Henry Cavill’s Next Play: ‘Warhammer 40,000’ Series for Amazon The streaming giant is in the process of closing the rights to the miniature wargame.
Henry Cavill may not be donning a red cape, but he does have a cool new gig.
The actor, who Wednesday officially hung up his Man of Steel cape after Warner Bros. announced it is going in a new Superman direction thanks to DC Studio heads James Gunn and Peter Safran, is attached to star and executive produce a series adaptation of Warhammer 40,000, the popular science-fiction fantasy miniature wargame that is set up at Amazon.
Amazon is in final talks for the rights to the game, produced by Games Workshop, after months of negotiations and fending off rival companies that also sought the rights.
I want to be hopeful, but Amazon has killed way too many licensed properties, I don't want a teenage rom-com set in the 40k universe where a Tau and Ogryn fall in love. Henry Cavill was part of the attraction for Witcher and it sounded like he tried to keep it aligned with the lore but it ends with what the studio wants.
I can’t imagine a massive war based series, too expensive as a starter. I’d expect a more Inquisitorial feel to the series. It also opens up the diversity opportunities that modern streaming studios desire. Aeldari female ranger? Easy 40K is a super diverse arena that really has no limits. They could do this right without “forcing” it, and let’s hope it’s just the first of many adaptations.
Hope for the best, expect the worst. That's the safe mindset to take.
Amazon is real hit/miss. The Expanse was good, but Amazon only bought that show to save/finish it anyway. The LOTR show is hot trash. A lot of it is really going to depend on how well they respect the source material.
Cavill took The Witcher out back and shot it in the head, nobody is going to make him executive producer on a show where he doesn't have say and is happy with the direction of the story. Also, Amazon is not a little company, it's not the same people who make everything there. That's why series and movies are often very different from each other.
frankelee wrote: Cavill took The Witcher out back and shot it in the head...
The people in charge of that show shot The Witcher in the head. Cavill just dutifully fulfilled his 3 year contract and decided that he wouldn't renew. So now The Witcher get Mr. Charisma himself in his place, and Amazon get newly unemployed Cavill for their 40k project.
And yet they still can't pack something without destroying my taco shells. Amazon can't even put in a cardboard insert to keep stuff from sloshing around?
Good for him. We'll see what actually becomes of it, of course. I agree that something more intimate like Eisenhorn would be a good place to start. Make the story work on its own without all the 40K stuff and they'll be fine.
gorgon wrote: Good for him. We'll see what actually becomes of it, of course. I agree that something more intimate like Eisenhorn would be a good place to start. Make the story work on its own without all the 40K stuff and they'll be fine.
Tastes vary of course but I liked the slow burn of the Andor series.
If anything it proved what a good fx team could do to sci fi up some UK location shooting.
TalonZahn wrote: He's a huge Custodes fan, so I would look for that to be in play.
Tyranids are right out unless they're cutting Ridley Scott a check, lol.
That’s ridiculous. Genestealers look more like Stan Winston’s Pumpkinhead than any xenomorph. The gants and warriors in their modern form owe as much to Contra, Starcraft and starship troopers as they do Alien.
So this is how 40k dies, not with a bang but with fresh out of college (if that) writers who have zero knowledge of the setting and were just given a bullet point list of character names to insert into the unrelated fanfic they wrote in high school because Amazon isn't paying them enough to actually do work on the project.
KingGarland wrote: I have zero trust in Amazon either making a 40k show or owning the rights to the franchise.
This is GW we're talking about here. They aren't selling the rights to anything. They'll license them out, as they do with everything, but they'll remain theirs and theirs alone.
You know they've made far more than just Rings of Fanfiction, right?
lord_blackfang wrote: So this is how 40k dies, not with a bang but with fresh out of college (if that) writers who have zero knowledge of the setting and were just given a bullet point list of character names to insert into the unrelated fanfic they wrote in high school because Amazon isn't paying them enough to actually do work on the project.
Why would you say that? Why would you instantly assume this? Because Rings of Power is a terrible show that wastes the audience's time with non-mysteries and obvious conclusions with endless scenes of faffing about? That's one production by one group. Amazon make plenty more.
And again, it's GW. You don't think they're going to have a vice-like grip on what gets made like they do with everything they have ever licensed out?
ced1106 wrote: And yet they still can't pack something without destroying my taco shells. Amazon can't even put in a cardboard insert to keep stuff from sloshing around?
It's cheaper to refund the broken stuff than pack everything properly...
Hasn't there been an Eisenhorn show in development for a few years now, by the creators of Man in the High Castle (which was on Amazon)? So possibly related to that. Could certainly see Cavill as the younger Eisenhorn.
40k doesn't need particularly good writing to be good, it needs epicness to the point of absurdity, but writing? I mean it is hard to be afraid that Amazon is going to feth up the lore when 40k has never been able to agree with itself on its own lore.
Tavis75 wrote: Hasn't there been an Eisenhorn show in development for a few years now, by the creators of Man in the High Castle (which was on Amazon)? So possibly related to that. Could certainly see Cavill as the younger Eisenhorn.
Yup. Eisenhorn is also a decent way to introduce people to the setting. Being “just a man” you get a smaller scale tale, which can overtime be built up to show the bigger picture.
Tavis75 wrote: Hasn't there been an Eisenhorn show in development for a few years now, by the creators of Man in the High Castle (which was on Amazon)? So possibly related to that. Could certainly see Cavill as the younger Eisenhorn.
Yup. Eisenhorn is also a decent way to introduce people to the setting. Being “just a man” you get a smaller scale tale, which can overtime be built up to show the bigger picture.
Yes, Eisenhorn or similar Inquisitor based series has always seemed the perfect intro, it has a fairly relatable characters and the fairly common, "small group of specialists" idea making it fairly accessible, but then it can go pretty much anywhere in the 40k universe, with small scale human stories or stuff going on around some huge conflict, so incredibly versatile.
Inquisitors in particular, thanks to their sheer authority can do Police Procedural, Political Thriller, Expendables Type Combat Nonsense. All sorts. And it needn’t be one thing during a given episode.
The risk there of course is the whole of the thing becomes an incoherent mishmash of tropes over genre. But it could be made to work really well.
I think I’ve read one Eisenhorn book, and don’t really remember it that well. So those more versed in those specific stories can say more.
Stick some sideburns on Cavill, then stick sideburns on the sideburns and have him play Ciaphas Cain It's perfect for episodic TV, you can have Amberley off-screen narrate exposition, the stories in general are a bit more humorous than 'ra ra genocide ra fundamentalism', Cains frequent travels allow for anything from large plots to 'monster of the week' style stories, and because he meets a lot of people and is a womanizer you can have your diversity and romance if you need them. Also, Cain often acts as a exposition dump to his acquaintances, so you have another opportunity to introduce the lore that's necessary for the episode without messing up the timing too much.
Cavill being the EP is a good first step. Now he should push for a writers team that won't mystery box the show and actually gets 40k beyond grimderp and Ghazkull level puns.
That's presuming Amazon learned anything from WoT and RoP, which I kinda doubt.
That's presuming Amazon learned anything from WoT and RoP, which I kinda doubt.
Amazon just announced that RoP Season 2 will have an all-female direction, including a former lead director of WoT, so i don't think they did.
I'm confused? I'm accepting the premise that somehow the gender of the director matters, but RoP 1 had an 75% male director team. So are you saying you loved it, and they're moving in the wrong direction by changing up the directors?
That's presuming Amazon learned anything from WoT and RoP, which I kinda doubt.
Amazon just announced that RoP Season 2 will have an all-female direction, including a former lead director of WoT, so i don't think they did.
I'm confused? I'm accepting the premise that somehow the gender of the director matters, but RoP 1 had an 75% male director team. So are you saying you loved it, and they're moving in the wrong direction by changing up the directors?
It was a mistake to even mention it and i'm sorry i did, let's just don't have that discussion here, nothing good can come of it.
Not sure what to make of this. It'll be good (if only in the short term) for GW but Amazon butchered Lord of the Rings and Wheel of Time by not really respecting the source material and trying to make their own thing rather than adapting the actual content.
This being said it'll have a decent budget and GW have been notoriously picky over their IP, so may have retained more control than other licensees do.
I doubt it. Amazon would be providing the funding, GW are just lending the rights and presumably some level of oversight.
Now I may need a tinfoil hat for this, but whilst I freely admit I’ve no way of supporting, I think it’s a credible take…
This is what Warhammer+ was always about. GW take control of their own IP (a good move when looking to license it, as who wants to shell out when others are using it for free), and put out shows they’re happy reflect the setting. The actual quality of those shows matters less than what is confirmed to be Acceptable Content.
We’ve seen quite brutal, but not graphic violence. We’ve seen swears (and some quite big ones from the Pantheon Of Naughty Words). That’s a useful guide for anyone thinking of procuring Rights from you, as they now have a sense of what you, the owner of said Rights, are willing to sign off on in terms of content.
It’s kind of an Expo type thing. An advert to the industry of what could be done with this popular IP.
Tavis75 wrote: Hasn't there been an Eisenhorn show in development for a few years now, by the creators of Man in the High Castle (which was on Amazon)? So possibly related to that. Could certainly see Cavill as the younger Eisenhorn.
Yup. Eisenhorn is also a decent way to introduce people to the setting. Being “just a man” you get a smaller scale tale, which can overtime be built up to show the bigger picture.
And that’s GW’s tv/media arm.
They aren’t just looking at Eisenhorn.
Spotnitz was involved in several projects heading forward.
But the talks with Amazon are just them shopping it out to various networks which we knew they were doing.
Amazon is potentially just who we are landing on. It isn’t all being handed over to Amazon, they’ll just be putting up some of the bill and getting the goods, as with whomever they’d go with..
Automatically Appended Next Post: Whether these things will be good or not is of course a question up for debate.
But whether it’ll be in line with the lore and kept very “Warhammer” though, that’s not in question.
GW won’t be letting others water it down or make changes, they are very protective of the lore. It’s one of the most important aspects.
But as I say, that could be the downfall of a show, as sometimes changes need to be made for tv and film etc..
This happens all the time and never leads to fruition to be honest. There’s a awful lot of stages and steps.
But with GW pushing this as they are, I think it’s unlikely to collapse before we get somewhere.
Danny76 wrote: This happens all the time and never leads to fruition to be honest. There’s a awful lot of stages and steps.
But with GW pushing this as they are, I think it’s unlikely to collapse before we get somewhere.
Yes. I'm still waiting for the glacial pace of the Duncan Jones Rogue Trooper project to come to fruition.
lord_blackfang wrote: So this is how 40k dies, not with a bang but with fresh out of college (if that) writers who have zero knowledge of the setting and were just given a bullet point list of character names to insert into the unrelated fanfic they wrote in high school because Amazon isn't paying them enough to actually do work on the project.
This is an absurd degree of catastrophizing. But should this happen, I will dance on 40k's grave until my knees give out, and I will laugh, and laugh, and laugh until my voice grows hoarse and I start spitting up blood.
If Cavill will indeed act as an executive producer, we might be looking at a show that *gasp* respects its source material. This is genuinely exciting news.
I'm not going to hold my breath. I don't care that Henry is a huge fan. He was a huge Witcher fan, and look what happened. He left the show because the showrunners weren't faithful.
BertBert wrote: If Cavill will indeed act as an executive producer, we might be looking at a show that *gasp* respects its source material. This is genuinely exciting news.
Executive Producer means they sourced, secured, or provided financing.
I doubt it. Amazon would be providing the funding, GW are just lending the rights and presumably some level of oversight.
I'd be surprised if GW aren't getting royalties for it, and there could be some arrangement for initial investment. There could easily be a clause that the episodes be shared on Warhammer+, maybe delayed by X days or something like that, or maybe they can be purchased at a discount on Warhammer+, maybe Amazon get a % of royalties from Warhammer+ subscriptions depending on how well it does, or maybe there's no such agreement and it'll be exclusive to Amazon.
There's no way one Amazon series can kill off 40K. It might kill any hopes for more live action TV/films for the setting, at least for a while, but that's about it.
I estimate this film/series thing to be a flop, based on the existing televised material we have (ie everything being utter garbage except for Helsreach). Even Angels of Death was a disappointment in the end. More bolter pr0n for the kiddies
GaroRobe wrote: I'm not going to hold my breath. I don't care that Henry is a huge fan. He was a huge Witcher fan, and look what happened. He left the show because the showrunners weren't faithful.
I would almost feel sorry for Henry**, so enthusiastic for The Witcher and it was crap. I think there's a lot of potential for this to also be a flop.
**(if, ya know, he wasn't incredibly rich, incredibly handsome, incredibly muscular, and somehow still finds time to play video games and paint Warhammer crap)
Agreement Reached on Commercial Terms. Contracts yet to be signed.
Given Amazon get the Merch Rights, sounds like the Contract Signing may be all but a formality.
As ever Not An Expert, Almosf Certainly Waaaay More To It Than This Idiot Thinks.
It's basically an initial declaration of mutual interest, with a round of preliminary offers on both sides what they'd put on the table for further negotiations. That's not nothing, but it's also still at a stage where it could be cancelled pretty easily and without significant costs to either party. Contract negotiations is where the meat of the legal action will happen, especially negotiations about the licensing schemes, the way profits are split and so on. That can take quite a lot of time, mostly because ''Hollywood acounting'' is notorious for being somewhere between deliberately obscure and outright predatory. Look for news about GW bringing in a law firm that specializes in that kind of stuff as a sign that the negotiations have begun in earnest, probably around 3-6 months from now, when preliminary scouting for potentially interested actors, writers and staff has finished the first round.
Not sure what to make of this. It'll be good (if only in the short term) for GW but Amazon butchered Lord of the Rings and Wheel of Time by not really respecting the source material and trying to make their own thing rather than adapting the actual content.
This being said it'll have a decent budget and GW have been notoriously picky over their IP, so may have retained more control than other licensees do.
I'm going to throw up a little in my mouth by defending Amazon here. Amazon were essentially only granted the rights to produce a series based upon the Appendices at the back of LOTR. And that was further narrowed by allowing very limited or no reference to other published works of Tolkien and their estate.
Really, the studio had their hands tied, their mouths sewn shut and their eyes blinded. No wonder they produced trash.
As for the AiP. lots can go wrong before it goes right for any warhammer based production.
Notice that Amazon would be granted exclusive merchandising rights... makes it difficult for existing fan favourites to be tied to an Amazon exclusive production.
BertBert wrote: If Cavill will indeed act as an executive producer, we might be looking at a show that *gasp* respects its source material. This is genuinely exciting news.
Executive Producer means they sourced, secured, or provided financing.
Not necessarily: https://www.denofgeek.com/tv/what-actually-is-an-executive-producer/ it's used rather flexibly. Sometimes it can be used for someone who has creative input, as way of reflecting this. I would suggest that's more likely to be Cavill's role than anything on the funding side.
tauist wrote: I estimate this film/series thing to be a flop, based on the existing televised material we have (ie everything being utter garbage except for Helsreach). Even Angels of Death was a disappointment in the end.
I feel like live action 40k is doomed to failure because it will be near impossible to capture the feel of the universe without it coming across terrible. All the tongue in cheek stuff mixed in with the grim dark mixed in with many mediocre stories and a few good stories. I just struggle to see how it could turn out good when all that clashes with the realities of live action, but I'm happy to be proven wrong.
Lets hope they dont try to make marines into some kind of heroes.
Astartes should be a terrible and intimidating presence in the background, mostly to show scale and proportion in the setting.
Anyway, will be cool to see what they come up with, in a few years.
Not sure what to make of this. It'll be good (if only in the short term) for GW but Amazon butchered Lord of the Rings and Wheel of Time by not really respecting the source material and trying to make their own thing rather than adapting the actual content.
This being said it'll have a decent budget and GW have been notoriously picky over their IP, so may have retained more control than other licensees do.
I'm going to throw up a little in my mouth by defending Amazon here. Amazon were essentially only granted the rights to produce a series based upon the Appendices at the back of LOTR. And that was further narrowed by allowing very limited or no reference to other published works of Tolkien and their estate.
Really, the studio had their hands tied, their mouths sewn shut and their eyes blinded. No wonder they produced trash.
That's true but then don't try adapting a well belove and well supported IP with that limitation on what you can use.
