The grammar in this last post is laughably bad, so much so that I'm starting to doubt that these updates actually are done by a native English speaker.
Although, if it took gamezone over a year to to 'greatly improve' the fire spell card (changing the colour of a triangle from white, to the background colour), I shouldn't really expect an update post that they've only been writing for a week to actually make sense!
Some backers had conversations with lanzanos due the lack of information from the project. Lanzanos seems that now are trying to help us. We are trying to do an audit to Gamezone in order to know how the proyect goes. Gamezone is reluctant to it so it could help if a good amount of backers ask for it. Lanzanos now created a zone to put all the comments that you want to send to Gamezone and it is the compromise that GZ will read it.
From Spanish backers group
Buenas a todos.
A Lanzanos se les ha retrasado el tema del comunicado, pero aun así nos han informado de que ya tenemos habilitada la sección de contacto entre los mecenas y el creador (en la que parece ser que Lanzanos también podrá intervenir). Acaba de comenzar, así que puede dar algún problemilla. Cualquier problema comunicarselo a Lanzanos que tratará de arreglarlo lo antes posible.
La sección es privada para los mecenas, con lo que hay que ingresar en la página web para poder ver los mensajes y realizar los propios comentarios. Ingresáis y vais a la página del proyecto. Si aun así no veis la sección, presionar actualizaciones y seguro que en la página a la que os redirija la encontraréis.
Os pido por favor que insistáis en los temas que nos interesan como son la auditoria, el deseo de una fecha de entrega y cualquier otra cosa sobre la que queráis recalcar vuestro interés.
Por favor copiar y traducir el mensaje a otros foros que conozcais
Good morning everyone.
Lánzanos has been delayed them the subject of the statement, but still have informed us that we have enabled the contact section between the backers and the creator (in which it appears that Lánzanos may also intervene). Just started, so I can give some problems. Communicate to lanzanos any problems to try to fix it as soon as possible.
Login and going to the lanzanos hq25 project page. The section is private to the backers, so you have to enter on the website to see messages and make comments themselves.
I ask you please to insist on the issues that concern us such as audit, the desire for a delivery date and anything else on your interest.
Please copy & translate the message to other forums that may know
New update and actual new information for once. Whilst I wouldn't go as far as to say its our first look at the actual rules, it describes how to divide out spell cards before the start of a game. It's a little different to the original as there is obviously potential to have more magic wielding characters in this edition. But basically their solution to that issue is to simply give every character less. Whilst I like that they're drawn blind, so you can't guarantee getting a certain spell even if you get to pick your spell class first, I can't help but feel the mage will run out of spells half way through every dungeon and be a liability from there on. All of this is assuming they don't change other mechanics around it though.
I'm sure many of you will have received this as well, Seems as though Lanzanos is putting it's foot down.
This is a google translate, official translation coming soon
From Lánzanos and personally in my name, Gregorio Lopez - Triviño Barras , I apologize to ALL patrons who have pre bought the board game Heroquest 25th anniversary . We can not undo the past , but start from the present to correct the position we have taken . We intend to inform and amend our mistake , heading (if eligís so) the answer you want, as patrons who you are, to be carried out against those responsible for GameZone .
We understand the anger you must feel towards us. Lánzanos has to be a balance between patron and author of the project , so that neither abuses nor injustices are not committed, and in this case have been a shield rather to Gamezone with patrons . And we understand that is not acceptable , much less what you deserve .
I put a little background on the situation: For months we have been receiving many emails from patrons concerned about the project, which we have forwarded to GameZone requiring Dionisio that answer all, in order to answer your questions. Communication with Dionisio had been quite smooth and have always had the power personarnos invitation in his workshop to see the evolution of the project. The problem is that after 16 month delay in the delivery date and with enough information to say the least contradictory, decided not to settle the words of Dionysius and has long been asking that allows us to visit the workshop with several patrons as witnesses to clarify and structure we all parts of the game, and what actual percentage of process are at this time. All accompanied by videos and photos for patrons to see facts, and not have to travel to Seville to see what the status of your project. I hope going in the same direction, patron and Lánzanos, we can convince and pressure Gamezone to allow us to perform the analysis of the project (if you realize, do not ask delivery date, but you can check the actual status of the project and its feasibility He solicitáis many patrons us that we demand a delivery date to Gamezone but we have to do an audit to see how the project is located).
In more than 600 successful projects we have never had this problem, no delays , which have been given much, but flaws and contradictions in communication. Again we feel that you have become patrons felt helpless by Lánzanos and we will amend this error on our part . There are more than 5 years and more than 150,000 people who have supported a project with us and we have never encountered anything or fairly similar.
We hope Gamezone give relent and allow us to make a document showing how the project ( production audit ) is .
The following are steps we will next week send another email to all patrons to conduct a survey to see what steps we take and to decide together. Of course , with all expenses shall Lánzanos with them.
We are open to you send us any idea or proposal in the way that you look more successful (my personal email is gregorio.lopez@lanzanos.com and have enabled one heroquest@lanzanos.com email that among all the partners try to answer Lánzanos all messages you send us ) , in order to have as many opinions about it and take options as open as possible . We will and we will consider all feedback and suggestions that you send us .
I bid you farewell and promise to write back all next week for further progress .
Sincerely
Gregorio Lopez - Triviño Barras, responsible for Lanzanos.com
PS : We will publish esta statement in Inglés in the private forum of the HeroQuest project in Lánzanos Within the next few days
Nice to see that they appear to be concerned that this has the potential to harm their reputation and are doing something about that.
Being as Lanzanos are the ones with the money, does this mean that they get to turn up at Gamezone and tell them that they're "disappointed" with current progress?
Am I the only one that wonders if it's going to look like Vader turning up at the Death Star II at the beginning of ROTJ?
Good to see Lanzanos stepping in - this is by far the biggest project they have had on the site and it could damage their reputation if they let it go unchecked, I'd say they are sick of the complaints they are getting and they need to light a fire under Gamezone.
Gamezone have sent an update this morning - but it's the bare minimum so they can say well we are still moving forward and it hasn't addressed Lanzanos own message at all.
We are still working hard to fulfill our commitment with all HeroQuest fans, and we have new stuff to share with you in your site: heroquestclassic.com
Our last video is dedicated to our female dwarf with her explosive mace, but if it's been a while since your last visit, we invite you to check the last posts about the magic cards or our redesigns and improvements.
Gamezone no doubt sent this update in response to Lanzanos' previous mail, although I would've been very surprised if Gamezone would admit the link between the two. It is a bit too much of a coincedence that we get a Gamezone update since months, only 11ish hours after the Lanzanos mail.
I am curious as to what Lanzanos will send in the mail to us next week as, to be honest, I am getting fed up with the wait in combination of no updates nor communication.
Alpharius wrote: What reasons has Gamezone given for the long delay?
I haven't received a clear answer, and I mailed them a while ago (to be exact 18th of May 2015, this was their response then;
"Hi Low.
We do not have definite shipping date.
We understand your concern about the lack of information, but we will make every effort to send it as soon as possible.
Information on the status of the project is made public at www.heroquestclassic.com. My companions indicate pertinent information.
Sorry I can not be of more help.
Hasta pronto.
Isabel."
After this reply, the first "sign of life" from Gamezone was August 17th 2015 where we were asked to add our personalised names. After confirmation: Silence.
The only "update" they sent, was today and stated by DaveC, and, as said before, was in reaction to Lanzanos' mail earlier.
I took them up on their request for suggestions for questions to ask Gamezone. I suggest that anybody else that has backed it does the same because this seems like the first genuine opportunity for us to get answers to the questions they have ignored for the last year and a half.
What I suggested was...
1) for Gamezone to publish a full list of all the game components promised (miniature, scenery piece, card, rules, etc), listing its status as: not designed/partially designed/prototypes made/fully produced.
2) details of how the translations into other languages are being handled, as many update posts have contained very poor English, and I would find it unacceptable if the game was translated to that standard.
3) An estimated completion date, with the preface that we'd be completely understanding if they failed to achieved their target, as long as they explain the reasons for the delay. I just get the feeling their mentality is that the game will be done when its done and they're not bothered when (or if) that ever happens.
4) I also suggested that the core game (for retail and level 1 backers) should be completed, shipped and sold first if Gamezone are in need of additional funds to speed up the production process. The additional components for level 2 and 3 backers (like me), could be sent at a later stage, or ideally as an expansion sent separately.
How about a refund? That's my wish and suggestion. I never even got an opportunity to pay for shipping on their site, so my 110 euro pledge is lost somewhere on lanzanos.
Another update on the magic cards. This one shows all of the rules for the fire magic, although without any wider knowledge about how dealing damage, defence or mind points work it's kind of useless. Nice to get an idea of the concepts they're working with though.
Spoiler:
I hope the odd's of getting these 'fumbles' they talk about are very slim (like 2 on 2d6), because it seems the wizards will kill himself more often than any enemy if it comes down to a 1 in 6 chance
Movement dice can work, the problem is that normally it means d6, or multiple d6 which is extremely random and fits only a few situations.
The dice for Heroquest are icon dice, so you could have something like 4x 1's a 2x 2's. This is a whole lot less random, but adds an element of uncertainty.
icon dice movement usually works, its is great for monsters as you can never quite tell how far an orc can move, so you cant just plan to sit one square beyond range.
Lanzanos sent out an email to backers with a survey. They want to know how backers want them to proceed. The options were to get more info, wait, get refunds, or lawsuit (retribution... I'm assuming that's what they meant in spanish).
I voted refund. If this game actually sees the light of day, I can pick it up then. Otherwise this has been a big waste of money and I doubt I will ever see my game (all emails unanswered from gamezone since they took my pledge money).
Look in your spam folder if you were a backer and voice your opinion !
Last week I wrote an email about the status of Heroquest project and promised that this week we send a survey to all voters to know your opinion on that next steps will give (almost not meet forgive ) . You have been 370 people that I have responded to the first statement. The truth that thank you very much for writing and are very few emails that I have left to answer (were many , sorry for the delay)
* The email was sent to all patrons only spam filters that some patrons may not have reached him .
The survey has been quite difficult to set up , not the technical aspect , but by choosing the right questions. I really do not know if we were right but we want to know your idea about the project. So we have segregated Wait , request information, ask and Return or remuneration.
The survey will be open until Thursday and on Friday November 'll do it for you approve of my way to give much more extended ( my intention is not beating around the bush and to act quickly but are 5,000 patrons and complicated)
Instructions:
This survey is addressed to all patrons of Lánzanos in the Heroquest project, which pre bought the game on the web who buy Gamezone or support to another patron.
Only one vote per user is allowed, and the second question is your email log in Lánzanos because then pass a filter and remove the votes that do not correspond with patrons Lánzanos or we have written as a patron of the web of gamezone or repurchase .
All results will post to be as transparent as possible ( transcode your email response MD5 for data protection)
I've invited you to fill out the survey form Maecenas Heroquest - next moves. To fill it out, visit :
The second question of the survey asks for the email address you used when signing up to lanzanos so they can verify genuine backers.
Here are the options they give us:
wait : this means that prefer to wait for gamezone finish the project without intermediation or request for information
Information : You want to project information from a delivery date to a study of the real situation of the project and can lead to a voluntary audit or even a demand that this be carried out
Refund: no more want to participate in the project and you want the money back , either voluntarily or through a demand
retribution: possibly the most serious and complicated. It includes repayment , remuneration or compensation , considering the project a scam or hoax
I opted for information. Whilst I can understand some people simply wanting to cut their losses and get a refund after so long, I think the easiest way to guarantee that nobody gets their game would be if the majority of backers demand their money back or the crowd funding platform takes GZ to court. I still believe that they genuinely intend to deliver, they've just massively underestimated what is involved in making that a reality and their appalling communications have just made this ten times worse.
I still get the impression that their updates are almost like they're trying to sell the game to those that have already backed it, I just want them to be realistic an honest with their investors and state exactly where they are, what has caused the hold ups, what they're doing to resolve them and when they aim to complete (even if that date has to be moved again).
Automatically Appended Next Post: I must come back from checking my email and going through the link provided. I copy pasted everything into google translate sequentially.
The four options are logical. I hope people don't vote for Retribution as I do not think Gamezone has any intention to deceive. Refund I can understand but will kill the project. Wait will be more of the same but Information demands answers and hopefully will place enough of a fire under Dionisio to complete.
It was clear enough when translated that it came to the four options available for me to chose with confidence what I wanted to choose without being able to read any Spanish.
Translation software, even free stuff has come a long way.
Refund with the hopes to buy it later will just not happen - as in, I do not think Gamezone will sell this at retail. Once it gets releases it will most likely be a €300 direct-order boutique item.
Forgive the delay in this communication but we wanted to define clearly what steps we are going to do from today. The result (2435 replies) of the survey has been the following:
7,4 % WAIT (181 votes) This means that you prefer to wait until the end without Gamezone intermediation or request for information.
75.6% INFORMATION (1,841 votes) You want information of the project from a delivery date until a study of the actual situation of the projec
11.3% RETURN (276 votes) did not want to participate more in the project and want to return the money, either voluntarily or through a demand.
5.6% REMUNERATION (137 votes) Possibly the most serious and complicated.
According to the results, Lánzanos will support the option "Request Information". This decision is not binding in the long term, the platform will analyze the evolution of the project and as we go forward by adopting the relevant actions.
The next step will be call to Gamezone to request an audit (the content we will do public to all patrons and sent as late the day 20 of May) and to know at what point of development is the game. In the case of not agree to make such audit, we will proceed to make a complaint to Gamezone with the patrons who wish to join (the expenditure would assume Lanzanos) to force the delivery of the product or return-pay.
In conclusion, Lánzanos wants talk with Gamezone´s team, contact with us, the situation has been left to the five thousand patrons, disinformation and the delay caused should be solved as soon as possible.
Greetings to all and we expect to fix the situation as soon as possible.
--------------
To be honest, I'm pretty satisfied by this, if the poll had come out heavily on the refund / take them to court options... we might have scuttled the game totally.. at least this way, hopefully, we might get a bit of insight into how far along the game actually is... and then decide from there what to do going forward..
Thanks for posting the info here Vindicare, appreciated.
Glad it came out with that option too, I would like to hold the game in my hands at some point and it would be a shame if the whole thing were scuttled.
Definitely agree that it needs some kind of progress tracker for each component of the game, and how far along it is towards production. At the moment it paints a picture of some kind of Bohemian commune, with the odd beret-wearing sculptor coming in and doing a bit of one sculpt, before getting distracted by the abstract piece of art he's working on to represent the death of Franco.
Yep that was my desired result and at 75% it's the vast majority of backers that voted preference as well (2,426 of 5,162 backers voted 46%) so hopefully Gamezone will engage with Lanzanos and at least they are keeping further action against GZ as a possibility in case they don't get answers
If Gamezone provide all the information mentioned in that test document, as well as an estimated completion date by this time next week (20th May) I will be genuinely amazed.
Another quick rules update, this time explaining line of sight and giving an in-game example of how one of the ignis spells from the last video should work.
Well done to Lanzanos for their handling. They let the community decide, probably due to the pressure of multiple letters demanding different things.
I am very glad the community voted for INFORMATION. I did so as did some others here. It is IMHO the most logical outcome and the backing of 75% of backers means that Lanzanos has some moral weight behind them when they ask to inspect Gamezone and get straight answers from Dionisio.
English translation followed the Spanish test in the document I received, which is a welcome addition. Methinks Lanzanos should add French and German also, perhaps they do and have categorised backers by language now.
Yea they said they would wait for more information. So gamezone will post periodic useless updates about a game that was funded years ago and we will never see.
Sorry folks but we got ripped off. If Kingdom death could keep semi regular or sporadic communication, sculpt everything, and make that amazing game with an intense amount of product... it's amazing gamezone can't, with a lesser product and lesser amount of material by far.
I wonder how many vacations our money was spent on.
I dont think that is the case, Gamezone promised more than they could cope with and then kept on expending it for artistic reasons.
It isnt the only overdue project I backed, I am still waiting for one other (G&G battleboards), I have one of my board sets, not the other. I am happy to still wait.
455_PWR wrote: Yea they said they would wait for more information. So gamezone will post periodic useless updates about a game that was funded years ago and we will never see.
Sorry folks but we got ripped off. If Kingdom death could keep semi regular or sporadic communication, sculpt everything, and make that amazing game with an intense amount of product... it's amazing gamezone can't, with a lesser product and lesser amount of material by far.
I wonder how many vacations our money was spent on.
I share the sentiment, but think in this case the old adage of blaming incompetence, rather than maliciousness, holds true.
Have got Gamezone miniatures for years and they've always been great quality (one of the main reason I was so excited about the project). The website is still there and selling miniatures. I think in this sense it's just they've lacked business direction and accurate scoping of the project. The poor communications (and of course language barrier) have exacerbated matters.
I have to be honest I've just kind of forgotten about it (I just check this forum for updates every now and again - thanks again to Orlanth and others who bring news here ) if it comes, it comes.
The models look great, the rules look fun and if it ever is completed, people will enjoy it.
I think there are a ton of failures, but so far I don't think malicious deception has been at the core of it. I think unmanaged scope creep, lack of experience, language barrier and culture differences are high on the list.
455_PWR wrote: Yea they said they would wait for more information. So gamezone will post periodic useless updates about a game that was funded years ago and we will never see.
Sorry folks but we got ripped off. If Kingdom death could keep semi regular or sporadic communication, sculpt everything, and make that amazing game with an intense amount of product... it's amazing gamezone can't, with a lesser product and lesser amount of material by far.
I wonder how many vacations our money was spent on.
I dunno - how late was Kingdom Death, how much money did it make, how much did they underestimate the size and cost of the base game? Actually it seems like Kingdom Death is a great parallel to HQ25
New email from Lanzanos (Google Translate in action)
TL: DR
Gamezone have not given Lanzanos the details they requested so they are giving them 10 days to supply the information or Lanzanos will instruct their lawyers do commence legal proceedings.
Dear Patrons,
First of all apologize for the delay in write (I've talked to almost a hundred of you these days) but in between we have preferred to wait to read the burofax, legal issue that there are many different possibilities and that patrons with whom I have spoken we do not we agree that steps would be improvements to ...
In this paper I will summarize what was discussed with the attorney Lánzanos on demand Heroquest, I also include the registered fax that was sent which neither has picked up (was sent to the workshop in Seville, I have the receipt of all) and also add the experience of a patron who last week was with Dionisio in Seville to tell us your experience (I made a copy and paste without changing a comma of what has been written -Give thousand thanks for bringing his vision and good I will not go to defend Lánzanos of Dionysius says because it is nonsense)
Burofax sent Dionisio
In Toledo on May 19, 2016
Sir,
I am sending this communication in my capacity as head of Lánzanos, crowdfunding platform through which GameZone has achieved the contribution of more than 5,000 funders to Heroquest 25TH (hereinafter the Game), amounting to 680,037 € .-
Of the different conditions of use accepted both by you. As the creator of a project funded through the CROWDFUNDIG platform is that Lánzanos has to mediate disputes between the creators of the projects and funders. Being so serious the present case by the money raised and the time elapsed since the deadline for delivery of rewards, it seems quite convenient to intervene directly in order to remedy the breach committed by gamezone as creator at the earliest of the project.
The reason for this, as I 'm sure you can imagine, is the failure to deliver the rewards to which Vd. And gamezone committed, having spent more than 16 months from the date on which the rewards established should have been given to all funders.
