These lists have way too many Kastelans. I mean, I get that from a Mathhammer perspective, they're our most efficient unit, but they're also one of our most vulnerable units.
Anyhow, it seems like my point on mass air and horde are right. The dominant armies are Dante+Stormraven spam, Hemlock spam, or Rowboat+Ultramarines+Guard horde, and Magnus+Princes+Horrors horde.
I think we're seriously underrating how important Icarus Crawlers are in this meta. Everything and their mom flies for the bonuses. I say 1:1 Neutron:Icarus at the minimum.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Iago40k wrote: As expected, there are not that many AdMech lists. I talked with a friend of mine who is a team member. He told me that AdMech "is just not up there". Mainly because AdMech is too vincible to good melee armies when playing a combination of progressive and end game objective missions, which is the usual way to go.
We have known for awhile that without a strong mobile element, your only hope in progressive objective games is to table the opponent. It's why I bring a Knight Crusader and 6 Dragoons. Though now that I see the gunship spam, maybe running something like 4 Icarus Crawlers and 2 Neutron Crawlers is not a bad idea.
Here's hoping our codex gives us some mobility perks or ways to make our Dragoons and Ironstriders a bit more efficient, like Explode on command?
Suzuteo wrote: These lists have way too many Kastelans. I mean, I get that from a Mathhammer perspective, they're our most efficient unit, but they're also one of our most vulnerable units.
yeah I think so too. I tested a lot of lists with difrerent numbers of Kastelans and I really think that 2-4 is the sweet spot. I run 2 or 3 though since that worked best for me.
While I understand from a perspective leaning towards the meta, I'm flabbergasted at these admech lists. Dakkastelens not in aegis only take 3 lascannon hits to take down, less if they are even a bit lucky.
Spamming them sounds good in theory but by the omnissiah taking 6, 10, 12? Sounds like a losing proposition.
If stormraven spam becomes a problem, I believe neutron onagers are more important! They are equals in output vs icaruswith cawl nearby, with a much higher and more likely damage potential. The icarus is relying on a lot of 4s and 5s to wound, and a lot of 4+ and 5+ saves to be failed.
I'm still feeling weighing your onager numbers towards them. Maybe less so if dark eldar or hemlock are more prevalent I. Your area. But if its t7, 3+ flyers? Gotta go neutron for me.
I played against the 12 robbit list at ATC. He lined his priests just an inch in front of the bots. I Pulled up some electro protest from shooting, then 2 of my Deathwing Knights units made their charges. They managed to kill all the priests and then consolidate within 1" of all three robot units. They couldn't move, so I knew I got the win then.
axisofentropy wrote: I played against the 12 robbit list at ATC. He lined his priests just an inch in front of the bots. I Pulled up some electro protest from shooting, then 2 of my Deathwing Knights units made their charges. They managed to kill all the priests and then consolidate within 1" of all three robot units. They couldn't move, so I knew I got the win then.
Oh so he's awful at list making AND playing. Like the first thing you learn in 8th. Keep the screen 3''+ away from the thing it is protecting. Ugh
No offense to you if you, you just got a free win pretty much.
I think this spamming Onagers and Kastelans refers to any other army spamming their best stuff. It is very clear now that neither 12 bots nor 10 Onagers have the same impact as 6 stormravens. Which is a good thing.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Well the flyer lists are gonna get hardfixed by either progresive scoring, eliminating the detachment or flyers not being able to score at all
I am VERY curious to see what GW does. I think a point bump for the Stormraven would be good, though I won't hold my breath. Just look at the Fire Raptor for a good area of points. 400+ for its firepower and it doesn't carry troops or a dread. While a Stormraven with TAC, THB, Hurricanes and the missiles is just a meager 274pt. I think if it went to 315 or so, it might help mitigate the spamminess.
So after seeing the different space marine chapters, what do you think they will do for AdMech when the codex rolls around?
It's probably a good chance they will be based on Forge worlds, so what do you think each forge world will get?
I'm hoping Ryza gets some sort of plasma weapon bonus, maybe as a stratagem or something.
Some characters other than Cawl would be nice as well.
Azegoroth wrote: So after seeing the different space marine chapters, what do you think they will do for AdMech when the codex rolls around?
It's probably a good chance they will be based on Forge worlds, so what do you think each forge world will get?
I'm hoping Ryza gets some sort of plasma weapon bonus, maybe as a stratagem or something.
Some characters other than Cawl would be nice as well.
We aren't getting other characters but probably a cheaper HQ.
Azegoroth wrote: So after seeing the different space marine chapters, what do you think they will do for AdMech when the codex rolls around?
It's probably a good chance they will be based on Forge worlds, so what do you think each forge world will get?
I'm hoping Ryza gets some sort of plasma weapon bonus, maybe as a stratagem or something.
Some characters other than Cawl would be nice as well.
We don't really have any official precedent for it, so who knows! Ryza with Plasma does seem likely, but that is fluff precedent and we see what they did with Salamanders.
I do wonder what Metalica will get. They don't have exactly much as far as precedent.
Azegoroth wrote: So after seeing the different space marine chapters, what do you think they will do for AdMech when the codex rolls around?
It's probably a good chance they will be based on Forge worlds, so what do you think each forge world will get?
I'm hoping Ryza gets some sort of plasma weapon bonus, maybe as a stratagem or something.
Some characters other than Cawl would be nice as well.
We aren't getting other characters but probably a cheaper HQ.
The elephant in the room is that "Mars" keyword. But yeah, it would be great if they had something like a few more named TPDs to choose from. I actually do not think we will be getting a cheaper HQ from the codex; we might have some hope with FW. (Still waiting on my Peltasts.)
So I played around with it a few times and I was wondering what other cog-heads will think of a list using imperial guard in place of skitarii? I mean, I love skitarii and have close to 50 models of them, but right now I feel they are severely overcosted for what we need (bubble wrap and bodies)
20 Conscripts
infantry squad with plasma gun, heavy bolter and vox caster
infantry squad with plasma gun, heavy bolter and vox caster
infantry squad with plasma gun, heavy bolter and vox caster
The dominus and datasmith are in the batallion detachment because they are some of the guys that don't really benefit the most from the canticles, and because I needed the space. The IG are there to provide some defense against deep-strikers and giving us some extra bodies and guns to pepper the enemies with more fire. This list could also easily be changed to have cawl or maybe transports, allowing me to get to places faster and have a little more protection.
Tiger9gamer wrote: So I played around with it a few times and I was wondering what other cog-heads will think of a list using imperial guard in place of skitarii? I mean, I love skitarii and have close to 50 models of them, but right now I feel they are severely overcosted for what we need (bubble wrap and bodies)
20 Conscripts
infantry squad with plasma gun, heavy bolter and vox caster
infantry squad with plasma gun, heavy bolter and vox caster
infantry squad with plasma gun, heavy bolter and vox caster
The dominus and datasmith are in the batallion detachment because they are some of the guys that don't really benefit the most from the canticles, and because I needed the space. The IG are there to provide some defense against deep-strikers and giving us some extra bodies and guns to pepper the enemies with more fire. This list could also easily be changed to have cawl or maybe transports, allowing me to get to places faster and have a little more protection.
thoughts?
If you go back to page 21, Wulfey kicks off a discussion of using Conscript blobs and/or Celestine with Sisters to screen for 6 Crawlers. I think many of us are concerned that this strategy commits too much to tabling your opponent and exacerbates our already poor mobility, which can be very problematic in a progressive objective game.
You won't need the Rock 'em Sock 'em Robots or the Destroyers in that list. I recommend 2x Icarus Crawlers and another unit of 2x Phosphor Kastelans in their place. Or 3x Icarus Crawlers and more Conscripts.
Anyone have any experience running Dreadnoughts, perhaps with Drop Pods? I don't own any because last edition they were rather "meh," but the new Iron Hands chapter tactic is a FNP for vehicles that seems really fluffy.
Verviedi wrote: ETC lists are up. From what little I read, our lists are mostly just Kastelans + Cawl + Onagers (because those are the good units, obv )
People enjoy winning in a competitive setting. Nobody likes playing spam, nobody likes playing against spam. But in a competitive setting, people are going to try to bring the best list they can and if it's 9 crawlers, it's 9 crawlers. BAO last year I played a nid player with like 4 flyrants and a few harpys and like 2 venomthropes and some spore mines and that was it. I brought a war con. I lost. Badly. The whole time, he was sincerely apologetic that I had to go against flyrant spam. He clearly didn't want to play it or force others to play against it. But in order to not get tabled every game in a competitive scene, it's what he had to bring. I enjoy playing in tournaments. The stakes, the tension, the strategy needing to be exactly right, the competition. I also enjoy narrative-driven games, just being able to relax and play and roll dice and have a grand old time. They just scratch different itches. I intend to go to BAO in a week, and I'll probably post my list here for review. It won't be spam, but it also won't win me the tournament. But I'll do ok, and that's fine.
Another contributor to spam is the opacity of the metagame. Right now, nobody knows what's the best, so everyone is playing a dominant rather than reactive strategy. In time, the metagame will cohere and reduce the strategy space. Spam will become increasingly intransitive.
Suffice to say, the number of all-Kastelan lists will diminish, as people see that there are unsuccessful and see the successful lists.
Suzuteo wrote: Another contributor to spam is the opacity of the metagame. Right now, nobody knows what's the best, so everyone is playing a dominant rather than reactive strategy. In time, the metagame will cohere and reduce the strategy space. Spam will become increasingly intransitive.
Suffice to say, the number of all-Kastelan lists will diminish, as people see that there are unsuccessful and see the successful lists.
THIS 100%.
Spam will dissipate as the metagame congeals. For sure. One thing that will also kick things into high gear is the Codex release schedule, too. I feel it will have many incentives in it via strategems, special rules and relics that encourage things beyond "bring X of this obviously good model!"
I sincerely hope so, I'm waiting for the codices with great impatience to flesh out every army. Here's to hoping Space Marines won't be ridiculously overpowered in the meantime.
Aaranis wrote: I sincerely hope so, I'm waiting for the codices with great impatience to flesh out every army. Here's to hoping Space Marines won't be ridiculously overpowered in the meantime.
What meantime? We are supposed to get 10 Codices like... this year. Which is pretty absurd. I doubt we will be one of them, but a guy can dream.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: What meantime? We are supposed to get 10 Codices like... this year. Which is pretty absurd. I doubt we will be one of them, but a guy can dream.
Two of the four first are already about Space Marines, and there's still another one that have to come with Dark Angels and Blood Angels (and let's hope they won't have each their special codex), and two just for Chaos Marines too, there's still need to be one for Daemons. What I mean is that half of the 10 codices for this year may be just for Marines as if their biggest fanbase. If these codices prove very powerful it'll be tough to battle OPSM lists for half a year. Thankfully there's plenty of armies and players at my FLG.
I sound pessimistic but that's what I believe will happen.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: What meantime? We are supposed to get 10 Codices like... this year. Which is pretty absurd. I doubt we will be one of them, but a guy can dream.
Two of the four first are already about Space Marines, and there's still another one that have to come with Dark Angels and Blood Angels (and let's hope they won't have each their special codex), and two just for Chaos Marines too, there's still need to be one for Daemons. What I mean is that half of the 10 codices for this year may be just for Marines as if their biggest fanbase. If these codices prove very powerful it'll be tough to battle OPSM lists for half a year. Thankfully there's plenty of armies and players at my FLG.
I sound pessimistic but that's what I believe will happen.
I can't see them doing all Marines. I expect Eldar, Tau and/or Orks will be in there. I feel like they will do a good split of Imperium, Chaos and Xenos to make 8th a broad appeal. Just my thoughts on it.
I'm expecting the following release schedule for the first ten. Feel free to prove me wrong, GW.
Codex: Space Marines
Codex: Death Guard
Codex: Grey Knights
Codex: Chaos Space Marines
Codex: Space Wolves
Codex: Blood Angels
Codex: Dark Angels
Codex: Talons Of The Emperor
Codex: Eldar
Codex: Tau
Suzuteo wrote: Fires of Cyraxis is supposed to be this year. I suspect that they will have goodies for us in there, since we're missing a ton of FW stuff.
When reality itself is a soup of cold gas, when the last black holes are flickering out, and the last star is dying alone in the black, Fires Of Cyraxus will finally be released, to an audience of one.
Well, it would let them delay Tau and AdMech codexes...
I definitely am hoping that they keep Peltasts mostly the same. The combi-weapon rule change plus bubble shields at 12 points per model will make them the perfect bubble wrap.
Any of you lot managed to get Ranger/Vanguard centric lists to work?
I really don't like feeling shoehorned into Neutron Crawlers and Kastellans, so I'm trying to do it myself, albeit without much success.
Vets and Chaplain were there simply because I wanted to use a melée jetpack lot, for want of using Ferroxian Thallax.
All they did was attract attention, but the Chaplain managed a heroic b-line into the enemy Lord. (And did an unfortunate 0 damage)
Landraiders are ending up in all my lists currently, regardless if I'm transporting anything in them or not.
I've got 4 of the buggers (were used as Macrocarids, which I always fielded anyway).
Managed to knock 13 HP off the knight, before getting stuck in CC with it.
The 5 skittle squads really tried, and managed to take down one of the Helbrutes after 4 turns, but not a lot otherwise.
Arc weaponry isn't exactly what it used to be; not sure what I expected on that front.
---
Can't say I was expecting to face what I did, but I didn't expect to have such poor odds at actually fighting.
We were playing Objectives, which is where the MSU Skittles are alright at, so it wasn't a complete wipeout.
Not building my lists to be competitive; doing so to try out all the stuff and gauge what-do.
I'm going to have to try Plasma Calivers next. The Arquebi feel alright, but not tremendously enticing.
Hey I tried my Ruststalkers today for the first time, 1600 pts against Tau. Really satisfied with them, they didn't have really big targets before getting shot but what they had they sliced. Charged two Stealth Suits and dealt like 6 mortal wounds and some normal wounds, and that's without the Chordclaw hits. Then I finished off a Ghostkeel with 2W that charged me with another 4 mortal wounds of the Razors. I feel they are pretty good and really cheap at that. I don't think I'd play more than 5 under 2000 but they're a really nice addition, curious to see our codex stratagems and tactics to see how far we can go with a CC oriented army of pure AdMech.
Suzuteo wrote: I can imagine Dante, five flyers, and a bunch of ICs hiding in bunkers and the edges of the map or something.
If they are in a bunker, they wouldn't count as being on the table right? Nor do Fortifications count if I recall right per the FAQ.
So basically, Dante dies, autoloss. The issue is that shooting Dante when he has a handful of hovering flyers nearby is that you can't target him before you got to target the flyers due to him being a character.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, on an aside, I did an 1100pt game today and whoo boy, four Kastelans at that point value are just brutal. I went second and thankfully the mission had Night Fighting that really helped mitigate their firepower. It was against Guard too, so I was sweating. Managed to get the win by just wiping out all his non-artillery units.
Suzuteo wrote: I can imagine Dante, five flyers, and a bunch of ICs hiding in bunkers and the edges of the map or something.
If they are in a bunker, they wouldn't count as being on the table right? Nor do Fortifications count if I recall right per the FAQ.
So basically, Dante dies, autoloss. The issue is that shooting Dante when he has a handful of hovering flyers nearby is that you can't target him before you got to target the flyers due to him being a character.
Yes they do:
When determining if a player has any units on the battlefield, do not include any units with the Flyer Battlefield Role – these units cannot operate within a combat airspace indefinitely and they cannot hold territory without ground support. Furthermore, do
not include any units with the Fortification Battlefield Role unless they have a unit embarked inside – even the most formidable bastion requires a garrison if it is to pose a threat.’
There's someone in the Fortification therefore there's someone still alive on the table.
But I'd just not play with the guys who makes that kind of list to be honest, what I'm looking for in Warhammer is to have fun games where we simulate a battlefield with loads of units fighting each other, not to see how long my army resists to 5 Stormravens while one of the greatest swordsman of the Imperium hides in a bunker, I want my games to look credible.
Hello there, so I have a question about Neutron Onagers. I'm building a couple and was wondering whether or not to add the second cognis heavy stubber. So my question is if i have the extra heavy stubber can it and the one connected to the neutron laser shoot at an infantry unit or whatever and the neutron laser shoot at a tank OR does the connected heavy stubber have to shoot at what the Neutron laser shoots at. Thanks!
I think the Neutron comes with the stubber, but I don't think its an extra one. So I don't think you end up with 2 stubbers?
Also I just picked up a couple starter boxes (2) can anyone help me out with understanding how I should setup my skiitari especially weapons wise? I was already planning on splitting them into groups of 5 an doing 2 sets of ranges with each one arquebus, and 2 sets of 5 vanguard
Jaynen wrote: I think the Neutron comes with the stubber, but I don't think its an extra one. So I don't think you end up with 2 stubbers?
Also I just picked up a couple starter boxes (2) can anyone help me out with understanding how I should setup my skiitari especially weapons wise? I was already planning on splitting them into groups of 5 an doing 2 sets of ranges with each one arquebus, and 2 sets of 5 vanguard
Blandguards are a popular choice here, because they are bubble wrap. You just go bare-bones, no upgrades.
OR, you can go for some cheap-as-dirt Arc Rifles on your min squads. A whopping 58pt investment for 5 dudes that will likely get shot off the table or rolled in combat in one round.
Oh, Skitarii. You are so awful. Here is hoping our Codex gives them (and other units) some form of Fearless at the least.
You get a stubber with the Neutron laser & can buy another one for 8 points. As far as I know there is no limit to split fire. The stubber is mounted under the neutron laser but is a separate gun, thus could be targeted independently.
I either un 5-man bare-bones units as first-turn-charge insurance, or run 5-man units with 1 or 2 plasma calivers and hide them from site behind a building or some such... only bringing them out when their firepower can really make a difference late-game. Our low leadership makes running them in larger squads not make a lot of sense... and if you're going to just stick them out there to be shot at or assaulted... there's no real reason to upgrade them.
I like the rangers with arquebusses, but they're just too easy for my opponent to kill (and the arquebusses tend to make them a priority target).
Gitsplitta wrote: You get a stubber with the Neutron laser & can buy another one for 8 points. As far as I know there is no limit to split fire. The stubber is mounted under the neutron laser but is a separate gun, thus could be targeted independently.]
Jaynen wrote: I think the Neutron comes with the stubber, but I don't think its an extra one. So I don't think you end up with 2 stubbers?
Also I just picked up a couple starter boxes (2) can anyone help me out with understanding how I should setup my skiitari especially weapons wise? I was already planning on splitting them into groups of 5 an doing 2 sets of ranges with each one arquebus, and 2 sets of 5 vanguard
Blandguards are a popular choice here, because they are bubble wrap. You just go bare-bones, no upgrades.
OR, you can go for some cheap-as-dirt Arc Rifles on your min squads. A whopping 58pt investment for 5 dudes that will likely get shot off the table or rolled in combat in one round.
Oh, Skitarii. You are so awful. Here is hoping our Codex gives them (and other units) some form of Fearless at the least.
We are talking about super casual at this point just in our office. The two start collecting boxes are all I will have initially, however Cawl, some Kastellans, and maybe some rust stalker/infiltrators are kind of on my list in roughly that order.
One guy has just picked up two Tau Starter sets, and another guy has the Dark Imperium set and is going to probably play the space marines not the death guard.
Think likely small point stuff for now so we can play quick battles at lunch etc.
I was thining neutraon+stubber, should I get the additional stubber as well? What about the other optional pieces for the onagers?
Do you have to take vanguard/ranger alphas?
I just dont want to build things wrong and have to replace the models
Or do I need to splash some IG units or something into the mix? Not even sure what kind of things to consider I just had not played for a few years AM was new and i like how tech priests etc look
We are talking about super casual at this point just in our office. The two start collecting boxes are all I will have initially, however Cawl, some Kastellans, and maybe some rust stalker/infiltrators are kind of on my list in roughly that order.
One guy has just picked up two Tau Starter sets, and another guy has the Dark Imperium set and is going to probably play the space marines not the death guard.
Think likely small point stuff for now so we can play quick battles at lunch etc.
I was thining neutraon+stubber, should I get the additional stubber as well? What about the other optional pieces for the onagers?
Do you have to take vanguard/ranger alphas?
I just dont want to build things wrong and have to replace the models
Or do I need to splash some IG units or something into the mix? Not even sure what kind of things to consider I just had not played for a few years AM was new and i like how tech priests etc look
I would advise you to magnetize your Onager, that way you can experiment with different builds, and always have your options open. It is also pretty easy to magnetize as far as vehicles go!
You will need to take Ranger/Vanguard Alphas for each unit, but I don't think they generally merit upgrades. I'm a fan of Plasma Calivers, being able to advance and still shoot all of the unit's guns on a 4+ is pretty neat, and helps get them in range turn one.
Yeah I really don't understand the differences of the different weapon options well. The Onagers do look easy to magnetize . I wonder what the easiest way to do that is
Msolve wrote: Hello there, so I have a question about Neutron Onagers. I'm building a couple and was wondering whether or not to add the second cognis heavy stubber. So my question is if i have the extra heavy stubber can it and the one connected to the neutron laser shoot at an infantry unit or whatever and the neutron laser shoot at a tank OR does the connected heavy stubber have to shoot at what the Neutron laser shoots at. Thanks!
You can add one extra stubber. Each weapon can shoot at a different target.
You should not add that stubber though. You will have 2-3 Neutron Crawlers in a list, and those 16-24 points can go into your screen instead.
Jaynen wrote: I think the Neutron comes with the stubber, but I don't think its an extra one. So I don't think you end up with 2 stubbers?
Also I just picked up a couple starter boxes (2) can anyone help me out with understanding how I should setup my skiitari especially weapons wise? I was already planning on splitting them into groups of 5 an doing 2 sets of ranges with each one arquebus, and 2 sets of 5 vanguard
If you're doing casual, low-point armies, then Vanguard are actually pretty good. Two words: Plasma Caliver. I would do squads of five with as many Plasma Calivers as possible; the other Vanguard should pretty much be naked, but if you face a lot of shooty armies, the Omnispex might be nice. Overcharge the Plasma to melt through stuff. Keep them near a TPD so they can reroll 1s. You can also have two Neutron Crawlers; get one Icarus if any of your friends have Tau or Eldar. Great for blowing up vehicles and shelling your opponents from afar.