Even noting that, you could have created something good with what's in the Appendices and building upon them. ROP is not that, it's riven through with bad characterisation, fan fic creations and god awful writing - for instance much of the first season's storyline hinges off someone jumping off a boat into the ocean dressing only in some light linens, hundreds if not thousands of miles away from land, then accidently bumping into the exact person the plot requires, in the middle of the bloody ocean, while not managing to die from exhaustation beforehand. Elves are cool but they're not able to swim for weeks on end in the open ocean. That's only the very tip of just poor poor writing.
GaroRobe wrote: I'm not going to hold my breath. I don't care that Henry is a huge fan. He was a huge Witcher fan, and look what happened. He left the show because the showrunners weren't faithful.
It is amazing how this has come to be accepted when there is not a lick of evidence that it actually happened.
Cavill left The Witcher because DC drove a truck load of money up to his house to do Superman instead, and then changed their minds leaving him with the truckload of money. May all my disappointing work engagements in life be as such.
HBO did amazing stuff like GOT 1-4 seasons and House of the Dragon and horrible stuff like GOT 6-8 seasons.
At this points its a wait and see. The Witcher Season 1 was not great but palatable, but it went downhill fast.
Ultimately people lose sight here that the shows are not made by whomever shows them.
The Boys was made by Sony Pictures for example, Amazon commissioned it. But Sony Pictures also made Wheel of Time for Amazon, and opinions on that seem more mixed.
Not sure what to make of this. It'll be good (if only in the short term) for GW but Amazon butchered Lord of the Rings and Wheel of Time by not really respecting the source material and trying to make their own thing rather than adapting the actual content.
This being said it'll have a decent budget and GW have been notoriously picky over their IP, so may have retained more control than other licensees do.
I'm going to throw up a little in my mouth by defending Amazon here. Amazon were essentially only granted the rights to produce a series based upon the Appendices at the back of LOTR. And that was further narrowed by allowing very limited or no reference to other published works of Tolkien and their estate.
Really, the studio had their hands tied, their mouths sewn shut and their eyes blinded. No wonder they produced trash.
It wasn't even trash though. I mean, I've not seen it, I may not like it, reaction has certainly been mixed, and some people seem to *really* hate it, but there have also been a large number of positive reviews too, and it did well enough to get a second season...
Honestly if a 40K series got the same response as that did, it'd be the biggest publicity coup for GW ever.
Also, the quality isn't dependant on how close they stay to the source material. You can make a good show which veers off wildly from the source material (Preacher, Battlestar Galactica reboot). You can make a bad show that sticks too closely to the source material.
And lets be honest, the source material really isn't *that* good. Most of Black Library's output is "fine" but it's not exactly Wheel of Time or Lord of the Rings.
Agreement Reached on Commercial Terms. Contracts yet to be signed.
Given Amazon get the Merch Rights, sounds like the Contract Signing may be all but a formality.
As ever Not An Expert, Almosf Certainly Waaaay More To It Than This Idiot Thinks.
It's basically an initial declaration of mutual interest, with a round of preliminary offers on both sides what they'd put on the table for further negotiations. That's not nothing, but it's also still at a stage where it could be cancelled pretty easily and without significant costs to either party. Contract negotiations is where the meat of the legal action will happen, especially negotiations about the licensing schemes, the way profits are split and so on. That can take quite a lot of time, mostly because ''Hollywood acounting'' is notorious for being somewhere between deliberately obscure and outright predatory. Look for news about GW bringing in a law firm that specializes in that kind of stuff as a sign that the negotiations have begun in earnest, probably around 3-6 months from now, when preliminary scouting for potentially interested actors, writers and staff has finished the first round.
Ehh, if they have an agreed term sheet it is generally a bit better off than that. Obviously nothings binding until signed though.
If I were GW I wouldn't actually be that concerned about the back end really. I'd be focusing more on Amazon's marketing commitment for the show. If it got anything like the push WOT or ROP got (imagine every parcel Amazon sent out for a month having Warhammer branded tape?) that's actually worth more to GW than the money from the show.
GaroRobe wrote: I'm not going to hold my breath. I don't care that Henry is a huge fan. He was a huge Witcher fan, and look what happened. He left the show because the showrunners weren't faithful.
It is amazing how this has come to be accepted when there is not a lick of evidence that it actually happened.
Cavill left The Witcher because DC drove a truck load of money up to his house to do Superman instead, and then changed their minds leaving him with the truckload of money. May all my disappointing work engagements in life be as such.
.
Not true, he never had a contract to return as Superman, that's why Gunn has managed to drop him so quickly. Even if he did, he could have worked around both of them at the same time, it's been done before and Netflix aren't as bound to releasing one season a year of their shows as traditional TV networks. His return to Superman and then getting dumped only a few months later is indicative of the shambles the DCEU is in currently, it's the kind of shambles that results in an actor without a contract announcing their return to a role, only to be dumped a month later.
We don't actually know why he left The Witcher, the idea that he was pissed off with the production/writing is based upon the fact that he's a massive Witcher fan, actively chased after the role and proposed himself to the showrunner when he wasn't being considered, repeatedly said he'd be willing to do 10 seasons of The Witcher before the release of the second season, repeatedly stated that during production he was constantly giving advice on how the character actually should be protrayed (showing his commitment) and never gave any indication that he was looking to only do the role temporarily. People have just added that history of behaviour and beliefs, to the increasingly divergent second season which got mixed reception, reports that writers don't actually like the source material and have made a decent theory as to why he suddenly left a series in a very contradictory way to all his previous behaviour and statements.
Agreement Reached on Commercial Terms. Contracts yet to be signed.
Given Amazon get the Merch Rights, sounds like the Contract Signing may be all but a formality.
As ever Not An Expert, Almosf Certainly Waaaay More To It Than This Idiot Thinks.
It's basically an initial declaration of mutual interest, with a round of preliminary offers on both sides what they'd put on the table for further negotiations. That's not nothing, but it's also still at a stage where it could be cancelled pretty easily and without significant costs to either party. Contract negotiations is where the meat of the legal action will happen, especially negotiations about the licensing schemes, the way profits are split and so on. That can take quite a lot of time, mostly because ''Hollywood acounting'' is notorious for being somewhere between deliberately obscure and outright predatory. Look for news about GW bringing in a law firm that specializes in that kind of stuff as a sign that the negotiations have begun in earnest, probably around 3-6 months from now, when preliminary scouting for potentially interested actors, writers and staff has finished the first round.
Ehh, if they have an agreed term sheet it is generally a bit better off than that. Obviously nothings binding until signed though.
If I were GW I wouldn't actually be that concerned about the back end really. I'd be focusing more on Amazon's marketing commitment for the show. If it got anything like the push WOT or ROP got (imagine every parcel Amazon sent out for a month having Warhammer branded tape?) that's actually worth more to GW than the money from the show.
To add to the intrigue? Warhammer Community just confirmed the project, and that Mr Cavill is Executive Producing and starring.
Now to my idiot mind (remember. Not an expert) that suggests a specific production has been worked on, agreed and now it’s just hammering out the legal side.
Mr. Burning wrote: Really, the studio had their hands tied, their mouths sewn shut and their eyes blinded. No wonder they produced trash.
Nah, they produced trash because they wrote Marvel (badly) instead of Tolkien. They get no excuses for that.
Londinium wrote: His return to Superman and then getting dumped only a few months later is indicative of the shambles the DCEU is in currently, it's the kind of shambles that results in an actor without a contract announcing their return to a role, only to be dumped a month later.
I'm 99% sure he had a signed contract when the story went public. WB simply chose to pay the break fee over forging ahead with a project they didn't want to make.
BertBert wrote: If Cavill will indeed act as an executive producer, we might be looking at a show that *gasp* respects its source material. This is genuinely exciting news.
Executive Producer means they sourced, secured, or provided financing.
"In films, the executive producer generally contributes to the film's budget and their involvement depends on the project, with some simply securing funds and others being involved in the filmmaking process."
Guess it depends on the details of the contract then. Given the context, I don't see why Cavill would be involved in the financial aspect though. As an outspoken fan of the setting he is much more likely to have some sort of creative oversight.
I think this will be a small scale detective 6 episode show to start with. It's testing the waters and I suspect won't have a comparatively huge budget behind it.
That's also the smart way to go, making it all about Space Marines would be a mistake.
Londinium wrote: His return to Superman and then getting dumped only a few months later is indicative of the shambles the DCEU is in currently, it's the kind of shambles that results in an actor without a contract announcing their return to a role, only to be dumped a month later.
I'm 99% sure he had a signed contract when the story went public. WB simply chose to pay the break fee over forging ahead with a project they didn't want to make.
Anway back onto Warhammer, the Warhammer Community article has Cavill saying this, which seems like he's been VERY involved in all aspects of it. Makes me somewhat optimistic:
“I have loved Warhammer since I was boy, making this moment truly special for me. The opportunity to shepherd this cinematic universe from its inception is quite the honour and the responsibility,” said Henry Cavill. “I couldn’t be more grateful for all the hard work put in by Vertigo, Amazon and Games Workshop to make this happen. One step closer to making a nigh-on lifelong dream come true.”
“It’s great news and we’re absolutely thrilled; we’re working with a fantastic triumvirate in Henry, Vertigo, and Amazon. Henry’s well-known love of Warhammer 40,000—and his passion as a world-builder and storyteller—will serve us all well in the coming years. Finally, Warhammer will make it to the screen as the fans have hoped, and as they deserve. Exciting times!” said Andy Smillie, creative director of GAW.
Vertigo Entertainment’s Roy Lee and Natalie Viscuso (Barbarian, The Lego franchise, the It films, The Departed) partnered with Henry Cavill early on to secure the coveted IP and deliver it to Amazon Studios. Vertigo will executive produce with Cavill and GAW’s Andy Smillie and Max Bottrill alongside Amazon Studios.
If it's not Eisenhorn, I'd be very surprised. It's basically tailormade for a TV based introduction to the GW universe. Before anyone says it - no they're not going to adapt the Horus Heresy, let's not even go there.
Interesting also that it seems like Frank Spotnitz and Big Light Productions aren't involved anymore. I assume they either failed to get the project progressing far enough or Cavill/Vertigo rocked up and that combination was too good for GW to pass up and they switched partners.
GaroRobe wrote: I'm not going to hold my breath. I don't care that Henry is a huge fan. He was a huge Witcher fan, and look what happened. He left the show because the showrunners weren't faithful.
It is amazing how this has come to be accepted when there is not a lick of evidence that it actually happened.
Cavill left The Witcher because DC drove a truck load of money up to his house to do Superman instead, and then changed their minds leaving him with the truckload of money. May all my disappointing work engagements in life be as such.
Except Henry wasn't meant to cameo in Black Adam. It was originally meant to be a headless cameo, like in Shazam. Dwayne pushed for an actual appearance. There was no reason for Henry to leave the Witcher solely for Superman. There wasn't even a Man of Steel 2 script written yet, so it's not like he needed to commit to one project over the other.
My main take away here is that Mr Cavill played a role in obtaining the rights. That’s something important to note, as it may translate to him and Vertigo having the rights, and Amazon fronting cash and marketing stuffs?
Londinium wrote: https://thedirect.com/article/henry-cavill-superman-contract-dc-new he signed a deal for a cameo in another movie, I won't mention what it is, in case it spoils people. He wasn't under contract for a hypothetical Man of Steel 2. It was all very weird.
Huh, you might be right and there was no actual contract beyond the cameo one. That is weird.
I hope that his status as an executive producer will help the show stay on focus and consistent with the core material. Not everything that Amazon produces is garbage so there is hope.
warboss wrote: I hope that his status as an executive producer will help the show stay on focus and consistent with the core material. Not everything that Amazon produces is garbage so there is hope.
GW are also pretty hot on keeping on top of the presentation of the lore. I think its one reason some bigger studios in video games don't sign with them for the IP, because GW 100% would be breathing down their necks the whole time. Same reason we've likely never seen a Hollywood spacemarines film. GW know that a big part of the draw of their core business is the lore and that if they abuse that too much it will break and that destroys a huge area of returning customers and attracting new customers.
Olthannon wrote: Vin Diesel is a massive 40k fan, hopefully he will be in it as well.
Vin D is definitely a nerd, but I'm not sure if it's official he's a 40k fan. There was a rumor he tried to pay to close a GW store down for a private game but not sure if that' true.
Ansel Elgort is a big 40k fan, and I think he even placed in a Golden Demon once (but since there's a lot of allegations around him, I don't think he's getting cast much these days).
One of the dwarves in Peter Jackson's the Hobbit also does warhammer, since they made a huge community post during the second movie about it.
I know Henry has made it clear he wants to play a custodes, but I can't imagine we'll ever see them in live action
warboss wrote: I hope that his status as an executive producer will help the show stay on focus and consistent with the core material. Not everything that Amazon produces is garbage so there is hope.
GW are also pretty hot on keeping on top of the presentation of the lore. I think its one reason some bigger studios in video games don't sign with them for the IP, because GW 100% would be breathing down their necks the whole time. Same reason we've likely never seen a Hollywood spacemarines film. GW know that a big part of the draw of their core business is the lore and that if they abuse that too much it will break and that destroys a huge area of returning customers and attracting new customers.
Hence my theory regarding Warhammer+. A sort of Expo to demonstrate Acceptable Use. Also a way for GW to actually figure out what they feel is acceptable and presentable.
Adding deeper “information”, once upon a time I was told by an unreliable source that GW had been approached in the past, but always wanted to keep Marketing Rights, scotching any interest quite quickly. Almost certainly not true, but putting it out there in case others might be able to corroborate or even confirm.
Olthannon wrote: Vin Diesel is a massive 40k fan, hopefully he will be in it as well.
Is the logo specific to any Imperial subfaction there or is that just a cool stylised Imperial Eagle?
I think it's quite specifically the variant that is associated with the loyalist side in the heresy:
It's also associated with the Custodes - it's the pre-Heresy 'Palatine' Aquila that only the Custodes and the Emperors Children were allowed to wear iirc.
Londinium wrote: https://thedirect.com/article/henry-cavill-superman-contract-dc-new he signed a deal for a cameo in another movie, I won't mention what it is, in case it spoils people. He wasn't under contract for a hypothetical Man of Steel 2. It was all very weird.
Huh, you might be right and there was no actual contract beyond the cameo one. That is weird.
Hence my theory regarding Warhammer+. A sort of Expo to demonstrate Acceptable Use. Also a way for GW to actually figure out what they feel is acceptable and presentable.
What's telling about WH+ though is that, as far as I can tell, everything they've made for it has been an original story. No adaptations. It's why I think this is likely to be an original work, rather than Eisenhorn.
Because "Eisenhorn" isn't going to sell the show to anyone that wouldn't otherwise watch it. You can tell a similar story if you want, but you may as well write something actually original for TV, and then you cut out large swathes of the "it needs to be closer to the source material" complaining.
Having Cavill on board makes that more likely to me - he knows the IP enough to know that reducing those sort of issues would be "helpful".
Olthannon wrote: Vin Diesel is a massive 40k fan, hopefully he will be in it as well.
Is the logo specific to any Imperial subfaction there or is that just a cool stylised Imperial Eagle?
I think it's quite specifically the variant that is associated with the loyalist side in the heresy:
It's also associated with the Custodes - it's the pre-Heresy 'Palatine' Aquila that only the Custodes and the Emperors Children were allowed to wear iirc.
Take a look at the right hand side of the logo. It's all battered and broken. I have a bad feeling we'll be getting something tied to Horus Hearsay.
His Master's Voice wrote: I wouldn't read too much into the logo. It's going to take a while before any assets are created specifically for the project itself.
Exactly. There's precisely no chance that the first live action series we're getting will be Horus Heresy era stuff, it's too wide, too hard to adapt, too confusing for casuals, doesn't match the '40k' what most video gamers and people who vaguely know about Warhammer have experienced.
Henry Cavill's instagram post on the matter did state 'a Warhammer Cinematic Universe' though, so there's maybe the chance years down the line. It would be far better suited to an animated adaption mind.
For a first-time offer on a mainstream platform they will have to play to their strengths and core concepts, which are Space Marines and bombastic battle scenes.
HH is the prime backdrop for this concept and has the primarchs intact, who provide the necessary korean boy band material, drama and intrigue to keep the series going. It's basically tailor-made for this format.
BertBert wrote: For a first-time offer on a mainstream platform they will have to play to their strengths and core concepts, which are Space Marines and bombastic battle scenes.
HH is the prime backdrop for this concept and has the primarchs intact, who provide the necessary korean boy band material, drama and intrigue to keep the series going. It's basically tailor-made for this format.
I disagree.
Necromunda as a setting is far more relatable.
You get the hell scape of 40K in one easy package, with limited amounts of the more fantastical elements.
