Artemis Black wrote:
I'm sure you're fine Shieldwolf, I've become the posterboy for the cheerleaders hatred so you're probably safe

Lol! :-D
I've read all the previous dialogues (also the "heated" ones).
The points you raise Artemis are more than fair but I believe any person who doesn't want to listen or simply doesn't care will back this anyway, so maybe it's not worth pointing out what is -more than- obvious... ;-)

Yeah, they haven't really mentioned it this go round, which leads to speculation. The speculation is completely warranted, but would be easy to stop. I'm sure once the KS launches they will clear it up. If not... well, we already saw how that went.

Last time I backed out relatively early due to the sample rulebook they put out. I know most people are interested in the minis (I am too), but the rules for me are more important. For those that have followed a long on their forums do you know if there has been more public information about the rule book?

I will probably snag a mini or two to paint, but if the rules are good I would be interested in more. Do we have more information about the actual game?

zreef wrote:
Last time I backed out relatively early due to the sample rulebook they put out. I know most people are interested in the minis (I am too), but the rules for me are more important. For those that have followed a long on their forums do you know if there has been more public information about the rule book?

I will probably snag a mini or two to paint, but if the rules are good I would be interested in more. Do we have more information about the actual game?

Negative. At least, not that I've seen on facebook or here or anything like that. The beta rules from the last KS are still on that page. Once again, I'm hoping they clear a lot of this up once the KS actually launches in a few days.

 David Clarke wrote:
When the kickstarter goes up, if they put switching over to pvc plastic as a stretch goal I would urge as many of us as possible to go in and back for a single dollar so that they can be told directly and unavoidably how unacceptable it is for the majority of potential consumers. Convenience to the manufacturer means nothing if at the end of this I would end up with an inferior product in hand. Mantics adherence to the god awful stuff has made me put off any purchases from them till they get back on the hard plastics train.

Companies bringing new product to market need to be strongly disencouraged from going down this same disappointing route, is learning from the mistakes of others for personal economic advantage that hard a business skill to acquire?

From their Facebook page, apparently they made a final decision after listening to comments:

"Part 2/3 – Material

Today we wanted to unveil the material for the production of our miniatures. It is a firm decision that the only material we will be using for the production of Fallen Frontiers is Polyurethane Resin.
Here are our reasons for choosing this material:

We can produce the miniatures in our factory in Spain, which allows us to have more control over the quality and the production process in a direct manner. We will not have to rely on a third party for production of our miniatures, and we can deliver a finished product with high quality details. It is easy to handle, has high durability, and a light weight for both playing and painting.

We want to keep the production cost under control, so we don’t need to invest in expensive tooling for plastic casting, allowing us to significantly reduce our funding goal. This means that anything over the funding goal will unlock more stretch goals that give our backers more options for physical rewards.

Scale Games has always strived to produce the very best product in both detail and material, and we feel that the use of polyurethane resin for this project will provide the players and the painters with the best material for the greatest detail and durability."

That's good news. I've never heard anything bad about their in house casting of their larger miniatures other than their pouring channel and vent positions occasionally not being optimal:



On a 75mm display model, having to resculpt hair with green stuff because the gate/vent/pouring whole is right on the top of the head would be annoying.

That is a from a much earlier kit. I've heard their recent stuff pays more attention to avoiding that sort of thing.

Right, happy with big chunky resin models. Rulesets aren't necessarily a concern for myself, but I'd like to hope they're good.

I may be able to clear up some of the confusion regarding the discrepancies I mentioned earlier. Or at least put forward a credible theory.

The first thing to notice is that the minis in the two photos below are not the same bloody minis



The green one has a raised neckpiece. As does this blue one on CMON (with the tag 35mm)

http://www.coolminiornot.com/359077

The new one in the shot with a ruler doesn't. It's an altered sculpt. The green and blue ones however match the ones that Arsie was sent here...

http://arsiesweb.com/2014/08/past-jerezs-workshop-review.html

... and measured to be 43mm tall. Which would explain why that green one above is taller than a 37mm Terminator and way taller than the GW chick.

It would be my contention that the new Tarko Stahlen is smaller than the previous ones and made to 'be' the 35mm they claimed the previous ones were.

'If' this is true, then it does draw some confusion to this photo...

https://www.facebook.com/Fallenfrontiers/photos/a.1386201104953868.1073741828.1374659826107996/1396392300601415/?type=1

... as that looks like an altered version of the earlier ones with the neckpiece and therefore is probably the same size. Which makes it an odd choice to use for a size comparison pic. If it is 43mm like the ones Arsie was sent then that is quite misleading.

Now ya know why I kept asking for rulers, there seem to be a bunch of different sized versions of the same mini knocking about

But....everything you're looking at, and judging, are nothing but prototypes and concept models. If they are saying that their miniatures are 35mm, then that's what it is. If the final, production product comes out and the same models are all over the place in terms of size, then you'll have a reason to complain, but at concept stage? When the kick starter hasn't even gone live? Seriously?

