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Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/15 09:50:24


Post by: Mars, God of War


I posted a message in the Brother Vinni thread to tell people of a miniature currently on sale in their website, and to link back to discussions about it that happened here on Dakka when the miniature was initially released and advertised.
That post seems to have disappeared, without any explanation. Is it a technical glitch or a moderation decision? If it's a moderation decision, what is the rationale behind it? Why didn't I receive a PM?


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/19 12:39:52


Post by: Haighus


I am also very curious, as it was a good post that helped inform people so they could make purchasing decisions in line with their ethics.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/19 21:08:07


Post by: insaniak


It was removed as it was off topic for a news and rumours thread, and was a blatant attempt to stir up drama.



Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/20 00:36:19


Post by: A Town Called Malus


Would it be off topic and a blatant attempt to stir up drama if, say, Daniel Mandelbaum started a news and rumours thread about a new store and people pointed out their previous actions so people could make a fully informed choice as to whether they wanted to support that person with their money?

I know if I found out that I monetarily supported someone who made a model based on incredibly misogynistic propaganda aimed at an opponent of an oppressive regime which is currently invading their neighbour, and that information was actively hidden from me by the site that allowed them to advertise, I'd be very annoyed to say the least.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/20 01:05:34


Post by: insaniak


Nobody has 'actively hidden' anything. The slavegirl thread still exists, and the miniature is seemingly still available from Vinni's website. Vinni's current news thread also still exists, and is a fairly clear example of the sort of work he produces. The incredibly misogynistic nature of his miniature catalogue is pretty blatant even without drive-by posts from new accounts seemingly created purely to stir up drama.



Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/20 11:51:38


Post by: A Town Called Malus


How is removing a post which is telling users about the nature of the artist that dakka is allowing to advertise, at a time when knowledge of propaganda such as that which gave rise to the ukrainian slave girl model in question is even more important than it was at the time of its original discussion as it is currently being used by Russia to justify an invasion, not actively hiding it?

How can you justify allowing misogynistic material to be advertised on dakka but then turn around and remove criticism of that material as being "off topic" or "an attempt to stir up drama?" Surely advertising such material in itself is the attempt to stir up drama, as seen by people who respond to it to point out its misogynistic nature.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/20 13:45:26


Post by: AduroT


 insaniak wrote:
Nobody has 'actively hidden' anything. The slavegirl thread still exists, and the miniature is seemingly still available from Vinni's website. Vinni's current news thread also still exists, and is a fairly clear example of the sort of work he produces. The incredibly misogynistic nature of his miniature catalogue is pretty blatant even without drive-by posts from new accounts seemingly created purely to stir up drama.



I didn’t realize Dakka was pro-misogynistic and content to advertise such.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/20 22:40:52


Post by: insaniak


 A Town Called Malus wrote:
How can you justify allowing misogynistic material to be advertised on dakka but then turn around and remove criticism of that material as being "off topic" or "an attempt to stir up drama?"

To be clear - it was off topic drama-stirring because it was nothing to do with the news thread in which it was posted. Someone created a new account seemingly specifically to comment on a miniature released a decade ago. That's not news, and so doesn't belong in a news thread.


 AduroT wrote:
I didn’t realize Dakka was pro-misogynistic and content to advertise such.

Dakka is not 'pro-misogynistic'. Dakka is also not pro-genocide, or pro-killing-witches, but allows for Warhammer content to be posted because it is relevant to the purpose of the site, which is to talk about miniature gaming. Vinni's range may not be to some peoples' tastes (and it's certainly not to mine) but it's relevant to miniature gaming, so is allowed with appropriate NSFW tagging for the benefit of those who prefer to avoid such things.




Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/21 11:49:38


Post by: Pacific


Really surprised and I have to say disappointed by the 'official' reply here Insaniak.

I have bought minis from Brother Vinni before after reading his news thread on Dakka and, after finding out what some of his range represents, feel soiled for having done so. There now still exists the possibility that someone could do the same, which I think is unnaceptable.

In light at what has happened over the past year it would be very easy for Brother Vinni to remove the contentious items from his store. Not doing so gives a pretty easy read on where his sensitivities lie.

It feels unreal to actually have to be writing this. To me, this is a pretty fething low bar to be able to reach in the context of what is happening in Ukraine. Get the guys thread out of N&R, ban, its that simple. Im sure it wont stop his sales, but at least Dakka will have no part in it, and people should know about it.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/21 13:34:16


Post by: Haighus


Yes, allowing someone to use Dakka's reach and reputation to advertise their products is not a neutral decision, and particularly not when considering what the person in question is supporting.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/21 15:01:43


Post by: usernamesareannoying


why should it be up to dakka to be the morality police?
shouldnt that be up to the buyer?


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/21 15:37:42


Post by: A Town Called Malus


 usernamesareannoying wrote:
why should it be up to dakka to be the morality police?
shouldnt that be up to the buyer?


Why should it be up to Dakka to determine what they feel is suitable for their site? I mean, would they allow a user to advertise "Globalist Banker" miniatures which just so happen to be perfect representations of anti-semitic stereotypes and propaganda? Or how about "Tribal Spearchucker" featuring all the hallmarks of racist black stereotypes.

Because that is the equivalent of the "ukrainian slave girl".


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/21 15:38:15


Post by: Haighus


 usernamesareannoying wrote:
why should it be up to dakka to be the morality police?
shouldnt that be up to the buyer?

That would be an option... except the post informing potential customers and allowing them to come to their own conclusions was deleted. By Dakka. Which means they are choosing to police, at which point...

You can read the rest of the thread to find this out, it is the entire reason it exists.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 usernamesareannoying wrote:
why should it be up to dakka to be the morality police?
shouldnt that be up to the buyer?


Why should it be up to Dakka to determine what they feel is suitable for their site? I mean, would they allow a user to advertise "Globalist Banker" miniatures which just so happen to be perfect representations of anti-semitic stereotypes and propaganda? Or how about "Tribal Spearchucker" featuring all the hallmarks of racist black stereotypes.

Because that is the equivalent of the "ukrainian slave girl".

It is worse than that, because the model in question was overtly based on a particular politician opposed to the regime that the creator is resident in and presumably supports.

This is more like if your "globalist banker" model happened to look just like George Soros or something...


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/21 16:03:27


Post by: AduroT


 usernamesareannoying wrote:
why should it be up to dakka to be the morality police?
shouldnt that be up to the buyer?


Well if Dakka isn’t going to be the morality police how about we just ditch rule #1 and let people go hog wild.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/21 16:12:10


Post by: Herzlos


 insaniak wrote:

Dakka is not 'pro-misogynistic'.


Are you sure? Because that's how it looks to the outside. Horribly indefensibly misogynistic mini's are defended and anyone pointing out how tasteless (for lack of a better word) they are, are silenced. There's precious little to keep me browsing Dakka at the best of times, the last thing I want is content that makes me actually think "eww".

The gaming world seems to be pretty misogynistic on the whole, but at least some people are trying to address that and at least trying to avoid chasing away what few women are actually interested in the hobby.

Let's be realistic here; we're not talking about a random generic slave miniature here, but one modelled on a real person who is in a country that's currently being invaded by the artists country. That it's even open to debate is weird.

Vinni has some incredible miniatures, but is totally letting himself and the site down by posting a few that just aren't acceptable in polite society. I wouldn't play someone who brought out that mini, and it doesn't look like I'm alone.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/21 17:00:31


Post by: Hivefleet Oblivion


Wow. I did see and subsequently avoided a thread mentioned here but didn't comprehend exactly how dodgy it was. Thanks for alerting me, folks.

Would've thought it's the model in question that's stirring up drama, not those who call it out. I hope the management reconsider.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/21 19:05:51


Post by: Wolfblade


I think something important for Dakka mods to keep in mind is the implications of allowing or not allowing certain posts. By allowing Vinny to keep their misogynistic models up, Dakka implicitly says, "Yes, this misogynistic content is ok." By taking down a post designed to inform other users, Dakka is implicitly saying "It is not ok to inform others of who they're buying from."

I'm sure someone else can put it into words better, but my point is by allowing one sort of post and then deleting another carries implicit approval and disapproval of those posts. These actions have said "it is ok to be sexist" and "it is not ok to inform others that the person they are buying from is sexist." And the reasoning doesn't help either. "It isn't the content that's the problem, it's the people who are pointing out that it's problematic who are the problem. They're ones trying to stir up drama, not the modelmaker who's purposefully trying to be controversial."

And of course, that's not even really taking into context the whole Ukrainian part of the "Ukrainian slavegirl."


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/21 19:50:09


Post by: insaniak


 Wolfblade wrote:
By taking down a post designed to inform other users, Dakka is implicitly saying "It is not ok to inform others of who they're buying from."

And this, I think, is where the disconnect is coming from. I didn't take down a post designed to inform other users of something. I took down a post from a drive-by account that was designed to stir up controversy. Which is, going by this ensuing discussion, exactly what it did.


So far as allowing this sort of miniature content in the first place... it's certainly possible that it's time for another discussion around that. When we've had similar discussions in the past (IIRC around the Manufactura range or the infamous Eldar rape diorama) any suggestion of us not allowing these sorts of ranges on the site was met with accusations of puritanical fascist censorship. And so the decision was made to allow it and let people decide for themselves whether or not to support the companies making these sorts of miniatures. If we start censoring release threads based on what we personally think is appropriate for the table, we potentially make it harder for people to make informed decisions.



Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/21 20:06:04


Post by: Wolfblade


 insaniak wrote:
 Wolfblade wrote:
By taking down a post designed to inform other users, Dakka is implicitly saying "It is not ok to inform others of who they're buying from."

And this, I think, is where the disconnect is coming from. I didn't take down a post designed to inform other users of something. I took down a post from a drive-by account that was designed to stir up controversy. Which is, going by this ensuing discussion, exactly what it did.

Frankly, this seems like a weak excuse and a mischaracterization of the post. I don't think the intent was to "stir up drama" but to inform others of who they're buying from. I feel this mod action was done and now justifications are being looked for to see what sticks, but that might be partly my history and view of dakka's moderation always siding with the person instigating the issue.

Plus, the literal years of allowing rape fantasy models feed into the half you left out. Hell, I reported a bunch of the models and I know others did too, so I guess that type of content is ok and endorsed by dakka?

 insaniak wrote:

So far as allowing this sort of miniature content in the first place... it's certainly possible that it's time for another discussion around that. When we've had similar discussions in the past (IIRC around the Manufactura range or the infamous Eldar rape diorama) any suggestion of us not allowing these sorts of ranges on the site was met with accusations of puritanical fascist censorship. And so the decision was made to allow it and let people decide for themselves whether or not to support the companies making these sorts of miniatures. If we start censoring release threads based on what we personally think is appropriate for the table, we potentially make it harder for people to make informed decisions.

Yeah, I'd personally say the wrong decision was reached in the first place. I don't know how "welcoming" dakka intends to be to newer players and hobbyists, but allowing misogynistic content or rape fantasy stuff inherently makes the space less welcoming, and attracts the unwashed basement dweller sort. The nudity isn't really the issue, it's the way it's used (although the nudity tends to attract those who generally need to go and touch some grass too). Also, sometimes the right decision isn't the popular decision. Making rules based purely on what's popular will always have problems, but that's for a different discussion on a different forum probably as it'd inevitably devolve into political comparisons.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/21 20:26:28


Post by: insaniak


 Wolfblade wrote:

Frankly, this seems like a weak excuse and a mischaracterization of the post. I don't think the intent was to "stir up drama" but to inform others of who they're buying from.

You're welcome to think that. I disagree. The way the post was written and the fact that it was written by a brand new account very strongly said that it was just drama-bait.




Yeah, I'd personally say the wrong decision was reached in the first place. I don't know how "welcoming" dakka intends to be to newer players and hobbyists, but allowing misogynistic content or rape fantasy stuff inherently makes the space less welcoming, and attracts the unwashed basement dweller sort. The nudity isn't really the issue, it's the way it's used (although the nudity tends to attract those who generally need to go and touch some grass too). Also, sometimes the right decision isn't the popular decision. Making rules based purely on what's popular will always have problems, but that's for a different discussion on a different forum probably as it'd inevitably devolve into political comparisons.

It's less about making decisions based on what's popular and more about making decisions that aren't going to lead to more problems than they solve. Currently, people can see Vinni's range and choose whether or not to support that business. If we start censoring parts of the range, we make that less clear because people only see the sanitised version of his range, and we open ourselves up to continual accusations of bias and arguments over whether or not a given model crosses the line. Personally, I would rather have the ability to make an informed decision myself. Your mileage may vary.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/21 20:48:14


Post by: Kanluwen


Is there still an up-front, made abundantly clear reason why that particular model causes this drama though?

Genuine question. I've stopped following that thread long ago specifically because of trash like that.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/21 21:12:43


Post by: Wolfblade


 insaniak wrote:
 Wolfblade wrote:

Frankly, this seems like a weak excuse and a mischaracterization of the post. I don't think the intent was to "stir up drama" but to inform others of who they're buying from.

You're welcome to think that. I disagree. The way the post was written and the fact that it was written by a brand new account very strongly said that it was just drama-bait.

Yeah, I'd personally say the wrong decision was reached in the first place. I don't know how "welcoming" dakka intends to be to newer players and hobbyists, but allowing misogynistic content or rape fantasy stuff inherently makes the space less welcoming, and attracts the unwashed basement dweller sort. The nudity isn't really the issue, it's the way it's used (although the nudity tends to attract those who generally need to go and touch some grass too). Also, sometimes the right decision isn't the popular decision. Making rules based purely on what's popular will always have problems, but that's for a different discussion on a different forum probably as it'd inevitably devolve into political comparisons.

It's less about making decisions based on what's popular and more about making decisions that aren't going to lead to more problems than they solve. Currently, people can see Vinni's range and choose whether or not to support that business. If we start censoring parts of the range, we make that less clear because people only see the sanitised version of his range, and we open ourselves up to continual accusations of bias and arguments over whether or not a given model crosses the line. Personally, I would rather have the ability to make an informed decision myself. Your mileage may vary.


First, dakka has already long since opened itself up to criticism by allowing the Heckler's Veto basically everywhere. Female Space Marines spring to mind, is that topic still banned? Didn't a thread based entirely on supporting those affected by the war in Ukraine get shut down because people got political? I'm sure there are numerous other examples too. Basically, my point is dakka makes the easy choice, not the right or correct choice. Instead of punishing or reprimanding those who are consistently toxic, dakka punishes everyone BUT them. They, ironically, get exactly what they want.

Finally, I don't think the only options are "censor part of the range" or "censor nothing." You could just not allow them any more than you'd allow Daniel Mandelbaum. You could determine people who make certain types of models (i.e. rape fantasy stuff) don't deserve to promote themselves on this site. Basically, you don't have to give them a platform, or even a partial platform to sell their stuff on. And if people complain, tell them to report it stuff that violates the rules and then deal with it as appropriate.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Is there still an up-front, made abundantly clear reason why that particular model causes this drama though?

Genuine question. I've stopped following that thread long ago specifically because of trash like that.

Personally, it's not just that one model (although that model has a lot of baggage based on when it came out and it being specifically Ukrainian), but all of their rape fantasy models.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/21 21:33:55


Post by: insaniak


 Wolfblade wrote:

First, dakka has already long since opened itself up to criticism by allowing the Heckler's Veto basically everywhere. Female Space Marines spring to mind, is that topic still banned? Didn't a thread based entirely on supporting those affected by the war in Ukraine get shut down because people got political? I'm sure there are numerous other examples too. Basically, my point is dakka makes the easy choice, not the right or correct choice. Instead of punishing or reprimanding those who are consistently toxic, dakka punishes everyone BUT them. They, ironically, get exactly what they want.

This is actually a really good illustration of the problem with drawing lines. There is a fairly extensive list of problem posters who have been permanently removed from this site... but because we don't act on certain accounts that you see as a problem, or don't do so in the way you personally expect, you apparently believe that we don't actually deal with toxic posters at all. The problem isn't that we don't deal with toxic posters, it's that we don't put the threshold for action in the same place you might.


Finally, I don't think the only options are "censor part of the range" or "censor nothing." You could just not allow them any more than you'd allow Daniel Mandelbaum. You could determine people who make certain types of models (i.e. rape fantasy stuff) don't deserve to promote themselves on this site. Basically, you don't have to give them a platform, or even a partial platform to sell their stuff on. And if people complain, tell them to report it stuff that violates the rules and then deal with it as appropriate.

