Considering the special artwork on the boxes I tend to agree with my friend that these were probably originally meant for a larger release alongside a new and updated Space Marine codex.
Nothing really exciting in these boxes unless you are about to start a specific Space Marine army.
January points changes to space marines will probably shift a few of these. Then the rest will sit around on shelves until the updated marine supplements land.
Eldarsif wrote: Considering the special artwork on the boxes
Erm, it's not special. Half of it is years old, so I suspect the rest was commissioned for the SM supplements too, just didn't made the cut.
Lord Damocles wrote: I like how in the White Scars box everyone gets a bike... except Khan.
I'd say the fact this "battleforce" has only 10 models (and not even any big ones) it's even more conspicuous...
H.B.M.C. wrote: How many times does a clock have to be right before people stop assuming it's broken?
Except he was comically wrong again considering A) other source claimed the boxes first, so as usual the rumor was stolen, B) he initially claimed they will drop all at once with the codex (not staggered and without it), a mistake someone clueless blindly guessing would make. So yeah, if you ignore all the inconvenient bit and move the clock hands halfway through the face he was totes right. So when I can buy this plastic warhound titan he claims will drop any day now from midway through 7th edition?
But, fine, I give up, people want to sockpuppet for him, no skin off my back. Just hope the boots taste nice, at least. I will just have a laugh when it turns out the rest of the stuff he was spewing was wrong too (say, it's Sanguinor not Dante dropping and he will be ""vindicated"" with dumb claims mistaking one for the other was uNdErStAnDaBLe like in Vash case where he got every single thing wrong like usual)
Well, this kind of explains why Imperial Fists and Raven Guard Battleforces had different artwork than other x-mas Battleforces. I wonder if they become available again too.
The special characters are a bit of a hit on the discount unless you actually want to do those chapters, as they were for the Imperial Fists and Raven Guard ones, but if I didn't already have plenty of the relevant models I'd be tempted to get one of the boxes. I could get some use out of three of the four boxes. That's pretty decent considering I don't like Phobos or jump Primaris, but they've all been stuffed in the Raven Guard box so they won't bother anyone. Not bad.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Love the out-of-place on foot character in the White Scar box. Peak GW silliness there.
You are the silly one here, that man obvious needs a Thunderhawk/Storm Eagle or whatever is the "correct" choice these days
Remember the old Siege of Terra diorama with the real Khan riding a Rhino? That's why Khan Junior doesn't have a bike, so you can mount him on a Primaris pickup emulating his dad.
The longer I look at these models, the worse they look to me. Safe to say I'm not a fan of Primaris. Even the iconography and honourifics look silly and stormcasty
Cool. Nice of them to give you white scar upgrades in their box, despite the majority of the models being easy to build and don’t allow for easy customization
These do really feel like they were lined up and ready to drop with a new round of codex supplements.
Value on these is a little odd. For the most part, the are hard skew boxes. With named characters. Like the RG and IF ones, which doubled down on phobos and heavy intercessors, you get IH (Dreads!) WS (Bikes!). The Salamander and Ultramarine ones are a little more balanced. Although they are still in the “you don’t want a duplicate” camp. Ultras due to the double named characters, and Salamanders due to how many intercessors do you need?
With the content how many of these are playable boxes? Good for a starting player? (mostly no) But if you are adding to an existing collection you probably already have some of the kits in the box, and due to the focused nature you might find yourself with more than you need.
They might be fine as a second step, where someone only has half a starter, or a start collecting/combat patrol. But I don’t see a lot of broad appeal on these.
GaroRobe wrote: Cool. Nice of them to give you white scar upgrades in their box, despite the majority of the models being easy to build and don’t allow for easy customization
Makes the lack of the upgrade sprue in the Raven Guard set even stranger though.
Nevelon wrote: These do really feel like they were lined up and ready to drop with a new round of codex supplements.
They really do.
GaroRobe wrote: Cool. Nice of them to give you white scar upgrades in their box, despite the majority of the models being easy to build and don’t allow for easy customization
Really not impressed by any of these boxes. But then, between these and the other battleforces, it feels like they're really trying to aim at new players, what with including named characters and all that. Ultimately, no skin off my nose. Hardly need any more space marine models.
I wouldn't be surprised if it came to light that these were supposed to go alongside updated supplements. But here we are, still waiting for the rest of the Guard and World Eaters and by the time we get those it'll only be like 4-5 months before 10th, and having supplements or a codex out for that short a time would be a particularly rough slap in the face.
I am tempted by the Salamanders box…I do want to paint a new successor chapter and I have pretty much no Intercessors (first one was White Scars successor).
H.B.M.C. wrote: You really hate Valrak. Dude lives rent free in your head.
To be fair, it's only natural to hate Valrak. He's a vacuous puff of nothing.
He’s a decent source of rumours, and other folk fine him entertaining.
It could be a British Humour thing. We tend to be into stuff other people don’t find funny. I mean, Mrs Brown’s Boys has its fans in Britain. and that’s crap.
drbored wrote: Really not impressed by any of these boxes. But then, between these and the other battleforces, it feels like they're really trying to aim at new players, what with including named characters and all that. Ultimately, no skin off my nose. Hardly need any more space marine models.
I wouldn't be surprised if it came to light that these were supposed to go alongside updated supplements. But here we are, still waiting for the rest of the Guard and World Eaters and by the time we get those it'll only be like 4-5 months before 10th, and having supplements or a codex out for that short a time would be a particularly rough slap in the face.
Irbis wrote: Erm, it's not special. Half of it is years old, so I suspect the rest was commissioned for the SM supplements too, just didn't made the cut.
Special compared to the non-Marine army boxes, which just featured model shots rather than a unified style with artwork.
flaherty wrote: They'll almost certainly be in the same price band as the Imperial Fist and Raven Guard boxes that came out alongside the Christmas Battleforces.
Egyptian Space Zombie wrote: To me, that's too expensive for what those boxes have. You are paying battleforce prices for something which just doesn't have the same value.
Well about 25% saving. Guess you aren't buying these models non-discounted then
Back when they never discounted anything (the largest starter sets being an exception I suppose) I used to get more excited about any discount and could talk myself into buying stuff on the strength of the discount alone. These days with more "discount" products available (big starter sets, Combat patrols, Christmas boxes, partworks etc), not so much. I might get the IH box, might not, I think five years ago I'd have been aiming to get that plus one of the others too.
Dysartes wrote: Looking at the boxes, I'd lean towards the Salamanders or Ultramarines being the most generally useful, if you don't mind the faction characters
Salamanders are big letdown by a huge pile of Intercessors. If some of these were heavy Intercessors, the box would be amazing. Alas.
As for usefulness, I'd rate Iron Hands and IF high if you like dreads or want heavy company. Raven Guard is good too if you find some non-skull helmets to conver Reivers into Infiltrators (funnily enough very easy thanks to included bolters, which like Reivers themselves are among the best SM designs, just let down thanks to below trash rule writing ) And the characters aren't a big problem either, it's easy to 'genericize' them with leftover parts from regular kits...
And I can't help but notice Deathwatch had been forgotten again as the only supplement SM army. Bravo GW
I'm not seeing Dark Angels out Blood Angels either, so DW aren't the only ones.
First, Supplements are the original 7 books. DA, BA, BT, and SW, as too divergent, had Codex books through 8th and only got kinda-sorta 'supplements' late into 9th but most people still call them Codex because they rely on completely different units than the rest of 'generic' SM. Second, all four of these got a lot of units through 9th edition (and in BA and DA case, also clearly big dump coming in 10th) so you can hardly call them forgotten. Third, it's not even the first case GW forgets DW (see lack of primaris upgrade sprue, named character, and all the other stuff other supplements got for even worse examples). So, way to completely miss the point I was making
And I can't help but notice Deathwatch had been forgotten again as the only supplement SM army. Bravo GW
I'm not seeing Dark Angels out Blood Angels either, so DW aren't the only ones.
They've already got Combat Patrol boxes, that would be my guess for their exclusion.
And they all already have 9th edition codexes.
These Battleforces and the IF/RG ones where probably meant to release together with new supplements the their chapters (that would also explain the different design) but wether they cancelled the supplements because everything was delayed or another reason those books are probably not coming so they released the boxsets as Battleforces instead
And I can't help but notice Deathwatch had been forgotten again as the only supplement SM army. Bravo GW
I'm not seeing Dark Angels out Blood Angels either, so DW aren't the only ones.
First, Supplements are the original 7 books. DA, BA, BT, and SW, as too divergent, had Codex books through 8th and only got kinda-sorta 'supplements' late into 9th but most people still call them Codex because they rely on completely different units than the rest of 'generic' SM. Second, all four of these got a lot of units through 9th edition (and in BA and DA case, also clearly big dump coming in 10th) so you can hardly call them forgotten. Third, it's not even the first case GW forgets DW (see lack of primaris upgrade sprue, named character, and all the other stuff other supplements got for even worse examples). So, way to completely miss the point I was making
We had Codex: Deathwatch in 8th, not Codex Supplement Deathwatch - that only came about in 9th. There were 6 Codex Supplements releases alongside the second 8th edition SM 'dex, not 7 - Ultramarines, White Scars, Raven Guard, the infamous Iron Hands, Imperial Fists and Salamanders.
