So it’ll be at least a week before us Dakkanauts get our mitts on the first book, and even longerer until we’ve seen the full picture. But out there in youtube land, some have been hands on and offered potted versions of the you folding plot.
The one I watched was by Arbitrator Ian, and it’s a pretty decent vid. And here it is.
In short. It’s Quest for the McGuffin as I think most expected. Me, I’m intrigued. But also half expecting the opening up thing to be The Lion’s bedroom. Just because a Daemon wants something and is playing nice, doesn’t mean you’re gonna like That Thing.
Given what we know of Vashtorr and it’s ongoing ascendancy, that does make sense. We’re told it’s empowered by innovation and creativity. If Chaos took over, a chunk of that goes away in favour of ritual and rote. But, give The Imperium Nihilus more of a fighting chance? You rebalance the ledger somewhat, force all sides to adapt and yes, innovate, however slow and comparatively stagnant Imperial Tech is, it does still innovate, sometimes on a massive scale (such as the Primaris project).
That stuff about the prophecy could very well fit the rumoured return of the Lion, the symbolism is pretty on the nose about it. Circles within circles, ancient knight crying in the ashes of his victory...
so, lorewise, this would be the first time in recent 40K lore that they have featured a Non-Great Four aligned demonic entity, at least to my knowledge. Vashtorr is not a deamon prince, but a effectively a Lesser Chaos God. thats rather intresting.
Flinty wrote: The pedant in me wonders what the difference is
between vashtorr and the other deamons? at once, very little and quite a bit.
very little, in that his interactions with realspace are basically though the same sets of limits as the godly deamons, needing summons and other tricks to be in it.
but quite a bit, as godly deamons are, to a large extent, reflections of their God, all extremely alike in mindset and continence, whereas Vashtorr is independant, aligned to his own goals, and not a reflection of one of the Gods.
apprantly, hes the guy who runs the newly discribed Soul Forges of the warp, the ones that make Demon Engines like Skull Cannons, Soul Grinders and suchlike. Hes a arms dealer to the Great Four, trying to leverage his position into turning the Four into Five. I don't think he'll succeed, but thats his plan.
Being master of the Soul Forge is an interesting thing because none of the Four are allowed to have any stake in running it. A Warpsmith tried to take it over once and its one of the few instances of the Pantheon working together to take it back and ensure its neutrality in the Great Game.
If it suddenly becomes the home turf of another big player in the Game, that would be a significant shakeup for the Dark Gods.
Seems Fulgrim is confirmed to be knocking around the Imperium Nihilus, much to Abaddon’s chagrin. Probably because he seems to be doing whatever he wants.
From what Ive seen they are moving the setting a position where Abbadon is the defacto ruler of the dark imperium and that will be the setting for quite a long time. Although portages as a baddy the irony will be that both halves of the imperium as the same, he’ll for those that don’t comply, everyone else gets left alone as long as they meet their quotas.
The interesting bit for Abbadon will be that he will also be trying not to let the big 4 take over real space.
Fair points, but it seems a bit academic in terms of power level descriptions between a Daemon Prince and a lesser Chaos god. Is the only real distinction that Daemon Princes are elevated mortals, while Vashtorr was a warp entitiy from the start?
I think vashtor will be the result of some crazy experiment by the dark mech to make a powerful demon engine and they got a lot more than they bargained for
Well I was just speculating cos I’d clearly missed that. But being that he represent the unchecked advancement of technology doesn’t mean he didn’t manifest due to a specific event or set of activities. Slaneesh was born by the actions of the eldar. Why would vashtorr have some similar kind of birth?
But he does seem to be an interesting case study in how an entity becomes a God in 40K.
Going right back to Realms of Chaos, there are mentions of independent Daemons and Lesser Gods, with the line between the two being blurred, as it’s just a matter of how much power they hold. The implication of course is all the Gods started off as a fart in a jar Daemon, only to become swollen with power from specific emotions common across the Galaxy (ref Orgo and F’toomsh in The Young One’s, and their likelihood of being summoned, I guess)
So Vashtorr falls into that quite neatly. I’m certainly keen to read his background, hoping for another “square out the park” like we got with Leagues of Votann.
Well I was just speculating cos I’d clearly missed that. But being that he represent the unchecked advancement of technology doesn’t mean he didn’t manifest due to a specific event or set of activities. Slaneesh was born by the actions of the eldar. Why would vashtorr have some similar kind of birth?
If i had to guess i'd say he'll encroach on some of the territory that used to be a minor aspect of Khorne back in the earlier editions: The 'science' of war and murder, basically, all the thing humans cunningly built and invented over the millenia to better kill and maim their contemporaries. Stuff like cannons, shrapnel, mines, machine guns and all that. In the older editions of Epic Khorne had an interesting menagerie of demon engines that incorporated a lot of these. Science and Engineering turned to destructive and evil purposes, in essence.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Going right back to Realms of Chaos, there are mentions of independent Daemons and Lesser Gods, with the line between the two being blurred, as it’s just a matter of how much power they hold. The implication of course is all the Gods started off as a fart in a jar Daemon, only to become swollen with power from specific emotions common across the Galaxy (ref Orgo and F’toomsh in The Young One’s, and their likelihood of being summoned, I guess)
A more recent example of a thing somewhere between Demon and God would be Drach'nyen as it was presented in Master of Mankind - basically the demi-god of the first intentional murder among men.
mrFickle wrote: Malice is still a thing I believe? Just never talked about.
Wouldn’t it be cool if vashtorr was actually the demon Prince evolution of one of the missing primarchs
Yeah, Malal/Malice pops up about every decade in some side project, mainly as a bone thrown to the old farts Zuvassin, an even lesser known minor deity from back when, recently had a cameo appearance in the boxed game Silver Tower and a novel as well. Necoho remains AWOL, just like it would have liked it
If i had to guess i'd say he'll encroach on some of the territory that used to be a minor aspect of Khorne back in the earlier editions: The 'science' of war and murder, basically, all the thing humans cunningly built and invented over the millenia to better kill and maim their contemporaries. Stuff like cannons, shrapnel, mines, machine guns and all that. In the older editions of Epic Khorne had an interesting menagerie of demon engines that incorporated a lot of these. Science and Engineering turned to destructive and evil purposes, in essence.
Also encroaches on Tzeench through the powerful change brought on by technological development, Slaanesh due to the search for excellence fe in technical crafting. I can’t think of a Nurgle link off the top of my head, but technical development does lead to things like Crispr.
If i had to guess i'd say he'll encroach on some of the territory that used to be a minor aspect of Khorne back in the earlier editions: The 'science' of war and murder, basically, all the thing humans cunningly built and invented over the millenia to better kill and maim their contemporaries. Stuff like cannons, shrapnel, mines, machine guns and all that. In the older editions of Epic Khorne had an interesting menagerie of demon engines that incorporated a lot of these. Science and Engineering turned to destructive and evil purposes, in essence.
Also encroaches on Tzeench through the powerful change brought on by technological development, Slaanesh due to the search for excellence fe in technical crafting. I can’t think of a Nurgle link off the top of my head, but technical development does lead to things like Crispr.
Which might explain how he’s not ascended to Godhood just yet. If a device of war is invented? Most of that goes to Khorne as God of war and murder and saying “Boo!” to other people’s Grannies - but Vashtorr still got his scraps of power. Same for the other Gods, with relative scraps being left for Vashtorr to scoff.
This is reflected in the overall threat of Slaanesh to its brothers. Any act of excess or pride leaves at least a morsel on Slaanesh’s table, even if the five course meal went elsewhere.
If i had to guess i'd say he'll encroach on some of the territory that used to be a minor aspect of Khorne back in the earlier editions: The 'science' of war and murder, basically, all the thing humans cunningly built and invented over the millenia to better kill and maim their contemporaries. Stuff like cannons, shrapnel, mines, machine guns and all that. In the older editions of Epic Khorne had an interesting menagerie of demon engines that incorporated a lot of these. Science and Engineering turned to destructive and evil purposes, in essence.
Also encroaches on Tzeench through the powerful change brought on by technological development, Slaanesh due to the search for excellence fe in technical crafting. I can’t think of a Nurgle link off the top of my head, but technical development does lead to things like Crispr.
Hmmm, Nurgle could overlap through the development of bio, chemical, and cyber weapons like computer viruses and phosphex equipment.
If i had to guess i'd say he'll encroach on some of the territory that used to be a minor aspect of Khorne back in the earlier editions: The 'science' of war and murder, basically, all the thing humans cunningly built and invented over the millenia to better kill and maim their contemporaries. Stuff like cannons, shrapnel, mines, machine guns and all that. In the older editions of Epic Khorne had an interesting menagerie of demon engines that incorporated a lot of these. Science and Engineering turned to destructive and evil purposes, in essence.
Also encroaches on Tzeench through the powerful change brought on by technological development, Slaanesh due to the search for excellence fe in technical crafting. I can’t think of a Nurgle link off the top of my head, but technical development does lead to things like Crispr.
Hmmm, Nurgle could overlap through the development of bio, chemical, and cyber weapons like computer viruses and phosphex equipment.
Nurgle would feel right at home in the dehumanization and hopelessness of industrialized warfare. The trenches of WW1 are quintessentially nurglish.
A threat to Nurgle as well though, in the form of development of cures. Makes me think of Good Omens, and how Plague is replaced by Pollution as one of the 4 Horsepersons
Strictly speaking, any life preserving tech would be feeding Nurgle, as he’s as much a God of Life as plague. Indeed, his fondness for bacteria and viruses and that stems from having no “ranking” of lives. If one of us dies, and billions of bacteria thrive on our corpse, it’s a no-Brainer to him.
There’s a word eluding me. Like profundity, but about proliferation of life and frankly it’s pissing me off!
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Strictly speaking, any life preserving tech would be feeding Nurgle, as he’s as much a God of Life as plague. Indeed, his fondness for bacteria and viruses and that stems from having no “ranking” of lives. If one of us dies, and billions of bacteria thrive on our corpse, it’s a no-Brainer to him.
There’s a word eluding me. Like profundity, but about proliferation of life and frankly it’s pissing me off!
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Strictly speaking, any life preserving tech would be feeding Nurgle, as he’s as much a God of Life as plague. Indeed, his fondness for bacteria and viruses and that stems from having no “ranking” of lives. If one of us dies, and billions of bacteria thrive on our corpse, it’s a no-Brainer to him.
There’s a word eluding me. Like profundity, but about proliferation of life and frankly it’s pissing me off!
Fecundity?
Yes! Thank you!
I swear, every time I was trying to recall it, Mr Brain suggested profundity, was told no, then suggested it again.
But yes. Nurgle is about fecundity and rampant life - he just sees no difference between simple and complex life, and will go with fecundity every time. But even so, if it’s Clone Tech, that does feed Nurgle as it’s still new life being born, outside of the usual natural order.
If memory serves from the livestream, it’s less the existence of technology that feeds Vashtorr, and more innovation. So if I designed say, a new Lasgun? That design process is his smorgasbord, with each Lasgun then produced according to the template being, I dunno, a mote of flour dust. Nourishment, but to a much lesser individual degree. But a Jokaero adapting one of said Lasguns, is a sandwich.
Hence I’m pretty sure he’s playing Abaddon for a fool. A final victory of Chaos, before he ascends, would, arguably, cause galactic anarchy, replacing advancement with superstition, ritual and rote. And that constant, constant trickle he gets now is still moving him closer to Godhood than a complete arrest or lessening of that trickle.