For many months now, we have put us in touch with you. By various means in order to proceed to give a detailed and consistent reason of the actual progress of the development of the game without a date hereof, such responses have truly result enlightening and of course at any point, reassuring. The reality is that despite the time elapsed, as of the present, the rewards have not been delivered.
I must remind you that accepting the conditions of use of the platform and of course Lánzanos accepting funding from funders, Vd. Was forced to deliver the promised rewards each and every one of the financiers.
"The .Creador Project. whose project to be funded entirely within Lánzanos, contracts with the Funder, from the time of admission of the amount raised in the PayPal account or your bank account, the obligation to comply with the rewards listed in your project . Complying with the rewards under the same conditions as explained in the section .recompensas. of the projects page. While adhering to the description provided. The deadline for submission shall adhere strictly to the description of each project, never exceeding the calendar year, unless explicit and easily visible in the project description specification. "
It is obvious that in turn has proceeded to default on delivery, but also refuses to allow by Lánzanos can perform a detailed audit of the state of development of the game, in order that by Lánzanos is can give reason to funders real progress of the project.
Therefore, we require formally one last time to immediately proceed to indicate three (3.) in the next ten dates (10.) days for representatives of Lánzanos can move the workshop gamezone and can check without limitation Game development scope.
Otherwise, Lánzanos instruct his lawyers (ITLS lawyers, Jacobo Álvarez Ramallo, 669081867, jacobo@itlsabogados.com ) to proceed to initiate the corresponding legal remedies, whether civil or criminal, for the legitimate defense of their rights and interests.
Without further ado,
Sincerely
Gregorio Lopez-Triviño Fdo.- Barras
Lánzanos
My lawyer conversation with a group of patrons to see what steps to take.
Summing up the conversation the other day with some of the patrons, in relation to the position to hold against gamezone by the non - delivery of rewards, the following steps are proposed:
1. Last attempt of amicable settlement, trying to dialogue with the project creator and preferably with your legal representative if available . In any case, this latest attempt would not be obstacle to initiate legal proceedings to be decided as soon as possible.
2. There are basically two options to initiate legal action against gamezone (and / or its designees ):
2.1- A criminal action, although it should not initially qualify, you may have paints a scam. In favor of this option it is that an admission of this complaint, could consider very seriously its responsibility gamezone and meet deliveries, albeit with one and a half late. Against, in my opinion:
a.- said pressure does not have to result in delivery of rewards by GameZone.
b.- That should demonstrate an intent to mislead in this case I do not know if you attend and in my opinion, would be the main story line of defense: It is true that the rewards have not delivered, but they have done many things and not GameZone means that would mislead patrons to seize their contributions.
In any case, in this criminal action it could be required civil liability for the crime that determines, corresponding such liability in the swindled money.
2.2 A civil action -for which I Inclinometer in relation to the contract between the sponsor and the project creator, and could pretend to , among other possible claims, only two:
(i) Termination of the contract for breach of gamezone and therefore the demand for damages by the patrons and should consist of at least the return of the amounts received by gamezone
(ii) The requirement of compliance with the contract in order to deliver the committed gamezone rewards.
2.3.- must be taken into account in any case, several circumstances in relation to legal proceedings, predicable with shadings whether you opt for the civil courts as criminal proceedings:
(i) It must be borne in mind that although in the present case the breach is serious and the appropriation of money from the patrons is flagrant, court proceedings ensure no certainty or the final resolution, and of course, the respondent / defendant is solvent.
(ii) Although in my opinion, very small, there is a risk of costs. As I have already indicated, given the circumstances of the case, I see very little probability of occurrence of that risk.
3. Organization: The filing of any legal action collectively, involves taking into account a number of organizational factors are not a side issue, given the large number of stakeholders to coordinate.
While the final and definitive formula must finish defining it , the most convenient would be the establishment of an association of patrons affected by the non - delivery of the game and were aimed at bringing appropriate legal proceedings with the claims They were decided in point 2.
The Partnership would be the applicant and the decision of the Association would be made by the General Assembly in terms of majorities. The Board of Directors of the Association would be responsible for coordinating the action of the Association and contact with the legal representation of it.
For the constitution of the Association as well as for bringing the action itself would be necessary for each patron conduct a symbolic contribution (around 12 € (10 euros plus VAT) which would serve for the constitution of the Association and the beginning of the Actions.
4. Intervention Lánzanos
This would involve the intervention of Lánzanos as co-plaintiff in the action that stood and collaboration of Lánzanos to cover the costs of the judicial process.
Patron experience seeing his workshop Dionisio
SUMMARY VISIT TO gamezone A 02 JUNE 2016
Good morning everyone. While I said earlier that it was withdrawing me to give more news about HeroQuest 25th anniversary, due to the latest news from Lánzanos on more than possible demand gamezone, that shortly we send an e-mail to patrons indicating that way, times and both possibilities are contemplated as criminal civil via via, I decided with my friend Joaquin Lopez gamezone approach to, say, burn the last cartridge.
The intention of our visit was to make clear, crystal clear, the current situation in which there are a large majority of patrons doing some spokesperson Facebook want my HeroQuest 25th anniversary and make it clear that the thing is not that this black, is the vacuum deep space is more clear that the situation in which we find ourselves, not what I mean.
Well, I clarify the issue. We have come very early to shop gamezone this morning. After giving as seven laps with the car, miraculously we found parking and we have come to the shop door about 11:15 or so. Dionisio was not. We have attended Isabel (I insist, exists and is flesh and blood), said Dionisio we would call to tell him whether he would go to the shop and we would comment whatever. After a while he told us that Dionysius would not attend the workshop today, but as we were there, he was coming to talk to us.
At 12:20 I appeared Dionisio. As we said, it was precisely maquetando adventures, so it was elsewhere, but has come to meet us . We spent the shop and started talking about the subject that took us there.
The first conversation has revolved around the lack of information and demand that is being proposed and will soon realize, mainly because it does not accept an audit of production. Well, I will attempt to summarize more or less pointing in situations or conversations that seem relevant.
In principle we have said that the updates that are currently doing seem insufficient and lack of real content they want patrons. Patrons what they want is information on the current status of the project, no more thumbnails as are pulling in updates. Which it has been required by Lánzanos an audit which has been denied and that entails the preparation of the application to be raised.
I've told you not pick up the phone to Lánzanos and CEO of the Goro himself, he said to me personally that wants to talk to and who has tried several times. He has insisted that this is not so and had a discussion with people who were Lánzanos strong enough to ask the audit. From there, communication with Lánzanos has been practically nil, but insists he is not on his part.
Faced with this reply, I said I had the phone Goro Lánzanos on my mobile and had spoken to him personally and he was willing to call him to be put in and speak. To which he answered me that the CEO has your phone, if not called is because they do not want, what I insisted him again that he called myself from my phone ( in particular have insisted several times), but did not consider necessary. To call him CEO Lánzanos him.
Discussion on the above subject aside, started talking about the number of people who voted who wanted information or proceed to sue, which the mail Lánzanos were more than 1,800 people, other 274 wanted to sue regardless of whether they give information and only a small percentage of about 14, they were willing to wait whatever it takes. I wonder where he got those numbers and told him that Lánzanos, your email indicating the result of the vote. At that time I was closed in band, insisting again and again that these figures were not real and that only a small group of people are willing to sue. At that, I said that I was one of those who had voted asking for information and if I was not willing to sue was receiving, which are not 40 people as Cree, who are many , many more. To which insisted again that were not so many people and those numbers were not real or were manipulated. I did not let up and kept saying that is not the pulse that is taking on social networks, there are many people angry with the issue and that if they are willing to sue. To which told me it was a smokescreen of Lánzanos and he did not think Lánzanos were to put in a claim at its own expense thereof. Then I told him Lánzanos whether to bear the cost, again incredulously told me that who had told me, to which I replied that I did not told anyone that Lánzanos put it in writing in the e-mail sending the patrons pledging to take care of expenses. At that time, the anger of Dionisio step to another level. We started repeating things over and over again until I realized that I was much gesticulating and raising his voice lot, so stop a little down and try to come to me to solve any of this.
I could gather from this part it is that Dionisio lives in a state of denial about the news that bring out and is convinced that only what he believes is happening. Let it really is convinced that the situation is as you see it .
From there, we present to rockor, who was in the shop (no you may become ill thought out , was not the minis or anything like that), because he had to go to the ophthalmologist to Seville and had gone through the workshop to greet to the people. Come on , pure coincidence, that is not of Seville. We started talking about the four suit and wearing delay. He said that he had never given an official date for the start of the game to what I told him that given date in November 2014, that later when we went in August to talk to him, I personally (and those who came with me) us said he hoped to get the game before christmas of 2015 and subsequently at the end of December 2015 when I returned to go alone, I commented that February saw very sudden, but expected out in late March or April 2016 and in the last interview in April with the fellow who made the recording, he said he hoped for Christmas 2016 were tired of playing. That was totally contradictory to what I was saying now, what I replied that the dates are estimates and that difficulties can arise in production lengthen the time. I returned to insist that took two and a half years and so you see, we go for three years, which is more than enough time for that without any official information on the status of the project, people more than pissed off with this topic. Again, stop again because I was speeding too to return to channel the topic at hand and calm down a bit.
We returned to insist that you have to give information about the current status of the project because it is a problem comes up fat. He insisted that I updates that were doing is they had in the planing that had to do, what we mentioned that obviously, those updates are insufficient. We need to know that the project is done and that is what is missing. Many patrons are asking for such information and audit to prove it. As I have been saying again the donkey wheat. We decided to stop there for a moment (I wanted to smoke, entering me anxiety and thus more desire still smoking). We went out to the shop door and continue talking there, and in a slightly more relaxed atmosphere after more "fat", as it somehow.
Rockor I was talking with other projects, such as the skull, the alien vs. Predator or zombicide black plague and what had happened to these patronages trying to extrapolate the HeroQuest, seeing a little perspective had done well and poorly in these patronages and with that view to try to improve this.
We passed back to the workshop as Dionysius wanted to show us what he had done, for us to see that progress is being made in the project, which is not stopped and that people are still working on it. Well:
WHAT WE SAW:
It is that indeed, work continues on the subject. They have a tremendous amount of thumbnails already prepared and bagged in clear plastic bags zip. These thumbnails are ready to put them in boxes HeroQuest when prepared for shipping. I could see at least two people responsible for wiping away the fattest burrs and go pocketing miniatures, which were at a table filled to the top of minis. (were not only two who were working in the factory, had more, but not approach me to see they were doing). From what we could see, the project forward, forward. I can not tell you the number of boxes that were with things and ready, but they were a real stupidity. That if you gave me a favorable impression.
WHAT WE SAID DIONISIO:
We reemphasized having a second warehouse and even offered to take us in that moment, but circumstances (my friend had the bad boy and had to pick him up from nursery), prevented us from accepting the offer. He also told us that currently is more focused on logistics and coordinate everything for when you get boxes and impressions and perform the assembly to be making as well as the transfer of miniatures, etc ... it was now what more you He brought head.
IMPORTANT: The rules are finished. No longer modify more rules. They are completed altogether. Also ask for adventure books and told me are running both at the same time, there are about 150 missions in total and precisely when we went to the shop, he was somewhere else maquetando missions.
My companion asked for miniatures, if missing any end. What we said yes. There were still the most "difficult", who were raising them problems that they might fluid in the game (not by rules but by the size and mobility of the pieces), which were finishing solve those problems that were emerging and They expected soon have them produced on a large scale.
Specifically he said we had already made, tested and approved more than 3,000,000 thumbnails that most are already bagged and ready to get into the box.
About printing. It not yet sent anything to press. I insist that it is the logistical problem that told me, expect the total impressions are approximately 10 trailers, so they have to coordinate printing with the assembly to be removing and storing boxes simultaneously.
It indicates that it could have taken the HeroQuest in December 2015, but the version for tents only and does not seem right to him to come to stores rather than patrons (we return to this point at issue he had been discussing with rockor on zombicide black plague, which they did exactly that). As he had decided not to take the version store until it had delivered to patrons.
TO END:
We continued to talk and even accompanied us to where we had parked the car to continue talking about it. And in a more quiet conversation, we were talking about the need again to inform patrons project status, but is convinced that there will always be a sector that whatever I say or show what show, will continue in the hard mode against gamezone . We said that is inevitable, but most of the patrons are not to blame or the responsibility of that and also want that information. As an example we put the list that I do Joaquin Lopez miniatures that were seen and they had not seen and that sat well with the community, even a band mate had made a website where you could see the thumbnails they were made next to the picture of it. That is a step to show that this fact and missing.
Finally, I say that I gave him my email and stay to e-mail to give me your personal mail and we were both in touch. For what? Well, to inform patrons meetings with Lánzanos so you can go the Skype also because it says that Lánzanos does not notify anything, I have been in notifying me personally. For there is no doubt that it has communique. Although he insisted that give me his phone, only finally he agreed to email, but hey, it's something.
CONCLUSION:
I see that the project moves forward, slow, maddening, but progresses. They do not see the slightest concerned about the alleged lack of money rumored in social networks. On the contrary, they are seen fairly quiet in that regard. The news of the demand and the number of people behind this issue has been a stick did not expect (and that seems to me do not quite believe). The anger with the CEO of Lánzanos is palpable. And I hope that this clarion call (and I say, sometimes risque ... mia culpa), has opened his eyes a little to the problem that pops up and begins to put media wall. I hope.
Well, so far, all the summary of our visit. Sure I leave things in the pipeline, but being honest, I'm going blind and powder made from writing. I'm mu jarto and Lene!
As I am sure you will arise questions or concerns about the visit this morning, as always I will try to answer you all the best of my ability.
DaveC wrote: New email from Lanzanos (Google Translate in action)
TL: DR
Gamezone have not given Lanzanos the details they requested so they are giving them 10 days to supply the information or Lanzanos will instruct their lawyers do commence legal proceedings.
So Lanzanos sues Gamezone to prove Gamezone is in breach of contract, terminate their relationship legally so backers then have teeth to hunt down Gamezone for refunds? Or are they trying to get the whole money back in some way?
The broken translation and wall of Text, I am trying to find out the end-game for Lanzanos legally?
DaveC wrote: New email from Lanzanos (Google Translate in action)
TL: DR
Gamezone have not given Lanzanos the details they requested so they are giving them 10 days to supply the information or Lanzanos will instruct their lawyers do commence legal proceedings.
So Lanzanos sues Gamezone to prove Gamezone is in breach of contract, terminate their relationship legally so backers then have teeth to hunt down Gamezone for refunds? Or are they trying to get the whole money back in some way?
The broken translation and wall of Text, I am trying to find out the end-game for Lanzanos legally?
I'm hoping one of our bilingual friends can give us the readers digest version. Google Translate appears to have had a few too many nips last night.
455_PWR wrote: Yea they said they would wait for more information. So gamezone will post periodic useless updates about a game that was funded years ago and we will never see.
Sorry folks but we got ripped off. If Kingdom death could keep semi regular or sporadic communication, sculpt everything, and make that amazing game with an intense amount of product... it's amazing gamezone can't, with a lesser product and lesser amount of material by far.
I wonder how many vacations our money was spent on.
I dunno - how late was Kingdom Death, how much money did it make, how much did they underestimate the size and cost of the base game? Actually it seems like Kingdom Death is a great parallel to HQ25
That is a libel on Kingdom Death.
KD:M was run by an actual company selling actual product, delivering actual KS prior to the KD:M launch. KD:M actually showed progress and KD:M actually delivered.
And really, you guys all have yourselves to blame. HQ25 got kicked off 2 "legit" platforms before finding someone who'd host them. Loads of red flags all around. The idea that this wasn't a scam from the get-go is laughable.
I don't think it was an intentional scam. I think it suffered massively from too much self-belief, scope creep and unrealistic levels of what could be achieved (see: Journey, Shadows of Brimstone, Robotech Tactics, Games & Gears game boards, any number of others).
Unfortunately, this one seems to have suffered from all of that in far worse than any of the above. I'm dubious on whether there will ever be a second wave of Journey or RRT at this stage. Brimstone will eventually deliver, hopefully in 2017. As John states, getting kicked off both KS and IGG are huge red flags. Hell, I don't trust most of the stuff on KS at this point, let alone IGG...
I do feel bad for the backers, though. And a little bad for GameZone as well.
I think it was a clear scam from the day it was announced. It was obvious that HQ25 was playing fast and loose with the law and the truth, in order to grab money as fast as possible, regardless of the consequences. How that didn't read as a fraud and a scam to everyone around is beyond me.
Journey delivered Wave 1, and the game was a lot of fun - we played all 10 scenarios in the book, and it delivered a lovingly boutique experience. Robotech Tactics delivered Wave 1, and the models met my expectations. Kingdom Death delivered everything and surpassed my every expectation.
I'm assuming that we'll see Journey Wave 2 deliver, and we'll see what that entails. For all we know, Journey could be like DreamForge delivering 3+ waves, each progressively later. I'm not familiar with Brimstone, so no comment there.
I don't feel particularly bad for the backers or GameZone. After HQ25 had been kicked off KS and IGG, it's hard to imagine any other result that what we have today. I imagine that people backed with throwaway money, purely on hope and nostalgia. Much as I did on Robotech.
JohnHwangDD wrote: KD:M was run by an actual company selling actual product,
Gamezone is an actual company selling actual product. I have quite bit of Gamezone product and have ordered quite a bit including directly from them and have received it all. There is no doubt that Gamezone exists is a company and has served customers for many, many years, with high quality product. I do not understand the implication that Gamezone is somehow NOT an actual company selling actual product, unless you were completely unaware that Gamezone existed for many years selling product before the Heroquest project. In which case, yes, Gamezone is an actual company and they do sell actual product. Now you know.
JohnHwangDD wrote: delivering actual KS prior to the KD:M launch. KD:M actually showed progress and KD:M actually delivered.
Gosh and it was super duper late and the scope of the project spiraled out of control to the point where the core box set costs several times the original estimate. Kingdom Death suffered the same thing that countless crowdfunding projects suffer - overpromising and extraordinary delays. Did Kingdom Death deliver in November 2013? Or was it two years late for just the core game? Is 5 Kickstarter updates per year an acceptable number to show progress? As that's how many Kingdom Death had in 2015. And are they not charging shipping for each wave now, because, again, they overpromised and now the backers are having to pay extra? Just because Kingdom Death has shiny fancy miniatures doesn't mean it wasn't run pretty badly. Not AVP badly, of course, but there are a fair number of parallels between KD and HQ.
Actually dude it really seems like you've just decided to jump into this thread without actually knowing what's going on. There's been updates - frustratingly few, yes - showing progress over the last several years. However, tere's been videos - at least a hundred now? - showing sculpts of completed miniatures and pieces. There's been videos and pictures of the Gamezone HQ, and we've seen giant sorting bins full of thousands of copies of each miniature. I went ahead and searched and couldn't find that you have not posted in this thread before - or at least, in the last 18 months. So at this point I can assume you are either entirely ignorant of the situation or you are maliciously, uh, as you put it, being libelous, or whatever I assume the former since it would be ridiculous to claim "that is libel on Gamezone".
JohnHwangDD wrote: I think it was a clear scam from the day it was announced.
Well, if that is what you think, then what you think is entirely wrong.
It is absolutely clear that Gamezone has been working on the project for years, as anyone who has been following the project even remotely would be aware of. If you had bothered to attempt to learn about the project, or even read the Lanzanos update posted right before your post, you'd be aware that there is no question that the project is in development and has made progress, it is that Lanzanos wants an accounting of what is complete and when Gamezone expects it to ship. Everyone wants that. Especially Lanzanos as Heroquest is their highest profile project, ever.