Black Templars are really the only one of DA/BA/BT/SW to get a lot of releases alongside their 9th ed books - seven kits and an upgrade sprue, from what I can count - off the top of my head, BA only got Mephiston, SW got the Hounds of Morkai (and I'll note still don't have their Primaris Lt. in a clampack), and I thinkDA got Master Lazarus. Sure, they gained units from being a Codex Supplement, but not the dedicated releases of yesteryear, unfortunately.
If you're going to go off on someone, check your facts first.
And if you don't want people to miss your point, try making it clearly first. Given your factual errors, I'm still not sure what your point is meant to be.
WarGamers Hub wrote:Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but I have just spoken to GW and all of the Marine Battleforces are delayed into Australia and New Zealand.
I wouldn't be surprised if we get Boarding Patrols for all/most of factions during the Arks of Omens campaign and one Battleforce connected to the lead faction of each book
Wonder what the price point on these is going to be? I could use more heavy intercessors, and am not opposed to another captain. Assault intercessors also have some use.
Pretty big price difference between the two Boarding Patrols
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Platuan4th wrote: I'm guessing they'll be the same cost as the Combat Patrols considering they're more or less aiming for the same point cost in both types of set.
But Combat Patrols include more expensive kits while these only have infantry
Also same price as combat patrols would mean the SM one would barely be cheaper
It's his ship and he wants to kick your ass off of it personally?
He has to make sure that RandomMacGuffin#42069 is conquered, but being a cranky old man he can't trust his underlings to do it right and/or not to frak off with it for their own gain?
In 1997 there was a battle report where Abby and two dozen of his closest bodyguards teleported down to punch a couple of Orks in the face because they had been rude to them. It ended with the nurgle lieutenant being set on fire, falling into the village latrine and exploding, while Abby had a teleport mishap and was stuck murdering gretchin for 6 turns.
Price will be interesting on the boarding patrols. I never got around to buying Abaddon for one reason or another, but have been meaning to since his release. I'm interested in all the models in the box, so this might be pretty good for me.
It's like one of those RTS story missions that requires the hero on the map but still only lets you start out with a few squads of tier one infantry. Don't worry, once he sets up his base on the boarded ship and researches new technologies, his elite Cultist bodyguard will soon be replaced with his more commonly known elite Terminator bodyguard.
I am intrigued, and have no prior experience with the assault intercessor kit. the guy the first in and down from the top left. Seems to be armed only with a 4-pack of Dr Pepper, and his angry fist. Is that supposed to be some kind of breaching charge, or has a sword been airbrushed out of the image? Or actually, is he just armed with grenades? (cue jokes about competence in his role and the the massive cranial bionic he also has )
Fergie0044 wrote: The 10 possessed having duplicate poses on the box art makes me sad.
The possessed only have 5 poses. The only alternate parts are arms and heads. Well and whether or not you want an Icon and whether you want a dude stepping on a rock or a dead Primaris.
Platuan4th wrote: The possessed only have 5 poses. The only alternate parts are arms and heads. Well and whether or not you want an Icon and whether you want a dude stepping on a rock or a dead Primaris.
Which is why I'm sad. Ufff, how the mighty have fallen
tneva82 wrote: Abbadon box says 10 marines, pic has 5. How's the sprues? Is it possible to have 5 or is it sprue of 5 marines duplicated?
The Legionnaire box makes 10. The sprue break down doesn't work for splitting it into only 5 models: all 10 leg sets are one sprue, front torso are another, weapons and backpacks on a 3rd.
It seems safe to say that the Cultists and Possessed didn't sell as well as GW hoped?
The Possessed are great models, let down a little by their lack of posing options, the Cultists are...fine. I presume the main issue with them is the price? The cultists in particular are terribly priced, especially as they contain little or no options, even for headswaps.
Depending on discount I'll be getting the larger Chaos box, even though I have all of the kits already.
The discount for the smaller box needs to be a big one for me to consider buying, I'm a sucker for all things Chaos but the Cultist price point really did piss me off.
tneva82 wrote: Abbadon box says 10 marines, pic has 5. How's the sprues? Is it possible to have 5 or is it sprue of 5 marines duplicated?
The Legionnaire box makes 10. The sprue break down doesn't work for splitting it into only 5 models: all 10 leg sets are one sprue, front torso are another, weapons and backpacks on a 3rd.
Ah good. For a change mistake is the way that is player beneficitial
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Undead_Love-Machine wrote: It seems safe to say that the Cultists and Possessed didn't sell as well as GW hoped?
Doubt these were even designed before sale times were made. Release schedule is set well ahead time.
I wonder if Abaddon can even fit through the doors in a Boarding Action missions, pretty sure they limit basesto be no bigger than what Terminators are on these days?
That and I'm sure he'll eat up a lot of those 500pts. So yeah, an odd choice.
Tsagualsa wrote: In 1997 there was a battle report where Abby and two dozen of his closest bodyguards teleported down to punch a couple of Orks in the face because they had been rude to them. It ended with the nurgle lieutenant being set on fire, falling into the village latrine and exploding, while Abby had a teleport mishap and was stuck murdering gretchin for 6 turns.
It is always important to give Abaddon something to do that is about right for his skill level...
In 1997 there was a battle report where Abby and two dozen of his closest bodyguards teleported down to punch a couple of Orks in the face because they had been rude to them. It ended with the nurgle lieutenant being set on fire, falling into the village latrine and exploding, while Abby had a teleport mishap and was stuck murdering gretchin for 6 turns.
Priceless! I will ad this to my official Abaddon canon. Ofcourse his teleport mishaped.
Deepstrike mishap had such a terrible impact on the gameplay back in the day. Good memories, but cant say I miss that function
Considering how long a lead time it is theorised GW needs to get a box set out, mainly due to packaging and printed materials etc, this theory someone had on YT (can't remember the channel name) is probably implausible, however it's worth a mull over.
GW are releasing so many battleforce and new style combat patrols due to trying to make the game a little more affordable to players at the moment due to the constraints people are under spending wise currently.
I don't think this is true, however, it will be interesting if bundles like this get rolled out further than arks of omens over the next year, and outside of special army box sets and the usual christmas period box sets. If more do come, then it may have more plausibility
Nice theory, if the 500pts game mode didn’t require an army’s value of terrain and a book to play it. They already had value sets. This is just trying to get existing players to buy more. As per.
I am laughing my head off at Abaddon in a 500pt Chaos list box… that’s also over 500pts.
Does anyone have any thoughts on when these new 3 box sets will be up for pre-order. I expected them to be announced for a ne, t Saturday pre-order but maybe they've been pushed back a week to make way for the new Guard? Thanks in advance
...they were released this weekend, dude - my local GW had the White Scars and Iron Hands ones in, and they are/were showing as available to order on the GW site yesterday.
Hang on - given the thread, were you meaning the boarding patrols or the big SM boxes for the other FF Chapters?
BrudeUK wrote: Sorry I should have been clearer, I was on about the new SM and 2 new CSM (one with Abby and the other with the Prince)
No word on a release date for them - which is a little odd, now that I think about it, as you'd've kinda expected them to have launched alongside the new format.
All I can say is they're not out yet, and they don't seem to be on next week's pre-order list, so you're looking at them going on pre-order on the 28th at the very earliest.
BrudeUK wrote: Sorry I should have been clearer, I was on about the new SM and 2 new CSM (one with Abby and the other with the Prince)
No word on a release date for them - which is a little odd, now that I think about it, as you'd've kinda expected them to have launched alongside the new format.
All I can say is they're not out yet, and they don't seem to be on next week's pre-order list, so you're looking at them going on pre-order on the 28th at the very earliest.
They were sitting on the shelf at miniature market today. So they are out.
BrudeUK wrote: Sorry I should have been clearer, I was on about the new SM and 2 new CSM (one with Abby and the other with the Prince)
No word on a release date for them - which is a little odd, now that I think about it, as you'd've kinda expected them to have launched alongside the new format.
All I can say is they're not out yet, and they don't seem to be on next week's pre-order list, so you're looking at them going on pre-order on the 28th at the very earliest.
They were sitting on the shelf at miniature market today. So they are out.
Given they're not on the GW store, Theophony, I'm going to assume you made the same mistake I did - we're not talking the Ultramarines/Salamanders/Iron Hands/White Scars boxes, we're talking about these three.
BrudeUK wrote: Sorry I should have been clearer, I was on about the new SM and 2 new CSM (one with Abby and the other with the Prince)
No word on a release date for them - which is a little odd, now that I think about it, as you'd've kinda expected them to have launched alongside the new format.
All I can say is they're not out yet, and they don't seem to be on next week's pre-order list, so you're looking at them going on pre-order on the 28th at the very earliest.
They were sitting on the shelf at miniature market today. So they are out.