One of them is Tau, so maybe I should do one Neutron and one Icarus
So don't add the stubber to either? Or don't add it to the Neutron ones?
If I have two starter boxes I think I can set them up as either Rangers or Vanguard. I was going to do some rangers and some vanguard for the sniper rifles. But it looks like both troops can technically take them?
So if i am reading this right I would
4x Skitarii Rangers, 1 Transuranic Arquebus, 1 Plasma Caliver
1x Ranger Alpha (what does he come with stock? (looks like pistols and melee)
Do the above twice
4x Skitarii Vanguard, 2 Plasma Caliver
1x Vanguard Alpha (same questions as above)
Do the above twice
Jaynen wrote: One of them is Tau, so maybe I should do one Neutron and one Icarus
So don't add the stubber to either? Or don't add it to the Neutron ones?
If I have two starter boxes I think I can set them up as either Rangers or Vanguard. I was going to do some rangers and some vanguard for the sniper rifles. But it looks like both troops can technically take them?
So if i am reading this right I would
4x Skitarii Rangers, 1 Transuranic Arquebus, 1 Plasma Caliver
1x Ranger Alpha (what does he come with stock? (looks like pistols and melee)
Do the above twice
4x Skitarii Vanguard, 2 Plasma Caliver
1x Vanguard Alpha (same questions as above)
Do the above twice
Tech Priest take the Eradication Beamer and Macrostubber?
Icarus totally wrecks battlesuits. Be sure to deploy in such a way that they don't get too close though (at least 3" and at most 9" away from your vehicles, with no area to deep strike). Fusion Blasters are 18" Assault weapons, and at half-range, they melt vehicles pretty fast.
For the Vanguard, the numbers you decide depend on if you intend to scale up. At higher point values, Vanguard are pretty bad and only the vanilla builds have any use. Another decision is whether or not to take Omnispex. It's good against people camping in cover, but I generally leave it at home.
3 Alphas, 9 Carbine, 3 Caliver (you can make two units of vanilla Vanguard with this)
3 Alphas, 6 Carbine, 6 Caliver (if you don't care about scaling)
If you want Omnispex, your options are:
3 Alphas, 6 Carbine, 2 Carbine+Omnispex, 4 Caliver (one unit of vanillas, two units of dual Caliver plus Omnispex)
3 Alphas, 3 Carbine, 6 Caliver, 3 Omnispex (full-blown Calivers and Omnispexes)
In terms of what we will play here I don't know how much we will scale.
In terms of potential purchases I know that I want one set of 2 Kastellans with the Data dude, a Cawl for HQ, and then maybe some rust stalkers/infiltrators
Can I build the starter box as two 5 man vanguard by default? IE I have parts for 3 alpha vanguards?
I see the reason for the 3 Caliver is so when I only want to run 2 sets of 5 blandguard I already have the models
I will end up with two TPD models if I wanted to keep one naked and one with stuff on it
Jaynen wrote: In terms of what we will play here I don't know how much we will scale.
In terms of potential purchases I know that I want one set of 2 Kastellans with the Data dude, a Cawl for HQ, and then maybe some rust stalkers/infiltrators
Can I build the starter box as two 5 man vanguard by default? IE I have parts for 3 alpha vanguards?
I see the reason for the 3 Caliver is so when I only want to run 2 sets of 5 blandguard I already have the models
I will end up with two TPD models if I wanted to keep one naked and one with stuff on it
I think it comes with three Alpha heads. One with a lateral helmet crest, one with an anterior helmet crest, and one with the goggles and spikey bits poking out. (Someone correct me if I am misremembering or mistaken; I've never bought a Getting Started box.)
Jaynen wrote: In terms of what we will play here I don't know how much we will scale.
In terms of potential purchases I know that I want one set of 2 Kastellans with the Data dude, a Cawl for HQ, and then maybe some rust stalkers/infiltrators
Can I build the starter box as two 5 man vanguard by default? IE I have parts for 3 alpha vanguards?
I see the reason for the 3 Caliver is so when I only want to run 2 sets of 5 blandguard I already have the models
I will end up with two TPD models if I wanted to keep one naked and one with stuff on it
I think it comes with three Alpha heads. One with a lateral helmet crest, one with an anterior helmet crest, and one with the goggles and spikey bits poking out. (Someone correct me if I am misremembering or mistaken; I've never bought a Getting Started box.)
You are exactly correct on the head load out, the skitarii are very easy to mix and match and make some nice alphas that stick out.
I also like to say how much I appreciate this thread and the ad mech community. I took a long hiatus from the game, and upon returning I decided something new would hit the spot and the skitarii getting started set had me hooked, but so did this thread. The last competitve game I played ended with me winning a codex: planetstrike and a starter set of my choosing. Upon coming back it was awesome to find this thread and the admech players from around the world. I especially appreciate the folks who don't play cawl. I understand the efficiency but I'm a bit of a sucker for fluff and I love that you make armies work around him. once again no hate towards him (I understand he's a obvious take in competitive settings) but my gaming group does no special characters period so it was wonderful to see.
But I'd just not play with the guys who makes that kind of list to be honest, what I'm looking for in Warhammer is to have fun games where we simulate a battlefield with loads of units fighting each other, not to see how long my army resists to 5 Stormravens while one of the greatest swordsman of the Imperium hides in a bunker, I want my games to look credible.
I'd also say, for anyone assembling Vanguard or Rangers, to use the un-helmeted (not specifically Vanguard or Ranger) heads in to box for your special weapons or omnispexes, that way you can use them with either Rangers or Vanguard as the need arises.
Regis Terzieff-Godefroy wrote: I'd also say, for anyone assembling Vanguard or Rangers, to use the un-helmeted (not specifically Vanguard or Ranger) heads in to box for your special weapons or omnispexes, that way you can use them with either Rangers or Vanguard as the need arises.
So build the two Transqueric Arqubues with non helmet dudes? Or the plasma Cavaliers?
Regis Terzieff-Godefroy wrote: I'd also say, for anyone assembling Vanguard or Rangers, to use the un-helmeted (not specifically Vanguard or Ranger) heads in to box for your special weapons or omnispexes, that way you can use them with either Rangers or Vanguard as the need arises.
So build the two Transqueric Arqubues with non helmet dudes? Or the plasma Cavaliers?
Both if there are enough heads. I can't recall how many come in the box, but it's at least two or three.
I don't see a use to the Vanguards to equip them with Arquebuses though, the synergy is better with the Rangers because of the longer range of their guns.
I would only use the un-helmeted head for a special weapon. The guy with the Omnispex still has to carry a Carbine or Rifle. And if you're playing tourney rules, then you might have to have WYSIWYG.
I am gearing up for the last two weeks of my FLGS Escalation League. Here is the list I am pondering for Week 6 and the 2000pt Tournament that will follow:
HQ:
Cawl
[250]
Elites:
Cybernetica Datasmith
Gamma, Power Fist
[52]
Drop some robots and vanguard upgrades and get more bodies or you'll, heh, get bodied. You have to have at least 15 dudes to screen a first turn charge.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Drop some robots and vanguard upgrades and get more bodies or you'll, heh, get bodied. You have to have at least 15 dudes to screen a first turn charge.
More details needed. Who will be getting a T1 charge and how? It seems unlikely. My metagame is much more oriented to flyer spam, Guard, and Marines. We do have a few 'Cron, Tau and Ork players too.
Aaranis wrote: I don't see a use to the Vanguards to equip them with Arquebuses though, the synergy is better with the Rangers because of the longer range of their guns.
I certainly agree for right now. I think it would be more of a future flexibility option if things change down the road.
rvd1ofakind wrote: Drop some robots and vanguard upgrades and get more bodies or you'll, heh, get bodied. You have to have at least 15 dudes to screen a first turn charge.
More details needed. Who will be getting a T1 charge and how? It seems unlikely. My metagame is much more oriented to flyer spam, Guard, and Marines. We do have a few 'Cron, Tau and Ork players too.
Well flyer spam is a little dead atm. But I have 2 nids players, turn 1 goes like this: tyranocite with swarmlord, trygons with genestealers and gaunts, mawloc. Turn 2 the other part of the horde is already in charge range
rvd1ofakind wrote: Drop some robots and vanguard upgrades and get more bodies or you'll, heh, get bodied. You have to have at least 15 dudes to screen a first turn charge.
More details needed. Who will be getting a T1 charge and how? It seems unlikely. My metagame is much more oriented to flyer spam, Guard, and Marines. We do have a few 'Cron, Tau and Ork players too.
Well flyer spam is a little dead atm. But I have 2 nids players, turn 1 goes like this: tyranocite with swarmlord, trygons with genestealers and gaunts, mawloc. Turn 2 the other part of the horde is already in charge range
Not sure we have any 'Nid players locally, which is a shame because the army is so cool looking.
I can't imagine a basic screen of my Vanguard and Rangers can't keep them back for a turn. That is all about deployment at that point - using my 12" long band of Vanguard and my 15.6" long band of Rangers to screen my front line out about ~5" from my stuff, so even if they get the first turn charge, they can't reach me on consolidation (ideally).
Suzuteo wrote:Orks and Marines actually might find it advantageous to get into CC with your dudes. Way better than trying to outshoot you.
They got to get there. That is the challenge - mostly for Orks. If I get even one solid turn in Protector, I am tossing 108 shots, 81 likely hitting due to Cawl's re-rolls. Which equates to 54 dead Orks in a single round. Not exactly something I think most Ork armies can handle. Then Overwatch will net me another 21 dead Orks. 75 dead Boyz in a turn is usually a fair chunk of whatever horde they might bring. No cover, no armor - unless they bring a KFF or some such. Still winds up being an awful lot of punishment and that is before Icarus shots.
Marines tend to do better, but don't usually have the numbers. I flat out tabled my last Marine opponent off weight of dice on turn 4 with just two Robots (lower point game). At 2k with eight Robots, I can't imagine how staggering it will be against more elite armies on weight of dice alone.
Spearhead Detachment:
HQ - Cawl - 250 points
Troop - 5 vanguard - 50 points
Troop - 7 vanguard - 70 points
Elite - Cybernetica Datasmith - 52 points
Heavy - 2 Kastellan Robots, full phosphor - 220 points
Heavy - 2 Kastellan Robots, full phosphor - 220 points
Heavy - Onager Dunecrawler, iccarus - 130 points
Heavy - Onager Dunecrawler, neutron + cognis heavy stubber - 143 points
Total - 1998 points
The idea being to use the vanguard as a small screen and relying on the knight to fill in important gaps in the line. I split the robots into 2 units since having 1 unit of 3 ended up being dragged into melee too much due to small mistakes on spacing in my part. 2 units should be more forgiving. The culexus and both elysian team deep strike and add much needed mobility in early/mid game for random maelstrom needs (also linebreaker). The rune priest I'm still on the fence about. I like having the ability to case 2 spells instead of just 1 from Greyfax, and I also like the SW psyker powers more, but I'm definitely willing to switch him out for greyfax.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: I am gearing up for the last two weeks of my FLGS Escalation League. Here is the list I am pondering for Week 6 and the 2000pt Tournament that will follow:
HQ:
Cawl
[250]
Elites:
Cybernetica Datasmith
Gamma, Power Fist
[52]
Thoughts? Think it will survive my rather competitive environment?
It will not. To many robots. Id drop 2-3 of them for more troop units.
Orks can get you turn one, killing 10 guys easily then you are locked in CC and its game over. I saw a list like this and have used one like it myself. Id never go over 6 robots, and even then I think its to many robots.
Guard spam with 19 las cannons will also get you if they go first. Every robot lost is a lot less guys you will kill, and you wont be able to hit his las cannons as they will be out of your range.
str00dles1, I have shrugged off a lot of lascannon shots. They usually get one good round of shooting to neutralize my robots before I delete their units. Guard have awful saves, get no cover, and are T3. If I go first, I usually drop those squads first, because they can randomly kill a Robot in one shot (rarely). Taking less Robots means I will feel the loss even more - because right now I can lose four and still have four, which is enough to light up a whole lot of stuff.
Also, looking at the deployment maps, I just fail to see how they can reach me if I deploy wisely. I have plenty of range on my guns - I don't need to be tight to my front line with anything. So I think the idea that they can get a T1 charge relies entirely on my own deployment more than it being a guaranteed thing.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: str00dles1, I have shrugged off a lot of lascannon shots. They usually get one good round of shooting to neutralize my robots before I delete their units. Guard have awful saves, get no cover, and are T3. If I go first, I usually drop those squads first, because they can randomly kill a Robot in one shot (rarely). Taking less Robots means I will feel the loss even more - because right now I can lose four and still have four, which is enough to light up a whole lot of stuff.
Also, looking at the deployment maps, I just fail to see how they can reach me if I deploy wisely. I have plenty of range on my guns - I don't need to be tight to my front line with anything. So I think the idea that they can get a T1 charge relies entirely on my own deployment more than it being a guaranteed thing.
Orks will bring a Wierdboy and use Da Jump, and 'Ere We Go to have a pretty good shot at a first turn charge anywhere 9" away from you. Tyranids and others have similar tricks as well. How have you found the Knight? I haven't had one justify it's extreme cost yet.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: str00dles1, I have shrugged off a lot of lascannon shots. They usually get one good round of shooting to neutralize my robots before I delete their units. Guard have awful saves, get no cover, and are T3. If I go first, I usually drop those squads first, because they can randomly kill a Robot in one shot (rarely). Taking less Robots means I will feel the loss even more - because right now I can lose four and still have four, which is enough to light up a whole lot of stuff.
Also, looking at the deployment maps, I just fail to see how they can reach me if I deploy wisely. I have plenty of range on my guns - I don't need to be tight to my front line with anything. So I think the idea that they can get a T1 charge relies entirely on my own deployment more than it being a guaranteed thing.
Orks will bring a Wierdboy and use Da Jump, and 'Ere We Go to have a pretty good shot at a first turn charge anywhere 9" away from you. Tyranids and others have similar tricks as well. How have you found the Knight? I haven't had one justify it's extreme cost yet.
If they are 9" from my Skitarii (because that is what I will put out in front of my lines), they will be over 12" from my Robots (ideally), because of how I will deploy them. Even if they erase my Skitarii with shooting, they can't make the charge even on boxcars. That is why I am not as fearful of T1 charges, because you can guard against it. I know I can cluster most of my army up into a small footprint (not including Ongagers, which might wind up anchoring a side) and a 27" long band of models should wrap around this enough to deny said charge and I can always anchor with the Ballistarii too, adding another bubble of no-go.
The 'Nids worry me more. A Hive Tyrant with Wings in a Tyrannocite could get into my stuff pretty fast and they sling some nasty, high damage attacks. Trygon enabling some Troops squads (Stealers...) also would be an issue.
Can't bring LoW in this league, so no time with a Knight yet. When my next league kicks off, there is no restriction so I will likely bring one (or maybe go for three...).
Suzuteo wrote: @em_en_oh_pee
5 Rangers and 5 Vanguard though? Pretty sure Orks can wipe those before Da Jump charging into your face.
If things are looking really grim, the Elysian special weapon team can stand in front of people and die about as well as vanguard, only 51 points. But I see your point, this list is very very screening-light, though it is obviously slanted toward the strategy of shooting them as much as possible with artillery.
Suzuteo wrote: @em_en_oh_pee
5 Rangers and 5 Vanguard though? Pretty sure Orks can wipe those before Da Jump charging into your face.
If things are looking really grim, the Elysian special weapon team can stand in front of people and die about as well as vanguard, only 51 points. But I see your point, this list is very very screening-light, though it is obviously slanted toward the strategy of shooting them as much as possible with artillery.
There are way too many good deep strike and CC threats to not take screening seriously. Furthermore, we've seen that Kastelan spam lists do not work in tournaments, so I do not think there is any reason to believe that we will find more success with them.
Suzuteo wrote: @em_en_oh_pee
5 Rangers and 5 Vanguard though? Pretty sure Orks can wipe those before Da Jump charging into your face.
If things are looking really grim, the Elysian special weapon team can stand in front of people and die about as well as vanguard, only 51 points. But I see your point, this list is very very screening-light, though it is obviously slanted toward the strategy of shooting them as much as possible with artillery.
There are way too many good deep strike and CC threats to not take screening seriously. Furthermore, we've seen that Kastelan spam lists do not work in tournaments, so I do not think there is any reason to believe that we will find more success with them.
We have seen what? One tournament done by a slew of WAAC players with terrible spam lists in a wonky format? Sorry, I am not taking any tourney results with anything less than a truckload of salt until we get a few months deep in the edition. Way too early still.
Suzuteo wrote:@em_en_oh_pee
5 Rangers and 5 Vanguard though? Pretty sure Orks can wipe those before Da Jump charging into your face.
In theory, they can. Sure. Not much I can do about that even if I take a whole bunch of Skitarii. They are pretty awful. I would need to run legit Conscript blobs to block that off, which I won't do because they have no official model, defeat the purpose of my army (not going for huge model count) and are off-theme and out of faction. That looks to be a major issue for our faction and it sounds like we will need to be extremely smart about deployment. Ensuring we set up on the table so we can have our Skitarii forward behind LoS blocking terrain will help keep them from being shot off the board and still give us a bubble that pushes deep strikers back.
Suzuteo wrote: @em_en_oh_pee
5 Rangers and 5 Vanguard though? Pretty sure Orks can wipe those before Da Jump charging into your face.
If things are looking really grim, the Elysian special weapon team can stand in front of people and die about as well as vanguard, only 51 points. But I see your point, this list is very very screening-light, though it is obviously slanted toward the strategy of shooting them as much as possible with artillery.
There are way too many good deep strike and CC threats to not take screening seriously. Furthermore, we've seen that Kastelan spam lists do not work in tournaments, so I do not think there is any reason to believe that we will find more success with them.
We have seen what? One tournament done by a slew of WAAC players with terrible spam lists in a wonky format? Sorry, I am not taking any tourney results with anything less than a truckload of salt until we get a few months deep in the edition. Way too early still.
Suzuteo wrote:@em_en_oh_pee
5 Rangers and 5 Vanguard though? Pretty sure Orks can wipe those before Da Jump charging into your face.
In theory, they can. Sure. Not much I can do about that even if I take a whole bunch of Skitarii. They are pretty awful. I would need to run legit Conscript blobs to block that off, which I won't do because they have no official model, defeat the purpose of my army (not going for huge model count) and are off-theme and out of faction. That looks to be a major issue for our faction and it sounds like we will need to be extremely smart about deployment. Ensuring we set up on the table so we can have our Skitarii forward behind LoS blocking terrain will help keep them from being shot off the board and still give us a bubble that pushes deep strikers back.
I don't think it's the spam itself that loses. It's lists without screens that lose. We've seen them in our own local play and at the tournament level.
It's not theory. If you go to the Ork threads, they are very well aware that Da Jump and Ere We Go for a virtually guaranteed deep strike charge is amazingly good. (Remember, it teleports ANY Ork infantry unit, including stuff like Meganobz.) In fact, after one or two games getting shot up by Kastelans, any player will learn that getting virtually anything into CC with a Kastelan is a high priority. My personal fear is Coldstar Commander, which can advance 40" past my screen, shoot because of Mont'ka, and then punch my Kastelan in the face (he's safe for one turn because Protector stops me from falling back); next turn, fall back and shoot again thanks to Fly.
My solution is to use Dragoons and Crusader with Shroudpsalm to screen. I am of the belief that things that don't want to get into CC should not be used as a screen because sometimes, the best way to stop a charge is to charge yourself first.
Jaynen wrote: Whats the general opinion on Ruststalkers/infiltrators.
Worth having both?
They're both good but have different uses. The Infiltrators you'll want mostly as your mobile force, they can Infiltrate and they're the only AdMech units who do this, so this is useful to appear behind enemy lines to grab objectives or harass artillery/support. The Tasers/Flechettes loadout is good, it can send a lot of attacks with the Tesla rule but against heavily armoured opponents (talking about 3+ or 2+ save) they won't do much. Don't underestimate the Flechette Blasters however, you can have 25 shots at S3 with your unit of five and depending on the target you may be able to either slaughter a squad of light armoured troops or finish off one or two wounds on something you want dead. Got like 7 dead Pathfinders with a salvo of 20 shots once, and my dice weren't that good. They're pistols too, so if they survive a round of CC they can shoot it point-blank in the fight too. The Power Swords/stubber combo I've never tried (I play wysiwyg) but obviously it's going to be best against Marines and the likes because of the AP. You'll hit on S4 and not S6 though, but what you'll hurt you'll hurt well given they'll mostly get no armour saves. If I remember well they're cheaper than the Tasers too.
As for the Ruststalkers, I've only used them twice since I bought them recently but I think they're invaluable. They're your mortal wounds dispensers, ideal defense against deep striking Terminators and the like. I use mine with the Razors and Chordclaws, as I think it's the best loadout, hitting on S5 with the Swords is not worth it compared for the chance to do D3 mortal Wounds with the Chordclaw. In the two games I've used them they made more than their points back. Don't expect them to last long however, you must move them cleverly to get to your targets, charge it, slaughter/cripple it and then it's your luck if they don't get shot off or charged back, they're as flimsy as Skitarii can be. Still, 100 pts for five murder machines like that (with the Chordclaws/Razors) are well worth it. They'll remove any well armoured treats under the weight of attacks. Especially good against Terminators or troops with 3++ saves. We don't have many ways to deal mortal wounds in the AdMech apart from the Volkite Blaster, the Arquebus and the explosions of our vehicles (pro tip: don't rely on them), so I'll never have a list without them from now on.
Jaynen wrote: Whats the general opinion on Ruststalkers/infiltrators.
Worth having both?
I personally recommend OC Plasma Scions instead.
