What the title says: now with the return of the Lion, the big question is which one of the Emperor's boys will arrive next on the scene - will it be one of the currently missing Russ, Dorn etc., will we see an unlikely return from the dead for one of the previously slain ones, or will it be something even more unlikely, like a redemption arc for a traitor, the unveiling of an hitherto hidden clone or stranger things still?
1. Is Ferrus not dead, like dead dead?
2. Is Vulkan not dead, like dead dead
Spoiler:
after the Great Green basically disolved his ability to reincarnate - at least that is what I remember from Beast Saga so could be wrong because it was a bad series with some exceptions
?
3. There is no Alpharius/Omegon on the list What I would want would be nr 3 from above especially after reading his excellent novella by Mike Brooks. What I bet will happen is Russ as he would offer some opposition to both Lion and Roboute way of thinking, and he is a father of a most unique and probably also most popular non codex Chapter.
Shadow Walker wrote: 1. Is Ferrus not dead, like dead dead?
2. Is Vulkan not dead, like dead dead
Spoiler:
after the Great Green basically disolved his ability to reincarnate - at least that is what I remember from Beast Saga so could be wrong because it was a bad series with some exceptions
?
3. There is no Alpharius/Omegon on the list What I would want would be nr 3 from above especially after reading his excellent novella by Mike Brooks. What I bet will happen is Russ as he would offer some opposition to both Lion and Roboute way of thinking, and he is a father of a most unique and probably also most popular non codex Chapter.
I included the currently dead ones anyway because let's face it, if they want them to return a way will be found...
Not really keen for more Primarchs but if it had to be done...Russ.
Then for Russ to effectively turn rebel against Lion and Guilliman, not Chaos but just rebelling against what the Imperium has become and in doing so clash with Lion El'Jonson. Then have the Lion's vendetta against Russ become more and more the focus of his efforts and Guilliman despairing of the two spending their time fighting each other more than focusing on the other threats. There it justifies large scale Imperial vs Imperial armies as different regiments, Chapters etc... pick sides. That way things are kept dark and more Primarchs don't mean suddenly the Imperium is all happy and saved.
Iracundus wrote: Not really keen for more Primarchs but if it had to be done...Russ.
Then for Russ to effectively turn rebel against Lion and Guilliman, not Chaos but just rebelling against what the Imperium has become and in doing so clash with Lion El'Jonson. Then have the Lion's vendetta against Russ become more and more the focus of his efforts and Guilliman despairing of the two spending their time fighting each other more than focusing on the other threats. There it justifies large scale Imperial vs Imperial armies as different regiments, Chapters etc... pick sides. That way things are kept dark and more Primarchs don't mean suddenly the Imperium is all happy and saved.
I could see a scenario with 'old man Russ' returnig, making up with the Lion, both coming to the conclusion that 'what can be destroyed by the truth deserves to be' and going after the Inquisition specifically. We seem to be gearing towards a 'High Lords vs. Primarchs' setting anyway, would fit in perfectly.
Iracundus wrote: Not really keen for more Primarchs but if it had to be done...Russ.
Then for Russ to effectively turn rebel against Lion and Guilliman, not Chaos but just rebelling against what the Imperium has become and in doing so clash with Lion El'Jonson. Then have the Lion's vendetta against Russ become more and more the focus of his efforts and Guilliman despairing of the two spending their time fighting each other more than focusing on the other threats. There it justifies large scale Imperial vs Imperial armies as different regiments, Chapters etc... pick sides. That way things are kept dark and more Primarchs don't mean suddenly the Imperium is all happy and saved.
I could see a scenario with 'old man Russ' returnig, making up with the Lion, both coming to the conclusion that 'what can be destroyed by the truth deserves to be' and going after the Inquisition specifically. We seem to be gearing towards a 'High Lords vs. Primarchs' setting anyway, would fit in perfectly.
Nah, that would be no suspense because I cannot see any High Lords winning against 1 let alone multiple Primarchs, as they have already lost against Guilliman, who has already purged those that opposed him. That was in one of the novels where basically Guilliman had a counter to their efforts and everything worked "just as planned".
Russ might take such a stance. I could see Lion opposing due to personal vendetta and also because his secretiveness means he is not opposed to the Imperium being kept ignorant of all but the barest necessity. Guilliman would be the pragmatic one in the middle facepalming or having his head in his heads while the other two spend their time smashing each other.
Iracundus wrote: Not really keen for more Primarchs but if it had to be done...Russ.
Then for Russ to effectively turn rebel against Lion and Guilliman, not Chaos but just rebelling against what the Imperium has become and in doing so clash with Lion El'Jonson. Then have the Lion's vendetta against Russ become more and more the focus of his efforts and Guilliman despairing of the two spending their time fighting each other more than focusing on the other threats. There it justifies large scale Imperial vs Imperial armies as different regiments, Chapters etc... pick sides. That way things are kept dark and more Primarchs don't mean suddenly the Imperium is all happy and saved.