Given they're not on the GW store, Theophony, I'm going to assume you made the same mistake I did - we're not talking the Ultramarines/Salamanders/Iron Hands/White Scars boxes, we're talking about these three.
BrudeUK wrote: Does anyone have any thoughts on when these new 3 box sets will be up for pre-order. I expected them to be announced for a ne, t Saturday pre-order but maybe they've been pushed back a week to make way for the new Guard? Thanks in advance
They knew when guard would be coming out like year ago...
They don't push things around at last moment. That ranges from flat out impossible to bloody expensive for GW. If something is delayed from original it's due to something serious in logistics. NOT to "oh let's release these now instead". They might have to delay them but then they would be released along with what originally was going to be released on that day. Not push back others.
Given they're not on the GW store, Theophony, I'm going to assume you made the same mistake I did - we're not talking the Ultramarines/Salamanders/Iron Hands/White Scars boxes, we're talking about these three.
Given the AoO branding I think it's safe to assume they'll release alongside Book 2, which should be in February. That might also be at the same time as World Eaters, or with the next KT box that I assume will be revealed at LVO.
Yeah any boxed set that includes multiple characters will always give a seemingly worse discount over regular units. That's due to the way GW kits are priced based on expected sales. Characters are marked up as each customer is likely to buy either zero or one over the lifetime of the kit, compared to something like a squad or tank where many players might own multiples.
Dysartes wrote: Not defending GW here, but if you look at the individual items...
Iron Father - £26
Prim Tech-Marine - £24
Intercessors - £36
Redemptor Dread - £42.50
Redemptor Dread - £42.50
£171
Iron Hands Primaris Upgrades - £16
£187
Depending on if you value the upgrade frames or not, that box saves either £41 or £57 over RRP - that's 24% to 30.5%.
Whether that says more about GW's normal prices than anything else, I'll leave it up to the reader.
These 2 minis are kind of hard to justify and does break a bit the idea of good value for the box set.
Iron Father - £26
Prim Tech-Marine - £24
Most characters are like that these days so nothing new.
When you pay £50 for two small sprues it's kind of a hit. When you put those expensive minis on a box set then all looks overpriced.
The box already has savings and if you manage to get them at a discount it makes them more bearable.
I mean I know GW regularly gets it in the neck for their firearms designs, but *shudder* is this a new low?
Primaris already had a play style similar to what Orks should be: blob up in close, lay down withering wait of fire while drawing in, and then charge to fisticuffs range to mop up survivors.
This weapon design just proves that they’re taking another step towards emulating their green superiors.
I dunno, I kind of like them for how over-the-top ridiculous they are. Keep in mind that Space Marines is the faction with aircraft like the Stormraven, probably the least aerodynamic flying thing in the game. Realism is best checked at the door when doing anything related to 40k.
I'm absolutely gonna get that set. Dark Angels probably don't need any of what's in there, but I still want it. I'll probably split the other box too because I want the new Azrael and I totally need more Intercessors (not) and Deathwing (actually I probably do need more of these now lol).
ZergSmasher wrote: I dunno, I kind of like them for how over-the-top ridiculous they are. Keep in mind that Space Marines is the faction with aircraft like the Stormraven, probably the least aerodynamic flying thing in the game. Realism is best checked at the door when doing anything related to 40k.
I'm absolutely gonna get that set. Dark Angels probably don't need any of what's in there, but I still want it. I'll probably split the other box too because I want the new Azrael and I totally need more Intercessors (not) and Deathwing (actually I probably do need more of these now lol).
There’s a really old piece of fluff about flight being lost when Terra descended into techno-barbarism and the Emperor brought it back. Also airfoils are not needed for lift when they are equipped with antigravity generators like the land speeders.
Which is a nice way of saying that they are so ugly the earth naturally repels them.
If I leaned one thing from aerospace engineering it's that anything can be a wing with the correct angle of attack and high enough speed. (Some constraints have been ignored in this statement)
Any news on the price of the box sets that go on preorder this week?
Brickfix wrote: If I leaned one thing from aerospace engineering it's that anything can be a wing with the correct angle of attack and high enough speed. (Some constraints have been ignored in this statement)
Any news on the price of the box sets that go on preorder this week?
beast_gts wrote: "Boarding Patrol: Space Marines" is up for pre-order this weekend, and is £65 for £101.50 worth of stuff.
("Balefleet Battleforce" is also going up at £130 for £201 worth of Chaos)
JWBS wrote: Anyone know if Boarding Patrols are quantity / time-limited?
The Space Marine Boarding Patrol set was certainly time limited, it had sold out everywhere that I looked online by 10:02.
I was on the Element site at 10:00 and it appeared on their site straight away as No Longer Available.
I knew that I'd have to be quick to nab one, but this is a joke. It's not like the contents were limited, GW seem to have just severely limited the production.
It's really, really frustrating.
At least I managed to grab the Chaos box set
EDIT: I'm talking about online discounters, I haven't even checked the GW site
On the GW's online store the Primaris boarding patrol box is marked while stock lasts, while the big Chaos Marine box is not. Let's see what that means for availability of the Chaos box.
Shame that if you want the Primaris you'll need a good bit of luck. When the one with Abaddon comes out I assume the same will be true there.
Undead_Love-Machine wrote: I don't really understand why they limit the quantities so much, they must understand the demand by now.
It's almost as though they want buyers to be disappointed.
My guess is that somebody, somewhere in their structure has some success threshold for bonuses etc. that is a variation of 'profit/earnings per SKU' or 'percentage of SKU sold' and is no gambling to optimize that measure instead of looking at fundamentals or overall health of the product range. It happens from time to time - Goodhart's Law is an easy trap to fall into, especially for middle management.
Undead_Love-Machine wrote: I don't really understand why they limit the quantities so much, they must understand the demand by now.
It's almost as though they want buyers to be disappointed.
FOMO and clearing out stock, keeps it simple. Disappointed customers are only a problem if they stop buying all together.
How do you clear out stock by casting more sprues? You do know gw casts sprues specfically for these don't you?
Yes, but every one that they don't sell takes up space. It's shortsighted, but selling 100% of available stock can be seen as a success by some people.
Undead_Love-Machine wrote: I don't really understand why they limit the quantities so much, they must understand the demand by now.
It's almost as though they want buyers to be disappointed.
FOMO and clearing out stock, keeps it simple. Disappointed customers are only a problem if they stop buying all together.
How do you clear out stock by casting more sprues? You do know gw casts sprues specfically for these don't you?
Yes, but every one that they don't sell takes up space. It's shortsighted, but selling 100% of available stock can be seen as a success by some people.
Especially when it is not meant as a permanent addition to the range, but an impulse buy.
I think it may be an enforced quiet week due to the ongoing Warehouse issues? My local Warhammer store did not get its World Eater new releases until Thursday and had none of the new releases in for this past Saturday. If it is impacting your own brick and mortar stores like that things are not right.
I've been waiting for that abaddon and cultists box so that's exciting. I really want the new modular lieut and the new dread but not enough to buy a bundle box with stuff I don't.
Wish they’d tacked the Cerberus on. I wants a Cerberus. Or two.
This is pretty hilarious to me.
2 new space marine units and a multi-option commander would have gotten the internet really riled up in the past.
Now? It feels like everyone is taking a sigh of relief. People were far more excited for arbites and seraphon during the last reveals, and are looking forward to more 30k units and AoS battletomes than they are yet more space marines.
I love this shift in attitude and I hope it continues. GW will only give other factions more attention if space marines are no longer their 'bread and butter' and other things do better in sales.
drbored wrote: Now? It feels like everyone is taking a sigh of relief. People were far more excited for arbites and seraphon during the last reveals, and are looking forward to more 30k units and AoS battletomes than they are yet more space marines.
It's only because these Space Marines look like silly gak. If they had instead thrown in a new unit that had a reasonable name and weapons that didn't look like toys, there would probably be more excitement about them.
Wish they’d tacked the Cerberus on. I wants a Cerberus. Or two.
This is pretty hilarious to me.
2 new space marine units and a multi-option commander would have gotten the internet really riled up in the past.
Now? It feels like everyone is taking a sigh of relief. People were far more excited for arbites and seraphon during the last reveals, and are looking forward to more 30k units and AoS battletomes than they are yet more space marines.
I love this shift in attitude and I hope it continues. GW will only give other factions more attention if space marines are no longer their 'bread and butter' and other things do better in sales.
No one cares about missile launcher marines when there's a primarch and a launch box worth of new marines around the corner.
I love this shift in attitude and I hope it continues. GW will only give other factions more attention if space marines are no longer their 'bread and butter' and other things do better in sales.
I'm with you, but I'm definitely not looking forward to the hyper aggressive phase if Space Marines start declining in sales. GW would try anything to salvage them before moving on to another poster boy race/faction--or god forbid, take a holistic approach to the hobby.
Although I guess if we were to get female space marines, it would happen while GW is desperately trying to claw back buying customers for the smurfs.