And it’s not so much The Imperium he’s sneakily preserving for sake of his dinner table, but the current status quo.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Strictly speaking, any life preserving tech would be feeding Nurgle, as he’s as much a God of Life as plague. Indeed, his fondness for bacteria and viruses and that stems from having no “ranking” of lives. If one of us dies, and billions of bacteria thrive on our corpse, it’s a no-Brainer to him.
There’s a word eluding me. Like profundity, but about proliferation of life and frankly it’s pissing me off!
Fecundity?
Yes! Thank you!
I swear, every time I was trying to recall it, Mr Brain suggested profundity, was told no, then suggested it again.
But yes. Nurgle is about fecundity and rampant life - he just sees no difference between simple and complex life, and will go with fecundity every time. But even so, if it’s Clone Tech, that does feed Nurgle as it’s still new life being born, outside of the usual natural order.
If memory serves from the livestream, it’s less the existence of technology that feeds Vashtorr, and more innovation. So if I designed say, a new Lasgun? That design process is his smorgasbord, with each Lasgun then produced according to the template being, I dunno, a mote of flour dust. Nourishment, but to a much lesser individual degree. But a Jokaero adapting one of said Lasguns, is a sandwich.
Hence I’m pretty sure he’s playing Abaddon for a fool. A final victory of Chaos, before he ascends, would, arguably, cause galactic anarchy, replacing advancement with superstition, ritual and rote. And that constant, constant trickle he gets now is still moving him closer to Godhood than a complete arrest or lessening of that trickle.
And it’s not so much The Imperium he’s sneakily preserving for sake of his dinner table, but the current status quo.
Vasthorr could, for the near future, end up being something like an Evil Merlin to Abaddon as Evil Arthur... especially if the Lion returns, who also has a lot of Arthurian motives going on, and Arthurian Legend / Dark Ages britannia is one way to look at the Imperium Nihilus. For added tin foil, don't limit yourself to the classics of Arthurian literature, but include the New Age stuff like Mists of Avalon as well, which is chock-full of faux celtic religion and myth, which of course nicely ties into the Eldar background in general and Exodites in particular... hmmm...
I quite like Vasthorr as an addition. I think it's generally good to reflect the range of Chaos as a bit wider than the four main gods.There are no doubt scores of minor entities that would quite like to ascend, and it's cool to introduce one.
I'd really like to see how he would interact with Void Dragon shards too, that would be a cool story.
Generally the fluff additions for AOO seem *way* better than Psychic Awakening at this point.
I think the key is not so much the return of the Lion (who is a point in the prophecy but not the end), but is likely some mcguffin to push past the Golden Throne for a warp invasion of Terra (which means the key will never actually get built, but it's a decent threat).
So apparently the latest WD confirms Arks of Omen will consist of five books - not the four teased during that reveals show. With a “technically sixth” volume being presented in White Dwarf.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: So apparently the latest WD confirms Arks of Omen will consist of five books - not the four teased during that reveals show. With a “technically sixth” volume being presented in White Dwarf.
Number 5 is probably the Lion... that would at least explain why they have not yet teased the book. That would allow him to squeeze in just before tenth edition.
Tried and tested my dude. For what it’s worth, I’ve greatly enjoyed the Flash Point articles over the past few years.
Yeah, everything that increases the value of WD is a good thing. As long as they eventually collect it in an anthology or make it available otherwise, why not. Back in the day almost every issue of WD had 'DLC', did not do any harm.
Tried and tested my dude. For what it’s worth, I’ve greatly enjoyed the Flash Point articles over the past few years.
Yeah, everything that increases the value of WD is a good thing. As long as they eventually collect it in an anthology or make it available otherwise, why not. Back in the day almost every issue of WD had 'DLC', did not do any harm.
Eh…depends on the era. I’m currently on a mission to track down which WD had post Titan Legions additions for Epic Space Marine, as those never did get an anthology. Same for some 2nd Ed 40K additions.
mrFickle wrote: Malice is still a thing I believe? Just never talked about.
Wouldn’t it be cool if vashtorr was actually the demon Prince evolution of one of the missing primarchs
The two missing primarchs are the center rail. They'll never be or get anything because they're the McGuffin for DIY Chapters that aren't "successor" chapters.
Gert wrote: They were originally but now they are their own thing.
Yes, successor chapters are the mechanism by which you homebrew your own chapter. I fully believe that one day GW will be trying to figure out how they can’t make more money off 40K (which I’m not begrudging them) and they will have no where left to go except the missing primarchs. I might be ild and infirm by the time it happens but they can only milk the HH for so long
By the time GW ever decides to bring the Lost Primarchs into 40k then everyone on this forum will be long dead.
They can milk the armies that need updates for years while adding piecemeal Marine units to keep the masses happy.
Gert wrote: By the time GW ever decides to bring the Lost Primarchs into 40k then everyone on this forum will be long dead.
They can milk the armies that need updates for years while adding piecemeal Marine units to keep the masses happy.
If they keep the current pace they can easily do multiple decades of slow-burn plot advancement just by having a single primarch return every couple of years, and that's before we get into shenanigans like multiple independet shards, clones, reincarnations, living saints, warp ghosts and all the other possibilities that already canonically exist in the setting.
mrFickle wrote: Malice is still a thing I believe? Just never talked about.
Wouldn’t it be cool if vashtorr was actually the demon Prince evolution of one of the missing primarchs
The two missing primarchs are the center rail. They'll never be or get anything because they're the McGuffin for DIY Chapters that aren't "successor" chapters.
They haven’t really been that for a long long time.
It doesn’t fit the lore any more, they weren’t around at the point of Legions becoming Chapters, getting successor foundings or anything. Already just in the UM by then, so a successor to those is all it would be.
I would like book five to be the Lion, as I want him to arrive.
Did it say somewhere it was Imperium vs Chaos in book 5? Which means it still fits.
What was the quote about dlc WD part of AoO?
mrFickle wrote: Malice is still a thing I believe? Just never talked about.
Wouldn’t it be cool if vashtorr was actually the demon Prince evolution of one of the missing primarchs
The two missing primarchs are the center rail. They'll never be or get anything because they're the McGuffin for DIY Chapters that aren't "successor" chapters.
They haven’t really been that for a long long time.
It doesn’t fit the lore any more, they weren’t around at the point of Legions becoming Chapters, getting successor foundings or anything. Already just in the UM by then, so a successor to those is all it would be.
I would like book five to be the Lion, as I want him to arrive.
Did it say somewhere it was Imperium vs Chaos in book 5? Which means it still fits.
What was the quote about dlc WD part of AoO?
Although that would be cool Vashtorr being a missing Primarch. I think it would take away from that book being Azrael vsVashtorr. Just because it'd be like seeing Angron vs Calgar. It's a no contest slap.
It very well may be a no contest slap, but if it's the poster fight of that book I imagine it should be a decent fight. After all Az did manage to take down a Helldrake whilst running accros rooftops, on his own. He's no slouch but he's no Primarch either.
As for book 5 being Lion I think that is very likely at this stage. With Vashtorr, Angron, Magnus, Mortarion and Abaddon. It's currently a 5 v 1 against GMan. He needs the help.
Is it said anywhere why Angron can now seemingly not be banished for any length of time? That time he got banished on Armageddon he was out of action for 100 years and a day.
Iracundus wrote: Is it said anywhere why Angron can now seemingly not be banished for any length of time? That time he got banished on Armageddon he was out of action for 100 years and a day.
He got the favour of the dread entity Mha Ke'Tyng, imbuing him with constant availability
I won't take credit for this, since people on reddit have long figured this out.
It seems the Emperor's Tarot works in 4 cards per book and people have already started solving the puzzle on what each of them coincides with in the overarching story.
Spoiler:
I - Galaxy: The first book is much wider in scope than the upcoming books. The main campaign is being explained.
II - The Despoiler: Abbadon, Obviously
III - The Hulk: Describes the Arks of Omen and the Balefleets.
IV - The Silver Key: The Device that the Arks of Omen are probably searching the many fragments of.
V - The Great Hoste: The Second book focuses on the World Eaters Legion, and specifically...
VI - The Hound: ...Angron.
VII - The Shattered World: Now we are finally realising what the cards slowly mean. The Shattered World is Malakbael, which at the end of Book 2 gets destroyed by Angron's interference with the Choral Engine.
VIII - God-Emperor Inversed: This might be the consequences of Malakbael's destruction; the Murder-curse, which caused a massive-scale murderous rage in anyone who was near the planet, including the entirety of Fleet Quartus, which was declared traitor.
Now we are headed into speculation involving the cards from upcoming books. If it is indeed 4 per book, we can guess at what each of them means.
Spoiler:
IX - Daemon: Seeing as the next book is about Vashtorr, this card is probably him.
X - Astartes: Probably hinting at the foe he will face, and seeing as it depicts a green-robed angel, we can safely guess the Dark Angels.
XI - The Lightning Tower: Vashtorr will lay siege to the Rock. Rumours already hinted that this woud be the case.
XII - Daemon Inversed: What might happen it seems is that Vashtorr will not succeed in his dealings on the Rock, but it will be thanks to some other Chaos Entity. I've seen people speculate that it might be the Fallen, which has some merit, but it wouldn't surprise me if something else will bout against Vashtorr.
XIII - The Horde: The sword indicates that we are headed for the 4th book to the Farsight Enclaves. The Horde in question I believe is going to be the forces under the influence of the Murder-Curse instigated by Angron's attack on Malakbael. They talk about blood-drunk and blood-maddened, which describes the affliction quite well. Some say it's Greenskins, but Crimson Verminous hordes kind of fits the idea of Blood-Maddened Imperials a lot nicer.
XIV - The Young Warrior: It is Farsight. He has the Dawn Blade in Hand and people have noted that the Red-armoured horse is his Battlesuit. They talk about a crossroads here, so I believe that the 4th book will have Farsight either struggling to not fall into the clutches of the Murder-Curse, or have to make a difficult decision in order to save the Enclaves.
Yeah. The Emperor's Tarot is a lot more interesting now. When they first appeared, they kind of seemed to be pretty generic, but now that we actually are figuring out what each of them means, it finally feels like proper foreshadowing.
As I’ve speculated before, I think Vashtorr is pulling a fast one on Abaddon.
As a Daemon/nascent God powered by innovation, a Galaxy descended full into Chaos doesn’t help him much.
I reckon whatever he has up his sleeve is purely about him reaching Godhood, at the expense of Chaos’ greater victory. Because once you’re a God, there doesn’t seem a whole lot of retribution that’s going to stick.
Hence the Daemon Inversed may be him fixing or turning on some important piece of tech which empowers The Rock.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: As I’ve speculated before, I think Vashtorr is pulling a fast one on Abaddon.
As a Daemon/nascent God powered by innovation, a Galaxy descended full into Chaos doesn’t help him much.
I reckon whatever he has up his sleeve is purely about him reaching Godhood, at the expense of Chaos’ greater victory. Because once you’re a God, there doesn’t seem a whole lot of retribution that’s going to stick.
Hence the Daemon Inversed may be him fixing or turning on some important piece of tech which empowers The Rock.
One of the articles on the community page mentioned that Vashtorr acts a bit like the classic fairy-tale Devil or Djinn do: he sticks exactly to the contract you made with him, but he usually ensures that that contract has loopholes or tricks in it that get him the upper hand.
Segersgia wrote: I won't take credit for this, since people on reddit have long figured this out.
It seems the Emperor's Tarot works in 4 cards per book and people have already started solving the puzzle on what each of them coincides with in the overarching story.
Spoiler:
I - Galaxy: The first book is much wider in scope than the upcoming books. The main campaign is being explained.
II - The Despoiler: Abbadon, Obviously
III - The Hulk: Describes the Arks of Omen and the Balefleets.