I could see a scenario with 'old man Russ' returnig, making up with the Lion, both coming to the conclusion that 'what can be destroyed by the truth deserves to be' and going after the Inquisition specifically. We seem to be gearing towards a 'High Lords vs. Primarchs' setting anyway, would fit in perfectly.
Nah, that would be no suspense because I cannot see any High Lords winning against 1 let alone multiple Primarchs, as they have already lost against Guilliman, who has already purged those that opposed him.
Certainly not vs. a Primarch spank in the middle of Terra. A Primarch half a galaxy away, behind a rift that conveniently allows for almost no communication? That's a different cup of tea.
Iracundus wrote: Not really keen for more Primarchs but if it had to be done...Russ.
Then for Russ to effectively turn rebel against Lion and Guilliman, not Chaos but just rebelling against what the Imperium has become and in doing so clash with Lion El'Jonson. Then have the Lion's vendetta against Russ become more and more the focus of his efforts and Guilliman despairing of the two spending their time fighting each other more than focusing on the other threats. There it justifies large scale Imperial vs Imperial armies as different regiments, Chapters etc... pick sides. That way things are kept dark and more Primarchs don't mean suddenly the Imperium is all happy and saved.
I could see a scenario with 'old man Russ' returnig, making up with the Lion, both coming to the conclusion that 'what can be destroyed by the truth deserves to be' and going after the Inquisition specifically. We seem to be gearing towards a 'High Lords vs. Primarchs' setting anyway, would fit in perfectly.
Nah, that would be no suspense because I cannot see any High Lords winning against 1 let alone multiple Primarchs, as they have already lost against Guilliman, who has already purged those that opposed him.
Certainly not vs. a Primarch spank in the middle of Terra. A Primarch half a galaxy away, behind a rift that conveniently allows for almost no communication? That's a different cup of tea.
Still no, because the High Lords lost against Guilliman after he left Terra. He had foreseen everything and left plans in place that all worked perfectly. That was 1 Primarch who was not even physically present. The lopsidedness of such a match up would be a total joke and boring as a story, because right now as written by GW, nobody beats a Primarch in anything whether direct combat or plotting intrigue except another Primarch.
Sure it would be nice if non-Primarch characters defeated Primarchs in things. But so far GW has not really set that precedent and without adequate setup, I could see a wailing and gnashing of teeth from any losing Primarch's fanbase.
I'm guessing Russ - but not for awhile. If EC and Fulgrim come out late in 10th, then I wouldn't expect Russ to arrive till the end 11th - probably early to mid 2029.
Asmodai wrote: I'm guessing Russ - but not for awhile. If EC and Fulgrim come out late in 10th, then I wouldn't expect Russ to arrive till the end 11th - probably early to mid 2029.
Yep. Fulgrim then a bunch of dithering before Russ happens, where like the Lion, everyone knows he's coming for years but its still a 'mystery.' (though I could do with endless dithering on SCs).
But yes, the big four chapters remain so. Russ is next, with maybe a delay for the-Sanguinor-isn't-Sanguinius-but spirit incarnation nonsense, in some sort of big non-event.
Sanguinius is heavily rumored in the new BA book to basically either be the Sanguinor, or to be body puppeting Mephiston. I'm guessing his "spirit" or something dumb comes back in 10th, and Sacrifices itself to stop Leviathan. Mephy goes to. And Dante is left without a friend for the next 10k years.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Sanguinius is heavily rumored in the new BA book to basically either be the Sanguinor, or to be body puppeting Mephiston. I'm guessing his "spirit" or something dumb comes back in 10th, and Sacrifices itself to stop Leviathan. Mephy goes to. And Dante is left without a friend for the next 10k years.
Heavy spoilers for a couple of HH and 40k novels:
Spoiler:
Sanguinius is not the Sanguinor, it's some dude from the HH that fused with one of two pre-imperial Warp Spirits from Baal to rescue Sanguinius from a trap laid by an Uber-Demon. Mephiston is not being body-puppeted, but acts as the prison for the other half of that duo, which nets him even more emo points and Dragonball-Z-like superpowers in the bargain.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Sanguinius is heavily rumored in the new BA book to basically either be the Sanguinor, or to be body puppeting Mephiston. I'm guessing his "spirit" or something dumb comes back in 10th, and Sacrifices itself to stop Leviathan. Mephy goes to. And Dante is left without a friend for the next 10k years.