I have 3 marine armies, Dark Angels, Raven Guard, and Deathwatch. Normally I’d be pretty stoked over new marines, but this box just is not doing it for me. Those missile marines are so bad it just makes the box an absolute no buy.
Again that speaks to some sort of move to try and get on top of the warehouse issues. Seems to me like they could do with a week or two of zero releases.
I think the important factor about the pricing is that it's A. before the generic price increases and B. indicates that desolators are likely 5 to a box.
Dudeface wrote: I think the important factor about the pricing is that it's A. before the generic price increases and B. indicates that desolators are likely 5 to a box.
Guard Combat Patrol is at post-price increase spot. I don't think that point has any real relevance.
120GBP is a weird spot that I cannot think of having had a comparison before. There's a 125GBP spot which is $210USD product...which is shared with 130GBP as well.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: The stats look a bit….weedy? Points not withstanding, they just seem superfluous in a list already packed with Bolter level stats?
Yeah. Stats seemed very weak when first leaked. Assuming the points are as advertised (35~ a model) this unit seems dead on arrival.
Flinty wrote: Oh great... here come the Vengor Boys...
"Boom, boom, boom, boom
I want you in my room
Let's spend the night together
From now until forever
Boom, boom, boom, boom
I wanna go boom, boom
Let's spend the night together
Together in my room"
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: The stats look a bit….weedy? Points not withstanding, they just seem superfluous in a list already packed with Bolter level stats?
Yeah. Stats seemed very weak when first leaked. Assuming the points are as advertised (35~ a model) this unit seems dead on arrival.
Not evenly remotely familiar with the game, let alone Maureens, but their sole redeeming thing seems to be decent reliability.
When Blast comes into play, it’s the full 6 shots for the Super Frag, and 3 for the diddy launcher. I said diddy, not electric neck massager. The Super Krak at least gets 4-6 damage on an unsaved wound. But the diddy launcher there feels weedy.
I just get the (uninformed) impression I’d rather just take Bolters of some form.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: The stats look a bit….weedy? Points not withstanding, they just seem superfluous in a list already packed with Bolter level stats?
Yeah. Stats seemed very weak when first leaked. Assuming the points are as advertised (35~ a model) this unit seems dead on arrival.
Not evenly remotely familiar with the game, let alone Maureens, but their sole redeeming thing seems to be decent reliability.
When Blast comes into play, it’s the full 6 shots for the Super Frag, and 3 for the diddy launcher. I said diddy, not electric neck massager. The Super Krak at least gets 4-6 damage on an unsaved wound. But the diddy launcher there feels weedy.
I just get the (uninformed) impression I’d rather just take Bolters of some form.
I mean I don't think dilly launcher is inappropriate here either.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: The stats look a bit….weedy? Points not withstanding, they just seem superfluous in a list already packed with Bolter level stats?
Yeah. Stats seemed very weak when first leaked. Assuming the points are as advertised (35~ a model) this unit seems dead on arrival.
Maybe they're future-proofed stats for tenth edition, and an indication of how weapon numbers may be decreasing?
Apple fox wrote: Vengor launcher. Do you think they typed into google and went that’s a good one for the Algorithm?
It fits the unit, confusion and weird.
Why, what does it mean? They also have a vampire hybrid monster in AOS called a Vengorian lord
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: The stats look a bit….weedy? Points not withstanding, they just seem superfluous in a list already packed with Bolter level stats?
Yeah. Stats seemed very weak when first leaked. Assuming the points are as advertised (35~ a model) this unit seems dead on arrival.
Maybe they're future-proofed stats for tenth edition, and an indication of how weapon numbers may be decreasing?
Certainly an interesting thought. I guess time will tell.
AduroT wrote: Do we know the price for the Strike Force yet?
£120
US Dollars? I would just do a conversion but they get weird with their conversions.
As for unit power, can’t they shoot both their super missile of choice plus the mini rockets since they’re the same weapon type?
There isn't another thing I can find with a 120GBP pricetag to do the price banding.
Closest is Osgiliath at 125GBP, which is $210USD...which is also 130GBP price banding.
AduroT wrote: Do we know the price for the Strike Force yet?
£120
US Dollars? I would just do a conversion but they get weird with their conversions.
As for unit power, can’t they shoot both their super missile of choice plus the mini rockets since they’re the same weapon type?
There isn't another thing I can find with a 120GBP pricetag to do the price banding.
Closest is Osgiliath at 125GBP, which is $210USD...which is also 130GBP price banding.
FWIW i nicked this off B&C, pretty sure for US you can get it off the trade site.
It's 10. So, Kill Team Legionaries + Abaddon, which retail for £80, or this with an extra 20 cultists for £75. Cultists are overpriced and don't look good imo, but are free with this box. I planned on not buying it but idk, Abaddon has been on my I want it but it's too overpriced for me list for years now.
Geifer wrote: Yeah, the box cover says 31 miniatures. 20 Cultists, 10 Marines, Abaddon. No other way for it to work out. The remaining 5 Marines are just hiding.
Spoiler:
Nice to see Alpha Legion on the box cover for once….
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: The stats look a bit….weedy? Points not withstanding, they just seem superfluous in a list already packed with Bolter level stats?
Yeah. Stats seemed very weak when first leaked. Assuming the points are as advertised (35~ a model) this unit seems dead on arrival.
Yea the only other rule call-out is the signum so likely they'll hit on 2s or something, but no indication of double shoot or some other benefit to make them appealing.
Dudeface wrote: I think the important factor about the pricing is that it's A. before the generic price increases and B. indicates that desolators are likely 5 to a box.
I agree this is also likely as the studio models were painted up with two squad loadouts & two sergeants. That's a good indicator of what's going to be shown on the box for the separate kit release.
Not evenly remotely familiar with the game, let alone Maureens, but their sole redeeming thing seems to be decent reliability.
When Blast comes into play, it’s the full 6 shots for the Super Frag, and 3 for the diddy launcher. I said diddy, not electric neck massager. The Super Krak at least gets 4-6 damage on an unsaved wound. But the diddy launcher there feels weedy.
I just get the (uninformed) impression I’d rather just take Bolters of some form.
The frags won't get blast until they hit a 11+ squad, since the minimum they can roll is (1+3)
Ya know, I kinda decided I'm cool with the sarge's weapon. The asymmetrical design works for it as opposed to the weird symmetrical design for the grunts.
The more I look at the Desolation Marines, the more I like them. They remind me of the old Citadel Space Marines that Naismith designed. Large, unwieldly weapons that were explained away by suspensors and enhanced physiology.
I really liked the dreadnought from the start, so I suppose I will try to get one of these initial release box sets for my Sons of the Phoenix army.
Not evenly remotely familiar with the game, let alone Maureens, but their sole redeeming thing seems to be decent reliability.
When Blast comes into play, it’s the full 6 shots for the Super Frag, and 3 for the diddy launcher. I said diddy, not electric neck massager. The Super Krak at least gets 4-6 damage on an unsaved wound. But the diddy launcher there feels weedy.
I just get the (uninformed) impression I’d rather just take Bolters of some form.
The frags won't get blast until they hit a 11+ squad, since the minimum they can roll is (1+3)
Nope, any blast weapons are considered to roll 3 shots at units of 6+ on their variable dice part, the additional shots don't kick in. They do 6 shots at 6+ sized units as d3(auto 3) +3.
honestly, looking at those guys, it kinda seems like the NLOS shooting is the "primary" ability and the direct fire is a secondary abiliity, hence why the sergeant is armed with two NLOS weapons.
are there many targets that str4 NLOS shooting is going to be good at? i cant think of many, beyond things like chaff camping on backfield objectives. even then, my quick math put it killing something like 5-7 GEQ targets in a single round, so it would take several rounds to clear a postion.
Not evenly remotely familiar with the game, let alone Maureens, but their sole redeeming thing seems to be decent reliability.
When Blast comes into play, it’s the full 6 shots for the Super Frag, and 3 for the diddy launcher. I said diddy, not electric neck massager. The Super Krak at least gets 4-6 damage on an unsaved wound. But the diddy launcher there feels weedy.
I just get the (uninformed) impression I’d rather just take Bolters of some form.
The frags won't get blast until they hit a 11+ squad, since the minimum they can roll is (1+3)
Nope, any blast weapons are considered to roll 3 shots at units of 6+ on their variable dice part, the additional shots don't kick in. They do 6 shots at 6+ sized units as d3(auto 3) +3.
That is incorrect.
Its total shots have a floor of 3. It doesn’t do anything till 11+ models for a gun like that.
xerxeskingofking wrote: honestly, looking at those guys, it kinda seems like the NLOS shooting is the "primary" ability and the direct fire is a secondary abiliity, hence why the sergeant is armed with two NLOS weapons.
are there many targets that str4 NLOS shooting is going to be good at? i cant think of many, beyond things like chaff camping on backfield objectives. even then, my quick math put it killing something like 5-7 GEQ targets in a single round, so it would take several rounds to clear a postion.
That’s not nothing?