They don't have the same role. You'll want a Command Squad with Plasma/Melta to drop behind an enemy's tank/monster and use the Tempestor with command rod to re-roll your 1s to Hit and Wound. After they do that they'll end up getting shot 80% of the time, they're a suicide squad mostly. Infiltrators and Ruststalkers are not made to destroy tanks, the Infiltrators are for well, Infiltration and can deal with hordes pretty nicely, and so they'll be a little harder to kill if you manage a 9" charge. Ruststalkers are a protection in your lines against things like Terminators with Storm Shields, they're a counter charge unit. That said, you could have both Sicarians and the Scions, that's what I do and it's working fine. I'd recommend trying to fit the Scions in a Vanguard Detachment with two other Imperium Elites so that you don't mix them up with the Mechanicus and lose the Canticles.
Jaynen wrote: Whats the general opinion on Ruststalkers/infiltrators.
Worth having both?
They're both good but have different uses. The Infiltrators you'll want mostly as your mobile force, they can Infiltrate and they're the only AdMech units who do this, so this is useful to appear behind enemy lines to grab objectives or harass artillery/support. The Tasers/Flechettes loadout is good, it can send a lot of attacks with the Tesla rule but against heavily armoured opponents (talking about 3+ or 2+ save) they won't do much. Don't underestimate the Flechette Blasters however, you can have 25 shots at S3 with your unit of five and depending on the target you may be able to either slaughter a squad of light armoured troops or finish off one or two wounds on something you want dead. Got like 7 dead Pathfinders with a salvo of 20 shots once, and my dice weren't that good. They're pistols too, so if they survive a round of CC they can shoot it point-blank in the fight too. The Power Swords/stubber combo I've never tried (I play wysiwyg) but obviously it's going to be best against Marines and the likes because of the AP. You'll hit on S4 and not S6 though, but what you'll hurt you'll hurt well given they'll mostly get no armour saves. If I remember well they're cheaper than the Tasers too.
As for the Ruststalkers, I've only used them twice since I bought them recently but I think they're invaluable. They're your mortal wounds dispensers, ideal defense against deep striking Terminators and the like. I use mine with the Razors and Chordclaws, as I think it's the best loadout, hitting on S5 with the Swords is not worth it compared for the chance to do D3 mortal Wounds with the Chordclaw. In the two games I've used them they made more than their points back. Don't expect them to last long however, you must move them cleverly to get to your targets, charge it, slaughter/cripple it and then it's your luck if they don't get shot off or charged back, they're as flimsy as Skitarii can be. Still, 100 pts for five murder machines like that (with the Chordclaws/Razors) are well worth it. They'll remove any well armoured treats under the weight of attacks. Especially good against Terminators or troops with 3++ saves. We don't have many ways to deal mortal wounds in the AdMech apart from the Volkite Blaster, the Arquebus and the explosions of our vehicles (pro tip: don't rely on them), so I'll never have a list without them from now on.
I would encourage you to try Fulgurite Electropriests if you're looking for mortal wounds. They're cheaper, and in many cases more survivable with the 5++/5+++. They're a bit slower, but we're mainly talking about the enemy coming to us anyway. The last several games I've used them they've charged a weakened transport near my front line to activate their 3++ first turn, then wiped out a couple squads before going down.
I would encourage you to try Fulgurite Electropriests if you're looking for mortal wounds. They're cheaper, and in many cases more survivable with the 5++/5+++. They're a bit slower, but we're mainly talking about the enemy coming to us anyway. The last several games I've used them they've charged a weakened transport near my front line to activate their 3++ first turn, then wiped out a couple squads before going down.
You're right, I'd like to try them sometime. I need to buy at least 10 to make them effective, and I was waiting for a chance to have a transport someday for us (let us pray the Omnissiah). They're really interesting too ! I just loved the looks of the Sicarians better haha
You're right, I'd like to try them sometime. I need to buy at least 10 to make them effective, and I was waiting for a chance to have a transport someday for us (let us pray the Omnissiah). They're really interesting too ! I just loved the looks of the Sicarians better haha
I'd agree with that. They're much easier to paint as well.
You're right, I'd like to try them sometime. I need to buy at least 10 to make them effective, and I was waiting for a chance to have a transport someday for us (let us pray the Omnissiah). They're really interesting too ! I just loved the looks of the Sicarians better haha
I'd agree with that. They're much easier to paint as well.
I think they're pretty easy to paint, half of the model is Leadbelcher with touches of Brass Scorpion for me, then I apply Nuln Oil and that's half the model. Don't know, Infiltrators weren't hard I find.
Jaynen wrote:So try a unit of electro priests vs the rust stalkers for the melee/anti charger role?
How do you need to kit them out?
Electro-priests: with the staves, they're the Fulgurite variants. For Ruststalkers: Razors and Chordclaws. I see no reason to have the twin Swords just for S5, S5 is in a very special place with the new wounding values. Chordclaws give one attack that gives D3 mortal wounds, that's more than one attack from a sword any time.
Let's compare the two units for curiosity, not trying to prove a point or anything, no Mathammer because I don't know how it works sorry.
5 Ruststalkers outfitted with Chordclaws and Transonic Razors, 100 pts, 10W, T3, 4+/6++ saves. 8" move, 16 attacks at S4, 5 of them will deal D3 mortal wounds on 6s to Wound, and 11 of them 1 mortal wound on the same result. Other results just deal 1 Damage with no AP. Ld 7 with the Princeps, 6 for the others.
5 Fulgurite Electro-Priests, 80 pts, 5W, T3, 6+/5++(turns to 3++ after wiping a unit)/5+++ saves, 6" move, 10 attacks at S5, all of them deal D3 mortal wounds on 6s to Wound, other results still deal D3 Damage with AP-2. They have a chance to deal 1 additional Mortal Wound per model with a 6 on a D6 after a successful charge. Ld 8 for all.
So our 5 Ruststalkers have twice the Wounds of the 5 Priests, but have less resilience. Any weapon with a decent AP (which their targets will have most of the time) will make quick work of their saves, but two wounds need to be taken off before removing a model. They have no means to counter mortal wounds themselves, whereas the Priests have a 5+ save. The real power of the Priests comes after wiping out a unit, and it's easier than it looks in some cases, like said earlier, just finishing off a light vehicle or a small squad will ensure that. After that they'll become as resilient as Terminators with Storm Shields (my bane), with a lower T but with chances to ignore wounds with the 5+ save. An earlier poster many pages ago talked about how his Priests were unstoppable after securing their 3++, and I believe that. I played an apocalypse game yesterday where whe had the full 1st Company of the Blood Angels in our side, 100+ Terminators. Nothing could break the line.
After this comparison I'd say no units surpasses the other, but I reckon I'm considering the Priests with a better look now. They are each to be used differently in my opinion, Rustalkers have the number of attacks and the speed, however their large bases make them hard to hide from enemy fire. In the few games I had they had their targets, did the job and then promptly died with honour. Priests are easier to hide, and can be taken in big units. I'd say a minimum of 10 would be recommended, they're still somewhat flimsy by the time they kill that unit, so they'll have less impact if there's only 2 alive after that. 10-15 Priests with 3++ /5+++ saves will be really hard to stop and the enemy WILL have to deal with your 160-240 pts blob of murder machines.
As soon as we have a decent transport I'd daresay the Priests will do the CC duty at the front lines while the Ruststalkers are best left guarding your artillery, using their speed to meet any threat appearing in the rear guard.
Congrats you'll have me buy some now haha I think I'll change their heads though, not a fan of the blue bald blind guys (hope the adjectives were in the right order). Sorry for the big post I always get carried away
Jaynen wrote: Whats the general opinion on Ruststalkers/infiltrators.
Worth having both?
I personally recommend OC Plasma Scions instead.
They don't have the same role. You'll want a Command Squad with Plasma/Melta to drop behind an enemy's tank/monster and use the Tempestor with command rod to re-roll your 1s to Hit and Wound. After they do that they'll end up getting shot 80% of the time, they're a suicide squad mostly. Infiltrators and Ruststalkers are not made to destroy tanks, the Infiltrators are for well, Infiltration and can deal with hordes pretty nicely, and so they'll be a little harder to kill if you manage a 9" charge. Ruststalkers are a protection in your lines against things like Terminators with Storm Shields, they're a counter charge unit. That said, you could have both Sicarians and the Scions, that's what I do and it's working fine. I'd recommend trying to fit the Scions in a Vanguard Detachment with two other Imperium Elites so that you don't mix them up with the Mechanicus and lose the Canticles.
Well, we don't need Deep Strike anti-horde. We need Deep Strike anti-tank and anti-character.
Your point on Ruststalkers is correct though. Not sure if they are point efficient enough though. I would much rather have another Arquebus squad for anti-character.
So BAO was an interesting learning experience, didnt do as well as hoped but learned some new ideas
Vanguard/rangers: mainly useless now, die too fast on their own, with the leadership hit, would die even worse with squads more than 5 man, dont take any unless you take a unit of ranger with Arquebusses, those things are honestly great
Kataphrons: Probably still wont use, them, not worth the points with their weapons now.
Fulgurite Priest: holy crap are these guys good, as counter charge or marching them up the field after they kill something, mine slapped the hell out of a Solitaire and then mobbed around the board
Cawl: Good for what he does, but the FNP removal hurts, If anything his invuln should be upgraded to 4++, but still good
Dominius: Necessary tax, good backup if cawl bites it
Kastellans: Dude, the shooty ones, holy crap, mow down anything and take a beating, all the reflects and all the shots, these guys are great, dropping my knight to take more because honestly, one of these guys is better than an avenger gatling
Dunecrawlers: Both the Neutron and the Iccarus ones worked out amazingly, just as good as we're all saying
Our main issue is mobility, by dropping the Knight for 3 bots, 1 crawler, a unit of infiltrators and a ironstrider, should make up the punch and add more mobility/objective grabbing to the army.
Dropping the battalion detachment and 1 command point for an Vanguard and a Spearhead, mainly so i dont have to take any troops except for the aforementioned ranger sniper squad
Do you mind posting your army list and number of points? I might be running something similar for my first game (going up against mainly Space Marines) and I wouldn't mind some feedback:
I think it is a mistake to drop the Knight. They are also really good. They are mobile, shoot well (I like TC+AGC), fight well (Feet > Reaper in most cases), got a massive base to screen with, and are a great distraction.
Mr. Funktastic wrote: Do you mind posting your army list and number of points? I might be running something similar for my first game (going up against mainly Space Marines) and I wouldn't mind some feedback:
Dude, what are you doing with your vanguard. Never run any upgrades on them. The only one I'd accept even as a remote posibility is plasma.
Agreed. These sorts of upgrades would only be efficient in a maximum squad, but right now, they're too expensive and too vulnerable in numbers. We have nothing like Commissars to protect us from failed morale rolls. Here's hoping the Secutarii Peltasts have crazy good combi-weapons and some form of bubble shield. Might be our only chance for decent infantry.
The more I think about it the more I believe our troops are severely overcosted. 10 pts/model for a Vanguard compared to a 7 pts Kabalite Warrior:
Kabalite: 7" Move, WS 3+, BS 3+, T3, 1W, 1 Attack (2 for sergeant), Ld 7 (8 for sergeant), 5+ save and 6+++ from turn one.
Vanguard/Ranger: 6" Move, WS 4+, BS 3+, T3, 1W, 1 Attack (2 for sergeant), Ld 6 (7 for sergeant), 4+/6++ saves
So we are paying 3 pts more per model for what, a better save ? I wouldn't even call it better because the Kabalite have a mean to ignore mortal wounds and we don't. What's more, the Kabalite can buy more special weapons and embark on a transport whereas we don't yet. They even fight better in CC.
Same thing for Fire Warriors, 8 pts/model, but they have WS 5+ and BS4+, but have a way better way to deal with Morale and better base guns than us. For a 4+ save too.
Really hoping they will lower points value for our troops, or at least give us Forge-World tactics or stratagems that allow us to buff them like the old Imperatives.
Vanguard always have cover due to the CotO buff(so they are 3+ vs shooting) and have the -1 toughness aura. Also Morale doesn't really matter as you should run 5 man units anyway.
Not saying they are great, just pointing out some important things you missed
Makes sense to run the vanguard naked, but I'm just not sure what to do with the extra 27 points in that case. Guess I'll think of something! Rest of the list looks good otherwise?
rvd1ofakind wrote: Vanguard always have cover due to the CotO buff(so they are 3+ vs shooting) and have the -1 toughness aura. Also Morale doesn't really matter as you should run 5 man units anyway.
Not saying they are great, just pointing out some important things you missed
The Canticle lasts for a turn, not always (except if you roll it several time but that would be a waste considering the other nice canticles), true for the -1T aura but it's only true in CC and you'll need a dedicated melee unit to exploit that malus. Once they get charged they'll get slaughtered most of the time too. And that may be true for Vanguards but Rangers have lost their special rules. They got cheaper by 1 point but Vanguard got more expensive by 1 point so what's the point (no pun intended) ?
We COULD have bigger units if Morale wasn't a issue like it is, there's a few reasons we'd like to have bigger units: more special weapons, more bodies to protect the special weapons, fewer detachment slots required if you want a quantity of infantry in your Troops choices. We HAVE to run min squads because of the costs of the units, their poor morale and so their inefficiency. We wouldn't have to run min squads if they were properly balanced. Personnaly I don't like the looks of 5 man squads, and they're not really efficient either as you'll get shot three times and lose more than half your fire power.
What other nice canticles? Shroudpsalm is the only one that will be good always. Others are niche. I usually roll for it after I choose it turn 1 unless I have multiple units in CC (since half of our buffs are CC related for some reason...), the re-roll 1s in shooting is irrelevant due to cawl and I don't even remember the 6th one off the top of my head showing how awful it is.
Mr. Funktastic wrote: Do you mind posting your army list and number of points? I might be running something similar for my first game (going up against mainly Space Marines) and I wouldn't mind some feedback:
That is almost the exact list I am running for my Week 4 today for the Escalation League at my shop. Probably a good sign they are similar (posted below). I honestly don't know about Dragoons, but the addition of them as a screen unit seems actually not bad. They aren't killing anything, just tying stuff up. Might have to give those a go.
Spoiler:
HQ:
Cawl
[250]
Elites:
Cybernetica Datasmith
Gamma, Power Fist
[52]
(10) Fulgurite Priests
[160]
Troops:
(5) Rangers
2x Arquebus, Omnispex
[107]
Heavy:
(3) Kastelan Robot
Triple Heavy Phosphor Blasters
[330]
(2) Kastelan Robot
Triple Heavy Phosphor Blasters
[220]
rvd1ofakind wrote: Maybe toss the cognis upgrades on Onagers as well(I assume only Icarus has that ar the moment in your list).
The Balistarii aren't great but you could do a lot worse, I guess
The ironstrider is there for relatively cheap AV and mobility, park him at an objective or near Cawl and take shots against important targets.
If I went for naked vanguards, I could probably drop a dragoon (since I only really need one for mobility and tying up shooty vehicles and other ranged units) and have 2 dakkastelans and 2 fist kastelans, or I could sacrifice the extra melee threat and reliable AV and go all in with 4 dakkastelans. At least there's some reasonable options.
rvd1ofakind wrote: What other nice canticles? Shroudpsalm is the only one that will be good always. Others are niche. I usually roll for it after I choose it turn 1 unless I have multiple units in CC (since half of our buffs are CC related for some reason...), the re-roll 1s in shooting is irrelevant due to cawl and I don't even remember the 6th one off the top of my head showing how awful it is.
Edit: lol morale, sure mate
Because a good chunk of our army is CC-oriented. Sicarians, Fulgurites, Cawl, Dominus, Fistelans for those who want. Cawl's bubble is not 30" wide so yes it have a use. There's a canticle to reroll failed Morale tests too.
What "lol morale, sure mate" ? I'm getting tired of your latent passive-aggressive tone that's gone on for as long as I remember in this thread, don't know if I'm the only one but whatever, thinking you own the universal truth about how the army works. It's not encouraging to have an argument about 40k with people like you.
rvd1ofakind wrote: What other nice canticles? Shroudpsalm is the only one that will be good always. Others are niche. I usually roll for it after I choose it turn 1 unless I have multiple units in CC (since half of our buffs are CC related for some reason...), the re-roll 1s in shooting is irrelevant due to cawl and I don't even remember the 6th one off the top of my head showing how awful it is.
Edit: lol morale, sure mate
Because a good chunk of our army is CC-oriented. Sicarians, Fulgurites, Cawl, Dominus, Fistelans for those who want. Cawl's bubble is not 30" wide so yes it have a use. There's a canticle to reroll failed Morale tests too.
What "lol morale, sure mate" ? I'm getting tired of your latent passive-aggressive tone that's gone on for as long as I remember in this thread, don't know if I'm the only one but whatever, thinking you own the universal truth about how the army works. It's not encouraging to have an argument about 40k with people like you.
The last bit was mocking the one canticle I forgot for how utterly terrible it is. What, are you going to predict you will fail morale tests on your opponents turn? That'll just make decisions easier for him to just finish off every unit. Also morale is almost a non-factor for AdMech because of how small units are model wise. You only fail on a 6 or 5 at worst.
And our CC orientated units are all worse than other armies due to 0 mobility and survivability. Mobility/Survivability is actually a lot more important than damage for CC units. Index AdMech wants to sit and shoot and that's it. That may well change in the Codex but for now our CC unts are a complete joke.
Also I've yet to shoot a single relevant gun(read "Phosphor"/"Neutron"/"Icarus"/"Sniper rifle") not in range of Cawl
Also I'm active-agressive against what I consider to be bad advice for players reading a thread.
I don't really want to run lots of blandguard, but they came in my starter boxes and you guys keep mentioning how important screening is and deep strike protection.
Im definitely building the 5man ranger squad with the two sniper rifles
I have 2 crawlers one neutron one icarus
I am picking up some fulgurites instead of rust stalkers for some counter charge and melee blobbing.
I kind of want a unity of kastellans+datasmith setup dakka style just because I like the models even
I also sort of want to run a knight crusader eventually for the same reason
I like the idea of the deepstrike infiltrators or scions. I should probably play with what I have before I buy too much stuff tho
Aaranis wrote: The more I think about it the more I believe our troops are severely overcosted. 10 pts/model for a Vanguard compared to a 7 pts Kabalite Warrior:
Kabalite: 7" Move, WS 3+, BS 3+, T3, 1W, 1 Attack (2 for sergeant), Ld 7 (8 for sergeant), 5+ save and 6+++ from turn one.
Vanguard/Ranger: 6" Move, WS 4+, BS 3+, T3, 1W, 1 Attack (2 for sergeant), Ld 6 (7 for sergeant), 4+/6++ saves
So we are paying 3 pts more per model for what, a better save ? I wouldn't even call it better because the Kabalite have a mean to ignore mortal wounds and we don't. What's more, the Kabalite can buy more special weapons and embark on a transport whereas we don't yet. They even fight better in CC.
Same thing for Fire Warriors, 8 pts/model, but they have WS 5+ and BS4+, but have a way better way to deal with Morale and better base guns than us. For a 4+ save too.
Really hoping they will lower points value for our troops, or at least give us Forge-World tactics or stratagems that allow us to buff them like the old Imperatives.
I hear you and have said the same thing on Bolter and Chainsword about the skitarii. though the cabalite warriors are a good example I have yet to think of. for me and the local GW power level is the main deciding factor for pick up games, and even there where all upgrades are technically free the skitarii fail when compared to guard.
for example we really need screening for our heavy tanks and vehicles, and the blandguard are 8 PL for 10 guys with all the problems you have listed... when for 5 PL we can get 20 conscripts with a commisar backing them up, giving us a screen of admitting useless infantry that is made for it's job... standing in front of an oncoming tide of genestealers or giving us a bubble wrap against deep-strikers. Sure, they will get slaughtered, but for one power more than a squad of five guys you can really see how it would be a good addition in place of the vanguard, right? it also gives us at least 3 PL that we can invest in with an IG infantry squad, giving us 10 more bodies, a HWT / Special weapon, and filling out another troop slot.
plus, with the edition change a rad-carbine is basically a lasgun trying to overcompensate.
Vanguard x5 no upgrades
Vanguard x 5 no upgrades
Rangers X 5 no upgrades (didnt have another 5 vanguard models, didnt want to buy more)
Rangers X5, 2 Arquebus, omnispex
Fulgurite Priests X10
Datasmith
Kastellan X3, phosphor/phosphor
Dunecrawler - Neutron/stubber, smoke
Dunecrawler - Icarrus/Smoke
Knight Crusader - Gatling/Battle Cannon, Stubber x2, heavy flamer
Vanguard x5 no upgrades
Vanguard x 5 no upgrades
Rangers X 5 no upgrades (didnt have another 5 vanguard models, didnt want to buy more)
Rangers X5, 2 Arquebus, omnispex
Fulgurite Priests X10
Datasmith
Kastellan X3, phosphor/phosphor
Dunecrawler - Neutron/stubber, smoke
Dunecrawler - Icarrus/Smoke
Knight Crusader - Gatling/Battle Cannon, Stubber x2, heavy flamer
Vanguard x5 no upgrades
Vanguard x 5 no upgrades
Rangers X 5 no upgrades (didnt have another 5 vanguard models, didnt want to buy more)
Rangers X5, 2 Arquebus, omnispex
Fulgurite Priests X10
Datasmith
Kastellan X3, phosphor/phosphor
Dunecrawler - Neutron/stubber, smoke
Dunecrawler - Icarrus/Smoke
Knight Crusader - Gatling/Battle Cannon, Stubber x2, heavy flamer
How did you do?
Not too great due to some dumb mistakes and hard counters and crappy opponent draws. Learned a lot though about 8th
rvd1ofakind wrote: The last bit was mocking the one canticle I forgot for how utterly terrible it is. What, are you going to predict you will fail morale tests on your opponents turn? That'll just make decisions easier for him to just finish off every unit. Also morale is almost a non-factor for AdMech because of how small units are model wise. You only fail on a 6 or 5 at worst.