I work in the automotive industry, and you won't believe how many times a vehicle can change (at least subtly) between initial concept and customer product.

So in this case with Scale Miniatures, whoppee there's a bunch of different sized concept miniatures floating around. The only thing that matters is that the final product meets their discription.

 Delephont wrote:
But....everything you're looking at, and judging, are nothing but prototypes and concept models. If they are saying that their miniatures are 35mm, then that's what it is. If the final, production product comes out and the same models are all over the place in terms of size, then you'll have a reason to complain, but at concept stage? When the kick starter hasn't even gone live? Seriously?

I work in the automotive industry, and you won't believe how many times a vehicle can change (at least subtly) between initial concept and customer product.

So in this case with Scale Miniatures, whoppee there's a bunch of different sized concept miniatures floating around. The only thing that matters is that the final product meets their discription.

Well firstly there already was a kickstarter? Did you miss it? There wasn't any mention of concept miniatures while there were statements that the minis being shown were 35mm. That now doesn't seem the case unless there's a 3rd bunch of prints involved.

Secondly, if I get shown a mini and a comparison shot then that's what I expect to get. Not a bigger or smaller one unless told specifically otherwise. Pretty certain that's the norm.

Are you here to protect us from being ripped off Artemis?
You're bizarrely quick to jump in with forensic analysis of a KS that hasn't even launched yet. Obviously you aren't offering constructive criticism for Scale's benefit, because this would be an absurd venue for that.
So what's your point here exactly?

Material used = check
Scale Used = check
Funding goal reduced = check
Made people unhappy because of scale = check
Beta rulebook = check

For me they seem to have covered all bases. Looking forward to whats on offer with the pledges.

 Dark Severance wrote:
"Part 2/3 – Material

Today we wanted to unveil the material for the production of our miniatures. It is a firm decision that the only material we will be using for the production of Fallen Frontiers is Polyurethane Resin.
Here are our reasons for choosing this material:

We can produce the miniatures in our factory in Spain, which allows us to have more control over the quality and the production process in a direct manner. We will not have to rely on a third party for production of our miniatures, and we can deliver a finished product with high quality details. It is easy to handle, has high durability, and a light weight for both playing and painting.

We want to keep the production cost under control, so we don’t need to invest in expensive tooling for plastic casting, allowing us to significantly reduce our funding goal. This means that anything over the funding goal will unlock more stretch goals that give our backers more options for physical rewards.

Scale Games has always strived to produce the very best product in both detail and material, and we feel that the use of polyurethane resin for this project will provide the players and the painters with the best material for the greatest detail and durability."

Well, that settles it! I will definitely be backing this . Concerns over the material were really what was keeping me out. Very glad it will be polyurethane resin! Also known by wargamers as "real resin" (or "hand cast resin", usually made using a silicone mold).

I would like to request that someone who is going to keep up with the campaign make a new thread when it launches, and we'll lock / move this one, since it's a bit cumbersome to track at this point. In fact, once firm details come out about the new campaign / they are truly previewing it, a new thread might be appropriate - just PM me if you have any questions, or just go for it (you may want to note that I requested you to do so in the OP, or if it gets locked instead of this one I'll sort it later, etc).

This is great news!

Less great for my wallet :( ...

Artemis Black wrote:The new one in the shot with a ruler doesn't. It's an altered sculpt.

Good eye. I didn't notice that at all.

Delephont wrote:The only thing that matters is that the final product meets their discription.

Yes, and the miniatures they show in the upcoming KS will set the expectations for what people should receive.

plastictrees wrote:You're bizarrely quick to jump in with forensic analysis of a KS that hasn't even launched yet. Obviously you aren't offering constructive criticism for Scale's benefit, because this would be an absurd venue for that.
So what's your point here exactly?

Umm. He actually spotted a real difference that no one else did. And made no comment about it being a negative thing.

I for one am happy they are adjusting from the last KS to the new one. I think the altered sculpt looks better and think the slightly smaller size looks better too. Hopefully the KS comparison shot ends up looking like the revised one.

More facts are only a good thing when it comes to a KS. As you can see from the last KS, nothing kills things faster than unknowns.

So yeah, Artermis is helping them out because I bet a lot of people will have a far clearer understanding of what the issues are and thus can make informed decisions about them. And pretty much every concern has been addressed.

This isn't an anti-FF/Scale75 crusade by an angry poster-- it's an honest assessment of the information. I believe the new KS and the final product everyone will receive in the end will be better for the scrutiny, not worse.

 Artemis Black wrote:


Well firstly there already was a kickstarter? Did you miss it? There wasn't any mention of concept miniatures while there were statements that the minis being shown were 35mm. That now doesn't seem the case unless there's a 3rd bunch of prints involved.

Secondly, if I get shown a mini and a comparison shot then that's what I expect to get. Not a bigger or smaller one unless told specifically otherwise. Pretty certain that's the norm.

