapering off our buying anyway.
Meanwhile we support a lot of local stores that this will be an awful hit for. Several barely give tabletop games table space as it is, as one 6x4(ish) table, can support one game of 40k... but three games of Magic, Pokemon, etc...
All these mad pricing moves accomplish is, driving down shelf presence and table presence in stores, and drive up 3d printing, etc... It is very typical late-stage-capitalism to go hard on short term gains, with no eye towards the wide view.
Many of our stores were selling at MSRP... there's no where for them to go... they just lose money...
Hm, disappointing. Not going to watch the video because the title is clickbait, but the news is worth discussion. I feel like GW corporate does not understand how different the miniature gaming scene is in the US, where stores are the locations that provide space for people to gather & play. More or less it is that or hoping a friend has a game room, likely with only one table and very limited terrain.
Put simply, less independent retailer support = less community = less sales for GW. In the short term they will surely get profit from this, but I don't see how the long term impact will work in their favor. They weren't having problems making money before. Fortunately MTG exists as a subsidy.
It's all about maximizing profit for this financial year, or even just this quarter. When a company is owned by shareholders, everybody there, up to the CEO, really "just works there." And the strategies work until they don't.
Local stores just need to make sure they have a diverse audience, TCGs (I know Magic is on fire right now and sometimes losing places money), board games, RPG minis, 3d printing, all that. Because if you don't offer the maximum discount on GW products, somebody else will.
Arbitrator wrote: The decades have shown that for every person priced out of GW's products, two people are willing to pick up their slack and buy more stuff for higher prices.
Big spenders are usually whales and people with no impulse control.
Has anyone ever seen one of these Whales?
I am one, likely you are also, likely nearly everyone here is a whale, some small some bigger.
Got more than one army? Spend over £200 on a faction?
"There he blows."
I have multiple armies, so I cannot avoid the label if it applies. So in whaledom terms I have my fair share of blubber, but am nowhere near the largest.
I don't think you can classify a whale as spending £200 on an army. That's just regular army collecting to build up a single army. Even then most armies would be hard pressed to fit into that budget (flesheater courts you can probably do for that little). Plus you can easily spend as much if not more on paint and building tools alone. That isn't what I'd consider "Whale" money.
I might not, you might not. But whaledom is not decided by us, but by society at large.
Spend £200 on toy soldiers for men, that is an extravagence, and also still an oddity despite some change in attitudes. We also both know it doesn't stop there.
Whale would be something closer to "I'm buying at least 1 of every new thing GW releases on release day" kind of territory.
arguably that is a collector, people like that dont tend to open their kits, or buy two and open one. These collections become significant over time, and not only in money spent.
Or "I own a 100,000 point army" kind of situation. Though even then you'd want to attach a timeframe since you can spend fairly low over the years and build up a large number of points if you focus on just one army.
Ok a 100K army is too much, but if I totalled all my WHFB and 40K it would come to a little more than that, and that was collected over time since the 90's by a guy on mostly low income.
But that's getting down into the specifics of where we classify a whale and since its a term that tends to be being used in a negative connection its a term many will push at to increase the limits on so that it doesn't apply to them. People want to be keen fans; die hard players; competitive etc.... They don't want to be a "bloated whale"
If we have piles of shame, then any further purchases are a form of whaledom.
Tell me I am wrong.
Greenfield wrote: People seem to be assuming that GW's own margins aren't already being squeezed. If GW's costs are increasing (very likely) and they aren't raising prices, then their own margin is already being hit. Whether that's more or less than the 5.8% rise in trade prices they've passed on to retailers none of us would know, but it doesn't follow that just because GW raised trade prices by 5.8% without raising RRP that they're simply netting 5.8% more profit at the expense of independent retailers. They may well have been sucking up those kinds of cost increases in their own supply chain already.
Before people pile on, this isn't a blanket defence. Games Workshop products are expensive; they make lots of pricing decisions that I think are strange, misguided or objectionable – but raising prices to retailers when your own costs are likely going up considerably really isn't much evidence of a strategy to hammer independent stores or hit internet discounters or whatever.
It's more that we know their margins on the stuff they make tends to be quite large, and that they've had record earnings for several years on a row. They could suck up a reduction in margins without having losses, just less earnings. They chose not to do that.
We also know that many, if not most FLGS, run at razor thin margins.
Sure, GW sets it prices with a very substantial margin. But that's not new and doesn't really seem to be the criticism a lot of people are levelling here. If GW's costs are going up (does anyone imagine they aren't?) their margins will be going down. Putting up wholesale prices just corrects for that – whether they're going beyond correction with the precise level of the rise in prices, I don't think we can say.
Pacific wrote: Its definitely a thing at least in the old days GW were never overly friendly towards independents. I used to work in a small store that sold GW, no problem at all getting new releases and well stocked. The moment a GW opened across town new releases were later arriving or not possible to stock. No idea if it was deliberate or just a result of limited stock coming to the area and the official store getting presidence but the effect was the same. (Should point out this was 25yrs ago though!)
I get the feeling they are now getting a much higher chunk of the wargaming marketshare (certainly more than 10yrs ago so when they really were looking on the ropes), so as with any almost monopoly, the company selling the stuff can act as it likes and the retailers have to put up with it. Although im not sure it will ultimately be helpful for the industry, especially as some of those stores will be feeling the pinch anyway, and this wont help.
The FLGS moved across the city centre to set up next door to the GW and is still going strong.
It is an FLGS/ model/ toy soldier/ model railway/ RC cars store so does have more strings to its bow to keep it going. They don't appear to have issues with getting the latest product but I know they don't advertise selling GW stuff for less than retail. There is a discount if you're a regular.
Orlanth wrote: I might not, you might not. But whaledom is not decided by us, but by society at large.
Spend £200 on toy soldiers for men, that is an extravagence, and also still an oddity despite some change in attitudes. We also both know it doesn't stop there.
The opinion of society at large is irrelevant because "whale" is defined relative to other customers. A whale is defined by two things: significantly greater spending than the average customer, and buying habits that are driven by addictive behavior rather than rational evaluation of the value of a purchase. Buying $5,000 in loot boxes for a F2P mobile game makes you a whale, buying a $50,000 airplane is just an entry-level purchase in an expensive hobby. The person who merely participates in an expensive hobby does not necessarily have the impulse control issues that make whales such a desirable target for a business.
(And why is it toy soldiers for men specifically? Do women not get to have toy soldiers?)
Arbitrator wrote: The decades have shown that for every person priced out of GW's products, two people are willing to pick up their slack and buy more stuff for higher prices.
Big spenders are usually whales and people with no impulse control.
Has anyone ever seen one of these Whales?
I am one, likely you are also, likely nearly everyone here is a whale, some small some bigger.
Got more than one army? Spend over £200 on a faction?
"There he blows."
I have multiple armies, so I cannot avoid the label if it applies. So in whaledom terms I have my fair share of blubber, but am nowhere near the largest.
I don't think you can classify a whale as spending £200 on an army. That's just regular army collecting to build up a single army. Even then most armies would be hard pressed to fit into that budget (flesheater courts you can probably do for that little). Plus you can easily spend as much if not more on paint and building tools alone. That isn't what I'd consider "Whale" money.
I might not, you might not. But whaledom is not decided by us, but by society at large.
Spend £200 on toy soldiers for men, that is an extravagence, and also still an oddity despite some change in attitudes. We also both know it doesn't stop there.
It feels like you're muddying the water mixing up hobbies and whales which whilst related are two separate discussions/groupings.
Hobbies by their nature are luxury purchases that are non-essential. Each hobby will have its cheap and expensive options and each hobby in itself will have a different range of thresholds to buy into the hobby. Some are really low, some are very high.
However when talking about whales you're not talking about that, you're talking about already being with the hobby and then identifying exceptional buying power within the hobby. Then we take it one stage further, because tha's where we started, to ask if those exceptions are generating enough sales on their own to account for a controlling margin of GW's marketing and product creation and sale.
Are there whales - sure - are they common enough and spending enough to actually be a major percentage of GW's total sales to the point where they are a very specific group GW markets and works with? And just where is the line between keen hobbyist and whale.
Also, and no less important, once you bought your stuff you can at least theoretically use it as often as you like and in perpetuity, and are not dependent on GW providing some sort of service or support. In practice, you still need someone to play with and a physical or digital space to set up a game, but that is pretty easy to find nowadays.
You can also use it for non-GW purposes, or to play out of print GW games. It's physical property, and likely has some value to other collectors.
I think the term "whale" has a specific connotation insofar is to be perceived as "big" you have to buy things all at once. The guy who goes all-in on the most expensive kits, dropping big cash makes a splash. You know, like a whale.
Some dude who picks up a kit every now and then is not a whale, because there's no splash.
Another difference is the craft element. Someone who buys a boxed set and then wants it professionally painted is different than someone whose enjoyment largely comes from the act of modeling and painting.
I think in the online sense, the same distinction applies. Whales buy advancement through sheer cash drops, as opposed to dedicated hobbyists who level up and get loot through game play.
I think we all see the difference between the guy who over the space of 20 years of collecting now as a considerable array of armies with large point values and the dude who buys a 10,000 point army all at once and wants someone else to paint it.
Going to sound very harsh here but its best to remember that:
I am not a GW apologist.
Discounting on GW product (As with any other product or service) is an opportunistic decision made by individual business owners.
Discounters sacrificed profitability in the hope of shifting more units. It is not a benevolent act of charity
Hopefully (for their customers) they haven't been blindly following their own model on the basis that GW trade prices wouldn't go up.
The discounters are the ones 'punishing' smaller businesses.
Simple maths says that increasing your profitability allows for loss of sales (by a surprising margin - there's a simple equation but I'm a mathidiot so ill have to look it up).
Support for brick and mortar stores is known to help those sites increase profitability and or drive volume.
Whatever you think of capitalism, company chooses to pass on rising production costs, is not a shocker. It’s not crime. It’s just…the cost of doing business.
We don’t need to endorse it. We don’t need to agree with it.
But at the end of the day, we do need to accept it, however bitter the taste.
Real life example from my real life? Last financial year, despite the place where I work exceeding target? No pay rise. This year? Doing that again to a record degree despite a lower employee headcount? 2% payrises.
Given U.K. inflation is well….at least 10%? That’s two real terms pay cuts for me, despite my best being in excess of merely adequate.
Mr. Burning wrote: Going to sound very harsh here but its best to remember that:
I am not a GW apologist.
GW has had a very fraught relationship with FLGS here in the US for a long time. This is nothing new. When they made their big push for GW stores, there were allegations that the locations were sited based on previous sales to existing retailers, many whom helped put GW on the map.
Yeah, nothing personal, just business, but there is such a thing as a positive-sum game.
I don't think Tom Kirby ever believed that, though, and he treated every discount, every channel of commerce beyond his reach - even including used games - as money that somehow rightfully belonged to GW.
The IP rights thing was funny because GW is the most derivative IP out there. I mean, they helped get started as TSR's UK licensee. I actually own a D&D dungeon authored by Kirby. Times change, I guess.
I recall articles on ICv2 15 years ago, and back then I prophesied DOOM for GW. Obviously, I was wrong, Kirby's out, some changes have been made, but old habits die hard.
and, in the UK, selling over RRP is actually a criminal offence
pretty sure it is not. A seller can sell at whatever price they want. It is a 'recommended' price not a maximum enforceable price.
There's some rules around products with prices printed on them, although I think that only applies so log as you don't cover them up with the new price (so you are not misleading a consumer).
Tony Quigley, Head of Trading Standards at Birmingham City Council, said: “Trading Standards is receiving a high volume of calls about businesses charging inflated prices and ‘dual pricing’. Whilst traders can charge what they want for items that are not price marked except by themselves, it is a criminal offence to charge a higher price for products that are clearly marked with a visible lower price
RRP would be that "visibly lower price", and retailers certainly don't price that themselves.
But I don't really know, maybe you're right and it's printed prices. A while back the blisters and boxes had a price bracket code, but even that would not be a "marked price" I guess?
That said, I don't exactly see retailers asking for prices over GW's RRP either way. So they'll suck up the cost or reduce their discounts, if they have. Good for GW either way, I'm sure.
No, a “visibly lower price” is one marked on the shelf or the item itself. It’s nothing to do with anyone else’s suggestions or third party prices. This is why multi-pack items such as canned drinks regularly have a price that is much lower than the cost of the pack divided by the content printed right on the can at the factory. Because they don’t want people breaking down multi-packs for resale at the regular single can price and a savvy customer will insist on the marked price as is their right. Just like you can ask them to give you the discount price even if the discount period ended, but they haven’t changed the shelf tag yet.
gungo wrote: Isn’t the margin like 35-40% anyway.
I get what your saying but we will still be able to find online discounts at 15% which is about all I can find in the states anyway outside of store closing 40% off sales.
No. GW sells at retailers at 30% off. Or, well, did.
gungo wrote: Isn’t the margin like 35-40% anyway.
I get what your saying but we will still be able to find online discounts at 15% which is about all I can find in the states anyway outside of store closing 40% off sales.
No. GW sells at retailers at 30% off. Or, well, did.
The last time I looked into opening a store, about 5 years ago, the wholesale/retail percentage was somewhere between 43% and 47% under MSRP depending on distributor, order size, etc.
I.E. a $60 box of Primaris Infiltrators would cost me on average $33 to buy and then resell to the customer.
gungo wrote: Isn’t the margin like 35-40% anyway.
I get what your saying but we will still be able to find online discounts at 15% which is about all I can find in the states anyway outside of store closing 40% off sales.
No. GW sells at retailers at 30% off. Or, well, did.
The last time I looked into opening a store, about 5 years ago, the wholesale/retail percentage was somewhere between 43% and 47% under MSRP depending on distributor, order size, etc.
I.E. a $60 box of Primaris Infiltrators would cost me on average $33 to buy and then resell to the customer.
I can't really speak for the USA. In Spain, it's 30%.
I have a theory that a lot of MBA types, coming from the world of finance (or usury as it's more correctly termed) have a habit of viewing things as a zero-sum game where there's a static pile of money, and every dollar somebody swipes out of your money pile is your loss. Because in the world of coin begetting coin, this is often the case.
They forget however they're in the business of actually making things, and that you can grow the pie, as they say, you can create new sources of revenue, you can use creativity to greatly increase your existing revenue streams. And that they live in an ecosystem where other species are actually allowing them to stay alive, rather than simply eating all the food that could be theirs. A misunderstanding on their part that leads to stupid ideas such as, "We'll squeeze out the independent stores and then we'll have all their customers and they'll pay us full MSRP!"
They had similarly stupid thoughts back when they shut down people parts selling on eBay and thinking, "Now instead of paying a couple bucks for a single piece, the customer will come to us and pay the full $100+ for the entire model to get the single piece!" Which, spoiler warning, NEVER HAPPENED.
This is the regular cycle for GW.
And regardless of what they do - raise prices frequently - blow up game systems - discontinue armies - shun fan made content, in the end it never matters.
They still dominate the market, as they have for the past 30 plus years I’ve watched them, and people still flock to their products.
Despite what they do to the customers or the retailers, hobbyists still flock to them like flies to honey.
I’ve heard the doom cycle too many times to count. No matter how high the prices get, or what they do, people will still go back to them.
Nothing changes, except the conversation around what they’re doing this week/month/year.
Their reach and influence in the miniature gaming sphere is unparalleled, and for that reason alone, they will never go down. Gamers gonna buy minis, and GW has the longest reach and deepest market penetration over any other company.
I suspect this will stop some retailers from selling scads of product. And some might even stop carrying it. But largely nothing will be different because once a GW fan, always a GW fan.
Arbitrator wrote: The decades have shown that for every person priced out of GW's products, two people are willing to pick up their slack and buy more stuff for higher prices.
Big spenders are usually whales and people with no impulse control.
scarletsquig wrote: Hopefully this means more alternative companies being able to find their way into indie stores as the margins on GW crumble. A lot of the time indies have to heavily compete with online to stay afloat and this will make the pressure even higher as the online stores can probably take the hit, huge warehouses full of all sorts of stuff and sometimes GW is just the draw to the rest of the store. There have been webstores running at 30% off, some at 25% currently, most at 20%. We'll probably see a drop-off to 20% as standard, free shipping thresholds rising.
I'd love somewhere local to stock Kings of War and other Mantic stuff, have even offered to do demos in my spare time, get a weekly group going, all stuff that takes time and could be a real asset.
Unlikely. Mantic has issues with retailer orders. If the issues I have dealt with are any indication, I can see why they are not more widely carried. At least in the US.
No interest, though. GW or nothing, even if I then see them constantly fire-saling GW stock (usually large big box games that flopped, like warcry, dominion, dungeonbowl, ash wastes etc. horus heresy was the only one that really made bank for indies recently).
scarletsquig wrote: Hopefully this means more alternative companies being able to find their way into indie stores as the margins on GW crumble. A lot of the time indies have to heavily compete with online to stay afloat and this will make the pressure even higher as the online stores can probably take the hit, huge warehouses full of all sorts of stuff and sometimes GW is just the draw to the rest of the store. There have been webstores running at 30% off, some at 25% currently, most at 20%. We'll probably see a drop-off to 20% as standard, free shipping thresholds rising.
I'd love somewhere local to stock Kings of War and other Mantic stuff, have even offered to do demos in my spare time, get a weekly group going, all stuff that takes time and could be a real asset.
Unlikely. Mantic has issues with retailer orders. If the issues I have dealt with are any indication, I can see why they are not more widely carried. At least in the US.
The stores I have seen with Mantic here in the US are clogged with stock that they barely move to maybe 1-2 regular customers. The majority of shoppers in the US, in my experience, don't want their offerings.
scarletsquig wrote: Hopefully this means more alternative companies being able to find their way into indie stores as the margins on GW crumble. A lot of the time indies have to heavily compete with online to stay afloat and this will make the pressure even higher as the online stores can probably take the hit, huge warehouses full of all sorts of stuff and sometimes GW is just the draw to the rest of the store. There have been webstores running at 30% off, some at 25% currently, most at 20%. We'll probably see a drop-off to 20% as standard, free shipping thresholds rising.
I'd love somewhere local to stock Kings of War and other Mantic stuff, have even offered to do demos in my spare time, get a weekly group going, all stuff that takes time and could be a real asset.
Unlikely. Mantic has issues with retailer orders. If the issues I have dealt with are any indication, I can see why they are not more widely carried. At least in the US.
The stores I have seen with Mantic here in the US are clogged with stock that they barely move to maybe 1-2 regular customers. The majority of shoppers in the US, in my experience, don't want their offerings.