OK, so we ban Vinni, and Manufactura. And then what? Do we ban Hasslefree for making nude and politically-inspired models? Do we ban 40K for promoting genocide?

Yes, that's a slippery slope argument, but it's to make a point. We wouldn't promote Mandelbaum on the site because he was engaged in actual criminal behaviour. That's very different to banning miniature producers because they make a model that depicts a subject we find personally distasteful, and once we start doing that we wind up with endless arguments about which other models are also distasteful enough to warrant their manufacturers being censored.

I don't think it's so much about the 'easy choice' as about not putting some fairly unrealistic and unfair expectations on a bunch of hobbyists who moderate a gaming forum in their spare time. We're here to try to keep the forum running in a more or less congenial fashion, not to be self-appointed morality police.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/21 21:46:34


Post by: Wolfblade


 insaniak wrote:
 Wolfblade wrote:

First, dakka has already long since opened itself up to criticism by allowing the Heckler's Veto basically everywhere. Female Space Marines spring to mind, is that topic still banned? Didn't a thread based entirely on supporting those affected by the war in Ukraine get shut down because people got political? I'm sure there are numerous other examples too. Basically, my point is dakka makes the easy choice, not the right or correct choice. Instead of punishing or reprimanding those who are consistently toxic, dakka punishes everyone BUT them. They, ironically, get exactly what they want.

This is actually a really good illustration of the problem with drawing lines. There is a fairly extensive list of problem posters who have been permanently removed from this site... but because we don't act on certain accounts that you see as a problem, or don't do so in the way you personally expect, you apparently believe that we don't actually deal with toxic posters at all. The problem isn't that we don't deal with toxic posters, it's that we don't put the threshold for action in the same place you might.


I'm not even talking about full bans, but section bans. There were certain users who were incredibly toxic to any remotely political or political adjacent topic that would consistently act in a manner to get the threads shut down( A mod even did this) and they never got slapped with any punishments. Instead, everyone else got punished because now the topic is banned. Same with Female Space Marines, and I assume the War in Ukraine topic.

 insaniak wrote:

Finally, I don't think the only options are "censor part of the range" or "censor nothing." You could just not allow them any more than you'd allow Daniel Mandelbaum. You could determine people who make certain types of models (i.e. rape fantasy stuff) don't deserve to promote themselves on this site. Basically, you don't have to give them a platform, or even a partial platform to sell their stuff on. And if people complain, tell them to report it stuff that violates the rules and then deal with it as appropriate.

OK, so we ban Vinni, and Manufactura. And then what? Do we ban Hasslefree for making nude and politically-inspired models? Do we ban 40K for promoting genocide?

Yes, that's a slippery slope argument, but it's to make a point. We wouldn't promote Mandelbaum on the site because he was engaged in actual criminal behaviour. That's very different to banning miniature producers because they make a model that depicts a subject we find personally distasteful, and once we start doing that we wind up with endless arguments about which other models are also distasteful enough to warrant their manufacturers being censored.

I don't think it's so much about the 'easy choice' as about not putting some fairly unrealistic and unfair expectations on a bunch of hobbyists who moderate a gaming forum in their spare time. We're here to try to keep the forum running in a more or less congenial fashion, not to be self-appointed morality police.


Again, the issue isn't nudity, but the rape slave fantasy associated with said nudity. Also, in case you missed it, 40k is not pro-genocide. Everything in 40k is either a parody or satirical take on something in real life. It is not endorsing genocide or promoting it in any fashion. If you believe it is, congrats, you've missed the entire point of 40k and a very public statement by GW.

Also, dakka's moderation is typically all about the "easiest" choice. It's "easier" to ban talking about FSM than it is to deal with people throwing tantrums that someone enjoys the hobby differently. It's easier to ban talking about Ukraine or politics than it is to reprimand those who consistently make it a shitshow.

It's easier to ban what you think is a "drive-by account" than it is to deal with the rape slave fantasy models.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/21 22:33:25


Post by: Herzlos


 insaniak wrote:

OK, so we ban Vinni, and Manufactura. And then what? Do we ban Hasslefree for making nude and politically-inspired models? Do we ban 40K for promoting genocide?


You can surely tell the difference between a Hasslefree nude mini and a rape fantasy mini, right?

40K doesn't promote genocide either. It's a parody game showing how pointless never ending war is.

That's very different to banning miniature producers because they make a model that depicts a subject we find personally distasteful, and once we start doing that we wind up with endless arguments about which other models are also distasteful enough to warrant their manufacturers being censored.


It's not about being personally distasteful, it's about it being distasteful to the community at large. Would you paint one of Vinnis slave girls and show it to your gran at Christmas dinner? Or on a display at a convention or open gaming? I bet not.

Tabletop gaming, and Dakka, have a bit of a reputation already for being, well, creepy, and not very welcoming to new people, because of exactly that sort of thing. I wonder how many women have been interested in gaming, been browsing the news/rumours section, seen the tacit endorsement of stuff like that and gone "gak no, I'm out"? We'll never know, because they won't post about it.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/21 22:33:33


Post by: Spartacus


Haha, this thread is a great example of why they prune this sort of stuff. Everyone with a horse in the race can't help but ooze their agenda when posting.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/21 22:42:23


Post by: Catulle


 Wolfblade wrote:
I think something important for Dakka mods to keep in mind is the implications of allowing or not allowing certain posts. By allowing Vinny to keep their misogynistic models up, Dakka implicitly says, "Yes, this misogynistic content is ok." By taking down a post designed to inform other users, Dakka is implicitly saying "It is not ok to inform others of who they're buying from."

I'm sure someone else can put it into words better, but my point is by allowing one sort of post and then deleting another carries implicit approval and disapproval of those posts. These actions have said "it is ok to be sexist" and "it is not ok to inform others that the person they are buying from is sexist." And the reasoning doesn't help either. "It isn't the content that's the problem, it's the people who are pointing out that it's problematic who are the problem. They're ones trying to stir up drama, not the modelmaker who's purposefully trying to be controversial."

And of course, that's not even really taking into context the whole Ukrainian part of the "Ukrainian slavegirl."


Yep. It's damning with respect to the site's editorial biases.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/21 22:53:47


Post by: nfe


 insaniak wrote:

And this, I think, is where the disconnect is coming from. I didn't take down a post designed to inform other users of something. I took down a post from a drive-by account that was designed to stir up controversy. Which is, going by this ensuing discussion, exactly what it did.


Could this be resolved by having a standalone thread posted by an established user discussing what people think are appropriate or inappropriate depictions in miniatures? Is there a subforum you think best fits that?

I think the Ukrainian slave girl model deserves being flagged to people, but I'd also be really interested in that discussion around a lot of inspired-by models and historicals lines.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/21 23:00:53


Post by: Herzlos


nfe wrote:
 insaniak wrote:

And this, I think, is where the disconnect is coming from. I didn't take down a post designed to inform other users of something. I took down a post from a drive-by account that was designed to stir up controversy. Which is, going by this ensuing discussion, exactly what it did.


Could this be resolved by having a standalone thread posted by an established user discussing what people think are appropriate or inappropriate depictions in miniatures? Is there a subforum you think best fits that?

I think the Ukrainian slave girl model deserves being flagged to people, but I'd also be really interested in that discussion around a lot of inspired-by models and historicals lines.


Good shout. If you're going to go with mob rule, then it'd make sense to figure out what the mob want first


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/22 00:14:04


Post by: Catulle


nfe wrote:
 insaniak wrote:

And this, I think, is where the disconnect is coming from. I didn't take down a post designed to inform other users of something. I took down a post from a drive-by account that was designed to stir up controversy. Which is, going by this ensuing discussion, exactly what it did.

I think the Ukrainian slave girl model deserves being flagged to people, but I'd also be really interested in that discussion around a lot of inspired-by models and historicals lines.


What you have is a commercial poster with a history of throwing out Nationalist propaganda who also has this weird thing for sculpting femme humiliation porn. Without explanation or discussion. This, the site feels, is just fine and worthy to continue.

For ten fething years.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/22 01:31:40


Post by: insaniak


nfe wrote:
Could this be resolved by having a standalone thread posted by an established user discussing what people think are appropriate or inappropriate depictions in miniatures? Is there a subforum you think best fits that?

I think the Ukrainian slave girl model deserves being flagged to people, but I'd also be really interested in that discussion around a lot of inspired-by models and historicals lines.

In theory, this would absolutely be an appropriate topic for Dakka Discussions.

In practice, I fear it would quickly devolve into posters insulting each other for their differing opinions on this particular subject, but it would be worth a shot. It would certainly be useful to have broader opinions from the community on this.



Edit - I will also mention that previous discussions on this sort of thing were a while back now, and attitudes within the gaming community towards women and minorities have been slowly evolving (for the better, IMO) over that time. As such, and seeing the feedback here so far, it's something that I'll be looking to discuss with the mod team and the site's owners to try to establish an appropriate policy moving forwards.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/22 02:10:03


Post by: usernamesareannoying


How many of us in this thread wouldn’t have even known this was a thing if not for this topic?
Good job stirring the pot.
Where do i get my pitchfork?


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/22 02:36:17


Post by: nels1031


Lets be real, this thread (and the deleted thread in question) is a branch-off of a Ukraine War thread from an offshoot forum of this site. I knew that just by looking at who is posting in it and after a few minutes of reading, confirmed it.

The initial message was(imo) childishly written and condescending. Most damningly, written by an obvious smurf account. If you’ve been on this forum for a decent amount of time, you’ve definitely seen them. Whether it be posting hot takes, false rumors or just plain toxicity. That post looked like Grade-A, pure and unadulterated poop and swoop. You might disagree, but thats how I saw it, and apparently the Mods.

Worst part of that now deleted post = I agreed with it. I feel strongly that it was the wrong tone(see above) and the wrong messenger(also, see above).

It would have been pretty dope if a DakkaDakka poster with extensive history on this site had posted the message. Say if BobtheInquisitor, Mad Doc Grotsnik, Almightywalrus or Disciple of Fate(I see you!) or any other poster in this thread of equal Dakka “renown” had written a similiar, more mature message, signed off by other members of that offshoot forum and implored other community members to sign off, I’d have been with you. I don’t know how any of the posters I just listed feel about me(and won’t lose sleep over how they feel about me )but I generally respect their opinions. Would have been cool to see an attempt at consensus.

Instead of that we got a smurf account who at first glance, looked textbook trollish. We got dudes calling Dakka pro-mysoginistic, creepy and unwelcoming, along with a poster who seemingly hasn’t posted in over a year arguing about moderation. None of that seems conducive to healthy dialogue.

I challenge you folks to craft a message about how that content is not something we want in this community (I specifically hate how its the smut stuff mixed in with pop culture/cartoon stuff, personally). In light of current events and growing diversity in our hobby, it is indeed harmful to the community in my opinion. If its a message that resounds with the majority, we can get that content out perhaps. Others might disagree though and we’d have to either migrate or just tolerate the filth as we have been.

I get paid this friday, I was planning on resubscribing to DCM because I like this forum and wish to support it. I’ll also buy whomever is the author of this message a DCM subscription, if they want it.

If my post feels like an attack, its not intended. Its definitely a written “thrown gauntlet” though. If you feel attacked, feel free to talk smack about me and this post on the other forum in as colorful a language as you want. Apparently one of you thinks you could make a sailor blush, but I was in the Army and now work in the motorcycle industry, you won’t offend me. And I won’t partake. I’m strictly an observer



Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/22 02:47:35


Post by: skyth


For what it's worth, the post wasn't caused by the off-shoot forum, but was being discussed after it happened because it was topical to one of the discussion topics that was already ongoing.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/22 02:59:26


Post by: nels1031


I respectfully disagree :

If I still had a Dakka account I would go and post a link to the 2012 thread into the current promotional thread, with a short summary of it. I may create a new account to do this and get banned immediately…


Regardless, said my part! Good night.




Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/22 03:48:58


Post by: Catulle


 insaniak wrote:
nfe wrote:
Could this be resolved by having a standalone thread posted by an established user discussing what people think are appropriate or inappropriate depictions in miniatures? Is there a subforum you think best fits that?

I think the Ukrainian slave girl model deserves being flagged to people, but I'd also be really interested in that discussion around a lot of inspired-by models and historicals lines.

In theory, this would absolutely be an appropriate topic for Dakka Discussions.

In practice, I fear it would quickly devolve into posters insulting each other for their differing opinions on this particular subject, but it would be worth a shot. It would certainly be useful to have broader opinions from the community on this.



Edit - I will also mention that previous discussions on this sort of thing were a while back now, and attitudes within the gaming community towards women and minorities have been slowly evolving (for the better, IMO) over that time. As such, and seeing the feedback here so far, it's something that I'll be looking to discuss with the mod team and the site's owners to try to establish an appropriate policy moving forwards.


Like whether somebody portraying a prominent Ukrainian politician as a naked, humiliated "slave girl" ought to be the sort of thing you should let slide. As you have in the past before we got to where we are today.

You shouldn't be moderating a damn thing, Insaniak, with all the time you have to spend handwringing over what *really* matters while civilians die in Brother Vinni's designated (and permissible) kicking space.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/22 05:31:18


Post by: Wolfblade


 insaniak wrote:

In practice, I fear it would quickly devolve into posters insulting each other for their differing opinions on this particular subject, but it would be worth a shot. It would certainly be useful to have broader opinions from the community on this.

So, I'm gonna throw out an absolutely insane idea.

Dakka could... you know... moderate a thread for once. Dakka could enforce some civility instead of letting certain users turn it into a gak show per their usual methods.

Also, I want to point out a few very important parts of Rule 1 and further down the page, I have no idea if they were brought up before:

It also should go without saying that swearing, profanity, sexual references, etc, are strictly forbidden, including all images that are posted on or uploaded to our site. Remember that we have users of all ages and that Dakka should be a welcoming place for everyone to enjoy.
Graphic or otherwise inappropriate images (and even links to such images) will be removed on sight
Any inappropriate images (sexual, highly graphic, etc) uploaded to the gallery will be deleted.

Pretty sure "Ukrainian slavegirl" violates these, even if we ignore the implied rape fantasy. Now, unless it's only sexual acts, in which case people should be in the clear to start uploading porn, so long as no deed is being done, yeah? And in the unlikely case that's true, I think the explicit "Ukrainian" part of the "Ukrainian slavegirl" might be unwelcoming to Ukrainians and women in general.

If the rules aren't being enforced, why do they even exist? The rules seem to only be enforced at a moderator's whim.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/22 06:28:28


Post by: Catulle


Because they either don't give a gak for the site's rules, or would rather give space to this rubbish, simple as.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/22 06:54:10


Post by: insaniak


 Wolfblade wrote:

So, I'm gonna throw out an absolutely insane idea.

Dakka could... you know... moderate a thread for once. Dakka could enforce some civility instead of letting certain users turn it into a gak show per their usual methods.

Dakka can, and frequently does. In many cases, however, threads spiral out of control while the mods aren't online, and by the time we get to them they're beyond saving. That's not ideal, but the mods are volunteers with other calls on their time, and we simply can't be permanently online.


Also, I want to point out a few very important parts of Rule 1 and further down the page, I have no idea if they were brought up before:

It also should go without saying that swearing, profanity, sexual references, etc, are strictly forbidden, including all images that are posted on or uploaded to our site. Remember that we have users of all ages and that Dakka should be a welcoming place for everyone to enjoy.
Graphic or otherwise inappropriate images (and even links to such images) will be removed on sight
Any inappropriate images (sexual, highly graphic, etc) uploaded to the gallery will be deleted.

Pretty sure "Ukrainian slavegirl" violates these, even if we ignore the implied rape fantasy. Now, unless it's only sexual acts, in which case people should be in the clear to start uploading porn, so long as no deed is being done, yeah? And in the unlikely case that's true, I think the explicit "Ukrainian" part of the "Ukrainian slavegirl" might be unwelcoming to Ukrainians and women in general.


And, as I said, that's something that will be discussed. Nudity has historically been allowed with appropriate NSFW tags. The issue here is down to where the line is drawn between 'acceptable' nudity and graphic sexual references. And that line will be different for different people.



Catulle wrote:
Because they either don't give a gak for the site's rules, or would rather give space to this rubbish, simple as.

That's not particularly helpful. I've already pointed out that I find the slavegirl miniature, and others like it, distasteful. There are any number of miniatures that I would rather be discussing right now. And if I 'didn't give a gak' about the site, I wouldn't have become a mod in the first place.