Here we go again.....yes, I know about the original KS, it failed. Here's a newsflash, they're starting a new one, and that's what I'm referring to when I state "the kickstarter hasn't gone live yet". Nobody here denies that they made mistakes the first time round, but they've come back and are trying to do it better! They've answered the scale question, and who cares if they've rescaled their range? Who cares if you drag up photos from the last (failed) kickstarter to compare with their latest offering? Does that even make logical sense?

And finally, way up front, they've sorted the material issue!

So, that's that I'd say.

 Delephont wrote:
They've answered the scale question, and who cares if they've rescaled their range?

People like me who thought they were just on the edge of being too big? Or others who didn't pledge (or depledged) last KS because of uncertainty and too many unknowns-- now they can see how things have changed since the last KS.

Who cares if you drag up photos from the last (failed) kickstarter to compare with their latest offering? Does that even make logical sense?

It certainly shows me that Scale75 put in some work and things are moving forward.

*That* makes logical sense. Railing against people discussing it is what really makes no sense.

 frozenwastes wrote:

 Delephont wrote:
They've answered the scale question, and who cares if they've rescaled their range?

People like me who thought they were just on the edge of being too big? Or others who didn't pledge (or depledged) last KS because of uncertainty and too many unknowns-- now they can see how things have changed since the last KS.

Who cares if you drag up photos from the last (failed) kickstarter to compare with their latest offering? Does that even make logical sense?

It certainly shows me that Scale75 put in some work and things are moving forward.

*That* makes logical sense. Railing against people discussing it is what really makes no sense.

This will be my only response to you, stop taking my statements out of context.

I have no issue with people being critical of the project. I have no issue with people discussing real issues and flagging up improvements.

I have an issue with malicious sabotage for the sake of drama. Let's assume you are interested in this project, and let's assume you want it to succeed. Tell me how Artemis is helping that to happen? Has he set up a public dialogue with Scale where he can post his questions and show us the response? No, he's leading a one man poison parade on a forum where his questions can never be challenged or answered by the developers themselves. So if his questions are simply rhetorical, what's his agenda? That's what I'm challenging.

Most "honest" people would make a negative comment (if that's how they felt) and walk away. Why does Artemis keep coming back to push the point? Especially if the developers have clearly responded to the point in other media, and for many, have satisfactorily set the record straight?

Now if you want to keep reading the same old tired (cloaked) accusations, then you go ahead.

Edited by RiTides

 Delephont wrote:
I have an issue with malicious sabotage for the sake of drama. Let's assume you are interested in this project, and let's assume you want it to succeed. Tell me how Artemis is helping that to happen?

The only success I care about for a Kickstarter is timely and accurate fulfillment. People like myself who pledge and then actually getting what they thought they were pledging for.

So Artemis' posts have been invaluable in terms of having the unknowns and uncertainties clearly identified.

Has he set up a public dialogue with Scale where he can post his questions and show us the response?

Scale can post here. They're not banned at Dakka or anything, right? This. Is. A. Public. Dialogue.

Why does Artemis keep coming back to push the point? Especially if the developers have clearly responded to the point in other media, and for many, have satisfactorily set the record straight?

Because he finds the act of discussion interesting?

Now if you want to keep reading the same old tired (cloaked) accusations, then you go ahead. I'm sure as long as Artemis feels he has an audience he'll be happy to drivel on.

Did you notice the differences between previously shown miniatures and the latest image and bring it up as a topic of discussion? Nope. He actually contributed a fact to the discussion and all you've done is yell and whine about it and claim it's some sort of personal crusade.

discuss the material instead of just trying to shout down others.

Edited by RiTides

---

Okay, that's enough bickering! Even on Dakka, where we try to allow as much open conversation as possible, there are limits to how long this kind of thing can continue...

In particular, I'd like to note a few things:

1. Criticism of a project is accepted and welcome in any thread on Dakka.
2. Focusing on the user rather than on their point tends to drag a thread off-topic.
3. For myself, as someone who is personally interested in the project, I think these threads will remain more on-topic if the critics are simply allowed to have their say, rather than being jumped on for their points.

I have had to delete a few posts, and edit others, from both "sides" of this argument. I would ask that no further posts be made about the character of any poster in this thread, but rather simply focus on the project at-hand.

In fact, I would REALLY like to repeat my request for someone who is interested in the project to make a new thread for it. A new campaign is forthcoming, there is new information, and we don't need this giant thread to discuss that... this one can be linked to for reference.

If anyone does volunteer to do so, please PM me or another moderator to lock up this thread. Thanks.

Good timing, my next reply was going to be to muse on why this thread has become more about me talking about FF than about FF itself

To both people who chimed in about it on this page though, we actually do know Scale read this thread. They were practically replying to things we said here in their last KS on the comments page of it, there were numerous posts about it at the time. I doubt they've decided to not bother any more.

I have also brought these points up directly to FF, and the same as last Kickstarter I get vague non-answers normally followed by cheerleaders for them piling in with insults and taking it even more off topic than here.
So I figure where else is better to discuss a kickstarter than a discussion forum in a thread specifially about that kickstarter?

Done!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/622529.page#7342102