That's partly due to the quality issues with plastics they have dealt with historically.
scarletsquig wrote: Hopefully this means more alternative companies being able to find their way into indie stores as the margins on GW crumble. A lot of the time indies have to heavily compete with online to stay afloat and this will make the pressure even higher as the online stores can probably take the hit, huge warehouses full of all sorts of stuff and sometimes GW is just the draw to the rest of the store. There have been webstores running at 30% off, some at 25% currently, most at 20%. We'll probably see a drop-off to 20% as standard, free shipping thresholds rising.
I'd love somewhere local to stock Kings of War and other Mantic stuff, have even offered to do demos in my spare time, get a weekly group going, all stuff that takes time and could be a real asset.
Unlikely. Mantic has issues with retailer orders. If the issues I have dealt with are any indication, I can see why they are not more widely carried. At least in the US.
The stores I have seen with Mantic here in the US are clogged with stock that they barely move to maybe 1-2 regular customers. The majority of shoppers in the US, in my experience, don't want their offerings.
That's partly due to the quality issues with plastics they have dealt with historically.
I had originally written "sub-par offerings" but felt it might be a bit harsh towards people that like their stuff for whatever reason.
Simple maths says that increasing your profitability allows for loss of sales (by a surprising margin - there's a simple equation but I'm a mathidiot so ill have to look it up).
Loss of sales is near total. You retain some loyal customers out of habit and you retain any walk in customer if you have a brick and mortar store. However nearly all online sales go to the storefront that has the lowest price after P&P.
I always chuckle when I think back to when GW tried to muscle in on a local shop by setting up just a few blocks south, failed to drum up enough business, and had to close shop.
Then another company tried the same thing a few years later, just a few blocks north this time, and that one failed once more.
There was a third store that tried setting up near this same local shop, but at least they eventually moved a bit farther away and seem to have a pretty stable location now.
Anecdotally, I went to a semi local place on Black Friday, as they usually do some steep discounts on GW, but not many people seemed overtly interested- I did overhear quite a few people gripe about the discount still not being enough to counterbalance the prices. Saw a lot of Bolt Action, Flames of War, and more RPG focused figures (Reaper & Wizkids) when it came to people making gaming purchases.
Personally I hope it gives smaller companies a chance to get their feet back in the door of the indie shops. It wasn't that many years ago that Privateer seemed to dominate the local areas, and now it's pretty much a footnote on the deep discount tables.
Wasn't the pricing issues what originally led to things like the Start Collecting boxes and Warhammer Underworlds becoming more of an entry level purchase, or is that me just misremembering?
I had originally written "sub-par offerings" but felt it might be a bit harsh towards people that like their stuff for whatever reason.
I got the halflings vs orcs kit last year and oh boy are the orc torsos VERY plastic-blobby for detail in areas. Absolutely fine for rank and file cool mandollies using the 3ft rule, but compared to GW stuff I can see why they could be considered crap.
[Also a general note to all, trim your damned forum quotes people! Find the end square bracket on the first line indicating the user you're quoting, then delete everything down to the actual post you're quoting ]
Our local game club has rooms in our LGS. While the club pays some money for rent, we are still dependent on the existence of the store for the club to exist, mostly because rent is so high in german cities that it is barely affordable to get club space rented anywhere else. Since Corona many customers stayed away, people got used to buy stuff online because the shops were closed for a long time. GW lowering the profit on boxes for retail makes this situation even worse. Current inflation is just adding up to the issue.
So yeah, this new money grab by GW hits my mood hard.
Simple maths says that increasing your profitability allows for loss of sales (by a surprising margin - there's a simple equation but I'm a mathidiot so ill have to look it up).
Loss of sales is near total. You retain some loyal customers out of habit and you retain any walk in customer if you have a brick and mortar store. However nearly all online sales go to the storefront that has the lowest price after P&P.
Of course. For those online retailers.
In general there are ways of sustaining profitability - thinking of GW product in this instance - for B&M locations who are not reliant on shifting piles of stock.
Its very tough at the moment. 5%+ on top of other rising costs maybe the straw that broke the camels back.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote: Our local game club has rooms in our LGS. While the club pays some money for rent, we are still dependent on the existence of the store for the club to exist, mostly because rent is so high in german cities that it is barely affordable to get club space rented anywhere else. Since Corona many customers stayed away, people got used to buy stuff online because the shops were closed for a long time. GW lowering the profit on boxes for retail makes this situation even worse. Current inflation is just adding up to the issue.
So yeah, this new money grab by GW hits my mood hard.
Discounters have lowered the profit expectation for independent sector for the last decade or so.
GW CAN and SHOULD be offering more in the way of marketing and support for B&M stores with gaming space.
So, many retailers offer free shipping over £75ish in the UK, with wayland off the top of my head offering free over £20, though they do have a mostly lower discount rate than most. I assume wayland may raise their minimum order for shipping.
However if prices do come closer to RRP of GW, I wonder how many people will actually switch to doing small orders with GW (as opposed to having to buy more products to hit the free shipping totals with third parties).
So if Wayland raise their free shipping, to say £35-40. Could people buy more direct from GW for say, a paint order, or just one box. GW is free shipping over £20.
I would guess GW may raise their free shipping charge as well, with their costs going up, having to pay labour on packing, shipping cost in general, utility costs, website maintenance, business processes costs etc. It may not actually make them that much more money in the end, as if consumers go away from FLGS's and online FLGS's, and switch to consuming via GW direct, the logistics and costs that could involve could mean any increase in profit is negligible.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, and a point others have alluded to, spending power of consumers is going to reduce. The given that for every 1 person leaving the hobby, there are two to replace them will not hold water.
I've bought cadia stands and I don't perceive me buying a single model until maybe games day from now on - like most, I have a pile to be working on, and have mostly moved away from citadel paints so they will be going from directly, or indirectly taking £100 (via FLGS) to £200 (direct purchases) just from myself per month to mostly zero for the next 6 months. Let's assume the next killteam box is something I want, then that will be the one £100ish they will get out of me, but that is much lower than 600-1200 over a similar time period in the last few years.
On top of that, with the amount of hobbyists leaving, or reducing their collects it seems - Facebook marketplace groups are rife with it currently - there are many more in a similar or more dire situation than myself and they don't make a penny on a second hand sale.
I do think there is a legitimately possibility GW will start making more discount boxes, or bundle deals to keep people in the hobby in the short term. Actually, I've been waiting for the mystery boxes to come back around again, I would buy one of them at least.
Just note that FB groups increasing with secondhand sales is not just a factor of people giving up or forced to leave the hobby due to financial pressures (which is very much on the rise); but also because many are abandoning ebay since with Facebook the only fee you typically have is the 3% Paypal fee; whilst with Ebay there are multiple other fees.
Of course ebay you can cross your fingers that a bidding war starts and your product sells for more and it does tend to get more attention than FB groups so you potentially cna sell things faster.
Ghool wrote: This is the regular cycle for GW.
And regardless of what they do - raise prices frequently - blow up game systems - discontinue armies - shun fan made content, in the end it never matters.
They still dominate the market, as they have for the past 30 plus years I’ve watched them, and people still flock to their products.
Despite what they do to the customers or the retailers, hobbyists still flock to them like flies to honey.
I’ve heard the doom cycle too many times to count. No matter how high the prices get, or what they do, people will still go back to them.
Nothing changes, except the conversation around what they’re doing this week/month/year.
I'm generally in agreement with you, but there are some differences this time around. For one thing, we've not had inflation like this in a very long time, so gauging its impact is difficult. Will rising core survival needs crush hobbies, or will people try to hang onto a slice of fun?
The other thing is the demographic collapse of the West. There are just less little kids to hit their teen years and buy a starter box. College enrollment is collapsing because there are less college-age students and universities are struggling as a result.
Now maybe those fewer kids will be more affluent per capita so they'll have the buying power of whales, but since gaming is also a social activity, they may also have a harder time finding players in a lot of environments. I have no idea, I just know that cycles repeat until they don't.
First up there's all the people that walk into the their local shop to buy. Even if you're aware of online discount stores many will still go and buy local because it helps support the local store. This is especially true if the store offers play/paint stations and support, but can also be if the store is also supporting local clubs (even if its just somewhere to advertise the club and get members to know the club exists).
After that even though the Pandemic got more people online, many don't buy from anywhere that isn't the "official named" store for a product. So even though there are discount stores, some people just won't "risk" using them and will stick to the official channels. Or their googling will have them only take the top one or two results etc.... So they basically aren't shopping around.
Then you can throw in bad experiences, which these days can even be postage taking more than 7 days to arrive; as reasons for people not using certain stores and the like.
We've not even touched upon limited stock items where discount stores might sell out faster than the GW main site; or where limited stock means that hte GW store ends up being one the last places to have active stock of an item
I buy paints and books (novels not rules) from my local GW but that's because I've been going to it and the previous location for many years and the team there are good eggs.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: .
So if Wayland raise their free shipping, to say £35-40. Could people buy more direct from GW for say, a paint order, or just one box. GW is free shipping over £20.
I would guess GW may raise their free shipping charge as well, with their costs going up, having to pay labour on packing, shipping cost in general, utility costs, website maintenance, business processes costs etc. It may not actually make them that much more money in the end, as if consumers go away from FLGS's and online FLGS's, and switch to consuming via GW direct, the logistics and costs that could involve could mean any increase in profit is negligible.
A point that I think has been missed is that it's allegedly an *average* increase of 5.8%, so some items could realistically be 10-15% higher if others are lower.
We also don't know how the average was determined - number of SKUs or price?
But I haven't seen a breakdown of the pricing changes yet, has anyone seen any more details?
Herzlos wrote: A point that I think has been missed is that it's allegedly an *average* increase of 5.8%, so some items could realistically be 10-15% higher if others are lower.
We also don't know how the average was determined - number of SKUs or price?
But I haven't seen a breakdown of the pricing changes yet, has anyone seen any more details?
I haven't seen anyone provide any, I dare say retailers won't know for certain until a week or two before it kicks in, so maybe next week?
Herzlos wrote: A point that I think has been missed is that it's allegedly an *average* increase of 5.8%, so some items could realistically be 10-15% higher if others are lower.
We also don't know how the average was determined - number of SKUs or price?
But I haven't seen a breakdown of the pricing changes yet, has anyone seen any more details?
What's still ambiguous is if the increase is based a percentage of the RRP or cost price. I first assumed the former but reading again it seems more like the latter, which would be closer to 3% of RRP. That would make huge increases less likely.
Tyel wrote: Does anyone buy direct from GW any more?
It just seems to me that more or less the day I realised I could get stuff 20-25% cheaper, any direct purchases ceased. Its a massive discount.
GW could try and fight this (i.e. spend £100, get 10% off or something) - but to my knowledge they never have.
If the stores cut the discount by 5%, I'm still going to buy from them over GW.
I do but it’s only if I can’t find it at my LGS. Canada doesn’t seem to have many discounts for retail, and Amazon up here is, in general, as or more expensive than my LGS.
So I usually support them instead. But I don’t buy much in the way of GW. Just the occasional figure, Underworlds box or warband.
I have found one retailer in Ontario that has stuff at a discount, but it’s not much. I’m not the target demographic for GW though - I don’t buy or paint much GW and spend maybe $100 a year on their products.
Simple maths says that increasing your profitability allows for loss of sales (by a surprising margin - there's a simple equation but I'm a mathidiot so ill have to look it up).
Loss of sales is near total. You retain some loyal customers out of habit and you retain any walk in customer if you have a brick and mortar store. However nearly all online sales go to the storefront that has the lowest price after P&P.
Of course. For those online retailers.
In general there are ways of sustaining profitability - thinking of GW product in this instance - for B&M locations who are not reliant on shifting piles of stock.
Its very tough at the moment. 5%+ on top of other rising costs maybe the straw that broke the camels back.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote: Our local game club has rooms in our LGS. While the club pays some money for rent, we are still dependent on the existence of the store for the club to exist, mostly because rent is so high in german cities that it is barely affordable to get club space rented anywhere else. Since Corona many customers stayed away, people got used to buy stuff online because the shops were closed for a long time. GW lowering the profit on boxes for retail makes this situation even worse. Current inflation is just adding up to the issue.
So yeah, this new money grab by GW hits my mood hard.
Discounters have lowered the profit expectation for independent sector for the last decade or so.
GW CAN and SHOULD be offering more in the way of marketing and support for B&M stores with gaming space.
Can you clarify something for me?
You seem to be against online retailers or discount online retailers. May I ask why?
McDougall Designs wrote: You seem to be against online retailers or discount online retailers. May I ask why?
Probably because they're parasites on the hobby. They use the fact that they have none of the expenses of a real store to sell just barely above GW's price, which means that anyone with an offline store has to either sell GW stuff at a loss or rely on charity donations from people who feel guilty about using the gaming space without buying anything. And those stores are vital to the long-term success of the hobby. If they stop supporting GW games it will be catastrophic for the community and GW's own stores are not even remotely close to being able to make up for the loss. The online discounters, on the other hand, offer absolutely nothing of value to the community. They can only take advantage of the work real stores have done to build a market and try to extract as much personal profit as possible before destroying it.
Tyel wrote: Does anyone buy direct from GW any more?
It just seems to me that more or less the day I realised I could get stuff 20-25% cheaper, any direct purchases ceased. Its a massive discount.
GW could try and fight this (i.e. spend £100, get 10% off or something) - but to my knowledge they never have.
If the stores cut the discount by 5%, I'm still going to buy from them over GW.
I used to visit the local Battle Bunker, even when US discounts were 20-25%, because it was such a welcoming, dreamland of a store. I stopped visiting after they sold off 3/4 of the bunker and turned it into a Battle Closet, and replaced all the staff with one new guy. There’s no reason to go there or buy direct any more.
(Although I haven’t bought new GW minis in years, and even second-hand purchases/trades are few and far between. I’m a former whale, and now I don’t even care about (or hate) GW enough to troll most threads. Price threads that can affect the shops I do care about and prices of ranges I still buy will draw me out still.)
well, than GW should have a larger margin for those stores so they don't make a loss while being a key stone to the GW hobby, and not reducing it
Gue'vesa Emissary wrote: If they stop supporting GW games it will be catastrophic for the community
not sure if it will be a problem for "the" community
"everyone" is 3D printing models and pirating rules anyway, while the store sells the GW stuff on a loss
so not carrying those won't have a big change anyway other than not making a loss by selling it and instead of stocking GW, going with 3D printing supplies and other games would keep "the" community alive
McDougall Designs wrote: You seem to be against online retailers or discount online retailers. May I ask why?
Probably because they're parasites on the hobby. They use the fact that they have none of the expenses of a real store to sell just barely above GW's price, which means that anyone with an offline store has to either sell GW stuff at a loss or rely on charity donations from people who feel guilty about using the gaming space without buying anything. And those stores are vital to the long-term success of the hobby. If they stop supporting GW games it will be catastrophic for the community and GW's own stores are not even remotely close to being able to make up for the loss. The online discounters, on the other hand, offer absolutely nothing of value to the community. They can only take advantage of the work real stores have done to build a market and try to extract as much personal profit as possible before destroying it.
Where do you live that the store has everything you want to buy? The second I have to order something, be it at the store or online, I will choose the online option that is cheaper and directly delivers to me.
Additionally, there is no store in my area where you can play. The local club is renting space somewhere else and the members pay for it. And most of the time I play at my home, anyway.
So online stores aren't the leches declared above in my area.
Tyel wrote: Does anyone buy direct from GW any more?
It just seems to me that more or less the day I realised I could get stuff 20-25% cheaper, any direct purchases ceased. Its a massive discount.
GW could try and fight this (i.e. spend £100, get 10% off or something) - but to my knowledge they never have.
If the stores cut the discount by 5%, I'm still going to buy from them over GW.
I buy from GW direct as well. Often they're the only place I can get certain miniatures, whether because they're direct buy, or they're older or Specialist stuff that stores don't carry. I also don't have any stores within 45 minutes in any direction that carry any kind of stock I'm looking for.
I also think what is being missed here is that in the UK, you (meaning general you, not you you) get the lowest starting RRP for GW models. Then, you can get 20-25% off of the model, and reasonable or free shipping from discounters. In the US, we pay $1.5/$1.6x the GBP price, which is way higher than the exchange rate (and heaven help the Aussies), usually only manage a 15% discount, if you're lucky, then pay State Sales tax on top (and keep in mind, that starting UK price also includes VAT, its not like GW is selling the models to stores in the US sans the VAT). Plus then I'm usually paying shipping on the item, which removes the savings of the discount, unless I'm buying $100 or $200 at one go, which I never do.
So, I can get that one model from GW, full price, with free shipping? I'll go that route.
I've also mostly moved on from GW unless its the odd model to play non-GW games with, or complete a collection, or to paint. And independents rarely sell the stuff I'm looking for - Artizan, Copplestone, Crusader, Perry metals, Bombshell, etc., so I HAVE to use online vendors or direct, since the stores that do carry them are several states away.
*edit: and oh, yeah, I don't game in stores, so that is zero value add for me. I game at home or at a friend's home. Many stores I've visited have the "pay to play" model, and I'm not doing that, period.
Brickfix wrote: The second I have to order something, be it at the store or online, I will choose the online option that is cheaper and directly delivers to me.
I buy a lot of my stuff off of Amazon. I will pay a little more to one of the Amazon third party sellers that has a better rating and one that I've had a good experience with (and if they have an option for shipping by Amazon or by the retailer, I always choose the retailer).
Brickfix wrote: Where do you live that the store has everything you want to buy? The second I have to order something, be it at the store or online, I will choose the online option that is cheaper and directly delivers to me.
Additionally, there is no store in my area where you can play. The local club is renting space somewhere else and the members pay for it. And most of the time I play at my home, anyway.
So online stores aren't the leches declared above in my area.
What a bizarre hot take.
Some of the online retailers also carry used items, and that's the only way I buy GW stuff these days. I'll do a search, see what's out there, and then see if I can find a vendor who has a selection of things that interest me so I can save on shipping. Often this goes outside the GW realm, so I might combine some broken Chaos bikes (I love broken models, such a great value!) and an OOP board game.
BTW, I'm old enough to remember life before online sales of any sort. Gaming sellers typically featured monochrome catalogs with order forms and only took money orders as payment.
I also recall how very reluctantly GW was to embrace the internet in the first place. They had those catalog forms in WD for years after people were buying online.
Tyel wrote: Does anyone buy direct from GW any more?
Yes.
Why do I??
Sometimes GW has something I want that doesn't ship to my FLGS. Like made to order items. Or FW.
Sometimes I want something & they're the last place that has any.
McDougall Designs wrote: You seem to be against online retailers or discount online retailers. May I ask why?