IV - The Silver Key: The Device that the Arks of Omen are probably searching the many fragments of.
V - The Great Hoste: The Second book focuses on the World Eaters Legion, and specifically...
VI - The Hound: ...Angron.
VII - The Shattered World: Now we are finally realising what the cards slowly mean. The Shattered World is Malakbael, which at the end of Book 2 gets destroyed by Angron's interference with the Choral Engine.
VIII - God-Emperor Inversed: This might be the consequences of Malakbael's destruction; the Murder-curse, which caused a massive-scale murderous rage in anyone who was near the planet, including the entirety of Fleet Quartus, which was declared traitor.
Now we are headed into speculation involving the cards from upcoming books. If it is indeed 4 per book, we can guess at what each of them means.
Spoiler:
IX - Daemon: Seeing as the next book is about Vashtorr, this card is probably him.
X - Astartes: Probably hinting at the foe he will face, and seeing as it depicts a green-robed angel, we can safely guess the Dark Angels.
XI - The Lightning Tower: Vashtorr will lay siege to the Rock. Rumours already hinted that this woud be the case.
XII - Daemon Inversed: What might happen it seems is that Vashtorr will not succeed in his dealings on the Rock, but it will be thanks to some other Chaos Entity. I've seen people speculate that it might be the Fallen, which has some merit, but it wouldn't surprise me if something else will bout against Vashtorr.
XIII - The Horde: The sword indicates that we are headed for the 4th book to the Farsight Enclaves. The Horde in question I believe is going to be the forces under the influence of the Murder-Curse instigated by Angron's attack on Malakbael. They talk about blood-drunk and blood-maddened, which describes the affliction quite well. Some say it's Greenskins, but Crimson Verminous hordes kind of fits the idea of Blood-Maddened Imperials a lot nicer.
XIV - The Young Warrior: It is Farsight. He has the Dawn Blade in Hand and people have noted that the Red-armoured horse is his Battlesuit. They talk about a crossroads here, so I believe that the 4th book will have Farsight either struggling to not fall into the clutches of the Murder-Curse, or have to make a difficult decision in order to save the Enclaves.
Yeah. The Emperor's Tarot is a lot more interesting now. When they first appeared, they kind of seemed to be pretty generic, but now that we actually are figuring out what each of them means, it finally feels like proper foreshadowing.
This does make the whole thing much more interesting. Not knowing much about tarot cards, doesn't a card inversed generally mean its opposite, so Daemon inversed could be referring to a Primarch, something to do with the Lion? More likely some form of betrayal between Chaos factions but its fun to speculate.
Segersgia wrote: I won't take credit for this, since people on reddit have long figured this out.
It seems the Emperor's Tarot works in 4 cards per book and people have already started solving the puzzle on what each of them coincides with in the overarching story.
Spoiler:
I - Galaxy: The first book is much wider in scope than the upcoming books. The main campaign is being explained.
II - The Despoiler: Abbadon, Obviously
III - The Hulk: Describes the Arks of Omen and the Balefleets.
IV - The Silver Key: The Device that the Arks of Omen are probably searching the many fragments of.
V - The Great Hoste: The Second book focuses on the World Eaters Legion, and specifically...
VI - The Hound: ...Angron.
VII - The Shattered World: Now we are finally realising what the cards slowly mean. The Shattered World is Malakbael, which at the end of Book 2 gets destroyed by Angron's interference with the Choral Engine.
VIII - God-Emperor Inversed: This might be the consequences of Malakbael's destruction; the Murder-curse, which caused a massive-scale murderous rage in anyone who was near the planet, including the entirety of Fleet Quartus, which was declared traitor.
Now we are headed into speculation involving the cards from upcoming books. If it is indeed 4 per book, we can guess at what each of them means.
Spoiler:
IX - Daemon: Seeing as the next book is about Vashtorr, this card is probably him.
X - Astartes: Probably hinting at the foe he will face, and seeing as it depicts a green-robed angel, we can safely guess the Dark Angels.
XI - The Lightning Tower: Vashtorr will lay siege to the Rock. Rumours already hinted that this woud be the case.
XII - Daemon Inversed: What might happen it seems is that Vashtorr will not succeed in his dealings on the Rock, but it will be thanks to some other Chaos Entity. I've seen people speculate that it might be the Fallen, which has some merit, but it wouldn't surprise me if something else will bout against Vashtorr.
XIII - The Horde: The sword indicates that we are headed for the 4th book to the Farsight Enclaves. The Horde in question I believe is going to be the forces under the influence of the Murder-Curse instigated by Angron's attack on Malakbael. They talk about blood-drunk and blood-maddened, which describes the affliction quite well. Some say it's Greenskins, but Crimson Verminous hordes kind of fits the idea of Blood-Maddened Imperials a lot nicer.
XIV - The Young Warrior: It is Farsight. He has the Dawn Blade in Hand and people have noted that the Red-armoured horse is his Battlesuit. They talk about a crossroads here, so I believe that the 4th book will have Farsight either struggling to not fall into the clutches of the Murder-Curse, or have to make a difficult decision in order to save the Enclaves.
Yeah. The Emperor's Tarot is a lot more interesting now. When they first appeared, they kind of seemed to be pretty generic, but now that we actually are figuring out what each of them means, it finally feels like proper foreshadowing.
This does make the whole thing much more interesting. Not knowing much about tarot cards, doesn't a card inversed generally mean its opposite, so Daemon inversed could be referring to a Primarch, something to do with the Lion? More likely some form of betrayal between Chaos factions but its fun to speculate.
Know a few things about Tarot, but an inversed card doesn't necessarily mean its full opposite, but sometimes an aversion of the original meaning or even a more personal meaning of the card. Death for example in actual Tarot stands for change and endings in your surroundings, but inversed, means either a resistance to that change happening, or a more personal bond with that change.
Now, we know thanks to the videos what the meaning is of both the upright, and reversed cards for Daemon. The Upright version talks about the thinning of the veil between realms, while the inversed one specifically notes the fickle backstabbing nature of chaos.
I think we should take the descriptions of these cards at face value though. Vashtorr will be inconvenienced in some way thanks to infighting or thanks to a rival interfering.
My theory; Vashtorr's full plan is going after the Lion himself and finding his chambers empty, with the cause of that being the Fallen, or some chaos entity.
Fun thing; while the tarot reading for the Emperor Inversed kind of generically says the end of the Imperium, Lexicanum has a slightly different meaning from an older source. The Inversed Emperor means specifically the chaos corruption of imperial servants, which literally is what happens in the second book of this series.
Today’s tarot card is the fool inversed. Something about “a change of spirit from fury to serenity” so possibly some sort of hint of Angron getting defeated?
Aash wrote: Today’s tarot card is the fool inversed. Something about “a change of spirit from fury to serenity” so possibly some sort of hint of Angron getting defeated?
The wand the Fool is holding is topped with a Tau Ethereal honor blade like Aun'shi's.
The previous card was the Young Warrior with possible reference to Farsight, and how a light guttering in the black may "scourge the Red Tide or drown beneath its waves".
My take on this is Farsight somehow gets involved and gets tempted by Khorne or falls temporarily into a blind rage perhaps due to the Murder Curse. Then under the influence of an honour blade wielding Ethereal, perhaps Aun'shi, the fury is lifted and exchanged for serenity, and then Farsight goes on to do whatever is needed for the plot which may mean thwarting Angron/Vashtorr/Chaos in general,
Aash wrote: Today’s tarot card is the fool inversed. Something about “a change of spirit from fury to serenity” so possibly some sort of hint of Angron getting defeated?
The wand the Fool is holding is topped with a Tau Ethereal honor blade like Aun'shi's.
The previous card was the Young Warrior with possible reference to Farsight, and how a light guttering in the black may "scourge the Red Tide or drown beneath its waves".
My take on this is Farsight somehow gets involved and gets tempted by Khorne or falls temporarily into a blind rage perhaps due to the Murder Curse. Then under the influence of an honour blade wielding Ethereal, perhaps Aun'shi, the fury is lifted and exchanged for serenity, and then Farsight goes on to do whatever is needed for the plot which may mean thwarting Angron/Vashtorr/Chaos in general,
Why would Farsight need an Ethereal to avoid that influence?
That's what the blade and the hexagrammatic wards let the Enclaves do when they encountered a Bloodthirster early on.
I'd lean more towards an Ethereal being influenced than Farsight. Would explain the commentary a bit better for the Fool card.
I was kind of confused by this reading, but then it hit me... Burning Stars... The Damocles Gulf!
If I were Abaddon and I saw this I would be like...Ok I give up. Not trying anymore.
Come to think of it, that might be a far more interesting story. Abaddon is tired of having his 1000 year plans foiled again and again so he just gives up and takes a vacation to some place in the Eye of Terror. Then the other chaos primarchs have to convince him to get back in the game.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: As a Daemon Prince, and how will affects warp stuff, I’m OK with it.
Yeah, but there's more than point where he seems to just want to give and peacefully into oblivion - and then Khorne pokes the Nails. As someone who is NOT a fan of Khorne, I just found the whole thing boring. Even if I were a fan, I'd find it hard to root for a guy who succeeds despite himself (between the number of times he gets blasted and the times he doesn't care).
Even the Incredible Hulk manages to give a crap once in a while...
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: It feeds into the tragedy of Angron though. Created and “born” a Primarch, he has never known freedom.
He lead the slave revolt on Nuceria, and was fully willing to die in dedication to that cause, and alongside his fellow Gladiators.
The Emperor abducted him, and became essentially just another slave master to Angron.
He rebels against The Emperor…and becomes slave to Khorne instead.
Even his Daemonhood and immortality was forced upon him.
He wants freedom. He wants an end to his tortured existence. And everyone who has ever called them self his master has refused it.
For me, that takes what could be a very one dimensional character and gives them interesting depth.
All that is true...and yet the story itself in Arks of Omen for Angron still gets repetitive and boring.
It still essentially he is so angry and wants to die but won't kill himself. When he does seemingly get his wish multiple times....he is so angry he won't let go and reforms himself. How he succeeds in the end is sitll a variation of charging at the enemy and being so angry he won't die (plus having infinite respawns helps).
For me the infinite respawns removes all narrative tension as it removes all risk and consequences to any of Angron's actions, no matter how dumb they might be. Why care about tactics after all if you can just run (or fly/drop) at the enemy, secure in the knowledge that if you get caught in even something like an anti-orbital laser's shot (which happens in the story), you can reform within seconds none the worse for wear?
Also there is little reason given for why Angron can respawn so quickly when after Armageddon it took him 100 years and 1 day, beyond the theory that maybe there is so much warp energy spilling from the Rift that it allows this. Of course, then why don't Magnus and Mortarion have this ability? The reason is purely a game reason, given that Angron has only melee.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: But is it truly his own anger, or Khorne and the Nails forcing him ever onward?
Either way, it creates a one dimensional character that is essentially has no agency or responsibility for their actions. He might as well be an automaton.
Indeed, lack of thought and consciousness is a theme repeated multiple times in the World Eaters Codex. It seems the desired end state for a truly dedicated Khorne worshipper is unconsciousness. Multiple Khorne POV characters in the Codex have essentially blackouts and gaps in their memory where they fought and killed but have no memory of what they did or how they got to where they were. It is almost Zen-like and the Sages of Slaughter section even describes how they aim for an endless state of flow. An eternal state of the present.
The problem about writing about such characters is that they are essentially one note characters, with their fragmented memory and consciousness, with any dregs of thought and identity essentially passengers in their own body. Now maybe you could do stories about Khorne characters that are not so fallen but then these characters probably end up as fodder for those that have fallen that far.