At this point, there are absolutely some things to be concerned about - detailed in the Lanzanos letter - as in, "what is left to produce?" and "when is an actual ETA?" but claiming that it is a "clear scam" and impyling that Gamezone is not an "actual company selling actual product" is just wrong. You are wrong.
At the time of HQ25 funding, GameZone was just Dionysius (sp) alone, using existing molds. His in-house sculptor left, and the sculptor hired for HQ25 also left because he did not want to work for D. D said in an update that the sculptor who left referred him to another sculptor, and the sculptor who left said this was not true.
I wouldn't say it's a scam, but that doesn't matter when a project rubs out of money. D has already taken a loan, asked for shipping money months ago, and has take pre-orders also months ago. Spanish backers are upset. And now Lazanos is talking legal action. Doesn't sound like promising news to me.
New update from Lanzanos -in Spanish and I can't repost from my phone right now
Basically it has proved impossible to get cooperation from Gamezone as Dionisio is sticking firmly to what he has said before and will not engage further.
Lanzanos now has 4 options
1. Wait which they are no longer prepared to do
2. Lanzanos takes a case on their own seeking damages for failing to meet the conditions of the contract signed between Lanzanos and Gamezone. They would also seek damages for the damage to the reputation and image of Lanzanos
3. Wait for the current complaint to finish http://www.darkstone.es/index.php?topic=179.15420 4. Joint civil complaint by Lazanos and backers. There would be an administrative cost to backers and it's possible this would just get rolled together with the other complaints any way.
If Lanzanos proceed alone proceedings will start in August. Other options will take longer.
They are seeking backer opinions and a link to a poll is provided ( which I won't post publically). Poll closes this Sunday. The poll is in Spanish only so I don't know what options are presented I'll check it out tonight and vote then.
I think that's it folks chalk this one up as a loss and move on Gamezone will use any legal action as an excuse not to deliver and there will be very little left after any legal proceedings. While I'm disappointed I knew this was a risky project and was prepared for a write off. I'm happy to see the Lanzanos are taking this seriously and are willing to pursue it through the courts
Translated for you DaveC. I've included the link to the poll, it requires a valid email address for a backer that registered with Lanzanos to get counted, so I see no problem in sharing the link.
6th Heroquest 25th Anniversary News Maecenas .
Apologize again for the delay in writing this email and the lack of news that you have suffered , but I have written , deleted, re-made and re- erase this communication about 5 times because I really do not know what to say that really could be considered helpful for you because I see that there are different opinions and I fully understand that you thought not having to pay even a fee for association if this is carried out through professionals.
Having still under consideration, Lánzanos always been committed to pay a lawyer, prosecutor , expert if necessary and court fees but can not pay for such power of attorney if necessary of the patrons or the administrative expenses of sending information certified by patrons (for instance).
From Lánzanos we have sent the burofax that what we reported Dionisio did not deign to pick up. Of course all communications that are made from Lánzanos and all the information I have sent so you can not say that I speak with the patrons , or perform actions back to GameZone , and to keep you informed of the situation as it has been our intention from the beginning. And I say , who knows for us discontent of patrons , which since Lánzanos we have taken very seriously from a few months ago and we told .
This situation is not liked by anyone, including members of Lánzanos , but it seems that cooperation with GameZone is impossible if you do not intend to commune with what Dionisio believes unilaterally , even having made promises before. Lánzanos not understand this way of working , and although we have been trying to do things as best as possible , we understand that not only can not linger much in our actions, but also patrons deserve to see that there is already movement.
We did not leave our amazement at how a person can get to escalate the situation and might not you believe it , but we know very bad for you, because not knowing what about the project in which invertisteis your money is something that it seems to us the least deserves a patron of respect. As I have said several times , neither know , nor have we ever experienced a similar situation .
The options we have if we want to denounce this situation are as follows :
Lánzanos to denounce alone: This prevents further problems and inconvenience to patrons. The complaint would be for damages and for failing to meet the conditions of the contract indicating the delivery date of the game and compliance information GameZone assumed. We obviously do not have the strength to have patrons (with which they have completely failed to fulfill its conditions) but as has also failed to comply with the conditions signed with us, we have this option. In this way we could even get to seek damages the image of Lánzanos, because there is no doubt that today all this has brought us more trouble than anyone, and the inaction of GameZone has been a hard couple drubbing Lánzanos, which has tried everything to reason with Dionisio.
Joint Civil complaint Lánzanos and Maecenas: This is the most complicated solution, and already having several proceedings against Gamezone could be enfangar more things because GameZone can reach request unify complaints exist against the company, and the process would be extended, but it is also the way that ye may be able patrons who participate in such action. The real drawback that can and seems to exist for many here is that in case of bringing the management of the Association of People Affected a professional (which is the option that Lánzanos offered) there would be some administrative costs by patrons, are lower than for example ask for a power notarial but they exist. Either way we would be happy to go hand in hand with all the patrons who wanted to, because if this is not possible, also would conduct Action 1 to defend to the extent of what we can by law your rights in the best way.
I think these are the 4 solutions that are now on the table, other than keep waiting (which I do not consider nor a solution, much less satisfactory). If Lánzanos made the complaint alone, I try to go around as fast as possible and deliver it before the break of the courts of August, with any of the other options Lánzanos depend on other parts and do not handle the same way time since everything depends not only on ourselves. Even so, and as I said earlier, most Lánzanos respect the will of patrons and implement decisions that remain to be taken.
We fully understand your anger at this situation and hope that what comes out of future actions will please most.
On Sunday, 10 that vote will be closed to linger as little as possible with all this, and if the winning answer is the complaint of Lánzanos (either alone or with patrons) would begin to work as soon as possible to get everything closed and sent before August.
Without further ado .
A greeting.
Gregorio Lopez - Treviño
no way to copy/paste the poll options directly from the questionnaire, so I can't give a google translation of that unfortunately.
Thanks Gorechild ah yes now I see it needs a valid email address.
Ok I voted wait it's the only way I can see of getting the game the other options probably kill any chance of that. Unfortunately I'm probably in a minority but every vote counts
Esperar sin Actuar: Esto quiere decir que prefieres esperar a que Gamezone termine el proyecto sin intermediación ni solicitud de información. Son también una decena de mecenas los que me han pedido que por favor dejemos en paz a Gamezone que lo único que hacemos es retrasar el proyecto.
Waiting without acting: This means you'd rather wait for Gamezone finish the project without intermediation or information request. They are also a dozen patrons who have asked me to please let alone Gamezone that all we do is delay the project.
Considering gamezone told lazanos off, and won't give backers much of anything... I think it's clear they won't deliver. They ran out of funds and therefore have been working on other projects.
I voted to have lazanos proceed with the lawsuit by themselves. I think this is in the best interest of all backers as a lawsuit can either shut down gamezone and give backers some reimbursement, or a judge could even tell them you will do, or else.
I decided to ask for NOTHING to be done at this point. I can't see that the lawsuit would regain me any of my money, but that it would certainly shut down Gamezone - guaranteeing that I would never see anything from this situation. I would rather hold out in hopes of eventually receiving my order - whenever that might be! Hanging in there (perhaps by a noose, but hanging in there, none the less!).
I've opted for wait as well.. as I doubt we'd get much back otherwise... and taking Gamezone to court just seems a quick way to ensure we get nothing..
In the Meantime GZ have been putting out semi regular updates although there's nothing really new in them. I suppose this way they can say that they are providing information. Again it's mostly miniatures there's little about the actual game.
But it sounds like they won't even deign to talk to Lanzanos at all? All we have seen looks good, but I would like to actually get something at some point
Vindicare101 wrote: I've opted for wait as well.. as I doubt we'd get much back otherwise... and taking Gamezone to court just seems a quick way to ensure we get nothing..
It reads like there has been a second questionnaire from Lanzanos, or are you referring to the one a couple of months back?
I havent had any email notication of a second questionnaire.
Esperar sin Actuar: Esto quiere decir que prefieres esperar a que Gamezone termine el proyecto sin intermediación ni solicitud de información. Son también una decena de mecenas los que me han pedido que por favor dejemos en paz a Gamezone que lo único que hacemos es retrasar el proyecto.
Waiting without acting: This means you'd rather wait for Gamezone finish the project without intermediation or information request. They are also a dozen patrons who have asked me to please let alone Gamezone that all we do is delay the project.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It is a new poll, that closes this sunday... usefully only available in spanish..
4 options..
Let a current lawsuit complete and see what happens from there
Lanzaonos pursues their own law suit.
Lanzanos and the backers undertake a lawsuit, which will incur costs for us
Or..
Leave them be a little longer and see if they get their act together..
49.4% - Lanzanos denounce alone.
18.5% - Wait for the complaint that there are today.
11.8% - Joint Civilian Complaint Lanzanos and the patrons.
20.3% - Keep waiting.
Of a total of 994 answers (totals were 1,260 responses to the survey and filtered 266 votes)
Since last week, the Lanzanos´s lawyer is preparing the complaint. Thanks to you we have almost 20 Gb of videos, documents and articles of Dionisio. The documents contradict each other and give dates completely wrong and outdated.
Also he calls all patrons the shipping costs of the rewards and he knew that he didn´t have the rewards ready. The complaint was sent to the court but when I knew anything I will say you.
I also ask the patrons who have gone to the workshop, that tell us their impressions to share with all patrons through these newsletters.
On these bulletins if you're patrons of Lánzanos or you have pre purchased the game through its website and these emails didn´t arrive to you, please email me but keep in mind that many ISP cut mailings because this email is sent to 5000 recipients, maybe some email goes to SPAM or are cut, so I invite you to do public forums or where they believe appropriate.
I am not surprised by the low response rate and high proportion of spoiled votes. The ballot confused me, and I still have no indication my vote properly registered.
The process should have been localised into English French and German, and simplified to include radial buttons.
There was no need for the whole textwall to be translated, just a line or two explaining the situation and then simplified vote option.
Still a de facto vote on Spanish speaking backers is enough of an indication to take action on. The demographic should be fairly even.
I am concerned that ANY chance we had of GZ completing and shipping this game at any point in the future will now go up in smoke as a result of legal pressures (which I don't think will result in anything for those of us who are backers).
On a lighter note.... I'm enjoying the critical move video that recently posted. I'm glad that there is a dice roll that will allow me to avoid vertical TRAMPS!!
DaveC wrote: The individual backer has dropped their case after talks with Dionisio who managed to convince him that everything is on track and great
Good outcome.
I still believe they are making genuine progress. Dionisio is out of his depth trying to fulfil a big project, not rolling in stolen money saying "MUHAHAHAHA, I am rich you foolZ."
UrShulgi
Published August 8, 2016 1:02:05 p.m.
My wife told me the receipt. This is veeeeeery large, some weapon stems crooked but everything exudes quality, figs are superb.
by the way
Published August 8, 2016 1:06:16 p.m.
Even small problems in the box that I just received.
julejim
Published August 8, 2016 1:20:10 p.m.
Uh ... Oh no you did receive ... No to poiler and laugh. Phew it's ugly.
Pit0780
Published August 8, 2016 1:24:31 p.m. - Updated August 8, 2016 1:25:02 p.m.
It was delivered ?????
What you can be killjoy ...
clarcknova
Published August 8, 2016 5:22:13 p.m.
It lacks rules in mine
I have created a login to warn you ... sorry to break your hopes...but you can forgot this forum if you are looking for real news !
Since more than a year (if not from the beggining) this thread as become a real running joke where all messages are fakes and/or jokes !
the most reccurent one being : "the rules are coming next week"
ced1106 wrote: One of the posters on the trictrac thread said he's ready to review the game based on what he received from GZ:
Spoiler:
...although, as far as I could get from the translator to this trictrac thread, GZ is accepting "pre-orders" from their website -- and some posters are discussing how they can get refunds. Nothing we don't already know.
starflier23 wrote: I am concerned that ANY chance we had of GZ completing and shipping this game at any point in the future will now go up in smoke as a result of legal pressures (which I don't think will result in anything for those of us who are backers).
I thought the same but then decided Lanzanos wants HQ25 to succeed since HQ25 is the largest (?) Project Lanzanos has. So they are liable to do all they can to make it so.
I think in the meantime enjoy other games, play some Zombicide and forthcoming Conan, hopefully things will come out in the wash and we will get a surprise knock on the door one day :(
So Lanzanos have instigated legal proceedings but only on their own behalf and only for damages related to their corporate image. They are not seeking anything on backers behalf. They are seeking to retain €17,500 they withheld as a deposit as the damages. Apparently this is in accordance with the survey result as 49% voted that they should act on their own. I don't think people realised that this was what was intended when they voted.
So Lanzanos cover themselves and leave backers hanging in much the same position as before?
Quote from Lanzanos owner
And Lanzanos is not going to ever assume any responsibility, because otherwise crowdfunding would cease to exist.
It may not be too late to discourage Lanzanos from taking legal action. The quickest way is to contact Lanzanos. I often write messages in English and Spanish using google translate.
There is a rumor that Lanzanos will sue Gamezone due to alleged damage to the Lanzanos name. Crowdfunders know that crowdfunding sites are not responsible for the project initiator's mistakes. We do however know crowdfunding sites are responsible for their legal actions which could end the crowdfunding projects as well as for deceptive polls which give the crowdfunding sites an excuse for self serving legal action.
Hay un rumor de que Lanzanos demandará a Gamezone debido al presunto daño al nombre Lanzanos. Crowdfunders saben que los sitios de crowdfunding No somos responsables delos errores delos iniciadores del proyecto. Nosotros sin embargo sabemos sitios de crowdfunding son responsables de sus acciones que pudieran poner fin a los proyectos de crowdfunding, así como para las encuestas engañosas que dan los sitios de crowdfunding una excusa para la auto sirviendo acciones legales.
That article is from 20th January 2016 I wouldn't read much into it now. HQ25 has been "coming soon" for a long time now. I doubt it will be delivered in 2016 (if it ever is).
DaveC wrote: That article is from 20th January 2016 I wouldn't read much into it now. HQ25 has been "coming soon" for a long time now. I doubt it will be delivered in 2016 (if it ever is).
Damn, ok my oversight. well here is a retailer who says the game will be available in December, so backers should get it sooner. And before the pessimists point out the disclaimer, I know the retailer says the date may change.https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://juegosdelamesaredonda.com/56-novedades/marca_-smiling_goblin%3Fp%3D9&prev=search
Aitor, who's been following the Darkstone forums, translated from the official release that it still won't be sold. A little odd that this event will be at a comic book convention, but, whatever.
My own guess is that Dionysius (sp) may be looking for additional funds or investors. He's already taken a loan. They've already asked for shipping a *long* time ago and didn't ship, so that money has been spent.
That being said, GZ *is* making other miniatures for other companies. "Recently, a darkstone user bought a whole amazon fantasy football team from a company that were casted using Gamezone resin. (The miniatures were originally in metal.) According to him, all miniatures were okay at first, but after some days they bent and deformed to some extent all by themselves."
Spoiler:
Now, I know GZ has been having problems making resin figures, but I assumed that was only caused by changing the resin formula because of the dye formula Dionysius wanted to use, or because of the thinness of the sculpts. I've forgotten if part of the problem was with his own staff's training in resin spin crafting figures. IIRC, He didn't have any staff before GZ funded.
Posted today by Fyd Forge and Desván TV here is google translates attempt at translation:
"The game has not yet gone on sale, and will not until they receive the patrons. This year at the Comic Expo Madrid will be displayed and the product will guess when patrons are already delivered for sale in stores."
Fingers crossed. I'd written off any hope for receiving this about a year ago, but if I'm not mistaken, this is the only time they've officially given an actual release date since the original deadline isn't it?
It sounds promising at least, I wouldn't count on it actually turning up until it ends up at my front door though :p
Well, maybe I should pay for my pledges shipping then. I never did as I wrote this off as a scam and didn't want to throw away more cash. I really hope we do get our games.
There is a difference between a scam and a mismanaged business failing to deliver. The former implies a deliberate attempt to take money with no intent to deliver from the outset, I don't think that was the case in this instance.
But had written this off as a lost kickstarter. A real shame as there was so much potential and the minis we had seen looked lovely.
If there are stirrings would be great to finally see something. If not, fortunately I've invested in other Kickstarters that have delivered, such as Zombiecide black plague and Conan.
This again proves to me how naive GZ are though. Why on earth do they think anyone in their right mind would contemplate handing over money to preorder this game now?
If it had been completed and shipped so that backers could vouch for its quality/existence I would understand people wanting to preorder. Those funds could then help produce a batch of games for retail, but as it stands, they're just wanting more people to trust them. So far, there is no evidence to suggest that that is a sensible idea.
Gorechild, I think this is a mental trap of Gamezone. They genuinely are close to completion, however they might never get to make the final step.
If we add up what hasnt been done and it mostly revolves around cardboard components, i.e. outsourced manufacturing.
Any factory willing to make cards for HQ25 will want to be paid, abnd I doubt Gamezone can pay. The company is trying to get extra pre-orders in order to fund these portions of the campaign, and frankly I dont think they can.
The new year was my cut off. I will be asking Gamezone for my miniatures (it was what all I was actually after).
Any factory willing to make cards for HQ25 will want to be paid, abnd I doubt Gamezone can pay. The company is trying to get extra pre-orders in order to fund these portions of the campaign, and frankly I dont think they can.
I completely agree, but what still baffles me is that if this is true, why not say so? Because currently they're just releasing pointless fortnightly videos showcasing models we all saw 18 months ago, and announcing a release date that, if you're correct, they are still unlikely to meet.
If they admitted they needed the funding from preorders to pay for the boards to get printed but showed that all of the mini's had been produced, with a photo of the hundreds of filled crates we saw and a new picture similar to this one:
Spoiler:
Proving the game is basically done, I'm sure it would encourage more people to order.
and more images http://imgur.com/a/DbBxS - those cards surely at this stage they can do better than running them off on an office printer
Oh dear ... as suspected miniatures are about all they have to show for "all" their work. What have they spent nearly €700k on?
News: nothing, zero, niente, nothing. People who have spoken to Dionisio asking for explanations or dates have encountered the habitual and repeated "we keep the secret, we prefer that you take the surprise, we want to wait until it is finished to teach things".
Painted minis: painting the minis is very simple. Just basecoat plus brushes dry and washed or bonded. The minis look nothing, but nothing with this poor paint job.
Cardboard and paperwork: letters, character sheets ... printed in a "stream" to have something to teach but certainly nothing done. HORRORS spelling, writing problems, rules that have more holes than Hulk breeches after a hairless ...
Board: printed and pasted on foam board. As is. Functional, sip. But…
Overall impression: everyone agrees that there has been, what has been is botched, it is a project which is carried as a promotion for presentation to start doing something. There was nothing finished (except the minis) and the painting on top did not make them look, but the opposite. ... Zero new information ... and what's worse, more rumors. Like that in a few days they will send us an email to offer us to return the money or stay the game. And I REPEAT, rumors, because when someone says "I've been told he said it" is not worth even to announce it as "maybe". There are people who have tried the game but ... there are no reviews yet of what they found (if they speak however of the poor aspect of the prototype with which they have played).
I don't believe the refund thing at all but at this stage I'd take the money and run.
I thought the game looked great... those minis just look ok. I personally think zombicide black plague minis look more detailed!
I hope they let us get refunds as they spoke of. For as fun as the game would be (if ever released), Im not up for the gamble anymore. I'd rather use the cash to play one of the many systems I am involved in now.