I understand that you feel strongly about this issue, and I'd like to work towards a better site for everyone... but the hyperbole and the insults just get in the way of actual constructive discussion.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/22 08:33:16


Post by: Pacific


 Wolfblade wrote:


Again, the issue isn't nudity, but the rape slave fantasy associated with said nudity.
.


This is it exactly. And I'll add that the fact that it relates to a currently ongoing conflict, where this is happening to people right at this moment, and directly and purposefully meant to represent those people, that makes it absolutely unacceptable.

Vinni's thread either needs to carry some sort of warning, or my preference and I think the right thing to do would be he is banned and the thread removed.

Otherwise you are tacitly saying, this sort of thing, this representation of the rape of Ukranian women in war, this is acceptable, this is what we are happy with Dakka being and people coming here and peddling that sort of thing.



Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/22 08:33:35


Post by: Herzlos


 nels1031 wrote:

The initial message was(imo) childishly written and condescending. Most damningly, written by an obvious smurf account. If you’ve been on this forum for a decent amount of time, you’ve definitely seen them. Whether it be posting hot takes, false rumors or just plain toxicity. That post looked like Grade-A, pure and unadulterated poop and swoop. You might disagree, but thats how I saw it, and apparently the Mods.


It could also have been a long term poster who knew that they'd face backlash for mentioning it, as per the quote mentioned.

along with a poster who seemingly hasn’t posted in over a year arguing about moderation. None of that seems conducive to healthy dialogue.


That'd be me?

I largely gave up on Dakka when politics was banned because nothing was being done about the trolling and abuse, though I pop in from time to time to browse. I've only fairly recently got back into gaming so spending more time here but it seems the bad reputation hasn't gone away so I'm not sure how long I'll hang about for.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/22 08:42:57


Post by: nfe


 insaniak wrote:
nfe wrote:
Could this be resolved by having a standalone thread posted by an established user discussing what people think are appropriate or inappropriate depictions in miniatures? Is there a subforum you think best fits that?

I think the Ukrainian slave girl model deserves being flagged to people, but I'd also be really interested in that discussion around a lot of inspired-by models and historicals lines.

In theory, this would absolutely be an appropriate topic for Dakka Discussions.

In practice, I fear it would quickly devolve into posters insulting each other for their differing opinions on this particular subject, but it would be worth a shot. It would certainly be useful to have broader opinions from the community on this.

Edit - I will also mention that previous discussions on this sort of thing were a while back now, and attitudes within the gaming community towards women and minorities have been slowly evolving (for the better, IMO) over that time. As such, and seeing the feedback here so far, it's something that I'll be looking to discuss with the mod team and the site's owners to try to establish an appropriate policy moving forwards.


Ok. I've actually a interest in how welcoming/exclusionary passtimes connected to the past are so it might even be a handy way of getting some general steers on stuff to pursue, aside from it being worthwhile in and of itself. I'll have a think over the holidays about how to frame it.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/22 12:26:03


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


 nels1031 wrote:
It would have been pretty dope if a DakkaDakka poster with extensive history on this site had posted the message. Say if BobtheInquisitor, Mad Doc Grotsnik, Almightywalrus or Disciple of Fate(I see you!) or any other poster in this thread of equal Dakka “renown” had written a similiar, more mature message, signed off by other members of that offshoot forum and implored other community members to sign off, I’d have been with you. I don’t know how any of the posters I just listed feel about me(and won’t lose sleep over how they feel about me )but I generally respect their opinions. Would have been cool to see an attempt at consensus.


I have been summoned. I'd just like to point out that I haven't posted for nearly two years and even then I was more or less only back to post in the ETC setup thread. If a poster not having posted for a year is suspicious, I'd be doubly so and I don't think I'd have posted here if you didn't ask for it. I haven't kept up with 40k since GW decided I needed to rebuild my whole army from scratch to have a chance at winning, so I'm coming at this with a somewhat outdated view of the Dakka community, an axe to grind, and a recently greatly reduced respect for one mod in particular. Please bear that caveat about potential bias in mind.

In my mind there's three points I'd like to touch upon:

My stance on the mini in question is that it doesn't take much effort to go "this was already a very borderline case back in the day; given the fact that Russia is currently in the process of making atrocities like what the mini in question represents reality in Ukraine we have chosen to remove it from Dakka". If I tried selling a brand of SS-themed miniatures and advertised them as "Sonderkommando rape-squad" or the like it'd get immediately Exterminatus'd from low orbit, I don't see how this is any less clear-cut. I understand that it's not reasonable to expect mods to remember every old contentious subject, but once it's been brought to attention again it really shouldn't be all that controversial to go "hm, fair point" rather than accusing the post of being made in bad faith to stir up drama.

This segues nicely into the next point, bad faith. Considering the back-and-forths we've had on the subject over the years and the, in my opinion, reluctance the mods have had in acting on low-effort bad faith posts it's not a good look when a post gets removed for "stirring up drama" when there's evidently some support for the removal of the thread the post highlighted from the Dakka community, including (seemingly, correct me if I'm wrong) at least one mod being willing to consider it.

Thirdly, my immediate reaction was also that Mars is an alt account of someone, but the timing is off for it being someone from the other forum. We'd discussed the mini and Dakkas stance on it and then moved on; this popped up a few weeks later. It would have made more sense for the discussion and the events on Dakka to occur in close proximity to each other rather than strung out like this. Regardless of whether Mars is someone's alt or not, I don't think it's unreasonable for the mods to be sceptical of a fresh account going after an old thread, but in the end there's clearly a bunch of people in the Dakka community that are uncomfortable at best with the continued presence of what is essentially Russian nationalist fetish material on the site. What I am questioning is the judgment of the mods that thought the mini was fine in the first place. World context makes the very existence of the miniature drama; it's designed to deliver a message. As pointed out by Wolfblade above the rules aren't ambiguous on this. It shouldn't have to have taken Russia invading Ukraine for the moderation team as a collective to put down the foot of Mork (or possibly Gork) on this.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/22 15:15:52


Post by: Scrabb






If it comes down to a matter of opinion I am not okay with that mini.



Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/22 15:34:41


Post by: A Town Called Malus


The mini in question is also, somewhat, meant to be a representation of a specific real life person.

Would the mods allow for nude miniatures of a real person, not a character from media or even a specific TV/movie portrayal of a character but an actual person, made without that persons consent to be advertised on dakka, or allow a user to link to the store of the person responsible for those miniatures?


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/22 16:31:33


Post by: Hivefleet Oblivion


One can make miniatures of a person without their consent, just as you can make a portrait of a person without their consent. That's fair use across dozens of legal systems.

But a miniature of a person that can be seen to condone or celebrate rape culture, aimed at a particular person or nationality, an image that is explicitly demeaning like revenge or deepfake porn, is very different.

We are also seeing a new paradigm where being the publisher of a work, and claiming you don't have responsibility for it, is unacceptable.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/22 16:39:01


Post by: A Town Called Malus


 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
One can make miniatures of a person without their consent, just as you can make a portrait of a person without their consent. That's fair use across dozens of legal systems.


Maybe legally, but morally? Especially when the miniatures in question are sexual in nature. We all know there's a difference between someone making a model of an actor in their red carpet dress and making a model of them nude in a doggy style position, even if both might fall under "fair use".


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/22 17:05:14


Post by: Hivefleet Oblivion


 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
One can make miniatures of a person without their consent, just as you can make a portrait of a person without their consent. That's fair use across dozens of legal systems.


Maybe legally, but morally? Especially when the miniatures in question are sexual in nature. We all know there's a difference between someone making a model of an actor in their red carpet dress and making a model of them nude in a doggy style position, even if both might fall under "fair use".


When the imagery is non consensual, obviously meant to be sexually demeaning, as I tried to outline above then, it's not just morally problematic, it's quite possibly legally problematic, too, and dakkadakka is the publisher.

The law is moving in this area across the states, Europe and the UK.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/22 17:08:26


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


I see my name was mentioned.

I haven’t made a “just so you know” post since WGA started working with Dreamforge, and that had all the impact of old man shouting at cloud. The most recent post of that type I’ve seen was in the GSW thread, where a poster reminded everyone they used a Nazi symbol for a texture roller that had nothing to do with the historical context. And that was met with a lot of scoffs.

I just don’t have the energy to post things that will be found counterproductive.

I also haven’t looked in a Brother Vinni thread in years and years.

If I were to post something, it would be along the lines of “For those of you following the Ukraine War and boycotting Russia, be aware that Brother Vinni sells a miniature depicting a former leader of Ukraine as the victim of a sexual war crime.” Something like that.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/22 17:20:20


Post by: ingtaer


For what its worth I am all in favour of removing that mini from here and any like it, including some more of Vinni's offerings. Whilst the political climate was very different when the mini was made (a decade ago, before I was even on the site) i still think it is beyond crass and repugnant.

I am not in favour of a blanket ban or yet targeted ban on companies/individuals due to their products (bar the likes of Mandaulbaum who is an outright con man or others of similar ilk) though. If we decide that dakka doesn't want to play host to that kind of thing period, does that mean we get rid of all nude models? All fetishist models (what of Kingdom |Death)? What about 'Male Gaze' style of mini (personally I find alot of CB's female models quite distasteful for needlessly having their arses stuck out)? What of GW making their then current PM into a blood thirsty monster? Or Hasselfree's political sculpts?

It is certainly a discussion that needs to happen seemingly and I would value people's input as to where they see the line but for a large part it is not a cut and dried answer.

To touch on this as well;
"Thirdly, my immediate reaction was also that Mars is an alt account of someone, but the timing is off for it being someone from the other forum. We'd discussed the mini and Dakkas stance on it and then moved on; this popped up a few weeks later. It would have made more sense for the discussion and the events on Dakka to occur in close proximity to each other rather than strung out like this. Regardless of whether Mars is someone's alt or not, I don't think it's unreasonable for the mods to be sceptical of a fresh account going after an old thread..."

The poster is an alt account of a previously banned poster, they post from the same region, using a country specific VPN, using the same language, syntax and grammar, right down to the same spelling mistakes, line breaks and carriage returns. We do not allow people to multi account here and if a previously banned user wants to ask permission to return then they can do so through the proper channels (ie. send an email to webmaster@dakkadakka.com).


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/22 21:32:04


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


All the same, regarding whether or not it's an alt account, how many posts is someone suppose to have before they're allowed to call out stuff? A hundred? A thousand?

Surely what matters is what's being called out, not who called it? Or, at the very least, the mods could, yanno, moderate openly.

I've seen it said that the mods who sanction users who break the rules, but if we aren't seeing it, and the repercussions for their behaviour aren't being shown, I'd argue that it isn't enough. We ought to see the effects and consequences of breaking the rules, or of ad hominem behaviours, or of inflammatory behaviour. Otherwise, how do we know the rules are being actually enforced, because it sure don't feel like it.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/22 21:38:01


Post by: Wolfblade


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
All the same, regarding whether or not it's an alt account, how many posts is someone suppose to have before they're allowed to call out stuff? A hundred? A thousand?

Surely what matters is what's being called out, not who called it? Or, at the very least, the mods could, yanno, moderate openly.

I've seen it said that the mods who sanction users who break the rules, but if we aren't seeing it, and the repercussions for their behaviour aren't being shown, I'd argue that it isn't enough. We ought to see the effects and consequences of breaking the rules, or of ad hominem behaviours, or of inflammatory behaviour. Otherwise, how do we know the rules are being actually enforced, because it sure don't feel like it.


That's because dakka mod action is always taking the easiest path forward, as insaniak so kindly stated in different terms. "What creates the least amount of problems," or something similar. This means not reprimanding users who are endlessly inflammatory or toxic, drag topics off-topic tog et them shut down, and so on. It's easier to delete and ban the post calling vinni out than it is to deal with vinni. It's easier to ban Female Space Marines than it is to deal with the people throwing fits over it "not being canon." It's easier to ban politics than for them to actually moderate it. And I'd agree with this, except it then gets taken to stupid levels. Someone makes a thread posting support for everyone in Ukraine who was affected by the war? donkey-caves come in and make it "political" causing it to be shut down. Sexual images/nudity posted on the website? Easier to pretend it doesn't violate the rules than to make distinctions between them. Eldar rape diorama? Easier to ignore it than face backlash from neckbeards who love it.

And I mean, frankly, if so many mods seem to be against vinni's models, why has nothing been done? All of this just seems like a public performance in an attempt to placate people so they can continue to take the easy path forward. It's no wonder dakka has gotten the bad rep it does really.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/22 21:55:34


Post by: insaniak


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
All the same, regarding whether or not it's an alt account, how many posts is someone suppose to have before they're allowed to call out stuff? A hundred? A thousand?.

It's not just about post count. The post that was removed was not written in a way that made it seem like it was an honest attempt to communicate useful information. The way it was written read like a deliberate attempt to stir up drama. And the fact that it was written by a suspended user using an alt account means it likely would have been removed and the account banned regardless.

An honest attempt to say 'Hey, Vinni made this mini a decade ago, is the community ok with that?' from an existing user would have been fine regardless of post count.


 Wolfblade wrote:

And I mean, frankly, if so many mods seem to be against vinni's models, why has nothing been done?.

The mod team a decade ago was largely made up of different people to the team right now. And nothing's been done in the interim simply because the model wasn't on anyone's radar until it was dredged up just now.

As such, as I said, we're open to discussing a change to the existing policy regarding these sorts of models. That will likely go much more smoothly if you stop treating us like we're being deliberately offensive.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/22 22:07:16


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


 insaniak wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
All the same, regarding whether or not it's an alt account, how many posts is someone suppose to have before they're allowed to call out stuff? A hundred? A thousand?.

It's not just about post count. The post that was removed was not written in a way that made it seem like it was an honest attempt to communicate useful information. The way it was written read like a deliberate attempt to stir up drama. And the fact that it was written by a suspended user using an alt account means it likely would have been removed and the account banned regardless.

An honest attempt to say 'Hey, Vinni made this mini a decade ago, is the community ok with that?' from an existing user would have been fine regardless of post count.
I do notice the rest of my post wasn't addressed.

Also, not "just" about post count? So the post count does matter?
Plus, as mentioned, is that mini itself not "stirring up drama"? Since when was calling out inflammatory content the issue? I understand that there's polite way to call attention to infractions and problematic content, but the solution isn't to ignore the problematic stuff just because it wasn't done properly. What surely should be done is that the improper poster AND the problematic content should be removed, not just the poster.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/22 22:15:25


Post by: Theophony


Take a break from bashing the MODS. There are far too few of them to keep up with everything and it’s an unpaid job. At least it was when I was asked years ago.

Dakkadakka, just like every other forum I have ever been on will always have people of differing opinions, it’s what makes a community a community. Alternate opinions and everyone being able to express themselves is important.

That being said, there are some thoughts and expressions that cannot be tolerated by a group or culture. While a model may have been acceptable in the past, current events can trigger strong emotions today or in the future. The MODs previously decided that some leeway was allowed in the thread, it seems that perhaps it’s time to revisit that decision. Snap decisions are not always the best, so let them revisit the topic and decide if it is time to remove or keep the thread active. Being it’s a holiday season and I’m sure they have other life events going on, it probably won’t be before the end of the year.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/22 22:18:41


Post by: Azreal13


Also, not "just" about post count? So the post count does matter?


Of course it does, an account posting inflammatory content on single figure posts is going to attract an awful lot closer examination of motive than say your or I would.

Where it doesn't matter is if an honest point is sincerely raised, which, while I didn't see it, it appears this wasn't.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/22 22:29:52


Post by: insaniak


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I do notice the rest of my post wasn't addressed.

I'm not really sure what you expect. We largely keep moderation private for a bunch of reasons, and that's unlikely to change.


Also, not "just" about post count? So the post count does matter?

Any brand new account that seemingly signed up just to comment in a manufacturer's news thread with a link to a different thread from a decade previous is likely to be met with some suspicion as to their actual motives, yes.


Plus, as mentioned, is that mini itself not "stirring up drama"? Since when was calling out inflammatory content the issue? I understand that there's polite way to call attention to infractions and problematic content, but the solution isn't to ignore the problematic stuff just because it wasn't done properly. What surely should be done is that the improper poster AND the problematic content should be removed, not just the poster.

We're not ignoring the problematic stuff. If we were, this thread would have been locked or deleted after the first couple of posts.

For what it's worth, I have deleted the Ukranian slavegirl thread, and the mods are discussing how to deal with the rest of Vinni's output and other similar ranges.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/22 22:35:46


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


Theophony wrote:Take a break from bashing the MODS. There are far too few of them to keep up with everything and it’s an unpaid job. At least it was when I was asked years ago.