However for me the bit about Angron's story that irks me the most is the infinite respawning. It then becomes like playing a computer game on God mode. Angron can't lose. No suspense or tension then. Would the Grey Knights have been able to banish him longer or would he have popped back a few seconds later?
Angron is akin to a force of nature now. Even The Conqueror is simply a means to an end, a reliable way for Angron to get from A to B.
The World Eaters force involved was the largest seen since its de facto dissolution as a Legion. Yet…Angron explicitly didn’t care. He was there to destroy the Choral Engine. If others came along for the ride it was no concern of his.
We also have a pretty decent tradition of Khorne not allowing his favourite toys to die. Kharn is one, Valkia is another.
I do get why others won’t like it, so genuinely respectfully I think we’ll just have to Agree to Disagree
Angron is akin to a force of nature now. Even The Conqueror is simply a means to an end, a reliable way for Angron to get from A to B.
The World Eaters force involved was the largest seen since its de facto dissolution as a Legion. Yet…Angron explicitly didn’t care. He was there to destroy the Choral Engine. If others came along for the ride it was no concern of his.
We also have a pretty decent tradition of Khorne not allowing his favourite toys to die. Kharn is one, Valkia is another.
I do get why others won’t like it, so genuinely respectfully I think we’ll just have to Agree to Disagree
Khorne might not allow some of his favorite toys to die, but I don't think it has ever gotten this far to where they are resurrecting within seconds of their death. Kharn was in a coma for a significant time. Also Kharn still had a body whereas Angron in Arks of Omens was literally atomized at least once, and torn to shreds multiple times.
I generally am for factional balance in the sense that I don't want any faction to have a seemingly guaranteed "I win" button. Every faction should have fallibility and potential meaningful failure risk. Short of direct Emperor intervention, I don't see how that exists any more for Angron.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: With Angron, he himself doesn’t have a plan. And we’re shown he cares not one joy what Abaddon wants.
His actions here benefitted Abaddon and Vashtorr purely because he wanted to destroy the Choral Engine.
That done? Who knows where he’ll turn up next. And it was solely his outrage at the Choral Engine that kept him going this time.
Doesn't matter if he hasn't got a plan though. Khorne might have. And even without plan he can just rampage through entire imperium alone sinc you can't get rid of him for any sane time.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: With Angron, he himself doesn’t have a plan. And we’re shown he cares not one joy what Abaddon wants.
His actions here benefitted Abaddon and Vashtorr purely because he wanted to destroy the Choral Engine.
That done? Who knows where he’ll turn up next. And it was solely his outrage at the Choral Engine that kept him going this time.
Doesn't matter if he hasn't got a plan though. Khorne might have. And even without plan he can just rampage through entire imperium alone sinc you can't get rid of him for any sane time.
Yes that last bit is the key point. It doesn't show Angron to be strong, skilled, or brave if he has infinite respawning. Throw him on Terra and he would be able to chop his way to the Emperor through sheer attrition. An unstoppable antagonist that resurrects in seconds makes it futile for any other character in the background to do anything. That doesn't allow for many interesting stories for other characters.
At least before on Armageddon, it was shown that Angron had limitations. He had to stop to build monuments and sacrifice in order to keep sufficient warp energy to sustain his daemonic army and himself. He in the end still fell to 100 Grey Knights, demonstrating that no matter how powerful an individual daemon Primarch might be, sufficient skill and sacrifice could still defeat them. For 100 years and a day, Angron then could not manifest and even when that passed, he didn't just pop back onto Armageddon, so that battle and victory had some significance and lasting effect.
Even within the Arks of Omen story, it was said that Angron would take 8 days 8 hours etc... before manifesting again, yet once the action started it was seconds, so they aren't even internally consistent. (Yes, I know that source was an in character source and therefore could be wrong about Angron but still...)
Seems a bit silly. Hopefully they'll ay least say it was because he was just so driven for this story or something and normal state of affairs resume. Wont save this story from the silliness but may save future ones
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: With Angron, he himself doesn’t have a plan. And we’re shown he cares not one joy what Abaddon wants.
His actions here benefitted Abaddon and Vashtorr purely because he wanted to destroy the Choral Engine.
That done? Who knows where he’ll turn up next. And it was solely his outrage at the Choral Engine that kept him going this time.
Doesn't matter if he hasn't got a plan though. Khorne might have. And even without plan he can just rampage through entire imperium alone sinc you can't get rid of him for any sane time.
Yeah, let's not forget Khorne cheating - AGAIN.
...or the Tzeentch guys being made to look like fools - AGAIN.
It's a no-win situation for GWIMO.
Either Angron wins and doesn't get banished then people complain that it's unfair cos he was too OP in the story, or Angron loses and a different set of people complain because Angron is extremely powerful but somehow can't even win in his debut new model story. God forbid a stalemate happens because that would just annoy everyone.
...or the Tzeentch guys being made to look like fools - AGAIN.
to be fair, the Tzeentchian types getting played is a reoccouring theme of Tzeentch. part of his "plans within plans" schtick. Tzeentch is always playing his pawns against his other pawns, because he finds it fun and is hopelessly addicted to scheming, so schemes against himself.
Gert wrote: It's a no-win situation for GWIMO.
Either Angron wins and doesn't get banished then people complain that it's unfair cos he was too OP in the story, or Angron loses and a different set of people complain because Angron is extremely powerful but somehow can't even win in his debut new model story. God forbid a stalemate happens because that would just annoy everyone.
I'm fine with Angron winning, the issue is that he won partly by being an insta-respawning unkillable force. The issue is the lack of potential consequences, not whether those consequences actually happened. There isn't any tension if he can be melted by an orbital strike then just keep going like nothing happened.
It would have been fine if he, well, hadn't been hit by an orbital strike...
I wouldn't have minded it as much if there were more limitations on his respawning, like if say Angron were to be limited to 8 respawns for a given campaign/battle (8 because Khorne's number since GW was already going on about that). That way Angron would still have had to show some consideration for the enemy's actions and risk potential failure. Maybe he could have been on his last life when he finally made it to the Choral Engine.
Gert wrote: It's a no-win situation for GWIMO.
Either Angron wins and doesn't get banished then people complain that it's unfair cos he was too OP in the story, or Angron loses and a different set of people complain because Angron is extremely powerful but somehow can't even win in his debut new model story. God forbid a stalemate happens because that would just annoy everyone.
So now we got op angron that will singlehandedly kill of imperium, orks, tyranids, necrons and nothing anybody can do about it.
Gert wrote: It's a no-win situation for GWIMO.
Either Angron wins and doesn't get banished then people complain that it's unfair cos he was too OP in the story, or Angron loses and a different set of people complain because Angron is extremely powerful but somehow can't even win in his debut new model story. God forbid a stalemate happens because that would just annoy everyone.
I'm fine with Angron winning, the issue is that he won partly by being an insta-respawning unkillable force. The issue is the lack of potential consequences, not whether those consequences actually happened. There isn't any tension if he can be melted by an orbital strike then just keep going like nothing happened.
It would have been fine if he, well, hadn't been hit by an orbital strike...
Put him into stasis for example, or shoot him into the vast emptiness of space (assuming he doesn't need air anymore as a demon). A Tesseract pokeball might do the trick as well.
Or a specific banishment ritual. Destroying his physical form isn’t what it previously was. But if you give him a ritual kicking? Who truly knows at this stage.
Segersgia wrote: I really think that there are interesting ways of having Angron's immortality create an interesting narrative.
If factions realise that killing him isn't an option anymore, they might look for ways that neutralize hime without banishing him.
Like how? Talk to him and send flowers & chocolate?-)
By the most imperial of sanctions: trapping him in constant paperwork.
On a more serious note: Stasis fields or shunting him into one of the readily available weird parallel/pocket dimensions might work. Tesseract vaults, a bubble in the Webway, stuff like that. Had to be somewhere where the Dark Gods can't easily reach, and ideally where he can't just kill himself and reappear elsewhere.
I wonder what would happen if you were to lure him into an area, trigger a similar effect as the Pariah Nexus (though on a smaller scale), then "nuke" Angry Ron from orbit until there's nothing left of his body...
Iracundus wrote: Yes that last bit is the key point. It doesn't show Angron to be strong, skilled, or brave if he has infinite respawning. Throw him on Terra and he would be able to chop his way to the Emperor through sheer attrition. An unstoppable antagonist that resurrects in seconds makes it futile for any other character in the background to do anything. That doesn't allow for many interesting stories for other characters.
It's even sillier because Khorne actually invaded Terra with massive legion in early M42 but somehow didn't use his trump card...
xerxeskingofking wrote: to be fair, the Tzeentchian types getting played is a reoccouring theme of Tzeentch. part of his "plans within plans" schtick. Tzeentch is always playing his pawns against his other pawns, because he finds it fun and is hopelessly addicted to scheming, so schemes against himself.
Well yes, but this mostly applies when he is scheming against himself. Or some mortal race. Doing so in crucial moment of great game against the other powers of Chaos is much less likely (and it's not like he didn't have excuse to intervene personally seeing just Khorne did).
Segersgia wrote: I really think that there are interesting ways of having Angron's immortality create an interesting narrative.
If factions realise that killing him isn't an option anymore, they might look for ways that neutralize hime without banishing him.
Like how? Talk to him and send flowers & chocolate?-)
Stasis, Capture, imprisonment, redirection, meddling by the other gods, doing a Kryptman, a psychic ritual... maybe something related to the other factions, perhaps. It's not going to be easy, that is for sure.
Speaking seriously, they probably do need to kill him with melee combat for it to stick. That's what Khorne respects. Orbital bombardment of Angron? Cowardice that should not be rewarded with victory.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Speaking seriously, they probably do need to kill him with melee combat for it to stick. That's what Khorne respects. Orbital bombardment of Angron? Cowardice that should not be rewarded with victory.
If Khorne doth not care from whence the blood flows, he shouldn't be so picky about orbital bombardments.
After all, it isn't like we're talking magick, or Slaaneshi debauchery here...
NinthMusketeer wrote: Speaking seriously, they probably do need to kill him with melee combat for it to stick. That's what Khorne respects. Orbital bombardment of Angron? Cowardice that should not be rewarded with victory.
If Khorne doth not care from whence the blood flows, he shouldn't be so picky about orbital bombardments.
After all, it isn't like we're talking magick, or Slaaneshi debauchery here...
Khorne certainly cares about the means by which blood flows, besides I don't think incineration is the best way to shed blood, exactly...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Boosykes wrote: Only beauty can tame the beast. The Johnson will be along shortly to handle his business.
Khorne doesn't seem to care from whence the blood flows when it comes to the offerings to him, though he does seem to care how it flows, such as if they are through "in your face" bloodshed as opposed to abstract push button killing such as long range space combat.
Khorne may view certain forms of fighting or sorcery as "cheating" by weaklings, but if his follower succumbs then it's their own fault for being weak too. There is for example in the original Realms of Chaos book a Khorne Champion that is hit with a Death Head of Nurgle (aka Blight grenade). The Champion pleads (in vain) for Khorne to save him from an ignoble death from disease and rot. So Khorne takes a "blame the victim" mentality. He might look down on the enemy for resorting to unworthy ways of killing, but it's his own follower's fault for falling to weaklings, making them weak too.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Khorne certainly cares about the means by which blood flows, besides I don't think incineration is the best way to shed blood, exactly...
Isn't Khorne's credo "Kill Maim BURN"? You'd think he would like incineration given that last part...
Ordered mine 23rd, got shipping confirmation this afternoon. Had already booked tomorrow off work (im so up to date I’ve sod all to do, but my case load is maxxed), so Mando, Bad Batch, Abababababanadon.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Ordered mine 23rd, got shipping confirmation this afternoon. Had already booked tomorrow off work (im so up to date I’ve sod all to do, but my case load is maxxed), so Mando, Bad Batch, Abababababanadon.