HH is a brother on brother bloodbath, that's not good feels. Space Marines saving a Guard army from xenos or chaos is good feels and relatable. Maybe with an inquisitorial scheme subplot so it's not just a 12 hour battle report.
You get the hell scape of 40K in one easy package, with limited amounts of the more fantastical elements.
I don't disagree that Necromunda could make for a compelling story, but not as an introduction of 40k to a new mainstream audience. I'd like to see it, but I don't believe it will happen.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: I think I’ve read one Eisenhorn book, and don’t really remember it that well. So those more versed in those specific stories can say more.
Eisenhorn might be OK book, but it's crap 40K. So is pretty much anything Abnett writes, though. He doesn't give a damn about lore and does his own thing, which is fine if taken in isolation but if you want to make more than one 40K show, the dissonance would be massive. Lightsabers anyone? Magic language stronger than chaos gods anyone can use? Perpetuals? Also, Abnett was the dude who wrote the script for Ultramarines the movie and frankly, the script was weakest part of this which is really an accomplishment given the rest was a burning pile of gak
Cain would be a much better idea, and funnily enough, Cavill would make a much better Cain than an Inquisitor any day.
I wish they picked something by Peter Fehervari but alas, that's proper grimdark with little grimdumb and GW hates that these days...
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I feel like live action 40k is doomed to failure because it will be near impossible to capture the feel of the universe without it coming across terrible
Astartes managed to do that and that was one dude project, sooo...
Also, that's why I think they should pick Cain. Enough humor to offset grimdarkiness and a rather relatable cast of characters.
lord_blackfang wrote: HH is a brother on brother bloodbath, that's not good feels. Space Marines saving a Guard army from xenos or chaos is good feels and relatable. Maybe with an inquisitorial scheme subplot so it's not just a 12 hour battle report.
The way licensed properties usually go, we'll end up with Horsey Hearsay, a whimsical romantic comedy of errors in the social circles of horseracing pundits and bookmakers
Given they’ve mentioned a Cinematic Universe? Kind of do it like Marvel’s lead in to Infinity War.
Use something akin to Necromunda to introduce where mankind is up to. Basically any Hive World will do. Ideally invent one, so Us Nerds will never know whether the Imperium will win.
First one or two have Cult activity being the focus. Then escalate, movie by movie, until you get A Honking Geet Battle Movie.
What each movie should or shouldn’t contain I’ll leave to the individual. Just….save the Astartes for their true shock value.
lord_blackfang wrote: HH is a brother on brother bloodbath, that's not good feels. Space Marines saving a Guard army from xenos or chaos is good feels and relatable. Maybe with an inquisitorial scheme subplot so it's not just a 12 hour battle report.
lord_blackfang wrote: HH is a brother on brother bloodbath, that's not good feels. Space Marines saving a Guard army from xenos or chaos is good feels and relatable. Maybe with an inquisitorial scheme subplot so it's not just a 12 hour battle report.
How is anything 40k “good feels and relatable“?
An Imperial Guard focused war movie would be relatable to a certain extent...certainly wouldn't be good feels mind.
Genoside07 wrote: I want to be hopeful, but Amazon has killed way too many licensed properties, I don't want a teenage rom-com set in the 40k universe where a Tau and Ogryn fall in love. Henry Cavill was part of the attraction for Witcher and it sounded like he tried to keep it aligned with the lore but it ends with what the studio wants.
You are going to have a gender-fluid rom-com. Fixed that for you.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I feel like live action 40k is doomed to failure because it will be near impossible to capture the feel of the universe without it coming across terrible
Astartes managed to do that and that was one dude project, sooo...
You talking about the animated thing?
You'll note my post that you quoted says "live action". I think animated stuff can get away with a lot more. Live action adds a layer that makes it hard to blend the absurd with the real.
lord_blackfang wrote: HH is a brother on brother bloodbath, that's not good feels. Space Marines saving a Guard army from xenos or chaos is good feels and relatable. Maybe with an inquisitorial scheme subplot so it's not just a 12 hour battle report.
lord_blackfang wrote: HH is a brother on brother bloodbath, that's not good feels. Space Marines saving a Guard army from xenos or chaos is good feels and relatable. Maybe with an inquisitorial scheme subplot so it's not just a 12 hour battle report.
How is anything 40k “good feels and relatable“?
An Imperial Guard focused war movie would be relatable to a certain extent...certainly wouldn't be good feels mind.
I've always wanted them to do a Band of Brothers style Gaunts Ghosts series. I really hope it isn't the Horus Heresy. Not to start with at any rate.
lord_blackfang wrote: HH is a brother on brother bloodbath, that's not good feels. Space Marines saving a Guard army from xenos or chaos is good feels and relatable. Maybe with an inquisitorial scheme subplot so it's not just a 12 hour battle report.
How is anything 40k “good feels and relatable“?
Triumph of the human spirit.
Despite the Imperium, that then often crushes said human spirit.
Maybe if you are a fan of Brazil style bureaucracy its great?
A lot of it remains the reaction to the destruction of communities done by governments in the 80's. Hollywood doesn't seem to run with that oddly. I didn't see much of Constantine but I don't remember it having the backdrop of the convulsions in 80's London.
warboss wrote: I hope that his status as an executive producer will help the show stay on focus and consistent with the core material. Not everything that Amazon produces is garbage so there is hope.
GW are also pretty hot on keeping on top of the presentation of the lore. I think its one reason some bigger studios in video games don't sign with them for the IP, because GW 100% would be breathing down their necks the whole time. Same reason we've likely never seen a Hollywood spacemarines film. GW know that a big part of the draw of their core business is the lore and that if they abuse that too much it will break and that destroys a huge area of returning customers and attracting new customers.
Hence my theory regarding Warhammer+. A sort of Expo to demonstrate Acceptable Use. Also a way for GW to actually figure out what they feel is acceptable and presentable.
Adding deeper “information”, once upon a time I was told by an unreliable source that GW had been approached in the past, but always wanted to keep Marketing Rights, scotching any interest quite quickly. Almost certainly not true, but putting it out there in case others might be able to corroborate or even confirm.
I think the thing is places like Hollywood like to basically get everything in the contract on their terms. There's more than a few horror stories of authors and such signing big contracts and then finding that they are basically out of the loop and have almost no influence over what's being made with their stuff till the contract is over. GW I think are a touch more experienced plus their main income is healthy, they don't "need" Hollywood.
So they can afford to be picky. Plus they know at the end of the day a film or such is an injection of money not a steady income from their models and the last thing they want to do is harm their model income. Especially as so much of the manufacture and production and design is all in-house with their own staff in the UK so they can't just downscale or such.
Warhammer+ was very much GW investing as much as they could justify to create shows as a showcase. Plus also viewer numbers and other data that they've harvested from it which can be easily used to not just showcase what kind of show you can make with their stuff; but also what kind of market reception there is. I'm sure there are many boards with executives worried about doing a grim-dark setting and that it would get a hostile reception or not enough reception and all. So having stuff that you can show off that works is a big boon.
Also stuff like JoyToy, MacFarlane etc. All proof positive tie-in merch will sell. And let’s be brutally honest, that’s where movie properties make the really big bucks. Has been ever since Kenner and Star Wars.
So they can afford to be picky. Plus they know at the end of the day a film or such is an injection of money not a steady income from their models and the last thing they want to do is harm their model income. Especially as so much of the manufacture and production and design is all in-house with their own staff in the UK so they can't just downscale or such.
I can't imagine anything being so bad it harmed the model income though. I'm not sure that's possible unless there's some kind of scandal around the production. Either it's true to the source material and a hit, in which case it helps them. It's true to the source material and not a hit, in which case we all just move on with our lives (no-one who is currently a 40K fan is going to give up on playing it because they made a bad TV show.)
Or on the other hand, it goes in a weird, not true to the source material direction and fails, in which case again, the source material stays the same and everyone just ignores it. Or it isn't true to the source material and is a huge hit, in which case I'd expect the source material to move in the direction of the show. And in that case, they might lose some existing fans, but they'll gain far more.
Had the Amazon LotR series been a bigger hit, you can bet more copies of the books would have been sold that year than normal. It had a mixed response, but I'd bet book sales are still up a little. But even if it had been a disaster (or y'know, even if you think it *was* a disaster), book sales wouldn't have actually gone down on the baseline. Indeed, all the "it's really bad because it's not true to the source material" stuff would have probably made them go up regardless.
So they can afford to be picky. Plus they know at the end of the day a film or such is an injection of money not a steady income from their models and the last thing they want to do is harm their model income. Especially as so much of the manufacture and production and design is all in-house with their own staff in the UK so they can't just downscale or such.
I can't imagine anything being so bad it harmed the model income though. I'm not sure that's possible unless there's some kind of scandal around the production. Either it's true to the source material and a hit, in which case it helps them. It's true to the source material and not a hit, in which case we all just move on with our lives (no-one who is currently a 40K fan is going to give up on playing it because they made a bad TV show.)
Or on the other hand, it goes in a weird, not true to the source material direction and fails, in which case again, the source material stays the same and everyone just ignores it. Or it isn't true to the source material and is a huge hit, in which case I'd expect the source material to move in the direction of the show. And in that case, they might lose some existing fans, but they'll gain far more.
Had the Amazon LotR series been a bigger hit, you can bet more copies of the books would have been sold that year than normal. It had a mixed response, but I'd bet book sales are still up a little. But even if it had been a disaster (or y'know, even if you think it *was* a disaster), book sales wouldn't have actually gone down on the baseline. Indeed, all the "it's really bad because it's not true to the source material" stuff would have probably made them go up regardless.
I think the thing is GW wants to market out their IP and part of that is retaining a strong hold over what that IP is. IF they allow it to get too watered down it no longer links up with the other stuff they are marketing.
Everything GW does wants to fuel their core business in some form. If you make a super casual "we just got the names right and that's about it" hollywood film then the fans of that might not translate into fans of miniatures or BL books or such. Sure there'd be an upswing of sales, but it might not be as good as if the film were faithful to the source material.
Also lets not forget GW are passionate staff in many of their roles. They like as not want to make sure what's made with their stuff is faithful because its "their" stuff. The same way and author wants their book to be faithfully retold and such.
GW just don't want something like the BBC America Discworld series to happen; which can so easily happen when you just sign over rights to producers. GW want a certain something when they sell out their IP and its not just the royalties and marketing opportunities.
deano2099 wrote: I dunno, GW themselves put out the series of YA books, and it was only the fans that got angry about the IP being watered down.
Yeah but there's a difference between adjusting some parts of the story to present to a different age group* and outright changing the entire story so that Eisenhorn is a transvestite ork down on his luck with gambling debts.
*which lets face it mostly means cutting out some of the gore and blood in fights and a few mature words.
Well yeah, like I say, for that reason I don't see them making a show based off any existing story in the first place. There's no need to, and then you don't face all the criticism about changing it too much. You just make the transvestite ork series in the first place and call it something else.
lord_blackfang wrote: The worst part of all this will be weeks and weeks of slowpokes reposting it online the moment they find out.
It was posted like ten times on r/40klore so far. I think the worst part is all the theory videos and "BTS breakdowns" that 40k channels will do in the years leading up to the show
Flinty wrote: To be honest I would be happy with something like this
Yes...YES! SOLD!
Have the entire production be crappy props, kids in ill-fitting costumes, and Henry dressed up perfectly as an Inquistor trying to figure out what Chaos power did this to the universe...
Tsagualsa wrote: Stick some sideburns on Cavill, then stick sideburns on the sideburns and have him play Ciaphas Cain It's perfect for episodic TV, you can have Amberley off-screen narrate exposition, the stories in general are a bit more humorous than 'ra ra genocide ra fundamentalism', Cains frequent travels allow for anything from large plots to 'monster of the week' style stories, and because he meets a lot of people and is a womanizer you can have your diversity and romance if you need them. Also, Cain often acts as a exposition dump to his acquaintances, so you have another opportunity to introduce the lore that's necessary for the episode without messing up the timing too much.
Cavill does a good straight face, so honestly I like this idea.
I'm cautiously optimistic. At least there's involvement from a relatively major player that does know the Universe well enough that it shouldn't stray too far, and GW is often pretty good at keeping the IP on track in licensed media.
Hoping for a relatively human centric tale, Guard/Arbites/Inquisitor or similar, as it's relatable to an audience that is not familiar with the lore (sci-fi soldiers in space with aliens) - slight touch of Astartes later on, so long as they don't show up and win at the end, maybe GC or Chaos as the 'bad guys' to keep it a bit more human overall, and Aliens or Daemons and Cults are common enough TV things that it'll be understandable to the uninitiated. Really it needs to be approachable to an audience unfamiliar with WH40K, while providing enough exposition to bring them in, and also true to the lore as much as possible so fans will be interested too.
If it ends up as a meme and trope filled ball of gak, I'll be disappointed. Either way, no matter what happens the most vocal will get their undergarments in a twist over something - so prep for a steady stream of complaints about something that doesn't even exist yet.
lord_blackfang wrote: HH is a brother on brother bloodbath, that's not good feels. Space Marines saving a Guard army from xenos or chaos is good feels and relatable. Maybe with an inquisitorial scheme subplot so it's not just a 12 hour battle report.
How is anything 40k “good feels and relatable“?
Triumph of the human spirit.
Despite the Imperium, that then often crushes said human spirit.
Maybe if you are a fan of Brazil style bureaucracy its great?
A lot of it remains the reaction to the destruction of communities done by governments in the 80's. Hollywood doesn't seem to run with that oddly. I didn't see much of Constantine but I don't remember it having the backdrop of the convulsions in 80's London.
A “there are no good guys as per official GW” Grimdark 40k Movie that brings the satirical “there is only war” British IP to mainstream international audiences…. What could possibly go wrong?
This thread has already proven a number of folks have ignored the GW official statement that there are no goodies in 40K and see the Imperium, or at least elements of it, as “the heroes” of the story. I mean comparing anything 40k to a Band of Brothers style show seems incredibly out of sync with actual lore.
Much as I like Cavill I can not see this project ending up as anything other than like the World of Warcraft movie… or perhaps the Mutant Chronicles movie.
Make it a Flesh Eater show in which most of the story is standard Space Marine heroics, but with the occasional casual canibalism. Like saving a group of civilians from a bunch of Orks only to eat the civilians after the fight because they were hungry.
warboss wrote: I hope that his status as an executive producer will help the show stay on focus and consistent with the core material. Not everything that Amazon produces is garbage so there is hope.
GW are also pretty hot on keeping on top of the presentation of the lore. I think its one reason some bigger studios in video games don't sign with them for the IP, because GW 100% would be breathing down their necks the whole time. Same reason we've likely never seen a Hollywood spacemarines film. GW know that a big part of the draw of their core business is the lore and that if they abuse that too much it will break and that destroys a huge area of returning customers and attracting new customers.
I hope that remains true under his guidance as an executive producer. I've been disappointed by previously on point corporations that suddenly don't care about the quality of their own IP (most recently with the MCU and LOTR) so I'm probably going to keep a "believe it when I see it" approach to the whole thing.
This will be a disaster if they try a play out a major story line with the big characters like the primarchs. They could do the HH but need to commit to a huge a mount of programming.
I’d suspect that they will do the usual to make the story accessible to non 40K fans and make it about ultramarines.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Dark angels have a good wrapper for a bigger story. There is a secret past and they are hunting down mysterious traitors for undisclosed reasons. Lots to play with there.
However if they go for one of the established legions they are going to have to explain the difference between primaris and old marine, yawn.
I'm sure they aren't going to try and tell some massive storyline with vast battles and legions and marines and whole worlds burned and such.
I think if people really want an idea of what kind of story they'll get I'd look at Hammer and Bolter stories or even the recent Inquisition one. Small stories and events that flesh out the world in small steps.
Sure we are unlikely to get any major battles for a time, but there's a huge wealth that GW and Amazon can make that isn't huge battlefields.
Also I think some people need to remember that a grim dark setting isn't a literal hellscape every single place in the setting. There are peaceful worlds; places where Chaos is a boogyman word; there are characters who do good things and who are heroes ;there are grey characters who are heroes but do some nasty things; there are twisted madmen. There's everything in the setting.
Sometimes the grim dark element is strong, sometimes its weaker, sometimes its just that the hero won a great victory but that ultimately they've not touched the surface of all the battles that need winning to turn the tide
But Warhammer+ is also for heavily enfranchised players. This needs to anchor whatever storyline it does into the grand setting for people who don't know what the setting is.
lord_blackfang wrote: But Warhammer+ is also for heavily enfranchised players. This needs to anchor whatever storyline it does into the grand setting for people who don't know what the setting is.