Dakkadakka, just like every other forum I have ever been on will always have people of differing opinions, it’s what makes a community a community. Alternate opinions and everyone being able to express themselves is important.
Yes, and that's why Rule 1 exists, so that everyone CAN express themselves without devolving into misgendering, name-calling, misogynist behaviour, flame-baiting, and so on.

Oh, wait - those happen anyway, and the mods aren't seen to do enough. I'm sorry, but if the mods aren't able to manage their own site, then they need new mods, or they need to take a harder stance on those rules. Or, just get rid of Rule 1.

Considering that the mods can track IP addresses well enough to the point they could ascertain that the user aforementioned was a previously banned poster, and that most infractions come from repeat offenders getting away with the same material, I think that they could easily take a harder stance.

Remember, a community CAN come from difference in opinion (plenty of communities are just fine with shared opinions, and oftentimes are more stable for it), but not all opinions should be heard - especially if those opinions break the community, and the rules set in place for that community.

Sorry, but if you're telling me the mods are overworked, then they need more moderators, or they need to review their own abilities to enforce their own rules. If they can't enforce their own rules, then what point are mods?

Azreal13 wrote:
Also, not "just" about post count? So the post count does matter?


Of course it does, an account posting inflammatory content on single figure posts is going to attract an awful lot closer examination of motive than say your or I would.

Where it doesn't matter is if an honest point is sincerely raised, which, while I didn't see it, it appears this wasn't.
But, when the "inflammatory content" is highlight awareness of other breaches of inflammatory content, isn't the solution to remove both, and not just one?


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/22 22:37:40


Post by: Azreal13


I don't care, I was answering your point about post count.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/22 22:38:42


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


 insaniak wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
I do notice the rest of my post wasn't addressed.

I'm not really sure what you expect. We largely keep moderation private for a bunch of reasons, and that's unlikely to change.
So what sort of solution/resolution is in place then for the issues raised with not seeing adequate results for user reprimanding? Or is this not going to be addressed?


Also, not "just" about post count? So the post count does matter?

Any brand new account that seemingly signed up just to comment in a manufacturer's news thread with a link to a different thread from a decade previous is likely to be met with some suspicion as to their actual motives, yes.
Even if they actually highlight a relevant issue?


We're not ignoring the problematic stuff. If we were, this thread would have been locked or deleted after the first couple of posts.

For what it's worth, I have deleted the Ukranian slavegirl thread, and the mods are discussing how to deal with the rest of Vinni's output and other similar ranges.
Eventually, yes. After rather a lot of posts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Azreal13 wrote:
I don't care, I was answering your point about post count.
And my point about post count is related to what that poster finds.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/22 22:46:05


Post by: Azreal13


A troll account with ill intent isn't going to build up a few hundred posts, and if they do then they should be applauded for their dedication.

There's a right and wrong way to raise a discussion about what is acceptable content on the forum, just as there is in life. I'm willing to accept that the mod team took action on a post that the evidence suggested was a disingenuous attempt to stir drama rather than a sincere attempt to open up what is a much broader topic.

That it has done both is probably the best possible outcome, but apparently people are more intent on bashing the mod team for not doing things the way they want than actually engaging on the actually important issue that was raised.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/22 22:46:20


Post by: insaniak


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
So what sort of solution/resolution is in place then for the issues raised with not seeing adequate results for user reprimanding? Or is this not going to be addressed?

I'm not sure it's particularly relevant to this thread. Or are we just turning this discussion into a general 'bash the mods' thread now?



Even if they actually highlight a relevant issue?


We're not ignoring the problematic stuff. If we were, this thread would have been locked or deleted after the first couple of posts.

For what it's worth, I have deleted the Ukranian slavegirl thread, and the mods are discussing how to deal with the rest of Vinni's output and other similar ranges.
Eventually, yes. After rather a lot of posts..

Yes, change generally requires discussion.

That discussion would likely have gone more smoothly if it had been approached in an honest and civil fashion, rather than a bunch of people with an axe to grind insulting the mod team and demanding to get their way.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/22 23:11:23


Post by: Sgt_Smudge


Azreal13 wrote:A troll account with ill intent isn't going to build up a few hundred posts, and if they do then they should be applauded for their dedication.

There's a right and wrong way to raise a discussion about what is acceptable content on the forum, just as there is in life. I'm willing to accept that the mod team took action on a post that the evidence suggested was a disingenuous attempt to stir drama rather than a sincere attempt to open up what is a much broader topic.
I absolutely agree that there's a right and a wrong way, as I said. However, regardless of what way is used, isn't the more relevant thing WHAT they flagged, and not how? That was the gist of my post.

insaniak wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
So what sort of solution/resolution is in place then for the issues raised with not seeing adequate results for user reprimanding? Or is this not going to be addressed?

I'm not sure it's particularly relevant to this thread. Or are we just turning this discussion into a general 'bash the mods' thread now?
If I made a thread on that, would it be an issue?

We're not ignoring the problematic stuff. If we were, this thread would have been locked or deleted after the first couple of posts.

For what it's worth, I have deleted the Ukranian slavegirl thread, and the mods are discussing how to deal with the rest of Vinni's output and other similar ranges.
Eventually, yes. After rather a lot of posts..

Yes, change generally requires discussion.
More discussion than I would have thought necessary, over that matter. I thought it wouldn't take that long.

That discussion would likely have gone more smoothly if it had been approached in an honest and civil fashion, rather than a bunch of people with an axe to grind insulting the mod team and demanding to get their way.
Not sure where I, at the very least, "demanded" or "insulted" the mods team. Is stating concerns an insult now?

I'm sorry, but not all comments here have been insulting the mods, and raising concerns isn't "demanding their way" any more so than asking the rules to be followed is.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/22 23:18:49


Post by: Azreal13


 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Azreal13 wrote:A troll account with ill intent isn't going to build up a few hundred posts, and if they do then they should be applauded for their dedication.

There's a right and wrong way to raise a discussion about what is acceptable content on the forum, just as there is in life. I'm willing to accept that the mod team took action on a post that the evidence suggested was a disingenuous attempt to stir drama rather than a sincere attempt to open up what is a much broader topic.
I absolutely agree that there's a right and a wrong way, as I said. However, regardless of what way is used, isn't the more relevant thing WHAT they flagged, and not how? That was the gist of my post.



Not when the question is to whether any action needs to be taken against the poster. Which is a separate question as to whether the thing they're commenting on needs revisiting. The two shouldn't be conflated.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/22 23:26:39


Post by: Herzlos


 insaniak wrote:
 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
So what sort of solution/resolution is in place then for the issues raised with not seeing adequate results for user reprimanding? Or is this not going to be addressed?

I'm not sure it's particularly relevant to this thread. Or are we just turning this discussion into a general 'bash the mods' thread now?



Even if they actually highlight a relevant issue?


We're not ignoring the problematic stuff. If we were, this thread would have been locked or deleted after the first couple of posts.

For what it's worth, I have deleted the Ukranian slavegirl thread, and the mods are discussing how to deal with the rest of Vinni's output and other similar ranges.
Eventually, yes. After rather a lot of posts..

Yes, change generally requires discussion.

That discussion would likely have gone more smoothly if it had been approached in an honest and civil fashion, rather than a bunch of people with an axe to grind insulting the mod team and demanding to get their way.


You were very dismissive about the concerns at the start. It took 4 days and a 2nd poster to even get a response and that was "It was removed as it was off topic for a news and rumours thread, and was a blatant attempt to stir up drama.".

You had to be pestered into actually addressing the issue, though I'll accept that we're more or less there now.

I get that it feels like the mods are being needlessly bashed here, but look at it from the users perspective - from the outside it seems very obscure and draconian.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/23 00:27:16


Post by: insaniak


Herzlos wrote:
You were very dismissive about the concerns at the start. It took 4 days and a 2nd poster to even get a response and that was "It was removed as it was off topic for a news and rumours thread, and was a blatant attempt to stir up drama.".

My initial response was specifically addressing the reason for the removal of a gakpost by a sockpuppet account. It took four days because I generally only check N&B every few days, unless there's a thread in there that I'm specifically following, and the rest of the mod team is thin on the ground at the best of times right now*, and it's Christmas.


You had to be pestered into actually addressing the issue, though I'll accept that we're more or less there now.

When it was questioned, I explained the current policy, and was met with accusations of nefarious intentions. So yes, I quite probably could have handled it better... but I feel that the entire discussion would have gone better if it had been raised with a polite 'Hey, is this sort of content really ok in this day and age?' rather than taking it as an opportunity to dogpile on the mods and the site.


*Edit - and yes, 'hire more mods' would be an ideal solution there. Candidates are currently sparse, and the last couple of people we have offered the position to have (not entirely surprisingly) turned it down. So we're left doing the best we can with the few bodies we have.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/23 08:23:45


Post by: A Town Called Malus


You think it was a gak post, many who have commented here disagree with that evaluation.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/23 10:25:04


Post by: Herzlos


 insaniak wrote:

*Edit - and yes, 'hire more mods' would be an ideal solution there. Candidates are currently sparse, and the last couple of people we have offered the position to have (not entirely surprisingly) turned it down. So we're left doing the best we can with the few bodies we have.


Which leads to the obvious question of why people are turning it down and why isn't that surprising. I thought that most enthusiast forums would have plenty of long timey posters who'd be happy to pitch in with moderating assuming that the site and moderation wasn't toxic.

I'm certainly not a candidate for moderation, but I think addressing the root cause may be a bit of work but might make life a lot easier for all you in the long run.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2022/12/23 11:27:45


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


Most people, myself included, do not have the patience to be mods. Not all those that want to be mods ought to be. It's a thankless job.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/01/12 14:06:27


Post by: Wolfblade


 insaniak wrote:


For what it's worth, I have deleted the Ukranian slavegirl thread, and the mods are discussing how to deal with the rest of Vinni's output and other similar ranges.


So, I feel like I've given dakka the benefit of the doubt long enough for this to be resolved internally, but has anything actually changed? It's been about 3 weeks since this post saying you deleted it and are "discussing" how to deal with it. Honestly though, given dakka's moderation history, this just feels exactly like doing the easiest thing again. Whether or not you intend it to come off this way, it once again feels like the issue is being swept under a rug with the evidence deleted to protect vinni's current range and to make it harder to inform people of who they're buying from.

What's the conclusion? What's the outcome? Something must have been discussed or talked about during those three weeks.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/01/12 14:51:49


Post by: ingtaer


Wolfblade, the discussion is ongoing. Unfortunately due to the holidays and life commitments of all involved it is taking longer than is ideal but we have a pretty solid basis of understanding formed between the moderators and owners and hope to get a finalised revision to the rules out soon. Part of this will be a toughening on Dakka's hosting of questionable material.

As far as this pertains to Vinni himself, we will probably not be allowing his more NSFW material (and this goes for companies in similar vein) but we are not going to boot him from the site over a decade old miniature. He himself fled Russia around eight years ago and since then we have seen no evidence to support justification for his removal, bar this one reprehensible miniature from 2012.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/01/12 15:14:15


Post by: Wolfblade


 ingtaer wrote:
Wolfblade, the discussion is ongoing. Unfortunately due to the holidays and life commitments of all involved it is taking longer than is ideal but we have a pretty solid basis of understanding formed between the moderators and owners and hope to get a finalised revision to the rules out soon. Part of this will be a toughening on Dakka's hosting of questionable material.

As far as this pertains to Vinni himself, we will probably not be allowing his more NSFW material (and this goes for companies in similar vein) but we are not going to boot him from the site over a decade old miniature. He himself fled Russia around eight years ago and since then we have seen no evidence to support justification for his removal, bar this one reprehensible miniature from 2012.


Did any mod actually look through vinni's thread? There's a LOT of rape slave stuff.

Plus, that mini is still being sold to day so...

EDIT: Unsure how to copy the link to the posts, so I'll just quote them like this.

Not-April being bound up and exposed has obvious sexual and non-consensual implications.


Naked bound slave, don't think I need to say more.


Again, another naked slavegirl.


Similar to the second one I quoted here.

Before anyone accuses me of digging through the history of their thread, I went back one page. The issue is not "one bad model from 2012." That's just the most blatant.




Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/01/12 15:42:02


Post by: ingtaer


 ingtaer wrote:
we will probably not be allowing his more NSFW material (and this goes for companies in similar vein)


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/01/12 15:55:18


Post by: Wolfblade


 ingtaer wrote:
 ingtaer wrote:
we will probably not be allowing his more NSFW material (and this goes for companies in similar vein)


I think you missed my point. My point is that this isn't an issue about one model from 2012 as I said. This is not really about one atrocious model from over 10 years ago. It's a consistent posting of very sexual and offensive models. It isn't the nudity that's the issue for most of us I believe, it's how the nudity is used.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/01/12 16:28:57


Post by: ingtaer


Which is why we are looking at banning such content.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/01/12 23:49:42


Post by: insaniak


 Wolfblade wrote:
Whether or not you intend it to come off this way, it once again feels like the issue is being swept under a rug with the evidence deleted to protect vinni's current range and to make it harder to inform people of who they're buying from.

So to be clear - do you want Vinni removed from the site, or do you want people to be able to see what sort of company they are buying from? Because those two goals would seem to be mutually exclusive.


What's the conclusion? What's the outcome? Something must have been discussed or talked about during those three weeks.

Those three weeks were over the Christmas period, when a lot of the mod team is not particularly active. If you want an approach that isn't just the 'easiest choice' then you need to allow for some time to actually look at the ramifications of any given decision.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/01/13 01:04:39


Post by: Wolfblade


 insaniak wrote:
 Wolfblade wrote:
Whether or not you intend it to come off this way, it once again feels like the issue is being swept under a rug with the evidence deleted to protect vinni's current range and to make it harder to inform people of who they're buying from.

So to be clear - do you want Vinni removed from the site, or do you want people to be able to see what sort of company they are buying from? Because those two goals would seem to be mutually exclusive.


Personally, I don't think they should be allowed to advertise their store on the site. Regardless of whether their rape slave models are posted here or not, you go to their website and you very obviously see them, and I don't think that's something dakka should support or allow. However, it does feel a little dishonest to paint it as if I (and others) will only accept those solutions.

 insaniak wrote:

What's the conclusion? What's the outcome? Something must have been discussed or talked about during those three weeks.

Those three weeks were over the Christmas period, when a lot of the mod team is not particularly active. If you want an approach that isn't just the 'easiest choice' then you need to allow for some time to actually look at the ramifications of any given decision.


To be fair, it's been 3 weeks since the quoted post, nearly 4 from the OP. Maybe I wasn't clear, I was hoping for an update, some kind of communication that dakka tends not to do with anyone outside of the mod circle. Things get deleted or removed or banned or whatever and there's rarely a chance for any sort of community input or understanding on the decision or discussion.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/01/13 01:19:25


Post by: insaniak


 Wolfblade wrote:
Personally, I don't think they should be allowed to advertise their store on the site. Regardless of whether their rape slave models are posted here or not, you go to their website and you very obviously see them, and I don't think that's something dakka should support or allow. However, it does feel a little dishonest to paint it as if I (and others) will only accept those solutions.

You've been fairly vocal on the idea that you'll only accept the solution you deem correct. I'm just trying to establish how that solution is intended to work. How does not allowing Vinni to advertise on the site make it easier to inform people what sort of miniatures he produces?

To be clear - There is certainly a valid argument for not allowing him to share his wares here on the basis that he makes some awful stuff. I'm just confused about the inherent contradiction in what you're asking for. Scrubbing something from the site doesn't improve awareness of it.


To be fair, it's been 3 weeks since the quoted post, nearly 4 from the OP. Maybe I wasn't clear, I was hoping for an update, some kind of communication that dakka tends not to do with anyone outside of the mod circle. Things get deleted or removed or banned or whatever and there's rarely a chance for any sort of community input or understanding on the decision or discussion.

The update is that we're working on it, and due to the time of year and other demands on the time of the volunteers who make up the moderating team, that discussion is not a quick process. We are discussing policy and site rules changes, and these will be implemented once the kinks are worked out.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/01/13 02:45:58


Post by: Wolfblade


 insaniak wrote:
 Wolfblade wrote:
Personally, I don't think they should be allowed to advertise their store on the site. Regardless of whether their rape slave models are posted here or not, you go to their website and you very obviously see them, and I don't think that's something dakka should support or allow. However, it does feel a little dishonest to paint it as if I (and others) will only accept those solutions.