Probably because they're parasites on the hobby. They use the fact that they have none of the expenses of a real store to sell just barely above GW's price, which means that anyone with an offline store has to either sell GW stuff at a loss or rely on charity donations from people who feel guilty about using the gaming space without buying anything. And those stores are vital to the long-term success of the hobby. If they stop supporting GW games it will be catastrophic for the community and GW's own stores are not even remotely close to being able to make up for the loss. The online discounters, on the other hand, offer absolutely nothing of value to the community. They can only take advantage of the work real stores have done to build a market and try to extract as much personal profit as possible before destroying it.
They offer access and affordability.
What access? You can buy everything direct from GW and the discount store doesn't offer you access to a place to play or a community to play with. And that 20% discount is never going to be the difference between being able to afford something or not.
McDougall Designs wrote: You seem to be against online retailers or discount online retailers. May I ask why?
Probably because they're parasites on the hobby. They use the fact that they have none of the expenses of a real store to sell just barely above GW's price, which means that anyone with an offline store has to either sell GW stuff at a loss or rely on charity donations from people who feel guilty about using the gaming space without buying anything. And those stores are vital to the long-term success of the hobby. If they stop supporting GW games it will be catastrophic for the community and GW's own stores are not even remotely close to being able to make up for the loss. The online discounters, on the other hand, offer absolutely nothing of value to the community. They can only take advantage of the work real stores have done to build a market and try to extract as much personal profit as possible before destroying it.
They offer access and affordability.
What access? You can buy everything direct from GW and the discount store doesn't offer you access to a place to play or a community to play with. And that 20% discount is never going to be the difference between being able to afford something or not.
If you buy from GW directly how is that supporting the place you play at or the community you play with? It's no different? And yes, 20% off does make things more affordable, very obviously.
Dudeface wrote: If you buy from GW directly how is that supporting the place you play at or the community you play with? It's no different?
It's not different, but that's not the point. A real store adds accessibility vs. buying direct from GW's online store because it lets you buy stuff for immediate pickup and gives you a place to play the game. An online discount store has no accessibility advantage over buying direct from GW. One is adding value, the other is just a parasite on the hobby.
And yes, 20% off does make things more affordable, very obviously.
Not really. If you can't afford a thing at full MSRP you can't afford it at a mere 20% discount. You might like the cheaper prices but it doesn't make a practical difference in whether or not you can afford the game.
I'm 12, I got a $50 gift voucher for my birthday. If the voucher is valid at a store that offers 20% off RRP Vs one that doesn't, which store would l allow me to afford the $60 RRP kit I want in?
Your point hinges on a spectacular lack of vision relative to the many different factors that could inform a customer's ability or desire to buy an item, not least if which whether they are even interested in collecting an army.
Dudeface wrote: If you buy from GW directly how is that supporting the place you play at or the community you play with? It's no different?
It's not different, but that's not the point. A real store adds accessibility vs. buying direct from GW's online store because it lets you buy stuff for immediate pickup and gives you a place to play the game. An online discount store has no accessibility advantage over buying direct from GW. One is adding value, the other is just a parasite on the hobby.
And yes, 20% off does make things more affordable, very obviously.
Not really. If you can't afford a thing at full MSRP you can't afford it at a mere 20% discount. You might like the cheaper prices but it doesn't make a practical difference in whether or not you can afford the game.
So if I don't have a LGS or a GW store in town, why should I pay more to order from GW? The places I usually order from online have multiple physical locations that provide gaming, GWs own trade discount is structured to provide bigger discounts to stores who have gaming areas iirc.
If I wasn't buying some of the stuff at 25-20% I wouldn't be buying it. Or it'd be 2nd hand repair jobs, which also wouldn't benefit my lgs.
I'm sorry but you're talking out your ass on all accounts.
Not really. If you can't afford a thing at full MSRP you can't afford it at a mere 20% discount. You might like the cheaper prices but it doesn't make a practical difference in whether or not you can afford the game.
You might have unlimited cash. Don't make assumption everybody else has same benefit.
Dudeface wrote: If you buy from GW directly how is that supporting the place you play at or the community you play with? It's no different?
It's not different, but that's not the point. A real store adds accessibility vs. buying direct from GW's online store because it lets you buy stuff for immediate pickup and gives you a place to play the game. An online discount store has no accessibility advantage over buying direct from GW. One is adding value, the other is just a parasite on the hobby.
And yes, 20% off does make things more affordable, very obviously.
Not really. If you can't afford a thing at full MSRP you can't afford it at a mere 20% discount. You might like the cheaper prices but it doesn't make a practical difference in whether or not you can afford the game.
Sometimes I will look at a GW price and its just too high for what I perceive the value is for the item. A 20-25% discount on it move it back in to the "expensive but tolerable range. So If that online discounter didnt exist, I would not buy the item at all.
And online discounters will sometimes break up sets... So if I only want one faction out of a boxed set, Likely I would not buy the whole set if that is the case... So the online discounter is the only reason/way I can get it in the first place.
And in that line of thought, I have had catastrophic failures on minis or lost 1 of a unit... and am able to buy single figures (or in the case of non GW single sprues) and replace that one I am missing without having to buy the whole set all over again.
I also set myself a monthly budget. I have a separate bank account and direct deposit a certain amount per paycheck for hobby funds. While i certainly could go over this, I wont. And the 20% - 25% definitely helps stay in that budget and keeps the wife happy as well.
There are plenty of things I've looked at and gone "Man, I sure would love a set of those. But that price is insane!", and then suddenly a store does a 30% off "clearance" and that item is back on the menu.
That's what happened with the Slaangors I bought. For what you get they were too expensive, and suddenly they were slightly more than 30% off. I bought two boxes.
Dudeface wrote: So if I don't have a LGS or a GW store in town, why should I pay more to order from GW? The places I usually order from online have multiple physical locations that provide gaming, GWs own trade discount is structured to provide bigger discounts to stores who have gaming areas iirc.
You're still missing the point. It's not about whether an individual makes a choice to buy from GW direct vs. a discount store, it's about what the discount store adds to the hobby. When GW's online store exists and allows you to buy anything you want with a few clicks adding a different online store selling the same items provides no accessibility that wasn't already there.
If I wasn't buying some of the stuff at 25-20% I wouldn't be buying it. Or it'd be 2nd hand repair jobs, which also wouldn't benefit my lgs.
Your personal opinion on whether you like a price =/= affordability.
Not really. If you can't afford a thing at full MSRP you can't afford it at a mere 20% discount. You might like the cheaper prices but it doesn't make a practical difference in whether or not you can afford the game.
You might have unlimited cash. Don't make assumption everybody else has same benefit.
If you can afford something at 80% of MSRP you can afford it at 100% of MSRP by saving up for a bit longer.
Dudeface wrote: So if I don't have a LGS or a GW store in town, why should I pay more to order from GW? The places I usually order from online have multiple physical locations that provide gaming, GWs own trade discount is structured to provide bigger discounts to stores who have gaming areas iirc.
You're still missing the point. It's not about whether an individual makes a choice to buy from GW direct vs. a discount store, it's about what the discount store adds to the hobby. When GW's online store exists and allows you to buy anything you want with a few clicks adding a different online store selling the same items provides no accessibility that wasn't already there.
The discount store allows you to buy the same product at a reduced price compared to the online GW store. Both stores online require the same number of clicks (broadly speaking) and the same personal information and details from you. So if the discount store offers a better price, then the attraction is that you can buy things at that reduced price. So that means you might get more things for the same amount of money; or get the same number of things you were going to get anyway for less cost leaving you more money in your pocket for other things.
If a 3rd party store offers no price difference to the GW store then the attractions might be stocking levels or local play/promotional elements.
However if the online 3rd party store offers no discount; offers the buyer no playspace or physical benefits in their area and the GW store has stuff in stock then it doesn't matter which the customer chooses to buy from.
Overread wrote: The discount store allows you to buy the same product at a reduced price compared to the online GW store. Both stores online require the same number of clicks (broadly speaking) and the same personal information and details from you. So if the discount store offers a better price, then the attraction is that you can buy things at that reduced price. So that means you might get more things for the same amount of money; or get the same number of things you were going to get anyway for less cost leaving you more money in your pocket for other things.
That's a reason to buy from the discount store but it's not accessibility.
An accessibility advantage would be if, say, GW did not ship to a particular country but the discount store did. Then the discount store would be offering something that doesn't already exist and adding value to the hobby. But as it is this is not the case in any major market and the comment about discount stores being parasites stands.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: So, many retailers offer free shipping over £75ish in the UK, with wayland off the top of my head offering free over £20, though they do have a mostly lower discount rate than most. I assume wayland may raise their minimum order for shipping.
However if prices do come closer to RRP of GW, I wonder how many people will actually switch to doing small orders with GW (as opposed to having to buy more products to hit the free shipping totals with third parties).
So if Wayland raise their free shipping, to say £35-40. Could people buy more direct from GW for say, a paint order, or just one box. GW is free shipping over £20.
I would guess GW may raise their free shipping charge as well, with their costs going up, having to pay labour on packing, shipping cost in general, utility costs, website maintenance, business processes costs etc. It may not actually make them that much more money in the end, as if consumers go away from FLGS's and online FLGS's, and switch to consuming via GW direct, the logistics and costs that could involve could mean any increase in profit is negligible.
GW already have doubled their free shipping limit to £40 €50 they quietly put it up from the 23rd.
Overread wrote: The discount store allows you to buy the same product at a reduced price compared to the online GW store. Both stores online require the same number of clicks (broadly speaking) and the same personal information and details from you. So if the discount store offers a better price, then the attraction is that you can buy things at that reduced price. So that means you might get more things for the same amount of money; or get the same number of things you were going to get anyway for less cost leaving you more money in your pocket for other things.
That's a reason to buy from the discount store but it's not accessibility.
An accessibility advantage would be if, say, GW did not ship to a particular country but the discount store did. Then the discount store would be offering something that doesn't already exist and adding value to the hobby. But as it is this is not the case in any major market and the comment about discount stores being parasites stands.
Thing is almost every wargame discount store I know of provides gaming space and tables. Places like Wayland and Firestorm games are pretty huge by wargame standards in the UK. They also have physical shops which can be huge for local recruitment of new gamers and support, which can then directly support local player groups even if the shop hasn't got their own playspace.
It's the same reason GW has highstreet stores and doesn't just shut them all down and trade online only.
Dudeface wrote: If you buy from GW directly how is that supporting the place you play at or the community you play with? It's no different?
It's not different, but that's not the point. A real store adds accessibility vs. buying direct from GW's online store because it lets you buy stuff for immediate pickup and gives you a place to play the game. An online discount store has no accessibility advantage over buying direct from GW. One is adding value, the other is just a parasite on the hobby.
And yes, 20% off does make things more affordable, very obviously.
Not really. If you can't afford a thing at full MSRP you can't afford it at a mere 20% discount. You might like the cheaper prices but it doesn't make a practical difference in whether or not you can afford the game.
Overread wrote: Thing is almost every wargame discount store I know of provides gaming space and tables. Places like Wayland and Firestorm games are pretty huge by wargame standards in the UK. They also have physical shops which can be huge for local recruitment of new gamers and support, which can then directly support local player groups even if the shop hasn't got their own playspace.
It's the same reason GW has highstreet stores and doesn't just shut them all down and trade online only.
Do they? Maybe this is a UK thing because in the US when people talk about online discount stores it's purely an online store they'll never visit in person. Maybe the discount store's warehouse has a cash register so they technically count as a physical store for GW's TOS but the vast majority of their business is online-only.
In any case, if the online discount store is genuinely running a real store as a significant percentage of their business and supporting an offline community then that store wouldn't be a parasite on the hobby.
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ccs wrote: You just don't get tired of being wrong, do you?
Do you want to offer anything constructive here or just rude and condescending spam?
Overread wrote: Thing is almost every wargame discount store I know of provides gaming space and tables. Places like Wayland and Firestorm games are pretty huge by wargame standards in the UK. They also have physical shops which can be huge for local recruitment of new gamers and support, which can then directly support local player groups even if the shop hasn't got their own playspace.
It's the same reason GW has highstreet stores and doesn't just shut them all down and trade online only.
Do they? Maybe this is a UK thing because in the US when people talk about online discount stores it's purely an online store they'll never visit in person. Maybe the discount store's warehouse has a cash register so they technically count as a physical store for GW's TOS but the vast majority of their business is online-only.
In any case, if the online discount store is genuinely running a real store as a significant percentage of their business and supporting an offline community then that store wouldn't be a parasite on the hobby.
Pretty sure it's an American thing, here in Australia our online stores have actual physical locations with gaming areas even if it's just in the warehouse.
Pretty sure it's an American thing, here in Australia our online stores have actual physical locations with gaming areas even if it's just in the warehouse.
Same in the UK, most major 3rd party websites double up as physical stores and many have gaming areas too.
It depends. Miniature Market and Games N Stuff here in the states have physical locations. Living in Maryland I have never been to Miniature Market's storefront but have been to Games N Stuff's as its only about an hour away. I used to have 2 GW's near me, but both closed. There are 2 games stores within 20 minutes of me. Both have areas for in shop play. I have purchased from both, but dont play in store and the one that is closest to me fumbled both times I tried to preorder somthing through them.
Smokestack wrote: It depends. Miniature Market and Games N Stuff here in the states have physical locations. Living in Maryland I have never been to Miniature Market's storefront but have been to Games N Stuff's as its only about an hour away. I used to have 2 GW's near me, but both closed. There are 2 games stores within 20 minutes of me. Both have areas for in shop play. I have purchased from both, but dont play in store and the one that is closest to me fumbled both times I tried to preorder somthing through them.
Miniature Market has 2 brick and mortar stores now, plenty of play area too. Played a board game at one location today with some friends, they usually have events and tournaments every weekend.
I offer accessibility to ranges that your FLGS may not carry. Fireforge, mantic, etc. I offer all of my items at some form of discount. And you can get everything you want from different manufacturers all in one cart and one charge on your payment option of choice. If you email me, I'll even work with you on special arrangements because I can offer that.
I eventually intend to open a brick and mortar location with table space. As of this moment, that is financially unfeasible. So I opened an online shop, to still fulfill my intended goals of selling miniatures and hobby supplies at affordable rates.
I have been denied trade accounts because I do not have a brick and mortar location. I have been unable to pick up Vallejo paints to sell because I do not have a brick and mortar location. GW flat out won't return my emails because I do not pay rent on a building or lease a space.
I still want to sell model kits. I want to sell them at a discount, because as a hobbyist myself I've become accustomed to purchasing from discount retailers in order to make my poor-mans hobby dollar stretch a little further.
Should I be denied business accounts, simply because I have been unable to raise capital needed for a building/rent? Maybe, but I think that, and calling how I make my money a parasitic leech on the hobby, is a bit of a stretch.
You're turning a profit and not hosting a game club with 10 to 20 game tables for the community? Straight to jail.
Not giving GW full price in crisp new bills, plus a big tip on top because you're so grateful they manage to somehow keep a small and faithful community going based purely on their goodwill? Jail.
Selling discounted items to people in towns with gaming groups but no market big enough to bear a brick and mortar store? You'd better believe it, jail.
But do you offer access to ranges I can't buy direct from their respective manufacturers?
Either way that's still kind of off-topic for a discussion of GW sales. Maybe some obscure minor product lines have accessibility issues where even discount sellers with no retail store can add genuine value but that's certainly not the case with GW products.
I want to sell them at a discount, because as a hobbyist myself I've become accustomed to purchasing from discount retailers in order to make my poor-mans hobby dollar stretch a little further.
So you're in "business" to act as a charity? Is this intended to be your primary job or just a side thing to keep you busy on weekends?
Should I be denied business accounts, simply because I have been unable to raise capital needed for a building/rent?
Yes. Physical retail stores are vital for the long-term health of both GW and the hobby as a whole. Requiring a physical location is important protection against online sellers undercutting the real stores and driving them out of business (or at least getting them to stop carrying GW products).
You do understand that these policies are for the benefit of the community as a whole, right? And that they favor small independent stores over parasitic online sellers that will gladly kill a game if it means 5% more profit this quarter?
I'm amazed you people are still entertaining this absolutely trash opinion that's yet to adequately explain how discounts are parasitical to the community at large or why their personal bugbear bears any importance or adds anything to the community.
Platuan4th wrote: I'm amazed you people are still entertaining this absolutely trash opinion that's yet to adequately explain how discounts are parasitical to the community at large.
I explained it very clearly: online discount sellers offer no support for a game and undercut the real stores the game depends on. They're extracting short-term profits at the expense of the long-term health of the game and the community as a whole and GW absolutely needs to keep limits on them so the real stores can survive. I genuinely do not understand why people here are so eager to support the gaming equivalent of Walmart coming in and driving all the local stores out of business.
You do understand that these policies are for the benefit of the community as a whole, right? And that they favor small independent stores over parasitic online sellers that will gladly kill a game if it means 5% more profit this quarter?
This policy benefits nothing but GW's bottom line and in fact HURTS the community by hurting stores.
Platuan4th wrote: I'm amazed you people are still entertaining this absolutely trash opinion that's yet to adequately explain how discounts are parasitical to the community at large.
I explained it very clearly: online discount sellers offer no support for a game and undercut the real stores the game depends on. They're extracting short-term profits at the expense of the long-term health of the game and the community as a whole and GW absolutely needs to keep limits on them so the real stores can survive. I genuinely do not understand why people here are so eager to support the gaming equivalent of Walmart coming in and driving all the local stores out of business.
They offer just as much support as any other store, even more so for areas that lack local stores. Just because you can't play at them does NOT mean they don't offer support and you're the only person that can't realize or accept that fact. Hell, my local offers bigger discounts than online stores through their clearance GW table just so they're not sitting on merchandise they haven't sold in years. They're nothing like Walmart that literally predatory targets locations to shut local stores, a thing GW stores themselves do.
Platuan4th wrote: This policy benefits nothing but GW's bottom line and in fact HURTS the community by hurting stores.
It hurts parasites far more than real stores. The closer to MSRP everyone is forced to sell the better for real stores.
They offer just as much support as any other store, even more so for areas that lack local stores. They're nothing like Walmart that literally predatory targets locations to shut local stores, a thing GW stores themselves do.
Oh really? Online-only sellers are giving a place to play and other people to play with?
Gue'vesa Emissary wrote: Oh really? Online-only sellers are giving a place to play and other people to play with?
Yes. Online sellers have to have a brick and mortar storefront to be able to buy from GW. As a general fact, the online sellers tend to have the biggest play areas.
GW, in contrast, don't have play areas anymore in Spain, only demo mini tables, and are one man operations. By your definitions, they are the ones leeching off from the hobby.