Heavy spoilers for a couple of HH and 40k novels:
Spoiler:
Sanguinius is not the Sanguinor, it's some dude from the HH that fused with one of two pre-imperial Warp Spirits from Baal to rescue Sanguinius from a trap laid by an Uber-Demon. Mephiston is not being body-puppeted, but acts as the prison for the other half of that duo, which nets him even more emo points and Dragonball-Z-like superpowers in the bargain.
Citation? Because the book all but comes out and holds up a banner, saying it. Not to mention the teasing of it in DoB. Dante's dreams and all.I'm not quoting it as fact, but I'm saying the writers have been HEAVILY implying it.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Sanguinius is heavily rumored in the new BA book to basically either be the Sanguinor, or to be body puppeting Mephiston. I'm guessing his "spirit" or something dumb comes back in 10th, and Sacrifices itself to stop Leviathan. Mephy goes to. And Dante is left without a friend for the next 10k years.
Heavy spoilers for a couple of HH and 40k novels:
Spoiler:
Sanguinius is not the Sanguinor, it's some dude from the HH that fused with one of two pre-imperial Warp Spirits from Baal to rescue Sanguinius from a trap laid by an Uber-Demon. Mephiston is not being body-puppeted, but acts as the prison for the other half of that duo, which nets him even more emo points and Dragonball-Z-like superpowers in the bargain.
Citation? Because the book all but comes out and holds up a banner, saying it. Not to mention the teasing of it in DoB. Dante's dreams and all.I'm not quoting it as fact, but I'm saying the writers have been HEAVILY implying it.
About the Sanguinor:
Spoiler:
https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Sanguinor#Origins it states the sources. Madail is some sort of Uber-Demon the Davinites had unleashed to tempt Sanguinis to Chaos and kill him if that failed, who tried to trap Sanguinius in a warp rift once his first plot did not work.
The stuff about Mephiston is in 'Darkness in the Blood'.
That being said, it is not out of the question that they simply retcon it, or involve a spirit/echo/revenant of Sanguinius in addition to all that convoluted stuff, or do a quasi-retcon like '10k years of veneration empowered the Sanguinor and made him like Sanguinius' or whatever.
There is still only the one Loyalist Primarch. the Traitors now have 4 released for 40k.
That said, I would strongly suspect it would be for a chapter that is both not currently 'that' popular, and is also one that has lots of unique units, so I would bet on Leman Russ being the second Loyalist to return. to fuel the sale of the wolfy wolf wolf space wolf wolves.
Iracundus wrote: Not really keen for more Primarchs but if it had to be done...Russ.
Then for Russ to effectively turn rebel against Lion and Guilliman, not Chaos but just rebelling against what the Imperium has become and in doing so clash with Lion El'Jonson. Then have the Lion's vendetta against Russ become more and more the focus of his efforts and Guilliman despairing of the two spending their time fighting each other more than focusing on the other threats. There it justifies large scale Imperial vs Imperial armies as different regiments, Chapters etc... pick sides. That way things are kept dark and more Primarchs don't mean suddenly the Imperium is all happy and saved.
Ya your on the right track with this then the lion hunts down russ and they duel and the lion casually destroys him in a condescending fashion.
Valrak says Russ is next? Nah, next primarch will be the Khan (I saw the road map, trust me).
The Khan has been chilling with the Warp Spider Phoenix Lord under like a staircase in the Webways. It was totally a "Just one hit, and then I gotta go" situation (Go watch the movie PCU). And then 10000 years go by and the Khan bursts back into reality in a puff of smoke (literally) and is like "Sh!t *cough* *cough*, What’s going on guys??"
And then the Eldar players will get new Warp Spider models or something.
I imagine money will be the deciding factor in this opinion, but do we need any more primarchs coming back? I feel like four traitor primarchs and two loyalist primarchs is a comfortable number. This isn't the Horus Heresy game!
It is probably going to be Lemman, because his model is done. But who knows, GW had some models ready at the start of 8th, and they sat out the entire edition to drop in 9th.
I love Kahn and Corax but I don't think they have the player base to warrant a return.
Sanguinius and Manus should stay dead.
Dorn could be interesting if he took over the Custodes, but has no real fun draw.
Vulcan is possible, but unlikely. The Salamanders are still banged up from the Heresy? Really? No known successors?
SamusDrake wrote: Okay, I may or may not work for GW, or merely shine shoes, but...
Spoiler:
Leman Russ will return in "The Lion, The Wolf and The Warmaster", an 11th edition supplement slated for a holiday release in 2027.
No, no, no, I have it on good authority he will be released
Spoiler:
next year during the "Blomahaus" campaign when the Iron Warrior daemon princes of the "Trinary Py'Gees" set up their fortresses near Fenris in the Blomahaus system. Russ then arrives from the warp and helps his sons destroy their fortresses using a relic known as "The Breath of Russ".