You've been fairly vocal on the idea that you'll only accept the solution you deem correct. I'm just trying to establish how that solution is intended to work. How does not allowing Vinni to advertise on the site make it easier to inform people what sort of miniatures he produces?

To be clear - There is certainly a valid argument for not allowing him to share his wares here on the basis that he makes some awful stuff. I'm just confused about the inherent contradiction in what you're asking for. Scrubbing something from the site doesn't improve awareness of it.


As I said, either is fine by me personally. Don't take my dislike of the mods deleting a post designed to inform people of who they were buying from while leaving the entirety of the content up. Also, I think you're boiling the "solutions" down to "do nothing" and "do something." I do not think vinni's type of content is acceptable here, and I don't think an acceptable response is the equivalent of a shoulder shrug based on the site's rules.

To be fair, it's been 3 weeks since the quoted post, nearly 4 from the OP. Maybe I wasn't clear, I was hoping for an update, some kind of communication that dakka tends not to do with anyone outside of the mod circle. Things get deleted or removed or banned or whatever and there's rarely a chance for any sort of community input or understanding on the decision or discussion.

The update is that we're working on it, and due to the time of year and other demands on the time of the volunteers who make up the moderating team, that discussion is not a quick process. We are discussing policy and site rules changes, and these will be implemented once the kinks are worked out.


And I never disagreed or said you weren't.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/01/13 22:34:06


Post by: Aecus Decimus


 ingtaer wrote:
I am not in favour of a blanket ban or yet targeted ban on companies/individuals due to their products (bar the likes of Mandaulbaum who is an outright con man or others of similar ilk) though. If we decide that dakka doesn't want to play host to that kind of thing period, does that mean we get rid of all nude models? All fetishist models (what of Kingdom |Death)? What about 'Male Gaze' style of mini (personally I find alot of CB's female models quite distasteful for needlessly having their arses stuck out)? What of GW making their then current PM into a blood thirsty monster? Or Hasselfree's political sculpts?


IMO the standard should be something like "what would you see in an art museum":

Non-sexual nude miniatures are just following in the long tradition of artistic nude paintings and sculptures, they can stay. They should have a mandatory NSFW warning for obvious reasons but I don't see anything wrong with a 28mm version of a sculpture you can find in every art museum.

Blatant rape fetish stuff of questionable artistic merit that is made for the sole purpose of the sculptor getting off to it? Hell no. They aren't even good sculpts, the appeal is 100% pornography and shock value and if someone tried to put them on the table at your local store it would (or at least should!) raise some major questions about their intentions and understanding of boundaries. So no, they don't need to be advertised on a site that bans profanity because it isn't suitable for all ages.

Kingdom Death is probably ok IMO, they have sex and nudity but from what I've seen it's primarily meant to be disturbing, not erotic. It's horror, not some creepy dude in his parents basement posting his sexual fantasies, and the sculpts are good enough to have artistic merit. You might not take your kids to that wing of the museum but I could definitely see it being an exhibit. Again, mandatory NSFW though.

The Infinity pinup stuff isn't a great look for the hobby IMO but it's not so egregiously inappropriate that it needs to be banned. It might appear in the museum, but with a sign explaining the cultural context and how it's problematic. It should be allowed, but so should criticism of the models and the company that makes them.

Political models are the same as the pinup stuff. Politics is reality and there's nothing about those miniatures that is any worse than the political cartoons published in your local newspaper. The only issue is dakka's (IMO inappropriate) ban on political discussion and how it creates an awkward double standard where you can post a political message as long as you sculpt a miniature to say it but expressing the same political opinion in text form puts you at risk of getting banned, as does posting disagreement with the political message made by the miniatures. They should be allowed, but so should political discussion.



Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/01/16 09:09:34


Post by: Rolsheen


Ban this, Ban that, Ban them, who gets to decide which companies should be banned from advertising? Should it be only certain models from a company or a blanket ban if some one doesn't like one model. I mean it's starting to sound like a crusade against freedom of expression, next we'll be banning products from entire countries because we don't like their policies.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/01/16 09:30:46


Post by: Overread


 Rolsheen wrote:
who gets to decide which companies should be banned from advertising?


The forum owner gets the final say.

Community and moderator members can pitch arguments for and against.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/01/16 10:17:19


Post by: Aecus Decimus


 Rolsheen wrote:
Ban this, Ban that, Ban them, who gets to decide which companies should be banned from advertising? Should it be only certain models from a company or a blanket ban if some one doesn't like one model. I mean it's starting to sound like a crusade against freedom of expression, next we'll be banning products from entire countries because we don't like their policies.


This forum already bans the word because it's "not appropriate for all ages". Freedom of expression doesn't exist on a private forum and banning rape fetish models whose sole appeal is pornography and/shock value, not artistic merit, is entirely in line with the goal of having a forum that is not adults-only.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/01/16 11:05:56


Post by: Dysartes


 Rolsheen wrote:
I mean it's starting to sound like a crusade against freedom of expression, next we'll be banning products from entire countries because we don't like their policies.

Just to be clear, Rolsheen - you're advocating that rape fetish sculpts should be permitted on Dakka, even if they're sculpts of an identifiable individual?


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/01/16 14:21:21


Post by: Herzlos


I don't think Vinni and store needs an outright ban - his not creepy work is spectacular and I'd be all for that being here and showcased.

I don't think we want to go as far as policing external sites, assuming the site is predominantly suitable minis and the only stuff on here is suitable i.e. there's a legitimate interest for them being on here.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Aecus Decimus wrote:

IMO the standard should be something like "what would you see in an art museum":


I think art museum is generally a high bar, though it depends entirely on the exhibit. I've seen some pretty NSFW stuff in museums for exhibits like Robert Maplethorpe, or some Anime stuff.

Maybe "would you put it in a display case if you had friends/family visiting?" or "would you bring it out on an open gaming night somewhere?"


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/01/16 22:28:58


Post by: Aecus Decimus


Herzlos wrote:
I think art museum is generally a high bar, though it depends entirely on the exhibit. I've seen some pretty NSFW stuff in museums for exhibits like Robert Maplethorpe, or some Anime stuff.

Maybe "would you put it in a display case if you had friends/family visiting?" or "would you bring it out on an open gaming night somewhere?"


Sure. It's the general principle that's important, not the specifics of exactly which venue is the standard. I picked an art museum because it's a place where there's clear precedent for some level of nudity being accepted, and even a degree of provocative sex and nudity when it's making an artistic statement, but not blatant pornography or some 14 year old giggling about how the default human model in their digital sculpting software doesn't start with any clothes. But some variety of "would you display this in public" probably gets to the same end result.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/01/18 22:46:40


Post by: Herzlos


Also, can we get some statement from the mods when a decision is made and what that decision is going forward? It feels like this is just hanging waiting for something to happen.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/01/23 01:54:06


Post by: Manfred von Drakken


What about moving potentially objectionable content into its own forum? An 'adults-only' area?

I'm frequently unimpressed with Vinni's work, particularly his unnecessary nudity and obvious IP violations, but there IS a following for it. I say move it elsewhere out of News and Rumors, and make people go look specifically for it.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/03 23:46:21


Post by: Wolfblade


 insaniak wrote:

The update is that we're working on it, and due to the time of year and other demands on the time of the volunteers who make up the moderating team, that discussion is not a quick process. We are discussing policy and site rules changes, and these will be implemented once the kinks are worked out.


So, it's been another 3 weeks, any update on changes to rules regarding rape fantasy models/nudity models in general/models based on real people?


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/04 17:00:02


Post by: Manfred von Drakken


 Wolfblade wrote:
 insaniak wrote:

The update is that we're working on it, and due to the time of year and other demands on the time of the volunteers who make up the moderating team, that discussion is not a quick process. We are discussing policy and site rules changes, and these will be implemented once the kinks are worked out.


So, it's been another 3 weeks, any update on changes to rules regarding rape fantasy models/nudity models in general/models based on real people?


I'm not convinced harassing the mods is a great strategy.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/04 17:41:02


Post by: Wolfblade


 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
 Wolfblade wrote:
 insaniak wrote:

The update is that we're working on it, and due to the time of year and other demands on the time of the volunteers who make up the moderating team, that discussion is not a quick process. We are discussing policy and site rules changes, and these will be implemented once the kinks are worked out.


So, it's been another 3 weeks, any update on changes to rules regarding rape fantasy models/nudity models in general/models based on real people?


I'm not convinced harassing the mods is a great strategy.


I don't think posting once every three weeks comes anywhere near "harassment." If it does, everyone is harassing everyone else nearly on a daily basis.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/04 19:20:47


Post by: Dysartes


 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
 Wolfblade wrote:
 insaniak wrote:

The update is that we're working on it, and due to the time of year and other demands on the time of the volunteers who make up the moderating team, that discussion is not a quick process. We are discussing policy and site rules changes, and these will be implemented once the kinks are worked out.


So, it's been another 3 weeks, any update on changes to rules regarding rape fantasy models/nudity models in general/models based on real people?


I'm not convinced harassing the mods is a great strategy.

I'm not convinced he is harassing the mods - and given we're now in February, you'd hope the "seasonal disruption" had died down enough to allow for some form of progress on the issue, one way or another.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/06 20:25:11


Post by: ingtaer


Okay, thanks for bearing with us. Changing the rules of the forum is not as easy a job as flicking a switch, it involves a lot of thought and discussion on what is best for the site and our user base and that takes time. We still have a few things to work through around disciplinary measures, the automated warning system and an incentive scheme for positive posting habits and they will be rolled out when we have finished grinding out the details.

However we can announce a change to the sites rules around gratuitous nudity and explicit sexual content, to whit the rules will be updated to read the following;


It also should go without saying that swearing, profanity, explicit sexual references, etc, are strictly forbidden, including all images that are posted on or uploaded to our site. Miniature and wargaming-related images including nudity are allowed within certain limits:
- NSFW images shared on the forum must be in Spoiler tags
- NSFW images uploaded to the Dakka Gallery must be tagged as 'NSFW'
- Images containing gratuitous nudity and explicit sexual content, slavery or abuse should not be shared on the forum or uploaded to the Gallery.
- If you see something you think might be inappropriate, please use the Mod Alert button to bring it to our attention. Images thus reported will be assessed and/or removed at the discretion of the Moderation team.


As such, several threads have been retired from the forums and their owners contacted.

If you have any questions please post them here or PM a mod.

Many thanks for your patience and happy wargaming,

Regards,
ingtær on behalf of the Modquisition.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/07 01:29:25


Post by: Snrub


 ingtaer wrote:
As such, several threads have been retired from the forums and their owners contacted.
Could we please have a list of threads that have been retired? I ask this because it would be useful to know what threads are gone in case you were waiting for updates or new releases from said threads. No good waiting for a thread that doesn't exist any more.


Furthermore, has Brother Vinni's presence been purged from the site completely, or is he allowed to make a new thread for non-sexually explicit stuff (of which he has quite a lot)?


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/07 06:12:06


Post by: Rolsheen


Deleted Manufaktura's thread?


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/07 11:20:25


Post by: ingtaer


Manufaktura and Vinni's threads are the only two from N&R so far.

And yes, Vinni's SFW is allowed to be posted here.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/07 13:51:36


Post by: Rolsheen


Well, that's disappointing. It's a shame to see another forum roll over faster than dog wanting belly rubs in the face of a minority of users who need to wake up


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/07 14:28:35


Post by: Wolfblade


 Rolsheen wrote:
Well, that's disappointing. It's a shame to see another forum roll over faster than dog wanting belly rubs in the face of a minority of users who need to wake up


You're kidding right? Dakka literally let it fly for at least a decade, but now that they're taking even the most basic stance of "don't support or allow rape content or content that degrades people based on their gender" you're up in arms?

 ingtaer wrote:


- Images containing gratuitous nudity and explicit sexual content, slavery or abuse should not be shared on the forum or uploaded to the Gallery.



Also, it might just be a word thing, but I think this should be "shall not" instead of "should not.." Should not implies "please don't do it," shall not implies "you will not do it."


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/07 14:59:24


Post by: Aecus Decimus


 Rolsheen wrote:
Well, that's disappointing. It's a shame to see another forum roll over faster than dog wanting belly rubs in the face of a minority of users who need to wake up


WAKE UP SHEEPLE WE NEED RAPE FETISH PORN ON A FAMILY-FRIENDLY FORUM OR YOUR A DOG!!!!!


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/07 16:32:01


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


This is a forum that feels it necessary to have a swear filter. If someone can’t post “donkey-cave” because Please Think Of The Children, then I find it kind of weird to let them post “That’s totally consensual based on context not present in the image, I swear” fetish images. Granted, we allow Kingdom Death stuff, which is all that and more, but that’s for a game, clearly labeled, not a silent endorsement, and closer to Maplethorpe style art rather than Hustler style titillation.

(I’m honestly surprised they deleted those threads instead of moving them to a new DCM-like sub forum with an age restriction.)


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/07 16:51:34


Post by: Overread


Sometimes swear filters aren't just "about the children" but about helping to achieve a certain level of discourse and style of posting.

Ergo one that doesn't have people slinging swearwords at each other every other post in insults and such.

It's the same reason many places that have no children at all will have social rules or stigma that make it impolite or such to swear. Most of us I'd wager wouldn't go to a restaurant or a library and spend the day swearing.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/07 17:15:53


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


Keeping Dakka safe for children was the explicit reason given for the swear filter.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/07 20:58:27


Post by: Wolfblade


Weird how that is totally at odds with allowing NSFW at all then.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/08 02:03:08


Post by: Manfred von Drakken


 Wolfblade wrote:
 Rolsheen wrote:
Well, that's disappointing. It's a shame to see another forum roll over faster than dog wanting belly rubs in the face of a minority of users who need to wake up


You're kidding right? Dakka literally let it fly for at least a decade, but now that they're taking even the most basic stance of "don't support or allow rape content or content that degrades people based on their gender" you're up in arms?


No, it really was a really vocal minority that got them shut down. And Manufaktura did start offering models of both sexes.

I still think this was an overreaction.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/08 15:15:41


Post by: Aecus Decimus


 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
I still think this was an overreaction.


Could you clarify how it's an overreaction to ban rape fetish models (which aren't even very good sculpts) on a family-friendly forum with an extremely strict anti-profanity filter?


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/08 16:43:19


Post by: Dysartes


I'd say the issue is more there was an under-reaction at the time, rather than an overreaction now.

I might suggest that a locked, stickied post in N&R could be an idea, so there's clear visibility of this change in the rules?


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/08 23:00:10


Post by: Manfred von Drakken


Aecus Decimus wrote:
 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
I still think this was an overreaction.


Could you clarify how it's an overreaction to ban rape fetish models (which aren't even very good sculpts) on a family-friendly forum with an extremely strict anti-profanity filter?


For starters, you ARE aware that bondage does not equal rape, right?

As I've stated, I'm no fan of Vinni's work, but the vast majority of it isn't something I would ban. Yes, if he's depicting actual acts of a graphic nature or minis that look to be based on real people, I'd draw the line at those. But in general, I'm far less concerned about naked bits than I am about graphic violence - I still don't understand why people think it's okay to let their 10-year-old play Call of Duty, but so help you if the game has any bad words in it. In short, I think a lot of people's priorities are misplaced.

From a conversation I once had with a customer wanting to buy Grand Theft Auto for their kid:

Me: Are you sure you're okay with this game? It's got strong violence, strong sexual content, strong language...
Customer: Language? I'll just make him turn down the volume.
Me: ...that won't stop him from beating a hooker to death...

So, yes, I think this is an over-reaction. There's clearly a market for naked lady vikings - again, not my cup of tea - and prisoners in various states of undress/bondage, and I wouldn't be afraid of a few nipples.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/10 15:14:52


Post by: Wolfblade


 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Aecus Decimus wrote:
 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
I still think this was an overreaction.


Could you clarify how it's an overreaction to ban rape fetish models (which aren't even very good sculpts) on a family-friendly forum with an extremely strict anti-profanity filter?


For starters, you ARE aware that bondage does not equal rape, right?


When the label is literally "Ukranian slavegirl" your argument falls flat. I don't think anyone has a problem with nudity, it's the rape fantasy/sexual violence that people have a problem with.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/10 17:05:53


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


I feel like the issue here is Manufactura getting wiped out in the crossfire. Vinni’s stuff, using a real person he has a real beef with in a model depicting sexual violence, is a pretty clear crossed line. Manufactura is as ostensibly selling BDSM-themed miniatures displaying ostensibly consensual situations. Not nearly as cut and dried.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/10 18:08:26


Post by: Aecus Decimus


 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I feel like the issue here is Manufactura getting wiped out in the crossfire. Vinni’s stuff, using a real person he has a real beef with in a model depicting sexual violence, is a pretty clear crossed line. Manufactura is as ostensibly selling BDSM-themed miniatures displaying ostensibly consensual situations. Not nearly as cut and dried.