Oh really? Online-only sellers are giving a place to play and other people to play with?
Stop being deliberately obtuse.
I could say the same to you. Stop pretending that an online store offers anywhere near the level of support a real store provides.
To someone without a "real store", they offer literally the same value. Your inability to grasp that concept is why you're being obtuse and why you're not worth responding to. I'm out, someone else can beat their head against your concrete wall.
Oh really? Online-only sellers are giving a place to play and other people to play with?
Stop being deliberately obtuse.
I could say the same to you. Stop pretending that an online store offers anywhere near the level of support a real store provides.
Well McDougal provides support, but in a different way. He has shown different companies miniatures in comparison to others, merely because people asked him if x bits fit with Y bits. I asked him how Mantics haflings stacked next to Wargames Atlantic's, and he talked me out of a purchase. That is some pretty good support. Something neither GW nor my LGS (non friendly LGS at that) would do. I am not quite sure how that qualifies as being a parasite, and also I am quite sure that he is not sitting on a fat stack of money laughing about his grand scheme to put local shops out of business. The One stop aspect of his shop is also very supportive as it means I am not paying for shipping 5 times for what I want.
It may not be a "place to play" but is that the only measure of a good shop? If so, does that mean its ok to buy video games on-line vs in stores because those stores dont have places for me to play? Or shop for groceries on-line vs buying at the Food Lion down the street because I cant eat in those stores?
xttz wrote: Can we all agree to just stop engaging with the obvious troll?
Sorry, I couldn't help myself. I'll try harder.
I'll also include GW shareholders in my prayers - or rather their dividends, which I may have lowered by going on ebay rather than direct to GW. Forgive me Tom Kirby, for I have sinned...
It may not be a "place to play" but is that the only measure of a good shop? If so, does that mean its ok to buy video games on-line vs in stores because those stores dont have places for me to play? Or shop for groceries on-line vs buying at the Food Lion down the street because I cant eat in those stores?
Hell, most people don't play at stores, so a store providing gaming space isn't value for those people anyway.
One can only imagine what this guy thinks of the wildly successful oneline sales groups, like the Facebook groups, that aren't even stores yet offer discounts.
xttz wrote: Can we all agree to just stop engaging with the obvious troll?
Troll would imply he's just doing it to get a rise out of everyone.
Platuan4th wrote: I'm amazed you people are still entertaining this absolutely trash opinion that's yet to adequately explain how discounts are parasitical to the community at large.
I explained it very clearly: online discount sellers offer no support for a game and undercut the real stores the game depends on. They're extracting short-term profits at the expense of the long-term health of the game and the community as a whole and GW absolutely needs to keep limits on them so the real stores can survive. I genuinely do not understand why people here are so eager to support the gaming equivalent of Walmart coming in and driving all the local stores out of business.
If I was the gaming equivalent of Walmart I'd need several billion dollars, hundreds of employees and locations across 50 us states plus.
Let us assume that offering deep discounts with or without a physical storefront is parasitical.
Let us assume that many of us require elbow length rubber gloves to buy and antibiotics afterwards.
This is fair business anyway..
We do NOT live under a planned state economy with set prices for everything. If someone wants to sell Warhammer on the cheap, don't mess with them, and don't mess with people who buy. Economic freedom is open for anyone who has market access, and the internet is a big market.
This is the wrong hill to die on for those who want to see consumer ethics. Of all the things to complain about with what else is going on, though in fairness we cant discuss those topics here. McDougall Designs and his evidently insidious vile naughty spooky evil practices or others of his ilk will not cause GW to crumble, and some low income guy will afford to get his models.
All I need a store to do is sell me product, however they want to do it.
And, actually, McDougall does offer more than going direct to the manufacturer/game company. He offers single sprues of their offerings, which is great for kit bashing or checking out the models before a proper purchase (having recently ordered a bunch of sprues myself).
The only “value” I need, as a member of the community, is for a store to sell me stuff. The End.
Cruentus wrote: Again, I don’t play at stores, like most people.
The only “value” I need, as a member of the community, is for a store to sell me stuff. The End.
It kind of sounds like he is saying that to be part of the community you HAVE to play at a store. So you are not part of the community… I am not either.
But do you offer access to ranges I can't buy direct from their respective manufacturers? no. Every manufacturer I have ever seen now has an online store of their own so you can buy direct.
Either way that's still kind of off-topic for a discussion of GW sales. Maybe some obscure minor product lines have accessibility issues where even discount sellers with no retail store can add genuine value but that's certainly not the case with GW products.
Define "obscure" please. I carry or can access most of the "front of industry" plastics providers.
I want to sell them at a discount, because as a hobbyist myself I've become accustomed to purchasing from discount retailers in order to make my poor-mans hobby dollar stretch a little further.
So you're in "business" to act as a charity? Is this intended to be your primary job or just a side thing to keep you busy on weekends? no. I identified that customers would probably be of similar mindset, and want to purchase kits at a discount. That's all this was saying.
Should I be denied business accounts, simply because I have been unable to raise capital needed for a building/rent?
Yes. Physical retail stores are vital for the long-term health of both GW and the hobby as a whole. Requiring a physical location is important protection against online sellers undercutting the real stores and driving them out of business (or at least getting them to stop carrying GW products).
You are stating agreement. Did you consider the paragraph before this one stating I want to open a physical location but have been unable to get capital. Thus I decided to open my business regardless, and do sales online until I can afford a physical location?
You do understand that these policies are for the benefit of the community as a whole, right? And that they favor small independent stores over parasitic online sellers that will gladly kill a game if it means 5% more profit this quarter?
Would you please define what you consider the "community"?
Cruentus wrote:Again, I don’t play at stores, like most people.
All I need a store to do is sell me product, however they want to do it.
And, actually, McDougall does offer more than going direct to the manufacturer/game company. He offers single sprues of their offerings, which is great for kit bashing or checking out the models before a proper purchase (having recently ordered a bunch of sprues myself).
and I'll take custom requests for single sprues if you need something specific.
The only “value” I need, as a member of the community, is for a store to sell me stuff. The End.
Sure. It's legal. But GW is not obligated to provide them with inventory on favorable terms, and we are not obligated to call them anything other than parasites.
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Smokestack wrote: It kind of sounds like he is saying that to be part of the community you HAVE to play at a store. So you are not part of the community… I am not either.
No, that's not what I'm saying. But the fact that you don't want a particular form of support doesn't change the fact that the real store is offering support that an online-only discount seller doesn't provide.
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McDougall Designs wrote: no. Every manufacturer I have ever seen now has an online store of their own so you can buy direct.
Then you aren't offering accessibility. There may be other things you offer but in terms of accessibility you've added no value compared to what was already there.
Would you please define what you consider the "community"?
The people who play the game, paint miniatures, etc. Physical retail stores are good for the community, if we were limited to only online discount sellers the game would almost certainly die. And the online discounters trying to do do their best Walmart impression by undercutting real stores and discouraging them from carrying GW products would quite happily kill the game if they could profit from it in the short term.
Sure. It's legal. But GW is not obligated to provide them with inventory on favorable terms, and we are not obligated to call them anything other than parasites.
Clearly you are not a troll, despite accusations.
You believe in your cause and to your credit do explain yourself.
It is just that nearly everyone disagrees with you. I will say this for you, you stick to your points, try to state your case and don't intentionally offend.
If I have a complaint at your opinion it is that using the term 'parasite' is unfair.
These businessmen are undercutting brick and mortar stores for toy soldiers, not jacking up the prices of essential medicines. Undercutting competition is fair game in business. If one goes into business and a competitor undercuts one, THEY ARE DOING NOTHING WRONG.
You are also wrong.
1. GW is obligated to provide inventory on the same terms as other retailers, it is a legal requirement to do so. they can refuse service in totality, but cannot starve out some distributors and favour others with different price structures. As far as I know GW have been compliant with the law.
2. There is no 'we', only you are calling them parasites, and you are obligated to not use offensive terminology as one of the people in your category is present and has the right to being treated with common dignity. Again this complaint is made lightly as I do not thing you are making a moral judgement of forum members, but are merely being energetic in your (misplaced) belief in market equity of pricing.
Orlanth wrote: If one goes into business and a competitor undercuts one, THEY ARE DOING NOTHING WRONG.
Legally? Correct. But from the point of view of what is best for me, and for the community as a whole? They absolutely are doing something wrong. From their point of view they are maximizing profits, from my point of view they are parasites whose failure will not be mourned. They are certainly not as bad as some other businesses but their existence is still a bad thing unless you're one of their shareholders.
You are also wrong.
1. GW is obligated to provide inventory on the same terms as other retailers, it is a legal requirement to do so. they can refuse service in totality, but cannot starve out some distributors and favour others with different price structures. As far as I know GW have been compliant with the law.
It's true that GW has obligations regarding inventory and discrimination but that doesn't mean they're required to support online discount sellers. They aren't required to sell at a percentage of MSRP that enables the discount seller's desired business model, and they are clearly allowed to have requirements to be eligible to receive product at prices below MSRP. If GW wanted to, say, refuse service to anyone who doesn't have at least 10 6x4 tables worth of gaming space they would absolutely be allowed to do that and it would be no different from their existing requirements to have a physical store location, carry the basic paint rack and starter boxes, etc.
2. There is no 'we', only you are calling them parasites, and you are obligated to not use offensive terminology as one of the people in your category is present and has the right to being treated with common dignity. Again this complaint is made lightly as I do not thing you are making a moral judgement of forum members, but are merely being energetic in your (misplaced) belief in market equity of pricing.
Who is it that is present? The one store owner I'm aware of is not primarily a GW seller and appears to be running more of a small weekend hobby project than the Walmart-of-gaming online discount sellers that dominate the GW market.
Orlanth wrote: If one goes into business and a competitor undercuts one, THEY ARE DOING NOTHING WRONG.
Legally? Correct. But from the point of view of what is best for me, and for the community as a whole? They absolutely are doing something wrong. From their point of view they are maximizing profits, from my point of view they are parasites whose failure will not be mourned. They are certainly not as bad as some other businesses but their existence is still a bad thing unless you're one of their shareholders.
You are also wrong.
1. GW is obligated to provide inventory on the same terms as other retailers, it is a legal requirement to do so. they can refuse service in totality, but cannot starve out some distributors and favour others with different price structures. As far as I know GW have been compliant with the law.
It's true that GW has obligations regarding inventory and discrimination but that doesn't mean they're required to support online discount sellers. They aren't required to sell at a percentage of MSRP that enables the discount seller's desired business model, and they are clearly allowed to have requirements to be eligible to receive product at prices below MSRP. If GW wanted to, say, refuse service to anyone who doesn't have at least 10 6x4 tables worth of gaming space they would absolutely be allowed to do that and it would be no different from their existing requirements to have a physical store location, carry the basic paint rack and starter boxes, etc.
2. There is no 'we', only you are calling them parasites, and you are obligated to not use offensive terminology as one of the people in your category is present and has the right to being treated with common dignity. Again this complaint is made lightly as I do not thing you are making a moral judgement of forum members, but are merely being energetic in your (misplaced) belief in market equity of pricing.
Who is it that is present? The one store owner I'm aware of is not primarily a GW seller and appears to be running more of a small weekend hobby project than the Walmart-of-gaming online discount sellers that dominate the GW market.
He was meaning me. And no, this is not a small weekend hobby gig for me.
This is my full time, live-off-of income.
I'm glad you think I have shareholders and sales enough to warrant investment. If that's the case, please tell me where they are and my aforementioned i-want-to-open a brick and mortar store capital issues should disappear overnight.
I may be a one man show. I may be small. But I'm still an online discount retailer. There are multiple types and sizes of businesses in this industry and you have decided to use a broad brush in the stroke of your opinion.
Orlanth wrote: If one goes into business and a competitor undercuts one, THEY ARE DOING NOTHING WRONG.
Legally? Correct. But from the point of view of what is best for me, and for the community as a whole? They absolutely are doing something wrong.
You have your business ethics back to front.
1. In business to undercut ones competitor is fair game, because that is how you derive a robust and dynamic marketplace. The alternative is to have business cartel structures, which results in price control and strong-arming consumers. Undercutting appears savage, but is in reality healthy.
2. Undercutting helps the consumer, a savvy consumer will compare prices and shop accordingly, price equity disables this, disenfranchises the citizenry and penalises the less well off.
3. Free market pricing helps small businesses thrive. While big business has the advantage of economies of scale, small businesses have advantage in economies of management. Small businesses can be more dynamic as the management structure and the staff frontage are adjacent or one and the same. Small business can adapt on the fly and thus compete, often it is the only advantage they have. Price controls either from lax distribution legislation or direct pricing enforcement stifles this advantage and drives away small businesses.
I understand that you are making an ethical argument against freedom of pricing, I acknowledge that you are trying to do good. But you really have not thought through the consequences of your dogmas and why if they were implementable would be catastrophic.
Now I will add that it is unlikely you will get your way because cooler heads will prevail, but social pressure in the direction of madness is part of the modern culture, stranger things have happened, and basic business ethics are no longer taught. All level access to a free market is a soft power application of democracy, and a relic of a deeper wiser past, it can easily appear 'unfair' when looked at through a two dimensional perspective of social justice..
Your arguments could be described as symptomic of a 'useful idiot for corporatism', though I doubt you have been spoon fed them for purpose. This is the problem with ideological approaches to business, it all looks good until the little guy is cancelled and big players are given free reign.
I should ask though, where did you get your ideas?
Sounds like a lot of you weren't around back in the wild west times when online stores sold stuff for 40-45% off. There was absolutely a reason GW instituted a MAPP on their products. There would not have been many stores that continued to stock their products and actually sell them, if that hadn't happened.
That said, the MAPP they put in place, at least here in the US, leveled the playing field between online vs. in store. Both of them serve a roll in the community, for various reasons.
Discounts are good for the consumer. Too large of a discount is bad for physical stores. I'm not sure why that is such a strange concept to grasp?
Orlanth wrote: 1. In business to undercut ones competitor is fair game, because that is how you derive a robust and dynamic marketplace. The alternative is to have business cartel structures, which results in price control and strong-arming consumers. Undercutting appears savage, but is in reality healthy.
That's why discount sellers are motivated to undercut the competition. But I don't care about what is good for the discount sellers, I care about what is best for my side of the transaction: the 40k community. And the 40k community would be better off with the discount sellers heavily restricted or driven out of the market.
2. Undercutting helps the consumer, a savvy consumer will compare prices and shop accordingly, price equity disables this, disenfranchises the citizenry and penalises the less well off.
In many cases, yes, but not all. When undercutting results in the destruction of necessary support it is bad for the consumer in the long run. Saving 50% on 40k models for a year doesn't help you all that much if the result is GW going out of business and 40k no longer being an active game.
3. Free market pricing helps small businesses thrive.
Who is talking about anything other than the free market? I'm not arguing for state intervention in the market and I don't see anyone else doing it either. GW adopting policies that push discount sellers out of the market is simply GW making decisions in a free market.
But you really have not thought through the consequences of your dogmas and why if they were implementable would be catastrophic.
I'm not sure why you think 40k products only being available at 90-100% of MSRP is "catastrophic"? What exactly are the consequences you are so concerned about?
I should ask though, where did you get your ideas?
From recognition of the simple fact that real store add more value to the community than online discount stores, and the existence of online discount stores forces those vital stores to depend on charity donations to survive. Social pressure to ignore the cheaper product and "pay where you play" is far less desirable than the online discount sellers no longer existing, and a lack of charity donations that results in stores moving 40k from "I guess we'll host it when the CCG players aren't here" to "not worth it anymore" would be a disaster for the long-term health of the game.
Tyton wrote: Sounds like a lot of you weren't around back in the wild west times when online stores sold stuff for 40-45% off. There was absolutely a reason GW instituted a MAPP on their products. There would not have been many stores that continued to stock their products and actually sell them, if that hadn't happened.
GW at that time was mismanaged and didn't understand the internet. retailers buy stock from a manufacturers at about half RRP, then needed to shift it. Catchment limitations prevented a store from having any advantage by selling at only a fraction over the retailer purchase price. Then along came the internet.
GW being a poorly run large company were slow to react to reality. A MAPP was inevitable, but there is a limit to how high a MAPP you can set and that limit is enforced by trading regulators. Third party sellers have an entitlement to undercut, the only legal way around that is to reserve certain stock items for direct sale only. GW does this.
Discounts are good for the consumer. Too large of a discount is bad for physical stores. I'm not sure why that is such a strange concept to grasp?
The concept is easy to grasp, and the answer is that if a product line is uncompetitive change your stockage, diversify and/or match prices. A free market does not guarantee the profitability of a stock item, and the marketeer has the right to choose the stock that offers the best return.
What you are failing to grasp are the consequences of stopping the free market working as intended.
Orlanth wrote: A MAPP was inevitable, but there is a limit to how high a MAPP you can set and that limit is enforced by trading regulators. Third party sellers have an entitlement to undercut, the only legal way around that is to reserve certain stock items for direct sale only.
There is also the use of conditions that discount sellers can't comply with without raising their prices to compensate, conditions that GW already imposes. Expanding their existing requirements on things like minimum stock to include minimum gaming space levels, maximum distance from other retail businesses, etc, would put the costs of operating a discount store on par with the costs to operate a real store and prevent undercutting.
(And I'll note here that a limit on MAPPs is a clear case of state intervention against a free market.)
The concept is easy to grasp, and the answer is that if a product line is uncompetitive change your stockage, diversify and/or match prices.
While yes, that is the rational action for a store, do you not see why this would be a catastrophe for the long-term health of the game and GW as a company? And why GW has a clear incentive to limit online discount sellers, if not drive them out of business entirely? And why we, as players, should want them to do so?
What you are failing to grasp are the consequences of stopping the free market working as intended.
GW deciding that online-only discount sellers are bad for their business and refusing to provide them with inventory would be a textbook case of actions within a free market, and it is only because of state intervention in the free market on behalf of the discount sellers that such an act could be prohibited.
Strange discussion. The big online discounters in Germany all have a store as well (Fantasywelt, Kutami, Battlefield Berlin etc.). So, are they "parasites" and work against themselves? Or are they merely clever FLGS? There's no FLGS within reach of me so without these stores that also sell online there wouldn't be a Community in my region.
Gue'vesa Emissary wrote: Oh really? Online-only sellers are giving a place to play and other people to play with?
Yes. Online sellers have to have a brick and mortar storefront to be able to buy from GW. As a general fact, the online sellers tend to have the biggest play areas.
GW, in contrast, don't have play areas anymore in Spain, only demo mini tables, and are one man operations. By your definitions, they are the ones leeching off from the hobby.