What about the idea of stealing one from the other team? Now that Papa E is a literal god, he can "forgive" Magnus (Pardon him from his sins, think catholic) and offer to bring him back to into the fold. This could also be done with Morty, as was hinted at the end of the book, where the emperor beats him up and essentially says, I'll welcome you back when you are ready.
I am not saying this is at all likely, but I'd much rather a redeemed primarch arch.
Dorn could be interesting if he took over the Custodes, but has no real fun draw.
And how could he do this? Custodes could be his allies if they judged his cause worthy of their support but would never be his subordinates in a way of SM.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: What about the idea of stealing one from the other team? Now that Papa E is a literal god, he can "forgive" Magnus (Pardon him from his sins, think catholic) and offer to bring him back to into the fold. This could also be done with Morty, as was hinted at the end of the book, where the emperor beats him up and essentially says, I'll welcome you back when you are ready.
I am not saying this is at all likely, but I'd much rather a redeemed primarch arch.
You take one, you give one:
Dorn returns but it's actually Omegon, the only ones to get wise to the trick are the Black Templars that see the truth in religious visions they receive with increasing frequency.
Ferrus returns as some sort of Saint/Avatar/Demon Prince of the Emperor, leading the Legion of the Damned.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: What about the idea of stealing one from the other team? Now that Papa E is a literal god, he can "forgive" Magnus (Pardon him from his sins, think catholic) and offer to bring him back to into the fold. This could also be done with Morty, as was hinted at the end of the book, where the emperor beats him up and essentially says, I'll welcome you back when you are ready.
I am not saying this is at all likely, but I'd much rather a redeemed primarch arch.
The Emps gave Magnus a chance at redemption.
Spoiler:
Big E offered the Grey Knights in place of Magnus' already damned sons. Magnus refuses and takes umbridge and fighting in the Throne room fully encompasses the power of Chaos.
I dont think Daemon Magnus is on the xmas card list.
What would Daemon Morty even be able to offer? He had totally turned to Chaos by the time of the SoT. Still proud and arrogant and hurt. Morty wouldn't take the Emps hand even if he could.
Could be anything really, atho judging from CSM, they favor factions with a history of having a miniatures range.
Since Sanguinus is canon-dead, i'd say Leman Russ next, but not before 11th or 12th.
Blood Angels will get a Sanguinor-who-is-totally-not-Sanguinius update as a diorama character in the vein of the Craftworld' Avatar. Since Blood Angels are most likely due for an update in 10th, it might happen sooner rather than later.
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: His skeletal hand is hanging out in the Phalanx, not his whole body, thats MIA.
Before we have that derail again: it used to be his whole skeleton, but that got retconned to the majority of his body being missing, with just a hand that was found.
They should bring back Russ but super fethed up and mutated because of his time in the warp. Like, still human and loyal, but weird enough that you could plausibly accuse him of being a daemon primarch if you happened to dislike him. The whole primarchs vs. conservatives thing they've got going on right now for the Imperium's internal strife can be compelling but the primarchs definitely need a major political embarrassment to put them on the back foot and mutated Russ could be just that.
This would have the added bonus of making it so Russ can be huge and have stats rivaling Magnus, obviously.
Lets be clear: What would GW make the most money off of? Sanduinius would be the sexiest model in years, cost a ton, and would cause the Blood fans to go ape.
Russ would be cool, if he came out like, a lupegarue. Or a wierd 40k version of Marchosias, the creator of Werewolves.
Vulkan could come back as the token black power ranger, but then sales would likely suffer. Nope, Sang would make the most money, hands down.
Fulgrim will be next followed by Ferrus as a dreadnaught using his severed head found in fulgrims trophy room. Nothing more iron-hands than going full blown dreadnaught, a primarch size dread would be epic.
Arachnofiend wrote: They should bring back Russ but super fethed up and mutated because of his time in the warp. Like, still human and loyal, but weird enough that you could plausibly accuse him of being a daemon primarch if you happened to dislike him. The whole primarchs vs. conservatives thing they've got going on right now for the Imperium's internal strife can be compelling but the primarchs definitely need a major political embarrassment to put them on the back foot and mutated Russ could be just that.
This would have the added bonus of making it so Russ can be huge and have stats rivaling Magnus, obviously.
Basically a hill giant sized Wolfen. I could go for that, a bit kinder to the character than my wolf-chaos-spawn idea but still something more interesting than Russ popping out of a porthole unchanged after 10,000 years.
I like the Iron Hands dread for the same reason. Let's see that something has changed in 10k years!
Kid_Kyoto wrote: Well Dorn is currently a skeleton hanging in the Fists battle barge so I would say yes.
You're thinking of the ejactorial extravaganza of Ian Watson's "Space Marine".
Well of course! I only acknowledge canon sources, not retcons.