I mean they've been sending out (to me at least) fairly regular updates via email with model previews and each one recently - last few months - has been saying March 2017 on it.
I'd hope so, but based on their track record, it's just as likely that they thought they were in March two months ago when they sent out the original email, and they haven't bothered to update their website since then
Fingers crossed we hear something in the next few weeks, but I wouldn't hold your breath. I set my expectations to rock bottom after they missed their second Christmas deadline, and that was over a year ago now! Expect nothing and at least there is a small chance of getting a pleasant surprise.
judgedoug wrote: I mean they've been sending out (to me at least) fairly regular updates via email with model previews and each one recently - last few months - has been saying March 2017 on it.
Videos and pictures of models don't count today any more than they did a year -- or more -- ago.
I'm also really concerned about some of the translations that have been coming up in these recent videos. There are a couple of rules in that last one that sound like their 'professional translator' is google. Yes you can figure out what it's means, but it's going to really cheapen the end product for anyone that isn't getting their version in Spanish.
Yes, I went, and when I got there Dionisio agreed to help me during quite a while, even though I didn't have an appointment.
Details:
1- When he announced the March release date he thought he had everything ready to pack and ship. According to him, his part is done and he is waiting for various materials to be shipped to an external company (rules, boards, etc.). I asked him when does he expect to receive them, and he told me it has been delayed for two further weeks. He BELIEVES he will be able to have all components in April.
2- He has showed me boxes and boxes of miniatures, all of them labeled and stacked. He has carried already more stuff to the 2nd warehouse he rented, where the packaging will take place.
3- The shipment will be staggered by priorities: starting with Backers, but not by order number because that would mean 2 shipments to Madrid, another one to Burgos and another to Seville, then 3 more to Madrid, etc. He intends to group them by ZIP code. Seems logical.
4- He accepts that many things were made wrong and basically it was a consequence of him liking to work in its own way. It is up to us if we like it or not.
5- He hasn't refuted our theory of lack of funds, stating that when the project was going, the initial funds ran out and he had to find new investors.
6- He insists that we will like the material we are going to receive.
7- Lastly, he hopes that we have a little more patience.
And now, as a personal opinion. I think the project will eventually be made, and it looks that is close to finish. The design quality and miniature quality... that's up to each one of us. I wasn't able and didn't want to look into the details of the miniatures, because I was much more interested in the progress of the project as a whole. I don't know if I miss something, it was a really quick visit. Feel free to ask me anything.
Also
Hello again!
viofla77, one of the members of the italian supporting group, quits after being fed up with Dionisio. According to him:
"Hello everybody, I want to tell you this before you hear it from elsewhere. Today I have quitted the italian translation group. I am really sad because withdrawing my help to other members from La Tana Dei Goblin is something that does not fit within my character.
The first reason is that Dionisio wrote me on September telling me he will send me the files for revision, but he lied to me because the files arrived yesterday in Spanish. Revising and translating are very different things.
The second reason is that he sent us just the cards. How can we translate the cards without having the rulebook? I can't stand it anymore. I'm fed up with this. We'll see what happens in Italy; I think most of them will be happy of having received something after three years, but not me."
More news from HQF french "fan"
If some one could translate, complete french text above...
Just few things, he says:
He has received a part of french files translated by professional translator. He checked and corrected with 3 others "fan".
There is just 50 adventures.
He prefer to be a little more late in order to have a perfect game.
He doesn't want go to so fast.
He asked to Dioniso for few precision about icons, effects,...
A lot of things have changed, he has not all stuff. Two days ago, he said he received all files.
He is in big stress.
He asked one week of vacation on his real job to check everything. He is thinking to ask a second one.
April seems unlikely if translating and proof reading is still being done and then printing needs to happen. The above translators are volunteers not professionals and I certainly wouldn't be giving up annual leave for this!
DaveC, as always thanks so much for your trawls of other forums and blogs to get this information. Is really appreciated
I wonder how we stand for an English translation?
It will be a great deal of work translating some rules. Even something very simple, you often have to interpret the intent of how things should be, it won't be just a case of just throwing in Google Translate. Look at how much Infinity improved in-between editions for instance, and that is with a large, dedicated fanbase. Certainly, if I were an Italian backer I would probably be forgetting about this one for a while for the time being.
The first section seemed rather hopeful, the rest less so (although at least the miniatures are there, board pieces etc. so it seems most of the way there..)
Pacific wrote: DaveC, as always thanks so much for your trawls of other forums and blogs to get this information. Is really appreciated
Yes, and hearing another person confirm they saw warehouses full of miniatures is encouraging. Th game might never get completed, but the minis look like they are ready. On a personal if a little bit selfish perspective I would be happy with that.
I wouldnt assume it to be a market priority for HQ25 as it is for just about anything else. Enderal was professionally localised into English but no other language, French players get subtitles only. As a boardgame its easier to multi-language localise but English must be a priority, its the only other language they do update videos for and Dionisio can speak English anyway so he can check it himself.
That being said most legal objections come from within the English speaking countries. I don't think the French and Germans could give a rats anus about Moon Zones objections.
To be fair I would have thought the UK should be OK as well, although it's quite possible now that this has been going on for so long that the angry little guy who did the RPG with the same name has completely forgotten about it..
If this is not resolved by then Gamezone would have likely folded. Its a cost black hole now until production is underway for good and sales come in. That cant last indefinititely even if backers and Lanzanos remain patient, a small company cant survive two more years of that level of drain and still work on the game.
AFAIK English and Spanish were done concurrently. I think only Italian, German, French require translations. I would guess they ship last.
I would also guess that in order to make money, he will ship Spanish editions to e-minis and English editions to Wayland/etc for retail sales, immediately.
This is one of the riskiest crowd-funding ventures I bought into (in the hopes of having something to introduce my then-7 year old nephew to gaming).
I have zero faith anything will show up. Having designed and produce a game by myself I understand the difficulties...but the pictures we see from conventions - that's stuff that could be done up in a month. Not three+ years. This project is so shockingly behind schedule it's...not going to happen.
Hello to everyone, yes, I have not written here for some time.
I want to inform you through this website, as an official means of communication that this month of March, as is obvious, it has not been possible to do any shipping. The reason is quite simple, the printed material has not arrived, due to a delay in the printed materials’ layout so the production has been delayed a little.
For our part we have ready almost everything, although there have been some minis that have given us more than a few unexpected problems, they have been solved and luckily we can say that it is simply, now, the ins in outs as we mass produce them.
The rest of the material is ready to start being pack and sent to their respective destinations, but of course, until we have the printed material, this cannot happen.
And how much will this delay be? Unfortunately I cannot give you an exact date, but an approximate time, we have been assured that in around of 4 to 6 weeks we should have everything here.
We know that this news will , in general terms, feel like a sack of rocks to the face. We understand that everyone wants the game now, and we are doing everything possible to have it in your homes as soon as possible. Your patience is helping us to ensure that this project, in which we have been working for so long, comes to fruition and therefore, WE WANT TO THANK ALL THE BACKER.
On the other hand, and because everything does not have to be bad news, even if the “Great Ork Boss” slices and dices me for what I am about to say, (bozz, no lookie az ziz) We are trying to push the timescale down , but there is no certainty we will be able to. I cannot tell you much more at the moment. I can advance, and as I have been asked many times, that in a few days we are going to upload a video on the subject of shipments and others things, this explanation will be very clear because we have asked some people who are very good at explaining and know a lot to get on it.
On this homestretch, I will try to keep you informed as much as possible, so stay tuned to this channel.
The wait is coming to an end, I ask for only a little more patience.
As long as that post isn't a pile of April Fools horse manure (and it would be an astonishingly bad one to do!), that's the best news to come out of this project, ever!
I wouldn't read too much into that. Gamezone evidently made full production run of any component they made the mold for when it was made. Its not an unsound strategy and isnt related to their failures.
Yes some boxes were filled with some components back in December 2015, and likely before even. However at the time they only had concept art for most of the items, let alone masters.
Now all the masters are done, because the exhibition show copies offer a complete set of miniatures. I think it is safe to say that therefore all the component pieces are done, and the rules are finally done. I don't have too much issue with that part being delayed as it made sense also to place the ruleset under review for all the while that the miniatures were being designed sculpted and manufactured.
it looks to me that the state of play is genuine, the game is complete with regards to components, and likely complete in terms of rules. Localisation may or may not be complete, but that is a minor issue. The issue is for manufacture of cardboard components, frankly I think Gamezone has run out of money to pay for the outsourced production, or the companies involved have gazzumped Gamezone and are holding out for a bigger % as they hold the better hand in negotiations. I cannot confirm that, but allowing for how business works nowadays it is not unlikely; it would also be easy to disguise such greed as good business sense, Gamezone is not exactly stable, this project has a poor reputation, and a printer may well demand payment up front, and at the same time raise their price well above standard.
Gamezone is piece of string length away from completing the game for backers, I would not be in any way surprised if it all now comes down to cashflow to pay printers, or they have been gouged by a third party for services for same. As a laid back enterprise Gamezone is wide open to being taken advantage of frankly. Dionisio is a nice guy who doesnt exactly look like the type to plan ahead from what I know from people who met him.
Hello everyone, as the title of the post says, A promise is a promise, I promised you an update on things that have not yet been seen. So here are a few more things.
As the cards still have not arrived I want to show you the final design and layout some of them will have. As you can understand I cannot put them all here but I have posted a few so you can get a general idea.
We will start with cards from the basic set. A previous design version was seen at the expocomic in Madrid. Here you can compare them with the final design layout.
Next we have some cards from level 3. Up till now you have only seen working designs. Here you have the final layout of the Heroic , ill-fated , artifact , elemental spells , and primordial chaos spell cards.
I have left the best for last. For those of you who want to see hard printed material, here you have some. First we have a shot of the front of the game box:
And here is the backside, with the face of She who is waiting for us to enter her realm.
What could be better than seeing several boxes together? To see the size of the different boxes and the illustration of the sides.
Although the board has already been shown the final product is truly impressive.
After seeing one side of the board, time to see the other. The exterior is no less impressive.
If you want , you can make room fot the box, because i0’s measures are 58x40x15 cm, a good big box.
Well, that’s all for now, I hope you have liked what you have seen as much as I have. I will return shortly with more stuff and news for you. We hope it will continue to be positive.
The end is finally in sight, however it is possible that the boxes and board we see as printers preview and not production copies. However it looks like Gamezone is getting their product, or at the very least has settled on a print contract.
With a bit of luck they will get the cardboard components in their warehouse soon and then shipping will not be far away.
I'm not 100% convinced by the lime green second side of the board or the style of some of the top batch of cards, but the rest actually looks brilliant. There's something about finally seeing a board for a boardgame that actually makes it feel real at long last.
Talking to my 'Bothan spies' at Salute yesterday I gleaned a little new information on the HeroQuest progress.
It was reported that Gamezone has run out of the backers money, but the project continues on the backs of sales of regular Gamezone products. Essentially Dionisio has channeled all the output from Gamezone into project completion. Cashflow is now the single biggest hurdle and Gamezone work on Heroquest as and when sales from Gamezone accrue funds. This shows desperation, but it also shows dedication. As it was exclaimed to me yesterday, if this project was abandoned it would have happened already, Gamezone are in fact channeling all their current profitability into completing Heroquest, and it is believed they were seriously trying to do so as quickly as possible without sacrificing quality.
Dionisio himself is very rarely available for contact, and not primarily due to avoidance (though I suspect that is also a factor) but because he relegates himself to factory duty to eliminate as much of the overheads as possible; and yes everything Gamezone themselves could achieve towards the project has now long been done, bar the final box packing and shipping.
to me that means that those who have already fully paid for the product and shipping costs are basically waiting for others to give game zone their custom in order to fulfill that debt to the original backers.
I told myself long ago that I would buy this only once it hits the status of "now available for purchase", but I get the feeling if I order it from Spain that I am still taking a huge risk in not receiving it.
I know game zone has been operating for quite a few years now, so they aren't exactly new. But I don't have a ton of faith if I fork over my ducats that I would be receiving the game. So close, yet so far.
Preordering Heroquest is likely not the best move right now. However Gamezone do have other miniatures to sell, and are worth buying from.
I went to that particular stand a Salute looking to find heroes for my Dark Elf and Vampire Counts armies, I was not disappointed, and I could have had nice units too. they also do a very good range of Bretonnians but I bought all those that I wanted long ago.
to me that means that those who have already fully paid for the product and shipping costs are basically waiting for others to give game zone their custom in order to fulfill that debt to the original backers.
I told myself long ago that I would buy this only once it hits the status of "now available for purchase", but I get the feeling if I order it from Spain that I am still taking a huge risk in not receiving it.
I know game zone has been operating for quite a few years now, so they aren't exactly new. But I don't have a ton of faith if I fork over my ducats that I would be receiving the game. So close, yet so far.
It's also possible that GZ will fulfill retail orders first (including pre-orders), only shipping to backers once they have enough money. Palladium did this with Robotech, to the point where some retailers were even selling product at clearance while backers didn't receive their shipment yet. IIRC, Retailers can obligate their suppliers to deliver product within a certain time period. Crowdfunding creators typically have no such (enforceable) obligation to their backers.
Another obstacle American backers may face is Moon Design's trademark on HeroQuest, and possible (though they have not acted) action by Hasbro to protect their IP, including "look and feel", such as the box cover art, board layout, and logo design. Lawyers cost money, and I doubt GameZone has much of it to defend its product in the United States. And, yes, even if they have a case, it will cost them money.
Only when the game appears on your store shelves or in the American OLGS catalog would it be safe to purchase the game, even if its costs more. You may also want to read reviews of the gameplay itself and its components before ordering it, since GameZone is not known for its game design, development, or playtesting. The Conan boadgame by French company Monolith had various translation errors in the rulebook and cards, and, while they offered a corrected rulebook, they have not offered the same for cards.
I'm well aware of the legal situation surrounding rights, trademark and copyright in the united states. Many armchair lawyers on bgg debated this ad nauseum.
To which I don't really care. And will have nearly zero effect on importing it, should a consumer so choose to purchase.
I'm more worried about the practical ramifications, rather than the legal. I import stuff from abroad all the time, even though it is deemed illegal due to agreements per country. They really do have little effect beyond making it inconvenient to purchase.
If you buy it from Gamezone you buy it in Spain, where the licence is legal and where you pay in Euros.
Licencing issues are NOT smuggling, so something that is infringing rather than illegal can be purchased from abroad and imported as your personal property.
However a retailer cant import the same way, as they will be reselling items where the IP is contested. This assumes Moon Design or Hasbro move on this at all.
So long as HQ25 is made of plastic resin and not cannabis resin, and are legal for sale in Spain, then the game is a civil IP francgising issue which only effects sale in the US, not ownership of personal copies by Americans.
It is however enough of a grey area that purchase in the US is risky. For those in the UK we are protected by EU law, for now, and have the de facto right to buy in Spain.
Okay, let me know how the imports go. I'm perfectly willing to experiment with other people's money.
Also, of course, the shipments may be faster than any legal activity. I doubt Hasbro's going to care if GZ backers get their games or not. They'd be more interested about the IP itself.
ced1106 wrote: Okay, let me know how the imports go. I'm perfectly willing to experiment with other people's money.
I am not experimenting, US backers are. Even if Moonzone Design is just bluster and threat its dangerous bluster and the law is always a two edged sword, it also answers to the biggest chequebook more often than not, which means Hasbro ca get more 'justice' than the case may deserve.
I have never placed this in any category except 'highly risky' for US backers, and we have had this conversation before, back when you were assuming Gamezone were conmen.
However EU law is something else, it's more concrete and it involved de facto consumer rights. We know the goods are legal in Spain and the materials themselves do not infringe. so EU backers should be safe because of free trade rights. The Uk can pass criminal legislation banning products available elsewhere in the EU, but civil claims cant block sale by EU citizens from a member state wherein the goods are legally sourced. So if Hasbro objects in Uk courts that can effect retail in the UK, but not backers because we have a right as an EU citizen to do business in Spain. It also doesn't prevent end users from buying the game from Gamezone webstore from anywhere in the EU post release. It is technically risky for UK backers now because of Brexit, if the project is yet unresolved in two years, I cannot write that possibility off and it represents my only departure from my earlier position. However if this project is still unresolved in 2019 Brexit will be the least of the problems HQ25 backers have.
The likelihood of imports to the US from game zone being embargoed are nearly non existent and would require the customs agents opening every single package from them to ensure no heroquest gets through.
And even then, one would simply purchase from another source that may have them available in Europe and customs efforts are for naught.
So practically impossible to effectively enforce. Like I said, there are always ways around these things, making it merely inconvenient for the end consumer to obtain, rather than impossible or even improbable.
This position is due to the legal source of the items.
The US companies opposing Gamezone can only claim they are grey market goods at best, assuming they convince the US courts they should be considered infringing at all.
However Moon Design have gone on record threatening backers, saying goods will be banned in the US and backers may face civil or even customs penalties.
This is also the 'official' line at BGG to the point that those who say different face repeated bans on thin technicalities.
Late Edit: careless typo 'UK' instead of 'US', corrected and highlighted in bold.
If Hellfury or anyone else in the US buys this direct from Spain and it comes over in a cardbox box, it will have 'board games' or 'toy' marked on it. There is no way of stopping that from reaching the purchaser.
The only thing (which will be annoying as far as GZ, and fans of Heroquest, are concerned) is that it won't get a retail release and will reach so many fewer purchasers.
The threats against UK/EU backers are laughable, that guy needs to go and see a psychologist if nothing else.
Pacific wrote:The threats against UK/EU backers are laughable, that guy needs to go and see a psychologist if nothing else.
You may not see it in shops, but that's simply a matter of inconvenience for those who are determined.
*looks at polish version of Castles of Mad King Ludwig on my shelf with superior artwork to every other release made, that is supposed to be sold only in Poland because if licensing agreements*
Yeah, good luck stopping importation outside of domestic retail in shops.
I am in my office at work and currently surrounded by import Macross Valkyrie toys - toys that would be illegal to sell because Harmony Gold in the USA owns the rights to the designs. And they love suing people who they don't like.
And I bought them legally from companies that exist in the USA and from companies that exist abroad, and had them shipped to me.
But nobody cares.
And these are huge companies. Much, much larger than a guy in his basement playing Internet Tough Guy on a forum for... board games.
You can import whatever you want.
Moon Design will not do a single thing to a single person.
NOT double sourced this yet but according to what I see from http://heroquestforum.it it appears Dionisio went for a Chinese printer to get the cardboard components for HeroQuest. I am in two minds about that. Chinese manufacturers tend to rip off small productions, this could well happen here, like it happened for Rackham and for Catalyst. Gamezone might get gazumped mid production, or might find that quality takes a sudden nosedive. On the other hand it might happen quickly and well. In the long run Chinese printers are a bad idea, as you might want to ship stock but it will be up to a very disinterested Chinese print house whether or when you get it. But backers might get our components printer up and shipped reasonably quickly.
Any Italian speakers here please check out the forum, I gleaned this info through auto-translate, so caveats apply.
NEWS
A couple of backers went to the second warehouse of GZ and the results are the following,
'- There are two remaining pieces to be done, but everything has been finished (on miniatures and scenery)
- Packing will be made in Barcelona and shipping will be made from there as well.
- Printing materials have been ordered in March this year (we * suspect * printing is being made in China, hence the delay).
- Dionisio will ONLY inform through the official channel.
- No refunds will be made until the game is released. Then backers who request it could choose game or refund.