I am impressed at how well Abaddon is written, as much like Angron, we get insight into his thought processes - such as only ever wishing to deal with Daemons and Gods on his own terms, giving them as little as possible in return.
He’s surprisingly human, and not moustache-twirling.
The battles also written interestingly, as neither side is just ROFLstomping the other.
It contains an interesting tidbit: apparently, Vashtorr made a deal with an AI to be able to predict the Rock's movements. Said AI is connected to 'a clueless Inquisitor of the Ordo Astartes' like a footnote in the article says. This may or may not be related to the Dark Angels' small stockpile of lobotomized AI battle robots from the Dark Age of Technology...
Posted this in another thread, but perhaps it's more appropriate here.
We know Cypher was trying his hardest to get into the Golden Throne room.
We're pretty sure that Cypher has the Lion Sword.
We do not know Cypher's intensions.
Speculation: Might Cypher have been trying to, perhaps even tasked with, taking the Lion Sword to the Emperor as proof that The Lion has been found, is alive and needs the Emperor's help?
oni wrote: Posted this in another thread, but perhaps it's more appropriate here.
We know Cypher was trying his hardest to get into the Golden Throne room.
We're pretty sure that Cypher has the Lion Sword.
We do not know Cypher's intensions.
Speculation: Might Cypher have been trying to, perhaps even tasked with, taking the Lion Sword to the Emperor as proof that The Lion has been found, is alive and needs the Emperor's help?
I was under the impression the lore piece that revealed the Lion was on the Rock was written with the explicit statement that the emperor did in fact know this, and just wasn't willing or able to communicate this?
so, games workshops open day reveals include the fact that the 4th arks of omen book is "arks: Farsight", and is based on a bad moons vs farsight enclave battle.
Puretide’s protege is now piloting a bleeding-edge XV-86 Supernova battlesuit, designed specifically to suit his needs by O’Vesa, the Earth Caste scientist who fights by his side as one of the Eight – Farsight’s hand-picked crew of companions. Though similar to the XV-8 Crisis suit, this hot rod sports greatly enhanced command and control suites, all guided by a fancy on-board AI – dubbed Supernova
The infamous Bad Moons warlord Nazdreg, master of tellyporta taktiks, has taken up the reins of the War of Dakka – a never-ending conflict fuelled by the Orks’ desire to beat the Farsight Enclaves at their own shooting game.
Strange visions draw O’Shovah back to the ominous world of Arthas Moloch, and just as he seems to be ready to vanquish the Orks once and for all, disaster strikes. It wouldn’t be an Arks of Omen book without an Ark or two showing up, after all…
As with all Arks of Omen books, Farsight contains additional rules for playing Boarding Actions, adding Enhancements and Stratagems for the T’au Empire, Asuryani and Ynnari, Drukhari, Harlequins, and Adepta Sororitas.
intresting the explicit mention of the AI on his suit......
given the reference to arks, im assuming that one of the eldar factions might be involved in this as a side force.
xerxeskingofking wrote: so, games workshops open day reveals include the fact that the 4th arks of omen book is "arks: Farsight", and is based on a bad moons vs farsight enclave battle.
Puretide’s protege is now piloting a bleeding-edge XV-86 Supernova battlesuit, designed specifically to suit his needs by O’Vesa, the Earth Caste scientist who fights by his side as one of the Eight – Farsight’s hand-picked crew of companions. Though similar to the XV-8 Crisis suit, this hot rod sports greatly enhanced command and control suites, all guided by a fancy on-board AI – dubbed Supernova
The infamous Bad Moons warlord Nazdreg, master of tellyporta taktiks, has taken up the reins of the War of Dakka – a never-ending conflict fuelled by the Orks’ desire to beat the Farsight Enclaves at their own shooting game.
Strange visions draw O’Shovah back to the ominous world of Arthas Moloch, and just as he seems to be ready to vanquish the Orks once and for all, disaster strikes. It wouldn’t be an Arks of Omen book without an Ark or two showing up, after all…
intresting the explicit mention of the AI on his suit......
If i'm allowed to go Paranoid for a moment:
- The AI is called 'Supernova', which is of course the name for an exploding star
- We have a Tarot card called 'The Star' with text that talks about a newborn star
- As the ever-observant Matrindur points out, Farsight's suit has some sort of 'chip' in it:
- This chip prominently displays a sigil that looks a lot like the Dark Angel Hexagrammaton:
- The Hexagrammaton are the 'Six Wings' of the Dark Angels in the Heresy era
- One of these wings is the 'Iron Wing'
- In the Heresy, this Iron Wing included the fearsome Excindio Class Battle Automata, which were in fact lobotomized Men Of Iron war machines: sentient AIs
https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Ironwing#Excindio-Class_Battle-Automata - These automata, even in their much-reduced and lobotomized state, are considered so dangerous that they were only released into battle under close observation, fitted with explosive failsafes and furnished with only the bare minimum reactor charge and ammunition that they needed to finish their missions, for fear of them breaking free
- Vashtorr is also said to have made a deal with an Astartes-related AI that allowed him to locate the Rock
- What the AI gained from this is currently unknown
- There is at least one Man of Iron currently at large in the Galaxy, last seen on the Blackstone Fortress of the game of the same name, his current location and goals are unknown
All of this is very much beginning to look like too much of a coincidence to be random chance - it begins to look like there's a conspiration afoot to release the cybernetic terrors of Old Night on an unaware galaxy!
Seems like great logical thinking to me. Can see it being a bit less complicated when GW reveals whatever it is but you have put together the hints in a logical way that fits the background especially the use of AI in the story thus far...exciting times.
ListenToMeWarriors wrote: Seems like great logical thinking to me. Can see it being a bit less complicated when GW reveals whatever it is but you have put together the hints in a logical way that fits the background especially the use of AI in the story thus far...exciting times.
It's probably just the Talisman of Arthas Moloch relic, but from time to time i like a good yarn
The idea of the rock being destroyed is an interesting one but I doubt it, it’s been a core bit of lore since day 1. Plus whatever they want is on the rock so they don’t want to destroy it.
Unless the rock is destroyed and then out of the warp appears the rock from another point in time full of friendly fallen to save the day
mrFickle wrote: The idea of the rock being destroyed is an interesting one but I doubt it, it’s been a core bit of lore since day 1. Plus whatever they want is on the rock so they don’t want to destroy it.
Unless the rock is destroyed and then out of the warp appears the rock from another point in time full of friendly fallen to save the day
Blasting the rock into smaller, but still rock-y chunks could be a way to handwave Dark Angels appearing in a lot of battles simultaneously in 10th edition.
Basically the meme 'I acquire: one victory over the Rock / You acquire: a fleet of Space-Hulk-sized rock-lites'
Also, i could see a darkly comedic result from that, with the DA being big on keeping secrets and all: it's not like that many outside folks have seen The Rock or have accurate information about its dimensions and capabilities, so in the future the DA could easily pretend that every single one of these sub-rocks is 'The Rock' and nurture a reputation for being in many places at once etc., which of course would be pretty handy to ge fallen-hunting off the record or sweep sightings of the fallen under the Rock, eh, rug. Basically they would just not tell anyone the Rock was destroyed, and go on acting like nothing happened.
The third instalment of Arks of Omen zeroes in on the siege of the Rock, as Vastorr searches for a powerful component in his diabolical goal. The Dark Angels aren’t taking this invasion lightly, and rally their forces as a mysterious third party enters the slaughter.
The third instalment of Arks of Omen zeroes in on the siege of the Rock, as Vastorr searches for a powerful component in his diabolical goal. The Dark Angels aren’t taking this invasion lightly, and rally their forces as a mysterious third party enters the slaughter.
Wonder who or what that might be.
Based on the intepretation of the last couple of Tarot cards, it's probably Starro the conqueror.
The third instalment of Arks of Omen zeroes in on the siege of the Rock, as Vastorr searches for a powerful component in his diabolical goal. The Dark Angels aren’t taking this invasion lightly, and rally their forces as a mysterious third party enters the slaughter.
Wonder who or what that might be.
my money is on the necrons, purely based on the list of other boarding action factions with rules in this set (Chaos Daemons, Necrons, Tyranids, Genestealer Cults, the Death Guard, and the Adeptus Mechanicus).
that, or the Fallen themselves come out to play......
I mean, it COULD still be the Lion, but im honestly of the opinion if they were waking him up, we would have seen the model by now. I wasn't active in the hobby over G mans wakeup, how did that play out? was that a blindside suprise that was revealed in the lore then a model, or was the model showcased and then the novels disribed his return?
The third instalment of Arks of Omen zeroes in on the siege of the Rock, as Vastorr searches for a powerful component in his diabolical goal. The Dark Angels aren’t taking this invasion lightly, and rally their forces as a mysterious third party enters the slaughter.
Wonder who or what that might be.
my money is on the necrons, purely based on the list of other boarding action factions with rules in this set (Chaos Daemons, Necrons, Tyranids, Genestealer Cults, the Death Guard, and the Adeptus Mechanicus).
that, or the Fallen themselves come out to play......
I mean, it COULD still be the Lion, but im honestly of the opinion if they were waking him up, we would have seen the model by now. I wasn't active in the hobby over G mans wakeup, how did that play out? was that a blindside suprise that was revealed in the lore then a model, or was the model showcased and then the novels disribed his return?
IIRC we knew a lot of the Guilliman and Primaris stuff from tie-in novels before his rules and model showed up, but i may be wrong.
Concerning the topic: i wonder what the '6th book' that's gonna be serialized in White Dwarf is going to be - and if it gets Tarot Cards as well. One outside/curveball option i could see is that AoO V is about something else, and then the Lion shows up on the conclusion of 'book' VI, which would be almost at Warhammer Fest...
The fourth card for this book is daemon inversed, and its description involves infighting. I’m betting Vashtorr is going to get backstabbed by one of his allies, like the rogue AI he’s teamed up with, or the Fallen could be a foil in his plan, seeing as they are allied with chaos.
Segersgia wrote: The fourth card for this book is daemon inversed, and its description involves infighting. I’m betting Vashtorr is going to get backstabbed by one of his allies, like the rogue AI he’s teamed up with, or the Fallen could be a foil in his plan, seeing as they are allied with chaos.
That's one interpretation, but it could also just mean that Vashtorr is the one that does the backstabbing, for example by retreating once he has gained whatever it is that he's after, and thus leaving Abaddon and his greater schemes to fend for themselves. In this case, Vashtorr would represent the self-defeating nature of chaos, even though he wins his personal battle.
Do we know who the member of the Ordo Astartes is?
Presumably someone investigating the Dark Angels / Fallen and all their secrets.
There have not been a lot of named Ordo Astartes members so far - Lexicanum knows four - and it might be a completely new one, but if they reuse one they already namedropped my money is on Ardeus Teth:
Ardeus Teth is an Ordo Astartes Inquisitor, who wonders what kind of secrets and artefacts the Space Marine Chapters must keep within their hidden vaults and libraries. He has gone so far as to say he would sacrifice a dozen worlds for just a glimpse of such treasures and a hundred to own them.
Sounds like the sort of dude who could be tricked into making deals with a Daemon.
The 3rd party could be anyone as it looks like many factions are getting a new HQ minimum to launch their boarding actions boxed set. Big rock in space with a mysterious machine in the middle, could easily be the Vottan. Or maybe the tuchululucha machine attracts tyranids.