And come on, scrimshawed skeleton Dorn animated by psychic voodoo and sheer will would be an awesome character as he ejaculates white hot death into the faces of his foes.
Again, the Class of 30k reunion should have more changes than Liono grew a beard and Bobby Williams has a new GF.
If they did bring back Ferrus, I suspect it would be as part of a revamp and re-release of the Legion of the Damned, as per master of mankind cameo, rather than as the iron hand primarch per se.
locarno24 wrote: If they did bring back Ferrus, I suspect it would be as part of a revamp and re-release of the Legion of the Damned, as per master of mankind cameo, rather than as the iron hand primarch per se.
This would track considering that Iron Hands never seem to get the special characters or chapter masters they have been asking for; their primarch returns but he's in charge of a whole different legion.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Lets be clear: What would GW make the most money off of? Sanduinius would be the sexiest model in years, cost a ton, and would cause the Blood fans to go ape.
Russ would be cool, if he came out like, a lupegarue. Or a wierd 40k version of Marchosias, the creator of Werewolves.
Vulkan could come back as the token black power ranger, but then sales would likely suffer. Nope, Sang would make the most money, hands down.
I’m curious why you think Vulkan would lose money. Also, why you have so much faith in them sculpting Sanguinius. His forge world 30k sculpt is average at best so it’s not like it’s a slam dunk. Plus how stupid would it be to just undo one of the most important deaths in the setting?
Asmodai wrote: I'm guessing Russ - but not for awhile. If EC and Fulgrim come out late in 10th, then I wouldn't expect Russ to arrive till the end 11th - probably early to mid 2029.
I think its a loyalist first. Chaos have been one up ever since they started returning -
I mean of the original Legionnes, you have the Main Four in Ultras, Blangels, Dangels and Woofs.
Sanguinius is still suffering a rather nasty case of deth, and Russ is the last one MIA.
They'll do Russ first just to buy more time/stall on doing Sanguinius. My money is still on some sort of Black Rage coalescence thing after the Seige of Ball spontaneously generating a new Sanguinius from something - Sanguinor, chosen son, etc.
I want a Ferrus Manus clone that secretly pulls some massive victory off as the hidden commander and clears and forges a new safe passage through the Great Rift… keep him unrevealed for a few books and an entire edition… some massive Keys of Hel pay off into the 40K arc. Manus reborn with old memories but modest psyker powers too… something like that.
Or if you really want to twist things… FM clone with Shadrak’s memories.
Lobukia wrote: I want a Ferrus Manus clone that secretly pulls some massive victory off as the hidden commander and clears and forges a new safe passage through the Great Rift… keep him unrevealed for a few books and an entire edition… some massive Keys of Hel pay off into the 40K arc. Manus reborn with old memories but modest psyker powers too… something like that.
Or if you really want to twist things… FM clone with Shadrak’s memories.
And it creates a civil war within the Iron Hands and their successors because 1. It's not really Ferrus, and 2.) Ferrus didn't go off the deep end with cybernetics, so the clone might think it's also weird.
All I know is Russ's return should be like Thor's arrival in Wakanda in Avengers: Infinity War. We hear a "howl" and then a spear flying and killing a big bad guy.
There's no doubt Russ is the people's choice. But supporters of the Khan continue to represent propelling him into a 3 point lead for 2nd place ladies and gentlemen, but will he maintain it?
Why argue about "returning" primarchs, when Cawl could literally "hey Presto!" one out of thin air in keeping with the wonkyness of the current lore.
What faction would you most like to see a new TRIMARCH for? I would love it if Cawl made a new Horus. Borus. And he basically saves the floundering, poorly led, failing, indomitus crusade.
Or one of the emperor's naturally conceived sons or daughters could show up. I mean why did he really need to create primarchs in the first place if he was such a badass?
The concept of a perpetual was created by Dan Abnett in the Horus Heresy novels. Before that, immortal, regenerating from ash humans didn't exist. And it's one of Dan Abnett's lore insertions I can't stand.
However, the emperor's natural born children, the Sensei, were 'highlander immortal', as in they didn't die of old age or disease, but could still be mortally wounded. They were avowed enemies of chaos and their psychic relationship with the warp was a positive good vibes hippy type thing.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Why argue about "returning" primarchs, when Cawl could literally "hey Presto!" one out of thin air in keeping with the wonkyness of the current lore.
What faction would you most like to see a new TRIMARCH for? I would love it if Cawl made a new Horus. Borus. And he basically saves the floundering, poorly led, failing, indomitus crusade.
So could Fabius honestly. Though a chaos unit of corrupted, imperfect primachs as a super heavy infantry unit would be interesting. Giving marines in range a specific morale debuff cause for them it would be horrifying.
Adeptekon wrote: Or one of the emperor's naturally conceived sons or daughters could show up. I mean why did he really need to create primarchs in the first place if he was such a badass?