And our CC orientated units are all worse than other armies due to 0 mobility and survivability. Mobility/Survivability is actually a lot more important than damage for CC units. Index AdMech wants to sit and shoot and that's it. That may well change in the Codex but for now our CC unts are a complete joke.
Also I've yet to shoot a single relevant gun(read "Phosphor"/"Neutron"/"Icarus"/"Sniper rifle") not in range of Cawl
Also I'm active-agressive against what I consider to be bad advice for players reading a thread.
At least you recognise your tone is aggressive, thank you. Well I don't think I'm giving out BAD advice, I'm giving advice based on my experiences and own thinking, never have I said it was the truth to follow. Reading you, it feels like you do believe you're giving the absolute truth and undermine the opinions of others. That your advice is actually true or not is not relevant to my argument and I admit you have given good advice, it's just the tone that bothers me and so I had to say how I feel about it, it's not constructive to be aggressive and just drive people to be on the defensive while we're supposed to be objective.
Ok so how do you splash another army anyway? What are the requirements?
Am I reading Battlescribe wrong that you get 1 Tempestus and 4 scions for 50pts the same price as a 5 man unit of naked blandguard?
Its 62s pt for a 5 man unit of scions, with 2 plasma guns, 2 hot shot lasguns, 1 tempestor with chainsword and hot shot laspistol. And I think they all get deepstrike and grenades?
Its 78 pts for 1 Vanguard Alpha, 2 Skiitari Vanguard, 2 Skiitari Vanguard with Plasma Caliver
That is almost the exact list I am running for my Week 4 today for the Escalation League at my shop. Probably a good sign they are similar (posted below). I honestly don't know about Dragoons, but the addition of them as a screen unit seems actually not bad. They aren't killing anything, just tying stuff up. Might have to give those a go.
I have not had any Vanguard in my lists since late June; I replaced them with 4-6 Dragoons. I think I have flogged the horse for awhile, but I cannot underscore how important a role they fill for our armies. They are cheap, mobile, tough, got a big base, and not afraid to get into a fight. Their job is not to kill things; that is what your Kastelans, Knights, and Crawlers do. They are to prevent early charges, grab objectives after artillery has softened them up, and tie up shooting units and characters. They are the quintessential force multiplier.
Jaynen wrote: Ok so how do you splash another army anyway? What are the requirements?
Am I reading Battlescribe wrong that you get 1 Tempestus and 4 scions for 50pts the same price as a 5 man unit of naked blandguard?
Its 62s pt for a 5 man unit of scions, with 2 plasma guns, 2 hot shot lasguns, 1 tempestor with chainsword and hot shot laspistol. And I think they all get deepstrike and grenades?
Its 78 pts for 1 Vanguard Alpha, 2 Skiitari Vanguard, 2 Skiitari Vanguard with Plasma Caliver
You just need to fulfill requirements for a SEPARATE detachment. (If you mix units into AdMech, you lose Canticles, which means no Shroudpsalm, which really sucks for you.)
For Scions, I usually take this detachment:
Patrol Detachment - 164
I am really new so can you explain more what you mean about separate detachment? Thats the things you have to fill up for CP or something?
Also I know you cant shroudpsalm the tempestus or you mean you lose those things entirely?
Also why not the scion command squad vs the 2 scions troops?
But you are not taking these to replace your dragoons, but you run a lot of dragoons, if doing a separate detachment anyway would rough riders or something else be worth it?
What about using the Taurox Prime that comes with the Tempestus Start collecting kit
Just financially I cant run Dragoons right now
I have 2 start collecting skiitari
and now 1 start collecting Tempestus on order
Belisarius Cawl on order
Unit of 5 fulgurites on order
I think my next thing needs to be a set of Kastellans with the data smith
Jaynen wrote: I am really new so can you explain more what you mean about separate detachment? Thats the things you have to fill up for CP or something?
Also I know you cant shroudpsalm the tempestus or you mean you lose those things entirely?
Also why not the scion command squad vs the 2 scions troops?
But you are not taking these to replace your dragoons, but you run a lot of dragoons, if doing a separate detachment anyway would rough riders or something else be worth it?
What about using the Taurox Prime that comes with the Tempestus Start collecting kit
Just financially I cant run Dragoons right now
I have 2 start collecting skiitari
and now 1 start collecting Tempestus on order
Belisarius Cawl on order
Unit of 5 fulgurites on order
I think my next thing needs to be a set of Kastellans with the data smith
In AdMech armies, detachments must be 100% AdMech in order to use Canticles of the Omnissiah. This is because Canticles requires all units in a detachment to have the Canticles ability, and only AdMech units have it. Scions are not AdMech, so they do not have Canticles. Thus, Scions cannot benefit from Canticles, and Scions take Canticles away from units with Canticles if they are mixed into the same detachment as those units.
HOLY SMOKES. I just reread the Command Squad and realized that you don't need a Tempestor Prime anymore, and those guys can have FOUR plasma guns! Definitely do this instead:
I run Dragoons because I need a screening unit. They pair well with my Knight Crusader. Other screening units you can consider include 50-60 Conscripts with a Commissar (you have to commit to tabling the enemy though), 3x5 Vanguard, or 2x5 Fulgurites.
You'll need multiple Tempestors Prime, errata from the 1st FAQ:
ERRATA
Page 10 – Astra Militarum Army List
Add the following rule:
‘Matched Play – Command Squads
If you are playing a matched play game, a Battle-forged
army can include a maximum of one <Regiment>
Command Squad (pg 15) in a Detachment for each
<Regiment> Officer in that Detachment. Similarly,
if you are playing a matched play game, a Battleforged
army can include a maximum of one Militarum
Tempestus Command Squad (pg 51) in a Detachment
for each Tempestor Prime (pg 50) in that Detachment.’
They've been nerfed and justly so. Anyway, you'd still need one Tempestor per unit to give them the double orders (reroll 1s to Hit and reroll 1s to Wound). I've been running my unit with two plasmas and two meltas, the damage varies more greatly than with full Overcharge plasma but you may be able to deal up to 12 damage at AP-4 with a single salvo of the two meltas. If your guys survive a round miraculously you can even get them closer to shoot with the half-range bonus.
Aaranis wrote: You'll need multiple Tempestors Prime, errata from the 1st FAQ:
ERRATA
Page 10 – Astra Militarum Army List
Add the following rule:
‘Matched Play – Command Squads
If you are playing a matched play game, a Battle-forged
army can include a maximum of one <Regiment>
Command Squad (pg 15) in a Detachment for each
<Regiment> Officer in that Detachment. Similarly,
if you are playing a matched play game, a Battleforged
army can include a maximum of one Militarum
Tempestus Command Squad (pg 51) in a Detachment
for each Tempestor Prime (pg 50) in that Detachment.’
They've been nerfed and justly so. Anyway, you'd still need one Tempestor per unit to give them the double orders (reroll 1s to Hit and reroll 1s to Wound). I've been running my unit with two plasmas and two meltas, the damage varies more greatly than with full Overcharge plasma but you may be able to deal up to 12 damage at AP-4 with a single salvo of the two meltas. If your guys survive a round miraculously you can even get them closer to shoot with the half-range bonus.
Ah. Thanks for that.
Interesting. The mathcraft seems to favor plasma guns though, especially since you would be in Rapid Fire range and have two orders. =\
To be fair, you could drop the power swird and fist for 2 pladma guns in the third squad but. Thats the models I have.
Also how are you giving them re-roll hit and wound. I thought a unit can only benefit from 1 order? The command rod just allows you to give 2 orders? Did I miss the part about gicing 2 orders to the same unit?
That is almost the exact list I am running for my Week 4 today for the Escalation League at my shop. Probably a good sign they are similar (posted below). I honestly don't know about Dragoons, but the addition of them as a screen unit seems actually not bad. They aren't killing anything, just tying stuff up. Might have to give those a go.
I have not had any Vanguard in my lists since late June; I replaced them with 4-6 Dragoons. I think I have flogged the horse for awhile, but I cannot underscore how important a role they fill for our armies. They are cheap, mobile, tough, got a big base, and not afraid to get into a fight. Their job is not to kill things; that is what your Kastelans, Knights, and Crawlers do. They are to prevent early charges, grab objectives after artillery has softened them up, and tie up shooting units and characters. They are the quintessential force multiplier.
I am going to have to give this a try, honestly. I think they would be much more effective at screening and preventing assaults because of their base size and cost. Blandguard just die. They never do anything else. For about 10pt more, I get a Dragoon. HIgher mobility, higher T, more wounds, and they have the Bionics, but also have Incense Cloud for added survival. And I think randomly that Taser Lance will kill something - a task my Skitarii have yet to do.
I think I will buy 2-3 this weekend.
And for reference, here is what I am thinking for my 1700pt Week 5 Escalation League list:
Spearhead Detachment +1
HQ:
Cawl
[250]
Elites:
Cybernetica Datasmith
Gamma, Power Fist
[52]
Insane amount of firepower right there. Those 108 shots from the Dakkastelans are just unbelievable (I saw what 90 did, I can only imagine 18 more will be unreal). The duo of Icarus should help me swat down flyers much better. I almost gutted one Stormraven in one turn with shooting, I think the two Icarus should be able to do it on their own generally. Neutronager is a duh. Going back to Infiltrators - my Fulgurites didn't get to do anything last game, but I will try them out another day. I think having their ability to pop up in the backfield is more valuable. The big change here is my two Dragoons - which will help screen and go take uncontested objectives late-game if they are alive. One squad of Vanguard just to give me a marginal extra layer of bodies should I need it.
That is almost the exact list I am running for my Week 4 today for the Escalation League at my shop. Probably a good sign they are similar (posted below). I honestly don't know about Dragoons, but the addition of them as a screen unit seems actually not bad. They aren't killing anything, just tying stuff up. Might have to give those a go.
I have not had any Vanguard in my lists since late June; I replaced them with 4-6 Dragoons. I think I have flogged the horse for awhile, but I cannot underscore how important a role they fill for our armies. They are cheap, mobile, tough, got a big base, and not afraid to get into a fight. Their job is not to kill things; that is what your Kastelans, Knights, and Crawlers do. They are to prevent early charges, grab objectives after artillery has softened them up, and tie up shooting units and characters. They are the quintessential force multiplier.
I am going to have to give this a try, honestly. I think they would be much more effective at screening and preventing assaults because of their base size and cost. Blandguard just die. They never do anything else. For about 10pt more, I get a Dragoon. HIgher mobility, higher T, more wounds, and they have the Bionics, but also have Incense Cloud for added survival. And I think randomly that Taser Lance will kill something - a task my Skitarii have yet to do.
I think I will buy 2-3 this weekend.
And for reference, here is what I am thinking for my 1700pt Week 5 Escalation League list:
Spearhead Detachment +1
HQ:
Cawl
[250]
Elites:
Cybernetica Datasmith
Gamma, Power Fist
[52]
Insane amount of firepower right there. Those 108 shots from the Dakkastelans are just unbelievable (I saw what 90 did, I can only imagine 18 more will be unreal). The duo of Icarus should help me swat down flyers much better. I almost gutted one Stormraven in one turn with shooting, I think the two Icarus should be able to do it on their own generally. Neutronager is a duh. Going back to Infiltrators - my Fulgurites didn't get to do anything last game, but I will try them out another day. I think having their ability to pop up in the backfield is more valuable. The big change here is my two Dragoons - which will help screen and go take uncontested objectives late-game if they are alive. One squad of Vanguard just to give me a marginal extra layer of bodies should I need it.
Thoughts?
Pretty standard admech list. A 2k list would just be more troops, which is the problem with this one. I don't know your meta, but if you are assaulted turn 1 or 2 you are screwed.
Yeaaaaa... pretty standard because that is really all we have.
There aren't a lot of armies that can actually pull off a T1 assault with any level of reliability. I think having the Dragoons as a screen will actually help immensely too - their big footprint should give a nice 9" no-go bubble and while under Shroudpsalm, they will be slightly harder to kill (slightly).
Turn 2 Assaults don't scare me so long as I am in Protector and have had at least one round of standard shooting (or better one round in Protector). 108 shots are simply withering with the re-rolls. Even a large mob of Boyz is going to fall to that. Same for Genestealers. Though a Podding Hive Tyrant scares the heck out of me.
I think I have enough models to make the 10-15 blandguard, I will have the 5 fulgurite but probably go to making that a unit of 10, I don't want them to die I want them to get that 3+ save so unsure I want to screen with them?
Why not take the Taurox Prime with the Scions? (I guess I am thinking because you have a model I know you cant embark admech on it)
I am going to have to give this a try, honestly. I think they would be much more effective at screening and preventing assaults because of their base size and cost. Blandguard just die. They never do anything else. For about 10pt more, I get a Dragoon. HIgher mobility, higher T, more wounds, and they have the Bionics, but also have Incense Cloud for added survival. And I think randomly that Taser Lance will kill something - a task my Skitarii have yet to do.
I think I will buy 2-3 this weekend.
And for reference, here is what I am thinking for my 1700pt Week 5 Escalation League list:
Spoiler:
Spearhead Detachment +1
HQ:
Cawl
[250]
Elites:
Cybernetica Datasmith
Gamma, Power Fist
[52]
Insane amount of firepower right there. Those 108 shots from the Dakkastelans are just unbelievable (I saw what 90 did, I can only imagine 18 more will be unreal). The duo of Icarus should help me swat down flyers much better. I almost gutted one Stormraven in one turn with shooting, I think the two Icarus should be able to do it on their own generally. Neutronager is a duh. Going back to Infiltrators - my Fulgurites didn't get to do anything last game, but I will try them out another day. I think having their ability to pop up in the backfield is more valuable. The big change here is my two Dragoons - which will help screen and go take uncontested objectives late-game if they are alive. One squad of Vanguard just to give me a marginal extra layer of bodies should I need it.
Thoughts?
If you aren't sure if you want to commit to Dragoons, proxy them with your local game group. Buy the base (same as Cawl), tape some straws to it, tell them what it is and that you're trying something. I recommend 3 to start as a replacement for the Vanguard, with up to another 3 if you want them to do more objective grabbing. (Because make no mistake, they act as your pawns and will likely die horribly to some plasma weapon, but it's one plasma volley that your Kastelans and Crawlers won't be taking.)
I would always caution someone against adding too many Kastelans. They perform great at 2 and 4, but they start to get unwieldy around 6 and 8. It's difficult to maneuver and protect them.
I'd like to try to subscribe to the Dragoon Bubble-wrap theory, but jimmeny-crikets, shelling out $50 for 68pts is just killer.
Then again, there isn't a lot in admech that is nice on the "points-per-dollar" scale. (Kastelens are "ok")
@WrentheFaceless If running Kastelens, I would probably prefer 2 units of 3... much easier to keep in the Cawl bubble, and much easier to get *other* things in the Cawl bubble.
@em_en_oh_pee
List looks pretty alright, though I probably drop the upgrades from the vanguard and the phosphor serpenta from a dragoon to upgrade one of the Icarus Onagers to a Nuetron laser. That is probably a bit meta dependant though.
Tried out Infiltrators with Powerswords this week, they did more work for me than goads. To be fair, though, my meta is probably at least 75% marines at the moment.
Agree on the fact they cost way too much for a single cheap point-wise model, that's what's stopping me from using more of them. My lone Dragoon is just a kamikaze unit when I use it, and I don't use it any more given how nigh-useless it's been on the last games I played. They're probably good in small units but can't afford that. I'll wait for the codex before any more specific purchases, Just need myself more Fulgurites to have 10 and a Start Collecting and I'll be good to go for a while.
So my current tournament scene only allows 1 detachment. I was wondering is it worth it to give up Canticles to add some fast powerful imperium units like Celestine, a Stormraven/Stormwolf and perhaps other units I'm not thinking of. Thoughts?
Msolve wrote: So my current tournament scene only allows 1 detachment. I was wondering is it worth it to give up Canticles to add some fast powerful imperium units like Celestine, a Stormraven/Stormwolf and perhaps other units I'm not thinking of. Thoughts?
What. Ok, that's really dumb. Some armies are borderline unplayble in those conditions
Msolve wrote: So my current tournament scene only allows 1 detachment. I was wondering is it worth it to give up Canticles to add some fast powerful imperium units like Celestine, a Stormraven/Stormwolf and perhaps other units I'm not thinking of. Thoughts?
I honestly think all 2000 point tourneys should play RAW. GW is doing a much better job balancing for gameplay, and it seems really lame to tack on weird, ill-conceived house rules.
But yes, in a one detachment environment, taking Dunecrawlers is a good idea. They are great in all sorts of lists even without Canticles or rerolls; you won't be taking a TPD with you anyway. Icarus Crawlers are especially good at wiping airbourne units, battlesuits, bikes, and transports off the board.
If you aren't sure if you want to commit to Dragoons, proxy them with your local game group. Buy the base (same as Cawl), tape some straws to it, tell them what it is and that you're trying something. I recommend 3 to start as a replacement for the Vanguard, with up to another 3 if you want them to do more objective grabbing. (Because make no mistake, they act as your pawns and will likely die horribly to some plasma weapon, but it's one plasma volley that your Kastelans and Crawlers won't be taking.)
I would always caution someone against adding too many Kastelans. They perform great at 2 and 4, but they start to get unwieldy around 6 and 8. It's difficult to maneuver and protect them.
I own 7 and only one is partially built as a Ballistarii currently, so I am not sweating it.
As for Kastelans - I think that is really meta dependent. For me, going up to 8 will be fine, because I am playing against a lot of elite and gunline-style armies, not fast assault armies. Being able to toss 100+ shots at elite units to force failed saves is just great. Now, if I see an uptick in T1/T2 assault stuff, I will probably reconsider some things.
gally912 wrote: I'd like to try to subscribe to the Dragoon Bubble-wrap theory, but jimmeny-crikets, shelling out $50 for 68pts is just killer.
Then again, there isn't a lot in admech that is nice on the "points-per-dollar" scale. (Kastelens are "ok")
@WrentheFaceless If running Kastelens, I would probably prefer 2 units of 3... much easier to keep in the Cawl bubble, and much easier to get *other* things in the Cawl bubble.
@em_en_oh_pee
List looks pretty alright, though I probably drop the upgrades from the vanguard and the phosphor serpenta from a dragoon to upgrade one of the Icarus Onagers to a Nuetron laser. That is probably a bit meta dependant though.
Tried out Infiltrators with Powerswords this week, they did more work for me than goads. To be fair, though, my meta is probably at least 75% marines at the moment.
The Neutronager hasn't been much of an all-star for me, honestly. The S10 shots are nice, but the Icarus Onager was brilliant in my last game.
And I can't really drop the upgrades on my Vanguard without having to build/paint more Blandguard to fill the unit out. So that is a future planning thing for now - it only eats up 13pt total and that isn't hurting my list really (imo).
I think I will just get going playing with what models I have an adjust from there. Ad Mech is still one of my favorite armies thematically. I have always liked the Tech Priest Aesthetic
I am trying to assembly line a bunch of vanguard. Ugh matching the legs to the torsos so the trenchcoats dont bind weird is annoying. And glueing the "off hand" to the weapon and the shoulder is also annoying for a newbie like myself
So I may have just come into an admech army, had a friend selling this for $100 (notes are his):
2 boxes kataphron in box
7-10 skitarii sprue semi put together.... Crap ton of bits for them.
Dominus
Enough for a second dominus with bits
2 dune crawlers with parts of a third. Not sure enough to make three full idr.
5 rust stalkers/infiltrators and added needed bits
Dragoon strider new on sprue
Crap ton random mechanicum/mechanicus/skitarii bits
Sounds like I could make a decent force out of this? I know Kataphrons aren't the hotness, but they look cool, so how can they be used?
I think I will just get going playing with what models I have an adjust from there. Ad Mech is still one of my favorite armies thematically. I have always liked the Tech Priest Aesthetic
I am trying to assembly line a bunch of vanguard. Ugh matching the legs to the torsos so the trenchcoats dont bind weird is annoying. And glueing the "off hand" to the weapon and the shoulder is also annoying for a newbie like myself
I am in Aberdeen, near Fayetteville / Fort Bragg.
And seriously, completely hate the Skitarii models. Assembly and painting them is such a damn burden. The backpacks alone make me want to scream. And yea, the matching legs/robes thing is maddening.
Wayniac wrote: So I may have just come into an admech army, had a friend selling this for $100 (notes are his):
2 boxes kataphron in box
7-10 skitarii sprue semi put together.... Crap ton of bits for them.
Dominus
Enough for a second dominus with bits
2 dune crawlers with parts of a third. Not sure enough to make three full idr.
5 rust stalkers/infiltrators and added needed bits
Dragoon strider new on sprue
Crap ton random mechanicum/mechanicus/skitarii bits
Sounds like I could make a decent force out of this? I know Kataphrons aren't the hotness, but they look cool, so how can they be used?
I mean it sounds like more than what you get in a start collecting box almost two so its a good deal
I think I will just get going playing with what models I have an adjust from there. Ad Mech is still one of my favorite armies thematically. I have always liked the Tech Priest Aesthetic
I am trying to assembly line a bunch of vanguard. Ugh matching the legs to the torsos so the trenchcoats dont bind weird is annoying. And glueing the "off hand" to the weapon and the shoulder is also annoying for a newbie like myself
pro tip: though it's a pain to get all the flashing off, try priming on the sprue. allows you to paint as you go and assemble the skitarii as you paint them. if not, always paint the legs separate, learned that the hard way...
Opting for Dragoons over Skitarii. The Dragoons can spread out to make a 10" line, while a 5-man squad of Skitarii can spread into a 13" line, but the Dragoons offer up 12W at T6 with Incense Cloud and better mobility. This gives me two 10" no-go zones for any T1/T2 shenanigans... in theory. They have the 6++ and under Shroudpsalm should be more survivable than the dudes. The Taser Lance isn't impressive, but I have yet to have my Skitarii to anything but die, so if the Dragoons can do literally anything - even wound something once - it is an improvement. Plus, probably will look pretty good on the table. The list is pretty self-explanatory and I know a lot of folks will be like "less Robots", but keep in mind I am stuck in-faction for this and can't do Knights or Conscripts or anything and lets be real, Blandguard aren't really all that impressive as a speedbump because they die to a stiff breeze. Dragoons seem better... no doubt I will learn the hard way otherwise! Plus, unless I want to eat the 135pt TPD tax, I am kinda stuck with my single Spearhead detachment as well (hence the squadrons of Dragoons over single units).