- No more visits allowed and no more statements will be made (only official ones)'
You should look at the context of that thread DaveC. Dionisio allowed another inspection because a group of Spanish backers claim to have have successfully sued Gamezone for refunds plus damages/costs.
Seeing the board and minis from this, I would be really interested in picking it up if it made it to a shop near me. But man, it's disappointing when the projects with the most hype and in many cases the most artistic talent, get delayed so long.
So.... Today is exactly 6 months since we heard anything from Gamezone. Has anybody found any information elsewhere recently? Or is it safe to assume, at long last, that this is dead and buried?
There's absolutely nothing out there Gamezone have gone totally silent. I've checked the usual places the French translator posted on BGG recently that he's still working on it and that an update is expected by years end but even his credibility has worn very thin at this point hence my reason for not posting it until summoned
Pacific wrote: DaveC - thanks for checking in any case, is appreciated!
I might try a direct email and some pleading, but othewise quite sad as it does sounds like this one might never see the light of day.
No problem. I've messaged GZ before including a change of address. The change of address was done straight away the others went unanswered so I know they are getting the messages they are just being selective in what they answer.
I wonder if this is a way to get some cash in. From a quick look around Gamezone have a lot of court actions pending against them and Spanish backers are starting to get refunds plus interest from these cases.
Do you think that makes it more or less likely that we might ever see the actual copy of the boardgame out to backers? (or from your impression of Spanish forums have most in Spain already given up on it, and are just trying to reclaim their money?)
Pink are dates at which actions have been presented in court against Gz
Orange was the supposed oficial presentation of the game in Comic-Con Madrid
As you can see the pink is getting ever greater as we go. Spanish backers of which there are a lot have far easier recourse to the courts than others so a lot of them are going that route now. They could well sink Gamezone before anything fulfilled practicularly if they have to pay interest on top of the refund. I read through the Spanish forum a week or 2 ago and the talk at this stage is mostly of refunds and legal action.
Saw this on BGG the source is the French Translator although I haven't located the original post but look news, rumours whatever are so thin on the ground something is better than nothing at all.
9 décembre 2017
"Après plusieurs jets, d'énormes modifications et tests, on a tout repris.
Je ne plaisantais pas pour la livraison du jeu : noël 2018.
Soit 4 ans et 10 mois à coup sûr sauf si GameZone Miniatures décide d'envoyer la boîte de base d'abord.
Dans ce cas, ce serait le second trimestre 2018.
D'ici peu, j'expliquerai ce que nous faisons avec l'autorisation de GZ."
"Je travaille dessus là et Dionisio écourte des descriptions de cartes du coup je dois les réintégrer soit dans le futur forum qui ouvrira ses portes soit dans le livre des règles dans la section appropriée. Je m'en sors mais j'ai l'impression depas avancer du coup bien que cela ne soit pasle cas. Courage courage ..."
December 9, 2017
"After several attempts, huge changes and tests, everything was back.
I was not kidding for the delivery of the game: Christmas 2018.
That's 4 years and 10 months for sure unless GameZone Miniatures decides to send the base box first.
In this case, it would be the second quarter of 2018.
Soon, I'll explain what we do with GZ's permission. "
"I'm working on that and Dionisio is shortening the card descriptions so I have to reinstate them either in the future forum that will open or in the rules book in the appropriate section. not to move forward even though this is not the case Courage courage ... "
Sure what's another year if legal action hasn't killed it already then it probably soon will.
The nugget of hope that I will see anything out of that keeps on shrinking
Me too.
I keep an eye open but to be honest will be surprised if we do every see anything out of this, and have chalked it up as a loss.
I've been fairly fortunate with other KS, this is the only big one I've lost out on (although as Alph says, it wasn't a KS - IIRC it was initially but was stopped because of the legal talk around the Heroquest RPG and the comments from that really angry guy that ran it. Then it switched to another pledge manager system, believe the Spanish one).
In any case, many thanks for DaveC for keeping the thread up to date with news there is
Message was only sent in Spanish, and legal action is only for Spanish law.
Good afternoon dear backers:
First, Lanzanos wants to apologize for the lack of communication during these months. We have been gathering information and making sure how we should act.
As you will already know, Dionisio and Gamezone haven't contacted us nor any media and of course they haven't contacted you either. After a brief investigation, we can say with near all likelihood that they will never send the rewards they promised.
During those months we have sent through our platform the proof of payment to those backers that asked for it. Not the receipt, as the receipt has to be sent by the project creator, but the proof of payment.
However, we would like to offer you different proposals:
A) Individual Complaints: Lanzanos will provide you with the tools and documents needed, so backers find easier to file individual legal action, so any backer holding these documents will be able to file a complaint, and being for amounts of money less than 900 euros, you won't need a lawyer nor a solicitor, making everything much easier.
B) Create an association of "victims of HQ25" and filing a group Complaint. Lanzanos would register at the AGPD (Spanish Data Protection Agency) a file in which you can fill up with your data so we would be the ones under responsability of making the payment receips and lawyering up for the legal procedure. In the link [insert URL here] you will be able to insert your name, surname, ID, and Lanzanos login so that we could make the payment receipts and the rest of paperwork to make everything easier. Once we have enough number of participants we are going to open a forum and [implement some] voting tools so we can act before the next 14 days maximum.
Thanks for sharing ced did that come through as an email? I haven't received it yet if so.
That's it then it's dead (not that it wasn't already but this officially kills it), guess I'll be opting for the class action option really can't be bothered going it alone. At least Lanzanos have stepped up and are willing to act on backers behalf now.
The other issue here is that you will only get back the funds that went through Lanzanos (less any fees) anything extra spent in the PM is gone.
EDIT: re your last edit - does that mean they will only act on Spanish backers behalf? leaving everyone else out of luck sounds more like what Lanzanos have been up to before alright they know non Spanish backers will have a much more difficult time pursuing them and it's easier to get a settlement for a smaller group of backers than everyone.
Sorry, I wasn't specific enough. AFAIK, It was only sent to Spanish backers and the assistance from Lazanos only pertains to Spanish law. Overseas backers are on their own.
More info on BGG, though there's a fair amount of "I told you so" going on. Myself, I didn't back because of the red flags, but learned more about resin production and that issues a project raises can indicate problems with management itself.
Having a quiet day at work I stumbled upon this thread and have pretty much gone through it from beginning to end in the last few hours, and it's been fascinating.
Like everyone else on here Hero Quest was a game I grew up playing and absolutely loved, I probably would have backed it too had I seen it all that time ago. fortunately I didn't but what a sad situation it's gotten to.
I've backed a few kickstarters and am aware there can be problems and delays but this has really opened my eyes to the crowdfunding risk. The initial excitement, the glimpses of miniatures, the drip feed of information, the increasing speculation and eventually the silence from the makers.
Hopefully the backers get some sort of resolution, and I'd also hope this doesn't cause Gamezone miniatures to fold as I suspect it probably will.
I've been following this on the Darkstone forums and one of the backers recently spoke to the Spanish press.
The TL DR bit - GZ are €67,000 in debt and are looking for more financing. They are being evicted from their warehouse in Seville on February 1st as they have outstanding rents of €18,000. They are trying to make 16,000 copies 6,000 owed to backers and retailers fronted the money for 10,000 additional units that puts individual backers even further down the list of "creditors". Apparently it's the dice that's holding up the project, the manufacturer claims they're done but Dionisio isn't happy with them and has rejected them a few times now.
Basic gist of the article as posted on th BGG thread
"They paid four years ago for a boardgame that they haven't received yet.[...] 50 people have already filed a legal complaint and many more are looking forward to do the same."
They interview a backer (Miguel) who says that "we paid 110€, after some years we were asked to pay shipping costs, we all paid shipping, and we're still waiting for the game"
The journalists don't mention the lack of Hasbro licensing, they directly assume GameZone was trying to publish the good old HeroQuest, they even show images from the old Hasbro commercial from the 80s.
Miguel explains how GameZone bought new machines without knowledge of how to use them and lost much material to miscasts.
"The owner of the company, located in Seville, does not answer any calls, but has still the game on preorder on the internet, so more people might have bought it. They worry that he's delaying everything in order for the case to prescribe."
and a newspaper article: (run through Google translate) - very well written and researched piece I learned some new stuff from this and it's a good summary of events and issues for anyone unfamiliar with this project.
Heroquest 25 Anniversary', the 'crowdfunding' of the board game that left five thousand people
With an initial departure date scheduled for December 2014 and a collection of 680,000 euros, the most successful project in Spain to date has not yet been delivered
JON SEDANOMalaga
Sunday, January 21, 2018, 09:47
" Patience, I only ask for patience ", repeats Dionisio Rubio several times during the interview of more than two hours offered to this medium. But the reality is that many patrons are already tired of waiting since in February 2014 the 'crowdfunding' of the board game 'Heroquest 25 Anniversary' achieved a collection of 680,037 euros. Its creator, under the brand name Gamezone, needed a financing of 58,000 euros for the project to see the light. The nostalgia and promises of numerous extra material made the figure reach 1100% of what was required. Now, with several demands on the table , many patrons do not know what has happened to the project. But to understand the current situation well, we must go back to 1989 .
At the end of the 80s, the company MB and Games Workshop launched the board game 'Heroquest' . In it, the essence of classic RPGs, such as 'Dragons and Dungeons', was transferred to the board. The success was resounding . Soon, many young people spent their evenings throwing dice and fighting enemies in what has already become a classic, to the point of paying large sums of money for him now. The years passed and the game only obtained a second edition and expansions published at the beginning of the 1990s. For this reason, the Gamezone company based in Seville , which has been producing miniatures since 2000, decided to launch a patronage campaign to revive it. "There was a rumble in the net , and as nobody was thrown, we decided to do it ", explains Dionisio Rubio.
The rights, an unexpected play
"I was surprised to see that the rights to the 'Heroquest' brand in Spain were in the hands of a private individual, not Hasbro." After taking them and contacting the parent company, he explains that they realized they could publish the game in Europe, but to do it in the US they had to negotiate with the one who had them in that country. "I thought the hard part was going to be dealing with Hasbro, but it was the easiest thing to do. It was a long process, but it paid off. The complicated thing was to negotiate with the possessor of rights in the US, who asked us for conditions that we could not face. In fact, here I realized why a new version of the game has not come out: it is difficult for Hasbro to want to do it when he can not publish it in his country of origin ".
With all this, they ventured to launch it on the crowdfunding platform par excellence , which is based in Canada, Kickstarter . On November 25, 2013, the 'Heroquest 25 Anniversary' campaign was launched for the first time and in just one day it exceeded 400% of the necessary funding . But soon everything would be darkened. Three days later, Kickstarter suspended the project in a precautionary manner due to an intellectual property dispute. The holder of the rights in the USA had sent a letter to the platformexplaining that he owned the brand in his country and that in August "he had explicitly denied Gamezone permission to publish it there", since he had intended to create one based on the license. According to Rubio, when he saw that they were not going to reach any agreement, he decided to abandon the project and go to a Spanish platform , more specifically to Verkami .
"Verkami volunteered and collected information for a week knowing that we were going to go to her. They saw that there was no legal problem and launched the project on December 8, "but four hours later, the platform canceled it. "It was due to pressure from the community. From day one we generated a lot of interest and a lot of people started a boycott campaign because they did not like the idea of playing the game. "
Send us the call for help
On December 23, 2013, "Heroquest 25 Anniversary" was reborn , although with less force than on the first occasion. Lánzanos was the platform that decided to give an opportunity to the project . "We do not accept or reject projects, unless it is something crazy, are the patrons themselves who choose whether they are born or not with their shares," says Gregorio Lopez, CEO of the platform. It also adds that they " never received any notice of infringement of rights in an official manner , but only the pressure of some users".
At the end, when the campaign ended on February 13, 2014, the collection obtained stood at 680,037 euros . Of that amount, Lánzanos stayed with 5% (approximately 34,000 euros) and Paypal with 3.5% for each payment. Even so, the platform saved an additional 2.5% "for what was behind the Heroquest" according to its CEO (an amount that Dionisio Rubio has now claimed through a bureaufax). In the words of Rubio, Gamezone received just under 600,000 euros.
The price of the game ranged from 60 to 110 euros . The most expensive option was chosen by more patrons, since with it, in addition to the game itself, many extras would be received. As for the delivery date, 'Heroquest 25 Anniversary' would arrive at the houses in December 2014. In the explanation of the project itself, it could be read: "The time window we have to carry out this project is close, but enough for us, with the funds that we can raise with this crowdfunding, we will be able to face the completion of the creative phase and the prototypes , to start producing the components throughout the first half of 2014. We have the knowledge and the tools, but not the capital, we lack the funds that we now request, with the adequate funds 'Heroquest 25th Anniversary' you can see the light in time for the Christmas of 2014. "But it was not so, in fact, its creator now mentions in the interview that" a game like this, in such a short time, has not served anyone. "
The castle in the air begins to collapse
Information about the state of the game began to diminish, something that usually happens in most projects. But in this case, they went from being daily to publishing only six more until the supposed delivery date, which already vanished in November under an update published on its website, Heroquestclassic.es. "People wrote and responded almost immediately during the campaign, sold the idea of constant updates, every two or three weeks and was receiving the money and not knowing anything about the issue, " recalls Angel Aguilar, who founded in June of that same year the Facebook group ' Quiero mi Heroquest 25 Aniversario ', which currently has 3,200 users.
In February 2015, a new update announced the beginning of the reservation period on its website, through which the base game could be purchased without the additional extras. The distributor of Germany and E-Minis , which is the one in Spain, took several thousand units, of which they also advanced part of the money. In total, there would be 6,000 games for patrons and 10,000 for commercial sales. The rumors began to emerge in the network: "Dionisio had spent all the budget on machinery and had no more to continuethe project". But Rubio responds to this accusation: "That rumor is nonsense. Just click on the network to see that the cost of the six machines we bought to reinforce the one we had is absurd compared to the budget. What we did was to mechanize our workshop to be able to produce both the content of the patrons and the one we would take to the stores ".
So it was. Photographs published by those who approached the old workshop they had in Seville demonstrate the manufacture of miniatures. According to Dionisio, around one million units. But how is it possible that what was done in less than a year, three years after that date has not yet been delivered? Especially taking into account that the emails of the patrons who requested the return of the contribution in 2015, Gamezone answered with a refusal "due to the status of the project, almost completed." Rubio's explanation is that it was because of a restart of the project.
As they had already failed on the initial date, they decided to take the project more calmly to improve some components that did not have the quality they were looking for in a hurry. According to its creator, "the final product was going to be watched with a magnifying glass" and therefore all the components had to be as perfect as possible. For E-Minis, the problem of the 'Heroquest 25 Anniversary' has been "a bad planning for wanting to offer so many things at such a low price and of such good quality" . "We've seen it, that's why we always tell people to leave them alone so they can continue with the project," adds the distributor, who also specifies that today, they continue to receive cancellations and new reservations every day.
Anyway, the game still did not arrive and the trickle of updates caused a group of sponsors to send a bureaufax requesting information about the real state of the project in December 2015.
The dream turns into a nightmare
"Lánzanos tried to get rid of the dead man. His idea in principle was to help, but he did it all in a very 'light' way and he stayed in the water of booze. Right now there is the promise in time that they are going to do something. They said to create an association to move the legal issue but had to put money, "adds Aguilar.
Indeed, Lánzanos sent a statement to all the patrons, only two years later, in April 2016 . In this email they apologized for their silence and added that they would head the decision that the patrons would make. A survey was conducted and the vast majority chose to request information. The second burofax, now on behalf of the platform requesting information about the real state, reached Dionisio. But I did not succeed. In the last communication sent by Lánzanos, in July 2016, it was explained to the patrons that his lawyer was preparing a complaint. Complaint that never came to court .
"We have not filed the complaint because the lawyers advised us not to do it , because we were going to lose it. They are the patrons who have to denounce, not us. They have complied with us because we charge our share of the income, "explains Gregorio López, who adds that" it may sound selfish not wanting to move the hornet's nest, but every time he did it, they called 200 people over the phone. "
The CEO explains: "There is no jurisprudence, the most similar is that of ticket sales companies . By judicial means Dionisio can be defended, but by the civil way the law of the trade allows to request the money if the game does not leave or it does not look like the promised thing. In 'crowdfunding' there is talk of investing in an idea , of making someone's dream come true, even if VAT is paid, it is an investment . They consider us as an 'online' store that delivers a product expanded over time. "
The average of failed patronage is around 10%, according to López, but "since most projects are small and invest in friends and family, nothing happens". It also clarifies that they are a platform to connect creators with patrons , but that beyond that, they have no responsibility. The lawyer Chema Valdivia explains that Law 5/2015 for the promotion of business financing, which includes a regulation on investment sponsorship, does not include crowdfunding: "Its scope refers to financing in exchange for a monetary return, not in exchange for a delivery of movable property, as in this case a game. Some argue that it is a risk, such as a work of art or a stock market investment, but it is more like a sale to put a product on sale. The problem, in addition to the law, is that in Spain there are no precedents . "
A new rumor began to spread through the network: "'Heroquest 25 Anniversary' was a scam, it would never come out . " But the photos of the updates and the opinions of the patrons and distributors who had gone to the store said otherwise. The miniatures existed and the state of the game seemed to be advanced, but it still did not arrive. "Whether or not a scam has to be decided by a judge, but there must be fraud in order to have a scam. Has Dionisio intended to defraud patrons? It is very difficult to know . You have to see what the money has been spent on, whether it was in machinery or in a Mercedes, and if everything is due to mismanagement or an intention to cheat, "explains Valdivia.
Slash and new text
The user Jul SG, tired of waiting, presented on September 27, 2016 a verbal trial suit against Dionisio Rubio , Gamezone and Ludofilia SL, the latter a new company that the creator established two months after concluding the campaign. "They did not offer any information and that angered me. They have given false hopes and have played with the illusion and nostalgia for a product that many wanted. In the bases they established that the conditions of the project were going to be fulfilled, but they have not done it. I tried it by mail, OCU and in the end, judicial means ", explains the patron. The ruling was resolved in favor of the user and forced Dionisio Rubio to have to deliver the game in six months or return the money , the latter being what happened.
From that moment, Jul SG became champion of the patrons for winning a court ruling and getting the money . "I have continued to help because it is only fair. People say that the subject is very complicated or that it will cost more than the product to claim, but it is not true: investigate, worry about advising and you will see that it is not so. I do not position myself in favor of getting the money or waiting for the game, I am in the middle ground. As I investigated the subject for myself and I see people very lost, I help them by solving doubts and explaining what steps they have to follow, with examples of the writings to be presented. "
But Jul SG indicates that during the process modifications have been made in the bases of both : "Lánzanos explained in its conditions that if a project did not reach the patrons, they 'would be forced to intervene', but after starting the problems erased that part, in addition to a variation of 110 euros in the collection. Dionisio Rubio sold the product as Gamezone, although he did it under his NIF, but when he created Ludofilia SL and started to manage through it Heroquest, judicially he had to sue the three names to avoid mistakes ".
The CEO of Lánzanos responds to this statement by saying that the concept of 'intervening' is very ambiguous and that they modified the bases simply by updating themselves . Dionisio Rubio points out that the creation of Ludofilia SL does not interfere with the game, although in the copyright of the website heroquestclassic.com one can read "Ludofilia SL 2013 - 2016". The year 2013 would encompass the 'Heroquest 25 Anniversary' campaign, but on that date the limited company had not yet been set up. In addition, according to Jul SG, some patrons received from Rubio a reply to his claim arguing that the sentence should go against Ludofilia SL, not against him.