OTOH does BDSM fetish stuff really belong on a forum where you can't say "donkey-cave" because think of the children?


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/10 18:11:39


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


That was the point I made earlier, yes.

Personally, I’d not bother with the swear filter and would keep well-labeled NSFW threads, maybe with links instead of inline pics, but I don’t run the site and don’t have any idea how many actual minors visit here. And I’d not allow anything depicting no consensual acts or real world people as victims.

Dakka chose the more family-friendly route, though.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/10 20:08:07


Post by: insaniak


Aecus Decimus wrote:

OTOH does BDSM fetish stuff really belong on a forum where you can't say "donkey-cave" because think of the children?

To be clear, 'think of the children' is a gross simplification of the reason for keeping the site family-friendly. It's a standard that is intended to also keep the site accessible to those checking in from work or other potentially public places, and also just to keep things at the same sort of standard you would expect in most public social gatherings.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/11 01:46:45


Post by: Manfred von Drakken


 Wolfblade wrote:
 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Aecus Decimus wrote:
 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
I still think this was an overreaction.


Could you clarify how it's an overreaction to ban rape fetish models (which aren't even very good sculpts) on a family-friendly forum with an extremely strict anti-profanity filter?


For starters, you ARE aware that bondage does not equal rape, right?


When the label is literally "Ukranian slavegirl" your argument falls flat. I don't think anyone has a problem with nudity, it's the rape fantasy/sexual violence that people have a problem with.


If you had bothered to quote my whole post, you'd have quoted where I said:

Manfred von Drakken wrote:Yes, if he's depicting actual acts of a graphic nature or minis that look to be based on real people, I'd draw the line at those.


Even GW was selling slave girls for a long time. Or are we supposed to be outraged over ANY model that's depicted as a slave, sexually or otherwise? Where do we draw the line? Skavenslaves? Slave Leia? Conan? Russell Crowe? Audioslave?

And yes, I'm being intentionally hyperbolic to make a point.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/11 04:10:04


Post by: Wolfblade


 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

Even GW was selling slave girls for a long time. Or are we supposed to be outraged over ANY model that's depicted as a slave, sexually or otherwise? Where do we draw the line? Skavenslaves? Slave Leia? Conan? Russell Crowe? Audioslave?

And yes, I'm being intentionally hyperbolic to make a point.


Have you ever considered why GW stopped selling those models? Also, slave Leia is problematic too considering she's in a super revealing outfit, kept on a leash by a crime lord, in a place where a bunch of other slaves are dancing provocatively in similar outfits, so I don't think you thought that through. At all. Even a little bit. Like, not even for a second when you choose that as an example. As for skavenslaves/Conan/etc, they're not the same. It's comparing apples to oranges. I don't think there's any inherent sexualness to the nature of those. As in, that's not their primary draw. Most people aren't picking up a box of skavenslaves and getting titillated over them.

That said, I can see how Conan could be considered the male equivalent of slave Leia except that (AFIAK) Conan was not being sexualized by his captors (correct me if I'm wrong, I have no interest in Conan so I know very little about it). And that's a big difference. Conan is instead taught to fight (among a bunch of other things) and Leia is kept as like, a pet. Conan becomes empowered, Leia is disempowered until right at the end of that part of the movie when she kills Jabba. So I don't think that's really a good comparison.

So, whatever your point is, I don't think you thought it through. I think you're just trying to reach out blindly to justify... something. To me, it comes off like you think everyone is against BDSM, or nudity, or sexuality which isn't the case. Just rape fantasy in this case.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/11 12:56:03


Post by: Manfred von Drakken


 Wolfblade wrote:
Have you ever considered why GW stopped selling those models?


Looking at GW's track record, I'd say it had far more to do with financial and/or production issues than any sense of principle.

I think part of the problem is that we have different ideas of what equates to rape fantasy.

In the specific case of the 'Ukrainian Slave Girl', I think we're agreed that crossed a line; partly due to the timing of the subject matter and partly due to it being based on a real person.

In the case of, say, Manufaktura, I don't see rape fantasy. I see a lot of bondage and humiliation, but nothing they've produced has offended any of my sensibilities.

...thinking a bit more, I'm wondering if it's just that I'm okay with rape fantasy, as long as it stops at fantasy.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/11 17:36:43


Post by: Wolfblade


 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
 Wolfblade wrote:
Have you ever considered why GW stopped selling those models?


Looking at GW's track record, I'd say it had far more to do with financial and/or production issues than any sense of principle.

I think part of the problem is that we have different ideas of what equates to rape fantasy.

In the specific case of the 'Ukrainian Slave Girl', I think we're agreed that crossed a line; partly due to the timing of the subject matter and partly due to it being based on a real person.

In the case of, say, Manufaktura, I don't see rape fantasy. I see a lot of bondage and humiliation, but nothing they've produced has offended any of my sensibilities.

...thinking a bit more, I'm wondering if it's just that I'm okay with rape fantasy, as long as it stops at fantasy.


I don't know enough about Manufaktura, and I'm not condemning or supporting them for the record. The difference with Vinni's work is that they're all very clearly slaves or unwilling. A lot of them were labeled as stuff like "X in peril" or "X slavegirl." But like I said, I don't know very much about Manufaktura and am not judging it because of that. As for GW, It might be due to production issues, or it might have been the gradual shift of the company (I mean, look at their recent public statements regarding inclusivity). I have no doubt at least some of that is PR speak, but there's clearly some drive at the company to not tolerate stuff like that.

As for rape fantasy, what I mean is when the fantasy includes at least one party that is unwilling or unconsenting. Consensual rape fantasy (as in, roleplaying by both parties) is a different matter I think.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/14 21:10:59


Post by: Wolfblade


 insaniak wrote:
Aecus Decimus wrote:

OTOH does BDSM fetish stuff really belong on a forum where you can't say "donkey-cave" because think of the children?

To be clear, 'think of the children' is a gross simplification of the reason for keeping the site family-friendly. It's a standard that is intended to also keep the site accessible to those checking in from work or other potentially public places, and also just to keep things at the same sort of standard you would expect in most public social gatherings.


So, since the other thread is locked without an answer, is it ok to post NSFW links or links to otherwise prohibited content (at least, AFAIK) such as rape fantasy models based on real people? Edit: I do see that vinni's thread was locked, however. Still, the question stands I suppose as the new rules are not published yet.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/14 21:20:33


Post by: Apple fox


I think for now, let the mods look at where best to move on from here.
These things take time, and they do work hard.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/14 21:26:57


Post by: Wolfblade


Apple fox wrote:
I think for now, let the mods look at where best to move on from here.
These things take time, and they do work hard.


It's been something like a month and a half since the "real" start of this discussion, and about 8 days since the rules were "finalized" it seems, but they have not been updated anywhere I could easily find (except for here, in this thread). If the rules are ready to go, it doesn't take that much effort to swap out one portion of text for another.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/14 21:34:36


Post by: Tsagualsa


 Wolfblade wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
I think for now, let the mods look at where best to move on from here.
These things take time, and they do work hard.


It's been something like a month and a half since the "real" start of this discussion, and about 8 days since the rules were "finalized" it seems, but they have not been updated anywhere I could easily find (except for here, in this thread). If the rules are ready to go, it doesn't take that much effort to swap out one portion of text for another.


I don't see how any of this is a 'rules problem' situation. How hard is it to say 'We do not want this specific sick s**t on this forum, don't come back before you removed it'? The rules can be cleared up at the moderations convenience later on, just remove the freaking rape-endorsing gross stuff and its owner for the time being. I feel like i'm taking crazypills here, the double standards are so thick you can cut them with a knife. Nothing about this makes penning the perfect set of rules right now necessary like, at all, because this stuff is way way way over any line any reasonable rule would draw. This is not about a cheeky tit here or there or a risque political satire, it's about unmitigated, spiteful, mean-spirited dreck.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/14 21:43:45


Post by: Wolfblade


Tsagualsa wrote:
 Wolfblade wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
I think for now, let the mods look at where best to move on from here.
These things take time, and they do work hard.


It's been something like a month and a half since the "real" start of this discussion, and about 8 days since the rules were "finalized" it seems, but they have not been updated anywhere I could easily find (except for here, in this thread). If the rules are ready to go, it doesn't take that much effort to swap out one portion of text for another.


I don't see how any of this is a 'rules problem' situation. How hard is it to say 'We do not want this specific sick s**t on this forum, don't come back before you removed it'? The rules can be cleared up at the moderations convenience later on, just remove the freaking rape-endorsing gross stuff and its owner for the time being. I feel like i'm taking crazypills here, the double standards are so thick you can cut them with a knife. Nothing about this makes penning the perfect set of rules right now necessary like, at all, because this stuff is way way way over any line any reasonable rule would draw. This is not about a cheeky tit here or there or a risque political satire, it's about unmitigated, spiteful, mean-spirited dreck.


It's a "rules problem" because that's what dakka's mods have said. That's their defense of why it's taken so long, why they haven't banned/suspended anyone, and why they've only locked threads, and deleted posts that are "off-topic. I totally agree that it should be unacceptable, and I think a lot of other people do too. And did when this issue was first raised too.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/14 21:50:52


Post by: Tsagualsa


 Wolfblade wrote:
Tsagualsa wrote:
 Wolfblade wrote:
Apple fox wrote:
I think for now, let the mods look at where best to move on from here.
These things take time, and they do work hard.


It's been something like a month and a half since the "real" start of this discussion, and about 8 days since the rules were "finalized" it seems, but they have not been updated anywhere I could easily find (except for here, in this thread). If the rules are ready to go, it doesn't take that much effort to swap out one portion of text for another.


I don't see how any of this is a 'rules problem' situation. How hard is it to say 'We do not want this specific sick s**t on this forum, don't come back before you removed it'? The rules can be cleared up at the moderations convenience later on, just remove the freaking rape-endorsing gross stuff and its owner for the time being. I feel like i'm taking crazypills here, the double standards are so thick you can cut them with a knife. Nothing about this makes penning the perfect set of rules right now necessary like, at all, because this stuff is way way way over any line any reasonable rule would draw. This is not about a cheeky tit here or there or a risque political satire, it's about unmitigated, spiteful, mean-spirited dreck.


It's a "rules problem" because that's what dakka's mods have said. That's their defense of why it's taken so long, why they haven't banned/suspended anyone, and why they've only locked threads, and deleted posts that are "off-topic. I totally agree that it should be unacceptable, and I think a lot of other people do too. And did when this issue was first raised too.


Ignoring all the preceding story for a bit, i just don't understand how there's any shade of ambiguity in this whole situation. If i came up to the mods and asked 'I want to use this forum to advertise my webshop where i sell artwork of sexual abuse. Specifically sexual abuse, not only sexual situations or erotica. Some of the persons depicted are also recognizably modelled after well-known politicians that i personally don't like' the verdict would be pretty clear, or at least i'd sure hope so - on a forum that proclaims to aim for 'family friendly'. The only difference between the actual situation and that hypothetical seems to be that 'it has always been done that way' and nobody bothered asking before posting that stuff.

Edit: For the record i'm not trying to stir something up, i just stumbled on the various threads about that problem, read up on it a bit and am just totally nonplussed about all of it.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/14 23:16:39


Post by: insaniak


Tsagualsa wrote:

Ignoring all the preceding story for a bit, i just don't understand how there's any shade of ambiguity in this whole situation. If i came up to the mods and asked 'I want to use this forum to advertise my webshop where i sell artwork of sexual abuse. Specifically sexual abuse, not only sexual situations or erotica. Some of the persons depicted are also recognizably modelled after well-known politicians that i personally don't like' the verdict would be pretty clear, or at least i'd sure hope so - on a forum that proclaims to aim for 'family friendly'. The only difference between the actual situation and that hypothetical seems to be that 'it has always been done that way' and nobody bothered asking before posting that stuff.

Edit: For the record i'm not trying to stir something up, i just stumbled on the various threads about that problem, read up on it a bit and am just totally nonplussed about all of it.

To be fair, the whole thing has become a bit of a tangle, so here's a recap:

Dakka's previous content policy was fairly broad, with NSFW content allowed within certain visibility guidelines, to allow for people to make up their own minds about what was and was not appropriate for their own hobby.

A small group of people with little interest in actually participating in this community, spurred on by discussions on another forum, decided that a model released a decade ago was suddenly a pressing issue that needed to be resolved immediately. While disagreeing with the way they went about presenting that case, the current mod team agreed that the model in question was in poor taste and reflected badly on the community at large, removed the 10-year-old thread, and initiated discussions internally on updating the content policy.

Dakka's current active moderation team is very small, and we and the site's owners all have other demands on our time right now, so that discussion is slow, but ongoing.


To address the issue of posting links to other sites - as a reminder, NSFW content is not inherently a problem, so long as it is posted appropriately. The updated rules ban abuse content, not all nudity. Links to inappropriate content would, in my view, be covered by the same rules as posting them directly to the forum. If it's not ok to post it here, it shouldn't really be ok to link to it either, although that's going to depend on the context of the discussion that prompted the link.

That being said, links to appropriate content on sites that also happen to include inappropriate content are not inherently an issue. If we ban links to sites that may or may not have offensive content on them, we put the moderation team in the position of having to police the content of other websites to determine if links are ok or not (which is, frankly, a ridiculous demand of a team of volunteer hobby site moderators) and we wind up banning links to, off the top of my head, Deviant Art, Reddit, Facebook and Twitter.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/14 23:25:29


Post by: Wolfblade


That model was brought up as an issue years ago too, let's not pretend it wasn't an issue then too.

The dakka mods just cared even less back then despite the fact it goes very explicitly against the site's rules. Also, part of the reason some people (myself included) drifted away from dakka was due to stuff like that getting a pass. That, and to be completely frank, what seemed like a mod team that always seems to take the easiest path or ruling on anything certainly didn't help when people would get various threads shut down (i.e. anything related to female space marines) by acting like complete gak stains while suffering no reprecussions.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/14 23:53:06


Post by: insaniak


I'm not going to debate with you on site rules from a decade ago, because that seems more than a little pointless.

I will point out, though, that your perception of the 'easiest path' is tinted by the fact that much of the work the mods do is not visible.

Taking female space marine discussion as a prime example - yes, the topic was eventually somewhat unofficially banned for some time. That came after a considerable amount of effort on the part of the mod team to keep similar discussions on track. The latest iteration of that discussion, in a thread that wound up running for 16 pages, involved several days of me and other mods shepharding the thread, deleting inappropriate tangets, banning several users who refused to play nice, and posting to keep the topic focused. That involves a considerable investment of time, effort, and mental energy on that one specific thread in order to allow that discussion to exist. And then, when it had finally run its course, there's the peanut gallery on another forum complaining about the moderation team here taking the 'easiest option'.

For the record, the easiest option would have been to just delete the thread after the first post.

You have absolutely no conception of the amount of work the volunteer moderators here do to keep the site running more or less on track, and what else we all have going on behind the scenes. You sit there on your other forum bleating about what a terrible job we're all doing and how you have no interest in the community, and yet here you are insisting on stirring up drama because we're not responding to your demands quickly enough for your satisfaction.

The mods do what they do because they care about the site, and they signed on because it was a chance to help the community to keep going. the way we do that won't always be the way you would do it. It likely won't always be the best way to do it... because we're a team of volunteers who do this while real life is also happening to us all.

And if that's not good enough for you, then, honestly, so be it. Go back to your other forum where you can make snide comments about how crap we all are rather than wasting everyone's time here.



Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/15 00:33:45


Post by: Wolfblade


 insaniak wrote:
because we're not responding to your demands quickly enough for your satisfaction.


I disagree with what you've posted but I think that's irrelevant considering you don't want to discuss it, and more importantly, I think you said that is untrue. My issue is not "you're not responding fast enough!" I literally asked twice, about three weeks apart to try and make sure the topic was not forgotten. Now, if around six weeks isn't enough time to look at a single section of the current rules and make changes to them (which it clearly was), and a week wasn't enough time to update the site's rules, make an announcement post, and inform the users directly affected (i.e. vinni) then frankly, things are moving awfully slowly. From experience, it doesn't take much time to replace one section of text with another. I mean, ingtaer posted an updated section of rules that seems like a final update, but it still has not made it here despite a little over a week since it was posted. I'm not even sure the rules were announced anywhere else but here, and potentially in PMs to OPs of affected threads.