I get that bolter equivalent fire is something I don’t lack in my lists. This is just more of it. But the ignore LOS is a nice perk. Even if it takes 2 turns to clear an objective, that’s the rest of the game it’s not being scored. Or another, non-chaff unit tied down to it. There is value there.
Although with sticky objectives, how much camping is going on? Marines are probably no going to bother. It will be interesting to see how things shift in 10th.
Not evenly remotely familiar with the game, let alone Maureens, but their sole redeeming thing seems to be decent reliability.
When Blast comes into play, it’s the full 6 shots for the Super Frag, and 3 for the diddy launcher. I said diddy, not electric neck massager. The Super Krak at least gets 4-6 damage on an unsaved wound. But the diddy launcher there feels weedy.
I just get the (uninformed) impression I’d rather just take Bolters of some form.
The frags won't get blast until they hit a 11+ squad, since the minimum they can roll is (1+3)
Nope, any blast weapons are considered to roll 3 shots at units of 6+ on their variable dice part, the additional shots don't kick in. They do 6 shots at 6+ sized units as d3(auto 3) +3.
That is incorrect.
Its total shots have a floor of 3. It doesn’t do anything till 11+ models for a gun like that.
Right you are after going back and rereading it! My apologies, it just reiterates for me how clunky blast is as a rule.
Not evenly remotely familiar with the game, let alone Maureens, but their sole redeeming thing seems to be decent reliability.
When Blast comes into play, it’s the full 6 shots for the Super Frag, and 3 for the diddy launcher. I said diddy, not electric neck massager. The Super Krak at least gets 4-6 damage on an unsaved wound. But the diddy launcher there feels weedy.
I just get the (uninformed) impression I’d rather just take Bolters of some form.
The frags won't get blast until they hit a 11+ squad, since the minimum they can roll is (1+3)
Nope, any blast weapons are considered to roll 3 shots at units of 6+ on their variable dice part, the additional shots don't kick in. They do 6 shots at 6+ sized units as d3(auto 3) +3.
That is incorrect.
Its total shots have a floor of 3. It doesn’t do anything till 11+ models for a gun like that.
Right you are after going back and rereading it! My apologies, it just reiterates for me how clunky blast is as a rule.
No worries. I've suggested changes to Blast, making it scale slower but apply to each die rolled.
Because right now... It's dumb that a 4d6 Wyvern Mortar has no change in squads of 1-10, but as soon as you hit 11, it jumps to flat 24 shots.
I get that bolter equivalent fire is something I don’t lack in my lists. This is just more of it. But the ignore LOS is a nice perk. Even if it takes 2 turns to clear an objective, that’s the rest of the game it’s not being scored. Or another, non-chaff unit tied down to it. There is value there.
Although with sticky objectives, how much camping is going on? Marines are probably no going to bother. It will be interesting to see how things shift in 10th.
ok, fair enough, i agree its not "nothing", just whether its enough be the core purpose of a unit that can justify its place in a list.
Also, i forgot the NLOS to hit modifer, so that quikmaff was based on 3s to hit. at 4s to hit its closer to 5 GEQ assuming max shots (ie 15 of the castellans and 6 from the vengor). i didnt factor any buffs into that, so it might be slightly better than that, but not massively.
I suppose the question should be better phrased as "is that damage with NLOS worth the opportunity cost of (for example) not taking a unit of Eradicators or Eliminators?", given that it (presumably) sits in heavy support and would be competing with those for list space.
I get that bolter equivalent fire is something I don’t lack in my lists. This is just more of it. But the ignore LOS is a nice perk. Even if it takes 2 turns to clear an objective, that’s the rest of the game it’s not being scored. Or another, non-chaff unit tied down to it. There is value there.
Although with sticky objectives, how much camping is going on? Marines are probably no going to bother. It will be interesting to see how things shift in 10th.
ok, fair enough, i agree its not "nothing", just whether its enough be the core purpose of a unit that can justify its place in a list.
Also, i forgot the NLOS to hit modifer, so that quikmaff was based on 3s to hit. at 4s to hit its closer to 5 GEQ assuming max shots (ie 15 of the castellans and 6 from the vengor). i didnt factor any buffs into that, so it might be slightly better than that, but not massively.
I suppose the question should be better phrased as "is that damage with NLOS worth the opportunity cost of (for example) not taking a unit of Eradicators or Eliminators?", given that it (presumably) sits in heavy support and would be competing with those for list space.
Assuming a squad size of 6-10 (so max shots Castellan, 4 average on Vengor) the Vengor kills just over one GEQ and each Castellan kills 2/3rds of one.
I get that bolter equivalent fire is something I don’t lack in my lists. This is just more of it. But the ignore LOS is a nice perk. Even if it takes 2 turns to clear an objective, that’s the rest of the game it’s not being scored. Or another, non-chaff unit tied down to it. There is value there.
Although with sticky objectives, how much camping is going on? Marines are probably no going to bother. It will be interesting to see how things shift in 10th.
ok, fair enough, i agree its not "nothing", just whether its enough be the core purpose of a unit that can justify its place in a list.
Also, i forgot the NLOS to hit modifer, so that quikmaff was based on 3s to hit. at 4s to hit its closer to 5 GEQ assuming max shots (ie 15 of the castellans and 6 from the vengor). i didnt factor any buffs into that, so it might be slightly better than that, but not massively.
I suppose the question should be better phrased as "is that damage with NLOS worth the opportunity cost of (for example) not taking a unit of Eradicators or Eliminators?", given that it (presumably) sits in heavy support and would be competing with those for list space.
I don't tnkh you can call single weapon on sergeant as core purpose...pretty sure the main gun carried by all is.
Edit oh each guy does have secondary nlos gun. Still wouldn't call it as core purpose
Not evenly remotely familiar with the game, let alone Maureens, but their sole redeeming thing seems to be decent reliability.
When Blast comes into play, it’s the full 6 shots for the Super Frag, and 3 for the diddy launcher. I said diddy, not electric neck massager. The Super Krak at least gets 4-6 damage on an unsaved wound. But the diddy launcher there feels weedy.
I just get the (uninformed) impression I’d rather just take Bolters of some form.
The frags won't get blast until they hit a 11+ squad, since the minimum they can roll is (1+3)
Nope, any blast weapons are considered to roll 3 shots at units of 6+ on their variable dice part, the additional shots don't kick in. They do 6 shots at 6+ sized units as d3(auto 3) +3.
That is incorrect.
Its total shots have a floor of 3. It doesn’t do anything till 11+ models for a gun like that.
Right you are after going back and rereading it! My apologies, it just reiterates for me how clunky blast is as a rule.
No worries. I've suggested changes to Blast, making it scale slower but apply to each die rolled.
Because right now... It's dumb that a 4d6 Wyvern Mortar has no change in squads of 1-10, but as soon as you hit 11, it jumps to flat 24 shots.
But you still get to roll the d3 right? So you can get 6 shots
I get that bolter equivalent fire is something I don’t lack in my lists. This is just more of it. But the ignore LOS is a nice perk. Even if it takes 2 turns to clear an objective, that’s the rest of the game it’s not being scored. Or another, non-chaff unit tied down to it. There is value there.
Although with sticky objectives, how much camping is going on? Marines are probably no going to bother. It will be interesting to see how things shift in 10th.
ok, fair enough, i agree its not "nothing", just whether its enough be the core purpose of a unit that can justify its place in a list.
Also, i forgot the NLOS to hit modifer, so that quikmaff was based on 3s to hit. at 4s to hit its closer to 5 GEQ assuming max shots (ie 15 of the castellans and 6 from the vengor). i didnt factor any buffs into that, so it might be slightly better than that, but not massively.
I suppose the question should be better phrased as "is that damage with NLOS worth the opportunity cost of (for example) not taking a unit of Eradicators or Eliminators?", given that it (presumably) sits in heavy support and would be competing with those for list space.
Good question. And I don’t think we’ll have an answer until we see the final full points/datasheet.
They are going to be pricy. And you can’t hide them completely out of LoS, as presumably you’re going to want to be shooting superkracks into things. And being a high offense unit on a basic MEQ body, they are not going to be that hard to delete.
In the right list with good screening, I think they might work. But honestly I don’t see them making too much of a splash as things stand now.
I don't think you can call single weapon on sergeant as core purpose...pretty sure the main gun carried by all is.
Edit oh each guy does have secondary nlos gun. Still wouldn't call it as core purpose
what i meant was, that NLOS shooting is pretty much the key, "unique" thing these guys can do. Superfrag is just more bolter equivlent fire that most marines have plenty of, the superkrak is arguably subpar in antitank effect compared to eradicators (and not enough to justify these over eradicators), but theirs very little that can do NLOS shooting, so the big reason you'd want to add them to the list, in my opinion, would be because you want that NLOS capability. So, thats why i called it the "core" ability.
xerxeskingofking wrote: what i meant was, that NLOS shooting is pretty much the key, "unique" thing these guys can do. Superfrag is just more bolter equivlent fire that most marines have plenty of, the superkrak is arguably subpar in antitank effect compared to eradicators (and not enough to justify these over eradicators), but theirs very little that can do NLOS shooting, so the big reason you'd want to add them to the list, in my opinion, would be because you want that NLOS capability. So, thats why i called it the "core" ability.