I did go for another Neutron, but I am torn there. I have so much volume of shooting from the Kastelans, I think that extra Neutron shot will be a boon to help knock out heavy armor. Though with my luck, I will get stuck in against a bunch of flyers!
I think I will just get going playing with what models I have an adjust from there. Ad Mech is still one of my favorite armies thematically. I have always liked the Tech Priest Aesthetic
I am trying to assembly line a bunch of vanguard. Ugh matching the legs to the torsos so the trenchcoats dont bind weird is annoying. And glueing the "off hand" to the weapon and the shoulder is also annoying for a newbie like myself
pro tip: though it's a pain to get all the flashing off, try priming on the sprue. allows you to paint as you go and assemble the skitarii as you paint them. if not, always paint the legs separate, learned that the hard way...
Painting on the sprue?! Blasphemy.
My protip on the matter - get a fine tip brush or brush pen and where the legs and torso join, write corresponding numbers. That way you know which legs go to which bodies. You will want to paint them separate anyhow to be able to get the underside of the robes a separate color, so this is a trick that might help.
So given how Vanguards/rangers are, is it better to run them min squads or larger squads? Min vanguard die to a stiff breeze, but max vanguards die to morale.
I am looking at what I can cobble together with the lot I am getting, and I am thinking of doing 5 Rangers with 2 Arquebus, and then maybe 2 units of 5 rangers with 2 Plasma, should I combine that into one unit of 10 maybe? For my own sake I don't want to run them with zero upgrades (feels cheesy), and the plasma dudes look badass.
Wayniac wrote: So given how Vanguards/rangers are, is it better to run them min squads or larger squads? Min vanguard die to a stiff breeze, but max vanguards die to morale.
I am looking at what I can cobble together with the lot I am getting, and I am thinking of doing 5 Rangers with 2 Arquebus, and then maybe 2 units of 5 rangers with 2 Plasma, should I combine that into one unit of 10 maybe? For my own sake I don't want to run them with zero upgrades (feels cheesy), and the plasma dudes look badass.
Min units are the most advised. As you said, morale is a problem, and anyway one shooting phase of a single unit of Necrons could wipe out your 10 men unit all the same as a 5 men one. As for the plasma, it's still a pricey weapon so I'd personally not use that much. I use one and it rarely does anything worth mentioning. Four ? That's risky, and that costs too many points. However I'd advise to use Vanguards to carry them, because they need to be at the same range as the Plasma Caliver does, whereas you'll want to be more distant with your Rangers most of the time. It all depends on how you want to use them in the end. It shouldn't feel cheesy because they are over-costed anyway, so running them bare is just a way to deal with their high price to keep it low. If you want cheap special weapons the Arc Rifle is the way to go. If you want more bodies you can also use a middle number, no need to use 10, 7 or 8 are a decent number to have a mix of disposable bodies and reasonable potential morale losses.
Tiger9gamer wrote: if not, always paint the legs separate, learned that the hard way...
This. It makes the inside of the robe so much more manageable as well.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Opting for Dragoons over Skitarii. The Dragoons can spread out to make a 10" line, while a 5-man squad of Skitarii can spread into a 13" line, but the Dragoons offer up 12W at T6 with Incense Cloud and better mobility. This gives me two 10" no-go zones for any T1/T2 shenanigans... in theory. They have the 6++ and under Shroudpsalm should be more survivable than the dudes. The Taser Lance isn't impressive, but I have yet to have my Skitarii to anything but die, so if the Dragoons can do literally anything - even wound something once - it is an improvement. Plus, probably will look pretty good on the table. The list is pretty self-explanatory and I know a lot of folks will be like "less Robots", but keep in mind I am stuck in-faction for this and can't do Knights or Conscripts or anything and lets be real, Blandguard aren't really all that impressive as a speedbump because they die to a stiff breeze. Dragoons seem better... no doubt I will learn the hard way otherwise! Plus, unless I want to eat the 135pt TPD tax, I am kinda stuck with my single Spearhead detachment as well (hence the squadrons of Dragoons over single units).
I did go for another Neutron, but I am torn there. I have so much volume of shooting from the Kastelans, I think that extra Neutron shot will be a boon to help knock out heavy armor. Though with my luck, I will get stuck in against a bunch of flyers!
I run them in pairs as well. It makes them a bit harder to remove, and you can actually "trap" units with them (especially vehicles that get too close to a wall) like so:
---------
.\..o../.
..\..../..
The 'o' represents the vehicle and the Dragoons are the lines. Basically, just keep the "tails" of the Dragoons no more than 2 inches apart and have the "heads" overlap the edge of the vehicle. The vehicle cannot fall back and is thus stuck in CC with your Dragoons forever.
Dragoons also occasionally explode, which can do a surprising amount of damage given how big their bases are.
I do 1:1 Neutron to Icarus, with Neutrons taking priority. Remember that Kastelans do a lot of what Icarus already do against non-flyers.
Wayniac wrote: So given how Vanguards/rangers are, is it better to run them min squads or larger squads? Min vanguard die to a stiff breeze, but max vanguards die to morale.
I am looking at what I can cobble together with the lot I am getting, and I am thinking of doing 5 Rangers with 2 Arquebus, and then maybe 2 units of 5 rangers with 2 Plasma, should I combine that into one unit of 10 maybe? For my own sake I don't want to run them with zero upgrades (feels cheesy), and the plasma dudes look badass.
Always minimum squads. Run Vanguard instead of Rangers for Plasma; the range and Assault characteristic do synergize. In higher point games though, naked Vanguard are your best bet.
On a side note, BAO finished over the weekend. It was a Guard spamfest. I mean, the Bay Area is a bit more cutthroat than other areas (in a super nerdy way), but Conscripts + Elysians/Scions seems to be the new army to beat now that flyers are (mostly) gone.
Snipers can't kill the Commissars fast enough to make a significant difference, so it seems the best way is to hunker down and protect the artillery from deep strikes.
Has anyone heard any rumblings/rumors on our codex? The last time I looked, nothing was available. The HQ tax blows and I'd like to be able to use my ,forge world> for something... Lol.
The only thing I heard before 8th released is that ad mech will get transports but no idea how good the source is...
bortass wrote: Has anyone heard any rumblings/rumors on our codex? The last time I looked, nothing was available. The HQ tax blows and I'd like to be able to use my ,forge world> for something... Lol.
The only thing I heard before 8th released is that ad mech will get transports but no idea how good the source is...
Fires of Cyraxus is supposed to drag the 30k range (mostly) into 40k for us. I think it has been on hold this long due to the inevitable 8th transition. Allegedly, that will be out here soonish. Like maybe Q3 or Q4? Maybe the next FW event will shed some light on it, but the Triaros would be a fantastic transport to get access to.
And given the speed of the Codex releases, if we are up for it, we will not have to wait long it seems. I mean 8th Ed isn't that old and we have three Codices due out in less than a month. So hopefully we get ours this year and soon. I think the 4th releases is supposed to be Death Guard, but no rumblings on what is after.
I know this is a bit off-normal as we're all trying to flesh out the most competitive and/or dominant lists. However, I though I might propose a list I've been really enjoying and having good success with at a lower point value (1000). This has been for an escalation league that started at 500 points and has gone up 250 every two weeks, currently we're at 1000. I thought I'd post it in case someone out there was interested in a fun, dynamic, strong list that didn't leave opponents feeling abused by unit spam or an excess of super-units. The only true duplication in the list are 5-man, bog-standard vanguard squads which no one is going to complain about.
I think there's a few points left over to play with war gear. In any case this army has been surprisingly versatile, tough to take down and really, really fun to play. It's also been very successful. If you deploy it right, you can deny your entire deployment zone in the end-to-end deployment map to infiltrators/deep strikers while still giving your dune crawlers access to the TPD's aura.
It won't win you any tournaments... but if you're looking for a solid list for friendly play that won't leave your opponents complaining about how cheesy your army build is or calling you "that guy"... you might give it a go.
Jaynen wrote: It looks like I might have screwed something up or I was off on the models but with 2 starting boxes I ended up with
1 5 man ranger team that has 2 arquebus's and an alpha with omnispex
and 14 Blandguard with 2 Alphas
I thought I should have had 15 total for 3 groups of 5 but not sure what happened
So I guess I will run 2 groups of 7? Blandguard so 6 Vanguard 1 Alpha
1 TPD until I get cawl
1 Neutron Onager
1 Icarus Onager
5 man squads are plenty, if you want to run them at all.
Also, nerding out that Dakkastelan is now a thing on Dakka. Wondering if Blandguard will get there too!
Just since I don't have more models to make up points with I might as well play the guys I have for now. As soon as it makes sense to drop them I would
I still run 2 10 vanguard squads at full for most my lists. I give one squad 3 palsma, the other 3 arc rifles, both omispex depnding on my opponent, I'll ran a 10 man ranger squad with only omispex, and probably 1 or 2 five man squads of of rangers with one or two snipers.
This would normally be a horrible idea, but I play a little of everything and I play for Rule of Cool and fluff over hyper competitiveness. But taking bigger squads isnt autolose, they can still work.
My lists always contain Breachers, Desyroyers, and Robots. These things often draw the most fire, due to the sheer amount of firepower they throw out. My Vanguard and Rangers often don't get shot till about turn three due to target priorities.
Its almost the same tactic I use with my Tyranids, they don't bother shooting my devilgaunts because the distratafex is only 8" away.
Two of my last games, my 10 man ranger squad was never even shot at. All fire was directed at my heavy guns. And the rangers did well, their long range and random AP-1 and omispex to ingore cover would pop rubrics and Chaos space marines every so often
Automatically Appended Next Post: Though if you really wanted to be more competitive, you can still run those 10 man squads but only give them arc rifles. Their volume of shots and the cheapness of the arc rifles makes for a glass cannon of a unit.
Tsol wrote: Though if you really wanted to be more competitive, you can still run those 10 man squads but only give them arc rifles. Their volume of shots and the cheapness of the arc rifles makes for a glass cannon of a unit.
In my experience, Arc Rifles are worse than Radium Carbines and Plasma Calivers against the sorts of enemies that your Vanguard will face. Stuff like bikes, daemons, and conscripts. It's a shame too. I bought so many Arc Rifles during 7th.
So Robots are backordered and I won't get mine in time for my tournament. So, in an effort to mitigate my painting needs, I have a more diversified list that I am not totally tickled with, but it is all stuff I have and almost all of it is painted. I need to focus on my display board for the event, so I am really strapped for time.
Spearhead Detachment +1
HQ: Cawl [250]
Troops: (5) Rangers 2x Arquebus [100]
Fast Attack: Sydonian Dragoon Taser Lance [68]
Sydonian Dragoon Taser Lance [68]
Heavy: (3) Kastelan Robot Triple Heavy Phosphor Blasters [330]
(2) Kastelan Robot Triple Heavy Phosphor Blasters [220]
So that is where I am at. It has a trio of Dragoons for screening which I am hoping will suffice. Fulgurites for counter-assault, Snipers to pick off characters. Infiltrators for "mobility". Only 5 Robots, but that should suffice for firepower. Icarus to drop flyers and twin Neutrons to help knock out threatening armor.
Sucks I have to pay the TDP tax to get a second detachment, but hey it is another guy to repair models and his bubble might help if I move off a small chunk of the army away from Cawl's main area.
Yeah, Robots are sold out pretty much everywhere. They're going for above retail for poorly painted on eBay, and $150-$200 on Amazon. I haven't seen my local stores as of late, so not sure about physical copies.
Everyone is putting way too many in their lists anyway. I think 2x2 is the right number, 1x2 if you have a Crusader. Any more, and you will begin to have problems against assault armies; a third of your army pretty much is helpless in CC, especially if they manage to kill your Datasmith.
Robots will be available again when a container comes in to the US. That is per GW Customer service.
Also, if you datasmith dies, what were you doing? Robots can go double fight for CC, so they are not useless, just not great. But their overwatch is brutal with Cawl nearby.
I think 6 is probably the right amount for 2k. That puts enough firepower down to take a lot of steam out of assault armies.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jaynen wrote: Ill be watching to hear how you do as it sounds reasonable for what we have to work with
I will post about how it does. I am hopeful, but only 5 Robots isn't my ideal. C'est la vie.
Really? Never? Nobody plays Tyranids, Orks, Daemons, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, or hell, Grey Knights, where you're at? Because in my experience, when fighting assault armies, it's not a matter of IF they will get into CC, but when and where.
Really? Never? Nobody plays Tyranids, Orks, Daemons, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, or hell, Grey Knights, where you're at? Because in my experience, when fighting assault armies, it's not a matter of IF they will get into CC, but when and where.
I find it surprising too. Most of the time against experienced players I get charged turn 2. Now I'm learning how to position them better to avoid that but I tend to dislike having my 15 Skitarii out in the open for screening, they just get shot at and die immediately. And I built my two robots with twin HPB and Incendine Combustors back in the day, now I wish I hadn't but I just love playing WYSIWYG in 8th Edition.
Going to play a game at 2000 pts today against Chaos, going to borrow Cawl from a friend to be able to climb up to 2000 pts, and try him by the way. It also will allow me to make a full AdMech Battalion and so will be able at last to play with the Canticles Here's the list, made of all the models I've got save a Taurox and a Commissar that I don't play in this list:
Really? Never? Nobody plays Tyranids, Orks, Daemons, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, or hell, Grey Knights, where you're at? Because in my experience, when fighting assault armies, it's not a matter of IF they will get into CC, but when and where.
Haven't had the chance to face our two Ork players yet. Or our Space Wolves player - though he goes so elite, I can't imagine my volume of fire won't drown him in wounds.
Marines haven't proven much of an issue, mostly because again - volume. Forcing failed saves is something we do well. And when they have to take a turn or two just to close the gap, we get a lot of shooting off. I am not saying it won't happen, I am saying I have been able to avoid it thus far.
I find it surprising too. Most of the time against experienced players I get charged turn 2. Now I'm learning how to position them better to avoid that but I tend to dislike having my 15 Skitarii out in the open for screening, they just get shot at and die immediately. And I built my two robots with twin HPB and Incendine Combustors back in the day, now I wish I hadn't but I just love playing WYSIWYG in 8th Edition.
Deployment plays a big role. Getting charged on T2 is a matter of positioning. I keep my gunline as far back as possible, because we have plenty of range and need as many turns for shooting as possible. My screening units are up far enough to be a speedbump for Deep Strikers.
My main concerns are 'Nids, currently. Coldstar as well. We have some stuff that is going to be our bane until we get a Codex and/or FoC (and maybe even still after that).
But attempting to negate our disadvantages via deployment is a big chunk of our strategy. I am hoping to test out the Dragoons as a more effective screen too - the Skitarii have proven quite lackluster.
Gotta deploy creatively, you can take over most of your deployment zone on any deployment as long as you spread creatively and screen to prevent not only T1/T2 charges but also people deep striking behind you
WrentheFaceless wrote: Gotta deploy creatively, you can take over most of your deployment zone on any deployment as long as you spread creatively and screen to prevent not only T1/T2 charges but also people deep striking behind you
Hahaha... I don't usually need to move after deploying. The only time I might have to is Hammer and Anvil against Guard, which is one of the only armies that has longer range artillery. (Well, Tau does too, but I have never seen anyone run Hammerheads. It's all Crisis and Coldstar Commanders.)
Wow jeez. My introductory game of 40k 8e first in 2-3+ years was turn 1: 30 ork boyz teleport to 9.1" away. Charge successful. Starting your first movement phase already in close combat with 30 orks is a bit discombobulating.
2 Sydonian Dragoons
- 2 x Taser lance
- - - > 136 P
*************** 4 Heavy ***************
2 Kastelan Robots
- 2 x 2 Heavy Phosphor blasters
- 2 x Heavy Phosphor blaster
- - - > 220 P
Onager Dunecrawlers
- Neutron laser + Cognis heavy stubber
- - - > 143 P
Onager Dunecrawlers
- Neutron laser + Cognis heavy stubber
- - - > 143 P
Onager Dunecrawlers
- Icarus array
- - - > 130 P
Imperium: Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 585 P
*************** 1 Lord of War ***************
Knight Crusader
- Stormspear rocket pod
- Rapid-fire battle cannon + Heavy stubber
- Heavy stubber
- - - > 585 P
This list works great, all in all. But there will be a lot of Daemons and Magnus lists (CSM codex will not be part of it) and I think I will need some psychic-defense in order to get something done. Any ideas on how to get something into the list without changing to much?
Really? Never? Nobody plays Tyranids, Orks, Daemons, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, or hell, Grey Knights, where you're at? Because in my experience, when fighting assault armies, it's not a matter of IF they will get into CC, but when and where.
I find it surprising too. Most of the time against experienced players I get charged turn 2. Now I'm learning how to position them better to avoid that but I tend to dislike having my 15 Skitarii out in the open for screening, they just get shot at and die immediately. And I built my two robots with twin HPB and Incendine Combustors back in the day, now I wish I hadn't but I just love playing WYSIWYG in 8th Edition.
Going to play a game at 2000 pts today against Chaos, going to borrow Cawl from a friend to be able to climb up to 2000 pts, and try him by the way. It also will allow me to make a full AdMech Battalion and so will be able at last to play with the Canticles Here's the list, made of all the models I've got save a Taurox and a Commissar that I don't play in this list:
So, results from the games (had two games). I admit Cawl is a beast, it's so much better to reroll everything than only 1s and his base is so huge it can effect a lot of guys at once. Still, I'll wait until after the codex to see if I buy him because I'd like to see the Forge-Worlds traits and tactics beforehand.
First game was against Chaos/Death Guard. We played the campaign mission of the week, Konor, which is a ridiculously unbalanced scenario. To recap, Chaos is always defender, points are marked by slaying the warlord, slaying an enemy unit, with bonus point if the unit was finished by a 2+ or 3+ unit (there is the ridiculous), and the defender have one point as long as there is a model of his in his deployment zone. I was the attacker and I thought having read in the objectives that I had to go into his deployment zone where in fact nothing was preventing me from keeping my position, so I stupidly broke my gunline and got too much separated until turn 3 where I finally got the objectives right, so in the end I had Cawl die in CC against some Poxwalkers and a Bloat Drone and my army scattered in inefficient groups with no rerolls. I lost something like 26-6 for my opponent since he marked double points each time. So bad game from my part.
Second game was way better for me, I played against Necrons in the same scenario and we rolled off and he chose defender. However I got the lesson from last game and holed up in a ruin with Cawl buffing the Destroyers, Robots, Snipers and Onager. My opponent played 3x11 Warriors, one Cryptek, one Overlord, 2 Triarch Stalkers, 2 Monoliths and the Deceiver. Was positively surprised of the Fulgurites as they could finish off the Deceiver in CC with 4W left and so gained their 3++ that allowed them to tank a full warriors squad fire + a whole monolith fire before going down. Anyway in the end I had destroyed 22 Warriors, 2 Monoliths, the Deceiver and his Cryptek. I lost my Dragoon, Command Squad, Fulgurites and Infiltrators only. Due to the scenario I lost 7-5 anyway.
Next steps for my 2000 pts list are to add a second Onager with either Laser or Icarus and add 5 Fulgurites.
Jaynen wrote: I've heard that teleporta ork dockta thing is one of their really viable moves right now
Yeah, it's a Weirdboy, which is the Ork Psyker.
Da Jump + Ere We Go = Meganobz eating your lunch on turn 1.
One unit per turn max can use Da Jump. With the right deployment, we will force them to arrive too far out consolidate into our gunline. Not sure how much effective long-range shooting they have to negate our screen, but I haven't seen many Ork lists rocking much of it. I think they would have trouble shifting out Dragoons anyhow, as they need 6's to-hit (another perk over the Blandguard). Add in Shroudpsalm and we have a screen that might really hinder Da Jump.
In theory. I got to put this to the test soon. I am hopefully finishing my Dragoons tonight! If I haven't complained yet, they are atrocious to assemble and paint! Why can't AdMech units be fun to build and paint!? They are so fiddly and I am on a time crunch and its driving me nuts.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Iago40k wrote: Okay guys, tournament time. 1850, malestrom and eternal war missions, all that good stuff. This is the list I have in mind
2 Sydonian Dragoons
- 2 x Taser lance
- - - > 136 P
*************** 4 Heavy ***************
2 Kastelan Robots
- 2 x 2 Heavy Phosphor blasters
- 2 x Heavy Phosphor blaster
- - - > 220 P
Onager Dunecrawlers
- Neutron laser + Cognis heavy stubber
- - - > 143 P
Onager Dunecrawlers
- Neutron laser + Cognis heavy stubber
- - - > 143 P
Onager Dunecrawlers
- Icarus array
- - - > 130 P
Imperium: Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 585 P
*************** 1 Lord of War ***************
Knight Crusader
- Stormspear rocket pod
- Rapid-fire battle cannon + Heavy stubber
- Heavy stubber
- - - > 585 P
This list works great, all in all. But there will be a lot of Daemons and Magnus lists (CSM codex will not be part of it) and I think I will need some psychic-defense in order to get something done. Any ideas on how to get something into the list without changing to much?
Split the Dragoons into two FA slots for flexibility?
And consider Greyfax - apparently she is a solid include for Psychic defense.
Jaynen wrote: When I finally finish my army (which will be more tabletop quality than anything) I assure you I likely won't post any closeups lol
I realized what I did I accidentally build an extra ranger which is why I ended up with 14 Vanguard.
Is there a way to remove the head/weapon and glue on the other Vanguard piece?
If you assembled them with superglue I heard putting them in the freezer long enough should make it able to break the glue apart. If it's plastic glue it's harder because it will solder the two plastic pieces, but for heads and arms you should be able to cut them off with your cutters and do the finishing work with a x-facto knife. Or you could just try to tear it off, it's weaker at the glue point generally, just be careful not to bend the model by doing so. Then to glue another head you should be able to do it by cutting the half-sphere shape under the new head, I had to do this once and it worked finely.