Same in Japan. There is no actual space in my nearest GW. Just half a table that can accomodate 1000pts at best. If we want to play we either meet at a friend's place, or rent a room at the local citizens center. Plus outside of the large boxes you have to order everything online through GW's page either way at a 20 to 30% mark up because Japan... so in conclusion GW is parasiting the Japanese hobby!
M.
Edit: to be fair next month there will be a Warhammer cafe oppening in Tokyo, will it be a mix between the Bugsman's Tavern, and battlebunker of old, or just another themed cafe is still on the air.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: Strange discussion. The big online discounters in Germany all have a store as well (Fantasywelt, Kutami, Battlefield Berlin etc.). So, are they "parasites" and work against themselves? Or are they merely clever FLGS? There's no FLGS within reach of me so without these stores that also sell online there wouldn't be a Community in my region.
I will admit that online stores attached to a legitimate FLGS where the in-person sales are a significant percentage of their business and they provide all of the community support of a FLGS are a different case. I can only speak for the US, where people are buying from an ebay seller or a warehouse on the other side of the country because the FLGS they play at only has a 15% discount instead of 20% and even the online sellers who technically have an offline presence make virtually all of their sales through the online store.
If you can afford something at 80% of MSRP you can afford it at 100% of MSRP by saving up for a bit longer.
You. Not everybody.
Or hey. If you can afford at 100% you can afford at 120%.
If you can afford 120% you can afford at 144%. Same jump.
If you can afford at 144% you can afford at 172.8%.
Etc etc
So basically according to YOUR logic there's no limit on what people can afford. Aka you have unlimited funding and think everybody in the world has same.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Why does a store have to provide community support?
Because if stores don't provide community support the game dies.
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tneva82 wrote: So basically according to YOUR logic there's no limit on what people can afford.
Based on nonsense math. You and I both know there's a difference between "if you can afford a $50 kit you an afford it at $60 if you save up for four weeks instead of three" and "if you can afford a $50 kit you can afford a $50 million private jet because LOL MATH ITS JUST 10% ADDED 10 MILION MORE TIMES".
Gue'vesa Emissary wrote: And the 40k community would be better off with the discount sellers heavily restricted or driven out of the market.
oh sweet summer child
the 40k community would be dead over night without discount sellers
that part of the wargaming community simply exist because the majority don't pay MSRP on anything
remove discount sellers, 3D copies and pirated rules and the game dies overnight, there are not enough people paying the GW price to play a mediocre game with expensive display models to make "the community" and people will wonder off either to another game to use their existing collection or selling off their stuff and move to different wargames/hobbies
we have seen this with the LotR community when GW thought people are willing to pay the "regular" GW price
the community might be built around stores that provide gaming space, but without discounts you won't have enough people playing 40k in the first place and the wargaming community around the store won't be focused on 40k or AoS but on different games
Tyton wrote: Sounds like a lot of you weren't around back in the wild west times when online stores sold stuff for 40-45% off. There was absolutely a reason GW instituted a MAPP on their products. There would not have been many stores that continued to stock their products and actually sell them, if that hadn't happened.
That said, the MAPP they put in place, at least here in the US, leveled the playing field between online vs. in store. Both of them serve a roll in the community, for various reasons.
Discounts are good for the consumer. Too large of a discount is bad for physical stores. I'm not sure why that is such a strange concept to grasp?
That's not something that's happened in Europe. I don't remember ever seeing a discount over 25% for GW stuff in european online stores, and even that only for fire sales.
it did happen but long ago and this was the time where the Euro was equal to the Pound
for the short time it was cheaper to order directly from GW-UK than going with 20% off the Euro price and even so far that some bought stuff at discount in the UK and sold it off with a 30-40% discount on the Euro price and still made profit (while regular stores could not go that low)
did not last long as GW itself just charged higher shipping rates that would eat up any savings and with the exchange rate going back to normal the other online stores closed when they run out of stock
It's not different, but that's not the point. A real store adds accessibility vs. buying direct from GW's online store because it lets you buy stuff for immediate pickup and gives you a place to play the game. An online discount store has no accessibility advantage over buying direct from GW. One is adding value, the other is just a parasite on the hobby.
While this may be true, for the purposes of my hobby I don't require a place to play the game (I already have one of those, it's called a house) nor do I require access to a community to play with, I have those too (friends). So for me, the real stores are the parasite on *my* hobby, they're not adding any value for me. So I'd rather get stuff at a 20% discount, than pay 20% more for services I don't need.
Sgt. Cortez wrote: Strange discussion. The big online discounters in Germany all have a store as well (Fantasywelt, Kutami, Battlefield Berlin etc.). So, are they "parasites" and work against themselves? Or are they merely clever FLGS? There's no FLGS within reach of me so without these stores that also sell online there wouldn't be a Community in my region.
I will admit that online stores attached to a legitimate FLGS where the in-person sales are a significant percentage of their business and they provide all of the community support of a FLGS are a different case. I can only speak for the US, where people are buying from an ebay seller or a warehouse on the other side of the country because the FLGS they play at only has a 15% discount instead of 20% and even the online sellers who technically have an offline presence make virtually all of their sales through the online store.
oh boy, please come over here where i live, the market is so small it's basically dominated by 1-2 stores, good ones at that but yeah either A or B.
GW direct order is not an option because despite having long term free trade agreements, gw thinks of switzerland as "rest of the world" category, hence why the average price is completely nuts beyond tarrifs. The MAPP increase will facilitate consumption tourism even more than it already is a thing, basically it's far cheaper for me to drive into germany or even italy, buy there and drive back, meanwhile the local stores will struggle more, even more than they already do due to the massive difference in salary compared to the rest of europe. (indeed this is one of the reasons why switzerland chronically disagrees with the EU about cross border work, simply because EU companies could undercut swiss ones to a massive degree.) So in other words this will target the ones which are already providing a community service quite a bit.
It also has in the past withhold delivery and made certain units Mail order only, making the FLG's suffer through dismanteling availability and ease of consumption. That was also at a time where they considered to open a store in switzerland and realising that prices are nuts decided to drop that leaving the local community basically to fend for itself. IoW, the FLG's got worse off by GW since availability dropped of certain units f.e. WHFB bestigors, direct GW orders are clearly overpriced due to a combination of magic currency exchange and tarrifs aswell as nonsensical categories. New MAPP will further increase the prices, facilitate consumption tourism and by extent further cripple the margins that the local stores had and they were already in a worse position than their competition.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Why does a store have to provide community support?
Because if stores don't provide community support the game dies.
That has to be the most uneducated statement I have ever heard. If your local community can't arrange games in people's homes or local community centres that pure laziness on the part of the community not the fault of online sales.
Going back to the original topic, is this just a weird artifact of GW not ever offering an actual monetary discount on anything they sell direct?
As in, what a normal company would do is just put the prices up on these things by 5% of whatever, both RRP and the sale price to retailers, but then just sell that stuff at a 5% discount on their own store?
Doesn't that effectively achieve the same aim, and no-one would bat an eyelid except for the fact that GW never do % discount sales?
Overread wrote: The discount store allows you to buy the same product at a reduced price compared to the online GW store. Both stores online require the same number of clicks (broadly speaking) and the same personal information and details from you. So if the discount store offers a better price, then the attraction is that you can buy things at that reduced price. So that means you might get more things for the same amount of money; or get the same number of things you were going to get anyway for less cost leaving you more money in your pocket for other things.
That's a reason to buy from the discount store but it's not accessibility.
An accessibility advantage would be if, say, GW did not ship to a particular country but the discount store did. Then the discount store would be offering something that doesn't already exist and adding value to the hobby. But as it is this is not the case in any major market and the comment about discount stores being parasites stands.
My advantage for buying from a German discounter is that I don't have to butt heads with the sociopaths at customs and with GW's minimum wage trolls to get back the VAT that I have to pay despite GW claiming they ship VAT pre-paid.
The good old days where your local games shop was the contact point for other gamers, either by functioning as a gaming club or an old fashioned notice board providing contact numbers are long gone. Gamers have other ways of finding each other.
So the sentiment, while well intentioned, just doesn't stand up to modern times. Bricks n' mortar stores have to do what all shops have to - offer a service a customer is willing to pay for, and play to their strengths: friendly, personal service, a place to play if they need it and stock that people want (even if you can't match a 20%er, there is some value in having the item right there).
I'm a BNM shop owner myself. The local gaming community was here before me and it'll be here after I've closed down, so I can't claim any credit for that. Wayland, Element etc, were up and running before me, so I can't say they're stealing my business. In almost any trade, there is going to be a deep discounter somewhere, it's just a fact of modern retail.
deano2099 wrote: Going back to the original topic, is this just a weird artifact of GW not ever offering an actual monetary discount on anything they sell direct?
As in, what a normal company would do is just put the prices up on these things by 5% of whatever, both RRP and the sale price to retailers, but then just sell that stuff at a 5% discount on their own store?
Doesn't that effectively achieve the same aim, and no-one would bat an eyelid except for the fact that GW never do % discount sales?
I think there are some laws as to how long something can be at certain prices for before it can be advertised as "reduced" and likewise it ceased to be a "reduced" price if it's maintained at that cost for too long, which of course would then need to be passed on to their retailers.
deano2099 wrote: Going back to the original topic, is this just a weird artifact of GW not ever offering an actual monetary discount on anything they sell direct?
As in, what a normal company would do is just put the prices up on these things by 5% of whatever, both RRP and the sale price to retailers, but then just sell that stuff at a 5% discount on their own store?
Doesn't that effectively achieve the same aim, and no-one would bat an eyelid except for the fact that GW never do % discount sales?
I think there are some laws as to how long something can be at certain prices for before it can be advertised as "reduced" and likewise it ceased to be a "reduced" price if it's maintained at that cost for too long, which of course would then need to be passed on to their retailers.
That's true, but just because GW set the RRP, doesn't mean they have to sell at it. They'd just list it as a discount on RRP just like any other online store does.
Orlanth wrote: If one goes into business and a competitor undercuts one, THEY ARE DOING NOTHING WRONG.
Legally? Correct. But from the point of view of what is best for me, and for the community as a whole? They absolutely are doing something wrong. From their point of view they are maximizing profits, from my point of view they are parasites whose failure will not be mourned. They are certainly not as bad as some other businesses but their existence is still a bad thing unless you're one of their shareholders.
If discounted prices are the way to maximise profits then perhaps GW should be taking the same approach?
That would both remove the niche for online discount stores, whilst also helping the community (because GW making money apparently helps the community, somehow).
Sure. It's legal. But GW is not obligated to provide them with inventory on favorable terms, and we are not obligated to call them anything other than parasites.
Actually, Sunshine, when you're posting on Dakka and referring to another member of the site, you are - rule 1 applies, after all.
deano2099 wrote: Going back to the original topic, is this just a weird artifact of GW not ever offering an actual monetary discount on anything they sell direct?
As in, what a normal company would do is just put the prices up on these things by 5% of whatever, both RRP and the sale price to retailers, but then just sell that stuff at a 5% discount on their own store?
Doesn't that effectively achieve the same aim, and no-one would bat an eyelid except for the fact that GW never do % discount sales?
I think there are some laws as to how long something can be at certain prices for before it can be advertised as "reduced" and likewise it ceased to be a "reduced" price if it's maintained at that cost for too long, which of course would then need to be passed on to their retailers.
That's true, but just because GW set the RRP, doesn't mean they have to sell at it. They'd just list it as a discount on RRP just like any other online store does.
Their price is the RRP, If they produce it and constantly and levelly undercut their own RRP they'd get a hefty slap for manipulating the market and misinforming customers. They cna sell their products at RRP and then have them reduced or on sale for limited periods of time, which they don't do, but they can't just blanket undercut themselves.
This decision by GW aligns with how I have seen them treat their employees. They did not treat them well. At a fundamental level I do not think they valued them.
The decision indicates that they value independent stockists less. Those stockists are performing the same work and services as before, but now according to gw they deserve less. Unlike gw, these stores are not raking in cash. Cutting pay to low wage earners and small business reprehensible.
GW could set terms to limit discounts. They could set pricing to retailers based on reverse volume, to give low volume retailers a better price than high volume ones. But no, they just screw over third party stockists.
GW could also decide to lower prices, considering we are infront of an economic downturn and keep their distribution and visibility system afloat and later profit from having maintained or even expanded their custommer base whith the next up turn.
Alas GW is gw and prices only go up in gw verse.
meanwhile Wargames atlantic had a nice article about "increased " cost for plastic and stated that they'd absorb the increase of 10 cents / box themselves... Whilest GW even hiked at the time the old khorne berzerker kit.
guess which company sold me 120 bulldogs and probably will do so again until i may be reach brigade strength with that army?
They actually can’t set terms to limit discounts in the UK, as a matter of law. And setting reverse volume pricing is a good way to suddenly triple the number of third parties you have to deal with yet keep the exact same number of delivery addresses.
Games can 100% exist without local store support. It's much harder and often relies on either friend groups that might never expand much beyond the initial setup, but which stay true to playing for a long time; or a very keen few people at the top who organise, invest in and make sure the club advertises and keeps getting new blood in.
Local stores do make it a lot easier typically as the store acts as a marketing and focal point. New people walk in and buy stuff and can be told about the local club(s); the street advertising lures in new people and the direct model support can sometimes be beneficial with things like "club members get 5% discount" etc...
So no store can certainly work; but having a store is superior to not having one.
i think a community can exist without a store, but a community with a good FLGS is a richer community , not just for availabilty but also for access to the community at large.
However i do think that only applies to propper FLGS and not to just any LGS.
Not Online!!! wrote: GW could also decide to lower prices, considering we are infront of an economic downturn and keep their distribution and visibility system afloat and later profit from having maintained or even expanded their custommer base whith the next up turn.
GW is hardly alone in being a company unwilling to lower prices during an economic downturn.
Rolsheen wrote: That has to be the most uneducated statement I have ever heard. If your local community can't arrange games in people's homes or local community centres that pure laziness on the part of the community not the fault of online sales.
Home games are great for an existing group. They're terrible for getting new players into the game because you won't even know the home game exists until you're already part of the community.
This is the issue people keep failing to understand. The catastrophe that happens if real stores are driven out of business by discount sellers is not that the game will instantly die tomorrow, it's that the long-term health of the game will be destroyed. Existing customers will benefit from cheaper toys for a short time, at least as long as they can arrange home games to make up for the loss of store space, but without stores to bring in new customers the community will inevitably shrink and collapse. And if GW enters the death spiral of trying to compensate for collapsing sales volume with higher prices per sale the end can come a lot faster than you might think.
The fact we have decades of evidence proving otherwise(Battletech, D&D pre-Hasbro, Oldhammer groups, etc.) makes the entire thesis suspect.
Thanks for proving my point very nicely. Battletech is a niche game that has gone in and out of production under various owners, while old D&D and GW games are just plain dead even if a tiny handful of people still keep playing with their decades-old rulebooks and models. You can't buy them anymore, no new content is being made, and it's very difficult to find anyone to play with. Is that outcome really worth a temporary 20% discount on your 40k toys?
Gue'vesa Emissary wrote: Home games are great for an existing group. They're terrible for getting new players into the game because you won't even know the home game exists until you're already part of the community.
This is the issue people keep failing to understand.
We're not. I think for many people is mostly a cultural difference. Local stores have NEVER been the focal social points for hobby communities that seem to be in the USA. So here, for many people, what you are trying to assert does not apply. People play at home, or at clubs, and could give a rat's ass that some store has a table.And even so, "the community" thrives.
Thanks for proving my point very nicely. Battletech is a niche game that has gone in and out of production under various owners, while old D&D and GW games are just plain dead even if a tiny handful of people still keep playing with their decades-old rulebooks and models. You can't buy them anymore, no new content is being made, and it's very difficult to find anyone to play with. Is that outcome really worth a temporary 20% discount on your 40k toys?
You... you are aware that the whole of the OSR and Oldhammer movements exist, are you not?
Albertorius wrote: We're not. I think for many people is mostly a cultural difference. Local stores have NEVER been the focal social points for hobby communities that seem to be in the USA. So here, for many people, what you are trying to assert does not apply. People play at home, or at clubs, and could give a rat's ass that some store has a table.And even so, "the community" thrives.
How do you get people into the game? In the US even people that play private games at home still probably discovered the game at a store or with friends who got into it through a store. Take away that element of "went in to buy MTG, came out with a 40k starter set" and you'd crash the player count.
You... you are aware that the whole of the OSR and Oldhammer movements exist, are you not?
"Dead game" doesn't mean literally not a single person ever plays it. Those "movements" exist but are a negligible player count with no products in stores and no public presence. If GW goes out of business and 40k production ends (at least until a series of increasingly poor quality kickstarter attempts from whoever buys the IP) the game will be dead even if a tiny handful of people keep playing with their existing models and books.
Not Online!!! wrote: GW could also decide to lower prices, considering we are infront of an economic downturn and keep their distribution and visibility system afloat and later profit from having maintained or even expanded their custommer base whith the next up turn.
GW is hardly alone in being a company unwilling to lower prices during an economic downturn.
I would never get into 40k if I had to buy everything from GW direct only, given it inconveniences me thrice compared to just buying what I need online;
1. Obviously, it's way more expensive, around 20-30% more expensive buying directly from GW, not counting the price of shipping something from UK to Eastern Europe, which adds up pretty fast if you're going to buy several things in your lifetime - 30% off 200 pounds, aka the price of, idk, five-six smaller kits is 60 bloody pounds. That's not an insignificant amount of money!
2. It takes way more time, something shipping from GW direct will take on average, two-three weeks, maybe a month, even, instead of two-three days it would take for it to simply be shipped from an online retailer within my county.
3. It's also way less reliable shipping, given Games Workshop uses a bog-standard courier like UPS - who, as probably everyone who has dealt with them in the past knows, have a very fun and nice habbit of wasting your time by - instead of delivering your package - running up to the door and smacking a "Sorry we missed you!" notice, then running back to their truck (which is because UPS gives them an extremely strict time scheudle and it's just faster than delivering normally), which tends to add several days before I can actually get my hands on the product. Meanwhile, an online retailer can simply send my order to a Parcel locker, where it'll arrive within maybe one or two days, and where I can pick it up on my own pace, whenever I want.
Also, I have no idea how one, in good faith, can make the argument that the price of something doesn't actually have any bearing on it's affordability. It's just such a, blatant oxymoron of a sentence, I have no idea how one could expect a proper retort to it.
Gue'vesa Emissary wrote: How do you get people into the game? In the US even people that play private games at home still probably discovered the game at a store or with friends who got into it through a store. Take away that element of "went in to buy MTG, came out with a 40k starter set" and you'd crash the player count.