What you describe is both a meaningless and an impossible objective. The setting is too vast.
This will anchor people into the concept of the Imperium. There will be no marines, primarchs, xenos, etc. except as cameos or referential easter eggs.
It will likely be focused on Space Marines with Xenos depicted as villain's so I have no interest in watching racially biased propaganda from the Imperium.
If the show is a reskin of Gilligan's Island meets Lost in Space then the show will be amazing.
Galas wrote: Just give me some animated stuff with the quality of Riot's Arcane for warhammer.
I mean, I would love that too, but you realize the sheer amount of effort, money and talent they needed to pour for Arcane to be how it is now, right?
6 years , 100 million dollars.
The worst part was asking the French to do it. But one has to be willing to make sacrifices to achieve true greatness.
France actually has quite a well supported animation industry. At least way better than the USA who mostly abandoned it for either CGI or those "adult" shows like Southpark.
NAVARRO wrote: I think he would do a great Votann series... We really need more lore XD
This! Very much this!
I think they will start with a smaller, tightly set story with the background suggested around it for an initial series and then expand into the larger themes/battles later. An inquisitor would be useful- can bump into pretty much anything so individual xenos/hereticsand imperial factions could pop up as it goes.
Tyran wrote: FYI Arcane is CGI. Enhanced with 2D animation for effects and textures, but the models and movement are CGI.
It's complicated, as it's kinda both, that's why they had both a 3d team and a 2d team working in tandem for it.
It's kind of the reason why it looks so damn good, too.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Galas wrote: I know, I know. France has the strongest animation and comic book scene of all of europe.
Personally, I have always loved Wakfu , Kirikou and the Sorceress and Gandahar.
Yeah, me too. And Fortiche did also the biggest smash hit video clips from Riot (hell, Pop/Stars only happened because there was a stop in the production of Arcane). So much so that whenever I think of Riot I think about them as a music studio.
Platuan4th wrote: GW has been trying to make Eisenhorn for 5+ years, even mentioning it again this year. I highly doubt they're just going to abandon that.
Not sure I agree.
Developing TV and Movies is seemingly neither easy, nor cheap. This deal? It’s not GW fronting the cash from what we’ve heard, but a long established and successful production company, a Hollywood A-Lister and Amazon. And it’s those same parties taking on the process of going from signed contract to screen.
In a standard crap analogy, it’s like saying you want to landscape your garden, and staring the planning. And along the planning route, a Gardening Company offer not only to do the landscaping, but give you scads of cash for doing so.
Platuan4th wrote: GW has been trying to make Eisenhorn for 5+ years, even mentioning it again this year. I highly doubt they're just going to abandon that.
Not sure I agree.
Developing TV and Movies is seemingly neither easy, nor cheap. This deal? It’s not GW fronting the cash from what we’ve heard, but a long established and successful production company, a Hollywood A-Lister and Amazon. And it’s those same parties taking on the process of going from signed contract to screen.
In a standard crap analogy, it’s like saying you want to landscape your garden, and staring the planning. And along the planning route, a Gardening Company offer not only to do the landscaping, but give you scads of cash for doing so.
The last mention GW made of Eisenhorn was specifically about having found an LA based agency(Vertigo is based in LA) and that "Eisenhorn is in development and the subject of discussions with potential distribution partners. "
It'd be aces if Cavill was Ollanius Pius, the Eternal Hero of Mankind...which is a kind of interesting way IMO to introduce the 40kverse to mainstream audiences.
Platuan4th wrote: GW has been trying to make Eisenhorn for 5+ years, even mentioning it again this year. I highly doubt they're just going to abandon that.
Not sure I agree.
Developing TV and Movies is seemingly neither easy, nor cheap. This deal? It’s not GW fronting the cash from what we’ve heard, but a long established and successful production company, a Hollywood A-Lister and Amazon. And it’s those same parties taking on the process of going from signed contract to screen.
In a standard crap analogy, it’s like saying you want to landscape your garden, and staring the planning. And along the planning route, a Gardening Company offer not only to do the landscaping, but give you scads of cash for doing so.
The last mention GW made of Eisenhorn was specifically about having found an LA based agency(Vertigo is based in LA) and that "Eisenhorn is in development and the subject of discussions with potential distribution partners. "
Amazon commissions shows, yes, but more importantly, they are a distribution partner.
It'd definitely make sense for this to be an Eisenhorn show to start with then, as Cavill specifically thanked Vertigo in his statement on the subject.
Yeah… I have to be honest, 40K does not inspire me to admire human spirit. This is an example of that mixed messaging from GW that I was talking about.
I do not think that Amazon is in any danger to do literal Nazi propaganda by accident - you can have a lot of criticism for much of their fiction, but being uncritical of fascist is not exactly among them.
That being said, adapting any of the 'serious' 40k stories is a recipe for disaster, for a TV show or a movie you need to adopt one of the more light-hearted/satiric/comedic stories, or else the average viewer might miss the part about there being no good guys in the universe, and especially not in the Imperium. The last thing the hobby needs is an influx of kinda-non-ironic-in-an-ironic-way ''I'm not a nazi but you have to hand it to them...'' edgy guys that missed the point of the joke.
I can't help but feel the single line of "there's no good guys" gets so grossly overblown in online discussions. Because if you crack open any of the BL books there are good, bad, grey, crazy characters all over the place.
There are characters who do the good thing every day; there are characters who do the good thing and get twisted by chaos to do bad things in the name of good; there are Saturday morning cartoon evils who likely have moustaches to twizzle; there's subtle evil in that your good character is doing good things but that
a) Ultimately its a drop of good against the ocean of bad
b) They did the whole thing using servitor sand cogitators which are the bodies and minds of slaved people/cloned people. etc...
If I were them I'd use The Walking Dead as a baseplate in terms of seriousness in a "comic book" setting. A good way to make it suitably dramatic, dark and repeatedly brutal.
Again I think a detective style show would be the best thing to do. That's a good way to draw the audience regardless of the source material.
Overread wrote: I can't help but feel the single line of "there's no good guys" gets so grossly overblown in online discussions.
Y'think?
It's honestly suffocating. Endlessly trotted out by those who lack nuance or a shred of reading comprehension skills for the 40k material that already exists showing clear examples of heroes and people doing good.
"Nu-uh! GW said there are no good guys, so that means everyone is a super-duper-evil person."
Overread wrote: I can't help but feel the single line of "there's no good guys" gets so grossly overblown in online discussions.
Y'think?
It's honestly suffocating.
I think it just shows how many people read just the rulebook and codex for armies they collect and remember a few choice lines and impressions and then never actually dive into BL books and such. Whcih is totally fair I didn't read any either for a very very long time. It's why I always say that the codex format is amazing because when lore is optional and when lore costs money to buy into; gamers/hobbyists/modellers/etc... will often prioritize a model over a book. Which is totally fair because that's what got them into the hobby; which is why the codex needs lore as well to at least tickle the interest in the lore side.
But yeah its like the whole "Page 5" thing with Warmachine. Simple, clear statements that people repeat and blow into insane proportions very quickly.
I actually also wonder if the whole "there are no good people" is a carry over from those with a DnD background where morality is a defined trait and a fixed value. So "good" characters are pure good with not a shred of bad in them. So GW having "no good characters" is like its "missing" a whole alignment trait. When in reality its more that Warhammer just doesn't use a morality chart for characters and thus most are "realistic" in that they are shades of grey from almost pure good to pure evil.
I actually also wonder if the whole "there are no good people" is a carry over from those with a DnD background where morality is a defined trait and a fixed value. So "good" characters are pure good with not a shred of bad in them. So GW having "no good characters" is like its "missing" a whole alignment trait. When in reality its more that Warhammer just doesn't use a morality chart for characters and thus most are "realistic" in that they are shades of grey from almost pure good to pure evil.
In my understanding ''no good guys'' is supposed to mean that even the characters that act well-intentioned, in an altruistic way and so on still live and die under the central premises of the universe and thus have to, sooner or later, commit acts that we'd deem evil - from our vantage point, of course - out of sheer necessity. In warhammer, contrary to the real world, there are actual witches, actual demons and so on, and sometimes you actually, really have to burn a witch, or execute genestealer-infected children or commit any other number of horrendous acts because the alternative would ultimately be even worse. The Imperium as a whole, and especially the more warlike sub-organisations, have taken ''Dehumanize yourself and face to bloodshed'' as their guiding motive, and in some cases quite literally: by our standards, a Marine is a surgically neutered, literally brainwashed child soldier pumped up on growth hormones, combat drugs and religious fanaticism. That may all be necessary to have a chance against the slavering hordes of aliens and monsters that want to do unspeakable things to humanity, but it's a horrible fate in itself. Sweeping all that totally under the rug and just have 'awesome' and 'epic' action marines is what removes nuance from the setting: not every story needs to be introspective angsting about the human condition in an inhuman world, but the setting contains more than bolter-porn.
There are characters who do the good thing every day; there are characters who do the good thing and get twisted by chaos to do bad things in the name of good; there are Saturday morning cartoon evils who likely have moustaches to twizzle; there's subtle evil in that your good character is doing good things but that
a) Ultimately its a drop of good against the ocean of bad
b) They did the whole thing using servitor sand cogitators which are the bodies and minds of slaved people/cloned people. etc...
Exactly - it's very much anchored in an 80s mindset of living 'under the bomb': No future, in the end we could all be blown away in an instant, your heroics and hope are meaningless, laughter of dark gods among the cold uncaring stars yadda yadda... if it's done well its very good, but it's also something that is not easy to convey in movies. Do it too openly and it becomes campy, do it too subtle and a lot of people will outright miss it.
Overread wrote: I can't help but feel the single line of "there's no good guys" gets so grossly overblown in online discussions.
Y'think?
It's honestly suffocating. Endlessly trotted out by those who lack nuance or a shred of reading comprehension skills for the 40k material that already exists showing clear examples of heroes and people doing good.
"Nu-uh! GW said there are no good guys, so that means everyone is a super-duper-evil person."
It's such nonsense.
I think that is quite an ironic thing to say, pots and kettles comes to mind. Your broad sweeping statement about people quoting GW lacks nuance.
You are accusing me of having a lack of understanding nuance without knowing me and the nuances I consider when reading/watching 40k material.
A few moral characters in an oppressively unjust setting is the satirical aspect. Like MASH. I remember being a teen looking forward to joining the military and thinking MASH was alright but it needed more combat in it. Then eventually becoming a soldier and better satirical elements of the show making light of the stupidity in military life. Now as a much older former soldier I see the true anti-war narrative that I previously missed.
I loathe how some folks seem to see some sort of aspirational aspects to the Imperium. All I see is a setting that is even worse than the ridiculously misunderstood propaganda that got me into uniform and carrying a rifle.
It is very clear in my mind how even as a young soldier I misunderstood the intent of GW in its creation of 40k as I painted my Crimson Fist Space Marines, admiring the courage, strength and ferocity of them. Wanting to emulate their loyalty, dedication and resolve… completely ignorant of the bigger picture of both the 40k setting and in fact my own service. And when I saw something I did not like, such as the Emperor consuming Psykers to survive I just ignored it… completely missing the intended point of 40k from what folks like Rick Priestly have said.
Quoting that there are some decent, empathetic, moral characters in the Imperium does not change the face that the Imperium embraces horror politically as an ends justifies the means for humanity’s survival. A message I strongly disagree with, especially on impressionable youth… like I once was.
Maybe the Cavill will prove me wrong and create a brilliantly subtle anti-war story telling device but then the question remains, how much of the audience will get that and how many will think, sometimes you just need an Exterminatus.
I would love a nuanced, thought provoking slow burn show like Andor exploring a cautionary tale warning Humanity not to take this path… but honestly I think we will get either a forgettable film like Mutant Chronicles, Game of Thrones misery porn or another vehicle to have kids getting Space Marine Christmas decorations, toothbrushes and lunch boxes.
Edit: Let me be clear, while I enjoy the gamey aspects of D&D alignments I generally do not apply them outside the context of D&D. And as a soldier who served on the Berlin Wall before and during its fall, I was quite aware of the threat of a global holocaust but was able to temper my fear and hatred when dealing with Soviet and East German soldiers.
Brave, heroic acts in support of an evil system are still evil. An SS death squad trooper pushing his comrade out of the way of a partisan with a machine gun is a heroic act, but we wouldn't say that the SS trooper is good because of that.
A Space Marine or guardsman sacrificing their life to quell a rebellion on an Imperial World that sought to free themselves from the tyranny of the Imperium is heroic, yes, but also evil. Their actions serve to perpetuate the oppression of millions of people.
That is what people mean when they say there are "no good guys in 40k".
If I were to make a "serious" show in the 40k universe, I'd do Band of Brothers and follow a company of Guard fighting to defend a world from Chaos. We don't depict any of the outside politics, we just follow this company of the Guard for a full season and see the bonds they have with each other, the sacrifices they make for each other, the bravery. We see them mourn loss, be demoralised in defeat and then finally joyous in victory. It then ends with them being murdered by the very government they fought to protect, due to a paranoid fear of "corruption" despite there being no evidence of such. That is how you portray the 40k universe, it's a universe in which no amount of heroism can save you and that the biggest threat to you is not any outside force but the very institution that you are fighting to preserve.
A Town Called Malus wrote: Brave, heroic acts in support of an evil system are still evil. An SS death squad trooper pushing his comrade out of the way of a partisan with a machine gun is a heroic act, but we wouldn't say that the SS trooper is good because of that.
A Space Marine or guardsman sacrificing their life to quell a rebellion on an Imperial World that sought to free themselves from the tyranny of the Imperium is heroic, yes, but also evil. Their actions serve to perpetuate the oppression of millions of people.
That is what people mean when they say there are "no good guys in 40k".
If I were to make a "serious" show in the 40k universe, I'd do Band of Brothers and follow a company of Guard fighting to defend a world from Chaos. We don't depict any of the outside politics, we just follow this company of the Guard for a full season and see the bonds they have with each other, the sacrifices they make for each other, the bravery. We see them mourn loss, be demoralised in defeat and then finally joyous in victory. It then ends with them being murdered by the very government they fought to protect, due to a paranoid fear of "corruption" despite there being no evidence of such. That is how you portray the 40k universe, it's a universe in which no amount of heroism can save you and that the biggest threat to you is not any outside force but the very institution that you are fighting to preserve.
That sounds like an interesting pitch meeting. It would take quite some courage to make a big financial decision on that pitch mind you. Maybe Cavill will surprise me but I remain skeptical.
I am not opposed to a 40k show per se, I have had a long term love/hate relationship with 40k for over 35 years… I just do not want to see some superficial action adventure show glamorizing the horrors of the Imperium which feeds into an unpleasant real world political movement.
If I were to make a "serious" show in the 40k universe, I'd do Band of Brothers and follow a company of Guard fighting to defend a world from Chaos. We don't depict any of the outside politics, we just follow this company of the Guard for a full season and see the bonds they have with each other, the sacrifices they make for each other, the bravery. We see them mourn loss, be demoralised in defeat and then finally joyous in victory. It then ends with them being murdered by the very government they fought to protect, due to a paranoid fear of "corruption" despite there being no evidence of such. That is how you portray the 40k universe, it's a universe in which no amount of heroism can save you and that the biggest threat to you is not any outside force but the very institution that you are fighting to preserve.
Isn't Gaunt's Ghosts pretty much exactly that, or at least for the first ~ 5 books?
That sounds like an interesting pitch meeting. It would take quite some courage to make a big financial decision on that pitch mind you. Maybe Cavill will surprise me but I remain skeptical.
I think such a pitch would work if its part of a series of shows. The reason a producer wouldn't want something like that is that if the series proves really popular and then you kill everyone off at the end you have to start all over again building up popularity. However if its something close to Hammer and Bolter where whilst it might be more than one episode, its part of a planned series of shows. Then you might well have more room to kill off whole chunks of the cast because your product isn't a single show but multiple ones.
It is indeed an ideal way to show how there's no winner, how the small stories of victory, hardship and heroic acts can be defeated by the cruel hand of madness and fate.
Grumpy Gnome wrote: I loathe how some folks seem to see some sort of aspirational aspects to the Imperium. All I see is a setting that is even worse than the ridiculously misunderstood propaganda that got me into uniform and carrying a rifle.
And I loathe those that assume that because you like something that isn't squeaky clean good, you are instantly a supporter of bad guys.