BTW I noticed a discrepancy between the rulebook and what I saw played in a Mini War Gaming Adeptus replay
He was talking about rerolls and how you can only reroll misses, which you can't reroll things that would be misses due to modifiers in play only things that would naturally be a miss
But Cawl specifically says Reroll ANY hit rolls which would imply to me you could even reroll "hits" if you wanted to?
BTW I noticed a discrepancy between the rulebook and what I saw played in a Mini War Gaming Adeptus replay
He was talking about rerolls and how you can only reroll misses, which you can't reroll things that would be misses due to modifiers in play only things that would naturally be a miss
But Cawl specifically says Reroll ANY hit rolls which would imply to me you could even reroll "hits" if you wanted to?
"Page 178 – Re-rolls
Change this paragraph to read: 'Some rules allow you to re-roll a dice roll, which means you get to roll some or all of the dice again. If a rule allows you to re-roll a result that was made by adding several dice together (e.g. 2D6, 3D6, etc.) then, unless otherwise stated, you must roll all of those dice again. You can never re-roll a dice more than once, and re-rolls happen before modifiers (if any) are applied.’"
I think that is what they are referring to. Re-rolls happen before modifiers apparently, which is... really confusing and clunky.
"Page 178 – Re-rolls
Change this paragraph to read: 'Some rules allow you to re-roll a dice roll, which means you get to roll some or all of the dice again. If a rule allows you to re-roll a result that was made by adding several dice together (e.g. 2D6, 3D6, etc.) then, unless otherwise stated, you must roll all of those dice again. You can never re-roll a dice more than once, and re-rolls happen before modifiers (if any) are applied.’"
I think that is what they are referring to. Re-rolls happen before modifiers apparently, which is... really confusing and clunky.
I strongly believe it's inspired - so many games in the past had weird re-roll logic which meant that the -1 to hit being re-rolled was even better for you, since you had a greater chance to trigger a special effect on the 6. Take Electro Priests for instance - if the -1 was applied before Crawl's re-roll, it would be even more beneficial for you since you get even more chances to get 6s.. which is completely counter intuitive. This way the -1 to hit is always a penalty and not sometimes a benefit.
"Page 178 – Re-rolls
Change this paragraph to read: 'Some rules allow you to re-roll a dice roll, which means you get to roll some or all of the dice again. If a rule allows you to re-roll a result that was made by adding several dice together (e.g. 2D6, 3D6, etc.) then, unless otherwise stated, you must roll all of those dice again. You can never re-roll a dice more than once, and re-rolls happen before modifiers (if any) are applied.’"
I think that is what they are referring to. Re-rolls happen before modifiers apparently, which is... really confusing and clunky.
I strongly believe it's inspired - so many games in the past had weird re-roll logic which meant that the -1 to hit being re-rolled was even better for you, since you had a greater chance to trigger a special effect on the 6. Take Electro Priests for instance - if the -1 was applied before Crawl's re-roll, it would be even more beneficial for you since you get even more chances to get 6s.. which is completely counter intuitive. This way the -1 to hit is always a penalty and not sometimes a benefit.
Unless you want to miss, I guess.
I agree. I think I find it clunky because I am so used to 40k from editions prior. This is new and different and scary!
2 Sydonian Dragoons
- 2 x Taser lance
- - - > 136 P
*************** 4 Heavy ***************
2 Kastelan Robots
- 2 x 2 Heavy Phosphor blasters
- 2 x Heavy Phosphor blaster
- - - > 220 P
Onager Dunecrawlers
- Neutron laser + Cognis heavy stubber
- - - > 143 P
Onager Dunecrawlers
- Neutron laser + Cognis heavy stubber
- - - > 143 P
Onager Dunecrawlers
- Icarus array
- - - > 130 P
Imperium: Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 585 P
*************** 1 Lord of War ***************
Knight Crusader
- Stormspear rocket pod
- Rapid-fire battle cannon + Heavy stubber
- Heavy stubber
- - - > 585 P
This list works great, all in all. But there will be a lot of Daemons and Magnus lists (CSM codex will not be part of it) and I think I will need some psychic-defense in order to get something done. Any ideas on how to get something into the list without changing to much?
Split the Dragoons into two FA slots for flexibility?
And consider Greyfax - apparently she is a solid include for Psychic defense.
Yeah thought about 2 FA slots. Greyfax sounds decent but the question is: What detachment should be used?
2 Sydonian Dragoons
- 2 x Taser lance
- - - > 136 P
*************** 4 Heavy ***************
2 Kastelan Robots
- 2 x 2 Heavy Phosphor blasters
- 2 x Heavy Phosphor blaster
- - - > 220 P
Onager Dunecrawlers
- Neutron laser + Cognis heavy stubber
- - - > 143 P
Onager Dunecrawlers
- Neutron laser + Cognis heavy stubber
- - - > 143 P
Onager Dunecrawlers
- Icarus array
- - - > 130 P
Imperium: Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 585 P
*************** 1 Lord of War ***************
Knight Crusader
- Stormspear rocket pod
- Rapid-fire battle cannon + Heavy stubber
- Heavy stubber
- - - > 585 P
This list works great, all in all. But there will be a lot of Daemons and Magnus lists (CSM codex will not be part of it) and I think I will need some psychic-defense in order to get something done. Any ideas on how to get something into the list without changing to much?
Split the Dragoons into two FA slots for flexibility?
And consider Greyfax - apparently she is a solid include for Psychic defense.
Yeah thought about 2 FA slots. Greyfax sounds decent but the question is: What detachment should be used?
Greyfax is the best points for deny rolls model in the game. She is 85 points for 2 denies that have +1 to the roll at 24". She also has access to a great psychic power: for warp charge 6 she can turn off a unit's overwatch from 18" away. I think she should be taken with either 1 conscript blob in a patrol, or with 3 eversors in a vanguard.
2 Sydonian Dragoons
- 2 x Taser lance
- - - > 136 P
*************** 4 Heavy ***************
2 Kastelan Robots
- 2 x 2 Heavy Phosphor blasters
- 2 x Heavy Phosphor blaster
- - - > 220 P
Onager Dunecrawlers
- Neutron laser + Cognis heavy stubber
- - - > 143 P
Onager Dunecrawlers
- Neutron laser + Cognis heavy stubber
- - - > 143 P
Onager Dunecrawlers
- Icarus array
- - - > 130 P
Imperium: Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 585 P
*************** 1 Lord of War ***************
Knight Crusader
- Stormspear rocket pod
- Rapid-fire battle cannon + Heavy stubber
- Heavy stubber
- - - > 585 P
This list works great, all in all. But there will be a lot of Daemons and Magnus lists (CSM codex will not be part of it) and I think I will need some psychic-defense in order to get something done. Any ideas on how to get something into the list without changing to much?
Split the Dragoons into two FA slots for flexibility?
And consider Greyfax - apparently she is a solid include for Psychic defense.
Yeah thought about 2 FA slots. Greyfax sounds decent but the question is: What detachment should be used?
Greyfax is the best points for deny rolls model in the game. She is 85 points for 2 denies that have +1 to the roll at 24". She also has access to a great psychic power: for warp charge 6 she can turn off a unit's overwatch from 18" away. I think she should be taken with either 1 conscript blob in a patrol, or with 3 eversors in a vanguard.
Second the Vanguard. But don't spam Eversors. Do at least one Culexus. Variety and stuff.
...or do three Eversors. It is his time to shine after so many editions of sucking!
Yes, Dragoons can stop Da Jump early on. The scary thing is that unlike Deep Strike, which forces the opponent to keep his units in reserve and thus, not on the board shooting, it can happen pretty much any time.
Greyfax is an interesting idea. I really wish I owned one...
Suzuteo wrote: Yes, Dragoons can stop Da Jump early on. The scary thing is that unlike Deep Strike, which forces the opponent to keep his units in reserve and thus, not on the board shooting, it can happen pretty much any time.
Greyfax is an interesting idea. I really wish I owned one...
Just convert a similar model with equipment that's basically the same.
Greyfax is the best points for deny rolls model in the game. She is 85 points for 2 denies that have +1 to the roll at 24". She also has access to a great psychic power: for warp charge 6 she can turn off a unit's overwatch from 18" away. I think she should be taken with either 1 conscript blob in a patrol, or with 3 eversors in a vanguard.
Suzuteo wrote: Yes, Dragoons can stop Da Jump early on. The scary thing is that unlike Deep Strike, which forces the opponent to keep his units in reserve and thus, not on the board shooting, it can happen pretty much any time.
Greyfax is an interesting idea. I really wish I owned one...
Yea. If they can shoot down our Dragoons, they can get Da Jump on us. But with the Dragoons Cloud, Orks are trying to hit us on 6's and we are T6 3+. What would worry me are Lootas. S7 AP -1 and 2 damage a pop with volume enough to cause us some pain. Though with Shroudpsalm we are still at 3+ and they will need 6's and not 5+, but volume counts and that 2 damage will add up fast.
Most of the Mek Gunz are a concern as well, plus the Kannon. But honestly, not much else worries me. A lot of their stuff is awful at shooting and we will get at least one good turn of shooting, which should be enough to really hurt them.
Now Tyranids... that is a whole different story. Trygons and Tyrannocytes and stuff. Probably won't amount to T1 charges, but definitely going to be too much in your face that is tough to kill outright in one turn.
Greyfax isn't that expensive, right? $20 on eBay is not bad for what would be a $30 clampack.
So Chapter Approved is going to give Troops in same-faction detachments Objective Secured and take away objective scoring for flyers entirely. I guess this means Skitarii and Kataphrons will have some use again as campers? I really hope they limit Conscript /Daemon spam, perhaps by tying them to Command Squads or something.
They also are finally "fixing" the first turn problem.
Wulfey wrote: Greyfax is the best points for deny rolls model in the game. She is 85 points for 2 denies that have +1 to the roll at 24". She also has access to a great psychic power: for warp charge 6 she can turn off a unit's overwatch from 18" away. I think she should be taken with either 1 conscript blob in a patrol, or with 3 eversors in a vanguard.
Pfft, an Guard HQ Psyker and 3 Astropaths is also 85 pts, gives 4 denies not 2 and can be spread to cover the entire board. Gets 4 powers, and by themselves complete a Vanguard Detachment.
Wulfey wrote: Greyfax is the best points for deny rolls model in the game. She is 85 points for 2 denies that have +1 to the roll at 24". She also has access to a great psychic power: for warp charge 6 she can turn off a unit's overwatch from 18" away. I think she should be taken with either 1 conscript blob in a patrol, or with 3 eversors in a vanguard.
Pfft, an Guard HQ Psyker and 3 Astropaths is also 85 pts, gives 4 denies not 2 and can be spread to cover the entire board. Gets 4 powers, and by themselves complete a Vanguard Detachment.
Wulfey wrote: Greyfax is the best points for deny rolls model in the game. She is 85 points for 2 denies that have +1 to the roll at 24". She also has access to a great psychic power: for warp charge 6 she can turn off a unit's overwatch from 18" away. I think she should be taken with either 1 conscript blob in a patrol, or with 3 eversors in a vanguard.
Pfft, an Guard HQ Psyker and 3 Astropaths is also 85 pts, gives 4 denies not 2 and can be spread to cover the entire board. Gets 4 powers, and by themselves complete a Vanguard Detachment.
You can only roll for Deny the Witch once, so the quantity of denies is not as important as the quality of denies.
The reason I want to run Greyfax + 3 assassins is that my Eversors are converted Rustalkers. They have the claw, the power sword, a skull mask paint job, and a converted infiltrator pistol grafted to their sword. I think it is admechy. Eversors are also much stronger in a deep strike assault than an infilitrator squad, for the points.
Wulfey wrote: The reason I want to run Greyfax + 3 assassins is that my Eversors are converted Rustalkers. They have the claw, the power sword, a skull mask paint job, and a converted infiltrator pistol grafted to their sword. I think it is admechy. Eversors are also much stronger in a deep strike assault than an infilitrator squad, for the points.
Why not some Callidus? Still 6 attacks, with one poisonous. Has a closer deep strike (might be only 4" away from a unit if you're lucky). Command point blocking too, which might be useful. I'd be tempted to run your idea, but with a mix of assassins. Gives the ability to send the eversor after a vehicle with a melta bomb, while the callidus goes for something with invulnerable saves (which they no longer get).
I'm now tempted to create an Inquisitional Assassination Squad...
Wulfey wrote: The reason I want to run Greyfax + 3 assassins is that my Eversors are converted Rustalkers. They have the claw, the power sword, a skull mask paint job, and a converted infiltrator pistol grafted to their sword. I think it is admechy. Eversors are also much stronger in a deep strike assault than an infilitrator squad, for the points.
Why not some Callidus? Still 6 attacks, with one poisonous. Has a closer deep strike (might be only 4" away from a unit if you're lucky). Command point blocking too, which might be useful. I'd be tempted to run your idea, but with a mix of assassins. Gives the ability to send the eversor after a vehicle with a melta bomb, while the callidus goes for something with invulnerable saves (which they no longer get).
I'm now tempted to create an Inquisitional Assassination Squad...
I don't have a good stand in model. And I don't feel like buying one for 25$. I feel like assassins should be good complements for an admech list and would consider running a calidus ... maybe my spare Gemini could be one with some work .... I posted the list I am thinking about in the army list section. I will repost it here.
IMPERIUM battalion:
Greyfax 85
Celestine 200 (1 gemini)
Conscriptsx20 60
Conscriptsx20 60
Skit Vanguardx5 50 (yes no canticles for these guys, need 50 points of troops and lack models)
Eversor 70
Eversor 70
Eversor 70
Apparently, people with the first turn were winning like 90% of battles in tournaments.
So they are changing some rules. Should help us out a lot especially with the lack of transports.
Kind of makes you wonder what was going on during that whole year of play testing.
Yea seriously. They upped all the damage and reduced durability. Then they added stacking auras. And now there are going to be heaps of strategems that deal mortal wounds. In an 'I go, You go' format, that means the person who goes first necessarily takes less damage in return on their second turn. I fully expect them to implement a mandatory night fight on turn 1 where all ranged weapons have -1 to hit during the first turn.
If i had it my way, it would only be the player who goes first during the first battle round who gets the -1 penalty. If you go second, you don't have the penalty.
As I stated above, they "fixed" the problem. That is, the problem of the first mover getting a massive advantage is still there, it's just that who gets to go first is less deterministic.
To truly fix the problem, they need to add a penalty to who goes first or give and advantage to who goes second.
I personally favor going back to the old-fashioned way and exacerbating the existing information advantage. Instead of deploying then rolling, you should roll dice first, and whoever has the high roll chooses to go first or second. Whoever goes first deploys their entire army first, then the other player deploys. Finally, if the high-roller chose to go first, the low-roller can roll to seize the initiative. Bwahaha.
Wulfey wrote: The reason I want to run Greyfax + 3 assassins is that my Eversors are converted Rustalkers. They have the claw, the power sword, a skull mask paint job, and a converted infiltrator pistol grafted to their sword. I think it is admechy. Eversors are also much stronger in a deep strike assault than an infilitrator squad, for the points.
But what are you doing to get to deep strike the unit?
Wulfey wrote: The reason I want to run Greyfax + 3 assassins is that my Eversors are converted Rustalkers. They have the claw, the power sword, a skull mask paint job, and a converted infiltrator pistol grafted to their sword. I think it is admechy. Eversors are also much stronger in a deep strike assault than an infilitrator squad, for the points.
But what are you doing to get to deep strike the unit?
Suzuteo wrote: As I stated above, they "fixed" the problem. That is, the problem of the first mover getting a massive advantage is still there, it's just that who gets to go first is less deterministic.
To truly fix the problem, they need to add a penalty to who goes first or give and advantage to who goes second.
I personally favor going back to the old-fashioned way and exacerbating the existing information advantage. Instead of deploying then rolling, you should roll dice first, and whoever has the high roll chooses to go first or second. Whoever goes first deploys their entire army first, then the other player deploys. Finally, if the high-roller chose to go first, the low-roller can roll to seize the initiative. Bwahaha.
It sounds like you are describing the initiative roll / double turn mechanism in AoS. I wonder if they originally planned to have it in 40k but then removed it because of how many people didn't like that mechanic.
With the rule change no longer guaranteeing a first turn reliably, it sounds like tourney lists will probably need to change. Previously a low drop army had an 83% chance of going first - even in a GT odds are you would get to go first every time. With the rule change their chance of going first drops to 58%, which should be enough to push alpha strike lists of top tables at tournies. The meta will probably shift from strong alpha strike lists to lists capable of weathering an alpha strike. I'm thinking units with good invuln saves or penalties to hit. AdMech i think will be in a good position with shroudsalm + aegis mode kastelans.
I'm eager to see the Forge-Worlds traits and tactics. I'd like to build an army that keeps moving forward, don't really like playing full backfield as it is right now. Moving up the Robots in Aegis mode, supported by Cawl or a Dominus, with more emphasis on the CC units. If they include the Secutarii and/or other FW stuff for us my dream may come true !
Aaranis wrote: I'm eager to see the Forge-Worlds traits and tactics. I'd like to build an army that keeps moving forward, don't really like playing full backfield as it is right now. Moving up the Robots in Aegis mode, supported by Cawl or a Dominus, with more emphasis on the CC units. If they include the Secutarii and/or other FW stuff for us my dream may come true !
Me too! Right now admech parks all of their units in one spot, doesnt move, and just roles a bunch of dice - not exactly a ton of fun. I wanted to do a list with cawl + tech priest + Rock em sock em Kastellans all healing each other and shredding guys in CC but i wasnt sure how effective it would be. Maybe with the new initiative rules it will be viable.
Yeaaa... the faction really lost out on the mobility aspect. I was hoping for a slow grinding advance type thing, but really I just park it and shoot. It gets a bit repetitive and requires very little tactics, which makes for a boring army.
Our Codex better be out soon. We need a lot of adjustments to "fix" things. I expect points up for Robots, down for Kataphrons, and some solid strategems. I am hopeful, but without a timeline it makes wanting to keep investing in the army tough. Once I end my participation in the League I am in, I will probably shelf them until the book drops.
npcompl33t wrote: Me too! Right now admech parks all of their units in one spot, doesnt move, and just roles a bunch of dice - not exactly a ton of fun. I wanted to do a list with cawl + tech priest + Rock em sock em Kastellans all healing each other and shredding guys in CC but i wasnt sure how effective it would be. Maybe with the new initiative rules it will be viable.
Yeah I'd love the Robots to lose the -1 to hit when moving somehow. I equipped the two I have win twin HPB and Incendine Combustors so I'd be happy if they could combust more Also really want to build my next Robots with Fists and Combustors too.
Bummed got my scion start collecting and I think each sprue only has one plasma gun? I wanted to use 2 for the Scion Troops unit and 4 for the command squad
Jaynen wrote: Bummed got my scion start collecting and I think each sprue only has one plasma gun? I wanted to use 2 for the Scion Troops unit and 4 for the command squad
Yup. Classic GW. That is pretty much par for the course. Our Skitarii don't get more than one of each on their sprues and we can take up to three in per 10-man box.
I tend to use Hoard O Bits for extras. Maybe check them out?
Jaynen wrote: Bummed got my scion start collecting and I think each sprue only has one plasma gun? I wanted to use 2 for the Scion Troops unit and 4 for the command squad
You gotta Ebay or start converting. If you have 2-3 boxes of kataphrons then you have at least 3-6 leftover plasma canon bits lying around. With some green stuff and cutting you should be able to ram them onto the hotshot lasgun.
I don't have a good stand in model. And I don't feel like buying one for 25$. I feel like assassins should be good complements for an admech list and would consider running a calidus ... maybe my spare Gemini could be one with some work .... I posted the list I am thinking about in the army list section. I will repost it here.
Spoiler:
IMPERIUM battalion:
Greyfax 85
Celestine 200 (1 gemini)
Conscriptsx20 60
Conscriptsx20 60
Skit Vanguardx5 50 (yes no canticles for these guys, need 50 points of troops and lack models)
Eversor 70
Eversor 70
Eversor 70
Drop the Ballistarii for a Neutron Crawler, and drop the Vanguard for a unit of melta Scions and a Commissar? Sandwich the Commissar and Celestine between tge two Conscript blobs. 1995 points.
Suzuteo wrote: As I stated above, they "fixed" the problem. That is, the problem of the first mover getting a massive advantage is still there, it's just that who gets to go first is less deterministic.
To truly fix the problem, they need to add a penalty to who goes first or give and advantage to who goes second.
I personally favor going back to the old-fashioned way and exacerbating the existing information advantage. Instead of deploying then rolling, you should roll dice first, and whoever has the high roll chooses to go first or second. Whoever goes first deploys their entire army first, then the other player deploys. Finally, if the high-roller chose to go first, the low-roller can roll to seize the initiative. Bwahaha.
How my friends and I deal with this issue is not resolving objectives until the end of battle rounds and not turns. Sure you don't get first turn and potentially wipe up 400pts of the enemy army before they can do anything, but you have a chance to come in and disrupt the first persons objectives and potentially cap their points almost every battle round. More than once have we had people give up first turn for this, and furthermore all our games have been a lot closer, dramatic and fun. Before almost none of our games were even close or entertaining since one side would steam roll the other .
Also lots of terrain. Lots. Blocking Line of sight helps a lot from either side steam rolling each other.
Purple, Green or Red. Infantry; Flying infantry.
I don't think it's purple because of this:
Q: What happens when an Infantry model cannot completely end its move on a floor of ruins when attempting to scale the walls?
A: If an Infantry model is unable to complete a move to a stable position, use the Wobbly Model Syndrome guidelines in the core rules to identify with your opponent where your model’s actual location is.