The main benefits these have over eradicators is, 1) better effective range, and 2) they can go in impulsors, then disembark and shoot after moving. I don't know if that'll be enough to make them worthwhile.
xerxeskingofking wrote: what i meant was, that NLOS shooting is pretty much the key, "unique" thing these guys can do. Superfrag is just more bolter equivlent fire that most marines have plenty of, the superkrak is arguably subpar in antitank effect compared to eradicators (and not enough to justify these over eradicators), but theirs very little that can do NLOS shooting, so the big reason you'd want to add them to the list, in my opinion, would be because you want that NLOS capability. So, thats why i called it the "core" ability.
The main benefits these have over eradicators is, 1) better effective range, and 2) they can go in impulsors, then disembark and shoot after moving. I don't know if that'll be enough to make them worthwhile.
There's certainly something to be said for being able to hide in cover on the other side of the table, which Eradicators aren't likely to be doing.
At first glance, I'd say pass on the sarge's unique weapon and kit them out with Superkraks. Thanks to those Castellan launchers, they can work against both soft and heavy targets.
Primaris are a mess of aesthetics, on one hand you get some nice looking models with better proportions than the old chibi marines, and on other you have these goofy things that look like an Ork unit. All the Vehicles are really bad too besides the bikes.
Can we get a redo on some of this stuff please? Maybe hire at least one person with some historical/military/weapon/tank design background to act as an editor for these "artists"
xerxeskingofking wrote: what i meant was, that NLOS shooting is pretty much the key, "unique" thing these guys can do. Superfrag is just more bolter equivlent fire that most marines have plenty of, the superkrak is arguably subpar in antitank effect compared to eradicators (and not enough to justify these over eradicators), but theirs very little that can do NLOS shooting, so the big reason you'd want to add them to the list, in my opinion, would be because you want that NLOS capability. So, thats why i called it the "core" ability.
The main benefits these have over eradicators is, 1) better effective range, and 2) they can go in impulsors, then disembark and shoot after moving. I don't know if that'll be enough to make them worthwhile.
There's certainly something to be said for being able to hide in cover on the other side of the table, which Eradicators aren't likely to be doing.
At first glance, I'd say pass on the sarge's unique weapon and kit them out with Superkraks. Thanks to those Castellan launchers, they can work against both soft and heavy targets.
Seems it’s just the diddy launcher which can blind fire though. Frag and Krak profiles don’t mention it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As for the aesthetic, it is growing on me.
Marines carrying improbable weapons, made wieldy by their physiology and power armour working in concert works. The fact the weapons are more potent than most of comparable size is very 40K Astartes.
That’s not to say some of the mock-ups others have done, such as mounting the diddy launcher on the backpack don’t look better. Just that I’m slowly gaining an appreciation for them as they are.
Controversially? I prefer them to the shoulder mounted Missile Launcher from 3rd Ed. Too short, too small for me.
That’s where I’ve been at too. It looks unwieldy To You because you don’t have super human strength further enhanced by a suit of power armor. They ain’t nothing for these chaps.
After thinking on it a bit, I think my main issue with the Desolators is the Sergeant's silly gun. If the Venga boys mega blaster is optional and he can be built with one of the regular weapons (in a regular pose too), they are easier on the eye than a lot of the other goofy modern-ish marine units (Centurions, Flyers, Suppressors, Hover tanks). However, even if most people's reactions to the new guys is hyperbolic - it is telling of the quality control at GW that these guys sailed through without question when there are so many low hanging fruit options.
Insularum wrote: After thinking on it a bit, I think my main issue with the Desolators is the Sergeant's silly gun. If the Venga boys mega blaster is optional and he can be built with one of the regular weapons (in a regular pose too), they are easier on the eye than a lot of the other goofy modern-ish marine units (Centurions, Flyers, Suppressors, Hover tanks). However, even if most people's reactions to the new guys is hyperbolic - it is telling of the quality control at GW that these guys sailed through without question when there are so many low hanging fruit options.
For me it's the silly little hatches. Take those things off or keep them closed.
Goose LeChance wrote: Can we get a redo on some of this stuff please? Maybe hire at least one person with some historical/military/weapon/tank design background to act as an editor for these "artists"
How about you start with yourself, seeing Primaris tanks are nearly direct copy of Merkava tanks (same as Rhino was of M113 and Predator of Bradley IFV), down to octagonal turret with multiple launchers/boxes around, hull profile and heavy stubber pintle mount?
Spoiler:
Unless your argument is that actually produced, used in multiple wars tank is not realistic enough, in which case well
Marines carrying improbable weapons, made wieldy by their physiology and power armour working in concert works. The fact the weapons are more potent than most of comparable size is very 40K Astartes.
That’s not to say some of the mock-ups others have done, such as mounting the diddy launcher on the backpack don’t look better. Just that I’m slowly gaining an appreciation for them as they are.
Controversially? I prefer them to the shoulder mounted Missile Launcher from 3rd Ed. Too short, too small for me.
Yeah, this is the first SM launcher that actually sells the idea that it fires multiple types of missiles on demand, not, like tube one, magically produces whatever missile is needed out of thin air. HH one is even worse, solid magazine with a single type of missile inside, yet somehow even more magically they turn from anti-tank ones to anti-air and vice versa. Yes, there are some types of universal missiles but SM very specifically use specialized missiles so it can't be that. Really, my only complaint is that Sarge special missile should be on backpack (vertically, though) and these would be mostly fine.
Really, reading through complains on Primaris, 95% of these tend to come from people who have no idea virtually every single gun/missile/tank they use has some RL equivalent, people who can name maybe 2-3 guns and tanks, and since these don't look like Primaris gear, therefore are bad/ugly/unrealistic, never mind the fact they not only existed, but were also successfully used in a war. Go figure
I like Primaris not only because they look million times better than squats with broken pelvis missing half of their spine, but also because their armor and gear looks way more functional than old stuff - because it's actually based on things people did use, not something that has literally no way of moving (looking at you, old dread legs/legs and belly of old armor marks/bullets in old guns magically teleporting around/[insert 200 more examples]).
Daedalus81 wrote: For me it's the silly little hatches. Take those things off or keep them closed.
Well, you can always clip them off if you don't like them, no?
And actually, they are based on another RL weapon, US M202 missile system, multiple tubes, hatches and all:
But if they go down they interfere with the weird rotary belt fed thingy.
For me, the concept of the box launcher is fine, but balancing it weirdly on the end of a long thing seems to be a much worse idea compared to a shoulder mount of some kind. Weight distribution, back blast. Overall length just works against it, amd that’s before the weird rotary thing comes in.
Maybe it’s the higgledy littlest nature. Each individual component is fine, but I don’t like the way they have been smooshed together.
And actually, they are based on another RL weapon, US M202 missile system, multiple tubes, hatches and all:
Such unrealistic, much wow.
now just make the gun the same size as the guy carrying it, glue another gun on top, then add a belt feed and hold it like an AR lobbing grenades.
Boom. He's a Primaris Devastationeero. This is what happens when the designers start taking memes seriously. More guns, bigger, dumber! haha lets make a joke of everything. They charge how much for these kids toys again?
It followed the established design language both for devastators at the time as they transitioned from shoulder mounted to hip fired heavy weapons, and for plasma weapons.
So for the new primaris thingies, while the weapon position matches the devastator aesthetic, it’s the weird mismatch of new weapon components that grates a bit.
A couple of bits from the WH+ report:
-Agastus isn't the Lieutenant, but rather the Dreadnought.
-Desolation Squad Sergeant has a Targeter, giving +1 to his Hit rolls with a heavy weapon.
Dysartes wrote: ...how is a Targeter meant to improve your accuracy with NLOS weapons?
Because the targeter knows where the target is, even without direct LOS?
++Position weapon at [this angle] to hit ground target at coordinates [xyz]++
Targeter gives position assist to power armour to hold weapon in right position, like a high tech version of what my car does with steering assist vs road markings?
Dysartes wrote: ...how is a Targeter meant to improve your accuracy with NLOS weapons?
Because the targeter knows where the target is, even without direct LOS?
++Position weapon at [this angle] to hit ground target at coordinates [xyz]++
Targeter gives position assist to power armour to hold weapon in right position, like a high tech version of what my car does with steering assist vs road markings?
The targeter may as well be some sort of battle computer that calculates the optimal firing solution and takes stuff like gravity, atmospheric density and so on into account. Basically like modern artillery does, but in spaaace.
Kanluwen wrote: A couple of bits from the WH+ report:
-Agastus isn't the Lieutenant, but rather the Dreadnought.
-Desolation Squad Sergeant has a Targeter, giving +1 to his Hit rolls with a heavy weapon.
Don't forget being able to do 26 wounds in one round. That Deff Dread got rekt.