To jump away from a 40k example for a second, I've seen people get accused of supporting evil because they thought Darth Vader was cool. I've seen people scream about how liking Star Destroyers means that you 100% support the Empire and everything it did to the species of the galaxy in Star Wars. Without using the specific 'N' word* I have in mind, let's just say that the conversation got Godwin'd very quickly.
People are far too quick to apply immediate black and white blanket statements when it comes to fiction and how people interface with fiction without any level of thought. Enjoyment isn't support. Thinking something is cool doesn't make you somehow complicit or sympathetic to the actions of those doing bad.
"There are no good guys in 40K"
Bull gak. There are plenty of good guys. There are plenty of heroic people. There are plenty of self-sacrificing people who gladly lay down their lives for the good of their fellow man (either as an abstract or specific people with them). When the Astral Knights all died to a man to stop the Necron world engine, they did it to save lives, not because the Necrons showing up had delayed them from killing more infants or torturing animals or something. They were heroes. They died as heroes. Their story is heroic.
One of my most enduring 40k memories is from a game of Space Hulk I played, where one of the Marines had to stay back to hold off my incoming Genestealers, as without doing that I would have overrun his position. My friend played out the talk between the surviving Marines.
"Where is Brother Sammael?" "He's not coming."
The Imperium is a genocidal juggernaut - that much is clear - but the idea that everyone within the Imperium are all bad guys is childishly ignorant. Not every act taken by people within the Imperium serves some greater horror (and comparing this fictional game to real life SS units speaks to a lack of perspective).
Grumpy Gnome wrote: It is very clear in my mind how even as a young soldier I misunderstood the intent of GW in its creation of 40k as I painted my Crimson Fist Space Marines, admiring the courage, strength and ferocity of them. Wanting to emulate their loyalty, dedication and resolve… completely ignorant of the bigger picture of both the 40k setting and in fact my own service. And when I saw something I did not like, such as the Emperor consuming Psykers to survive I just ignored it… completely missing the intended point of 40k from what folks like Rick Priestly have said.
Then that's on you. The two are not mutually exclusive. It's not black and white.
Grumpy Gnome wrote: Quoting that there are some decent, empathetic, moral characters in the Imperium does not change the face that the Imperium embraces horror politically as an ends justifies the means for humanity’s survival. A message I strongly disagree with...
It's not a message. Delivering a message is not the aim of the fiction.
And D&D will make you worship the devil. Give me a break...
Grumpy Gnome wrote: Maybe the Cavill will prove me wrong and create a brilliantly subtle anti-war story telling device but then the question remains, how much of the audience will get that and how many will think, sometimes you just need an Exterminatus.
Why does he need to create an "anti-war" story in the first place? Moreover, delivering a story that isn't anti-war doesn't make that story "pro-war" either. You can take no stance on it, because having a stance may not be relevant or even appropriate for the story you are trying to tell.
A Space Marine or guardsman sacrificing their life to quell a rebellion on an Imperial World that sought to free themselves from the tyranny of the Imperium is heroic, yes, but also evil. Their actions serve to perpetuate the oppression of millions of people.
That is what people mean when they say there are "no good guys in 40k".
This is what people mean when they complain about the "no good guys" circlejerk - it robs the setting of any moral complexity, which in turn robs it of its ability to meaningfully underline the negatives it often purports to be satirising. Black on black on black doesn't make for a compelling image, regardless of what the art merchants would tell you.
Tsagualsa wrote: The last thing the hobby needs is an influx of kinda-non-ironic-in-an-ironic-way ''I'm not a nazi but you have to hand it to them...'' edgy guys that missed the point of the joke.
I don't think we'd even notice another few hundred thousand of those at this point. We have plenty of our own as it is.
A Space Marine or guardsman sacrificing their life to quell a rebellion on an Imperial World that sought to free themselves from the tyranny of the Imperium is heroic, yes, but also evil. Their actions serve to perpetuate the oppression of millions of people.
That is what people mean when they say there are "no good guys in 40k".
This is what people mean when they complain about the "no good guys" circlejerk - it robs the setting of any moral complexity, which in turn robs it of its ability to meaningfully underline the negatives it often purports to be satirising. Black on black on black doesn't make for a compelling image, regardless of what the art merchants would tell you.
There is no moral complexity to anything the Imperium does and there never has been. The Imperium was never justified in genocide and its perpetual meat grinder of war.
We know this, because humanity was at its greatest and strongest in the setting when it instead forged alliances with alien species rather than seek to exterminate as a first response. The time when humanity actually had a civilisation the Emperor claimed to want to create was when it went against his genocidal ideals.
That is where the satire is. The Emperor claimed to want to recreate the human dominion of the galaxy, but his methods guaranteed that it would fail as he only saw the value in conquest and domination, never co-operation.
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H.B.M.C. wrote: Why does he need to create an "anti-war" story in the first place? Moreover, delivering a story that isn't anti-war doesn't make that story "pro-war" either. You can take no stance on it, because having a stance may not be relevant or even appropriate for the story you are trying to tell.
Name one war story that is neutral on war.
Seriously. It is impossible to write a story on war that does not, in some way, comment on war itself. Whether that is anti-war or pro-war depends on the biases of the author and the framing of the story.
Even if you write a story in which a particular war is justified (WW2 being a historical example when it comes to the Allies, Nazism absolutely had to be stopped), you will still end up commenting on war itself as a concept. Every time you depict a soldier grieving the loss of a comrade killed in battle, you are commenting on war and its effect on the people who fight it.
The only way to write a story on war that does not comment on war itself is to write a story that is completely empty of all emotion and meaning.
Seriously. It is imppssible to write a story on war that does not, in some way, comment on war itself. Whether that is anti-war or pro-war depends on the biases of the author.
Even if you write a story in which a particular war is justified (WW2 being a historical example when it comes to the Allies, Nazism absolutely had to be stopped), you will still end up commenting on war itself as a concept. Every time you depict a soldier grieving the loss of a comrade killed in battle, you are commenting on war and its effect on the people who fight it.
The concept ''War is terrible and, be it in a long or short time, always ultimately leads to dehumanization. There is no glory and no heroics in it, it's all just more blood on an uncaring altar'' is literally a dude that runs around in the setting. He is also a quarter of 'The Devil' of the setting. Pretty hard to miss.
Overread wrote: I can't help but feel the single line of "there's no good guys" gets so grossly overblown in online discussions. Because if you crack open any of the BL books there are good, bad, grey, crazy characters all over the place.
Over the last few years there's been a weird vibe amongst certain elements of the 40k fandom (often led by some of the Youtube content creators), where they have to keep ramming home the fact that the Imperium is bad. I don't know if it's a backlash to Trump or to that Spanish event nonsense or Arch, but these people seem to think that fans of 40k are unable to understand that the Imperium is a bad thing. That we're all going to turn into fascists if us and GW are not reminded of this every few weeks. It's all very weird and feels a bit like an active campaign to get GW to bend to their exact view of the background.
We all know that the Imperium is a communist/facistic theocratic hellhole but that doesn't mean that RELATIVELY speaking it's better than living in a Chaos ruled hellscape or getting eaten by Tyranids. Likewise people can do heroic things in the name of the Imperium and can be good people working within the greater structure of a horrific bureaucratic nightmare. It's called nuance and complex characterisation and I wish the people who kept beating this drum would understand it rather than their narrow view. You could easily create a 40k TV series that has people doing relatively heroic things while acknowledging that the state of the Imperium is god awful.
As H.B.M.C stated it's tiresome and it actually reflects far more badly on those who feel the need to constantly bring up the line and can't understand nuance, than whatever boogey man elements of the fanbase they seem to be targeting and think are far more prominent than they actually are.
I think the issue is people taking that line literally. It's meant on a wider scale with regards to the factions itself, at least it was when the studio used to say it. Are there good guys in the setting? Of course, but they're stand out individuals or smaller groups.
I’d like to see the story of yarrick vs ghaz play out on Armageddon. The final scene where our dead hero is brought back to life by the orks would be great for none 40K fans
I think its also part of the whole narrative of endless war. That whatever victories or joys there are at the small scale; the large scale is still a galaxy burning with strife and war. It's not a setting where one side is going to get the upper hand and win; or where the factions are going to come to a mutual long lasting peace agreement.
We all know that the Imperium is a communist/facistic theocratic hellhole but that doesn't mean that RELATIVELY speaking it's better than living in a Chaos ruled hellscape or getting eaten by Tyranids.
It does invite the question why the writers felt it was necessary to write it in this way, and whether those reasons are still valid today, in a world so different from the 80s hellscape it was created in. I don't believe many of us have as much in common ideologically and politically with, say, Rick Priestley circa 1987, than you might initially think. Heck, I don't know if even Rick Priestley 2022 has all things in common with that guy. "We all change, when you think about it, we're all different people; all through our lives, and that's okay, that's good, you've gotta keep moving, so long as you remember all the people that you used to be." Warhammer 40,000 is good at remembering, but not so good about moving.
Especially as this is a commercial product we're many of us (in various degrees) buying into, questioning it on occasion would seem to me to be an unequivocal good.
The English language is a funny thing, it can be imprecise at times and easily cause some confusion. Let me try to clarify. I did not say I loathe people that like 40k, the Imperium, Star Destroyers or Stormtrooper toothbrushes. I said I loathe how some people can see the 40k as admirable. Not some people in the Imperium. Not everyone in the Imperium. The Imperium. And I loathe an idea. Not people. I do not loathe you HMBC nor do I assume you liking something that is not squeaky clean means that you like fascists, communists, Nazis, terrorists, genocidal mass murders, etc etc.
I fully understand the idea of a compelling narrative based on good people in bad situations. I have done WW2 re-enacting as a German soldier as well as American. The Normandy museums do an excellent job of expressing the humanity of German soldiers with glamorizing Nazism. A difficult task but it can be done.
It is an easy out to try to look at a war film and switch off the morality of the war by taking a neutral stance. Been there, done that. Or to look at a conflict and assume one side was 100 percent the good guys while ignoring evidence of warcrimes committed by elements of those good guys.
Andor has come closer to portraying Imperials in a sympathetic light than any previous Star Wars media but even as it may have given the viewer pause it did make it clear that while not all the Rebels were “good people” the Empire is something that must be fought against. I have little faith this 40k show will do the same. I hope I am proven wrong.
As for Godwin, there is absolutely no way to think about 40k and not have Nazi comparisons. It is foundational to the original satirical material. Ideological symbology is all over 40k artwork.
Nd yeah, actually making a genocidal political agenda cool is being complicit. Making the idea of being blindly loyal despite horrific acts something to aspire to, to glamorize it… that is being complicit in fostering it.
I am not a pacifist. There is a time and place for violence. The movies we make as a society create contemporary mythology which influence our cultural norms. A certain amount of escapism is fine, healthy, and mental exercises to try to understand “ the other side” are useful to encourage empathy. Darth Vader is a cool villain… but it needs to be clear that Anakin may be a hero, Darth Vader is a villain no matter how cool he might look. The minute Darth Vader/the Emperor becomes the Galaxy‘s/Humanity‘s only hope of survival we have a problem. Empire/Imperium of Man has cool looking uniforms and ships. These are tools of recruitment. Both for the fictional Imperials as well as getting fans to watch. It is the same psychological tools used by real world political organizations.
I did not invent “there are no good guys in 40k”… GW said that officially even if they give mixed messages with having several “good” characters.
Again at no point did I say everyone in the Imperium is evil. All those serving the Imperium are however serving an evil institution in my opinion however.
Again you accuse me of not understanding nuance and then you make blanket statements ignoring my own acknowledgment of the nuances within 40k. Although I would not call the nuance strong enough to be truly compelling narrative. The shades of grey are closer to shades of black, with the occasional point of light. Granted, darkness is necessary to make the light shine. Again, you misjudge me if you think I can not comprehend moral complexity.
And the Satanic Panic jibe is off base. I understand a balance between considering the impact on upbringing and overreacting without critical thinking skills. Hence I am not on here arguing against playing war games with toy soldiers and tiny plastic demons.
I will admit part of my issue is that I am sick of Grimdark. I am sick of edgy antiheroes in yet another cynical nihilistic dystopia. It is not a form of escapism that I think truly helps us all in our current political situation.
Maybe the Cavill will prove me wrong and create a brilliantly subtle anti-war story telling device but then the question remains, how much of the audience will get that and how many will think, sometimes you just need an Exterminatus.
War is what 40k IS though, and if the Imperium didn't exist as is the actual alien threats would push humanity over.
For all the comparisons to WW2 Germany, y'all seem to forget there aren't actual Jewish Space Lasers, but Necrons have them. You can't rely on cooperation.
Maybe the Cavill will prove me wrong and create a brilliantly subtle anti-war story telling device but then the question remains, how much of the audience will get that and how many will think, sometimes you just need an Exterminatus.
War is what 40k IS though, and if the Imperium didn't exist as is the actual alien threats would push humanity over.
For all the comparisons to WW2 Germany, y'all seem to forget there aren't actual Jewish Space Lasers, but Necrons have them. You can't rely on cooperation.
This is basically it. 40k is so far removed from our own reality, that we cannot apply the same set of general ethics and morals to it. In our world, wars should be avoidable through diplomacy and collaboration, in 40k they aren't. That simple fact alone carries a set of implications which completely changes the definition of morality in that universe. It also means that its moral values cannot be applied to our lived reality either, which is something most people intuitively understand.
Maybe the Cavill will prove me wrong and create a brilliantly subtle anti-war story telling device but then the question remains, how much of the audience will get that and how many will think, sometimes you just need an Exterminatus.
War is what 40k IS though, and if the Imperium didn't exist as is the actual alien threats would push humanity over.
For all the comparisons to WW2 Germany, y'all seem to forget there aren't actual Jewish Space Lasers, but Necrons have them. You can't rely on cooperation.
But are alien threats only defeated through draconian, authoritarian religious fundamentalism? You see, that is my concern. The unquestioning assumption that only through such brutality can humanity survive. That questioning things causes doubt and doubt can only come from corrupting external influences.
Everything in 40k only exists because the writers make it so with approval from the top bosses of GW.
The question is, what exactly is the message that GW wants to send? That endless war is good for business? Especially if you do not question it….
Even Roboute Guilliman said it when he was revived. The Imperium is not "the only chance of humanity to survive".
Thats taking the exact opossite idea that warhammer 40k is founded upon. "This authoritarian regime is neccesary for our survival" is basically the real-world rethoric of those kind of groups.
Even at its peak during the Great Crusade , GW did an active effort to show how basically any other human civilization that was more moral than the Imperium was better. The Interex literally were inmune to Chaos because they understood it. The same thing that caused the colapse of both Eldar and the Imperium. And they weren't pushovers. They had fought and won agaisnt alien threats without compromising their morals.
Yeah, the Imperium destroyed them, just like the Great Crusade destroyed literally anything, that doesn't means orks or eldar are weak.
The 40k Imperium is a carcass that it is the way it is not for the best of humanity but for the auto-preservation of its elite. Its a land of horror, of superstition, of people doing stupid things they don't understand because they have been doing them for thousands of years, always at the defensive, always losing ground.
And the Emperor was a megalomaniac that even doing all the horrible stuff he did, didn't achieved half the stuff humans did before the Eldar f***ed Slaanesh into existence.
40k is not Fantasy. You could defend fantasy human nations (Bretonnia, the Empire, Kislev, Border Princess, Stalia) because even if they were harsh (just like our own medieval societys) they were basically just like anybody else: A bunch of people trying to survive and prosper. 40k was not build upon those same narratives.
The question is, what exactly is the message that GW wants to send? That endless war is good for business? Especially if you do not question it….
Endless war sure is good for business if you're into endlessly selling plastic soldiers. Let's not try to assign a deeper meaning to what is essentially marketing material for their main product.
War isn't avoidable, but that doesn't mean cooperation isn't beneficial. I mean, there are countless books in which the IoM needs to make alliances with Eldar, Tau and even Necrons to survive against greater threats, and usually in those same books you have a xenophobic donkey-cave that is really making everything harder and needs to be killed for the alliance to work.
Without cooperation, the IoM has no hope of surviving, humanity cannot survive alone.
And that's without getting into all the Imperial nonsense like executing IG veterans for having survived a conflict with Chaos, reloading building sized naval guns with slave labor, all the Inquisitorial backstabbing and the IoM literally losing worlds because extremely inefficient bureaucracy.
Nothing to worry about, as you do it through allegory. Because 40K is a satire.