We have clubs, usually in spaces lent by town halls and the like. Also, a lot of tournaments with open doors (Spain has the biggest Kill Team events in the world, for example... and that's not a fluke. It has historically been the same for many games).
"Dead game" doesn't mean literally not a single person ever plays it. Those "movements" exist but are a negligible player count with no products in stores and no public presence. If GW goes out of business and 40k production ends (at least until a series of increasingly poor quality kickstarter attempts from whoever buys the IP) the game will be dead even if a tiny handful of people keep playing with their existing models and books.
It's true that for Oldhammer there's not many in stores (although there's an incredibly strong presence online for Wasmaster, Epic or Ninth Age), but absolutely NOT for the OSR. Let's see, off the top of my head, you have OSRIC, Labyrinth Lord, Dungeon Crawl Classics, Old School Essentials, Mork Bork, Lamentations of the Flame Princess, Stars Without Number, Godbound... the amount of OSR products in stores is absolutely staggering, and not only in english, Her in Spain we have about a dozen of local OSR games in stores, like Tesoro y Gloria or Aventuras en la Marca del Este.
"Dead game" doesn't mean literally not a single person ever plays it. Those "movements" exist but are a negligible player count with no products in stores and no public presence. If GW goes out of business and 40k production ends (at least until a series of increasingly poor quality kickstarter attempts from whoever buys the IP) the game will be dead even if a tiny handful of people keep playing with their existing models and books.
Wow. So a company that could afford to purchase the 40k IP would resort to poor quality kickstarters. That's a pretty big jump you made there.
For a lot of people, the B&M (inc GW) stores are where they first came across GW stuff. I agree with you. However, at this point removing them would only remove new customers. That seems like a long term idea. These days it seems some companies only look short term at the next investor statements/profits.
Anyway, this new GW move on squeezing the non-GW stores and online stores won't have an effect on GW at all other than making an extra 5.8% profit per sale. It's the poor B&M stores that will vanish, but in small enough numbers not to matter to GW.
Albertorius wrote: We're not. I think for many people is mostly a cultural difference. Local stores have NEVER been the focal social points for hobby communities that seem to be in the USA. So here, for many people, what you are trying to assert does not apply. People play at home, or at clubs, and could give a rat's ass that some store has a table.And even so, "the community" thrives.
How do you get people into the game? In the US even people that play private games at home still probably discovered the game at a store or with friends who got into it through a store. Take away that element of "went in to buy MTG, came out with a 40k starter set" and you'd crash the player count.
I'm in the US and haven't discovered a game via a store or someone that saw it at a store in probably 20 years. It's been exclusively internet for a long time now. My group discovers more stuff via Dakka, facebook and Beasts of War then I ever would from a game store.
Monkeysloth wrote: I'm in the US and haven't discovered a game via a store or someone that saw it at a store in probably 20 years. It's been exclusively internet for a long time now. My group discovers more stuff via Dakka, facebook and Beasts of War then I ever would from a game store.
Highlighted the important part for you. An existing group can work just fine without a store, it's new customers that have a problem. That's why I keep saying it's a long-term problem. Losing real stores in favor of online discount sellers won't kill the game immediately but the drop in new customers will be catastrophic in the long run.
Monkeysloth wrote: I'm in the US and haven't discovered a game via a store or someone that saw it at a store in probably 20 years. It's been exclusively internet for a long time now. My group discovers more stuff via Dakka, facebook and Beasts of War then I ever would from a game store.
Highlighted the important part for you. An existing group can work just fine without a store, it's new customers that have a problem. That's why I keep saying it's a long-term problem. Losing real stores in favor of online discount sellers won't kill the game immediately but the drop in new customers will be catastrophic in the long run.
You're under the impression that the only way people ever buy things is by being in a store. That's really not how the world works anymore let alone our hobby. Information on these games is so easily accessible that its actually a huge hassle to go to a physical store that probably only carries 5% of what's out there and takes a month to get any stock in if you want something they don't have -- if you're lucky that they're even willing to do so. Several stores around me won't do special orders. You buy what they have, some at above MSRP, or you don't buy anything at all.
My group also formed 100% outside of a game store and has had the same group of people for over 10 years and a few of us for almost 20. Outside of 2 of us everyone when they joined had never played anything but boardgame before. It's very doable to build a group outside of a game store.
Yeah right now the glory days of a local store that was stocked high to the rafters with stock from a whole host of lines with a shopkeeper who had worked there since they were knee high to a grasshopper and knew the market inside and out - those days are long gone.
Today the highstreet is super hard to trade on with the overhead costs and all. Heck a lot of model making firms have to deal with this problem of stores only wanting a small SKU range but customers wanting ever more models and diversity for their collections and forces.
It's hard to stock loads of lines and tie up money in stock and not have it trading quickly, which leans stores toward product lines that do sell well and fast. Plus it also pushes a lot of retailers to sell online to try and increase their catchment to overcome the costs of doing business in itself.
I'd love to have a return of the old highstreets bristling with loads of little diverse shops and all and maybe one day we will get back to that; but right now its hard to do that. Not impossible, but just a lot lot harder and that leads into it supporting things that sell well and not the niche specialist stuff
There's been more Warhammer interest than ever thanks to Total War, Dark Tide, Dawn of War, the novels being in major bookstores, Henry Cavill, etc. More people know of Warhammer and are interested in Warhammer than have ever set foot in a store that carries Warhammer.
I have an aburd amount of game stores in my area (has to be one of the highest concentrations based off of population in the US) with about 10 within a 30min drive that carry more then just CCGs (add another 5 that are CCGs only) and most of them are packed but only with Magic and D&D players. I think only two even have tablespace for wargames anymore.
They almost all switched to RPGs around the start of the pandemic and as restrictions lightened people that didn't have a place to play went to the stores (most, from what I understand are all groups formed outside of the game store -- but I've only talked to the employees at the closest stores) and it's been very profitable to sell time and food to the RPG players out here. Basically becoming clubs that sell RPG and magic more then a traditional store.
Want an RPG that's not D&D? Well tough luck, they don't sell it as there's no demand. So there's no discovery even possible.
My niece is (really my 3rd cousin? My cousin's daughter) 13. I hadnt seen them in a long while and found out at Thanksgiving dinner that she plays D&D (5th edition) through her school. She has maybe been to a game store twice, and her parents didn't let her buy anything. But she plays every week and has for the last year. I dont think that is an uncommon thing either. We are actually starting a Pathfinder 1st game (as I dont like d&d 5th) in the new year with her mom and some of my game group. She was over the moon when i gave her some minis, some dice and the pathfinder basic rule box...
Internet, clubs and what you call "parasites" do more leg work for the Hobby* than the traditional store.
Besides the world is not only the Stores in your area/state/country, it's a LOT bigger than that.
With 2 years Covid the hobby thrived and was not because people could go play in a store was it?.... some countries have little or no hobby stores, yet they manage.
Today more than ever the hobby is growing, loads of new games have visibility and reaching more people and it's not because of the stores that DO NOT stock them.
So yes the Hobby* is expanding its horizons and so should you.
*40k is only part of the hobby.
GW will be GW and try to squeeze as much as they possibly can from everyone involved with them, thats not news thats what they do.
The reality of the situation is that GW doesn't give a crap where you buy from. They get their money no matter the source of your purchase. GW always gets at least 100% of what they want if you get it from them or from the FLGS.
Coupled with their current FOMO/Splash Limited releases, they are getting paid.
IMHO the primary reason, and from research into opening a store, to go into the FLGS is for gaming space and clubs. The FLGS does not survive on minis, it lives on card sales/resales, and secondary purchases like vending. Which is also why you are seeing the rise of FLGS that serve pub style food and alcohol.
People that use the spaces and play in clubs tend to return the favor by making in store purchases or orders. Most B&M stores offer some sort of small discount or points system to get a discount. However, it is far more common, in the U.S., that people play in friends/coworkers/acquaintances homes or places that allow gatherings.
GW is also not the only manufacturer to require B&M as I know Battlefront does also and they aren't exactly a powerhouse in the industry.
Just have to say this thread is giving me a headache with the amount of incorrect information and generally uneducated guesses/statements.....
I'd argue the game stores are more of the parasites -- at least when it comes to taking advantage of some of their customers. Outside of Magic and some GW stuff I cannot think of a game store that actually organized any events themselves -- everything was done, for free, by their customers to build the communities and organize play. (granted I'm sure not all stores are like this but I'm sure a lot are).
One of my buddies use to run D&D organized play out here at one of the larger local chains and the store actually treated him like an employee -- calling him up and telling him to come in to run games for people that wanted to play and other nonsense. He wasn't the only one but just stopped running and organizing things after that (as they refused to stop) and the whole D&D scene there died up as soon as he did.
The scene only existed at the time because one person did it for free and the store profited. The store didn't care and put in zero effort themselves so what's the point of the store?
Monkeysloth wrote: I'd argue the game stores are more of the parasites -- at least when it comes to taking advantage of some of their customers. Outside of Magic and some GW stuff I cannot think of a game store that actually organized any events themselves -- everything was done, for free, by their customers to build the communities and organize play. (granted I'm sure not all stores are like this but I'm sure a lot are).
One of my buddies use to run D&D organized play out here at one of the larger local chains and the store actually treated him like an employee -- calling him up and telling him to come in to run games for people that wanted to play and other nonsense. He wasn't the only one but just stopped running and organizing things after that (as they refused to stop) and the whole D&D scene there died up as soon as he did.
The scene only existed at the time because one person did it for free and the store profited. The store didn't care and put in zero effort themselves so what's the point of the store?
I've seen this happen, too. Sure, the shop may provide a table and chairs, and let you buy snacks oftentimes, and of course the books are there. But most of the time they rely heavily on non-employee volunteer work to run events outside of sponsored Magic things on booster releases, etc. Thing is, like others have pointed out, RPG books and even minis are not the breadwinners of the majority of game stores; that's more often than not Magic.
And like others, I've jumped into more games from seeing them played or reading about them on the internet than ever picked up from an LGS. Sure, if one of the stores nearby carries it, I'll often buy from there, but at the same time, since I rarely play at them (for a variety of reasons, even pre-Covid), if the LGS will only do a special order for something I want and it's gonna take as long or longer than grabbing it online, welp, I'm going online. I honestly can't think of a single game I got into due to a "first exposure" at an LGS in a decade or more.
Edited to add:
Ok, maybe a slight change. I was heavily debating about getting into Shadows of Brimstone for a while, but had so far avoided buying anything. That is, until my usual FLGS decided, without any pressure/input from me, to suddenly start carrying it. I've gotten almost all of my Brimstone stuff from him, though there's been the occasional purchase from Amazon to use up gift cards from work, and did get some stuff at Dice Fest. That said, while I do go to that store semi-routinely, I haven't played there. That's like the only real "exception" in a very long time.
Provide a central location for play, finding products, linking with other players (about quarter of our players refuse to use social media, for example).
I just checked a couple of game stores semi-local to me. Granted these are smaller stores and their online elements are not heavily developed. However each one had multiple MTG and other card game events planned and multiple nights where they were playing one card game or another.
Wargames had one store mentioning them having an evening which read like "its wargame evening, make sure to bring your opponent with you" kind of deal and there were a couple of tournaments.
So yeah a LOT of card game and limited wargame. thing is card games outsell wargames; they are also super cheap to stock (in comparison); have fast turnover; have regular cycling turnover of stock (MTG cycles at least 2-3 blocks or so a year and that excludes all the commander stuff and specialist releases); are super easy to pitch extra sales too (you can easily coax a customer into another pack of cards; harder to coax a wargamer into anything that isn't a paint pot or brush for an impulsive buy).
Monkeysloth wrote: You're under the impression that the only way people ever buy things is by being in a store.
I said no such thing. Stores are the primary place to get into the hobby. It doesn't matter that you can buy the products from some online discount seller if you never get into the hobby because there's no easy place to go see a game being played, meet other players, etc. And you have a total loss of the customers who come into a store for MTG/board games/etc, see a cool miniatures being played, and decide it looks interesting enough to buy that first starter set.
Now, can you get some sales without a physical store? Of course. But the death spiral of declining sales volume -> higher prices and cutting support -> more decline -> more price increases and support cuts is very real and the best-case scenario is a greatly reduced GW selling to a niche audience with little hope of continuing to play if your local group falls apart.
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Overread wrote: Wargames had one store mentioning them having an evening which read like "its wargame evening, make sure to bring your opponent with you" kind of deal and there were a couple of tournaments.
So yeah a LOT of card game and limited wargame. thing is card games outsell wargames; they are also super cheap to stock (in comparison); have fast turnover; have regular cycling turnover of stock (MTG cycles at least 2-3 blocks or so a year and that excludes all the commander stuff and specialist releases); are super easy to pitch extra sales too (you can easily coax a customer into another pack of cards; harder to coax a wargamer into anything that isn't a paint pot or brush for an impulsive buy).
This is exactly the problem. Miniatures are already in a precarious position as third-tier products behind CCGs and board games/comics/etc, it wouldn't take much for a lot of stores to decide that getting rid of GW entirely would let them free up the shelf space and all the storage spent on tables and terrain. The more online-only discount sellers push prices to a point where real stores can't compete the more likely it is that the real stores decide to dump the entire thing and 40k loses a vital recruitment tool.
Monkeysloth wrote: You're under the impression that the only way people ever buy things is by being in a store.
I said no such thing. Stores are the primary place to get into the hobby. It doesn't matter that you can buy the products from some online discount seller if you never get into the hobby because there's no easy place to go see a game being played, meet other players, etc. And you have a total loss of the customers who come into a store for MTG/board games/etc, see a cool miniatures being played, and decide it looks interesting enough to buy that first starter set.
Surely online spaces do all of that these days, and much faster. Pick any given game that has piqued your interest, spend a couple of minutes searching the web and you'll likely find at least one dedicated facebook group / forum / discord server you can join and interact with immediately. If they are well organized, you might even be able to schedule an introductory game on TTS that same day. You'll find a hobby section where several people have posted their armies, terrain and conversions, all available for your viewing pleasure on demand. More often than not, there will be purchasing guides explaining the product in detail and what to buy in which order to get started. You'll probably also find battle reports, reviews and intro videos linked to be accessed right away. The whole shebang is available at your fingertips nowadays.
Monkeysloth wrote: You're under the impression that the only way people ever buy things is by being in a store.
I said no such thing. Stores are the primary place to get into the hobby.
You keep saying that, and it's simply not true, at the very least over anywhere I've ever been in.
It's not even tru of GW anymore either. Back in the day, GW stores were on heavy traffic areas or inside stores complexes, but not anymore, as with the raising rents they have moved to one man operations in side streets where only people that already know of them visit.
Gue'vesa Emissary wrote: I said no such thing. Stores are the primary place to get into the hobby.
I'm just curious as to what numbers you have to back up that assertion. There are lots of ways to get into the hobby. Pre-internet, it was through friend groups or gaming clubs. Conventions were another pathway. Back in the day, gaming magazines ran "opponents wanted" advertisements and people played strategy games by snail mail.
Now we have social media as another vector.
It is also true that this experience varies by country. The UK gaming situation is vastly different than it is here in the States, where having your own private gaming area is quite common.
There are gaming clubs in the schools as well. My first exposure to 40k (Rogue Trader era) was at my high school gaming club. No store in this area at that time had gaming space. Stores were places you went to buy stuff. Game play took place elsewhere. I think that's still true in the US, but if you've got survey data, I'd love to see it.
privateer4hire wrote: Provide a central location for play, finding products, linking with other players (about quarter of our players refuse to use social media, for example).
A club would do that better as they have more room for play and there's no awkward social expectation to buy anything as you're already paying for table access.
Overread wrote: I just checked a couple of game stores semi-local to me. Granted these are smaller stores and their online elements are not heavily developed. However each one had multiple MTG and other card game events planned and multiple nights where they were playing one card game or another.
Wargames had one store mentioning them having an evening which read like "its wargame evening, make sure to bring your opponent with you" kind of deal and there were a couple of tournaments.
So yeah a LOT of card game and limited wargame. thing is card games outsell wargames; they are also super cheap to stock (in comparison); have fast turnover; have regular cycling turnover of stock (MTG cycles at least 2-3 blocks or so a year and that excludes all the commander stuff and specialist releases); are super easy to pitch extra sales too (you can easily coax a customer into another pack of cards; harder to coax a wargamer into anything that isn't a paint pot or brush for an impulsive buy).
Yup. I used to be close with a couple of guys who owned a game store. MTG and Pokemon played the bills and the salaries. Board Games and Wargaming was there mostly because they enjoyed it. I've heard similar stories from other people I didn't know as well and the internet.
There is a store where I am at now that does comic books, RPGs, and Wargaming, but has very little stock as far as card games go, and no food either. I am really curious how they keep the lights on, but don't know them well enough to be able to ask.
Monkeysloth wrote: You're under the impression that the only way people ever buy things is by being in a store.
I said no such thing. Stores are the primary place to get into the hobby. It doesn't matter that you can buy the products from some online discount seller if you never get into the hobby because there's no easy place to go see a game being played, meet other players, etc. And you have a total loss of the customers who come into a store for MTG/board games/etc, see a cool miniatures being played, and decide it looks interesting enough to buy that first starter set.
Surely online spaces do all of that these days, and much faster. Pick any given game that has piqued your interest, spend a couple of minutes searching the web and you'll likely find at least one dedicated facebook group / forum / discord server you can join and interact with immediately. If they are well organized, you might even be able to schedule an introductory game on TTS that same day. You'll find a hobby section where several people have posted their armies, terrain and conversions, all available for your viewing pleasure on demand. More often than not, there will be purchasing guides explaining the product in detail and what to buy in which order to get started. You'll probably also find battle reports, reviews and intro videos linked to be accessed right away. The whole shebang is available at your fingertips nowadays.
Table Top Simulator is a good thing to call out. I don't run in many wargaming circles as I use too but with the Modiphius stuff (Fallout and Elderscrolls) TTS is a common entry vector for people as Modiphius has their starter sets available and fans have added all the free cards/units (without new models) as extra downloads at no cost. I see mentions of it quite frequently in the various groups relating to those games.
privateer4hire wrote: Provide a central location for play, finding products, linking with other players (about quarter of our players refuse to use social media, for example).
A club would do that better as they have more room for play and there's no awkward social expectation to buy anything as you're already paying for table access.
Clubs can be insular. Also the space you mention that clubs have access to is very situational. And can also cost as much or more than just buying some paints or other stuff.
Albertorius wrote: We're not. I think for many people is mostly a cultural difference. Local stores have NEVER been the focal social points for hobby communities that seem to be in the USA. So here, for many people, what you are trying to assert does not apply. People play at home, or at clubs, and could give a rat's ass that some store has a table.And even so, "the community" thrives.