Or Luther
I have a feeling that Vashtorr will succeed in taking what ever he needs from the rock as it seems to be an important part of the middle of the story, in fact I expect that the arks of omen story will result in Abbadon getting all the things he’s looking for, winning more territory but failing to achieve his ultimate goal of taking over the imperium of man. And vashtorr will have a foothold in real space setting up a release of a new faction in a few years for 10th ed
I have a feeling that Vashtorr will succeed in taking what ever he needs from the rock as it seems to be an important part of the middle of the story, in fact I expect that the arks of omen story will result in Abbadon getting all the things he’s looking for, winning more territory but failing to achieve his ultimate goal of taking over the imperium of man. And vashtorr will have a foothold in real space setting up a release of a new faction in a few years for 10th ed
I mainly think that Vashtorr will be the one doing the backstabbing because he's described as an entity you can't trust, that's always out for his own profit, makes deals where he somehow always ends up on the side that gets the upper hand and so on. All of that is being told at the moment, and none of it has yet been shown. Of course there is room for stories in which characters like that get bested at their own game, or tricked by a greater trickster etc., but for that to have any weight and impact you first need to establish that that is an uncommon occurence. The 'Fall of the master conspirator' trope is only dramatic and cool if it's a once-in-a-lifetime event, not when it happens during the literal first appearance of the character. So i think that this particular story will end in success for Vashtorrr, possibly to the detriment of the larger war effort.
mrFickle wrote: The 3rd party could be anyone as it looks like many factions are getting a new HQ minimum to launch their boarding actions boxed set. Big rock in space with a mysterious machine in the middle, could easily be the Vottan. Or maybe the tuchululucha machine attracts tyranids.
Or Luther
I have a feeling that Vashtorr will succeed in taking what ever he needs from the rock as it seems to be an important part of the middle of the story, in fact I expect that the arks of omen story will result in Abbadon getting all the things he’s looking for, winning more territory but failing to achieve his ultimate goal of taking over the imperium of man. And vashtorr will have a foothold in real space setting up a release of a new faction in a few years for 10th ed
I dunno. AoO Abaddon makes it clear that whilst there are certain Precious Geegaws that Vashtorr needs, less important ones he has work-around a for. Like a Daemonic Bodge Job.
I’d say the main danger of Vashtorr as an ally is how specific his wording is. So you’ll get exactly what was agreed, and not a bean more. Anything you missed off the initial bargain would be a new bargain - and that I suspect is when Vashtorr applies his leverage.
I have a feeling that Vashtorr will succeed in taking what ever he needs from the rock as it seems to be an important part of the middle of the story, in fact I expect that the arks of omen story will result in Abbadon getting all the things he’s looking for, winning more territory but failing to achieve his ultimate goal of taking over the imperium of man. And vashtorr will have a foothold in real space setting up a release of a new faction in a few years for 10th ed
I mainly think that Vashtorr will be the one doing the backstabbing because he's described as an entity you can't trust, that's always out for his own profit, makes deals where he somehow always ends up on the side that gets the upper hand and so on. All of that is being told at the moment, and none of it has yet been shown. Of course there is room for stories in which characters like that get bested at their own game, or tricked by a greater trickster etc., but for that to have any weight and impact you first need to establish that that is an uncommon occurence. The 'Fall of the master conspirator' trope is only dramatic and cool if it's a once-in-a-lifetime event, not when it happens during the literal first appearance of the character. So i think that this particular story will end in success for Vashtorrr, possibly to the detriment of the larger war effort.
You are correct, that’s what annoys me about the alpha legion arc in the HH, they always seems to get out smarted by the loyalists despite being the masters of duplicity.
AoO Angron also shows Vashtorr isn’t above using Massive Distractions to get what he needs.
The whole Choral Engine was a red herring in itself. Angron wanted to destroy it because it was a mind scorching source of Witchery. But it wasn’t what Vashtorr himself was after. That he got after the planet was shattered.
What remains to be seen is should Vashtorr fail. And the item be an Essential Part? What does he do then. Where does that leave his pact with Abaddon? And will it matter? So far as we can tell, the agreement is Abaddon helps Vashtorr obtain the gubbins, and Vashtorr provides the Arks of Omen, significantly increasing Abaddon’s Naval assets.
Automatically Appended Next Post: In fact, I’m gonna change that.
The Lion, whilst fully healed? Remains in Stasis.
I’m willing to bet whatever Vashtorr needs is part of whatever technogubbins is keeping that Stasis going.
This might explain why Vashtorr is leading the attack himself (itself?). Because if Abaddon got wind the action might return a pretty bloody dangerous foe to the Imperial fold, he’d pull out of the contract and damn the consequences.
Remember, the main reason Abaddon’s plan kind of stalled post Cadia was Guilliman’s return.
Yes Cawl had the Primaris Project ready to go - but he couldn’t exactly reveal it and simply claim “Guilliman said I could” without Guilliman there to ratify his claim, and indeed to some degree overrule others.
Granted so far as we know the Lion has no such secret project, or ever really had the opportunity. But equally, he never agreed to the Codex being implemented. And being in Imperium Nihilus, if he wished to regain Legion Strength? Who the heck is going to stop him doing so? Plus we know The Rock is stacked full of Forbidden Goodies, which only a Primarch has the authority to deploy. So that’s another problem for Abaddon should The Lion return unexpectedly.
I could even argue Abaddon doesn’t even know The Lion isn’t in fact long dead.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As for the latest Tarot?
Could The Rock possess an Astronomicon type beacon? New star, new light in the Imperium Nihilus.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Or it’s less literal. The light is The Lion, a new hope in the Imperium Nihilus given his abilities and sheer clout.
Men of Iron and AI sound intriguing? But I thought machines wiping out all life would be bad for chaos? Maybe good for Vashtoor, bad for everyone else?
Here's to hoping for some Chaos vs Chaos backstabbery. (I don't know about you all but I enjoy the internal conflicts within each faction as the the most interesting stories). Yes, even Ork vs Ork can be wonderful reading.
On Farsight? Bit of clarification from Warhammer Community today.
Fate struck again when Farsight found himself on a dead world named Arthas Moloch. Here he was attacked by mysterious red-skinned aliens never before seen by the Empire. The expedition’s attendant Ethereals were slain by these bloodthirsty creatures, who appeared seemingly from nowhere, and only the discovery of a strange talisman and conveniently battlesuit-sized sword allowed Farsight to close the portal disgorging the attackers.
Strikes me the Hexagrammatic Talisman is the talisman mentioned - and so not a new development.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:On Farsight? Bit of clarification from Warhammer Community today.
Fate struck again when Farsight found himself on a dead world named Arthas Moloch. Here he was attacked by mysterious red-skinned aliens never before seen by the Empire. The expedition’s attendant Ethereals were slain by these bloodthirsty creatures, who appeared seemingly from nowhere, and only the discovery of a strange talisman and conveniently battlesuit-sized sword allowed Farsight to close the portal disgorging the attackers.
Strikes me the Hexagrammatic Talisman is the talisman mentioned - and so not a new development.
Well, as i said:
Tsagualsa wrote:It's probably just the Talisman of Arthas Moloch relic, but from time to time i like a good yarn
That being said, all that stuff about Arthas Moloch may still be who-knows-what after all: Arthas Moloch is pre-imperial, there's not records of it being visited during the great crusade, and the Talismans were found 'hanging around the necks of mysterious, faceless statues' in a 'temple' where the Dawnblade was stored. So it may or may not be related to pretty much anything, really, but anti-warp talismans, faceless statues and blades that utilize strange chronomancy to prolong the wearers life are all hinting towards necrons.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Well, the Hexagrammatic thing came from somewhere, and isn’t necessarily unique to Caliban or The Dark Angels.
Could be the Dawnblade is indeed a Daemon or Cursed Weapon. The statues and talismans forming a cage to secure it from Warp denizens.
The newer fluff for the Dawnblade mentions that it works with 'chronophagic alloy', not via souls or warpcraft like other 'souldrinker'-type weapons. That could of course just be what the demonweapon wants you to think, but imho that's techno-sorcery, not vanilla sorcery.
But anyway, the Dawnblade has been a surprising number of things, back in the day it was heavily hinted to be of eldar origin, but that got retconned as well. So who knows, another soft-retcon may always be in the cards. Don't want to steer the thread too far off topic, we can and will probably revisit this once the Farsight book comes out.
Plant wrote: Looks like the third party is Belakor.
SHOCK upon the ROCK! Just when Azrael was going to be counted out, the watchers open up a side entrance, and OH MY GOD! you're not gonna believe this, it's Belakor, with the FOLDING CHAIR! Oooooh, that's gonna hurt!
Automatically Appended Next Post: The first reviews for AoO: Vashtorr are going up, here is one from Guerilla Miniature Games:
The first ~5 minutes are about the background, so beware of spoilers. The bit about how Vashtorr got to interrogate the AI - which is, in fact, from the Dark Age of Technology - is pretty cool*
*
Spoiler:
It was Alpha Legionnaires that infiltrated various chapter, with the long-con plan to all get assigned to the same Deatwatch watch-fortress and then nicking it.
So the more this goes on the more I think the prophecy from the first book is from the perspective of luther.
Spoiler: vashtorr failes to get the last piece but he thinks he know how to get the piece to come to him.
luther and cypher know the rock better than anyone so one of them could stand a chance of getting on and off the rock again with thier lives and the key. And of the two luther is know for being a Prophet
Boosykes wrote: So the more this goes on the more I think the prophecy from the first book is from the perspective of luther.
Spoiler: vashtorr failes to get the last piece but he thinks he know how to get the piece to come to him.
luther and cypher know the rock better than anyone so one of them could stand a chance of getting on and off the rock again with thier lives and the key. And of the two luther is know for being a Prophet
Vashtorr is apparently using his triple-agents to lure the Dark Angels to the Somnium system, hoping that they bring the Key fragment with them. This makes me guess that the fragment is some piece of wargear they'd reasonably take with them, probably one of their special swords or something. Isn't there a sword made from a prehistoric meteor or something in the DA armoury?
Also, the Somnium system is where 'an army of the Fallen of hitherto unknown size' is said to be rallying in the DA codex, so the plot thickens.
Boosykes wrote: So the more this goes on the more I think the prophecy from the first book is from the perspective of luther.
Spoiler: vashtorr failes to get the last piece but he thinks he know how to get the piece to come to him.
luther and cypher know the rock better than anyone so one of them could stand a chance of getting on and off the rock again with thier lives and the key. And of the two luther is know for being a Prophet
Vashtorr is apparently using his triple-agents to lure the Dark Angels to the Somnium system, hoping that they bring the Key fragment with them. This makes me guess that the fragment is some piece of wargear they'd reasonably take with them, probably one of their special swords or something. Isn't there a sword made from a prehistoric meteor or something in the DA armoury?
Also, the Somnium system is where 'an army of the Fallen of hitherto unknown size' is said to be rallying in the DA codex, so the plot thickens.
This sounds really cool to be honest. Thanks for this tidbit. A big throw down between marbass and the fallen vs dark angels but this time luther save the lion maybe at the cost of his life. Sounds interesting.
On the tabletop, the Lion is the consummate swordsman, balancing raw power and preternatural skill, scything through humanity’s foes like wheat. Those lucky few who live long enough to return a blow are met with a bone-crunching wave of force, as the fury of the Emperor Himself resounds from his shield.
Calling it now: in the fight between the Lion and Angron, Angron will try to Khorne-Blast the Lion like he did with that MacGuffin in his own book, but the Shield of the Emperor will throw the attack back at him and that is what banishes him for good - for now.
So far, it’s really solid! As with the previous outings it’s written largely from a non-Imperium POV, which remains refreshing. Particularly its description of the advantages of being Vashtorr whilst in the warp, such as not being tied to linear time.