Plus, unlike real world bigots, the things the Ecclesiarchy warn you against actually will, given half a chance, eat your children and tut at your Nana.
Maybe the Cavill will prove me wrong and create a brilliantly subtle anti-war story telling device but then the question remains, how much of the audience will get that and how many will think, sometimes you just need an Exterminatus.
War is what 40k IS though, and if the Imperium didn't exist as is the actual alien threats would push humanity over.
For all the comparisons to WW2 Germany, y'all seem to forget there aren't actual Jewish Space Lasers, but Necrons have them. You can't rely on cooperation.
But are alien threats only defeated through draconian, authoritarian religious fundamentalism?
Yes, because you can't negotiate with Dark Eldar, Chaos Marines/Daemons and Necrons without actually being worse off for it. You also can't negotiate with Tyranids at all. Eldar is a half/half.
The question is, what exactly is the message that GW wants to send? That endless war is good for business? Especially if you do not question it….
Endless war sure is good for business if you're into endlessly selling plastic soldiers. Let's not try to assign a deeper meaning to what is essentially marketing material for their main product.
That was part of my point. The other part is that in the quest for all that hobby money GW does not care what impact the narrative of 40k has on our society as a cultural construct.
Galas wrote: Nah. I disagree with that take both of you have.
Even Roboute Guilliman said it when he was revived. The Imperium is not "the only chance of humanity to survive".
Thats taking the exact opossite idea that warhammer 40k is founded upon. "This authoritarian regime is neccesary for our survival" is basically the real-world rethoric of those kind of groups.
Except it is, because you're not dealing with regular people as a threat. Roboute can believe otherwise all he wants, and look how far he gets narratively: he doesn't.
The question is, what exactly is the message that GW wants to send? That endless war is good for business? Especially if you do not question it….
Endless war sure is good for business if you're into endlessly selling plastic soldiers. Let's not try to assign a deeper meaning to what is essentially marketing material for their main product.
That was part of my point. The other part is that in the quest for all that hobby money GW does not care what impact the narrative of 40k has on our society as a cultural construct.
Fantasy/scifi authors rely on their readers being able to separate reality from fiction. Which typically is something most people learn before they are teenagers.
Seriously people we are not far off starting to justify that GW is going to make us all hyper violent war crazed maniacs. You know the whole "video games make you violent" stuff has been debunked more than enough times. Are we REALLY going ot now swing back to say that "video games are fine, but those violent miniature games" are the real source of the problem?
The question is, what exactly is the message that GW wants to send? That endless war is good for business? Especially if you do not question it….
Endless war sure is good for business if you're into endlessly selling plastic soldiers. Let's not try to assign a deeper meaning to what is essentially marketing material for their main product.
In the grim darkness of the 41st millennium there is only an overarching bureaucracy mired in its own procedural deficiencies its faults in part due to the massive size of the empire it serves.
You will not be missed....except when you take form 5c and fill in only those boxes marked and only filled with original Adminsitrtum approved quill and ink.
This is as accurate as endless war. Why has GW not marketed related paperwork?
Galas wrote: Nah. I disagree with that take both of you have.
Even Roboute Guilliman said it when he was revived. The Imperium is not "the only chance of humanity to survive".
Thats taking the exact opossite idea that warhammer 40k is founded upon. "This authoritarian regime is neccesary for our survival" is basically the real-world rethoric of those kind of groups.
Except it is, because you're not dealing with regular people as a threat. Roboute can believe otherwise all he wants, and look how far he gets narratively: he doesn't.
His problem isn't the threat outside humanity, its the insanity and mania within humanity. It's powerful Lords of Terra, insane Inquisitors, powerful Witches, Warlocks and Mages (some of which who only deal with Machines). The Imperium is part insane with power struggles, internal strife, insane fears and perceptions. Technology is a religion; AI is feared to the point they use human minds in machines etc... There are logical reasons for some of those, but there's also a massive amount of insanity and indoctrination that gets worse for each generation.
There ARE other ways to survive; humanity keeps trying them. But the Imperium is vast and its arm is strong, despite being withered and corrupted
Plus, unlike real world bigots, the things the Ecclesiarchy warn you against actually will, given half a chance, eat your children and tut at your Nana.
Not really no, the Ecclesiarchy says nothing about Daemons or Tyranids. Before the Great Rift knowledge about Daemons was potentially a heresy by itself. The Ecclesiarchy talks about Xenos and heretics in general, but it doesn't get into details, it doesn't differentiate between a Craftworld Eldar or a Tyranid, because if it did then people may start to question the need to get into fights with Craftworlds when Hive Fleets are a thing.
Propaganda needs a scary enemy that can be paradoxically easily beaten, making people aware that Daemons and Tyranids are likely going to eat their children and they cannot really do anything about it because these are predators that operate at far greater scales than individual worlds, much less individual humans, is bad propaganda.
That was part of my point. The other part is that in the quest for all that hobby money GW does not care what impact the narrative of 40k has on our society as a cultural construct.
The most successful franchises of all time, religions, took hundreds and thousands of years to imbed certain cultural norms into our societies, and with enormous amounts of wealth, power and purpose.
I don't believe 40k does have much of an impact on cultural norms, being a niche entertainment product with a demonstrably absurd premise.
Yes, there will be some bad apples who take the glory of the Imperium at face value to validate their own authoritarian beliefs, but they are a drop in a bucket.
Galas wrote: Nah. I disagree with that take both of you have.
Even Roboute Guilliman said it when he was revived. The Imperium is not "the only chance of humanity to survive".
Thats taking the exact opossite idea that warhammer 40k is founded upon. "This authoritarian regime is neccesary for our survival" is basically the real-world rethoric of those kind of groups.
Except it is, because you're not dealing with regular people as a threat. Roboute can believe otherwise all he wants, and look how far he gets narratively: he doesn't.
The discussion is not about "Needs humanity to have big weapons and big armies to fight agaisnt the obviously evil things that Warhammer universe has?". Because the answer to that is clear. The Interex had big armies and fought and won agaisnt various xenos. And then made peace with them and coexisted with them.
The discussion is about "Does humanity need to have such a gruesome regime to survive?" And the answer to that, narratively is "No. Actually, that regime is keeping humanity from becoming even better". And thats a principal core of the setting.
If you disagree with that you are basically in disagrement with the basic principle of warhammer 40k, that humanity has lived golden ages and the present state of affairs is a sad mockery of what it could become if it was not shackled by thousands of years of paranoia and superstition.
So saying that the Imperium , at its current state, is neccesary for humanity survival is not only missing WH40K point. Is basically to believe imperial in-universe propaganda is the truth.
The question is, what exactly is the message that GW wants to send? That endless war is good for business? Especially if you do not question it….
Endless war sure is good for business if you're into endlessly selling plastic soldiers. Let's not try to assign a deeper meaning to what is essentially marketing material for their main product.
That was part of my point. The other part is that in the quest for all that hobby money GW does not care what impact the narrative of 40k has on our society as a cultural construct.
Fantasy/scifi authors rely on their readers being able to separate reality from fiction. Which typically is something most people learn before they are teenagers.
Seriously people we are not far off starting to justify that GW is going to make us all hyper violent war crazed maniacs. You know the whole "video games make you violent" stuff has been debunked more than enough times. Are we REALLY going ot now swing back to say that "video games are fine, but those violent miniature games" are the real source of the problem?
I specifically said I was not going down the Satanic Panic route, that I am not a pacifist, and that escapism with toy soldiers does not need to be harmful.
Understanding the intent of satire is not the same thing as understanding the difference between reality and fiction.
Plus, unlike real world bigots, the things the Ecclesiarchy warn you against actually will, given half a chance, eat your children and tut at your Nana.
Not really no, the Ecclesiarchy says nothing about Daemons or Tyranids. Before the Great Rift knowledge about Daemons was potentially a heresy by itself. The Ecclesiarchy talks about Xenos and heretics in general, but it doesn't get into details, it doesn't differentiate between a Craftworld Eldar or a Tyranid, because if it did then people may start to question the need to get into fights with Craftworlds when Hive Fleets are a thing.
Propaganda needs a scary enemy that can be paradoxically easily beaten, making people aware that Daemons and Tyranids are likely going to eat their children and they cannot really do anything about it because these are predators that operate at far greater scales than individual worlds, much less individual humans, is bad propaganda.
Which is why so much is hidden from even The Imperial Guard, at least through training.
Chaos Cults exist, and unlike the Satanic Panic, actually will do human sacrifice for profit and power. Or, aha, Prophet and Power. I didn’t say anything about specific Xenos race in my post. And neither does the Ecclesiarchy. Just “The Xenos”.
And will this mainstream 40k show be able to adequately address the topics raised in this thread, by folks familiar with the IP, for the general public?
And that is not even considering the other possibility, that it tries to soften the satirical Grimdark and we end up with superficially heroic Space Marine defenders of humanity.
Is the sacrifice of the Astral Knights really heroic if they are following genetic programming and psychological conditioning?
Grumpy Gnome wrote: And will this mainstream 40k show be able to adequately address the topics raised in this thread, by folks familiar with the IP, for the general public?
I think something as faithful to the themes of the original work as The Boys was would be the best outcome, but as GW is most likely looking at this to be good advertisement for mainstream viewers to perhaps want to engage with the IP on a deeper level, I suspect that to be a fairly unlikely end result myself. This is, potentially, 40k's "big break", and them producing something that's too harrowing, disturbing or political could faceplant the whole thing at the first hurdle.
Maybe the Cavill will prove me wrong and create a brilliantly subtle anti-war story telling device but then the question remains, how much of the audience will get that and how many will think, sometimes you just need an Exterminatus.
War is what 40k IS though, and if the Imperium didn't exist as is the actual alien threats would push humanity over.
For all the comparisons to WW2 Germany, y'all seem to forget there aren't actual Jewish Space Lasers, but Necrons have them. You can't rely on cooperation.
But are alien threats only defeated through draconian, authoritarian religious fundamentalism?
Yes, because you can't negotiate with Dark Eldar, Chaos Marines/Daemons and Necrons without actually being worse off for it. You also can't negotiate with Tyranids at all. Eldar is a half/half.
So basically you'd only have luck with Tau.
And Nicassar… And Kroot… And Vespid… and Tarellians, Jokaero, Zoat, Galg, Oretti, Donarathi, Eldar Exodites, Ynnari, Pisceans, Kin…
The point is, plenty of species in the galaxy willing to cooperate or with a history of past alliances. Also don’t forget the large amount of Beastmen, Abhumans and mutants that probably would be more cooperative if the Imperium didn’t either cull them or consider them second-class citizens.
Grumpy Gnome wrote: And will this mainstream 40k show be able to adequately address the topics raised in this thread, by folks familiar with the IP, for the general public?
And that is not even considering the other possibility, that it tries to soften the satirical Grimdark and we end up with superficially heroic Space Marine defenders of humanity.
Is the sacrifice of the Astral Knights really heroic if they are following genetic programming and psychological conditioning?
It shouldn't be hard to address the most crucial points of the setting right away. They will have to do some sort of 5-minute expositional intro like in LOTR to establish the setting for the general public. It will contain a description of what the Imperium is and what it does, which should speak for itself.
For Space Marines, that's a bit more difficult I feel, because they are shining super warriors at face value. It's also where a lot of the real meat of 40k lies though, so I'm hoping that there will be some exploration of what SM really are and how it relates to their humanity.
As much as people wants to paint Space Marines as this horrible thing, they aren't anymore the police of the original Rogue Trader Imperium.
In the scale of warhammer 40k they are some of the more moral thing the imperium has. Warriors that don't normally engage with civilian population (With the exception of some chapters) to do any kind of loathsome or represive actions, that dedicates their entire lives to fight the worse stuff (Those you can kill without any moral dilema) humanity has to face.
Yes. They are children warriors... just like the rest of the Imperium. They aren't worse in that regard.
This show isn’t being “done” by Amazon. They are just money and distributors really.
Vertigo is the key. Look at Bates Motel and The Stand for recent shows by them. Most other things they’ve done I know in film world are horror films and such.
The boys is Point Grey and Sony who actually made it.
High Castle was Big Light.
And so on.
Where we watch it is always somewhat secondary in that sense. Obviously not saying that Amazon have no input, as the production company is a thing. But their production on their original programming is a lot more limited.
Same for Netflix and all other streamers etc, well and for tv channels as well for like CBS and so on..
BertBert wrote: They will have to do some sort of 5-minute expositional intro like in LOTR to establish the setting for the general public. It will contain a description of what the Imperium is and what it does, which should speak for itself.
If they're gonna do a Fellowship of the Ring opening, they've gotta adapt the classic:
This show isn’t being “done” by Amazon. They are just money and distributors really.
Vertigo is the key. Look at Bates Motel and The Stand for recent shows by them. Most other things they’ve done I know in film world are horror films and such.
The boys is Point Grey and Sony who actually made it.
High Castle was Big Light.
And so on.
Where we watch it is always somewhat secondary in that sense. Obviously not saying that Amazon have no input, as the production company is a thing. But their production on their original programming is a lot more limited.
Same for Netflix and all other streamers etc, well and for tv channels as well for like CBS and so on..
All true, but I'm speaking more to the "there are no good guys" theme of the show.
All the characters are good or bad depending on your take and the situation.
Basically the only "good" people are the background people that don't deserve what happens to them while everyone else is fighting for control.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Nothing to worry about, as you do it through allegory. Because 40K is a satire.
Plus, unlike real world bigots, the things the Ecclesiarchy warn you against actually will, given half a chance, eat your children and tut at your Nana.
It's like people can't see the trees thru the forest. SATIRE is the foundation of all the good things in 40k. Somehow, somewhere people lost the plot of it.
The sheer preposterous nature of the setting shoulda been a clue, but apparently people need a thunderhammer rather than a pickpocket.
It's like people can't see the trees thru the forest. SATIRE is the foundation of all the good things in 40k. Somehow, somewhere people lost the plot of it.
The sheer preposterous nature of the setting shoulda been a clue, but apparently people need a thunderhammer rather than a pickpocket.
It's unlikely the show/film/whatever that comes out of this deal will be a satire first and foremost. It may have some satirical elements, but I don't think it's going to be the major tone element.
The Astronomicon is an actual Lighthouse for sailing the (literal) Season of Madness.
Thousands of a specific minority(human) are sacrificed purposefully each day to keep (literal) daemons from pouring out of a tear in reality on Terra.
An extra-galactic ravenous maw(metaphorical) is closing in upon the Milky Way and what we've seen so far pales in comparison to what awaits..
An ancient cybernetic race is awenking from its long slumber to assert dominion upon which they had previously owned, irrespective of current claims to said "property".
A fungal infection that doesn't necessarily want to kill but but would rather just keep kicking your ass over and over again cuz it's fun.
I could go on but each of those examples are satire when viewed with current "sensibilities"
I will say this, given my love/hate relationship with 40k… I wish Cavill to consult with Dr. Mathias over on Lead Adventure on how to create a vision of life in the 40k Imperium.
The thing is you look at the Amazon involvement and have an involuntary bowel movement.
Henry Cavill has always been a great advocate for the hobby and has staunch respect for the fandom and the lore I cant see him doing it injustice and would sooner walk away then feth it up.
The fact that we are getting live action Warhammer on a budget should be enough that its being handled by a guy who plays the game and loves the lore. Tbh and Discourse gaming made a great point that this is just an annoucement JUST that it has to go through multiple drafts, Casting calls, schedule checks. Does he go with hollywood actors or does he go with unknowns? what effects house does he go with? what era does he set it in? does he go with what everyone who knows him thinks he will? or does he go with something else? like Era Indomitus or the Plague Wars? or does he make it a inquisitor series focusing on the secret war? hell he may even go with a four series quad trilogy Unification Wars,Great Crusade,Horus Heresy,The Scouring/Era Imperium...
The Astronomicon is an actual Lighthouse for sailing the (literal) Season of Madness.
Thousands of a specific minority(human) are sacrificed purposefully each day to keep (literal) daemons from pouring out of a tear in reality on Terra.
An extra-galactic ravenous maw(metaphorical) is closing in upon the Milky Way and what we've seen so far pales in comparison to what awaits..
An ancient cybernetic race is awenking from its long slumber to assert dominion upon which they had previously owned, irrespective of current claims to said "property".
A fungal infection that doesn't necessarily want to kill but but would rather just keep kicking your ass over and over again cuz it's fun.
I could go on but each of those examples are satire when viewed with current "sensibilities"
I'm sorry, but what are those examples supposed to satirise? Obviously the Orks themselves could be seen as satire, although they're both funny AND blatant about it, but the rest?