I'm mostly inclined to believe it's 9'' FLY or not, because of this clip:
https://clips.twitch.tv/AverageAliveNostrilCeilingCat
I'll check my book in a few (heading home from work) but if my memory serves, the table is effectivly treated as a 2d plane. All effects of prior editions and reasons are thrown out in 8th. I think if you just get underneath them, you can attack them. Will confirm soon.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So I doubled checked the rules (my group plays 5th edition terrain rules so I'm not too familiar and I recommend every else does the same but still keep the rest of 8th) and the core rule book does not directly addres the issue.
You will need to come to an agreement with your opponet before gameplay and terrain is setup.
If you want the straightforward and literal use. Treat terrain as literal as possible, units can only travel what they can travel, doorways, ladders and such. However, I would also keep the base rules intact, units can interact with other units on different floors if they are at least 6" vertical. I'm using this from the movement section of the rules. Just for simplicity.
If you want tighter and more tactical. I would say 3" forgiveness instead of 6" and unuits must still follow the charge rules to the letter; meaning you can bottleneck a charging force in a hallway or a ladder or what have you.
Most importantly, just come to an agreement with your opponent before you guys setup the board. That way you will have no contentions or misunderstandings and even better if you guys don't like the way something plays, talk after the battle and make changes.
That being said. I've played more games using Ad Mech Sicarians and Ruststalkers. I don't know about the rest of you, but I've been playing narrative due to the Ultramar campaign at my GW store. Effectively spamming whatever the flavor of the week is. This week was focused on elites. So i played every single elite model I had.
FYI this list is not to be competitive but created to max out my elites as per instructed for the campaign.
I fought Space marines, Chaos Space Marines and 1ksuns for the three games. Here is a run down on how each unit performed.
Here is what really stood out to my. Infiltrators and Rustsalkers really, kinda just suck. Infiltrators are useful, in the fact they can deepstrike and probably take out lightly armored or undefeded infantry; see IG heavy weapons teams, or Tyranid Gaunts. But otherwise, do not perform well nor survive the second turn of their deepstrike.
Still useful, but I think they are overcosted. Need a points reduction or a slight buff to their survivability.
Sicarians.... Overall, very meh. Borderline useless.
They served as a impeadment to my enemy deepstriking and a deterant from an outright charge, but when placed in combat, didn't do anything in any of the three games.
The transonic razors had a super specific and excellent purpose in 7th (where the units was designed to play in) but was relegated to a strange and meaningless place in 8th. Its worse than the infiltrators and only slightly less points. Whom the infiltrators can deep strike and have ranged attacks. They are significantly worse and less hardy than the electro priests, who outperform them in every way, for fewer points. Electropreists have a 5++/5+++ and can get a 3++/5++ and deal out more attacks and more mortal wounds and have a better overall statline than the sicarians. Who do the same job but better in every way.
The main issue I have with these awesome looking but horrible rules models is their rules. I think the GW team, just kinda "skipped" them. They looked at the model and just said, "I dunno, they can't have powersowrds, as the infiltrators already have that, they can't have huge mortal wound dishing out, electropriests have that, I guess, we will just ignore them and think of something later" And they just never gave them rules.
Electropreists: have and presumably always do well. Each game Jazzhands threw out so many attacks they easily made their points back and became pychological weapons. Once your enemy sees how many shots these mooks throw out, expect them to be focused fired on. They do amazing in units of 10, but 3 small units of 5 might be better simply to avoid focus fire being placed on them due to their threat rating.
Disco sticks. Fantastic. I keep them behind my Battle Servitors. My opponent never goes near them. If he is foolish enought to charge or get into charge range, they liquify whatever they get into melee with.
Vanguard: As always, positioning is key. They rarely make more than their points back, but their tactical flexability and decent firepower always make them worthwhile. Even if they do die super easy.
Rangers: Not been useful, not a fault of the unit but of circumstance, I've been fighting Marines and 1ksuns. Their rilfles are simply not suited towards that opponent.
Destroyers: Grav/phospher Always useful, always deadly, place them in terrain and keep the dominus nearby. They are hardy enough to absorb small arms fire and the dominus can repair them with ease and grant them rerolls to hit. Careful, their 6++ is garbage and a kark missle or Laz cannon or even overcharge plasma will turn these SUPER expensive units into lost points if you don't put them in a bunker or place them behind a VOID SHIELD or Landing Pad.
Breachers: These guys either perform amazingly or terribly in my games. Torsion Cannons always. If you take ark rifles on these, you are wasing points. Heavy ark Rifles are cheap, but they are crap. S6 Ap -2 D3, (D6 against vehicals) is simply not hight enough strength to consitantly pose a real threat to vehicals. Unless you wounds on a 4+ (which you wont be for anything heavier than a land speeder) don't bother. Either take the Heavy grav for the anti infantry and even slight anti tank, or take theTorsion cannons which can (unless you have bad luck like me) and will pop vehicals with realtive ease.
It should be noted, if you do list tailor and you know your opponnet is going to be bring lots of light vehicals; sentinals, land speeders, light walkers and so forth, these things would actually be quite useful.
Breachers with Ark claws. Suprisignly effective. A excellent default weapon. S6 Ap-1 D1/Dd3 towards vehicals.
Breachers with Hydralic Claws. S10 AP-1 Dd3 -1 to hit. Arguably the worse weapon/unit combo in the game. This is EVEN WORSE than regular Servitors with Servo arms. AT LEAST servitors with servo arms are only 12 fething points. Not 85. If this weapon did not -1 to WS, I would say, maybe. But with a -1 to WS and ONLY a -1 AP, I would say this is a typo but after the first Errata came up and this wasn't changed, it was confirmed intentional. Never. Ever. Take this. It costs more than the Ark Claws and is worse. Simply don't.
Dominus has consitantly been synergy useful but otherwise worthless model. Eradiation Ray is not bad, but its D3 shots make it unreliable. If Dominus would come down in points to just 100. I think that would be his sweet spot.
Hmm funny, I always thought the Sicarians to be worth it. Infiltrators can just shoot so much they can be useful against light-armoured opponents, and they can still dish out loads of attack with the Goads. The Ruststalkers I've used only a few times since I bought them recently, but I'm really satisfied from them. Twice they were able to counter a 3-man squad of Terminators deep-striking behind me. They put out a lot of attacks and with a little luck, a lot of 6's to Wound for the mortal wounds. Always played them with Razors + Chordclaws.
The Fulgurites are indeed really nice and cheap enough that you're not angry when they die. They finished off a 4 Wounds Deceiver last game on the charge and then became a Gauss-magnet for the whole turn. They died but tanked really good with the 3++ and that's a lot of fire my other flimsy units weren't getting.
You mean never. It will never ing happen. FW will never release that ing book. Today was open day, the best shot we had, and nothing of use came out of it, not even an acknowledgement we exist. A new line of Legion Rhino and Repulsor doors was announced, for god's sake, what makes you think our woefully incomplete army is worth more than ing rhino doors?
Good analysis on the Sicarians, I'll add to it when I get to play my own.
Maybe it won't be coming from FW ? Maybe the codex will bring new minis and so, a new transport. I'd be happy not to blast 80+ euros into a single transport personally.
It pretty much has to come from FW, as they've already stated that's where the rules for hoplites and peltasts will be. And with FW open come and gone, who knows when we'll get rules for them.
Jaynen wrote: Does any other army have NO transports?
We can take IG stuff but not as dedicated and not in our AM detachments right?
Interestingly, it seems the Inquisition doesn't have any transport options in the Index, although I can't remember if they had any before anyway.
Otherwise, the other armies missing transports are:
Knights (but why anyway?), and Daemons.
Oh John Deere.
And on taking the IG stuff:
Oh woe is us, we can't use that stuff Full Stop now.
"...can only transport Astra Militarum Infantry models..." on all their Transportation mentions.
-----
At this point on Cyraxus, despite it looking minorly glintingly little-speck-in-the-sky hopeful now having seen that new Tau thingy, I'm just going to feth it and write my own rules for the time being.
Made enough custom rules during 7th; I'm sure I'll do fine in 8th.
Aaranis wrote: Hmm funny, I always thought the Sicarians to be worth it. Infiltrators can just shoot so much they can be useful against light-armoured opponents, and they can still dish out loads of attack with the Goads. The Ruststalkers I've used only a few times since I bought them recently, but I'm really satisfied from them. Twice they were able to counter a 3-man squad of Terminators deep-striking behind me. They put out a lot of attacks and with a little luck, a lot of 6's to Wound for the mortal wounds. Always played them with Razors + Chordclaws.
The Fulgurites are indeed really nice and cheap enough that you're not angry when they die. They finished off a 4 Wounds Deceiver last game on the charge and then became a Gauss-magnet for the whole turn. They died but tanked really good with the 3++ and that's a lot of fire my other flimsy units weren't getting.
I should clarify, as my post does say borderline worthless, I should expand. They and in and of themselves aren't terrible. However, when placed next to infiltrators and elecetropreists who both do their job and more for slightly more (infiltrators) or even fewer points (electropreists), means there is no good reason to take these models over the other two. And woe to the fool who takes two trazsonic blades instead of the chord claw.
If we were given dunestrider back and a change to the tranzsonic blades/razors I'd say theyd be worth taking, but as in, I personally cannot see any reason to take them. Pay 3 pts more per model to get Infiltrators who can be anywhere on the board at any point you please and have good range capability and can specialise in anti swarm or anti armored. Or take electropreists if you want a powerful melee unit to dish out mortal wounds.
Ruststalkers with blades.... Can attack at S6 with no AP for a single turn... If you give them cantiles... And cause a mortal wound on a 6... But Disco sticks are S5 ap-2 Dd3 and cause D3 mortal wounds and are more survivable than rustalkers.... and are cheaper. That is what I mean by theming being boarderline uesless, they are overshadowed in everyway by their sister models the infitrators and their cousins electropreists.
Tsol wrote: I should clarify, as my post does say borderline worthless, I should expand. They and in and of themselves aren't terrible. However, when placed next to infiltrators and elecetropreists who both do their job and more for slightly more (infiltrators) or even fewer points (electropreists), means there is no good reason to take these models over the other two. And woe to the fool who takes two trazsonic blades instead of the chord claw.
If we were given dunestrider back and a change to the tranzsonic blades/razors I'd say theyd be worth taking, but as in, I personally cannot see any reason to take them. Pay 3 pts more per model to get Infiltrators who can be anywhere on the board at any point you please and have good range capability and can specialise in anti swarm or anti armored. Or take electropreists if you want a powerful melee unit to dish out mortal wounds.
Ruststalkers with blades.... Can attack at S6 with no AP for a single turn... If you give them cantiles... And cause a mortal wound on a 6... But Disco sticks are S5 ap-2 Dd3 and cause D3 mortal wounds and are more survivable than rustalkers.... and are cheaper. That is what I mean by theming being boarderline uesless, they are overshadowed in everyway by their sister models the infitrators and their cousins electropreists.
They're more survivable if they get their 3++, otherwise they're still 1W each while your Ruststalkers have to take two wounds before dying and so you can fail two saves and still have loads of attacks. I've found if you're unlucky in rolling 5+ your five Priests might as well die to Poxwalkers. I agree that they should be taken in squads of 10 for a more optimal use however, that way you still pack some punch despite a few losses, whereas losing 1-2 models in a minimum unit is a serious hit to your offensive abilities.
I like Ruststalkers to defend the backline because they're faster and so can cover distance more easily when I need to save a unit of mine about to get charged, while I keep the Priest hidden in the front to charge through a wall when the opponent is close enough.
I've not given the Electropriests a go yet, partly to do with how fething expensive they are, and the fact I'm still in the mindset of needing to pull off the old 4-Turns of Charging shenanigans you had to in 7th:
In go the Infiltrators, then the Ironstriders, then the Ruststalkers, and then you dare show the Priests and get them stuck in.
Unless you spammed the living daylights out of the blue dudes, I never imagined them getting the job done.
Much to say that I've never even seen them fielded, nor even in Batreps.
Sounds like they're a bit more reliable now, though? Thinking it might be worth taking a few to use as gunline defence, as the rest of you seem to be doing.
Purple, Green or Red. Infantry; Flying infantry.
I don't think it's purple because of this:
Q: What happens when an Infantry model cannot completely end its move on a floor of ruins when attempting to scale the walls?
A: If an Infantry model is unable to complete a move to a stable position, use the Wobbly Model Syndrome guidelines in the core rules to identify with your opponent where your model’s actual location is.
I'm mostly inclined to believe it's 9'' FLY or not, because of this clip:
https://clips.twitch.tv/AverageAliveNostrilCeilingCat
Sort of a YMDC question, but I would say table distance plus vertical distance.
There is a related FAQ for this:
Q: How do vertical distances work for movement and measurements?
A: All distances are measured in three dimensions, so if a unit moves over a hill or scales a wall, the horizontal distance and vertical distance combined cannot exceed its Movement characteristic. This means that in order to traverse across an obstacle, you must move up to the top of that obstacle, move across the top of it, then move down it.
I got some time in with the Dragoons today. Love them! Definitely a niche unit, but their mobility was invaluable. They were often ignored and when they weren't the Incense, Shroudpsalm, and T6 was enough to keep them rolling. They were good at clearing out weaker units and jumping onto objectives. Really satisfied with them. The Arquebus Rangers aren't impressing me. The AP means that the wounds rarely go through. Might opt out of Skitarii entirely now that I have three of my Dragoons painted.
Also, Infiltrators also did a solid job today. Taking distant objectives, linebreaking, and shooting up weak units. Similar to the Dragoons, but different. Really a useful unit.
Next thing I want to get more time with is the Fulgurites. Haven't had a chance to get them into melee yet. Really, really hoping we get Fires of Cyraxus before Christmas. I really would love some Triaros to haul them around with. Finding the army a bit tiring to play - just a static gunline mostly. Not particularly riveting to play.
Tsol wrote: I should clarify, as my post does say borderline worthless, I should expand. They and in and of themselves aren't terrible. However, when placed next to infiltrators and elecetropreists who both do their job and more for slightly more (infiltrators) or even fewer points (electropreists), means there is no good reason to take these models over the other two. And woe to the fool who takes two trazsonic blades instead of the chord claw.
If we were given dunestrider back and a change to the tranzsonic blades/razors I'd say theyd be worth taking, but as in, I personally cannot see any reason to take them. Pay 3 pts more per model to get Infiltrators who can be anywhere on the board at any point you please and have good range capability and can specialise in anti swarm or anti armored. Or take electropreists if you want a powerful melee unit to dish out mortal wounds.
Ruststalkers with blades.... Can attack at S6 with no AP for a single turn... If you give them cantiles... And cause a mortal wound on a 6... But Disco sticks are S5 ap-2 Dd3 and cause D3 mortal wounds and are more survivable than rustalkers.... and are cheaper. That is what I mean by theming being boarderline uesless, they are overshadowed in everyway by their sister models the infitrators and their cousins electropreists.
They're more survivable if they get their 3++, otherwise they're still 1W each while your Ruststalkers have to take two wounds before dying and so you can fail two saves and still have loads of attacks. I've found if you're unlucky in rolling 5+ your five Priests might as well die to Poxwalkers. I agree that they should be taken in squads of 10 for a more optimal use however, that way you still pack some punch despite a few losses, whereas losing 1-2 models in a minimum unit is a serious hit to your offensive abilities.
I like Ruststalkers to defend the backline because they're faster and so can cover distance more easily when I need to save a unit of mine about to get charged, while I keep the Priest hidden in the front to charge through a wall when the opponent is close enough.
Its sad, because I love the models. In 7th I played a 5 man squad of each of the rust stalkers and infiltrators variants just because I thought they were so cool looking. They were overcosted but still good, if a bit squishy. This edition they are realativly cheap, I think its 100pts for five if my memory serves, for the chordclad razor combo. But for 100 points I personaly, would rather more Vanguard, or I'd pay the extra 20 points to just take infiltrators. Though if I wanted a defender unit, I would never take the sicarians over the electropreists. Admittedly this is preference but I'll explain why. For 100 points you get a five man squad of Ruststalkers, T3 4+/6++ 2 wounds. Mildly fast, S4 ap 0, 3 attacks and has an above average chance to cause a few mortal wounds. Or if I spend 160 points I can get 10 Discosticks, T3, 10 wounds, 2 attacks at S5 AP-2 Dd3 and same chance (other than less attacks) to cause mortal wounds. Plus their 5++/5+++ save. I have noticed that many people think a 4+ save is better than a 5++/5+++. It is not, the latter is statistically better and more akin to a 3+ save (being generious with fractions). Plus their added bonus of cauisng mortal wounds on the charge and if they kill an enemy unit in melee get an astonishing 3++/5++. Which honestly wont help you, as your opponent will focus fire the crap out of them until they all die, but hey, everything shooting at them, is not shooting at the rest of your stuff. This is why I cannot see myself ever taking sicarians for competitive reasons, other than, they look cool.
Though as you've said, I too have pretty much only used ruststalkers as a second defensive line, though they have underperformed in each game. This should be noted I most (currently) am playing against Space Marines, Chaos and 1ksuns.
And I agree as well. Despite what many people are saying in this thread, I think taking minimum units is a poor idea for Admech unless your goal is MSU. You need the bodies for the extra firepower to keep your units functional. Admech has lost much of its staying power in this edition. A flat 6++ although nice, is objectivly worse, than the old 6+++
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Buddingsquaw wrote: I've not given the Electropriests a go yet, partly to do with how fething expensive they are, and the fact I'm still in the mindset of needing to pull off the old 4-Turns of Charging shenanigans you had to in 7th:
In go the Infiltrators, then the Ironstriders, then the Ruststalkers, and then you dare show the Priests and get them stuck in.
Unless you spammed the living daylights out of the blue dudes, I never imagined them getting the job done.
Much to say that I've never even seen them fielded, nor even in Batreps.
Sounds like they're a bit more reliable now, though? Thinking it might be worth taking a few to use as gunline defence, as the rest of you seem to be doing.
I never even considered using them in 7th. They were laughably bad. In this new edition, they've gone up in points, but their abilities easily make up for them. However, they still suffer the same weakness a 5++/5++ is not bad, but also not reliable. Positioning these mooks is key; hiding them behind line of sight, or keeping better targets available to keep fire off them. The good news is, their save is so bad (0) that you never need to worry about putting them in cover, as it will never be better than your 5++. The Jazzhands are tough for the first few times, because ideally, you want a dominus next to them. His rerolls of 1 are best used with these guys (or canticles). since they will be hitting on a 3+ reroll 1s and explode into 2 extra hits on 6s. I always take at least 10 in a squad and when they fire I more often then not, get more hits than I originally rolled. Usually around 36 hits from the 30 shots. This is even more absurd if they are near Cawl. Their high strength of 5 but no AP makes them great at killing anything not a vehicle. As termies will die from sheer dice rolls, and marines or anything lighter cannot possibly pass that many armor saves. It can be difficult to manuver them though, as they will fall to both small arms fire and big arms, though you might be surprised how much they may take with a bit of luck. Harder still once your opponents learn of their firepower, they will be gunning for them, making their deployment and positioning even more important for later games.
Discosticks, don't always do much for me. This is not a fault of their own, but all my regular opponents have fought them and lost to them and now go nowhere near them. They kill marines, guardsmen, and terminators with equal efficiency. They can kill dreadnaughts and Chaos lords with relative ease. However, they are relativly slow and with no transports, you can't rely on running these guys up the board unless your opponent doesn't know what they are capable of, and ignores them. They are thus best used to defend your best shooty stuff from melee harm. An ideal countercharge unit which can kill just about anything, and if it does, suddenly becomes one of the most hard to kill units in the game. Again, I recommend squads of 10 like the Jazzhands, however, these guys can still do well in just 5 man squads.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: I got some time in with the Dragoons today. Love them! Definitely a niche unit, but their mobility was invaluable. They were often ignored and when they weren't the Incense, Shroudpsalm, and T6 was enough to keep them rolling. They were good at clearing out weaker units and jumping onto objectives. Really satisfied with them. The Arquebus Rangers aren't impressing me. The AP means that the wounds rarely go through. Might opt out of Skitarii entirely now that I have three of my Dragoons painted.
Also, Infiltrators also did a solid job today. Taking distant objectives, linebreaking, and shooting up weak units. Similar to the Dragoons, but different. Really a useful unit.
Next thing I want to get more time with is the Fulgurites. Haven't had a chance to get them into melee yet. Really, really hoping we get Fires of Cyraxus before Christmas. I really would love some Triaros to haul them around with. Finding the army a bit tiring to play - just a static gunline mostly. Not particularly riveting to play.
As I have stated numerous times, Dragoons aren't the greatest unit on paper, but their role is indispensable. They give us the mobility necessary in a progressive objective game; because there's no point to good artillery if nothing can hold the ground that the guns clear.
And yeah, even I think the Arquebus Rangers aren't too great. The real problem is that they can't kill Commissars fast enough to make a difference.
If you do need Deep Strike and unit deletion, maybe try a Patrol detachment of Plasma Scions?
Since this is the tactics corner, Id like you to invite into some tactics discussion. I will be playing an RT next weekend. 1850, its Maelstrom and Eternal War combined, old "who goes first" rules. This is my list:
Knight Crusader
- Stormspear rocket pod
- Rapid-fire battle cannon + Heavy stubber
- Heavy stubber
- - - > 585
1849 p
Since all lists are released, we got a good chance of just talking about real tactics here. And maybe give me some kind of ideas on how to handle things.
Lets start with the oh so glorious Smurf parking lot
Spoiler:
Imperium: Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment - 360
*************** 1 Lord of War ***************
Roboute Guilliman
- - - > 360
*************** 6 Heavy Support ***************
Devastator Squad
5 Space Marines, Armorium Cherub, 1 x Boltgun, 2 x Heavy bolter, 1 x Lascannon
+ Sergeant, 1 x Boltgun -> 0 Pkt.
- - - > 115
Devastator Squad
5 Space Marines, Armorium Cherub, 1 x Boltgun, 1 x Heavy bolter, 2 x Lascannon
+ Sergeant, 1 x Boltgun -> 0 Pkt.