Because they were tools. A collection of perfect generals to lead Humanity to his Vision of the Future. When you want a tool, you want a perfect one rather than hope some random one will do the job.
Chaos stole his perfect tools, so he had fall back on the much less perfect tool of the Astartes to get the Great Crusade rolling. When he started finding his perfect tools, they were a not as perfect as hoped due to Third-Party manufacturing, aka raised by less perfect parents/teachers than himself. Two had to be tossed onto the dust bin early, then half rest of the damn things broke during use. Even his favorite tool blew up in his face and crippled him.
I think its a loyalist first. Chaos have been one up ever since they started returning -
This is by design. It is far easier to write in (because in the actual background the Daemon Primarchs are still sort of around, with Angron in particular being pretty active well before he got a model) and it preserves the illusion that the Imperium is on the brink of disaster if the enemy has more of the Emperor's demigod sons arrayed against them than they have with them.
The concept of a perpetual was created by Dan Abnett in the Horus Heresy novels. Before that, immortal, regenerating from ash humans didn't exist. And it's one of Dan Abnett's lore insertions I can't stand.
However, the emperor's natural born children, the Sensei, were 'highlander immortal', as in they didn't die of old age or disease, but could still be mortally wounded. They were avowed enemies of chaos and their psychic relationship with the warp was a positive good vibes hippy type thing.
They sound perfect. All he had to do was find them.
alextroy wrote:
Adeptekon wrote: Or one of the emperor's naturally conceived sons or daughters could show up. I mean why did he really need to create primarchs in the first place if he was such a badass?
Because they were tools. A collection of perfect generals to lead Humanity to his Vision of the Future. When you want a tool, you want a perfect one rather than hope some random one will do the job.
Chaos stole his perfect tools, so he had fall back on the much less perfect tool of the Astartes to get the Great Crusade rolling. When he started finding his perfect tools, they were a not as perfect as hoped due to Third-Party manufacturing, aka raised by less perfect parents/teachers than himself. Two had to be tossed onto the dust bin early, then half rest of the damn things broke during use. Even his favorite tool blew up in his face and crippled him.
See above, they were perfect, so he wasted time building primarchs and then running around looking for them when he could have just went looking for his real children.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: Why argue about "returning" primarchs, when Cawl could literally "hey Presto!" one out of thin air in keeping with the wonkyness of the current lore.
What faction would you most like to see a new TRIMARCH for? I would love it if Cawl made a new Horus. Borus. And he basically saves the floundering, poorly led, failing, indomitus crusade.
You think they don't have people working on that story? As much as they like to ripoff other genres you think they aren't doing an Emperor Reborn, or a cloned Luke Skywalker story line?
I think its a loyalist first. Chaos have been one up ever since they started returning -
This is by design. It is far easier to write in (because in the actual background the Daemon Primarchs are still sort of around, with Angron in particular being pretty active well before he got a model) and it preserves the illusion that the Imperium is on the brink of disaster if the enemy has more of the Emperor's demigod sons arrayed against them than they have with them.
Oh sure, there will always be more or equal Chaos primarchs, but if the ratio gets too far off suspension of disbelief starts to falter. I mean sure we're talking about a cyberpunk fantasy world already - but how does 1 Primarch beat 4 Primarchs? Would the Imperium have already foundered if they all worked together? Heck if Mortarion and Magnus alone had showed up in the same place at the same time, Guilliman would have lost. With the way the plot armor etc. is weighted - Guilliman's troops would have won, until the two Daemon Primarchs showed up personally - and then Guilliman has no counter to that. They can hand wave a stalemate between a 1v1 Primarch battle but not a 1v2
Fortunately, GW has well established the fact that Chaos works together horribly. They love nothing less than ruining each others plans instead of delivering a coup de grace. If two Daemon Primarchs got in a fight with Guilliman, they would beat him down and then get into a major fight over who actually gets to kill him. They would become so focused on beating each other, they wouldn't notice the party of Astartes dragging the still alive Guilliman from the battlefield.
alextroy wrote: Fortunately, GW has well established the fact that Chaos works together horribly. They love nothing less than ruining each others plans instead of delivering a coup de grace. If two Daemon Primarchs got in a fight with Guilliman, they would beat him down and then get into a major fight over who actually gets to kill him. They would become so focused on beating each other, they wouldn't notice the party of Astartes dragging the still alive Guilliman from the battlefield.
They'd still be dragging him off the battlefield meaning the field belongs to Chaos. Plus Guilliman can't be in two places at once. So even if the Chaos Primarchs just do the same thing in different places, the Imperium still loses somewhere. Calgar vs Morty was a delaying action until Guilliman could be in the second place post Indomitus.