Kanluwen wrote: A couple of bits from the WH+ report: -Agastus isn't the Lieutenant, but rather the Dreadnought. -Desolation Squad Sergeant has a Targeter, giving +1 to his Hit rolls with a heavy weapon.
Don't forget being able to do 26 wounds in one round. That Deff Dread got rekt.
So we're clear for anyone who isn't specifically sure about this situation? This was the Dreadnought doing it. to the Deff Dread, which charged it.
Agastus the Dreadnought used the "Strike" profile(billed in today's article as the "anti-vehicle" attack), meaning it was D3+3 damage at 5 attacks throwing at S14(S7 x2 from the Talons in Strike profile, allowing for rerolling Wound rolls in Strike) and it got an additional attack(bumping it to 6 rather than the usual 5) via Shock Assault and having been charged. The AP-4 of the Brutalis Talons made it so that the Deff Dread couldn't save against the attacks.
You can say what you look about the aesthetic appeal, but at least they fight like a Dread should!
Aesthetic wise, the Primaris dread is millions of times better than the old box Dread that doesn't even look like it can walk. Only thing really missing is some more gun options for a standard loadout but that's not a big deal for now.
Kanluwen wrote: A couple of bits from the WH+ report:
-Agastus isn't the Lieutenant, but rather the Dreadnought.
-Desolation Squad Sergeant has a Targeter, giving +1 to his Hit rolls with a heavy weapon.
Another fun bit: The LT in the Battle Report is Titus.
alextroy wrote: The real problem with Desolator marines is missile launcher rifles. Where is the missile exhaust going?
For me that’s the easiest thing to deal with. They are wearing power armour. A bit of rocket back blast is probably not going to worry them that much, although I can see their armour cleaning duders getting really narky about it
Codex Astsrtes gets an update to permit all destructinators to recolour their armour murky grey, regardless of their chapter, just to save on repainting costs
alextroy wrote: The real problem with Desolator marines is missile launcher rifles. Where is the missile exhaust going?
For me that’s the easiest thing to deal with. They are wearing power armour. A bit of rocket back blast is probably not going to worry them that much, although I can see their armour cleaning duders getting really narky about it
Codex Astsrtes gets an update to permit all destructinators to recolour their armour murky grey, regardless of their chapter, just to save on repainting costs
I dunno every time they fire their weapons they take a blast to the face, seems pretty comical but I guess that's where we're at. The only question is if it's intentionally bad or they don't know anything.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Is it just me, or do the Missile Launchers just look better from this angle?
Sorry, Doc, I think it may be you.
Same.
They remind me of nothing so much as teenage me's attempts to build kustom weapon jobs, but for some reason for space marines rather than orks.
Just glue barrels onto barrels and pretend it looks fine.
alextroy wrote: The real problem with Desolator marines is missile launcher rifles. Where is the missile exhaust going?
For me that’s the easiest thing to deal with. They are wearing power armour. A bit of rocket back blast is probably not going to worry them that much, although I can see their armour cleaning duders getting really narky about it
Codex Astsrtes gets an update to permit all destructinators to recolour their armour murky grey, regardless of their chapter, just to save on repainting costs
Out of what exhaust port? There doesn’t seem to be one on the Castellan Launcher. These designs are too toylike.
The belt-fed castellan launcher saturates the sky with guided bomblets that rain down on the enemy wherever they hide.
The Castellan Launcher isn't firing rockets/missiles. They're effectively firing airburst rounds. That's why there is an ejection port on the side of it.
With regards to exhaust...it's something that always seems to be forgotten, but the lore has suggested that Astartes have a 'heads-up' linkage to their boltguns. They don't always have to be firing from the shoulder to be firing accurately.
Here is my unboxing of Strike Force Agastus, with high-res sprue pics for all the new kits, plus a look at all of the assembly options & alternate builds:
Chaos boarding patrol sold out exceedingly fast. Wayland reduced their discount on it to 15% too, somewhat ominous (for me at least). Others had their usual 20% discount.
stahly wrote: Here is my unboxing of Strike Force Agastus, with high-res sprue pics for all the new kits, plus a look at all of the assembly options & alternate builds:
stahly wrote: Here is my unboxing of Strike Force Agastus, with high-res sprue pics for all the new kits, plus a look at all of the assembly options & alternate builds:
Great review! Makes me happy I grabbed a box from Warpfire. Frankly, the Primaris Lt is one of the figures I am most interested in, as his pose is very remniscent of the old 40KHC. I may have to paint him up as a Crimson Fist.
bullyboy wrote: I have 3 marine armies, Dark Angels, Raven Guard, and Deathwatch. Normally I’d be pretty stoked over new marines, but this box just is not doing it for me. Those missile marines are so bad it just makes the box an absolute no buy.
I want. A brutalis and would normally buy the box and flip the other bits a don’t want, normally make back most the cost of the box doing that, but with this I held off and I’m glad I did. There doesn’t seem to be a secondary market for these god ugly missile marines at all. Only seen two sets sell on eBay so far. I would have been left with them or shifted them for a few quid and ended up paying through the nose for the dread.
I really like all the primaris stuff to date but not those guys.
I'm still confused about the whole chain fed gun thing. Do they have a bolter in addition to the little rocket pod thing? Ick, how'd they mess them up THAT bad I'll never know.
It would make more sense if the barrage bomblet launcher was the weapon mounted on their back, since presumably it doesn't require the same degree of aiming as the main rocket launcher.
I would try out snipping off the backpack vents and mounting the big missiles to fire vertically. Keep the optics on the rifle part, and the. It a bit like the cyclone launcher with a separate targeting array.
H.B.M.C. wrote: As a friend of mine put it: That's a very polished turd, but a turd nontheless.
Exactly.
They must be considered really bad. I've not even seen the usual dakka dislike post of "I don't like them, so I'll only buy 1 box instead of 3".
On another more negative note. GW will have made loads of them as they're SMs. They won't sell many, so expect these turds to be in every SM box set from now on to reduce the stock. :-(
H.B.M.C. wrote: As a friend of mine put it: That's a very polished turd, but a turd nontheless.
Exactly.
They must be considered really bad. I've not even seen the usual dakka dislike post of "I don't like them, so I'll only buy 1 box instead of 3".
On another more negative note. GW will have made loads of them as they're SMs. They won't sell many, so expect these turds to be in every SM box set from now on to reduce the stock. :-(
Good maybe poor sales will encourage GW to take some of their Primaris designs a little more seriously
H.B.M.C. wrote: As a friend of mine put it: That's a very polished turd, but a turd nontheless.
Exactly.
They must be considered really bad. I've not even seen the usual dakka dislike post of "I don't like them, so I'll only buy 1 box instead of 3".
On another more negative note. GW will have made loads of them as they're SMs. They won't sell many, so expect these turds to be in every SM box set from now on to reduce the stock. :-(
"They won't sell many" You can't seriously believe that.
I wish GW would just release a tactical primaris squad with the versatility and options of the old tac squads.
These very specialist squads are just there to push models with good rules before the nerf and then you never see them again.I am a big fan of primaris but the direction they keep going in is not one that I like. Design wise and rules wise ...
I hope they change their stance and quit making anything primaris orks but less rusty, I mean every model now has 20 guns tacked on... they don't look cool to me and they just look silly even from the perspective of "it's warhammer".
Yes it's painfully obvious at this point that they moved away from tac squads so they could keep selling new units with slightly different weapons forever
On another more negative note. GW will have made loads of them as they're SMs. They won't sell many, so expect these turds to be in every SM box set from now on to reduce the stock. :-(
That's not how it works. The stock for army sets, battleforces and the like is made specially for those boxes. Boxes aren't broken down and repacked into other products.
On another more negative note. GW will have made loads of them as they're SMs. They won't sell many, so expect these turds to be in every SM box set from now on to reduce the stock. :-(
That's not how it works. The stock for army sets, battleforces and the like is made specially for those boxes. Boxes aren't broken down and repacked into other products.
Another possible metric they may use is if they are not selling as well, they put into boxes as a stuffer unit. To make a box look better with 5 extra marines and making it look much better price. Even if it isn’t really wanted or popular, it can still make a box seem sweeter.
Like how characters can make a good box seem worse if the only use it has is sitting gathering dust, but cannot deny its value adding the box together ether.
On another more negative note. GW will have made loads of them as they're SMs. They won't sell many, so expect these turds to be in every SM box set from now on to reduce the stock. :-(
That's not how it works. The stock for army sets, battleforces and the like is made specially for those boxes. Boxes aren't broken down and repacked into other products.
Another possible metric they may use is if they are not selling as well, they put into boxes as a stuffer unit. To make a box look better with 5 extra marines and making it look much better price. Even if it isn’t really wanted or popular, it can still make a box seem sweeter.
Like how characters can make a good box seem worse if the only use it has is sitting gathering dust, but cannot deny its value adding the box together ether.
Yes, I'm sure sales could influence decisions about which units to include in future value-added boxes. It's the "GW will have made loads of them" that isn't relevant.