How do you get people into the game? In the US even people that play private games at home still probably discovered the game at a store or with friends who got into it through a store. Take away that element of "went in to buy MTG, came out with a 40k starter set" and you'd crash the player count.
I'm in the US and haven't discovered a game via a store or someone that saw it at a store in probably 20 years. It's been exclusively internet for a long time now. My group discovers more stuff via Dakka, facebook and Beasts of War then I ever would from a game store.
It’s a pretty ridiculous claim that most people find out about GW in stores. Most stores around here are in less visible locations than, say, Spanky’s Adult Novelties. The LA Battle Bunker was tucked away in the butt end of a strip mall, past the travel agency and the Chinese buffet. Very, very few people just happened to stroll along shopping and come upon it. It’s the kind of location you already have to know about to find.
Back in the day, there was a video game called Dawn of War that brought in a ton of new players. Before that, Sci Fi sites such as Spacebattles spread popularity of the setting, leading new fans to buy the novels, and then eventually the minis. Often one person in a group of friends introduces it to the rest, similar to MtG, boardgames and some video games.
And, as before, that which is presented without evidence...
I haven't played in a store in literally 20 years. I got into 40k because of two friends who had the minis. I know others who got into it through us, not through a store. What applies in parts of the US is not universal. Local Hobby stores are few and far between in Oz, and we need online discounters given the prices we pay.
They are not parasites, and your insistence on naming them as such is utterly absurd.
I can only provide my own experience, but I learned about 40k from my friends, when they would just talk about 40k, and play occasionally. I got into it because my girlfriend ended up being into 40k. At no point had I walked into a store before I decided I wanted to try it. The prices immediately turned me away until I decided to buy a kill team box, for 20% off, on Amazon. Not once did I play in the store, only at my house or my friend's house.
I did play a game of Infinity at the store, but just to see what it was like. I prefer South Park playing in the background, to be honest.
Side part, but I would love to know if there is any data about GW's other avenues of using their IP bringing people into the wargaming hobby, i.e. the video game and books side of things.
And, as before, that which is presented without evidence...
I haven't played in a store in literally 20 years. I got into 40k because of two friends who had the minis. I know others who got into it through us, not through a store. What applies in parts of the US is not universal. Local Hobby stores are few and far between in Oz, and we need online discounters given the prices we pay.
They are not parasites, and your insistence on naming them as such is utterly absurd.
We find ourselves on the same side....
Also, there are FAR FAR more "hobby" stores in the U.S. that aren't "Game Stores" and most stores are for models, trains, RC cars, Comics, Cards, and just about everything OTHER than miniatures and they may or may not carry any miniatures at all.
And, as before, that which is presented without evidence...
I haven't played in a store in literally 20 years. I got into 40k because of two friends who had the minis. I know others who got into it through us, not through a store. What applies in parts of the US is not universal. Local Hobby stores are few and far between in Oz, and we need online discounters given the prices we pay.
They are not parasites, and your insistence on naming them as such is utterly absurd.
There is still room for hobby stores that offer gaming space, even in Australia. In Melbourne there's a store that is huge, 2 levels, the store part is downstairs and the gaming part is upstairs and you pay to use the tables. They seem to do pretty well for themselves, even though they don't discount at all they've managed to get a customer base both buying products and paying to play on the tables. I honestly don't know how they pay for the size of the store they have, cheap rent maybe, perhaps it's an elaborate front for nefarious activities, but the owner claims he's doing okay, lol.
Most physical stores around here do discount somewhat, but these folks seem to have found a niche in having a large selection of options and not discounting. I have no idea what their breakdown is in terms of what makes them money, they have a pretty big GW range but it probably only takes up 10% of their downstairs area.
We had a game store (that still around, but kind of far now) called Alternate Worlds... It was a Comic book shop that had RPGs that kind of became an RPG shop that had comic books. It did not have a place to play and as this was 87/88 was before most of my friends had heard of internet... It was the only place to buy stuff other than the ads in the back of Dragon magazine for mail order stuff. At the Mall, there was Walden books that sold RPGs and K&B toys that on their bottom shelf in their clearance section had all the 1st edition AD&D books for $5... and sat mostly untouched. D&D did not have the popularity it has now obviously... in 89 or 90, my friend bought the original plastic beaky marine box from Alternate Worlds. Which lead to all of us becoming crazy for Warhammer. I think a year or 2 later, a Games Workshop store opened up in Towson. We never played there as it was too far to walk too and this was before any of us could drive. in 94 or so, MTG became popular and we played at another shop in Towson that had gaming space for MTG and Vampire the Masquerade games in the basement. I never played Vampire there, but did play a bit of Magic.
During this time, you would meet people on message boards and show up at strangers houses to play Magic and trade cards.
Edit: Sorry for going so far off topic, but the thread kind of got me a little nostalgic.
H.B.M.C. wrote: And, as before, that which is presented without evidence...
I haven't played in a store in literally 20 years. I got into 40k because of two friends who had the minis. I know others who got into it through us, not through a store. What applies in parts of the US is not universal. Local Hobby stores are few and far between in Oz, and we need online discounters given the prices we pay.
They are not parasites, and your insistence on naming them as such is utterly absurd.
I remember seeing surveys 20 years ago that most people introduced into gaming were brought in by their friends, which is how I got into every game I ever played - someone else I knew got into it, it looked cool, so I got into it too.
Hobby shops with gaming space are neigh well unknown around here. What was prized was variety of product and inventory, not a place to play Battletech or whatever. You could do that at home, what you wanted was the rules and minis and such.
So I'm interested if there is any marketing data behind the claim. I've been at best tangentially following GW for the last decade, so I'm not sure where things stand.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Side part, but I would love to know if there is any data about GW's other avenues of using their IP bringing people into the wargaming hobby, i.e. the video game and books side of things.
In the 2000’s, Barnes and Noble carried Warhammer 40,000 products. That’s where I got Battle for Macragge and a whole bunch of Tyranids and old-style Genestealers. When they stopped carrying the line, it all went on clearance. I bought a bunch of stuff at 75%off.
Now all Barnes and Noble carries are the exclusive board games with a handful of minis in them. Still, that is a mainstream presence that actual hobby shops can’t match.
TheBestBucketHead wrote: Barnes and Noble is a leech on the hobby. If you can afford it at 75% off, you can afford it at full price. You just need to save a little bit more.
Overread wrote: Games can 100% exist without local store support. It's much harder and often relies on either friend groups that might never expand much beyond the initial setup, but which stay true to playing for a long time; or a very keen few people at the top who organise, invest in and make sure the club advertises and keeps getting new blood in. Local stores do make it a lot easier typically as the store acts as a marketing and focal point. New people walk in and buy stuff and can be told about the local club(s); the street advertising lures in new people and the direct model support can sometimes be beneficial with things like "club members get 5% discount" etc.. So no store can certainly work; but having a store is superior to not having one.
That's my pre-pandemic experience as well, in Silicon Valley, where there's tech and money. Game Kastle is the only store with gaming space, and it's Magic, Warhammer 40K, then random other games, such as boardgame meetups. Other Meetups and the long-running Los Altos boardgame group (15+ years) are still boardgames, mostly Euros. My guess is that GW also pushes the collecting and painting aspects, so you have hobbyists who buy without playing the game and game stores are useful because they have table space that not all gamers have. Magic's business model is impressive -- they support game store only events (eg. prerelease tournaments), yet also sell through the internet, and have non-gaming aspects (collecting). IIRC, GW used to be against independent online stores as well? I think GW's against discounts because discounting product decreases "perceived value"; lower prices would give GW games the perception that they are not "premium" games.
In the Osaka area all the GW shops are in out of the way places, and the independent gaming stores are not much better. There is little chance of regular foot traffic to bring in new people to the "hobby" Word of mouth, clubs, the internet, and video games are the main avenues of adding new players.
If anything it's GW the one trying to "leech" the much more successful plastic model/TCG venues where people congregate with chibi figures or random box Sapce Marines.
While I own an online discount seller now, in the days of yore circa 2011 when I was still in college I worked at a game shop.
The wizards Wall, in Melbourne Florida. Hole in the wall joint. It's closed now. Most of the physical store's sales were from magic, although they made most of their cash off eBay sales.
They had consistent money troubles, and closed a few years after I left to make university my priority.
Wargaming happened, but it was a blip on the radar despite a wall of plastics.
That got me thinking back to how I was patient zero to get into GW in my local circle. I'd found photos of old Skaven and Chaos models in either Dragon Magazine or Games Magazine at the elementary school library and need to know more. Why those were in our elementary school library, I will never know. The librarian had no interest in any of that satanic and immoral RPG stuff. I often wonder what happened to that vast treasure trove.
But the damage was done and I needed my grimdark future stuff. This was in the late 80s so I really had to do my legwork to make the connections between RPGs and wargames, and somehow got the local B.Dalton Booksellers to get a copy of Rogue Trader for me.
The damage from that initial outbreak has been immeasurable with how many others I may have influenced in all the games and discussions since, and even back then I was getting into some dankly obscure stuff. I was totally the guy who would contact a lot of those companies in the back of Dragon magazine to continue the hunt.
Not once did I ever set foot in a game store to play or purchase in those early days. They just weren't around, and if they were, I had no idea where they existed. I wouldn't find my first one until early in high school, and by then I'd already started to dabble into all sorts of tabletop weirdness.
In fact, I have yet to actually go inside a GW shop. Walked past one once though when it used to be in the mall decades ago.
The one in the Ontario Mills Mall? The manager there was pretty cool. He showed us some leaked pages from Horus Rising back when people were excited for the upcoming Horus Heresy novels.
privateer4hire wrote: Provide a central location for play, finding products, linking with other players (about quarter of our players refuse to use social media, for example).
A club would do that better as they have more room for play and there's no awkward social expectation to buy anything as you're already paying for table access.
Clubs can be insular.
So can game stores. I've been made fun of, by the owners, for liking certain games that they find dumb let alone all the GW players that would call all the other, much cheaper games, kiddy games and such. It really depends on the people running the store or club.
The worst one I've ever been in was in the Mall out here. It's closed now but the front half was just board games and had awesome employees, that know how to actually interact with people, but the back half was where the RPGs and miniatures were and the owner and employees there were troglodytes to keep things PG. Super bright and clean but you had to know to only interact with the people in the board game section and ask them to grab things from the second half as you'd literally get the owner calling you a moron for buying something he was selling as it was "Stupid" and he shouldn't have stocked that. Was dumbfounded that store lasted about 10 years in prime mall space and have no idea how many people that bright "welcoming" looking store scared away from the hobby but apparently they made almost all their money selling boardgames around Christmas time.
On the other hand there's one store here, closest to me, that's your typical dungeon like game store that's easy to miss when driving by with little lighting. My nephews, when they were kids, never wanted to go there when I offered to get them pokemon cards or something else just off of how it looked. I would never go inside this store just by walking past it as it looks like a place that's you are likely not welcome if you're not in the "in group" but it's actually the opposite as the owner is really nice and doesn't put up with crap from anyone and I've seen him out right ban people from the store for not respecting others and suspend people from playing in the weekly games as well. It's a total GW/MtG place but it's where I buy paints if I realize I need something for what I'm working on but no one walks in to just look around.
As a matter of fact- It's a great time to be a gamer, and It's a great time to be gaming.
This is very true. While the amazing selection out there causes a lot of issues with stores not being able to stock everything and other distribution related stuff it's amazing what's out there and the quality of it. There's practically a game for everyone from indy games thanks to drive through all the way up to everything GW offers.
We can argue about the precise details of whether real stores are "a substantial source of new players", "the biggest source of new players", etc. My experience is that it's the majority, other people can disagree. But I will ask you this: what percentage of new customers can GW afford to lose without going into the death spiral? Let's say in-store recruitment is only 25% of new customers, and 75% of new customers are joining the game through hearing about the game outside of a store and buy all their stuff through online-only discount sellers. What do you think will happen if GW loses that 25%? Will they eat the loss, or will they feel the pressure to do an immediate 30% price increase to compensate for the lack of volume with higher per-sale profit and make next quarter's financial report look good? How many people will buy their last few kits at the higher price point and then quit buying? And how much will GW raise prices again to desperately try to offset the second wave of lost customers and make the next financial report look acceptable? Or will they decide to cut costs by dropping half their product lines and focusing on primaris marines? Will GW decide to sell high before the collapse and auction the IP off to the highest bidder? Once the death spiral starts it can go from "everything is fine" to disaster very quickly.
This is why real stores are essential to the hobby and why online discounters that undercut real stores and push them to stop supporting GW games are a major threat. You personally may not benefit from that store's support but you really don't want to see the results of them withdrawing it.
Altruizine wrote: I agree, let's get back to the more reasonable, provable claims like, "Discounters are parasites who are ruining the hobby" versus "Free market capitalism is working as intended, actually."
Yes, let's. And let's start with an example we can all agree on: ticket scalpers. They use bots to buy out an entire venue within seconds of tickets going on sale, faster than any human can possibly get a ticket, and then immediately put their tickets up for sale at a higher price. So:
Is this legal? Depending on your jurisdiction, yes.
Is it a rational thing to do in a free market? Yes, the scalper is clearly making a profit and has incentive to continue doing so.
Are the scalpers parasites? Absolutely yes. They extract money from the situation but add nothing of value to the customer, they simply drive up prices and pocket a bunch of money. If every scalper was magically removed from existence and scalping was no longer possible the real customers would clearly be better off.
Do artists/sports teams/etc have an incentive to get rid of scalpers? Yes. They make tickets less accessible to real fans, create frustration and anger that is often directed at the artist/team/etc or venue rather than the scalper, and they'd be perfectly happy with a bunch of half-empty venues as long as the half of the tickets they did sell were at a high enough price to make them a net profit. And that's why at least some sellers are making an effort to limit the scalpers and ensure that more tickets go to legitimate fans who want to attend the event.
Is pointing out that the scalpers are acting as rational sellers in a free market and doing nothing illegal a compelling argument? No.
I'm fascinated by this thread. It's like a slow-motion train wreck in so many ways.
I buy pretty much everything ar the odd spray can online. The main two Aussie places I buy GW stuff from are both online and offer discounts. One has GW at 15% off and one at 20% off. Both are also physical stores. One has been around for at least a decade, and the other has been around in various forms and locations with different owners for ...close to 40 years. - Which is significantly longer than GW has had either a retail or wholesale presence in Australia.
To my knowledge neither of them offer gaming space that I can see from their websites, and I've never seen mention of it visa their newsletters, facebook pages, etc).
Now let's play:
ARE.
THEY.
PARASITES?
Next game.
I get my historicals via online orders from two different B&M stores and one eBay discounter. All three are in Australia as I am, but all are interstate. We know that the eBay discounter is a "parasite" since they don't have a retail outlet, so we'll skip them for this discussion.
One B&M retailer is mostly trains and models and does toy soldiers as a side gig. They do have a free shipping threshold.
The other mostly sells historicals and has a flat shipping rate. Sometimes they sell stuff for more than what passes for AU RRP (from referencing the distributor's website or other, similar retailers) - you want HOW MUCH for Saga: Alexander?
Neither particularly discounts stuff by any standard, we don't have an official RRP for most historical stuff here - we have a distributor who is also a retailer for some products, but as far as most items go, one often is cheaper than other which influences which items I buy from where. Neither of these B&M store offers in-store gaming either as one appears to mostly be a train store while the other is more of a bookshop.
Once again, let's play:
ARE.
THEY.
PARASITES?
Also, I sometimes purchase gaming rulebooks from Amazon. Mostly Osprey type stuff. Again, no "proper" retail distribution here and RRP seems to be whatever different retailers feel like selling these books for. Often (usually) I never get around to playing these games, bu tthey can make for an interesting read, they look nice on the shelf and I would never have bought them if I didn't see them reasonably cheap on Amazon.
Same question, but with Amazon this time..
Good question. If GW allowed you to buy direct from them at the price they sell to retail stores at would you ever buy anything from the online discount seller?
I won't comment on the non-GW stuff because I don't play those games and have no idea what the community or retail situation is with them.
Altruizine wrote: I agree, let's get back to the more reasonable, provable claims like, "Discounters are parasites who are ruining the hobby" versus "Free market capitalism is working as intended, actually."
Yes, let's. And let's start with an example we can all agree on: ticket scalpers. They use bots to buy out an entire venue within seconds of tickets going on sale, faster than any human can possibly get a ticket, and then immediately put their tickets up for sale at a higher price. So:
Ticket scalpers take a product with limited availablilty and leverage that to sell way above the intended retail price. Online retailers selling paints & models take a fraction of the available stock for a product and sell it below the intended retail price.
I'm not defending GW on this but I read a news article that stated that the UK government has massively increased tax on companies that use warehouse space.
Amazon, for example, will be paying 144% more tax on warehousing than last year.
With GW opening their huge distribution hub, in partnership with Amazon, this might be putting the squeeze on them a bit. Although we don't know what tax on warehousing they paid last year, so it might sound like a huge leap but might not be in reality.
Are the scalpers parasites? Absolutely yes. They extract money from the situation but add nothing of value to the customer, they simply drive up prices and pocket a bunch of money. If every scalper was magically removed from existence and scalping was no longer possible the real customers would clearly be better off.
Well I was sort of following you but now I'm really confused? How would real customers be better off if the scalpers didn't exist?
Are the scalpers parasites? Absolutely yes. They extract money from the situation but add nothing of value to the customer, they simply drive up prices and pocket a bunch of money. If every scalper was magically removed from existence and scalping was no longer possible the real customers would clearly be better off.
Well I was sort of following you but now I'm really confused? How would real customers be better off if the scalpers didn't exist?
Because they can buy tickets directly from the venue/artist at MSRP instead of from the scalper at 500% of MSRP? Where do you see the real customer getting any value whatsoever from the scalper existing?
Are the scalpers parasites? Absolutely yes. They extract money from the situation but add nothing of value to the customer, they simply drive up prices and pocket a bunch of money. If every scalper was magically removed from existence and scalping was no longer possible the real customers would clearly be better off.
Well I was sort of following you but now I'm really confused? How would real customers be better off if the scalpers didn't exist?
Because they can buy tickets directly from the venue/artist at MSRP instead of from the scalper at 500% of MSRP? Where do you see the real customer getting any value whatsoever from the scalper existing?
So, you're saying there's value in a customer being able to get a product cheaper?
Good question. If GW allowed you to buy direct from them at the price they sell to retail stores at would you ever buy anything from the online discount seller?
I won't comment on the non-GW stuff because I don't play those games and have no idea what the community or retail situation is with them.