From a personal perspective I think this will be bad for the Warhammer universe.
The action figures, chibis and scented candles were bad enough, add a most likely cringe filled live action tie in and this will likely be another nail of soulless corporatism to add to its coffin.
How have the action figures, candles and such hurt the franchise? I mean really?
The rules are the same as ever; the models are still awesome; the paintwork is great; the lore and stories the same.
I've not really seen any harm with the merch. IF anything most people like it. They just engage with different parts. Some love the action toys, some the plushies, some like the wallets and bowls.
Plus all the merch and such costs GW 0. Actually it doesn't just cost them 0 it generates money for them!
The fact that we are getting live action Warhammer on a budget should be enough that its being handled by a guy who plays the game and loves the lore. Tbh and Discourse gaming made a great point that this is just an annoucement JUST that it has to go through multiple drafts, Casting calls, schedule checks. Does he go with hollywood actors or does he go with unknowns? what effects house does he go with? what era does he set it in? does he go with what everyone who knows him thinks he will? or does he go with something else? like Era Indomitus or the Plague Wars? or does he make it a inquisitor series focusing on the secret war? hell he may even go with a four series quad trilogy Unification Wars,Great Crusade,Horus Heresy,The Scouring/Era Imperium...
We just DONT know...
If they take a page from the same book as a lot of the computer games or RPGs, they'll at least initially set it in a sector, subsector or whatever specifically made-up for the series or for the cinematic universe that is supposed to exist eventually. The 40k universe is a big place, there are enough inquisitors, commissars and so on that are not specifically Eisenhorn and Gaunt, and not every fight against chaos needs to include Abaddon or a Demon-Primarch. You can get around to the famous people and stories later on if you want to, but for a start it's probably better to go to planet Cleanslatica and fight the Genericans for a bit, just to give you some time to establish the main characters and some story beats without worrying about 'canon' and 'accuracy' too much.
The action figures, chibis and scented candles were bad enough, add a most likely cringe filled live action tie in and this will likely be another nail of soulless corporatism to add to its coffin.
Eh, you can't stay niche forever, and as the saying goes, there's a lot of ruin in a nation, or company in this case. It's not like the added existence of stuff like this takes something away from people, some may even enjoy it, and if you personally do not it's easy enough to ignore.
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Overread wrote: How have the action figures, candles and such hurt the franchise? I mean really?
The rules are the same as ever; the models are still awesome; the paintwork is great; the lore and stories the same.
I've not really seen any harm with the merch. IF anything most people like it. They just engage with different parts. Some love the action toys, some the plushies, some like the wallets and bowls.
Plus all the merch and such costs GW 0. Actually it doesn't just cost them 0 it generates money for them!
All that stuff has also been with us for much longer than peole realize. Even before the turn of the millenium - hah - you could buy all sorts of shirts, dogtags, belt buckles, keyfobs, mugs and other trinkets with warhammer branding, and the first series of 'collectible polystone statuettes' was released in 2002 iirc. Nowadays it's just a bit more professional, a bit more offensively marketed, and has a broader appeal to people whose main contact with the hobby was via video games.
Overread wrote: How have the action figures, candles and such hurt the franchise? I mean really?
The rules are the same as ever; the models are still awesome; the paintwork is great; the lore and stories the same.
I've not really seen any harm with the merch. IF anything most people like it. They just engage with different parts. Some love the action toys, some the plushies, some like the wallets and bowls.
Plus all the merch and such costs GW 0. Actually it doesn't just cost them 0 it generates money for them!
All that stuff has also been with us for much longer than peole realize. Even before the turn of the millenium - hah - you could buy all sorts of shirts, dogtags, belt buckles, keyfobs, mugs and other trinkets with warhammer branding, and the first series of 'collectible polystone statuettes' was released in 2002 iirc. Nowadays it's just a bit more professional, a bit more offensively marketed, and has a broader appeal to people whose main contact with the hobby was via video games.
It's also being sold online and not just in the Warhammer main store in Nottingham and also long term. As you say we've had merch for years, just often in one shot wonders (often around Christmas) rather than longer or at least middle term products that hang around.
Maybe the Cavill will prove me wrong and create a brilliantly subtle anti-war story telling device but then the question remains, how much of the audience will get that and how many will think, sometimes you just need an Exterminatus.
War is what 40k IS though, and if the Imperium didn't exist as is the actual alien threats would push humanity over.
For all the comparisons to WW2 Germany, y'all seem to forget there aren't actual Jewish Space Lasers, but Necrons have them. You can't rely on cooperation.
But are alien threats only defeated through draconian, authoritarian religious fundamentalism?
Yes, because you can't negotiate with Dark Eldar, Chaos Marines/Daemons and Necrons without actually being worse off for it. You also can't negotiate with Tyranids at all. Eldar is a half/half.
So basically you'd only have luck with Tau.
And Nicassar… And Kroot… And Vespid… and Tarellians, Jokaero, Zoat, Galg, Oretti, Donarathi, Eldar Exodites, Ynnari, Pisceans, Kin…
The point is, plenty of species in the galaxy willing to cooperate or with a history of past alliances. Also don’t forget the large amount of Beastmen, Abhumans and mutants that probably would be more cooperative if the Imperium didn’t either cull them or consider them second-class citizens.
It could well be the story of an Imperial Inquisitor with the best of intentions who figures out just how messed up the Imperium really is... and tries to do good despite the ridiculously over the top obstacles put in front of them.... but I doubt it.
And yes, good point about the treatment of Abhumans (and other mutants) illustrating the racism as well as xenophobia of the Imperium.
As far as merchandising… if anyone understands soulless corporatism it is GW.
And between GW game shops targeting 12 years and teen focused coming of age adventure novels I do wonder if GW has forgotten that 40k is supposed to be satirical.
I personally have mixed feelings. On one hand, it may be watchable, on the other - I am 100% sure we will get as many normal humans as possible, and a story probably focused around Imperial Guard or the Inquisition (much more likely than any other outcome in my opinion), and normal humans are not why I interact with Warhammer media.
And between GW game shops targeting 12 years and teen focused coming of age adventure novels I do wonder if GW has forgotten that 40k is supposed to be satirical.
GW has always been targetting kids as well as adults. Remember the "SPACE CRUSADE! NOW WITH EVEN MORE ADVENTURES!" commercial. As for satirical parts, I think their presence has always been vastly overblown by fans. Official novels as early as mid-2000s often take the setting deadly seriously. Or dead serious, I don't know which form is applicable in this case.
lord_blackfang wrote: Any 40k movie/series should end abruptly 4 hours in, with the narrator explaining they're out of time and which side would probably have won.
They should probably invite OnTableTop to write a scenario. The battle will end with both sides being tired of throwing weapons at each other, and generals just duel it out in the middle.
Come to think of it, it's probably going to happen anyway.
60% of us on Dakka got into Miniature Wargaming when we were 13 or under and the next 20% were under their 20s or just entering them.
GW has also, at least in the UK, been running schools programs and been tied into the Duke of Edenborough system for years. Staffers old and new have also spoken of how things like problem solving, maths, social skills, hand skills and such are often used as means to help convince parents that Warhammer is a good healthy wholesome hobby to get their kids into.
The whole idea that GW is diluting the setting is purely invented by people worried over nothing. Heck one can even argue that the hyper overblown grim-dark impression of the setting is in itself a childish impression blown up over the years in the minds eye of fans without them realising; without them noticing that its a grim dark setting but that not every part is ultra evil grim dark. Many of the dark elements are subtle and sly or slight etc..
Also with so many geeks now parents I'd wager that if we did that poll in, say, another 10 years time we might well see the poll even more heavily skewed toward the younger ages.
This is where GW’s physical stores are having a pay off. They’re typically laid out in a consumer friendly way. One game here, the next there, and organised by faction. Yes there are planograms sent out to dictate display.
Having the boards setup allows intro. And as folk of my generation (I’m 42) have had kids, and those kids have grown, they drag parents into GW in the same way we did. Except there’s now a reasonable chance their Dad will recognise hobby, at least from Hero Quest or Space Crusade, making them susceptible to being sucked back in. Get that done, and as a store you’re laughing.
And whilst genuine experience, it must remain anecdotal evidence, but in my former Store we had the son learning the ropes of the game, whilst Mum and his Sisters were into the painting, and pretty bloody good at it they were too.
Of course, my experiences there were in a distinctly, near painfully Upper Middle Class town, where the parents typically weren’t short a Bob or two. And as I’ve mentioned before, when you get a socially awkward Noob, and they not only learn the hobby but some social skills (and greater confidence), the parents will often spend, spend, spend to keep those benefits coming. It does warm the cockles to see such a kid come out of their shell and make friends. More so when you learn they’ve had friends made in-store over for gaming sessions at home.
I'd argue to a degree GW is diluting the setting - but only because the lore isn't as thick as "when I was a child".
Partly this may be the problem of getting older and things lose their poetry. But, while I'd have to go and check, I seem to remember the older edition core rules (2nd, 3rd, maybe 4th?) had a mountain of "lore". This is the Imperium, it works like this etc. I think they kept this up to 5th.
Whereas from then on you still sort of have that - but it seems shallower, thinner. Its a copy of a copy and all that. Its less definitive. We see the confusion in how 8th wanted to take a big 100 year leap into the future - only for 9th to go "no, steady on, back where you were".
To do an odd parallel - the 4th WHFB edition High Elf Army Book had a history of the world. I don't want to praise it too much (although as a 10 year old or whatever it was excellent) - but it had something special. And subsequent army books essentially contained the same fluff - but told it in an abridged, worse sort of way. It grew thinner I guess. Turns of phrase were lost.
Take off the nostalgia goggles and you'll find that the "thick" aspect is just shifted.
You bring up the time-jump. I don't find it a dilution or somehow making the world shallower that they chose to ignore the "hundred years in the future" bit. It's not like it was actually accompanied by lore showing lots of progression spread out over many years.
Finding out that the change is because the Imperium has had the calendar wrong for a hundred years adds an element to the setting. It showcases the truly ridiculous bureaucracy that exists.
It's not like events are showcased from non-Imperial calendars anyways. We aren't shown things on an Orky Before Krumpin' or After Krumpin' calendar for the timeframe to give an example.
3rd ed Tyranid codex had only a few pages of lore - the current ones have a good meaty chunk. Though I have noticed a loss there, the latest codex have dropped the unit lore pages, which is a huge shame as I really loved reading a page or two about each unit in the game; what they did, what they were etc.... Esp when new things come along.
Tyel wrote: I'd argue to a degree GW is diluting the setting - but only because the lore isn't as thick as "when I was a child".
Partly this may be the problem of getting older and things lose their poetry. But, while I'd have to go and check, I seem to remember the older edition core rules (2nd, 3rd, maybe 4th?) had a mountain of "lore". This is the Imperium, it works like this etc. I think they kept this up to 5th.
Whereas from then on you still sort of have that - but it seems shallower, thinner. Its a copy of a copy and all that. Its less definitive. We see the confusion in how 8th wanted to take a big 100 year leap into the future - only for 9th to go "no, steady on, back where you were".
To do an odd parallel - the 4th WHFB edition High Elf Army Book had a history of the world. I don't want to praise it too much (although as a 10 year old or whatever it was excellent) - but it had something special. And subsequent army books essentially contained the same fluff - but told it in an abridged, worse sort of way. It grew thinner I guess. Turns of phrase were lost.
Or there’s just less lore for us old timers to discover for the first time.
I’ll point to the excellence that is the Leagues of Votann Codex as my evidence. Completely new, and lots of interesting depths and hints.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Or there’s just less lore for us old timers to discover for the first time.
I’ll point to the excellence that is the Leagues of Votann Codex as my evidence. Completely new, and lots of interesting depths and hints.
Well yes - but its because they stop moving forward.
So Votann is good - cos its new. Yes, Ancient Squat lore etc - but really, its stepping on ghosts from several decades.
Whereas looking at say Dark Eldar. I expect 10th edition will have the same fluff as 9th edition. Which was the same as 8th - except without the plot forward bits, cos we aren't moving forward 100 years now. Which meant it was basically 7th. Which was a worse version of 5th.
There's no obvious reason why "Dark Eldar lore" should have been put in stasis for 10 years. The same with everyone else. GW just seem to have lost confidence to move forward. Possibly because people are inevitably hostile. But I don't think its impossible - which is why I was in favour of the jump in 8th.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Or there’s just less lore for us old timers to discover for the first time.
I’ll point to the excellence that is the Leagues of Votann Codex as my evidence. Completely new, and lots of interesting depths and hints.
Well yes - but its because they stop moving forward.
So Votann is good - cos its new. Yes, Ancient Squat lore etc - but really, its stepping on ghosts from several decades.
Whereas looking at say Dark Eldar. I expect 10th edition will have the same fluff as 9th edition. Which was the same as 8th - except without the plot forward bits, cos we aren't moving forward 100 years now. Which meant it was basically 7th. Which was a worse version of 5th.
There's no obvious reason why "Dark Eldar lore" should have been put in stasis for 10 years. The same with everyone else. GW just seem to have lost confidence to move forward. Possibly because people are inevitably hostile. But I don't think its impossible - which is why I was in favour of the jump in 8th.
Bits being stripped away with each edition in the Dark Eldar include special characters, whose backstory adds quite a bit to an otherwise generically evil force - Malys is mentioned in passing, but not in detail. The vorgani were only introduced in 8th edition, and have already been eliminated from 9th. Even Vect's rise to power has been trimemd down to bare bones, while two whole pages are devoted to a random warzone description. Pictures and descriptions of weapons have gone, the list goes on. As rule space grows in codexes, the background shrinks.
I was disappointed when I first got Codex Necrons because I didn’t get juicy background on the plethora of new toys.
This is also why I can’t stand 3rd Edition. Sure 2nd Ed, like Rogue Trader before it grew into an unholy mess and needed a rules diet, but unlike 2nd Ed (which refined rules and background) 3rd Ed went entirely too far, churning out anaemic, flaccid rules devoid of any character, and all but stripped background out of the Codexes.
4th-8th had a much better balance, Codex wise. Particularly Dark Eldar circa 2010 when they finally got a new Codex and some actual, y’know, Background. Necrons too really, though their original 3rd/4th (can’t remember exactly which) Codex did have quite a lot for it’s era.
In fairness when GW stripped some of those Eldar Characters was the same time they stripped the Tyranid ones too - and a lot of that was because GW got into a habit of adding lots of new named characters and such and never making a model for them. That ended with Chapterhouse and whilst I disliked the loss of many things, I liked that it took away mandatory converting for people to get all the units in the book.
I like converting, but I don't think it should be a mandatory requirement to field your army.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: 4th-8th had a much better balance, Codex wise. Particularly Dark Eldar circa 2010 when they finally got a new Codex and some actual, y’know, Background. Necrons too really, though their original 3rd/4th (can’t remember exactly which) Codex did have quite a lot for it’s era.
Those books had their own issues though, what with Jervis' insistence on including a "Wargear" section that ended up being half pages references to other parts of the book (thereby defeating the purpose of the wargear section), and rules that multiple units had being set on unit-specific pages. Some units had their rules in three different parts of a Codex. I think one in the Marine book may have even needed 4 different pages to get their full rules.
I'd never seen the half-decayed aquila anywhere but it was pointed out it's in the Age of Darkness rulebook (which I own, but have never opened), so it seems likely to have been chosen deliberately.
I don't think I can overstate how much of a mistake I think them adapting the Horus Heresy would be. Speaking for myself, between the grotesquely bloated novel series, Adeptus Titanicus, and the 30k rules, I'm so goddamn sick of the Heresy, brother-on-brother drama between the Primarchs, and endless clashes between power-armored space marines. Which part of that sprawling mega-juggernaut of a story do people think could be adapted to film or television?
Overread wrote: How have the action figures, candles and such hurt the franchise? I mean really?
The rules are the same as ever; the models are still awesome; the paintwork is great; the lore and stories the same.
I've not really seen any harm with the merch. IF anything most people like it. They just engage with different parts. Some love the action toys, some the plushies, some like the wallets and bowls.
Plus all the merch and such costs GW 0. Actually it doesn't just cost them 0 it generates money for them!
It hasn't, from a fiscal perspective sure, but it's just one of those inevitable steps that all brands/franchises that began as a focused labour of love for a specific audience, that then end up becoming very popular take on the road to soulless consumer corporatism. It's an inevitability for basically anything that becomes popular, but it's still doesn't mean it's not sad.