And of course, we still have the weird "family-friendly for kids" swear filter at odds with allowing NSFW content.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/15 02:34:31


Post by: Aecus Decimus


I'll refrain from commenting on the general moderation issue because, while I have opinions on how things are run, I doubt it's going anywhere constructive and I'd rather not get banned for it. So just the specific NSFW issue:

 insaniak wrote:
A small group of people with little interest in actually participating in this community, spurred on by discussions on another forum, decided that a model released a decade ago was suddenly a pressing issue that needed to be resolved immediately.


I admit that I don't know what was happening on some other unnamed forum but I think it's kind of unfair to frame this as "digging up old stuff to start drama" when the person responsible for the rape fetish model in question is still an active poster here and still advertising his store, including both that particular rape fetish model and various other blatantly pornographic BDSM fetish stuff. Maybe someone wanted to start a conflict, maybe it's just that current events made someone take a second look at the guy selling rape fetish stuff involving a victim from a country currently suffering from horrifying war crimes, it's still an issue that is currently relevant to the community.

we wind up banning links to, off the top of my head, Deviant Art, Reddit, Facebook and Twitter.


Why? Why not use common sense with the policy and recognize the difference between linking to a general-purpose site with millions of users covering an immense range of topics, most of whom have no connection to each other, and linking to a store page that doesn't technically contain the inappropriate material on that very specific page of the seller's store? It seems pretty obvious that one of these is going to lead much more directly to inappropriate material than the other.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/15 03:04:04


Post by: insaniak


Aecus Decimus wrote:

Why? Why not use common sense with the policy and recognize the difference between linking to a general-purpose site with millions of users covering an immense range of topics, most of whom have no connection to each other, and linking to a store page that doesn't technically contain the inappropriate material on that very specific page of the seller's store?

Because the moment you draw an arbitrary line, the complaints start about that line being in the wrong place, and more importantly because, ultimately, a policy that requires us to check links in order to determine whether or not the target site contains inappropriate content anywhere would be ridiculously impractical even if we exclude the major social media sites from it.

The job of the Dakka Moderation team is to moderate content and discussion on the Dakka website. It is not our job to police the entire online miniature wargaming community.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/15 03:13:53


Post by: Aecus Decimus


 insaniak wrote:
Because the moment you draw an arbitrary line, the complaints start about that line being in the wrong place, and more importantly because, ultimately, a policy that requires us to check links in order to determine whether or not the target site contains inappropriate content anywhere would be ridiculously impractical even if we exclude the major social media sites from it.

The job of the Dakka Moderation team is to moderate content and discussion on the Dakka website. It is not our job to police the entire online miniature wargaming community.


How is that any different from complaints being made about a line not being drawn, like the complaints in this very thread? I think you're way over-thinking something that's a very straightforward thing to handle. If it's a link to a general-purpose site that might somewhere have some inappropriate content that isn't particularly related to the thing being linked to then it's fine, and err on the side of allowing it. If it's a link to a notorious seller of rape fetish and pornographic BDSM miniatures you get rid of it even if the specific link is technically only to a page which links very directly to the objectionable content. It's not policing the entire online community, it's preventing "well I didn't technically link to it directly" being used as a way to evade the content policy and direct traffic to objectionable material. You know, as a certain notorious seller just did (and got his thread locked for), complete with open acknowledgement of what he was doing.

And why is it a problem to check links? Obviously you don't proactively check every single link that is posted, that's what the report function is for. If someone reports a post for objectionable material you check to see if the report was accurate. And if you can't pretty quickly find the objectionable material, well, that seems like a pretty strong argument that the link is fine.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/15 03:18:38


Post by: Jerram


I'm on another forum with a strict don't link NSFW policy. All it really does is lead to significant use of google with occasional help in post. This time won't even need the help, his webstore is the first thing that pops up when you type in his username. So basically the policy becomes something that doesn't really do much but other than cause work for the mods.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/15 03:36:21


Post by: insaniak


Aecus Decimus wrote:
I think you're way over-thinking something that's a very straightforward thing to handle..

From my experience, when a solution seems really simple but other people are overlooking it, it usually means that the problem is more complicated that I realise.

What this would do is add a huge amount of workload to the moderators, forcing us to spend a bunch of time investigating other websites (where that's even possible... what about content behind a paywall, like Patreon?) instead of spending our time here on Dakka.

Hell, a large part of the problem wouldn't even be those websites that actually have questionable content. We have users now who periodically report huge swathes of posts as containing political content. The reported posts almost never do contain political content, but we have to check them all anyway. Adding a policy like that being suggested here would result in us fielding endless vague 'Linked website contains inappropriate content' reports, which we would have to check out in the vain hope of figuring out what it is that people are finding objectionable. Or if there even is anything objectionable, and it's not just someone with an axe to grind against that particular manufacturer, or someone who dislikes nude models, or someone who thinks that female models are inherently political.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/15 03:51:39


Post by: Aecus Decimus


 insaniak wrote:
What this would do is add a huge amount of workload to the moderators, forcing us to spend a bunch of time investigating other websites (where that's even possible... what about content behind a paywall, like Patreon?) instead of spending our time here on Dakka.


How long does it take to click a link, check if it has any obvious inappropriate material (probably assisted by people saying where it is in the report or in-thread discussion), and deal with it appropriately? And like I said, if the inappropriate content isn't fast and straightforward to find then the link is probably ok unless someone can give very specific reasons why it isn't. You're talking about what, 30 seconds to verify a link? A minute or two max?

As for paywalled content the obvious thing would be to just ask one of the people objecting to it to send a screenshot of it. If they genuinely object to it and aren't just trying to generate drama they should be perfectly happy to help with that. And if they can't clearly articulate what is objectionable and provide an example of it, well, that seems like it ends the conversation and any need for moderator action.

We have users now who periodically report huge swathes of posts as containing political content. The reported posts almost never do contain political content, but we have to check them all anyway.


It sounds like the problem isn't the rule, it's that you have users who are blatantly abusing the reporting system and not getting banned for it. Warn them that their behavior is not acceptable, ban them if it continues. That seems like it would deal with the majority of the nonsense reports.

(And of course if you don't want mass reporting for political content you could always un-ban political discussions!)


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/15 04:02:46


Post by: Azreal13


Tell you what, how about the mods send you all the content and links that need reviewing, then you can report back to them every day letting them know what you think needs further investigation.

How long would that take?


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/15 04:14:14


Post by: Aecus Decimus


 Azreal13 wrote:
Tell you what, how about the mods send you all the content and links that need reviewing, then you can report back to them every day letting them know what you think needs further investigation.

How long would that take?


Based on the number of questionable posts I've seen on this forum, not more than a minute or two per day. Probably less once a certain seller of rape fetish stuff is banned. But sure, let's do this experiment, give me admin powers and I'd be happy to run this forum.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/15 04:21:40


Post by: Azreal13


Oh, no, no moderation power, just adminstrative drudgery. You shouldn't be happy to spend other people's time in a manner you aren't prepared to spend your own.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/15 04:24:45


Post by: Aecus Decimus


 Azreal13 wrote:
Oh, no, no moderation power, just adminstrative drudgery. You shouldn't be happy to spend other people's time in a manner you aren't prepared to spend your own.


I'm not. I just volunteered to spend my time the same way. Giving the work of reviewing but not the moderation powers is not spending time the same way, it's creating a new and lesser role just to have something to attack me over.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/15 04:47:16


Post by: Azreal13


You're suggesting adding time to the "working week" of the voluntary moderation team for no increase in power or perks under the rationalisation that it wouldn't take long.

I'm merely suggesting that if it wouldn't take long, then you'd have no objections to undertaking that extra work yourself on the same basis.

I'm not attacking you at all, I just feel I've made a perfectly reasonable suggestion to get you what you want without putting extra demands on the existing mods.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/15 05:09:53


Post by: Aecus Decimus


 Azreal13 wrote:
You're suggesting adding time to the "working week" of the voluntary moderation team for no increase in power or perks under the rationalisation that it wouldn't take long.

I'm merely suggesting that if it wouldn't take long, then you'd have no objections to undertaking that extra work yourself on the same basis.

I'm not attacking you at all, I just feel I've made a perfectly reasonable suggestion to get you what you want without putting extra demands on the existing mods.


This is completely absurd. Aside from the fact that you don't have any power to offer such a deal in the first place having me review all of the material without moderator powers to act on those reviews would require more time from the existing moderators than just dealing with it themselves. They'd have to assemble and forward me a list of links to review and then evaluate my recommendations, something which would require them to check the links themselves anyway to see if they agree with me. This isn't a reasonable suggestion, it's you coming up with an absurd "gotcha" trap that isn't nearly as clever as you seem to think it is.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/15 05:18:39


Post by: Azreal13


I'm not offering the deal, I'm suggesting you volunteer. Then it would be up to the mods and Lego and Yak if they felt it was workable.

But, yes, of course, my entirely Machiavellian plan was to highlight your hypocrisy in demanding other people spend more of their freely given time to enforce an already dubious policy, when we all know that most of us wouldn't be prepared to spend even a fraction of that time.

Frankly I'm staggered you saw through me. I may need to go and lie down. You must be very clever.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/15 05:29:06


Post by: Aecus Decimus


I'd spend the time to enforce the policy with a workable solution (involving actual mod powers).

I would not spend the time to "help" enforce the policy with a deliberately dysfunctional and inefficient solution created for the sole purpose of winning an internet argument.

I am such a hypocrite. :(


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/15 06:56:54


Post by: Wolfblade


Saying "do the mod's job but without any of their powers," means they wouldn't be doing the mod's job.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/15 08:47:48


Post by: Tsagualsa


 insaniak wrote:
Aecus Decimus wrote:
I think you're way over-thinking something that's a very straightforward thing to handle..

From my experience, when a solution seems really simple but other people are overlooking it, it usually means that the problem is more complicated that I realise.

What this would do is add a huge amount of workload to the moderators, forcing us to spend a bunch of time investigating other websites (where that's even possible... what about content behind a paywall, like Patreon?) instead of spending our time here on Dakka.

Hell, a large part of the problem wouldn't even be those websites that actually have questionable content. We have users now who periodically report huge swathes of posts as containing political content. The reported posts almost never do contain political content, but we have to check them all anyway. Adding a policy like that being suggested here would result in us fielding endless vague 'Linked website contains inappropriate content' reports, which we would have to check out in the vain hope of figuring out what it is that people are finding objectionable. Or if there even is anything objectionable, and it's not just someone with an axe to grind against that particular manufacturer, or someone who dislikes nude models, or someone who thinks that female models are inherently political.


Why would any of that follow from acting in this specific situation? Is it not possible to make an exception now, for precisely this one problem, and leave the rules in general alone? I don't see how taking action in the case of this spefic user and store makes sweeping changes to the whole moderation system necessary, it's literally one dude among hundreds of users and threads that more or less behave themselves as they should. I genuinely don't understand why that increase in workload would follow... Are you -as in 'the moderation team' - afraid of making a single clear exception for a single very egregious outlier case? If so, why - i think most people would understand, again, in this specific case.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/15 08:58:33


Post by: AduroT


 insaniak wrote:
A small group of people with little interest in actually participating in this community, spurred on by discussions on another forum, decided that a model released a decade ago was suddenly a pressing issue that needed to be resolved immediately. While disagreeing with the way they went about presenting that case, the current mod team agreed that the model in question was in poor taste and reflected badly on the community at large, removed the 10-year-old thread, and initiated discussions internally on updating the content policy.


Another forum which only exists because you banned any talk of politics here. It’s not some other random forum, it’s a direct offshoot of this one and made up of members from here. Brother Vinni isn’t some random issue now after ten years, I’ve seen his thread complained about several times here off and on over the years with nothing being done about it before now. It only got brought up on the other forum as a response to the mod team deciding again that his post was to be free from criticism and it was not allowed to point out that he makes and sells slavery and abuse models based on real people. (I almost wish N&R topics were free from criticism so we didn’t get multipage tangents of people who don’t like Primaris clogging up every 40k thread…) And then you only deleted the thread after over a month, and apparently Then began discussion on rules updates?


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/15 10:10:26


Post by: Haighus


 AduroT wrote:
 insaniak wrote:
A small group of people with little interest in actually participating in this community, spurred on by discussions on another forum, decided that a model released a decade ago was suddenly a pressing issue that needed to be resolved immediately. While disagreeing with the way they went about presenting that case, the current mod team agreed that the model in question was in poor taste and reflected badly on the community at large, removed the 10-year-old thread, and initiated discussions internally on updating the content policy.


Another forum which only exists because you banned any talk of politics here. It’s not some other random forum, it’s a direct offshoot of this one and made up of members from here. Brother Vinni isn’t some random issue now after ten years, I’ve seen his thread complained about several times here off and on over the years with nothing being done about it before now. It only got brought up on the other forum as a response to the mod team deciding again that his post was to be free from criticism and it was not allowed to point out that he makes and sells slavery and abuse models based on real people. (I almost wish N&R topics were free from criticism so we didn’t get multipage tangents of people who don’t like Primaris clogging up every 40k thread…) And then you only deleted the thread after over a month, and apparently Then began discussion on rules updates?

I'd also like to add that several regular users of the other forum are also still active members of Dakka, like myself. I typically post more regularly here at the moment. It isn't just a disgruntled diaspora...


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/15 14:49:59


Post by: Manfred von Drakken


Wait, wait, wait, wait. Wait.

Wait.

A group of people who didn't like the rules here decided to go elsewhere, this topic came up there, they decided to come here and kick a hornets' nest, and now they're upset the mods aren't catering to their wishes... do I have that right?

You guys know the mods don't work for you, right?


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/15 14:54:46


Post by: AduroT


Nope, wrong.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/15 15:23:17


Post by: Pacific


It's good to see the Vinni thread has been locked. I don't think it's acceptable to have a company that has miniatures listed as 'Ukranian slave girl', a nude in submissive pose/rape victim, in relation to what's happening in the world right now. And the guy continues to have the miniature described as that, so he is obviously comfortable with it. I don't think 'PoS' comes even close to describing someone who gets kicks out of doing that sort of thing, and the good human being in me hopes that he never has anyone he knows or loves exposed to that sort of horror.

So going off the absolute fething moral cowardice of allowing him to continue to have an active thread, if he continues to post and is allowed to advertise his sick miniatures then I'm gone. Annoying as hell for me as there is a great little community down that I enjoy posting and interacting with, and I've been a member on Dakka for a long time, but I can't reconcile with a site that allows that sort of sick gak to be posted here.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/15 15:28:23


Post by: Grimskul


The funniest part is that they have a dedicated thread on this other forum that is based around gossiping and crap-posting on this forum and its moderation, like the way a group of ex-girlfriends collectively dump on a person they previously dated. They then basically use threads like this to make snide comments afterwards as if it proves their superiority in having mostly left this forum.

Kind of hard to claim a moral high horse when they're clearly doing all this from having a chip on their shoulder about the forum.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/15 15:53:05


Post by: Jerram


Insaniak,

A couple of them have already stated what their end goal is, they want Vinni off the site completely, not his NSFW models but him gone. So either,

Give in to the mob completely and don't be surprised the next time the pitch forks come out for something else.

Tell them explicitly no, reopen the SFW thread, edit the OP if you feel you need to and then give people who constantly post off topic a mandatory vacation and move on.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/15 16:00:49


Post by: Aecus Decimus


 Grimskul wrote:
The funniest part is that they have a dedicated thread on this other forum that is based around gossiping and crap-posting on this forum and its moderation, like the way a group of ex-girlfriends collectively dump on a person they previously dated. They then basically use threads like this to make snide comments afterwards as if it proves their superiority in having mostly left this forum.

Kind of hard to claim a moral high horse when they're clearly doing all this from having a chip on their shoulder about the forum.


Whatever their motives may or may not be on some hypothetical unnamed forum doesn't change the fact that pornographic rape fetish models are not appropriate content for this site (or for the hobby in general). I have nothing to do with this supposed other forum and I agree 100% with the need for a rule change and enforcement of that rule.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/15 16:15:16


Post by: Herzlos


 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Wait, wait, wait, wait. Wait.

Wait.

A group of people who didn't like the rules here decided to go elsewhere, this topic came up there, they decided to come here and kick a hornets' nest, and now they're upset the mods aren't catering to their wishes... do I have that right?

You guys know the mods don't work for you, right?