With a new official delivery date, March 2017, a rhythm of constant updates during 2016 and the presentation of the game during the Expocómic event in Madrid that took place at the end of 2016 , it was demonstrated that the project was continuing. Of course, many patrons complained that the quality of some components, such as letters, was not what was expected. But March passed and the game did not arrive.
It is not a question of accounts, but of dice
If to date two lawsuits had been filed by judicial means, in 2017, with the facilities that SGSG contributed, the number exceeded 30. The Francisco García from Malaga is one of those affected who filed a claim in July of that year: " I spent about 150 euros. I still have not recovered the money for an error in the courts, but I'm waiting for them to call me when it's resolved. After the experience I have the feeling that they are laughing at me and that Dionisio can do and undo what he wants . Another responsible has also been Lánzanos, who has not moved a finger for the patrons, has made a mere intermediary and over came to ask for money to sue after raising a significant amount.
The rumor that Dionisio had spent all the money from the project for bad management and that he no longer had more liquidity to face the costs of logistics and shipping was gaining more and more strength. Especially when the network showed alleged accounts reports Ludofilia SL company , where you could see that it had a deficit of 67,000 euros . Also, an eviction order from his old warehouse in Seville cited for February 12, 2018 for a non-payment of 18,000 euros, did not help to silence them either.
" We have spent more money than we got , because the production is not only for the 4,500 games of the patrons, plus the 1,500 that we add later, but for the 16,000 that we will create in total. From the minute one that we saw that figure we raised a higher production and look for new financing, "explains Dionisio in an interview published on its website .
But what makes the project, which was to have finally come out in March 2017, still not arrive? Dice . As Dionisio explains, "if an element is missing and it is fundamental, it can not be sent, either the die or the top of the box". It adds that it is a technical problem, so "can not be solved with money, or with time, because money has been paid what had to be paid and time has been spent that had to be thrown, and even that is not solved, can not be sent ".
According to the Riera company from Alicante, responsible for producing that material, as well as the rest of the plastic components of the game, the technical problems have already been solved: "Everything that used to be cardboard was made of plastic. We have already packaged and shipped almost 80% of the production to Seville. From a year ago until now we have made a trial and error process with the dice. We have created everything from nothing and although technical problems arose, we have already solved them. Dionisio, they will say what they will say, but he is a very perfectionist man and if he has to throw a product four or five times back because he is not convinced by the finish, it does. It is a project that grew a lot in a short time. And I hope it does not take much longer. It remains to finish producing some small piece of last minute, but the final product will be spectacular and will enchant the public. "
The absence of these pieces, which from Riera confirm that they are already paid , also makes it necessary to produce everything concerning paper: "With printing there is no problem, it is simply a matter of choreography. Everything is printed when all the components are present, because it is a material sensitive to humidity and spoiling. It is also something that takes a lot. A space that neither I nor have the printer, who has a weekly production in which he prints and sends ".
Once everything is in Seville, the product will be packaged and sent, although that will be handled by another company , because according to Rubio "will go faster, more organized and without the stress they have".
Will the 'Heroquest 25th Anniversary' ever come to the patrons?
With all the cards on the table, or better said miniatures, will the 'Heroquest 25 Anniversary' finally shine? Its creator, the distributor and some patrons are clear that yes , although they do not know when exactly; others, on the other hand, believe that it will never come out, among which is the own Lánzanos. Jul SG, who has done an exhaustive follow-up of the project thinks about it: "Based on the statement of accounts, it is remotely possible. They are trying it despite having a negative balance higher than 60,000 euros, but you need people to distribute it, to send it, etc. ".
From the company Riera they affirm categorically that 'Heroquest 25 Anniversary' is going to come out and explain that the problems have come about due to their great scope, since "Gamezone competes with multinationals". Dionisio Rubio exemplifies what takes time on the network with a traffic jam on the road : "You are standing with the car in a caravan and instead of waiting you start whistling or shouting". Meanwhile, he repeats that "he only asks for patience" .
Absolutely agree... I mean, how wrong can they be?
Unless they are somehow completely the wrong shape or face number, or accidentally have the wrong numbers printed on them, surely could just let them go?
Rather than face not selling any at all.
Once again thanks for bringing this news here DaveC, appreciated.
-Each game has 8 dice (this was confirmed by Urok on the HQ25 Arouk Telegram), I estimated 8 dice x 16,000 copies = 128,000 dice. However, the number of dice made was around 300,000.
-They were still having discouloring issues, but the error affected only some copies, not all of them, so the cause was difficult to pinpoint. Also it forced them to trash big dice packs to avoid the risk of containing some defective dice.
-He defined Dionisio as a "perfectionist", with the certainty of a person who does not think about due dates or milestones or has no respect for deadlines. He just cared for Dionisio's demands and he responsably defended that his work had to be delivered in a perfect state.
-He had six people assigned exclusively for this task, wanting to finish in september to enjoy some vacation.
-He had received some payment for a deliver that included scenography. The deliver of dice still hadn't happened.
-Dionisio told him "there's no rush, there's no rush". I remind you this was in July 2017.
-He's company is specialist in shoemaking, but they also work with any injected plastic products and have experience with boardgaming components in an international (European) level.
-After all this journey, they won't get any benefit from all invested time, staff, materials... Costs = benefits. From July to November, when a person made public in twitter the second image I'm attaching... The only substantial change with dice was the green colored dye in the HQ side (instead of sharing the black color of the rest of the sides of the die). This was another decision by the perfectionist Dionisio that delayed all dice production until now (January 2018) and keeps adding months by asking us to be patient.
We can even have them delivered. Fething ship and let those with defective dice raise a customer service issue. As we are forwarned that dice quality may vary.
It would earn Gamezone a lot of forgiveness, and buy time for a perfectionist approach later.
If dice colouring means so much for the game, let gamers colour them. Some of the miniatures are multi material, resin with metal sword arms etc, because that was how best to make the game components. I must say this for Dionisio, when it comes to said components his artistic eye has a lot of merit, I have seen sample miniatures by request and an VERY impressed with the quality of pose and sculpt. This can still all be worth it.
Think on this. A resin character on a clear plastic base with a metal sword is asking for a paint job, even for basicplay. These are not single models in coloured plastic according to role as would be needed for the game to be playable straight from the box.
It would pay Dionisio to absorb that logic and move to its logical conclusion. The entire game needs painting, so why not the dice. It some of the sides are written in the rules as in green, we can ink in the symbols in green. As dice symbols are recessed and often painted anyway there is no issue with this in terms of maintaining the integrity of the die.
If a Spanish speaking Dakka member agrees with this point and it has not yet been made, can they forward it on my/our behalf.
"I was surprised to see that the rights to the 'Heroquest' brand in Spain were in the hands of a private individual, not Hasbro." After taking them and contacting the parent company, he explains that they realized they could publish the game in Europe, but to do it in the US they had to negotiate with the one who had them in that country. "I thought the hard part was going to be dealing with Hasbro, but it was the easiest thing to do. It was a long process, but it paid off.
It was easy in the sense that Dionisio is lying. He said that he contacted Hasbro's Ibana (sp) (or some Spanish or international branch of Hasbro) but produced no written document saying that he actually had permission.
According to Rubio, when he saw that they were not going to reach any agreement
GZ and Moon Design did not reach an agreement because GZ could not produce written documentation saying they had permission from Hasbro.
a lot of people started a boycott campaign because they did not like the idea of playing the game.
This is wrong. BGG did not like the idea of creating a game without permission.
We have the knowledge and the tools, but not the capital
GZ needed to buy resin spincasters and, since it was only Dionisio, they didn't have the workers who knew how to use them. The workers, btw, are owed 18K Euros.
But what makes the project, which was to have finally come out in March 2017, still not arrive? Dice .
Green dice???
-He defined Dionisio as a "perfectionist", with the certainty of a person who does not think about due dates or milestones or has no respect for deadlines.
Jul SG: "1st: In June 2017, I suggested to Dionisio by letter that both of us knew that he had quite a big debt of 1,920€, enough reason for him to move into the new workshop on the Arte Sacro business park. I mentioned this in the (now defunct) Telegram chat devoted to HQ25A of the Aurok Community. Urok asked Dionisio about this and he replied that "he had no f***ing idea".
Dem dice. 128K needed, 300K made, all rejected.
"The only substantial change with dice was the green colored dye in the HQ side (instead of sharing the black color of the rest of the sides of the die). This was another decision by the perfectionist Dionisio that delayed all dice production until now (January 2018) and keeps adding months by asking us to be patient."
"I was surprised to see that the rights to the 'Heroquest' brand in Spain were in the hands of a private individual, not Hasbro." After taking them and contacting the parent company, he explains that they realized they could publish the game in Europe, but to do it in the US they had to negotiate with the one who had them in that country. "I thought the hard part was going to be dealing with Hasbro, but it was the easiest thing to do. It was a long process, but it paid off.
It was easy in the sense that Dionisio is lying. He said that he contacted Hasbro's Ibana (sp) (or some Spanish or international branch of Hasbro) but produced no written document saying that he actually had permission.
You don't know that. Documentation in business is often confidential, and not to be disclosed to third parties. Also Hasbro is very big Hasbro corporate might not have approved of local decisions in Spain or possibly lack of action that resulting in Gamezone getting the trademark in Spain.
Worth keeping in mind that everything I posted is run through Google translate from the original Spanish so in a few parts the translation is going to be overly literal and not what Was intended in the original Spanish (remember the “battery” translation that caused confusion). A boycott because people didn’t like playing the game looks like a literal translation rather than what was actually intended.
However it is fair to defend Gamezone against accusations of deception. Despite evidence provided to the contrary, and lack of challenge to that evidence, some people are still calling out Gamezone as fraudulent as opposed to mismanaged.
Definitely mismanaged at this point, there is some physical product to show for the money invested. I honestly still think Dionisio wants to deliver this game but this perfectionism has to stop at some point you have to say that's it and send it, the dice issue is a prime example there was nothing wrong with black print on the HQ side it doesn't need green print. The hexagonal dice were a bad choice to begin with but I guess he wanted them so as to say "nope nothing like the original dice, my design, not copying anyone, look different dice different game, no copyright issues here".
The mounting debts and backer claims might well sink this before anything else.
Shipping is another issue that hasn't been addressed where is the money for that going to come from? Backers money is spent, retailers money is spent. I doubt most backers will want to put their hands in their pockets for more shipping after all the delays. If it gets to that point will they do another Prodos and only ship after they have raised funds from retail sales or require you to purchase something from the store in order to get your pledge tacked on. I'm pretty sure backers are due store credit for the original shipping amount paid as it is.
Orlanth wrote: Mood Design were not interested in starting any dialogue until they received documentation from Hasbro. Slight but significant difference.
We want to give some background on the dispute surrounding Gamezone’s Kickstarter campaign to launch a remake of the hybrid board game/roleplaying game originally published by Milton Bradley called “Heroquest”.
Last week, Moon Design petitioned Kickstarter to remove the crowdfunding campaign for Gamezone’s “Heroquest” game. “Heroquest” is the registered US trademark of Moon Design and is the name of our “Heroquest” roleplaying game and assorted products. To allow a game using the same name to be promoted in the United States through Kickstarter without a license would be an unacceptable dilution of our brand and create market confusion to our detriment.
The trademark “Heroquest” is registered by Francis Greg Stafford with the United States Patent and Trademark Office (Registration Number 4082281) for use in game book manuals. Moon Design Publications LLC has the exclusive license for use of that trademark. For some time now we have been working on creating a board game called “Heroquest” pertaining to the mythology of Glorantha and an updated version of our Heroquest roleplaying game.
The project by Gamezone, a Spanish game company, proposes to remake a role-playing/board game originally produced by Milton Bradley and Games Workshop in 1989. The project calls their game “Heroquest” which is identical to our registered mark and easily confused with it.
Gamezone initially asked us for use of the Heroquest trademark on July 31, 2013. The next day we asked them if they could provide us with a copy of any written agreement with Hasbro to produce a 25th Anniversary Edition of Hasbro’s board game. Gamezone did not provide us with any written confirmation (and as of this date still has not done so). On August 26, 2013, we informed Gamezone by email that we must decline their request.
Despite being explicitly refused permission to use our trademark, Gamezone went ahead and launched this Kickstarter. As a New York State corporation, Kickstarter is subject to US trademark laws and the use of our trademark in the campaign was a violation of those laws.We told Gamezone that they needed to immediately get a licensing agreement from us (which, among other things, would require that they pay us for the rights to the name since it would mean foregoing our opportunity to release our game using our trademark and to compensate us for that lost revenue).
Gamezone did not get back to us within the period we set, and rather than have this end up in litigation (which could also bring in other parties with IP at stake), we asked Kickstarter to suspend the campaign. We then spoke to Gamezone informing them that we had certain non-negotiable demands for any license agreement, among them a statement that Gamezone has explicit permission from Hasbro to make this game based on their IP. Gamezone has assured us that they can get such permission, but until we see confirmation, we cannot responsibly license our trademark to be used in this Kickstarter campaign.
We sympathize with the fans of the Milton Bradley game who enthusiastically supported this project. We strongly support Kickstarter and the revitalization of old games with a loyal following. However, such activities must be done with the consent of the trademark holder and of any other legal owners of the property.
Heroquest France has been to visit Gamezone at their new location videos, photos etc. may be incoming soon. Note HQFrance is the french translator and would be very pro GZ and Dionisio so keep that in mind when reading his reports, several things he's reported previously have not happened - now he might have been told them and reported them in good faith but something changed in the interim.
Translated from the original French
Back in French territory, my short stay in Seville was very pleasant,
Dionisio is extremely welcoming and it's really someone special, who, even if he continues to crack the pears, struggles the days like crazy with his team for a product that no one else in the game world will
deliver.HQ25 is indeed a collector and ultra limited edition of the game and it is above all an exceptional craft product by the quantity of material and the final quality of the product for the price that was proposed 4 years ago.
I will explain why and why all this is justified and I maintain that those who sold their pledge will regret it bitterly.
I was able to film almost everything of the new workshop which is, it must be said, huge!
Yes, shoot.
Dionisio has changed his mind about his policy of absolute silence. The time has come to show what has happened in four years.
So expect to see that there is no casino in Las Vegas, no gigantic property or luxury car and this will disappoint some because there are only pallets and pallets of elements everywhere .
Whole lockers, stored and sorted, stacks of items, bags, prototypes of cards, cards, print samples here and there, in short that every cent was invested in the production.
Also know that the local press finally contacted Dionisio and therefore a more professional report will be shot soon. This is a bit normal since it is one of the biggest projects ever funded in Spain and attracts the attention of many.
My surprise was to discover another juxtaposed depot filled with pallets of elements.
I could also manufacture myself (in 30 seconds, yes 30 vi vi vi) figurines HeroQuest metal, see the process (from 3D to the realization of master resin, then the use of molds in 6 machines, mold & drying, sorting phase, quality, piles of usable waste (metal) or unusable (resin). A strong focus on quality has emerged from all this.
of course, The gigantic box of games has a lot of surprises, such as additional cards, extra new figurines, and I was able to see the final design that is kept like Roswell's UFO and discover many things that Dionisio was kept to show until then.
In short, the time to ask myself and work on videos, to see with colleagues for foreign subtitles and I will give you a taste.
In any case, from Isabel through Cristina or even Rafa and his 2 friends I was really pleasantly surprised.
The visit was more than fruitful since I was able to put in place with Rafa, in charge of setting up the final design, many points to deliver the best French version. We exchanged, compared & corrected, shared our points of view, consulted Dionisio live to get his approval and even found innovative ideas to surprise more than one.
It seemed more than necessary to meet after 4 years of collaboration at a distance and to voice the suggestions and comments.
Best news I have heard in a long time, its confirms the half good half bad scenario which was where I thought we were at..
Gamezone is trying its best to get this to us guys. However sadly some things could have been better organised and there is a genuine risk that Gamezone might fold before the project is completed.
I am hopeful and worried in equal measure, so I tend not to things about HQ25 much. If it comes it comes.
But I have been lately thinking about what can be done to help. Anyone from Dakka up for a busman's holiday to Spain for a week? A thought exercise at present as to what we might do, until we find if we can actually help.
Original French version if anyone wants to do a better translation
Spoiler:
De retour en terres françaises, mon court séjour à Séville fut très agréable.
Dionisio est extrêmement accueillant et c'est vraiment quelqu'un de spécial, qui, même s'il continue de s'en prendre plein la poire, se démène tous les jours comme un fou avec son équipe pour un produit que personne d'autre dans l'univers du jeu ne livrera.
HQ25 est bel et bien une édition collector et ultra limitée du jeu et c'est avant tout un produit artisanal d'exception de part la quantité de matériel et la qualité finale du produit pour le prix qui avait été proposé il y a 4 ans.
J'expliquerai pourquoi et en quoi tout cela se justifie et je maintiens que ceux qui ont vendu leur pledge vont le regretter amèrement.
J'ai pu filmer quasiment tout du nouvel atelier qui est, il faut bien le dire, énorme !
Oui, filmer.
Dionisio a changé d'avis sur sa politique du silence absolu. Le temps est donc venu de montrer ce qui s'est passé en 4 ans.
Attendez vous donc à voir qu'il n'y a pasde casino à Las Vegas, pasde propriété gigantesque ou de voiture de luxe et cela va en décevoir certains car il n'y a que des palettes et des palettes d'éléments partout.
Des casiers entiers, rangés stockés et triés, des piles d'éléments, de sachets, des prototypes de cartes, de fiches, des échantillons d'impression ça et là, bref que chaque centime a été investi dans la production.
Sachez aussi que la presse locale a finalement contacté Dionisio et donc qu'un reportage plus professionnel va être tourné d'ici peu. C'est un peu normal puisqu'il s'agit là d'un des plus gros projets jamais financés en Espagne et qui attire l'attention de beaucoup.
Ma surprise a été de découvrir aussi un autre dépôt juxtaposé rempli également de palettes d'éléments.
J'ai pu par ailleurs fabriquer moi-même (en 30 secondes, oui 30 vi vi vi) des figurines d'HeroQuest en métal, voir le process (de la 3D à la réalisation du master résine, puis l'utilisation des moules dans les 6 machines, démoulage & séchage, la phase de tri, de qualité, les tas de résidus exploitables (métal) ou non exploitables (résine). Un accent très fort sur la qualité s'est dégagé de tout cela.
Bien entendu, la boîte du jeu qui est gigantesque comporte tout un tas de surprises, comme les cartes additionnelles, des figurines supplémentaires inédites offertes. J'ai pu voir le design final qui est gardé comme l'ovni de Roswell et découvrir beaucoup de choses que Dionisio s'était gardé de montrer jusque là.
Bref, le temps de me poser et de travailler sur les vidéos, de voir avec les collègues pour les sous titres étrangers et je vous livrerai déjà un avant-goût.
En tout cas, d'Isabel en passant par Cristina ou même Rafa et ses 2 compères j'ai vraiment été agréablement surpris.
La visite a été plus que fructueuse puisque j'ai surtout pu mettre à plat avec Rafa, en charge de la mise en place du design final, de beaucoup de points essentiels pour livrer la meilleure version française qui soit. Nous avons énormément échangé, comparé & corrigé, partagé nos points de vue, consulté Dionisio en direct pour avoir son aval et même trouvé des idées innovantes pour en surprendre plus d'un.
Il apparaissait plus que nécessaire de se rencontrer après 4 ans de collaboration à distance et d'exprimer de vive voix les suggestions et remarques.