I hope the Lion doesn't win against Angron 1v1. I want him to lose. It doesn't make sense for him to win against Angron 1 on 1 even though Angron can't think for himself. It's better if he wins the grand battle but loses 1 on 1 against Angron.
One doesn’t simply lose against Angron. You get all ded and chop and squelched and mooshed and turned into hideous splutchy pancakes by Angron.
Is it lazy writing when Lion inevitably wins? Yeah. Kind of.
But Angron isn’t just completely pants on head hatstand wibble-dibble Dennis Norden insane…..but also an arena fighter.
Lion is a very different foe. Lion chinned Russ, arguably Angron’s superior in terms of mass combat. So despite Angron’s many daemonic advantages, I’m not expecting a Deus Ex reason as to why Lion comes out on top.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: So despite Angron’s many daemonic advantages, I’m not expecting a Deus Ex reason as to why Lion comes out on top.
The last couple of Heresy books also really hammered it in that becoming a Demon Prince is not a straight upgrade for a Primarch, but a best a sidegrade, and in many aspects actually lessens them as beings and powers, because instead of the fined-tuned whatever it is that the Emperor made them they're now a bog-standard Slave to Darkness and suffer at least as many vulnerabilities and limitations as they gain raw power.
Angron will lose for the simple reason that he can be banished and come back, whereas if Lion loses he's dead. That lack of suspense in these kind of match ups is why I am not that keen about the return of another Primarch. Don't want 40K to turn into just Primarch vs. Primarch inconclusive superhero/supervillain drama. Also it removes suspense if any conflict involves a Primarch on one side but a non-Primarch on the other, and the Primarch is guaranteed a win.
I would find it more refreshing if somehow a Primarch were actually defeated by a non-Primarch, and how they would have to cope with that blow to their self-esteem afterwards or the loss of faith of their followers.
I would find it more refreshing if somehow a Primarch were actually defeated by a non-Primarch, and how they would have to cope with that blow to their self-esteem afterwards or the loss of faith of their followers.
That sounds like a plot that's a natural fit for Fulgrim, with the only downside being that it kinda happened already with Rylanor and all that... for comedy potential have him beaten by Cato Sicarius.
I would find it more refreshing if somehow a Primarch were actually defeated by a non-Primarch, and how they would have to cope with that blow to their self-esteem afterwards or the loss of faith of their followers.
That sounds like a plot that's a natural fit for Fulgrim, with the only downside being that it kinda happened already with Rylanor and all that... for comedy potential have him beaten by Cato Sicarius.
I don't necessarily mean being beaten in a duel, though that could work as well. It could also mean being outmaneuvered and losing strategically. The Primarch might find that he has won a battle but lost the wider war for example.
Iracundus wrote: Angron will lose for the simple reason that he can be banished and come back, whereas if Lion loses he's dead. That lack of suspense in these kind of match ups is why I am not that keen about the return of another Primarch. Don't want 40K to turn into just Primarch vs. Primarch inconclusive superhero/supervillain drama. Also it removes suspense if any conflict involves a Primarch on one side but a non-Primarch on the other, and the Primarch is guaranteed a win.
I would find it more refreshing if somehow a Primarch were actually defeated by a non-Primarch, and how they would have to cope with that blow to their self-esteem afterwards or the loss of faith of their followers.
I’ll have to disagree.
As stupidly hard to kill as Lion and Roboute are? They know from the deaths of Ferrus and Sanguinius that they are in fact mortal and vulnerable.
The Daemon Prince Primarchs now know that whilst banishment sucks, it’s not the end. That has to affect your strategy. If you know you’re fundamentally immortal, you may take risks a mortal can’t. And in doing so, over expose yourself to risk.
This next bit is genuinely open to question as I’m not aware if it’s been addressed during the HH Novels……but.
Has Angron ever scrapped with an actual equal? Ever since he was found and had The Butcher’s Nails installed, he’s never fought someone of at least broadly similar stature. Certainly none since he became part Daemon.
I’m envisaging a potential (but not exact) Hulk Vs Thanos, where the angry brawler driven by rage and having never really tried fighting a vague equal gets their stools pushed in by a calm minded strategic fighter. Think a grapple and Kung fu master.
Angron has fought Russ during the Crusade during the Night of the Wolf. Russ and Angron fought alongside their Legions and Angron bested his brother in single combat but the VIth were able to surround and corral the XIIth into small pockets, able to be wiped out at a word from Russ. The point was to prove that Angron's blind rage was going to get him killed, Russ just didn't bank on the fact that it was Angrons intent to die.
Angron also fought Guilliman during the Shadow Crusade on Nuceria and they beat each other bloody until Lorgar's ritual forced Angron's ascension to Daemonhood.
After becoming a Daemon, Angron fought Perturabo and was smacked about enough to become lucid for a bit.
He then fought Sanguinius at the Siege of Terra and it is an exceptional part of End of Eternity.
Gert wrote: Angron has fought Russ during the Crusade during the Night of the Wolf. Russ and Angron fought alongside their Legions and Angron bested his brother in single combat but the VIth were able to surround and corral the XIIth into small pockets, able to be wiped out at a word from Russ. The point was to prove that Angron's blind rage was going to get him killed, Russ just didn't bank on the fact that it was Angrons intent to die.
Angron also fought Guilliman during the Shadow Crusade on Nuceria and they beat each other bloody until Lorgar's ritual forced Angron's ascension to Daemonhood.
After becoming a Daemon, Angron fought Perturabo and was smacked about enough to become lucid for a bit.
He then fought Sanguinius at the Siege of Terra and it is an exceptional part of End of Eternity.
If anything, Demon-Angron in the HH books suffers a bit of Worf syndrome everytime he meets an equal - it usually close fights, but the other party beats him to show how determined, tactically superior or whatever they are in the end.
The last couple of Heresy books also really hammered it in that becoming a Demon Prince is not a straight upgrade for a Primarch, but a best a sidegrade, and in many aspects actually lessens them as beings and powers, because instead of the fined-tuned whatever it is that the Emperor made them they're now a bog-standard Slave to Darkness and suffer at least as many vulnerabilities and limitations as they gain raw power.
Which is honestly bs. It first started off with retconing CSM not being more powerful than loyalist SM and now becoming a Daemon Prince doesn't give you a power up? No wonder why people keep ranting that Chaos are just Saturday morning cartoon villains. My POV is that the writers have taken Chaos too literal, you join Chaos you become Chaotic, unable to think coherently. While Hell in other franchises is badass, 40K villains are "I'll be back Spiderman". While 40K might have been a mess in it's starting point (Rouge Trader era) there were far more interesting stories and concepts that later got retconed. This change they've made to Chaos has also made them no longer the biggest threat in the galaxy since they're Lovecraftian, instead the Tyranids have taken that place.
The last couple of Heresy books also really hammered it in that becoming a Demon Prince is not a straight upgrade for a Primarch, but a best a sidegrade, and in many aspects actually lessens them as beings and powers, because instead of the fined-tuned whatever it is that the Emperor made them they're now a bog-standard Slave to Darkness and suffer at least as many vulnerabilities and limitations as they gain raw power.
Which is honestly bs. It first started off with retconing CSM not being more powerful than loyalist SM and now becoming a Daemon Prince doesn't give you a power up? No wonder why people keep ranting that Chaos are just Saturday morning cartoon villains. My POV is that the writers have taken Chaos too literal, you join Chaos you become Chaotic, unable to think coherently. While Hell in other franchises is badass, 40K villains are "I'll be back Spiderman". While 40K might have been a mess in it's starting point (Rouge Trader era) there were far more interesting stories and concepts that later got retconed. This change they've made to Chaos has also made them no longer the biggest threat in the galaxy since they're Lovecraftian, instead the Tyranids have taken that place.
It's more like once you go full Demon, you just become another pawn in the great game, and that basically amounts to you never achieving anything lasting ever again, because not even the gods can or really want to win it, and everytime you do something of note and make some progress, either one of the other gods or their pawns come at you to punish you for it. It's an eternal bucket of crabs where you can't have nice things anymore. The great delusion of Slaves to Darkness™ lies in that they assume that they, themselves, are somehow above it all, or could be the ones to actually use Chaos for their own end without getting tainted or dragged down into the bucket, but precisely that hybris is the first step on the road to your downfall. It was the folly of Horus, it was the folly of Magnus, it was the folly of Perturabo and it is the folly of Abaddon, Ahriman and all the other leader figures on the chaotic side.
Vashtorr needs ways better stats before he can consider himself a god.
On the topic of the power of daemon princes, there is actually a story where a daemon prince (I think a Khorne one) failed a mission and was reduced to a Chaos Spawn as a punishment. A parallel example, though where the character is not a daemon, is the character of Eternus in Age of Sigmar, who was given great power by Be'lakor and who is constantly working to please his master so that he is not stripped of his power.
- Starts out with T'au vs. Orks; T'au are winning, but at heavy losses
- Farsight comes under attack from a Weirdboy and has terrifying visions of himself as a champion of Khorne as a consequence, which reminded him of Arthas Moloch
- After beating the Orks back, they uncover plans for a ork superweapon, the 'Tellyfragger', that's been moved back to Nazdregs fallback world, Dreg-Ork
- Farsight sallied forth to stop the Orks from completing that
- He and the Eight battle farsight atop his Technodrome-like tellyporting Battlestation Gitcrusha
- They succeeded and detonated the Battlestations warp core
- All this is observed by a Deathwatch team that is itself infiltrated by Alpha Legion agents of Vasthorr
- Conveniently, Dreg-Ork is in the same system as Arthas Moloch
- All of this turns out to be a convoluted plot to get at the key fragment on Arthas Moloch - a three-way ground war between the T'au, the Orks and the newly arrived balefleet of Ugalax the Souleater soon breaks out
- Farsight sends missive to the Ethereals and offers his surrender if they send reinforcements; over the protracted fighting some of his Eight are slain as they progressively get encircled by Chaos and fight a loosing guerilla war
- A messenger from the T'au empire appears and tells Farsight that he can go feth himself
- Farsight's desperate plan is to draw both Orks and Chaos forces to the old temple and then release the ancient demons trapped there to destroy the lot of them
- Just as his forces prepare for the final retreat to their evacuation zone and the enemy forces close in, they discover a wrecked, millenia-old craft bearing the markings of the Dark Angels
- The craft is covered in a dark and pulsating crystal mass
- As the T'au pathfinders report this, the Alpha Legion strike: that craft or the crystalline mass is the key fragment they were looking for
- The overpower the loyal Deathwatch, swoop in and nick the crystals, and make straight for the warp and Vashtorr
- Farsight kills enough Orks and Chaos forces to summon the Molokite demons of Khorne
- He himself is temporarily overcome by bloodlust and rage, but manages to meditate out of it by remembering that he is an Anime superhero and aided by his MacGuffin talisman
- The Orks again turn the tide of the battle by spiritbombing the Demons, the Chaos forces and the temple to rubble with Waaagh energy channeled by the surviving weirdboys while the T'au evacuate
- After all this the formerly dead world of Arthas Moloch now shows 'anomalous lifesigns'
This concludes this episode of Warhammerball Z
That seems convoluted, and them literally stumbling about the central plot device is a bit lame.
As said, happy to see Chaos POV story telling. I’m particularly amused Be’lakor only interfered to be a phallus, and wind Vashtorr up.
Crucially, it’s now possible for Vashtorr’s plan to fail. Whatever it is on The Rock is a vital piece of this key he’s trying to make. He does have backup plans of course, and is putting them into gear. No doubt that will be covered off in The Lion.