Not quite. A group of active members* on here who liked talking about politics and stuff had to find a new forum to talk about politics and stuff after Dakka mods banned it instead of moderating it properly. The initial problem was polarizing politics and people reporting stuff they don't like, so instead of telling off the report spammers and dealing with them, they banned politics across the entire site which makes talking about more or less anything current affairs or economic impossible.

Many of them are still active on here, they just talk about the stuff they can't on here, over there. Dakka rarely comes up over there, there was a single thread created to stop a small tangent on this subject but that's it.

The Vinni thing comes up regularly but seems especially pertinent now that Vinni's home country, where he was at the time the mini was released even if he's since moved, invaded the country of the real life person that's depicted in the mini.


*Many with post counts far in excess of yours. I haven't posted on here much since the politics ban and I'm still at 4,400. There are others on 10k+ so to pretend that the other forum has nothing to do with here is disingenuous.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/15 16:18:12


Post by: Aecus Decimus


And it's funny that you complain about gossip because I'm sure seeing a lot of gossip about this other forum, who might have other accounts there, etc.

("You" being Grimskul, since someone split my auto-append.)


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/15 16:31:16


Post by: Herzlos


Sorry, I'm good at getting in the way


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/15 16:54:07


Post by: ZebioLizard2


Aecus Decimus wrote:
And it's funny that you complain about gossip because I'm sure seeing a lot of gossip about this other forum, who might have other accounts there, etc.

("You" being Grimskul, since someone split my auto-append.)
Yes because a few complaints when a bunch of congregated other forum members are trying to push their will onto another forum is certainly comparable.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/15 17:13:05


Post by: A Town Called Malus


I must say that I find the reluctance of the mods to actually moderate what and who they allow to advertise on the site to be quite confusing.

Like, let's create a hypothetical miniature maker who makes 28mm soldier minis with a certain mid 20th century european aesthetic. They post images of those minis and links to their external store. On that external store there are miniatures called things like "globalist banker", and "subhuman" which are physical miniature depictions of specific propagandistic depictions of certain groups of people.

Is it Dakka's policy that the miniature maker is fine to advertise their products and their store so long as they don't post those specific miniatures to Dakka itself, that as long as the only images they post to dakka are their soldiers and they don't specifically reference the other minis it is fine for them to advertise their store on the site? Even though anybody going to that site from Dakka will then be exposed to those other miniatures?

Surely it is literally the job of the moderators to decide who they allow to use Dakka as an advertising tool, and a part of that is not only deciding what is allowed to be posted to Dakka itself, but also determining whether certain sites should not be linked to due to the content of those sites? They already do this with regards to, say, recasters or piracy sites.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/15 17:33:29


Post by: Wolfblade


How can they ever check that every site linked aren't recasters or pirates? It's almost like... they don't need to and a report button exists to report said sites that violate the rules...


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/15 17:39:17


Post by: Azreal13


The problem is you can ban accounts, but it's much harder to ban people. Even banning an IP is a relatively trivial thing to bypass, and it's precisely the sort of person you'd want to do that to that would be the most motivated to do so.

It's already against the rules to operate multiple accounts, but that's super hard to enforce. There's a few things that raise red flags, but it's often quite difficult to make a conclusive link unless someone's vernacular is distinct or they make the same distinctive spelling errors or similar.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/15 17:43:26


Post by: Manfred von Drakken


Herzlos wrote:
 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Wait, wait, wait, wait. Wait.

Wait.

A group of people who didn't like the rules here decided to go elsewhere, this topic came up there, they decided to come here and kick a hornets' nest, and now they're upset the mods aren't catering to their wishes... do I have that right?

You guys know the mods don't work for you, right?


Not quite. A group of active members* on here who liked talking about politics and stuff had to find a new forum to talk about politics and stuff after Dakka mods banned it instead of moderating it properly. The initial problem was polarizing politics and people reporting stuff they don't like, so instead of telling off the report spammers and dealing with them, they banned politics across the entire site which makes talking about more or less anything current affairs or economic impossible.

Many of them are still active on here, they just talk about the stuff they can't on here, over there. Dakka rarely comes up over there, there was a single thread created to stop a small tangent on this subject but that's it.

The Vinni thing comes up regularly but seems especially pertinent now that Vinni's home country, where he was at the time the mini was released even if he's since moved, invaded the country of the real life person that's depicted in the mini.


*Many with post counts far in excess of yours. I haven't posted on here much since the politics ban and I'm still at 4,400. There are others on 10k+ so to pretend that the other forum has nothing to do with here is disingenuous.


You bring up post count like it has some bearing on quality or validity. There's a saying about people who speak because they have something to say and those who speak because they have to say something; I'm among the former. I've been around long enough that Dakka Dakka was my first FLGS. I choose to speak infrequently.

I have said it before, and will do so again: I find that the mini in question crosses the line, but only because it is modeled on a real person and is still identified with a tone-deaf label. I have no issue with the rest of his work; it's just not my personal cup of tea in most cases.

My main concern now is the baying mob that - in my opinion and view - is harassing the mods for not wholly capitulating to their demands.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/15 17:44:56


Post by: A Town Called Malus


In what way are we harassing the mods?


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/15 18:06:58


Post by: Manfred von Drakken


*gestures vaguely at this thread*


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/15 18:21:06


Post by: A Town Called Malus


 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
*gestures vaguely at this thread*


No, specifics. How does this count as harassment?


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/15 18:24:51


Post by: Not Online!!!


 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
*gestures vaguely at this thread*


No, specifics. How does this count as harassment?


Look up brigading.

Because this is what it looks like.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/15 18:31:44


Post by: A Town Called Malus


Not Online!!! wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
*gestures vaguely at this thread*


No, specifics. How does this count as harassment?


Look up brigading.

Because this is what it looks like.

"When people from one group, organization, fandom, forum, server, etc. aggressively infiltrates, usually spontaneously, a rival forum, server, or stream; negative criticism is usually given to the victim of a brigade (the event itself sometimes being called a raid), with insults and counter-signaling common. Usually used in the past participle ("brigaded"). Brigades can be done in good humor, but are usually antagonistic in nature."
1) The people commenting are members of this forum already, there was no infiltration.
2) There was also no call to action to participate in this thread or the other. They were shared and commented on but there was never any call for participation by anyone involved.
3) There have not, largely, been any insults thrown about. I certainly have not insulted anyone and have tried to keep my criticism focused onto a matter that I feel is worth discussion.
4) Dakka is not a rival, due to the very actions of the moderation team in banning political discussion.

I feel that what has happened is missing a lot of key features of a brigade. For one, usually the actions in a brigade are quite indiscriminate, based around blanketing the forum/server/stream in noise to effectively shut down all discussion by the members of said forum/etc. (and remember, all this discussion is being done by existing and in many cases long-term dakka members, so it is already missing the "outside infiltrating force" aspect of a brigade), even if it is limited to a specific discussion topic. That has definitely not happened. Discussion about this issue has been restricted to the thread which caused it, this thread, and the thread wolfblade made.
Do you disagree?


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/15 18:34:19


Post by: Aecus Decimus


 Azreal13 wrote:
The problem is you can ban accounts, but it's much harder to ban people. Even banning an IP is a relatively trivial thing to bypass, and it's precisely the sort of person you'd want to do that to that would be the most motivated to do so.

It's already against the rules to operate multiple accounts, but that's super hard to enforce. There's a few things that raise red flags, but it's often quite difficult to make a conclusive link unless someone's vernacular is distinct or they make the same distinctive spelling errors or similar.


I'm not sure what that has to do with the topic here? Someone can make a ban evasion account but you have to at least pretend to not be the same person. As soon as they post another link to their store it will immediately reveal that it's the same person on a new account and the new account can also be banned. I bet you could even add the link to their store to the word filter so that it just auto-deletes the links.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/15 18:50:24


Post by: Azreal13


It was in response to a post about how mods should be controlling who posts here, it's subsequently been edited, so either I misread it or the edit has revised it to be clearer that it was talking about retailers.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/15 19:43:07


Post by: Not Online!!!


 A Town Called Malus wrote:

"When people from one group, organization, fandom, forum, server, etc. aggressively infiltrates, usually spontaneously, a rival forum, server, or stream; negative criticism is usually given to the victim of a brigade (the event itself sometimes being called a raid), with insults and counter-signaling common. Usually used in the past participle ("brigaded"). Brigades can be done in good humor, but are usually antagonistic in nature."
1) The people commenting are members of this forum already, there was no infiltration.
2) There was also no call to action to participate in this thread or the other. They were shared and commented on but there was never any call for participation by anyone involved.
3) There have not, largely, been any insults thrown about. I certainly have not insulted anyone and have tried to keep my criticism focused onto a matter that I feel is worth discussion.
4) Dakka is not a rival, due to the very actions of the moderation team in banning political discussion.

I feel that what has happened is missing a lot of key features of a brigade. For one, usually the actions in a brigade are quite indiscriminate, based around blanketing the forum/server/stream in noise to effectively shut down all discussion by the members of said forum/etc. (and remember, all this discussion is being done by existing and in many cases long-term dakka members, so it is already missing the "outside infiltrating force" aspect of a brigade), even if it is limited to a specific discussion topic. That has definitely not happened. Discussion about this issue has been restricted to the thread which caused it, this thread, and the thread wolfblade made.
Do you disagree?


What it looks like.

And frankly Nr 2 is implied in the other thread.
Nr 3 Is frankly untrue considering the parent thread on the other forum.



Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/15 19:47:41


Post by: Aecus Decimus


Can someone either post a link to this supposed "other forum" with specific examples to support the accusations being made here or just stop gossiping about what some other forum thinks? The question here is what policies this site should have regarding offensive and/or pornographic content, not who is having drama with who on some other unrelated forum.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/15 19:56:19


Post by: A Town Called Malus


Not Online!!! wrote:


What it looks like.

And frankly Nr 2 is implied in the other thread.
Nr 3 Is frankly untrue considering the parent thread on the other forum.



So, it isn't brigading then. Which brings us back to how is anything being done here harassment of the mods? I feel that if the mods were being harassed they would have banned the members doing so, yes? Harassment is definitely against dakka's rules. So, either the mods are being harassed and doing nothing about it, or some users are trying to deflect from criticism of the dakka moderation approach regarding a specific circumstance by accusing those raising the issue of harassment. Which is it?

And hang on, your definition of brigading includes people apparently insulting the site being brigaded on a site which is not the one being brigaded? That is a ludicrous attempt to try and shift the goalposts. By that logic all criticism or insults of any platform on another platform is brigading.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/15 21:18:01


Post by: Not Online!!!


 A Town Called Malus wrote:

So, it isn't brigading then. Which brings us back to how is anything being done here harassment of the mods? I feel that if the mods were being harassed they would have banned the members doing so, yes? Harassment is definitely against dakka's rules. So, either the mods are being harassed and doing nothing about it, or some users are trying to deflect from criticism of the dakka moderation approach regarding a specific circumstance by accusing those raising the issue of harassment. Which is it?

And hang on, your definition of brigading includes people apparently insulting the site being brigaded on a site which is not the one being brigaded? That is a ludicrous attempt to try and shift the goalposts. By that logic all criticism or insults of any platform on another platform is brigading.


Let's not pretend that it didn't ammount to a mob of people now having successfully instigated a ban of an completly unreleated thread, and got multiple threads locked.

Let's also not pretend that i claimed harrassement but that is not important. Familiar behaviour. Really , frankly I merely brought up how it looks.

Lastly on one hand some claim, that the other forum is merely an offshoot because dakka decided to ban politics and yet on the other hand somehow it isn't?
What is it?



Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/15 22:16:42


Post by: Aecus Decimus


Let's also not pretend that drama related to some other forum has anything to do with the question of whether this site should allow rape fetish models, graphic depictions of war crimes, and blatantly pornographic material. Regardless of whether or not this particular round of complaints had its origin in some other forum the primary target of the complaints has been an ongoing and notorious problem for a long time and it's well past overdue that something has finally been done about it.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/15 22:45:00


Post by: Azazelx


Is the naming of this "other forum" somehow verboten according to Dakka Rules or something?

I've never seen this level of talking around a name, nor have I seen any issue with naming other forums in the past, whether it to praise them or gak on them.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/15 22:46:58


Post by: Herzlos


 Manfred von Drakken wrote:


You bring up post count like it has some bearing on quality or validity. There's a saying about people who speak because they have something to say and those who speak because they have to say something; I'm among the former. I've been around long enough that Dakka Dakka was my first FLGS. I choose to speak infrequently.


I use post count to illustrate that these members aren't people who have appeared from another forum to complain; they've been active on Dakka for years. Far longer than the other forum even existed. The other forum is a red herring since the people complaining were members of this forum first; it's nothing but an excuse to discredit the argument after discrediting the original complainant (this time) because s/he wasn't a prominent enough member.

I have said it before, and will do so again: I find that the mini in question crosses the line, but only because it is modeled on a real person and is still identified with a tone-deaf label. I have no issue with the rest of his work; it's just not my personal cup of tea in most cases.


I largely agree, but then I'm not Ukranian, a woman, or a victim of sexual abuse, so I'm not sure how much of a say I have directly.

Indeed most of Vinnis sculpts are great, but some of them are definitely uncomfortable and not suitable for a family friendly site such as this.

My main concern now is the baying mob that - in my opinion and view - is harassing the mods for not wholly capitulating to their demands.


The baying mob, being a few members, have nudged the mods every few weeks to try and wheedle a conclusion out of them. I certainly don't see that as harassment. As far as I'm aware, no insults or threats have been used, and no mods are receiving PM's or having comments made outside of this thread.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/15 22:48:08


Post by: BobtheInquisitor


If I recall, the discussion on the other forum started because of a post here, back when the war with Ukraine’s started, which was deleted. Someone went to vent about it somewhere where the post wouldn’t be deleted, like all of the other posts made over the years calling out the specific miniature in question.

Let’s not pretend everyone here was cool with the Ukrainian victim mini up until a mob of people* on another forum suddenly decided it was an issue.


*more like three people, five if you count Wolfblade thrice.


Why did my post disappear? @ 2023/02/15 22:48:26


Post by: insaniak


 Haighus wrote:
 AduroT wrote:
 insaniak wrote:
A small group of people with little interest in actually participating in this community, spurred on by discussions on another forum, decided that a model released a decade ago was suddenly a pressing issue that needed to be resolved immediately. While disagreeing with the way they went about presenting that case, the current mod team agreed that the model in question was in poor taste and reflected badly on the community at large, removed the 10-year-old thread, and initiated discussions internally on updating the content policy.


Another forum which only exists because you banned any talk of politics here. It’s not some other random forum, it’s a direct offshoot of this one and made up of members from here. Brother Vinni isn’t some random issue now after ten years, I’ve seen his thread complained about several times here off and on over the years with nothing being done about it before now. It only got brought up on the other forum as a response to the mod team deciding again that his post was to be free from criticism and it was not allowed to point out that he makes and sells slavery and abuse models based on real people. (I almost wish N&R topics were free from criticism so we didn’t get multipage tangents of people who don’t like Primaris clogging up every 40k thread…) And then you only deleted the thread after over a month, and apparently Then began discussion on rules updates?

I'd also like to add that several regular users of the other forum are also still active members of Dakka, like myself. I typically post more regularly here at the moment. It isn't just a disgruntled diaspora...



Here's the thing, though - There is a thread on that other forum that exists solely to complain about things that happen here. Everyone who participates in that thread is setting themselves as separate and superior to a community they seemingly see as worthy only of scorn. When those 'active Dakka community members' saw an issue here they felt needed to be addressed, they left it to a sock-puppeting serial troll and a poster who claims to have no actual interest in participating on Dakka to do so. And so we wound up with this mess, instead of a sensible and civil discussion.

Policies should absolutely be dusted off and examined periodically to see if they are still appropriate. Sometimes that can take a while, sometimes not everyone agrees when it is actually time to do so, and sometimes (often) discussion is needed to prompt a change in the status quo. That process can happen much more easily if it is approached in a sensible manner.

Right now, we're updating the content policies and the new prohibition on abuse content will be reflected in the site rules once the final wording is nailed down. Vinni and Manufaktura's more objectionable content has been removed, and due to Vinni's decision to thumb his nose at the new policy and make light of said objectionable content, his account has also been suspended. Moving forward, both posting and linking to content of this nature will not be allowed. Non-sexual, non-abusive, genre-appropriate nudity will continue to be allowed with appropriate tagging and spoilering so that it can be easily avoided by those who do not want to see it or are viewing the forums somewhere that sort of content would not be appropriate.

This thread would seem to have more than run its course, by this point.