I must say it will be lovely looking game if it ever gets released! I don't recall there being fences before and I'd like a close up of that plastic sprue
Plus a small update (on his visit)
So to show a part, yes I can do it shortly
introduce the French prototype in the salons, toy libraries and surroundings also
.. Metal and resin This way you will compare
this besides the object of my future plans, to present to you in details and in video all the elements of the finished
game.I miss the cards of monsters and the 16 characters whose design we finish with Rafa.By
mid March this should be printed and ready to present,
I finished editing the video part 2 (the visit at GZ) this morning, and tomorrow I'm playing subs and some audio covers that I send to the team for translations.
I really want everyone to understand what is said and I do not wish to, contrary to what some people think that the update is broadcast on a private channel. Similarly, the local Spanish television will broadcast its report but it will also appear on the official game page.
Original French version in case of dodgy translation
Spoiler:
Alors pour montrer une partie, oui je vais pouvoir le faire d'ici peu.
Présenter le prototype français dans les salons, ludothèques et alentours aussi
En métal et en résine. Comme ça vous comparerez.
C'est d'ailleurs l'objet de mes futures plans, vous présenter en détails et en vidéo tous les éléments du jeu finis.
Il me manque les fiches de monstres et des 16 personnages dont nous terminons le design avec Rafa.
D'ici mi mars cela devrait être imprimé et prêt à présenter.
J'ai fini le montage de la vidéo part 2 (la visite chez GZ) ce matin. Demain j'attaque les subs et quelques reprises audio que j'envoie à l'équipe pour les traductions.
Je tiens vraiment à ce que tout le monde puisse comprendre ce qui se dit et je ne souhaite pas contrairement à ce que certains pensent que l'actualisation soit diffusée sur un canal privé. De même, la télévision espagnole locale va diffuser son reportage mais il figurera aussi sur la page officielle du jeu.
So the cage is done, that was according to an earlier report the only unproduced terrain component, once we see the Drakks we can be sure that ALL the miniatures are completed.
We have been play testing it to death. My demo team has died so many times now they hate me and I need new sacrifices to appease the Tentacles of the Abyss.
otherwise, the game is on track to be finished very shortly. The printing is about to wind down and the small problems with the dyeing of the Dice is finally all sorted out, all of the miniatures are finished bagged and ready. So once the material from the printers arrives we will be boxing everything up and sending it out. I cannot give you a date as of yet but we are looking at a very short wait from here.
Thank you very much for your patience we wholeheartedly appreciate it.
Slinky wrote: I seem to remember paying shipping on the GZ website a few years ago, hopefully they remember that too!
Automatically Appended Next Post: Found it - Thu, Jul 3, 2014
It is very common for crowdfund projects to blow all the funds including shipping on the development. Gamezone is not the only company to fall foul of that, a number have including ons that were uptill then doing very well. Hawk Wargames lost it's independence because of this quite recently, they found they couldnt ship and had used all the funds, now Dave Lewis is just a designer in someone else's company.
Given GZ have burnt through backer funds, further investor funds and have outstanding debts I doubt there is anything left for shipping at this stage.
They'll either have to ask backers for more (and I'd want to see palette upon palette of finished games ready to ship before I'd even consider that) or they'll have to sell to retail to raise funds first but those investor funds came from retailers who are owed stock as well so that market might be limited.
EDIT:
Also small tidbit from Darkstone the Italian translators have confirmed they are finished but other language teams are not, apparently they have until Monday to get done (or provide an update to GZ).
If the Italian team are done that must at least mean all of the written stuff is finalised and just needs to be printed.
I am prepared if needs be to pay for shipping in return for stock added to the delivery. I have already done this anyway, all backers have.
It was one of Gamezones better ideas, backers get store credit equal to the shipping costs.
Like DaveC I would like to see the boxes before paying this, but as Gamezone has a lot of things worth buying I would be up for that.
I now also have to realistically wonder if delivery comes will it come before Brexit or not.
There wont be a transition because things will go downhill fast over banking service exclusion, which is a large % of the UK economy.
We are looking at either a capitulation by the UK or a hard Brexit, I think the latter is more likely.
Which means we have until March 2019 for delivery. I think the product will be ready this year bar possible printing issues, however print is in China and they might price gouge which often happens to smaller clients. There will then be delivery times of print materials.
No release date yet for the update videos probably by the end of March - they are planning to release them in 5 languages (subtitles) so translation is taking some time. There is some information about them on Darkstone.
The video I've seen, takes about 16 minutes Among other things, I translated subtitles think it's just the first part.. There should be a second
I think that only the second video (the one I have not seen) is the interview. The first is an overview of the new plant (it exists!) With machines, miniatures, boxes, prototype, etc.
I translated the subtitles but before watching the movie, so I could not see the image associated with the words I was translating, but it is good or bad, we have intuited that you get to see the entire production line.
As for if they're kidding us, guys, honestly, I do not know what to think. I see things that are there, others that are missing, there are things that we translate, others that are still missing. I put my soul in peace to wait again, after everyone does what they want. "
So for the dice, indeed the problem seems settled. But before jumping for joy, he prefers to wait 2 weeks to see the first deliveries what results and I understand it well. After the release of the update, I will explain a little more about it.
He received the video files and all the subtitles yesterday, to him to act now for the update.
Problem also set for the walls in ruins which were to be delivered on clusters (to detach therefore).
In the end, the elements are already detached in the box.
I confirm that the new models of Zargon & Morcar as well as the Vampire have been finished.
We'll do a comparison later on elsewhere.
the update is planned for ... next week
Spaniards will also be able to discover the game in the E-Minis stores, distributor of the game on the Spanish territory since they will receive the set of demo with the definitive elements for anyone to test it.
Ditto for Germans through Gamezone Miniatures Germany
Orlanth wrote: now Dave Lewis is just a designer in someone else's company.
What a strange way to put that. He said on multiple occasions now that he wanted to get out of managing a business, as it took 60 hours a week and left none to do what he truly wanted to do, which was actually work on his his games. "Just" a designer? He's "just" living his dream now, instead of getting ulcers.
Orlanth wrote: now Dave Lewis is just a designer in someone else's company.
What a strange way to put that. He said on multiple occasions now that he wanted to get out of managing a business, as it took 60 hours a week and left none to do what he truly wanted to do, which was actually work on his his games. "Just" a designer? He's "just" living his dream now, instead of getting ulcers.
It's true nonetheless, it was his company, his game, now it is someone elses.
He had the choice to hire a manager and be the designer while still being owner.
Sat 31 Mar 2018 14:07
I just translated the text of the update and sent it to the Kraken.
Dionisio sent it to me because I had no news from the Kraken and it worried me especially with the Easter weekend.
So for the videos, I will come back to it in more detail.
An open the box in June I do not think very seriously.
As Donatien pointed out just above, the game was due out last year.
We hurry for nothing: Dionisio evokes it in the interview, the game has been delayed because of poor quality productions on several things including a main element. I also witnessed the same day of my visit something else which I will share later.
Dionisio should have updated in December and it did not happen. But this delay has benefited
- changes to hero and monster cards with the addition of descriptive texts
- tests and changes / revisions of character abilities
- review of adventures
- the addition of content for the back of the screen (which was not planned but adds a value)
- adding an additional heroic card deck with a new heroic rule that I'm still waiting for
- the change of certain figurines
- the addition of surprise figurines
- changing the heroic rules as a whole (which I'm still waiting for!)
As soon as I have the date and time I warn you here.
Nothing new and he’s deliberately evasive on the shipping issue other than “close” and “soon”. Basically he’s waiting on the redone dice which are due in May if they are good then he OKs the printing and China do their thing (but not before the dice are approved). When all the parts are ready they go to a 3rd party who will assemble all the boxsets and ship them to backers. Every country will ship simultaneously (more or less). No word on how they will afford to ship a box that size and weight.
Realistically if dice are OK in May your looking at 2 - 3 months for China to do the printing and ship them then what a month to assemble 16,000 boxsets? I’d give it another 6 months assuming there are no other issues.
Some other bits
10,000 extra anniversary boxsets for retail.
130,000 dice needed for backers copies alone
After that HQ classic cheaper with card tokens
All elements available after release from GZ in both metal and resin versions.
Dice issue isn’t costing GZ anything extra as redos are contracted for.
The dice that GZ received are in bags of 2000. But the symbols are different and also had a problem of color and inks.
You can zoom in to see it. The manufacturer has sent some new ones but they always had the same problem.
GZ has decided to only make the white dice and after asking for the symbols to a company in Barcelona.
The day of my visit they had a message from Barcelona: the dice were not perfect ...
Since February, the problem has finally been resolved!
Those pyramids fit into the stone golems/statues (no idea what they do rules wise)
I'm glad I have all the parts of the original game other than the minis/furniture GZ seem to be over complicating things HQ was always a simple entry level game it doesn't need all these added rules, fancy dice etc.
Those pyramids fit into the stone golems/statues (no idea what they do rules wise)
The French guy on the video says they are different effects that the GM can trigger during his turn (I assume something like "all monsters move one extra square" and so on).
The dice that GZ received are in bags of 2000. But the symbols are different and also had a problem of color and inks.
You can zoom in to see it. The manufacturer has sent some new ones but they always had the same problem.
GZ has decided to only make the white dice and after asking for the symbols to a company in Barcelona.
The day of my visit they had a message from Barcelona: the dice were not perfect ...
Since February, the problem has finally been resolved!
Six kilos is a lot for postage. I was looking at the Royal Mail international business parcel shipping rates, even if we were to generously halve the £4.35 per kilo it would cost from the UK it is still probably about 15 euro per package, likely more. I see why Dionisio needs to clear the extra 10K copies.
As for the dice it was an aesthetic problem, one of the ends should have been a different colour. Frankly Dionisio should not have been too picky, its unfair on the manufacturer. The rejected dice look fine so long as the symbols are accurate and they roll true.
Those pyramids fit into the stone golems/statues (no idea what they do rules wise)
It was mentioned long ago, and the design has changed, before it was three different heads. From memory the Golems have three modes, magic mode, resilient mode and attack mode. The latter two are both melee variants but with emphasis on damage or defence. magic mode presumably has a ranged effect, don't know any more and part of the above is supposition on top of stuff I read back in about 2015, but its broadly so. The article on golems is buried in the Gamezone developer diaries if anyone wants to check.
The pyramid might be a D4 that you roll and take the bottom result (insert the top as rolled into the golem) in which case there is now a fourth mode, or one mode appears twice. If so I think its a design improvement, fewer components and marrying up the different modes along with the means to generate them.
I'm glad I have all the parts of the original game other than the minis/furniture GZ seem to be over complicating things HQ was always a simple entry level game it doesn't need all these added rules, fancy dice etc.
I like what they have done with it with the rules as seen. There is a lot of novel stuff in this game. I wish they had done their own modular dungeonbash, there is enough room in the genre for another.
more on the dice issue it appears that the ink wasn't getting into the recesses of the etched dice so they're changing to printed dice to solve it. Looking at the images on the rejected dice they are too complex to ever get a proper coverage in the recesses.Etched dice is preferable to printed so they should have gone for simpler images.
Madness, they could have sold the etched dice uninked. The game is not an open and play box, you need to paint and assemble everything. We could have inked the dice ourselves.
interesting to note that Hasslefree minis have obviously got a decent amount of new gamezone stock as they're advertising it in their pre-salute email
(no not the heroquest stuff, calm down folks, just the stuff below)
which is good to see as the more money Gamezone makes selling their other stuff the more chance there is of this actually getting completed (and this is the first evidence of it I've seen for a while)
Orlanth wrote: BGG will ban you on trumped up technicalities if you are positive to Gamezone at all. The dialogue is only allowed one direction of travel.
*Shrug* the moderation is pretty poor there. Octavian needs to be removed as a moderator as Frazzled was removed as a moderator here.
But that's probably a good idea for any site. You get people playing good for 20 years, they get too comfortable and their judgement suffers.
On topic, I wonder how the design will fare in comparison to the original. Dungeon saga is pretty much a heroquest clone, and it's dire. One of my few board game purchase regrets.
yea, I was super bummed about Dungeon Saga, sold it off cheap to a friend so he could paint it up for DnD and other RPG stuff.
Now that HQ29 is almost here, I'm getting curious. I don't know if any of my friends will be picking up a copy. Wonder if any copies will enter retail in the US? Last I heard there were some copy write/ name issues - does anyone know if they plan to sell copies in the States?
pancakeonions wrote: yea, I was super bummed about Dungeon Saga, sold it off cheap to a friend so he could paint it up for DnD and other RPG stuff.
Now that HQ29 is almost here, I'm getting curious. I don't know if any of my friends will be picking up a copy. Wonder if any copies will enter retail in the US? Last I heard there were some copy write/ name issues - does anyone know if they plan to sell copies in the States?
Regardless of the fuss that Moon Design puts up and whines about the usage of the word "HeroQuest", well, the fact is, anyone can import it, no matter what it is called.
I can imagine a couple of my buds may grab copies if available. The components are friggin' beautiful.
Just as long as you pick it up in Spain, you're good.
"According to Customs Directive No. 2310-011A dated January 24, 2000, "Customs officers shall permit any person arriving in the United States to import one article, which must accompany the person, bearing a counterfeit, confusingly similar, or restricted gray market trademark, provided that the article is for personal use and not for sale." Moreover, the Directive states that "Customs officers shall permit the arriving person to retain one article of each type accompanying the person." "
You're confusing things like Chinese knockoffs of Nike or "SORNY" televisions. Gamezone's HeroQuest is not anything like Moon Design's RPG, and the fact Gamezone owns HeroQuest trademark in Spain reinforces that. (Not that it would even matter, to be honest)
You can import basically whatever you want (that ain't drugs or bombs) in the USA (tax-free!)
It's the reason I can buy imported Macross Valkyrie toys despite Harmony Gold USA owning the US rights to the designs. I can order them on the internet all day long, from large companies established in the USA, or from companies that are not established in the USA, through Amazon and ebay and independent web-shops, and have them delivered from any location in the world to my doorstep, and Harmony Gold cannot do anything about.
Buying a board game from Spain called Hero Quest would get through US Customs 100% of the time, and if shipped through a global treaty recognized mail service, would be import/duty free. God bless the USA!
Now, you're arguing if customs has the authority, and here's what I found.
"1. Section 42 of the Lanham Act [15 U.S.C. Section 1124] and Section 526 of the Tariff Act prohibit the importation of goods which “copy or simulate” registered trademarks owned by United States citizens or corporations."
United States Customs Service Enforcement of Trademark Rights : http://www.npllptradelaw.com/us-customs-enforcement-of-trademark-rights
Moon Design believes that GZ's HQ25 is similar to their trademark. Of course, legal action would be pursued, but the burden of proof may be on the importer. "To allow a game using the same name to be promoted in the United States through Kickstarter without a license would be an unacceptable dilution of our brand and create market confusion to our detriment." : http://www.glorantha.com/background-concerning-suspension-of-gamezones-kickstarter-campaign/
Exactly - the CPB link agrees totally, especially as the consumer is the importer for personal and not commercial purposes.
Even then, I would expect a commercial importer to be able to exist. If Moon Design challenged it, they'd have an incredibly difficult time proving that GZ's HQ25 somehow created consumer confusion - GameZone could probably successfully argue the opposite! MD's RQ and HQ are virtually unknown compared to the popularity of the original MBHQ board game, hah!
That's neither here nor there, though, as Moon Design is run by a turd and won't do anything.
Legal threat is still a threat. Moon Design acted like C-words and decided to scare US backers promising legal action.
Importing grey market goods is not a crime, whatever Moon Design will like to scare US backers into believing. At most its a civil dispute. The goods have legal standing in Spain.
What US backers need to do is for the games to be sent through a reshipper who opens the boxes. An opened box, even once makes the product used, used grey market products become regular personal property. The restrictions apply to new packaged goods. Second hand goods to not qualify because any item can become second hand and be moved, or even sold after the legal licence of the product has expired. Both would end up a legal quagmire.
So for example West End Games held a Star Wars licence in the 80's, the current Star Wars miniatures/RPG gaming licence is held by Fantasy Flight, such licences are as expected expensive and litigiously guarded. However selling new or second hand West End Games items on eBay or bringing them across international boundaries is no violation of current licencing limitations.
Just about the only items that don't have a legal resale value, other than consumables are licenced software or underwear.
But they have placed enough of a block to get the KS project shut down, have threatened legal action if sales within the US are attempted and have threatened backers with nebulous threats, by claiming that backers may be civilly and criminally liable if they import copies of HQ25 from Spain. Inthe interveneing time they have said little to nothing else, but have not withdrawn or countered the threats against the backer community. The latter are extra-legal threats and are just a means of scarring backers and potential backers. It was reacted to with some anger by a portion of the backer community who could see that Moon Design had overstepped what it could actually achieve against backers. Hence why I have still not forgotten this.
Companies going after each other on IP disputes is common course, scaremongering customers with phantom threats of criminal action is beyond the fething pale.
Harmony Gold, for all its bad press and bile have never threatened Battletech players with criminal charges for having unseen mechs in their collection. Not that that would in any way work as a specific example, but you get the idea.
Let me find you the quote..........................ere we are, it kicks off on page 9 of this thread.
Just delurking to make it clear that GZ cannot legally ship to the US a product using the "Heroquest" TM and that US Customs will be notified. Please be aware that not only does US Customs destroy goods seized for violation of US Trademark law, but significant monetary penalties may also be assessed by US Customs for violations involving the importation of goods bearing counterfeit marks.
If GZ wants to rename their product something that does not use that trademark, that problem at least goes away. But unless they do, US backers (at least) should be aware that there is a good chance they will not get what they paid for (and that they have the risk of getting fined by US Customs).
Regards -
Jeff
Just to reiterate the legal threats are not accurate and targeted at the wrong people. 'Significant monetary penalties' is just a douche way of saying: 'If you back this rival game in the US you are a criminal, signed douche'.
Yes its just an internet post, but its an internet post from someone who was/is a Moon Design company executive which has already engaged in hostile litigation on this topic.
It's a real shame that this project has been so ridiculously bogged down. I would love to be able to purchase this game, but I am glad I stood back from the crowdfunding at the time. If it is ever available for purchase in the normal way I will be all over it.
And yes, this is a rather douchey move on their part, but it seems rather toothless.
Toothless is enough if its official looking and scary looking and uses names of heavyweight statutory bodies as placeholders for phantom enforcers. That's a lot of worry for some humble gamer and his hobby money to deal with. A threat of a legal bite and chewing out may or may not have teeth, but can customers afford to take that chance? And note it might be expensive to get oneself informed as to what is within the bite, legal representation is not free.
Which in turn is why I have not forgiven Moon Design. Its a step on the average joe who is in the way and only wants to play a game. IP legal threat and bluster is for corporations not customers.
They're claiming that they own the rights to the name here in the USA, have an RPG setting with the name (?) and are even planning on making their own boardgame called...Heroquest, presumably.
No it is not unreasonable, but any legal disagreement they have is with Gamezone, not backers.
No backer has commited any offence by backing the Lanzanos crowdfund or pre-ordering from the Gamezone website. And it is not a crime to transport their purchase.
So through Google Translate, I take it this e-mail I just received is asking for me to pay some other random group money to sue Gamezone?
As you know, four years ago and a half we pay money for the game HeroQuest 25th anniversary in Christmas of 2014. We are in 2018 a few months of legally prescribed obligation to Gamezone to give ourselves the game and thus keep our money without giving anything in return.