Being quite honest, if I couldn't get a substantial discount on GW stuff, I would not buy any of it. Aussie prices, baby! The discount is the only reason I'm willing to buy any of it.
And yes, I can afford it. I can whale all day and all night if I want to. I don't need to save for an extra week. For me it's the value proposition. Even with discounts there's enough stuff priced at whai I can only call "feth that for a joke!" levels.
If GW allowed me to purchase from GW at the same prices that I can get from the retailers, I'd still support both online retailers with the caveat of "online only" product that the retailers can't get hold of. I've been purchasing all manner of minis and board games and the odd bit of GW from the one place for over 10 years now and have good service and "know" the owner pretty well for an email relationship. One is seeing if they can get the new WHQ expansion in for me right now even though there really won't be a discount from GW mail order. The other I've been buying from again after the recent owners took over in the last year or two.
I don't play in stores anyway, so "pay where you play" is meaningless to me these days (though when I did play in stores, I supported them with my purchases).
Oh, you didn't answer the question as to whether this pair of longstanding retailers that have retail space and online discounts but don't offer instore gaming are "parasites". I'm still wanting to know.
Are the scalpers parasites? Absolutely yes. They extract money from the situation but add nothing of value to the customer, they simply drive up prices and pocket a bunch of money. If every scalper was magically removed from existence and scalping was no longer possible the real customers would clearly be better off.
Well I was sort of following you but now I'm really confused? How would real customers be better off if the scalpers didn't exist?
Because they can buy tickets directly from the venue/artist at MSRP instead of from the scalper at 500% of MSRP? Where do you see the real customer getting any value whatsoever from the scalper existing?
But you are the one claiming cheaper price isn't relevant! After all if you can afford to pay for MSRP you can afford scalper price. Either cheaper price is or isn't relevant. You keep claiming it's not. Except now it mystically is...
Altruizine wrote: I agree, let's get back to the more reasonable, provable claims like, "Discounters are parasites who are ruining the hobby" versus "Free market capitalism is working as intended, actually."
Yes, let's. And let's start with an example we can all agree on: ticket scalpers. They use bots to buy out an entire venue within seconds of tickets going on sale, faster than any human can possibly get a ticket, and then immediately put their tickets up for sale at a higher price. So:
Is this legal? Depending on your jurisdiction, yes.
Is it a rational thing to do in a free market? Yes, the scalper is clearly making a profit and has incentive to continue doing so.
Are the scalpers parasites? Absolutely yes. They extract money from the situation but add nothing of value to the customer, they simply drive up prices and pocket a bunch of money. If every scalper was magically removed from existence and scalping was no longer possible the real customers would clearly be better off.
Do artists/sports teams/etc have an incentive to get rid of scalpers? Yes. They make tickets less accessible to real fans, create frustration and anger that is often directed at the artist/team/etc or venue rather than the scalper, and they'd be perfectly happy with a bunch of half-empty venues as long as the half of the tickets they did sell were at a high enough price to make them a net profit. And that's why at least some sellers are making an effort to limit the scalpers and ensure that more tickets go to legitimate fans who want to attend the event.
Is pointing out that the scalpers are acting as rational sellers in a free market and doing nothing illegal a compelling argument? No.
Are you aware 40k also has a scalping problem - and Games Workshop actually went out of their way to try and combat it several times, by making a limit of orders per account/address, by making re-runs of desirable boxes as Made-To-Order, and giving pretty much all new box sets since Indomitus a guarantee that if ordered within the preorder timeframe, they WILL make enough for every paying customers to get one, and that they did all of that because it was bad for their business and bad for their profits?
Now, with that in mind, have you considered the simple fact that Games Workshop offers their full support to online stores, might be evidence they might NOT be parasites?
tneva82 wrote: But you are the one claiming cheaper price isn't relevant! After all if you can afford to pay for MSRP you can afford scalper price.
I never said that price isn't relevant. I said that affordability is not determined by price differences on this scale. I can absolutely afford to pay $500 for a basic marine squad instead of $50 but I sure as hell don't want to and would probably refuse to buy at that point.
Are the scalpers parasites? Absolutely yes. They extract money from the situation but add nothing of value to the customer, they simply drive up prices and pocket a bunch of money. If every scalper was magically removed from existence and scalping was no longer possible the real customers would clearly be better off.
Well I was sort of following you but now I'm really confused? How would real customers be better off if the scalpers didn't exist?
Because they can buy tickets directly from the venue/artist at MSRP instead of from the scalper at 500% of MSRP? Where do you see the real customer getting any value whatsoever from the scalper existing?
Azazelx wrote: [If GW allowed me to purchase from GW at the same prices that I can get from the retailers, I'd still support both online retailers with the caveat of "online only" product that the retailers can't get hold of.
That's not the comparison I was asking about. I was asking if you'd still buy from the online retailer if GW let you buy direct from GW at wholesale prices. At the price the online discounter buys their inventory at, not at the price they sell to you at. Does the discount seller add any value by having your purchase briefly pass through their warehouse on its way to you or would you gladly bypass them entirely and buy direct from GW if GW allowed you to eliminate the middle man?
Then think again. Affordability =/= desire to buy at that price. I can afford a great many things that I choose not to buy because they are not an appealing value.
StraightSilver wrote: I'm not defending GW on this but I read a news article that stated that the UK government has massively increased tax on companies that use warehouse space.
Amazon, for example, will be paying 144% more tax on warehousing than last year.
With GW opening their huge distribution hub, in partnership with Amazon, this might be putting the squeeze on them a bit. Although we don't know what tax on warehousing they paid last year, so it might sound like a huge leap but might not be in reality.
I think the gripe is mainly that they're passing this cost on to independents. I don't remember the numbers, but if GW make half their money through independents and half through their own sales channels, they could raise prices roughly 2.5% to the customer and likely take a hit on sales volume, or 5% to the independent retailer while keeping RRP to hopefully keep the same sales but reduce the income of independents, GW have done the latter.
We'll have to see the annual reports I guess, but aren't GW still making a killing? Or has it dried up post-lockdowns?
Someone earlier mentioned that we're in a recession so expect prices to go up, but hobby spending often goes up in a recession as more expensive ways to spend your time become impractical, so if hobby sales volume goes up it can be a good idea to work to keep prices competitive to take a bigger chunk of the market.
Simple maths says that increasing your profitability allows for loss of sales (by a surprising margin - there's a simple equation but I'm a mathidiot so ill have to look it up).
Loss of sales is near total. You retain some loyal customers out of habit and you retain any walk in customer if you have a brick and mortar store. However nearly all online sales go to the storefront that has the lowest price after P&P.
Of course. For those online retailers.
In general there are ways of sustaining profitability - thinking of GW product in this instance - for B&M locations who are not reliant on shifting piles of stock.
Its very tough at the moment. 5%+ on top of other rising costs maybe the straw that broke the camels back.
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charles_the_dead_lizzard wrote: Our local game club has rooms in our LGS. While the club pays some money for rent, we are still dependent on the existence of the store for the club to exist, mostly because rent is so high in german cities that it is barely affordable to get club space rented anywhere else. Since Corona many customers stayed away, people got used to buy stuff online because the shops were closed for a long time. GW lowering the profit on boxes for retail makes this situation even worse. Current inflation is just adding up to the issue.
So yeah, this new money grab by GW hits my mood hard.
Discounters have lowered the profit expectation for independent sector for the last decade or so.
GW CAN and SHOULD be offering more in the way of marketing and support for B&M stores with gaming space.
Can you clarify something for me?
You seem to be against online retailers or discount online retailers. May I ask why?
I am not against online retail or discount online retailers.
Its a good model to have and if its sustainable more power to you.
However its realistic to say that discounting on GW product has a knock on effect in terms of price expectation. (obviously part and parcel of business). This expectation can be seen as a GW problem which it really isnt. Its solely on the independent sector.
5% on top of trade pricing isn't really an issue. 5% on top of rising costs all round is an issue if market forces already mean that your profit on a product line is already cut.
(And thats just business).
I'm trying to be dispassionate. Its not positive or negative it just is.
And if you speak to scalpers, they'll use the same argument you are. They're providing a "service" - they're making sure that people who can't be online to get a ticket when they go on sale, or who try and miss out, can still get a ticket.
They provide a service for those for whom money is no object to skip the queue.
It's a nonsense, of course, and they are indeed parasites.
But essentially the argument here boils down to the fact that you see no value in money when it comes it GW stuff. Which is fine. But most of us do. For many of us it's a key factor.
Where you're not wrong is that there is potential for, if it's not balanced properly, discounters to do long term damage to the product. And that's also where I think at least I differ from you because: I don't care. If GW go into a "death spiral" so what? The games we have will still exist. They won't be supported by stores any more so there won't be a community or somewhere to go play? Again, don't care, we're not using stores in the first place, that's why we're buying from discount retailers.
There won't be any new releases? Doesn't matter. There will be other games. There are lots of games. I'm really not bothered.
I'd urge you to look at this from the perspective of someone who:
1) plays at home
2) plays with an existing group/partner
3) isn't so attached to 40K/AoS that they'd be actively upset if it went away
4) buys online
Then ask yourself who that group might consider the "parasites".
The reality is lots of us don't value the stores and the community, you do.
The reality is you don't value money, many of us do.
There's no parasites here, just different values and people wanting to pay for the services that have value to them.
Azazelx wrote: [If GW allowed me to purchase from GW at the same prices that I can get from the retailers, I'd still support both online retailers with the caveat of "online only" product that the retailers can't get hold of.
That's not the comparison I was asking about. I was asking if you'd still buy from the online retailer if GW let you buy direct from GW at wholesale prices. At the price the online discounter buys their inventory at, not at the price they sell to you at. Does the discount seller add any value by having your purchase briefly pass through their warehouse on its way to you or would you gladly bypass them entirely and buy direct from GW if GW allowed you to eliminate the middle man?
Actually, you don't get to change the question.
I asked you if either of these stores are "parasites".
The B&M retailer that's been around since the mid-80s or earlier. Long before GW had an actual presence in the country (and doing mail order back in the days of printed catalogues), and the B&M retailer that's been around as an online AND B&M retailer since at least 2009 (I checked) - no idea how long they were around in a physical sense before that.
You can ask me additional questions after you answer that one.
Then think again. Affordability =/= desire to buy at that price. I can afford a great many things that I choose not to buy because they are not an appealing value.
Okay. And most of us choose to buy stuff at 20% off but wouldn't choose to buy it at full price, or would buy much less. Therefore the discounters offer value to us.
Until the current NIB inventory runs out and you're stuck buying ebay salvage if you ever want to add to your collection. And that's going to be horrible for the ability to get new people into a game. Maybe shortages aren't a big deal if you already have everything you want but "yeah, this used to be a cool hobby where you could make your own armies but now all you can do is buy someone else's scraps on ebay and hope nothing is broken too badly" is not a sales pitch many people will find attractive.
But I do agree that if you consider things from the point of view of someone who isn't attached to 40k/AoS and won't care if the games die then sacrificing the long-term existence of the game for 10% off this week's purchases is a great trade.
Charax wrote: Damn you for making me give Discourse Minis a click.
To be fair she thinks any piece of news or new release signals the imminent demise of GW or a sign they're doing something evil.
Not sure a 5.8% increase in trade prices is going to CRUSH local games stores, but it will almost certainly reduce the discounts online retailers can provide, so get your orders in before the 19th.
Very True. Talk about the women that cried wolf....
To be fair, for someones whose whole business is founded on Gw related business. It would be Ironic that hers would be wiped out if GW fell even though she is always calling for it!
Maybe if Games Workshop didn't charge you over a hundred dollars for five Marines in certain parts of the world, it wouldn't be so comically easy to undercut their prices.
Azazelx wrote: I asked you if either of these stores are "parasites".
Given what you have said about them, no. They have physical retail stores and can't just undercut other physical retail stores by eliminating all of the costs of running a store. But those aren't really representative of online discount sellers. When most people talk about discount sellers it's a store with a "physical retail store" that is a warehouse in the cheapest industrial park near Memphis and they're effectively just dropshipping everything to you after taking their cut of the profit.
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TauEmissary wrote: Maybe if Games Workshop didn't charge you over a hundred dollars for five Marines in certain parts of the world, it wouldn't be so comically easy to undercut their prices.
Discount sellers undercutting GW direct is not the problem. Discount sellers undercutting non-GW retail stores is the problem because those retail stores are vital to the long-term health of the hobby and they can't match the prices of an online store with much lower expenses than a real store. What GW sets as MSRP is irrelevant in that comparison.
Have you ever thought about the fact Games Workshop, which famously hates everyone possibly undercutting their yearly profit by the tiniest margin, has literally no problem with discount online stores?
Until the current NIB inventory runs out and you're stuck buying ebay salvage if you ever want to add to your collection. And that's going to be horrible for the ability to get new people into a game. Maybe shortages aren't a big deal if you already have everything you want but "yeah, this used to be a cool hobby where you could make your own armies but now all you can do is buy someone else's scraps on ebay and hope nothing is broken too badly" is not a sales pitch many people will find attractive.
But I do agree that if you consider things from the point of view of someone who isn't attached to 40k/AoS and won't care if the games die then sacrificing the long-term existence of the game for 10% off this week's purchases is a great trade.
I have zero interest in "getting new people into a game" - if I want to get people into gaming, I'll use one of the 300 or so board games I have that are more suited to their preferences. I buy GW stuff because I like painting it, playing Underworlds, and having the occasional game of the larger system. Those systems are not good enough from a rules perspective for me to really care if they stop iterating on them.
All things end, hobbies change and go away, new ones turn up. My other main hobby these days didn't even exist ten years ago. Life goes on. The long term health of a single company in a single hobby space is indeed, of less interest to me than 20% off.
Azazelx wrote: [If GW allowed me to purchase from GW at the same prices that I can get from the retailers, I'd still support both online retailers with the caveat of "online only" product that the retailers can't get hold of.
That's not the comparison I was asking about. I was asking if you'd still buy from the online retailer if GW let you buy direct from GW at wholesale prices. At the price the online discounter buys their inventory at, not at the price they sell to you at. Does the discount seller add any value by having your purchase briefly pass through their warehouse on its way to you or would you gladly bypass them entirely and buy direct from GW if GW allowed you to eliminate the middle man?
This illustrates your fundemental misunderstanding of how businesses work, because there's no plausible scenario where GW ever offers wholesale prices to end customers. These are available because three factors involved are valuable to GW:
1) GW can bulk ship to retailers, which is substantially cheaper than posting individidual boxes & paints to end customers.
2) Retailers effectively subsidise GW's warehousing costs. If ~50% of sales are being made through the B2B channel then GW needs to pay for up to half the warehouse capacity it would otherwise to maintain stock.
3) Retailers also take on risks involved in slow-moving inventory. Once they've bought product from GW it's their problem, and if it ends up not selling for months or years it's the retailer that loses out, not GW.
I see we're at the point where "I don't understand the concept of establishing agreement on a simple case before proceeding to the case being discussed" is considered acceptable grounds for you to make rude and inappropriate comments towards me? Do the forum rules not apply to you?
You can claim the high ground once you've retracted and apologised to McDougall Designs for calling them a parasite.
xttz wrote: This illustrates your fundemental misunderstanding of how businesses work
This illustrates your fundamental misunderstanding of how hypothetical scenarios work. "What if this happened" is not the same as "this is something you should do".
You can claim the high ground once you've retracted and apologised to McDougall Designs for calling them a parasite.
Last time I checked they aren't a dropshipper-in-all-but-name GW discount seller so no, I did not call them any such thing.
Who'da thought this thread would somehow get more interesting with Alty losing his mind over phantom sockpuppets (he does have an active imagination after all...) and trying to fight Orlanth like he'd insulted the guy's mother!
And then, finally, Azazelx jumping in to make things even clearer for our parasite-accusing Emmissary.
We just need Azreal13 to come back into the thread for the coup de grace.
Gue'vesa Emissary wrote: This illustrates your fundamental misunderstanding of how hypothetical scenarios work. "What if this happened" is not the same as "this is something you should do".
Who gives a damn about hypothetical scenarios? No one has to answer any thing you posit when it comes from a grounding of fantasy and weird outrage at normal business-related practices.
We have actual facts and reality here, and you're the one who called people parasites with nothing to back it up.
but GWs margin for retailers is
and if GW is increasing the margin which makes operating the stores more difficult
the problem is not that online-only stores can operate cheaper but that GW makes operating B&M stores more difficult
saying the problem is not GW but the stores selling at a discount is the same as the BOLS article claiming that it is the players fault, who try to compensate GW's mistakes and keep the game running, and not GW making mistakes in the first place
H.B.M.C. wrote: We have actual facts and reality here, and you're the one who called people parasites with nothing to back it up.
This is a fascinating claim you are making here, to have "actual facts and reality" to prove something that is a matter of opinion: whether or not a business is a parasite. Can you explain how this works? Or are you just assuming that because you have said your opinion loudly and frequently that it becomes fact?
And I have backed up my reasons for that accusation over and over and over again. You may not like them but they are there.
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kodos wrote: the problem is not that online-only stores can operate cheaper but that GW makes operating B&M stores more difficult
But this price increase applies to both sellers and the closer everyone gets to MSRP the better. If the online seller is offering a 20% discount and the real store can only afford a 15% discount a 5% increase moves the new discounts to 15% and 10%. And the closer you get to "it's not worth buying online, I'll just buy it at full price locally" the more online discounters and their lack of value are pushed out of the market.
This illustrates your fundamental misunderstanding of how hypothetical scenarios work. "What if this happened" is not the same as "this is something you should do".
Okay, I'll play. If GW sold products direct to me at wholesale prices would I buy from discount retailers? No. I'd just buy direct.
My turn: if discount retailers gave you a free car with every order, would they be parasites then?
deano2099 wrote: Okay, I'll play. If GW sold products direct to me at wholesale prices would I buy from discount retailers? No. I'd just buy direct.
So we are in agreement that the online discount seller is offering nothing of value whatsoever beyond allowing you to use their store account to order from GW? They provide no service to you other than forwarding your order to GW and having it sent to your house?
But this price increase applies to both sellers and the closer everyone gets to MSRP the better. If the online seller is offering a 20% discount and the real store can only afford a 15% discount a 5% increase moves the new discounts to 15% and 10%. And the closer you get to "it's not worth buying online, I'll just buy it at full price locally" the more online discounters and their lack of value are pushed out of the market.
But that will never happen for me, because to buy at full price "locally" will cost me the time and money of actually going to the store, whereas online I get it delivered to my door. So even if the prices were the same, I'd still be buying online. The only way I'd be buying in store is if it was actually cheaper, and even then, I'd pay a small premium to save myself the trip.
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