Will be picking up Farsight next Saturday, and reading it that day.
I'm seeing speculation going the rounds now implying that the artefacts are pieces of Caliban. If the entirety of the Arks of Omen is just a plot device to bring the Lion back, I'm going to be very dissapointed.
Games Workshop sometimes cannot make the setting not be about the Space marines to save their lives. It is like Blizzard not being able to make a bad guy who isn't the servant of an even badder guy.
That final bit mentioning life returning on Arthas Moloch is kind of funny and I know it is intentional. It is one first glance a rather positive spin on events, yet what this probably means is that Arthas Moloch is now infested with Ork spores.
Segersgia wrote: I'm seeing speculation going the rounds now implying that the artefacts are pieces of Caliban. If the entirety of the Arks of Omen is just a plot device to bring the Lion back, I'm going to be very dissapointed.
Games Workshop sometimes cannot make the setting not be about the Space marines to save their lives. It is like Blizzard not being able to make a bad guy who isn't the servant of an even badder guy.
That final bit mentioning life returning on Arthas Moloch is kind of funny and I know it is intentional. It is one first glance a rather positive spin on events, yet what this probably means is that Arthas Moloch is now infested with Ork spores.
The thing about life is doubtful, since Farsight himself seems to find it anomalous, and goes investigating it, and he should be intimately familiar with the ork lifecycle after decades of mainly battling them on their own planets.
As for the contrivances around the key: it might have something to do with that trinity of artifacts that blew up Caliban in the first place, they are very weird and presumably also very powerful.
Segersgia wrote: I'm seeing speculation going the rounds now implying that the artefacts are pieces of Caliban. If the entirety of the Arks of Omen is just a plot device to bring the Lion back, I'm going to be very dissapointed.
Games Workshop sometimes cannot make the setting not be about the Space marines to save their lives. It is like Blizzard not being able to make a bad guy who isn't the servant of an even badder guy.
That final bit mentioning life returning on Arthas Moloch is kind of funny and I know it is intentional. It is one first glance a rather positive spin on events, yet what this probably means is that Arthas Moloch is now infested with Ork spores.
Considering the first book Dante came across a destroyed fleet/space hulk that seemed to have been destroyed by someone with a big sword, Book 3 has Vahtorr talking about "The Dreamer" (who in the first book was dreaming about the events of Arks of Omen) being that mysterious figure who's destroying his space hulks and has a reason more than anyone to stop him, a significant part of the series has focused on the Dark Angels with it building up to a confrontation involving them in the last book as well, it seems the key fragments are to do with the Dark Angels and this whole thing has been centered around collecting those fragments...
Yeah, it looks like pretty much whole point of this has been to bring back the Lion.
Tsagualsa wrote: Apparently the epilogue of the Lion book heavily, heavily hints at an Inquisition codex Excellent news.
So that means we're going to get the Lion vs the Inquisition and possibly the Ecclesiarchy?
Not necessarily against them, but apparently the series of warp-related shenanigans that went down in the AoO saga were observed by Lord-Inquisitor Coteaz, who in said epilogue orders his inquisitorial assets all over the Imperium to 'awaken' and 'step out of the shadows' to engage these warp-spawned threats. All it needs is some omnious theme music and a fade to black
The last couple of Heresy books also really hammered it in that becoming a Demon Prince is not a straight upgrade for a Primarch, but a best a sidegrade, and in many aspects actually lessens them as beings and powers, because instead of the fined-tuned whatever it is that the Emperor made them they're now a bog-standard Slave to Darkness and suffer at least as many vulnerabilities and limitations as they gain raw power.
Which is honestly bs. It first started off with retconing CSM not being more powerful than loyalist SM and now becoming a Daemon Prince doesn't give you a power up? No wonder why people keep ranting that Chaos are just Saturday morning cartoon villains. My POV is that the writers have taken Chaos too literal, you join Chaos you become Chaotic, unable to think coherently. While Hell in other franchises is badass, 40K villains are "I'll be back Spiderman". While 40K might have been a mess in it's starting point (Rouge Trader era) there were far more interesting stories and concepts that later got retconed. This change they've made to Chaos has also made them no longer the biggest threat in the galaxy since they're Lovecraftian, instead the Tyranids have taken that place.
TBF Chaos wasn't really very Lovecraftian in the beginning, it was Moorcockian, with its themes of eternal struggle, cosmic conflict, and multiverse-spanning battles. The early depictions of Chaos were more focused on the concept of chaos as a force of change and disruption, rather than the eldritch horror and cosmic insignificance that Lovecraftian horror embodies.
Genestealer cults were always more reminiscent of Call of Cthulu to me, with their infiltration and manipulation of societies. Chaos is about breaking free from the constraints of order and embracing unpredictability and change. It is a rejection of traditional norms and rules, and an embrace of individuality and self-determination. The allure of Chaos lies in its promise of freedom from the shackles of conformity, and the potential for unfettered power and transformation. The descent into anarchy and nihilism that usually follows, is the real horror, a much more human horror.
I do agree that Chaos has often been reduced to cartoon villains in modern fluff though.
He starts off in the Weird Forest Realm alluded to in the teasers, with no real memory at first. But it all starts coming back to him.
It seems the doing of The Watchers In The Dark though.
It’s a pretty spiffy novel, definitely leaning into Arthurian archetypes, and not being as lazy as King Arthur In Spaaaaaaaace.
He has changed though. Not just aged physically, but…I want to say matured. He’s not as dour as he once was, considering his previous actions flawed, if well intentioned.
I’m nearly done reading it, and it’s been ages since I demolished a book in a day.
Mysteries remain, but not in an unsatisfying way. YMMV of course!
He starts off in the Weird Forest Realm alluded to in the teasers, with no real memory at first. But it all starts coming back to him.
It seems the doing of The Watchers In The Dark though.
It’s a pretty spiffy novel, definitely leaning into Arthurian archetypes, and not being as lazy as King Arthur In Spaaaaaaaace.
He has changed though. Not just aged physically, but…I want to say matured. He’s not as dour as he once was, considering his previous actions flawed, if well intentioned.
I’m nearly done reading it, and it’s been ages since I demolished a book in a day.
Mysteries remain, but not in an unsatisfying way. YMMV of course!
Extremely spoilerific for The Lion: Son of the Forest and probably other 40k books (Cypher: Lord of the Fallen, Bequin: Pariah, perhaps others)
Spoiler:
They're laying it on pretty thick with the Fisher King character:
The Fisher King is a figure in Arthurian legend, the last in a long line of British kings tasked with guarding the Holy Grail. The Fisher King is both the protector and physical embodiment of his lands, but a wound renders him infertile and his kingdom barren.[1] Unable to walk or ride a horse, he is sometimes depicted as spending his time fishing while he awaits a "chosen one" who can heal him. Versions of the story vary widely, but the Fisher King is typically depicted as being wounded in the groin, legs, or thigh. The healing of these wounds always depends upon the completion of a hero-knight's task.
Most versions of the story contain the Holy Grail and the Lance of Longinus as plot elements. In some versions, a third character is introduced; this individual, unlike the hero-knight archetype, is ignorant of the King's power, but has the ability to save the king and land, or to doom it. Variations of this third party give us divergent legends.
Well. Nazdreg may be dead. And Farsight has a near-Khorne experience, but honestly? That’s about it. No bug revelations.
Arthas Moloch may have been cleansed though. Farsight set off the Daemon Portal deliberately to enable his forces to withdraw. But the Wurrboyz destroy the portal, and with it the Great Star Dais.
Farsight returns to the surface in the Epilogue, only to find the corpses and wrecked equipment in an advanced state of decay - and green shoots growing. The description of the decay doesn’t strike me as Nurglesque either.
Right. On with The Lion!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Finished The Lion.
Oh my!
Spoiler:
Against my predictions, Vashtorr and Abaddon pulled it off! The Key is assembled. And we now know what The Key is.
It’s…it’s a Reality Drill. Kind of. Basically it’s a Daemon World able to drill into the Webway. A relic of the Old Ones reassembled, granting Abaddon and Vashtorr a whole new suite of options.
However…their plan can still be foiled. For The Key is not the whole of the thing. It fits a specific lock - but even Vashtorr is unsure where that lock lies.
The epilogue is intriguing, as we meet Inquisitor Coteaz as he sees a report on what happened. As he speculates….why didn’t the Eldar intercede? He turned away their offer of help previously, but it’s not like the Eldar to just take that as an end to the matter.
Indeed, the Eldar as a whole are conspicuous in their overall absence in this unfurling narrative. There’s mention of piratical fleets taking advantage of the chaos and destruction, but precious little about the Craftworlds and Seers.
Arks of Omen may have now concluded…but this doesn’t feel like an end to things.
I just read in arks of omen: the lion, that they go to vashtorrs lair and it’s caliban. But the rock is the remains of caliban after a severe orbital hammering.
So is this caliban taken from another reality or time, or had vashtorr made a facsimile of caliban and if so why? Just to annoy the dark angels? And how did azreal recognise it?
mrFickle wrote: I just read in arks of omen: the lion, that they go to vashtorrs lair and it’s caliban. But the rock is the remains of caliban after a severe orbital hammering.
So is this caliban taken from another reality or time, or had vashtorr made a facsimile of caliban and if so why? Just to annoy the dark angels? And how did azreal recognise it?
It's the real Caliban - the story so far is that there are/have been three old (as in vastly pre-imperial old, pre-humanity old, possibly contemporary or even older than the Old Ones old) entities that play a role in that particular story: the Tuchulcha, which is sentient and was used by the Lion and the DAs during the Heresy, the Plagueheart, and the Ouroborous, which was imprisoned on Caliban. During recent events it was discovered that due to the Actions of some people (Astelan and Typhus among them) that involved combining these Artefacts, the Dark Angels have a serious case of timey-wimey stuff on their hands: their attempt to use the Artefacts to change the past and prevent the destruction of Caliban is what caused the destruction in the first place - Azrael and Ezekiel resolved that in the most Speeehs Mehreeen way possible and destroyed the time-warp-rift, thus sealing Caliban's fate for now, but the psychic resonance of all this warp-fuckery is probably how they recognize the revenant planet.
Caliban broke into a load of chunks. The Rock was the largest that was then repurposed into a new mobile Fortress Monastery for the Dark Angels. Vashtorr found other chunks of Caliban and rebuilt the planet.
Remember when it comes to Chaos rituals, having something with an intense emotional anchor is a huge boon.
Gert wrote: Caliban broke into a load of chunks. The Rock was the largest that was then repurposed into a new mobile Fortress Monastery for the Dark Angels. Vashtorr found other chunks of Caliban and rebuilt the planet.
Remember when it comes to Chaos rituals, having something with an intense emotional anchor is a huge boon.
The planet was also scattered through time and space, not just the dudes that happened to be on its surface.
In terms of the outcome here, with The Lion redeeming wayward sons, I’m in two minds.
On the one hand, I really do like it. Son of the Forest demonstrate that whilst Caliban did fire first, not all those planetside were aware of Luther’s treachery. They genuinely believed the Fleet fired first, and that The Lion had either turned traitor himself, or their seeming exile had all along been part of a plan to exterminate certain elements. Some are of course genuine Traitors. But far from all.
On the other? We don’t get to see the main Chapter’s full reaction. Which is a shame, and I feel mildly cheated by that.
Heck, it wasn't even Luther that gave the order to fire either it was Astelan. In fact, Astelan and Zahariel caused a load more problems than Luther did.
Zuvassin, an even lesser known minor deity from back when, recently had a cameo appearance in the boxed game Silver Tower and a novel as well. Necoho remains AWOL, just like it would have liked it 