Many people have gone to court to get their money back and ... What's the surprise? buyers who have won the trial would not have recovered, because simply Gamezone and Dionisio are penniless what happened with more than 600 thousand euros?
Therefore, the association has created HQ25 affected and will certainly go to court so that the judge determined if there is crime and the legal consequences of this. The aim is that the request in this way the legal deadline restarts, and Dionisio is obliged to deliver the game.
If there were no game, we would be in a position to apply for the money, and if not, jail, plain and simple.
The method of action is under criminal law, and the only way to avoid problems is to give us the game (there will be no more excuses for delays) ..
NOTICE: We offer the opportunity to join the association to not lose your rights to the game. Registration will cost 13 €, to meet payments to the lawyer, the prosecutor and expenses of the association. After the December 1, 2018, if you have not become part of the complaint you will have certainly lost the rights to this, and GameZone has no obligation to give you anything.
NOTICE: We offer the opportunity to join the association to not lose your rights to the game. Registration will cost 13 €, to meet payments to the lawyer, the prosecutor and expenses of the association. After the December 1, 2018, if you have not become part of the complaint you will have certainly lost the rights to this, and GameZone has no obligation to give you anything.
This much is untrue at the least. After December 1st you may be cut off from registering for the class action, but regardless Gamezone still owes you your game.
Also, this is a registration fee, not entire costs. It will likely cost signatories more than this, and signatories may be committed to the further payments.
I would look at what you are signing if interested, especially carefully.
As August 16, 2018 has passed, it has now been four and a half years since the project was successfully funded on the Spanish platform Lanzanos.
However, the wait is still unsustainable for project supporters
and rumors are still going strong.
After meeting the Gamezone team in Seville last February to take stock,
I obtained permission to present the game in France. Much of the material has been sent to me and it is therefore with the agreement of GameZone Miniatures that I can now start a series of videos to unveil you step by step the game HeroQuest 25 Th.
What's shown off looks good but there is a lot of text and those cards and I fear they've taken a simple game and over complicated it at least Is till have all th orginal printed material and dice in case I want to run the original version as well.
As to the legal action there are already question marks about it - (looking for copies of passports in an unsecured way etc.) unless your in Spain probably best to stay out of it as €13 might only be the start and you still may have nothing to show for it at the end.
Yes. I have done many videos in French to present all the elements of the basic game.
I have seen that they have not understood what you said in the first video.
The only things that are different from what they will have in the box are:
- the board because it needed a very resistant as I explain it for the trips in the car.
- and the cards that same thing are done to resist everything (children, aqua, haterz and fanboys, etc).
In that video I explain that there are 15 different double-sided illustrations for treasure cards.
There is no price on the cards because only the MB knows with a motion die release on its secret treasure board what it has exactly.
I'll show that table later.
What is good is the possibility for the MB to make its own table or to choose a card for an adventure and to change its value.
Say that the lost ring -for example- is worth 2000 gold.
The next videos will be:
- the team cards
- artifact
- chaos
spells
- spells - adventurers
- all the monsters in the basic box (cards and miniatures)
- the elements of scenography
Treasure Cards
Artefact cards
Equipment cards
Chaos Spells
It can't be a coincidence that new videos appear the same week as the legal action email went out.
EDIT: hmmm???
I have also been allowed to say what is missing to finish the game exactly once and for all. Therefore, this week Rafa is working on the layout of the regulation. We need to work on the two adventure books and the heroic rules. Yes, that will take several months, there is no need to hide it.
Onward to 2019
In the Italian forum heroquestforum.it HQFrance is also visible - This time he writes in English, we adapt his words to Spanish:
(...) The video that I made is not official. Unfortunately you have no news in your country which is why I come here from time to time.
I think it's terrible to be in the dark.
That is not the case in France where I keep updates on the development of the game for more than a year in a thread of my forum (I update it every time with the date and time at the end of each message).
(...)
So when I read that [my video] is a "counterattack by GameZone Miniatures" by a message from an association sent by Lánzanos ... no, it is not.
The truth is that you do not know what is happening and it has only been a terrible coincidence. In any case the facts are:
- We are finishing demonstration sets for all countries. It will still take us a few weeks. E-minis will be in charge of demos in stores in Spain.
In Germany it will be Gamezone Miniatures Germany, and myself in France.
I do not know what will happen in your country Îtalia] and the rest. I can ask the team if you wish.
My team is working hard and our goal is to offer the best quality in the demo set and in the final product, of course.
- I have a written authorization from Ludofilia from April 2018 to present the game. I have also clarified the situation with the legal services of Hasbro France.
So now I'm just waiting for a third [Gamezone] submission to complete the demo set and I'll start to organize a plan with clubs & associations that want to play the game [sic].
We need to redo some things first. I have reviewed the letters and once in my hand, I have seen 3 details to change. Nothing important but we have to correct it.
- I have also been allowed to say what is missing to finish the game exactly once and for all. Therefore, this week Rafa is working on the layout of the regulation. We need to work on the two adventure books and the heroic rules. Yes, that will take several months, there is no need to hide it. We will try to do the best, you can not imagine all the problems we have found, all the modifications that GZ has made in the rules, what we have added and what we still keep secret.
- The problem with the dice is solved. The company has sent new data to GZ.
- There are 19 new characters, all with their own name instead of the 15 planned.
- There is a new set of spells, called "Bloody tastes", a bonus set for spells. You decide before starting an adventure if your expenses will cost you points of mind or life.
I will teach more in the next videos.
Several months to get the layout straight for 3 books/booklets? Am I reading that right?
Because that is a ridiculous timeframe and would mean they don't have someone working on layout but have someone do it in their spare time or with a part-time employee.
and an email from GZ addressing the current legal situation they claim it's only 1% of backers - I find that doubtful.
Spoiler:
Apparently they've got around 170 backers to sign up to the legal action there's approx 5,000 backers so about 3.5% of backers involved. There's been a handful of other cases to date so say 5% in total that still leaves 95% of backers "in". If GZ loses this action they are probably looking at €25,000 to hand back plus costs something they will probably drag out and proceed with the rest as they have done - slooooowly.
(All info is coming from a trawl of Darkstone forums)
I think most of the work on this is being done on a voluntary basis at this stage Hanskrampf. The several months bit doesn't surprise me anymore more kicking the can down the road.
The last video bought them some time and things went very quiet now when legal action looms more videos - and I don't think its coincidence despite with HQFrance says - put out some videos by yourself a few more months but get a third party to do it so you can deny all knowledge the next time there's an issue and a distraction and more time is needed.
JohnHwangDD wrote: He says he got clearance from Hasbro France - any way to verify that?
Not really. If Hasbro make a move it will be at release, not earlier. Clearances are not worth anything. The corp can change its mind.
Gamezone has a measure of protection in Spain alone. French customers are protected under EU law, the goods only have to be legal* at point of origin within the EU.
They did a limited run in metal a while back that’s probably where they came from. Backers still get resin with few metal parts for stuff that was to fine for resin.
DaveC wrote: They did a limited run in metal a while back that’s probably where they came from. Backers still get resin with few metal parts for stuff that was to fine for resin.
They better change the box to HQ50 first at the rate they are moving...
To answer the main questions I got in private messages and by mails :
- Cards level 1 & 3 are finished (it means all cards of the campaign)
- Character sheet basic box (8) + additional level 2 (19) are finished
- Monster cards of level 3 are finished
- Basic rulebook is finished
- Treasure results sheet is finished
- Gamemaster's screen is finished
-> Working now on heroic rules and adventure books.
Resin markers I showed in the last video (mind/life points) are for the creatures. 200 000 are made but it's an article you will be able to buy after the game release through the online store. It won't be included in the box.
You asked me why I was presenting special cards of the demo set.
So now you can see what's coming : the card format I showed last weekend is the one for the gamebox.
I will show the second level soon : all miniatures + the character sheets in details then later the level 3.
First demonstration start on this saturday to the french public.
Other countries have received their demo sets and will start soon too.
and a bit extra he added on Darkstone
On the rumor of a delivery of the game only at Christmas and after bell bonuses: Not true.
Everything will be in one shipment as planned.
Not in different shipments and for the moment no, no delivery date.
If I show the next time level 2 and things of level 3 quickly.
For me the main interest is the game and teach games to the French public.
I do not have the time to do the subtitles in Spanish now but as I said: it is not important because you are going to have demonstrations in Spain too.
and another video
(I only found out recently that Youtube has an autotranslate option for subtitles it's in the settings icon)
Although the title says there is news, it is nearly all about the rules. One mention of the release date is at the 1:15 mark. A positive way to interpret it is that the game will be released after some edits are made to the cards. Also Je ne sais pas parler français, behold the magic of google translate.
Keep in mind that they show nothing here that we hadn’t already seen in April 2017. So whilst I want to maintain a small amount of hope, the best we can say for certain is that they were obviously making the game at some point.
Wether or not production has advanced at all in nearly 2 years, or if they’re even close to having the funds to finish production is, sadly, uncertain.
- After many months of closed doors, a patron of HQ25 gets accepted as a visitor in the current workshop of Gamezone . This is Uriel Garrán López who from Madrid has spent a few days in Seville and decided to go to see the local Gamezone during working hours.
Dionosio received him and tells his experience and impressions in the Facebook group Quiero mi HQ25 (February 13, 2019):
I was in the Gamezone store / workshop today.
My impression was good and I think I can answer questions.
(...)
Isabel exists, she is not a bot, she is a lady with very nice glasses.
There was Dionisio, he took care of me for a long time and I thought he was a nice person, although you could tell he had already had to deal with a lot of people on the subject and he had a lot of speech already set up.
The dice are already made, apparently all the figures are finished and packaged. The machines were not working.
(...)
Dates there is no, if what Dionisio said is true and everything depends on the company that has the order of the cartons, which are also having delays, Gamezone would have already completed all its production phase some time ago.
According to I spoke with Dionisio, they think to finish the game, but there is no date, in case the game was not delivered, they would have given the figures (which are made) to the patrons.
Obviously I have no proof of anything I have been told, but I have seen evidence of letters and other cardboard materials. In the workshop there were three people working, besides Dionisio, but I could not see what they were doing.
We discussed the issue of the whistleblower platform and the demands, yes, it was a fairly present issue.
I commented that the company that prints is having production delays as they had, did not give more details. I could see boxes full of dice. He told me the dice were finished in December.
I talked a lot with him about the lack of updates, I tried to convince him to make more publications with several arguments. I do not think he will listen to me, although he admitted to me that it is ugly that there is no more.
What I saw is that now in the company "they are calm" and they fear that to put a new publication "shake the haters".
I can swear to you that I have tried by all means and ideas that have occurred to me to convince him to publish something on the official channel point of his website, which is very unfair to patrons and a lack of respect.
According to what Dionisio told me, the only publication that he has in mind to do is when he has all the material and this is the pending game of uploading videos of peñita playing.
To me the impression he gave me is that really all the material of figures is finished. But of course, it's an impression from what I saw. On the other hand, Dionisio's table was full of papers from the cards, from the board, color tests ... It really seemed that he was working on that subject, because his work zone was full of that kind of stuff.
(...)
I asked Dionisio about the "partial delivery" to the patrons (minis but not the cardboard). I thought of it as a "solution", he told me that some people asked for it, and somehow he suggested that something is present as a last resort, but as long as he sees that he can take the game "and only the cardboard "will not make that decision.
Which by the way, will send the game first in Spanish, but the editions in other languages will be delayed even more.
I actually almost asked him that "if the game does not come out I'm happy with the minis" he told me that it is reasonable, but that the game will come out.
By the way at a certain moment I search my data on my computer to see if I was really a patron xdd
I can not know what happens with the cardboard, if it does not pay Dionisio or that the company has delays due to color issues or gaks. I can only say that it gave me the impression, because of the type of "paperwork" that surrounded the table of the "boss" who seemed to be really working on that subject. (Various types of letters, panels, cardboards with different shades etc).
As I say, I strongly urged Dionisio to publish something on the official website, which can not be that almost everything we know is by seconds (myself) or third (French). He was in the plan: "fething haters have made my life impossible and if something public is going to come back" and I tried to convince him with the idea of: "look, more than what you have already done with the issue of the plaintiffs platform, something worse for you than that and I doubt they can do, so, at this point, it would be a sign of respect to the patrons. " In short "I think" that idea something came to him, I BELIEVE, because I swear I tried to be as diplomatic and good people as I could with him, but it looks like one. Careful head and that will not make me fething case. I was very good vibes, knowing that otherwise it was going "pa na".
The truth is that I went to the workshop with the fear that it was empty, when I saw people working I calmed down a bit, then when I called, they treated me right away.
(...) He
did not deny me that he had problems with money or debts, I think he has to be up to his neck, but he did not give me the impression of being desperate either. There are things you could do, how to sell the entire catalog of HQ minis on the web and you are not doing it because you want to wait for the game to come out. That can be a good sign, and that has at least three employees.
(...)
A funny moment of the conversation is when he told me that "interposed lawsuits go only 54 and patrons are hundreds" I replied that the fallacy of the silent majority does not sneak and that surely with minimal communication from the company demands there would be no .
How can you imagine I did not ask about dates because I knew it was "pa ná", I'm happy with the impression that the game is still in process, but how is it supposed to be a problem of an external company (Chinese, that's confirmed) impossible to know for sure.
(...)
If you live or pass through Seville, I encourage you to go to the workshop, at least what it is to attend to me they took good care of me and according to what Dionisio told me, many patrons have passed through there, although lately there has not been one. Although Dionisio also complained about the people who had gone to bad, I think that if you go of good vibes you can get information, although you have to scratch and keep the details, because the uncle tells more "in passing" or "unintentionally "of what he says by answering the questions, that there are many detours there. Most of the info was taken that way. (...)
I can't say that I'm surprised that after 5 years the rules are a mess.
Posts by Superjavix on the Darkstone Forums - Google Tranalate hence the weird phrasing
I had the opportunity to attend a private demo of the game last week, it's something that I imagine that most of the patrons can not say
My opinion, is that the game is never going to end, in the last year I've just known of remarkable progress, the money ends and now the demands come for different reasons. The only possibility I see is that another company take it and finish it.
With respect to the game, if it is any good ... we played an adventure with some difficulty in which we ended up dying all the players, and the feeling that gave me was good. All the errors that stood out in this forum about skills, incongruities, opinions of critics and others came to light, and reminded me a lot when I met with friends to play an amateur game created by us, with a thousand errors , bad swing, rules that contradict, but very close and fun. What has given the most game and I believe that better implemented has been with respect to the original is the magic, the management of the points of mind to cast spells, both of heroes and enemies, and on the other hand the abilities of the enemies, all They have something they can make you dust with. I see it as a very good KD type candidate:
The bad ... well I said it
I do not know Dionisio, the demo was in Madrid, because he has sent it to some of his collaborators of the translation groups with which I have contact, these collaborators are those who are going to save in some way the game's rules, because to keep in touch to interpret the rules and translate them, because they are also testing and suggesting improvements that in most cases come to fruition. The problem they have is that they wait with dropper for the material to work on, now I think that the adventures begin to arrive, but they still have to be done ... we'll see who ends up taking the bull by the horns and taking care of finishing all that, but everything points out that they are going to be those translation groups and testing those that solve it
The collaborators see that it is a hodgepodge of ideas, but if they left it in their hands they could give it a proper shape and in a short time, and then there are the adventures books of 50 adventures each, in total 100 adventures that are writing Dionisio in person, and not only is writing 100 adventures, but also intends that they are interrelated. Between that and that the communication with him is not at all fluid makes time pass if nothing advances, and less now that the man will be involved in a thousand issues, demands and others.
Given this game's legendary status, I never understood why they didn't just produce an official new edition. For all concerned it would sell like hotcakes and receive rave reviews across the board.
Its probably the next best-known fantasy game after D&D and Warhammer and still played at events even today.
SamusDrake wrote: I never understood why they didn't just produce an official new edition.
It's an IP mess between GW and Hasbro and possibly others, so nobody wants to sit down and talk about it, and nobody is selling their piece a la Fireball Island.
It's an IP mess between GW and Hasbro and possibly others, so nobody wants to sit down and talk about it, and nobody is selling their piece a la Fireball Island.
The suits have no common sense whatsoever....a cup'o'tea and some Rich Teas should do the trick!
Well it's all over folks not that it was in doubt given how long it's dragged on but on plus side Dionisio could be facing 4 to 8 years in prison for aggrivated fraud.
A judge in Seville has concluded the investigation of the case and has issued an abbreviated proceeding for aggravated fraud against Dionisio RG ., Seller of the board game called Heroquest 25th anniversary , which managed to raise 680,000 euros through crowdfunding.
It was the largest collection promoted from Seville and one of the largest in Spain for this system of financing through micro patronage. But the promoter has not delivered a single game since its first announcement to do so in December 2014.
It is estimated that he was able to receive donations from more than 5,000 people , of whom 3,434 are registered today on the Facebook platform called “I want my 25th Anniversary Heroquest”.
MORE INFORMATION
Some of the HeroQuest miniatures
Some of the HeroQuest miniatures
Some of the HeroQuest miniatures
From goose to goose ... and I cheat because it's my turn
The investigating judge 5, in a car dated January 14, has concluded the investigation phase and has sent the case to the Prosecutor's Office of Seville to present its qualification brief , in an investigation carried out by the cybercrime prosecutor.
However, after issuing the PROA order, the Association of Affected Persons who submitted the first complaint requested new evidence consisting of obtaining documentation from the payment platforms used by the buyers, an aspect on which the judge will rule in the coming days.
Sources of the case inform this newspaper that PROA's car imputes to Dionisio RG an alleged crime of aggravated fraud when the circumstances arise that the fraud exceeds 50,000 euros and that there is a high number of those affected . For these conditions, the Criminal Code provides for sentences of 4 to 8 years in prison and a fine of 12 to 24 months.
The board game was announced as a special edition on the 25th anniversary of Heroquest, one of the first and most legendary “dungeon” games that was all the rage in the 90s.
The defendant acknowledged in his judicial statement that he received a net amount close to 590,000 euros in the Lánzanos crowdfunding platform , but explained that he has not delivered any copies to any patron because he does not have the necessary financial funds to finish the game. He said he was looking for financing for it.
The criminal complaint was filed by an Association of Affected Persons that has more than 700 members from all over the world. In October 2019, this association informed that the registration in Group C of those affected will not take place until the date of the trial is close and until then no new complainants will enter the judicial procedure.
To questions of this newspaper, the defense of Dionisio indicated that it has intention to appeal the judicial order.
The seller, officially "in absentia," is raining sentences
The Official Gazette of the Board and the Province of Seville have published in recent weeks different convictions against Dionisio RG, which cannot be located although its company is based in an industrial estate in Seville. Officially it is "in absentia" or "whereabouts unknown."
Thus, BOJA published on December 27 the sentence of a Social Court that condemned its company to pay 16,785 euros to a digital sculptor who worked for him and the Bulletin of the Province inserted in November 2019 the sentence to pay 9,038 euros plus legal interest and costs to a machine and tool company based in Barcelona.
The last official notification is from January 22, when the Official Gazette of the Province published the edict of a Social Court that condemned its company to pay 6,623 euros to a former employee.
dagnabit wrote: Dear HEROQUEST 25th patrons, the game was finally going to be shipped this spring! but due to force majeure causes (coronavirus) and thinking of your health due to possible contagions due to the huge chain from packaging to shipping to your home, we have had to postpone the game until Christmas.
: 
surely at this stage they can do better than running them off on an office printer