I included the currently dead ones anyway because let's face it, if they want them to return a way will be found...
Unfortunately yes, they would find some absurd explanation to do this.
That is true and horrid at the same time as death doesn´t mean anything as a consequence. In addition Primarchs are mythical creatures from days gone by. Even bringing a single one back was an unforgiving mistake. If you peel away any mysteries and secrets a setting can offer it cheapens the experience as a whole. Let the Primarchs enjoy their retirement in one way or another.
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Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote: Ferrus’ remains crammed into a telemonn sized dreadnought filled with archaeotech would be awesome imo
Ferrus´ return would require a healthy amount of lore abuse on the level of Cawl creating a legion of Primaris marines without nobody ever noticing that. Okay, here is my take as practically anything goes when Corporate wants to make a quick buck:
Iron Hands are cyborgs, right? So therefore we lend a tech which is often available in Cyberpunk settings: A Braintape. Once a person´s brain pattern has been copied it can be implanted into a clone´s body and cloning is second nature to the folks of 40K anyway so it won´t be an issue. Who invented the Braintape tech in the first place? Well, let it stay in the family: It was a relative of Cawl of course (who else?!) serving in the Iron Hands legion back in the day as a genius Apothecary AND Iron Father.
When has the Braintape of Ferrus been acquired? Sometime before the Horus Heresy took place but the tape itself and the technology has been locked away and forgotten in one of Medusa´s vaults guarded by one of the IH clans responsible for protecting their archeotech.
Here's what I got they could just change the lore little to read:
In the commotion and trusty Iron Hand brother scooped up Ferris's head like a loose ball for the touchdown before Chaos could hem them in.
Being one of the few survivors this trusty hand told only a hand full (no pun) of his bros and kept it a secret. When their bros started self-mutilating over the loss of dad, they said screw that! (no pun) and left the chapter while biding their time preserving his head when everyone else was claiming to have a piece of him.
They just needed the right connections with some powerful Technomancy to build him back better. Ferris awakens to hear the news about how his chapter went nuts and bolts over their humanity and he vows to restore faith in the flesh and purge their insanity.
Thus begins the return of Ferrus Manus and the Civil War of the Iron Hands successors.
Adeptekon wrote: Here's what I got they could just change the lore little to read:
In the commotion and trusty Iron Hand brother scooped up Ferris's head like a loose ball for the touchdown before Chaos could hem them in.
Being one of the few survivors this trusty hand told only a hand full (no pun) of his bros and kept it a secret. When their bros started self-mutilating over the loss of dad, they said screw that! (no pun) and left the chapter while biding their time preserving his head when everyone else was claiming to have a piece of him.
They just needed the right connections with some powerful Technomancy to build him back better. Ferris awakens to hear the news about how his chapter went nuts and bolts over their humanity and he vows to restore faith in the flesh and purge their insanity.
Thus begins the return of Ferrus Manus and the Civil War of the Iron Hands successors.
Unfortunately, Ferrus' head ended up in Horus' possession, who used it like a ventriloquist puppet when he got more and more insane. It's also where Fabius got the tissue for his Ferrus-clones from... the Iron Hands just collected some random parts and tried to build a Ferrus-Zombie-Golem from it, with predictable results (it's baaaaad).
They should fully embrace all of this, and the LotD, and the Sapphire King stuff, and just have a very confused, frankenstein-like Possessed Robot Ghost of Ferrus' Clone Zombie ... of the Damned come back from the dead, seeking vengeance on the authors
They should fully embrace all of this, and the LotD, and the Sapphire King stuff, and just have a very confused, frankenstein-like Possessed Robot Ghost of Ferrus' Clone Zombie ... of the Damned come back from the dead, seeking vengeance on the authors
I mean, there's room for interesting stuff there... I'd take it in the direction that due to being the first open, clear fratricide among Primarchs for traitorous reasons* Ferrus and all that relates to him has been messed up on a metaphysical level. That would provide a reason for the fact that several parties, more or less independent of each other, tried to reanimate, clone, summon or otherwise resurrect Ferrus - it's not something they do entirely out of their free will, but some sort of warp-related effect, of destiny/reality trying to fix itself after it has been broken by the actions of the Heretics. People get 'possessed' by the idea of resurrecting Ferrus just like they get snared up in Slaaneshi vices or Tzeentchian scheming, one moment you read a footnote in some apocryphal text about the Heresy and wonder if it is possible, the next you're standing knee-deep in clone vat juice, with the Inquisition pounding at your doors, wondering where it all went wrong...
* The missing Primarchs might have been killed by one of their brothers, but more out of necessity or as a mercy killing than for selfish reasons
Arachnofiend wrote: Does the Emperor have naturally conceived children? I kinda just assumed he was as sexless as Narcissus.