I'll probably not buy them because I don't play Marines - but I continue to be in the tiny minority that thinks they look fine. Almost tempted to buy some out of spite.
Tyel wrote: I'll probably not buy them because I don't play Marines - but I continue to be in the tiny minority that thinks they look fine. Almost tempted to buy some out of spite.
But as far as I can see the rules suck.
I don't think the rules suck, I just don't think they're worth buying 10 of them.
Tyel wrote: I'll probably not buy them because I don't play Marines - but I continue to be in the tiny minority that thinks they look fine. Almost tempted to buy some out of spite.
But as far as I can see the rules suck.
I don't think the rules suck, I just don't think they're worth buying 10 of them.
The rules don't seem very good. They're basically Hellblasters where maybe certain Chapters might get some mileage but you're better off with regular Devastators.
H.B.M.C. wrote: As a friend of mine put it: That's a very polished turd, but a turd nontheless.
Exactly.
They must be considered really bad. I've not even seen the usual dakka dislike post of "I don't like them, so I'll only buy 1 box instead of 3".
On another more negative note. GW will have made loads of them as they're SMs. They won't sell many, so expect these turds to be in every SM box set from now on to reduce the stock. :-(
The Frag version looks pretty bad, but the Krak isn't terrible. I'm also a fan of the Sargeant weapon but I've seen I'm in the minority there.
The rules don't seem very good. They're basically Hellblasters where maybe certain Chapters might get some mileage but you're better off with regular Devastators.
Don't worry, GW will be along sooner, rather than later, to fix that problem also.
The rules don't seem very good. They're basically Hellblasters where maybe certain Chapters might get some mileage but you're better off with regular Devastators.
Don't worry, GW will be along sooner, rather than later, to fix that problem also.
Just like they fixed say, Reivers or melee list access, things that sucked for the entire duration of primaris rules?
Unless you meant nerfing into the ground, like the inept clown SM rules writer does every single time primaris get something good by accident, then sorry, my bad...
Beast_of_Guanyin wrote: I'm still confused about the whole chain fed gun thing. Do they have a bolter in addition to the little rocket pod thing?
No, it's supposed to be multiple missile pod adding saturation attacks to bigger rockets on top (belt fed because reloading it in any other way would be really impractical):
Funny how using the exact same setup as RL missile loadouts is somehow 'unrealistic' according to expierds here
Goose LeChance wrote: I dunno every time they fire their weapons they take a blast to the face, seems pretty comical but I guess that's where we're at. The only question is if it's intentionally bad or they don't know anything.
I have no idea how people repeatedly make this particular complaint about new missile launchers with straight face. When you hold the gun at chest level, vast majority of the blast goes straight into the shoulder pad, thickest, most resilient part of the armour. Some goes into chest, also the best protected part of the body. With old tube/HH launchers, though? 95% goes straight into your eye lenses and exposed breathing grill, making the above complain really dumb and ridiculous (and no, the superficial blast shield wouldn't stop it, because it would only block the first 0.1 seconds worth of backblast plus with being so asymmetrical, it would send the missile spinning harmlessly into the ground with its own deflected exhaust - there is a reason why no modern RL has these...)
tneva82 wrote: For me it's the guns top of guns. Too many guns. Give them 1 gun and profile to make worth of it.
Common witk primaris stuff. That melee dreadnought outshoots shooty dreads...
Yup, dual guns are dumb. We should delete combi weapons then (funny how no one whines about these even though modern, realistically sized combi-guns from recent termie kits are just as big proportionally on squatmarines as these launchers on primaris). And the melee Redemptor having the exact same amount of weapons as melee Leviathan, it's closest equivalent, is tOo MaNy GuNz. Oh wait...
If anything, problem with Redemptor is that it does not have enough, and it should have dual gun variant (again, like Leviathan).
On another more negative note. GW will have made loads of them as they're SMs. They won't sell many, so expect these turds to be in every SM box set from now on to reduce the stock. :-(
That's not how it works. The stock for army sets, battleforces and the like is made specially for those boxes. Boxes aren't broken down and repacked into other products.
While that is true, it's also not the whole truth. They're not literally breaking down and repacking boxes, but the main cost of any mini is producing the mould, and each one will allow them to cast a certain number of sprues. If you want to optimise things, you want to run each mould to the end of its life.
So while they might be making new Heavy Intercessors for this box, the cost of making them is relatively low if they've got plenty of life left in the existing moulds. And if something isn't selling well, they are certainly incentivised to bundle it.
Irbis wrote: [snpp]
No, it's supposed to be multiple missile pod adding saturation attacks to bigger rockets on top (belt fed because reloading it in any other way would be really impractical):
Funny how using the exact same setup as RL missile loadouts is somehow 'unrealistic' according to expierds here
I don't think its the loadout combination as such, just the weird way they have been smooshed together.
Goose LeChance wrote: I dunno every time they fire their weapons they take a blast to the face, seems pretty comical but I guess that's where we're at. The only question is if it's intentionally bad or they don't know anything.
I have no idea how people repeatedly make this particular complaint about new missile launchers with straight face. When you hold the gun at chest level, vast majority of the blast goes straight into the shoulder pad, thickest, most resilient part of the armour. Some goes into chest, also the best protected part of the body. With old tube/HH launchers, though? 95% goes straight into your eye lenses and exposed breathing grill, making the above complain really dumb and ridiculous (and no, the superficial blast shield wouldn't stop it, because it would only block the first 0.1 seconds worth of backblast plus with being so asymmetrical, it would send the missile spinning harmlessly into the ground with its own deflected exhaust - there is a reason why no modern RL has these...)
Conventional modern missile launchers have an initial charge to launch out of the tube, and the rocket ignites at a safe distance, or the tube is long enough to protect the user. The old style marine launchers all conform to this configuration, the implication being that they work in the same way, so the user should never see any particular back-blast.
The Primaris ones are set right in front of the user, so any back-blast vent for launch purposes would have to be offset somewhere (leading to a weird recoil torque, but they are in power armour so that probably doesn't matter), or the launch exhaust just gets dumped into the user. That doesn't seem like a good design choice either way.
Or they have gone the way of the true military awesomeness and have recreated the PIAT and its spring loaded majesty!
tneva82 wrote: For me it's the guns top of guns. Too many guns. Give them 1 gun and profile to make worth of it.
Common witk primaris stuff. That melee dreadnought outshoots shooty dreads...
Yup, dual guns are dumb. We should delete combi weapons then (funny how no one whines about these even though modern, realistically sized combi-guns from recent termie kits are just as big proportionally on squatmarines as these launchers on primaris). And the melee Redemptor having the exact same amount of weapons as melee Leviathan, it's closest equivalent, is tOo MaNy GuNz. Oh wait...
If anything, problem with Redemptor is that it does not have enough, and it should have dual gun variant (again, like Leviathan).
When stormbolters came out they were very clearly designed as a conventional pair of weapons linked together in a relatively svelte package. They used to be tiny, and have gradually grow in size over the years. When the chaos stuff came out they made a (in my view) nifty thing of the chaos dudes using the previous even clunkier version of combi weapons where it was just 2 bolters strapped together. It was deliberately clunky, and it fitted the bill.
These missile rifle thingies take that to the extreme in terms of massive boxes bolted haphazardly to each other and to me it doesn't make sense to do that. GW have had quite a consistent design language with their marine weapons over the years, and these things move away from it uite drawstically.
Funny how using the exact same setup as RL missile loadouts is somehow 'unrealistic' according to expierds here
It's attached to a fething helicopter not a person
Also, not belt-fed. Which to my knowledge there is no such thing as a belt-fed rocket launcher.
This isn't the first belt-fed rocket launcher in the setting, either.
Land Speeder Typhoon launchers had a belt-looking feed, and then there is the glorious Necromunda monstrosity of the buggy with the belt fed missile launcher.
H.B.M.C. wrote: As a friend of mine put it: That's a very polished turd, but a turd nontheless.
Exactly.
They must be considered really bad. I've not even seen the usual dakka dislike post of "I don't like them, so I'll only buy 1 box instead of 3".
On another more negative note. GW will have made loads of them as they're SMs. They won't sell many, so expect these turds to be in every SM box set from now on to reduce the stock. :-(
Of course future boxes won't take from existing sprues so not going to reduce stock. Producing more sprues for new box set has zero effect on stock.
Maybe in another 38,000 years the've figured out how to belt-feed a portable 60mm rocket launcher (because that doesn't look big enough to be the same size as an AT-4 rocket).
Maybe in another 38,000 years the've figured out how to belt-feed a portable 60mm rocket launcher (because that doesn't look big enough to be the same size as an AT-4 rocket).
I was pretty sure 40K already had that and it was called the heavy bolter. But whatever.
Does it have six barrels where individual grenades protrude from each of those barrels like it was some sort of cylinder in a revolver despite also having a belt?
I mean, we're talking about the same company who made the pump-action cylinder-fed bolt "shotguns". They know nothing of how weapons function, and the Primaris Compensators and their Goofy Guns are the latest example, and a particularly egregious one.