I feel like a lot of things I talk about these days involve phrasing like 'money isn't everything'
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Or there’s just less lore for us old timers to discover for the first time.
I’ll point to the excellence that is the Leagues of Votann Codex as my evidence. Completely new, and lots of interesting depths and hints.
Well yes - but its because they stop moving forward.
So Votann is good - cos its new. Yes, Ancient Squat lore etc - but really, its stepping on ghosts from several decades.
Whereas looking at say Dark Eldar. I expect 10th edition will have the same fluff as 9th edition. Which was the same as 8th - except without the plot forward bits, cos we aren't moving forward 100 years now. Which meant it was basically 7th. Which was a worse version of 5th.
There's no obvious reason why "Dark Eldar lore" should have been put in stasis for 10 years. The same with everyone else. GW just seem to have lost confidence to move forward. Possibly because people are inevitably hostile. But I don't think its impossible - which is why I was in favour of the jump in 8th.
Well 40k wasn't supposed to be story but setting for players to make out their own stories.
Then players decided they don't want to be creative and just have GW feed us for "evolving story". So we got cartoon level "story" where Abbadon sends his lietnaunt for same planet all the time getting kicked all the time "I'll get you next time!"
Because ultimately nothing dramatic CAN happen because sales of models can't be hurt.
Saturday cartoon hello, Because players decided they don't want to be creative and prefer saturday cartoon.
I've seen a race of ancient murder robots arise from the ashes only to be discovered to be the ancient once masters of the Galaxy cursed with robotic form after waging war on the former near gods of the setting and on other entities calling themselves gods.
I've seen a race of plucky fishpeople arise on the fringe and, whilst shielded with mystery, they've managed to do what many have never managed too and carve out a chunk of the galaxy for themselves. Enough that each time their lore advances they are steadily gaining ground and understanding the Galaxy around them. Sure they still have to properly learn about Demons and they are still coming to terms with the fact that this insane group of humans, who call themselves the Imperium, really do own most of the Galaxy and really are half insane!
I've seen the Imperium nearly cut in two; Hive Fleets maul Space Marine home worlds including the much armoured Ultramarines; heck we are on the verge of the Eldar potentially shifting in narrative from a dying race who meddles but ultimately avoids major conflicts as much as they can; into one that's on fire and might well be the hallmarks of them pushing to gain territories and carve out a larger chunk of the Galaxy for themselves.
The narrative does move and shift and change. It just doesn't do the whole "And then the Imperium wiped out the Orks to the last Ork and the Orks were no more from then on". Many of the stories by BL show major events and dramatic moments; some that affect only a few characters, some whole sectors and divisions.
Sure there are many elements of the narrative that don't change, but that's because its a setting and backdrop.
As for the whole "players don't want to be creative". I think that's just silly. Especially at a time where we've seen projects multiple animations, stories, artwork, narrative games, themed armies and more. Heck we live in an age where GW has employed multiple creative people who were not just telling a story but doing so with some very good quality animation work. People pouring hour upon hour into such creations.
We live in an age where there is an insane amount of player created story and content. Sure GW creates more because not everyone is a skilled writer, painter or animator. And because we wanted more of the foundation that GW began. That's just people wanting more out of what they love
Agamemnon2 wrote: I'd never seen the half-decayed aquila anywhere but it was pointed out it's in the Age of Darkness rulebook (which I own, but have never opened), so it seems likely to have been chosen deliberately.
I wasn't even thinking about the half decayed thing, I was just thinking that the imperial eagle with the upswept wings, the randomly longer feather on each wing, and 2 lightning bolts is a Great Crusade/Heresy era thing. I think that's what's referred to as the "palatine aquila" and is what the Emporer's Children wore.
But you're right, the half decayed version is actually in the AoD rulebook, it's on page 6.
You can see it at 7:50 in GMG's review of the AoD book...
But there are playing toy soldiers and playing toy soldiers. I dislike narratives that are based on crushing hope, especially for kids.
What are you doing into 40k then? There's not a whole lot of hope in that background, at best the Imperium survives to fight another day. 8e onwards has been even more gloomy, Indomitus Crusade aside and even that only restored some of the losses.
Agamemnon2 wrote: I'd never seen the half-decayed aquila anywhere but it was pointed out it's in the Age of Darkness rulebook (which I own, but have never opened), so it seems likely to have been chosen deliberately.
I wasn't even thinking about the half decayed thing, I was just thinking that the imperial eagle with the upswept wings, the randomly longer feather on each wing, and 2 lightning bolts is a Great Crusade/Heresy era thing. I think that's what's referred to as the "palatine aquila" and is what the Emporer's Children wore.
But you're right, the half decayed version is actually in the AoD rulebook, it's on page 6.
You can see it at 7:50 in GMG's review of the AoD book...
I have no idea if either the stylised imperial eagle or the half decayed version of it has been used in any materials other than Heresy era stuff.
But in the official announcements the project is clearly named „Warhammer 40,000“ and not Heresy or 30k. Of course this all might just point to them not yet knowing where exactly they will go, but I wouldn‘t assume a HH series just from the fancy aquila. Maybe it‘s just there because it somehow fits custodes, given that it’s Cavill we‘re talking about.
In my opinion the use of the Horus Heresy chicken doesn't have to mean full blown Heresy on screen. It's a time of legend in current 40k. Just think of all the movies about ancient civilizations and artifacts that get dug up and start a plot in the present. It could easily be something like that. It gives a chance for exposition on the setting to get new people up to speed on 40k and a few grand scale battle scenes for eye candy without committing to translating the mountain of Heresy novels to the screen.
Overread wrote: I've not really seen any harm with the merch.
Are you really so quick to forget that time when the plumbing in Nottingham exploded? That was GWHQ mass trialing the Warhammer branded hot sauce. And you claim no harm was done!
Grumpy Gnome wrote: And between GW game shops targeting 12 years and teen focused coming of age adventure novels I do wonder if GW has forgotten that 40k is supposed to be satirical.
Time for this old man to yell at clouds, but yeah, I think GW actually did forget. I don't think what satire survived into the grimdarkening of 3rd ed lived long enough to find itself in the comic book super hero driven world that started to take shape around 5th ed.
I don't think satirical 40k exists outside of a few marketing efforts anymore. These days the push is for a setting in which super heroic characters duke it out all serious like, at least in intention.
I wouldn't expect a cinematic universe to deviate from that standard. In fact I argued before that 40k has shifted into the character driven narrative suspiciously close in time to when the Marvel movies really took off. It's still 40k, so maybe the Marvel humor won't be there, but gravity surrounding super heroic character action? Yeah, I think that's where a live action 40k effort will be headed.
Agamemnon2 wrote: I'd never seen the half-decayed aquila anywhere but it was pointed out it's in the Age of Darkness rulebook (which I own, but have never opened), so it seems likely to have been chosen deliberately.
I wasn't even thinking about the half decayed thing, I was just thinking that the imperial eagle with the upswept wings, the randomly longer feather on each wing, and 2 lightning bolts is a Great Crusade/Heresy era thing. I think that's what's referred to as the "palatine aquila" and is what the Emporer's Children wore.
But you're right, the half decayed version is actually in the AoD rulebook, it's on page 6.
You can see it at 7:50 in GMG's review of the AoD book...
I have no idea if either the stylised imperial eagle or the half decayed version of it has been used in any materials other than Heresy era stuff.
But in the official announcements the project is clearly named „Warhammer 40,000“ and not Heresy or 30k. Of course this all might just point to them not yet knowing where exactly they will go, but I wouldn‘t assume a HH series just from the fancy aquila. Maybe it‘s just there because it somehow fits custodes, given that it’s Cavill we‘re talking about.
I'm certainly not going to say I definitely think it'll be HH, too early to say, but given they used that symbol I'm leaning that direction for now.
I think even if it was a HH thing, they'd might still use "Warhammer 40k" to market it, since that is a name everyone associates with the setting, even people who aren't wargamers and know nothing about the Horus Heresy.
And it fitting the Custodes? Have they ever used this symbol in reference to the Custodes? I'm not a GW historian so I have no idea, but I haven't seen it used for the Custodes, and the Custodes have a bunch of their own symbols (including their own stylised Imperial Eagles if that's what they wanted to go with).
Of course if they release another announcement in a day saying that, no, it's nothing to do with HH, I'll be neither surprised nor disappointed... it's just curious that they decided to use that specific symbol for the announcement and not something else. Maybe it's as simple as someone decided they liked that symbol and didn't think much about what it represented.
I think it's more likely that they just had the symbol animated and hadn't used it yet.
We are a long way from the show having any work done on it's graphics. It won't have a script yet. It probably only just has a treatment.
I would generally say that the license agreement would refer to Age of Darkness rather than 40K as they would be two separate bits of IP that need to be licensed separately, so I think it's extremely unlikely to be HH based.
The Phazer wrote: I would generally say that the license agreement would refer to Age of Darkness rather than 40K as they would be two separate bits of IP that need to be licensed separately, so I think it's extremely unlikely to be HH based.
I will not be Heresy as GW is promoting its NuMarines, if it has Marines they will be Primaris with some Custodes possibly as cameos.
Every single promotional piece of material has been NuMarines, every new game, book, art etc.
Also I very much doubt Amazon is going to throw the budget required at HH given the recent failure of "lord of the rings" rings of power, both GW and Amazon will be risk adverse, GW because this is their primary IP and Amazon because they really want to get a crowbar into the streaming wars and ultimately win it.
Money talks, BS walks so neither is going to allow this to fail on the scale of ROP.
Londinium wrote: This thread is very quickly turning into the whole 'The Old World has a decent chance of being 10mm' nonsense.
Sooo, something that never happened?
People never said there was a decent chance of TOW being 10mm, it was just being discussed as something some people would like to have seen and a potential way to get around the huge number of SKUs required for WHFB.
But, if you wanted to draw parallels with what was being discussed in that thread, it'd be a bit like if when GW announced the return of square bases they showed an Epic40k square base
But anyway, I don't really think it's likely to be HH, but it's odd that GW used a HH symbol to announce it when they could have used a bunch of other iconography that is more in line with 40k, so hey, maybe.
Formosa is talking a load of gak anyway. There have been more non-Primaris-related releases in terms of books, games, and art than Primaris foccused. In fact, Space Marine 2 seems to be the first game to properly feature them.
Gert wrote: Formosa is talking a load of gak anyway. There have been more non-Primaris-related releases in terms of books, games, and art than Primaris foccused. In fact, Space Marine 2 seems to be the first game to properly feature them.
Yeah like all those First Born Joy To... oh wait...
The Phazer wrote: I would generally say that the license agreement would refer to Age of Darkness rather than 40K as they would be two separate bits of IP that need to be licensed separately, so I think it's extremely unlikely to be HH based.
Have we seen the agreement?
When the official announcement of the agreement is literally titled „Amazon Studios Secures First-of-its-Kind Rights to Warhammer 40,000“ and in the text it says that Amazon „has secured global rights to Warhammer 40,000“, I‘d be willing to bet that this reflects words in the actual agreement. It might still include adjacent IP, but it’s pretty clear where the focus is.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Yeah like all those First Born Joy To... oh wait...
And to counter I bring all of the non-Primaris books, games, and art pieces released since 2017. Primaris have taken the model (and toy) limelight but claiming that every single piece of GW media is Primaris focussed is nonsense.
The fact you have to extend that time line back 5 years to try and counter the amount of Primaris releases just further reinforces the argument against your assertion, Gert.
Platuan4th wrote: The fact you have to extend that time line back 5 years to try and counter the amount of Primaris releases just further reinforces the argument against your assertion, Gert.
Uhhhh
That's literally when Primaris were introduced. He's actually being the fairest he can be by including the entirely of time they existed.
Gert wrote: Formosa is talking a load of gak anyway. There have been more non-Primaris-related releases in terms of books, games, and art than Primaris foccused. In fact, Space Marine 2 seems to be the first game to properly feature them.
Yeah like all those First Born Joy To... oh wait...
To be fair, there are the dreadnoughts, but even those were disappointing. Give me classic boxnought, dangit!
Gert wrote: Formosa is talking a load of gak anyway. There have been more non-Primaris-related releases in terms of books, games, and art than Primaris foccused. In fact, Space Marine 2 seems to be the first game to properly feature them.
Yeah like all those First Born Joy To... oh wait...
To be fair, there are the dreadnoughts, but even those were disappointing. Give me classic boxnought, dangit!
The classic Boxdread is awful and the Redemptor at least looks like it can walk.
Platuan4th wrote: The fact you have to extend that time line back 5 years to try and counter the amount of Primaris releases just further reinforces the argument against your assertion, Gert.
Uhhhh
That's literally when Primaris were introduced. He's actually being the fairest he can be by including the entirely of time they existed.
Platuan4th wrote: The fact you have to extend that time line back 5 years to try and counter the amount of Primaris releases just further reinforces the argument against your assertion, Gert.
I mean if you want I can just do this year but it'll take some time to catalogue every single release in terms of models, video games, promo material, novels and the such.
Yeah, 'cause Formosa was talking about everythingGW has produced when he said what he said. He wasn't at all alluding to 40k productions that heavily push Marines in virtually all arenas. No, he meant AoS and Blood Bowl as well.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Yeah, 'cause Formosa was talking about everythingGW has produced when he said what he said. He wasn't at all alluding to 40k productions that heavily push Marines in virtually all arenas. No, he meant AoS and Blood Bowl as well.
Even with 40k there are significantly more non-Primaris games, books and releases in general. As I said earlier, in terms of games only Space Marine 2 has featured Primaris and it isn't even out yet. For books that is going to take a long time to check and for film content (animations and the such) there has been minimal Primaris presence. In fact, the one major free animation is Firstborn Astartes.
If we're suddenly counting big cardboard cut-outs as the only things GW has made then yeah but then we're just being disingenuous aren't we?
IIRC, the game Battle Sector has Primaris marines (in fact, my recollection is that it's a plot point; the Primaris are newly-arrived to the chapter, and this is their chance to prove themselves to the vets).
Dark Tide, all depictions in statuary are Primaris.
Battle sector as you say.
Space marine 2
Rogue trader looks like the space wolf is primaris but I may be wrong.
Lost Crusade
Tacticus
May be some others but that is off the top of my head, Demonhunters I do not think counts since we do not have primaris grey knights... sadly.
Then we have the newer novels almost exclusively featuring Primaris on the cover art with obvious exception to legacy novels.
all combined is shows a concentrated marketing effort to homogenize the image of 40k as an IP and Brand, the new series will more than likely also be along these lines.
Shakalooloo wrote: The Panini stickers/ trading cards/ whatever are all Primaris, right?
A mix, there's some termies in there, and I think a handful of others. The main thing about the stickers is that 90% of it is old art so there's a greater amount of Firstborne to pick from than primaris (but they're pretty close these days)
This is from 11 months ago but worth watching for this discussion…. Cavill talking about 40k in various different interviews. You can get hints on what he might like to bring to the show from what he says.
To be fair a lot of hollywood actors have odd things in their contracts. Some of it also makes sense - there's more than a few actors who end up "type cast" into certain roles and thus many actors protect their "brand" of what kind of roles they do and don't play and what they will do within those roles.
It helps project their "image" as an actor.
It's the same reason some actors end up always typecast as good/bad characters. .
And Vin shouldn't be Horus - he needs to get on and make another Riddick film
Why always the talk of Vin Diesel being in it?
Where is mention that he likes Warhammer?
I know he’s a big D&D player. But thought that was all.
Overread, also, he is working on the fourth Riddick film.
I always found it interesting he got the rights to that series (and then followed on to self fund it) all because of his appearance in Tokyo Drift.
If there's a movie and a series, the series could begin with the Cybernetic Revolt since AI is a hot topic. There'd be plenty of episodes starting there.
The movie could be anything 40k. Or maybe the other way around.
I know there are a number of Warhammer fans amongst the wrestling community such as Joe and Shayna Baszler, she wore Night Lords themed gear this past weekend and has had a variety of loyalist/chaos chapters represented on her gear.
It's perfect for episodic TV, you can have Amberley off-screen narrate exposition, the stories in general are a bit more humorous than 'ra ra genocide ra fundamentalism', Cains frequent travels allow for anything from large plots to 'monster of the week' style stories, and because he meets a lot of people and is a womanizer you can have your diversity and romance if you need them. Also, Cain often acts as a exposition dump to his acquaintances, so you have another opportunity to introduce the lore that's necessary for the episode without messing up the timing too much.