I don’t believe there are any in the cannon. There used to be a story about a secret order that were locating his offspring but after 10k years most of humanity would be related to him in the same way were all supposed to be related to Gengis khan (I don’t know how to spell it)
A good story would be that he kept killing his children because they would become too power and take him down or be corrupted by chaos etc
But are there any stories of perpetual having kids?
Another good fan theory about the missing primarchs is that one of them was getting busy building an army of offspring in secret. Primarchs grow very fast.
Tsagualsa wrote:I mean, there's room for interesting stuff there... I'd take it in the direction that due to being the first open, clear fratricide among Primarchs for traitorous reasons* Ferrus and all that relates to him has been messed up on a metaphysical level. That would provide a reason for the fact that several parties, more or less independent of each other, tried to reanimate, clone, summon or otherwise resurrect Ferrus - it's not something they do entirely out of their free will, but some sort of warp-related effect, of destiny/reality trying to fix itself after it has been broken by the actions of the Heretics. People get 'possessed' by the idea of resurrecting Ferrus just like they get snared up in Slaaneshi vices or Tzeentchian scheming, one moment you read a footnote in some apocryphal text about the Heresy and wonder if it is possible, the next you're standing knee-deep in clone vat juice, with the Inquisition pounding at your doors, wondering where it all went wrong...
* The missing Primarchs might have been killed by one of their brothers, but more out of necessity or as a mercy killing than for selfish reasons
That would be a twist alright. Who's starting the topic? I'll join it.
mrFickle wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote: Does the Emperor have naturally conceived children? I kinda just assumed he was as sexless as Narcissus.
I don’t believe there are any in the cannon. There used to be a story about a secret order that were locating his offspring but after 10k years most of humanity would be related to him in the same way were all supposed to be related to Gengis khan (I don’t know how to spell it)
A good story would be that he kept killing his children because they would become too power and take him down or be corrupted by chaos etc
But are there any stories of perpetual having kids?
Another good fan theory about the missing primarchs is that one of them was getting busy building an army of offspring in secret. Primarchs grow very fast.
Sounds like the Sensei, mentioned earlier may have been perpetual, if not powerful. Seems like they got swapped out for the primarch story.
I love all the Iron Hands thoughts here... heartily endorsed
We know the Big E was
Enoch, son of Awan
Alexander III
Arthur Pendragon
St. George
probably Sargon
most likely Ramses
maybe Jesus maybe Mohammad maybe Lincoln
ALL of whom (if picking and choosing your stories, tales, legends, and sources) have kids and grandkids, but nothing beyond that.. dead ends... might be why the above have all been alluded to (or directly mentioned)
Lobukia wrote: I love all the Iron Hands thoughts here... heartily endorsed
We know the Big E was
Enoch, son of Awan
Alexander III
Arthur Pendragon
St. George
probably Sargon
most likely Ramses
maybe Jesus maybe Mohammad maybe Lincoln
ALL of whom (if picking and choosing your stories, tales, legends, and sources) have kids and grandkids, but nothing beyond that.. dead ends... might be why the above have all been alluded to (or directly mentioned)
I don't think he was Jesus, his philosophy is far more OT than NT. Though he could be somehow connected, as that would explain the reemergence of Templar/Hospitaller iconography if Jesus had a secret bloodline, with the order resurged in secret, maybe E is the holy grail himself.
I think Mohammad is unlikely and instead would offer Khosrow I 531 to 579.
Other than that I would say some other good candidates would be Hammurabi and Cyrus the Great.
We can't really conclude that the Emperor was Saint George. The account of his encounter with the Dragon is illogical and self-contradictory, is described by the person giving it as being unreliable, and multiple characters explain how similar tales are metaphorical and not literal...
Sounds like the Sensei, mentioned earlier may have been perpetual, if not powerful. Seems like they got swapped out for the primarch story.
There are hints in the more recent novels like in some of the more recent Dawn of Fire novels that the Sensei are still in the canon as an Inquisitor mentions that cult of theirs that was attacked and supposedly wiped out by another Inquisitor. He reveals that contrary to official reports they weren't all wiped out.
The Sensei are blood descendants of the Emperor but are not necessarily his direct children. Maybe it is like a recessive trait that gets passed down and only occasionally surfaces. The key thing about the Sensei is that they don't die of old age and stop aging biologically once they reach maturity. They are also immune to the emotional imbalances as epitomized by the Chaos gods, and due to being at one with the harmonious warp before it became turbulent, they are invisible to all forms of psychic scrying and perception, including that of the Emperor and Chaos gods.
The Sensei are not aware of their ancestry but at drawn instinctively to fight tyranny, injustice, and other forms of imbalance that would feed the Chaos gods. This means they often end up as opponents of the Imperium in the form of lone wandering outlaws, space pirates with hearts of gold etc...