- - - > 130
Devastator Squad
5 Space Marines, Armorium Cherub, 1 x Boltgun, 2 x Heavy bolter, 1 x Lascannon
+ Sergeant, 1 x Boltgun -> 0 Pkt.
- - - > 115
Devastator Squad
5 Space Marines, Armorium Cherub, 1 x Boltgun, 1 x Heavy bolter, 2 x Lascannon
+ Sergeant, 1 x Boltgun -> 0 Pkt.
- - - > 130
Devastator Squad
5 Space Marines, Armorium Cherub, 2 x Boltgun, 1 x Heavy bolter, 1 x Grav-cannon
+ Sergeant, 1 x Boltgun -> 0 Pkt.
- - - > 108
Devastator Squad
5 Space Marines, Armorium Cherub, 2 x Boltgun, 1 x Heavy bolter, 1 x Grav-cannon
+ Sergeant, 1 x Boltgun -> 0 Pkt.
- - - > 108
I think my chances rely heavily on the deployment zones. Whether or not I have the chance that the Assbacks are able to fire efficiently in the first round and if my knight dies to all those freaking lasershots.
Suzuteo wrote: @Iago40k
Is the 585 point Crusader non-negotiable? Because that's a third of your army in points...
Maybe go with a TC+Avenger Crusader or a Stormspear+Gauntlet Warden instead?
Nope, the list is final. hadnt had time to paint up more Onager or Kastellans and wanted to try out the knight. He can be a liability, sure. But I have to work with what I got. On the other hand: He has great output and brings some melee capabilities to the table which AdMech is lacking.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: I got some time in with the Dragoons today. Love them! Definitely a niche unit, but their mobility was invaluable. They were often ignored and when they weren't the Incense, Shroudpsalm, and T6 was enough to keep them rolling. They were good at clearing out weaker units and jumping onto objectives. Really satisfied with them. The Arquebus Rangers aren't impressing me. The AP means that the wounds rarely go through. Might opt out of Skitarii entirely now that I have three of my Dragoons painted.
Also, Infiltrators also did a solid job today. Taking distant objectives, linebreaking, and shooting up weak units. Similar to the Dragoons, but different. Really a useful unit.
Next thing I want to get more time with is the Fulgurites. Haven't had a chance to get them into melee yet. Really, really hoping we get Fires of Cyraxus before Christmas. I really would love some Triaros to haul them around with. Finding the army a bit tiring to play - just a static gunline mostly. Not particularly riveting to play.
As I have stated numerous times, Dragoons aren't the greatest unit on paper, but their role is indispensable. They give us the mobility necessary in a progressive objective game; because there's no point to good artillery if nothing can hold the ground that the guns clear.
And yeah, even I think the Arquebus Rangers aren't too great. The real problem is that they can't kill Commissars fast enough to make a difference.
If you do need Deep Strike and unit deletion, maybe try a Patrol detachment of Plasma Scions?
Currently not going outside of faction, but I most likely will tinker with Scions eventually. Good models, would be fun to paint and add visual variety to my army.
Suzuteo wrote: @Iago40k
Is the 585 point Crusader non-negotiable? Because that's a third of your army in points...
Maybe go with a TC+Avenger Crusader or a Stormspear+Gauntlet Warden instead?
Nope, the list is final. hadnt had time to paint up more Onager or Kastellans and wanted to try out the knight. He can be a liability, sure. But I have to work with what I got. On the other hand: He has great output and brings some melee capabilities to the table which AdMech is lacking.
I see. And yes, I agree with you that a Knight solves a lot of problems. He is anti-tank, anti-horde, and melee rolled up into one super-heavy, high mobility package.
As for your strategy against the Razorback list, you're pretty much just looking to do a few things:
1. Outshoot your opponent. You have range on him, so use it. Be sure to concentrate fire on embarked Razorbacks with your Neutron Crawlers; look for lucky failed emergency disembarks. Protect the Neutron Crawlers at all costs. Everything else should be aiming at disembarked MEQs.
2. Tie up his Razorbacks in CC with your Dragoon, Knights, even Cawl himself (remember, your Crawlers can move and shoot, so if they are getting too close, have them scoot backward and have Cawl charge forward). Keep in mind though that Razorbacks are bricks with shooting that you cannot ignore. Tying them down in CC while your artillery shoots the MEQs is more important than eliminating them outright, which takes much longer. Remember, no need to deploy defensively to block Deep Strike; deploy aggressively with all of your Dragoons and Knights at the end of the deployment zone and everything else as far back as possible.
3. Try to use terrain to make disembarking difficult; they have to disembark all of 5 MEQs at the start of the Movement phase within 3" of the Razorback, but 1" away from your Dragoons and Knight while leaving enough room for the Razorback to fall back. In close quarters, this can be really tough.
Suzuteo wrote: @Iago40k
Is the 585 point Crusader non-negotiable? Because that's a third of your army in points...
Maybe go with a TC+Avenger Crusader or a Stormspear+Gauntlet Warden instead?
Nope, the list is final. hadnt had time to paint up more Onager or Kastellans and wanted to try out the knight. He can be a liability, sure. But I have to work with what I got. On the other hand: He has great output and brings some melee capabilities to the table which AdMech is lacking.
I see. And yes, I agree with you that a Knight solves a lot of problems. He is anti-tank, anti-horde, and melee rolled up into one super-heavy, high mobility package.
As for your strategy against the Razorback list, you're pretty much just looking to do a few things:
1. Outshoot your opponent. You have range on him, so use it. Be sure to concentrate fire on embarked Razorbacks with your Neutron Crawlers; look for lucky failed emergency disembarks. Protect the Neutron Crawlers at all costs. Everything else should be aiming at disembarked MEQs.
2. Tie up his Razorbacks in CC with your Dragoon, Knights, even Cawl himself (remember, your Crawlers can move and shoot, so if they are getting too close, have them scoot backward and have Cawl charge forward). Keep in mind though that Razorbacks are bricks with shooting that you cannot ignore. Tying them down in CC while your artillery shoots the MEQs is more important than eliminating them outright, which takes much longer. Remember, no need to deploy defensively to block Deep Strike; deploy aggressively with all of your Dragoons and Knights at the end of the deployment zone and everything else as far back as possible.
3. Try to use terrain to make disembarking difficult; they have to disembark all of 5 MEQs at the start of the Movement phase within 3" of the Razorback, but 1" away from your Dragoons and Knight while leaving enough room for the Razorback to fall back. In close quarters, this can be really tough.
Those are some great times. Thank you. I think one of the most important choices in every game is to decide when and if you are going forward with your walkers and Cawl. But you got some great points. I think I can work with those. I played a parking lot once but not with a knight in my list, instead I had 4 Onagers, 4 Dragoons and some more Kastellans. But as stated, the knight gives a lot of melee punch plus great shooting.
Okay, the next list is way trickier for me, since I never played Tau Commander spam. List goes like this
I really have to try to get the commanders to drop out of range to secure my Artillery but other than that I am not sure what to do and what shennanigans I have to watch out for.
Guess what armies I have... You guessed it: AdMech, Imperial Knights(1 for warcon :p) and Daemons. Boy, I must have lucked out.
Although daemons are fine-ish now. Characters + cheap troops = best transport
Iago40k wrote: Those are some great times. Thank you. I think one of the most important choices in every game is to decide when and if you are going forward with your walkers and Cawl. But you got some great points. I think I can work with those. I played a parking lot once but not with a knight in my list, instead I had 4 Onagers, 4 Dragoons and some more Kastellans. But as stated, the knight gives a lot of melee punch plus great shooting.
Okay, the next list is way trickier for me, since I never played Tau Commander spam. List goes like this
I really have to try to get the commanders to drop out of range to secure my Artillery but other than that I am not sure what to do and what shennanigans I have to watch out for.
Eh... you might struggle because you have only one Icarus and the "first to deploy, first to move" rule, but that's not even the scariest Tau list. No Stealth Battlesuits, Coldstars, or Quad Fusion Commanders. Homing Beacons can drop an army right in your lap. Coldstar Commanders can rush your Kastelans by advancing 40" through your screen, shoot their AC and then punch your Kastelans. You can't fall back the next round, so the Coldstars are safe. The next turn, they fall back, then shoot again or just sit there. The counter to this, of course, is to stay in Aegis mode; your Icarus Crawlers are your main threat to them anyway. Most competitive lists I see have a pair of Quad Fusion Commanders. They will quite literally melt your Knight, and they synergize with the Stealth Battlesuits really well.
Anyhow, most AdMech vs. Tau matches are just both sides taking turns shooting at one another (with the Tau moving under cover). You're going to want to:
1. Force them to come into the range of your guns. Tau durability is not amazing, and as long as you can outrange them, you can outshoot them. Include as many objectives as you can within the radius of your guns.
2. Deny them area to maneuver. Deploy your Dragoons and Dragoons Knights sideways and 18" away from your Kastelans, which in turn are no more than 12" from your Crawlers (usually very close, actually, unless you are in H&A), which are in turn no more than 9" from the board edge (usually right up against it). This prevents battlesuits from deep striking, and it also forces them to move past your Dragoons' bases in order to attack with their CIC. Every bit of distance counts; 26" is the magic distance here, as this is as far as a Commander with CIC can threaten you, with a Dragoon base, this number becomes somewhere between 29 and 30". Also spread out your infantry in the same area.
3. Don't bother trying to engage them in CC or playing the mobile game the first few turns unless they get too close. Every Tau and his mom flies and has good move, so if anything gets isolated, it's going to die. Be patient and force them to come to you.
4. Clear Drones purposefully. You have to clear these guys to get to the Commanders, but figure out which units are going to be the biggest threat and clear those Drones first.
5. You can pretty much ignore their Devilfish and Fire Warriors. It will take them forever to get in range, and they take forever to kill any of the important vehicles with our repair. As for Markerlights, if they want to mark you, they will. Focus on removing their big guns from the board so that when they do shoot, it won't hurt nearly as much as your return fire.
as always it seems that deployment zones are very critical. Frontline Assault and Dawn of War will lead to a disaster I reckon. At least the chances are pretty good that I get first turn so I have to deploy as such and get in a position from where I can advance into positions that will block the majority of his drops.
Apologies for interrupting, I started a Steel Legion/Skitarii army in 7th Edition and was proud enough to get some painting done. The idea was to have mechanized IG with the Skitariis added, however, in 8th Edition my cool idea of many Chimeras and LRBT as core seems to have drowned.
Neverheless, trying to make use of the models now, what would you prefer as screening units if you have IG and AM available? Vanguard (incl. Bonus from Cawl and Canticles) or simply an Infantery Squad?
I'm trying to avoid conscripts and scions because I don't want to paint huge amounts of new soldiers now just to see them get nerfed sooner than later and also I do like to keep the mechanized theme up as much as possible.
In extension, as everybody mentions the need for Dragoons to offer a mobile option, would a Hellhound or a Veteran/Infantrysquad in a Chimera do the job better?
Apologies for interrupting, I started a Steel Legion/Skitarii army in 7th Edition and was proud enough to get some painting done. The idea was to have mechanized IG with the Skitariis added, however, in 8th Edition my cool idea of many Chimeras and LRBT as core seems to have drowned.
Neverheless, trying to make use of the models now, what would you prefer as screening units if you have IG and AM available? Vanguard (incl. Bonus from Cawl and Canticles) or simply an Infantery Squad?
I'm trying to avoid conscripts because I don't want to paint huge amounts of soldiers now just to see them get nerfed sooner than later and also I do like to keep the mechanized theme up as much as possible.
In extension, as everybody mentions the need for Dragoons to offer a mobile option, would a Hellhound or a Veteran/Infantrysquad in a Chimera do the job better?
Thanks for any answers in advance.
In my opinion, Conscripts and Dragoons are the "best" screening choices. The former, when combined with a Commissar and/or Celestine, are a huge brick to block people with. The downside, of course, is that you pretty much can't play the progressive objective game with them, and you would be committing to tabling your opponent. (When Guard armies do the Conscript block plus artillery combo, the other half of their army is usually nothing but Scions and Tauroxes.)
I use Dragoons as my screen. I usually pair them to make them harder to kill, but not so large as to make moving through terrain difficult. My army is 100% mechanized--zero infantry aside from HQs and the Datasmith.
A veteran squad in a Chimera is much more expensive than a Dragoon, and they are not too great in CC. That being said, they would be mobile, though again, Scions in Tauroxes with Deep Strike are preferable.
Whats the minimum number of dragoons you have to have to run a decent screen?
Note that I only own around 1400-1500 pts total and thats IF you count some scions
I have 1250 pts of AM if you count Cawl and I am running a battalion which means I am taking the Techpriest Dominus also
Which on another note should I not do that and take a different detachment type?
I havent even assembled the scions yet but was planning to run the command squad 4 plasma, normal scions unit 2 plasma, and the tempestor prime with command rod (but he can only do one command per group per turn right?)
And was considering running the Taurox Prime as a gunboat with the hot shot lasers and the gatling cannon. Maybe it could work as a screening unit until I have dragoons?
Also what HQ options do we have for being able to take assassins into our detachments? I saw mention of the Inquisitors like Greyfax
Jaynen wrote: Whats the minimum number of dragoons you have to have to run a decent screen?
Note that I only own around 1400-1500 pts total and thats IF you count some scions
I have 1250 pts of AM if you count Cawl and I am running a battalion which means I am taking the Techpriest Dominus also
Which on another note should I not do that and take a different detachment type?
I havent even assembled the scions yet but was planning to run the command squad 4 plasma, normal scions unit 2 plasma, and the tempestor prime with command rod (but he can only do one command per group per turn right?)
And was considering running the Taurox Prime as a gunboat with the hot shot lasers and the gatling cannon. Maybe it could work as a screening unit until I have dragoons?
Also what HQ options do we have for being able to take assassins into our detachments? I saw mention of the Inquisitors like Greyfax
The minimum that I would recommend is 2x2. In my experience, you ideally want three units of Dragoons with a Knight, four without. Though I suppose this depends on other factors. A unit of Scions, for example, can replace a unit of Dragoons.
I would advise against the Battalion. You don't need to pay that Dominus tax, and Dragoons can replace Vanguard. You also can't run Scions in that detachment without taking away Canticles, which makes your Dragoons a lot squishier.
I got in my last league game yesterday - 2000pt against Dark Eldar - which is not a good match-up for them, generally. Poison isn't doing much to my army, although all those Dark Lances do some heavy lifting. It was a pretty savage win (30 VP to 10 VP). I started the game by knocking out one of his flyers on T1 with my Icarus array and blasting at least two "boats" a turn pretty reliably with Neutronagers. The Dragoons proved useful again - very mobile and good for what they do. I did get my Fulgurites into combat for the first time... and they didn't kill the unit. Of course, I did forget to roll for my 6's to get d3 mortal wounds, because it was late and I was tired. So that was probably why! I think they are a solid choice, because they were my counter-assault unit and did exactly that. My Rangers against didn't do much. The Arquebus leaves a lot to be desired. I likely won't be taking them in my non-League lists. Infiltrators did some solid lifting too - came in, blasted a unit that got its transport wrecked, managed to get into combat (!) and wipe them out. Tasers proved pretty solid with that many attacks, because I got so many extra attacks and volume of attacks is always good. I did get charged by a dedicated CC unit after one of his characters went (who he thought would wipe the unit), I did a Counter-Offensive and hit back pretty hard. Not hard enough to kill the Incubi, but hey... it was worth a shot!
Anyhow, I am likely going to take a bit of a break after the tourney and wait for the Codex to hit. I expect our Robots will jump to 150 each, at least. Hopefully the Kataphrons come down to make up for that and we get back some variety.
I will post up an overview of the tournament Sunday. I was only really gunning for "Best Painted", but if I place in the Top 3 for game results, I will be pleased.
After reading a lot of stuff, I personally am torn. I actually think you don't need to use the Hive to get the bonus attacks (so you can do 4 Axe hits and 2D6 Hive hits). That is how the Space Wolves have been playing with Chainswords anyway...
IMO the use of the word 'fight' is the important part.
'each time this model fights'
not 'attacks'
My interpretation is you select Cawl to fight, he gets his 4 attacks normally, as well as the 2d6 mechadendrite hive attacks.
You only ever fight once with a model, even if they have multiple attacks and multiple weapons, unless you have a stratagem or similar that lets you do it twice.
To the rules of Cawl: I would actually be lost to understand why the hive uses up an attack.
It "clearly" (well...not) states that each time he fights he can make the attacks, I don't see a connection to his base attacks here as he makes "additional attacks". If it would use an attack you might as well start arguing he can use the hive four times and utilize all attacks for it?
With regard to mixing IG and AM forces: Is there actually any unit except Scions and Conscripts the IG offers to AM which does a better job than the available AM option and screams to be included? I keep looking at all options and somehow end up with a very AM dominant army every time, especially as I don't see an outstanding way to add a full IG detachment of any kind without making a bad choice.
AwesomeJester wrote: To the rules of Cawl: I would actually be lost to understand why the hive uses up an attack.
It "clearly" (well...not) states that each time he fights he can make the attacks, I don't see a connection to his base attacks here as he makes "additional attacks". If it would use an attack you might as well start arguing he can use the hive four times and utilize all attacks for it?
With regard to mixing IG and AM forces: Is there actually any unit except Scions and Conscripts the IG offers to AM which does a better job than the available AM option and screams to be included? I keep looking at all options and somehow end up with a very AM dominant army every time, especially as I don't see an outstanding way to add a full IG detachment of any kind without making a bad choice.
Yeah. So 4 attacks + 2D6 Hive attacks.
In addition to Conscripts and Scions, you have Sisters of Battle with Celestine; Ultramarines with Girlyman; Dante with Stormravens; Greyfax or Primaris Psyker with Astropaths; and maybe Inquisitors with Acolytes (it was hilarious how they originally had 2 attacks and 3 wounds for 10 points; it's now 1 wound, but still 2 attacks).
The reason I would think it might be 3 attacks and only 1 with the hive would be because under the fight/weapons rule it says a unit gets the number of attacks it gets on its stat sheet and can choose a weapon per attack.
The hive itself is listed under "weapons" not under special rules
Similar to some of the other weapons like missiles which say you can only use this weapon once per turn
I've got a Scions Unit I am building now to try along with my AdMech.
I played my first little game yesterday at around 730 points and ended up winning.
All my small stuff ended up getting obliterated as soon as it was in range of my space marine opponent and he got hosed as soon as he got within range of my 2 kastellans in protector while my neutron onager was hanging back and shooting at his captain etc.
My biggest issues I felt were.
* Very immobile
* I didn't have any units that could really advance to objectives and then effectively hold them very long
The Kastellans with their 18 shots each killed about 4 marines per turn devastating his two tactical squads of 5
Sisters of Battle is interesting. Dominion squad gets to move after everyone else sets up turn 1. So that's a 6" move. Use Celestine's act of faith they could move again or their own/your armies act of faith they could move again
Jaynen wrote: I've got the start collecting tempestus box so the tempestor prime , command squad, and scion squad will likely be what I run instead of infiltrators
And I might use the Taurox Prime in the same way you use the dragoons and see how that goes
Jaynen wrote: Yeah for 100 points 14" move 10 wounds BS 3+ T6 Armor save 3+ 24" range you can get 31 str 4 shots per turn
Which so far in 8th it seems to me volume of fire is largely more effective than fewer shots with higher str in almost every case
Volume in a dice game is almost always the best route anyhow, due to statistics. Forcing them into that 16% chance of rolling a 1 is the way to go. Our Robots do it better than anyone!
If I didn't think FoC would bring us transports and more units, I would probably grab Scions now. But I am going to keep waiting for FoC... likely forever!
I can confirm the cheapest Taurox Prime is a nice add to the army. I use it to transport 5 Scions with flamer, volley gun, plasma pistol & chainsword, as well as a Lord Commissar with power fist and plasma pistol too. They rarely survive all the game but they can be really nice against certain armies. My commissar once held his own against a Swarmlord in CC for two turns before retreating to allow me to shoot it down, I try to field him when I can now and gave him the power fist to deal with more Swarmlords Also have the famous Command Squad with 2 plasmas and 2 meltas and the Tempestor Prime with command rod, they can be devastating too if the dice allow.
I'm currently planning on adding a small Deathwatch force to my army for 2000+ pts for after I'll complete a bit my army with another Dunecrawler or two and five more Fulgurites. I was thinking on a Kill Team of five with a Watch Master for the full rerolls to hit, in a twin-lascannon Razorback for driving them up close at range for a salvo or two of frag cannon and shotgun, before engaging in CC with them, with a storm shield + power sword and a xenophase blade + plasma pistol combo on the Black Shield and Sergeant as they both have 3 attacks. I'd add five Vanguard Veterans for the mobility and CC capabilities too, and a Venerable Dreadnought with twin-lascannon, heavy flamer and CCW. That would give me 4 lascannon shots as well as CC support and good ranged weaponry too, while allowing me to paint something else for once
It seems they got nerfed in their codex in a way because as I understood it they now can never deal more than 1 Mortal Wound per smite for some reason, however they have nice other Psychic Powers like the one that allow to target a unit without needing LoS. However I don't know what role they could fill in an AdMech army. Mobility perhaps ? They have jump troops and the Dreadknight can teleport. I really don't know their units so can't really advise on them.
Aaranis wrote: It seems they got nerfed in their codex in a way because as I understood it they now can never deal more than 1 Mortal Wound per smite for some reason, however they have nice other Psychic Powers like the one that allow to target a unit without needing LoS. However I don't know what role they could fill in an AdMech army. Mobility perhaps ? They have jump troops and the Dreadknight can teleport. I really don't know their units so can't really advise on them.
I have been looking at their army for a way to add a highly mobile CC element to our artillery. GMNDKs, NDKs and Interceptors caught my eye. They can all Deep Strike, plus Interceptors get to re-deploy once per game (or again via a strategem). We could really benefit from that, as our artillery is static.
Here was a quick brainstorm:
HQ:
Cawl
[250]
Elites:
Cybernetica Datasmith
Gamma, Power Fist
[52]
Heavy:
(2) Kastelan Robot
Triple Heavy Phosphor Blasters
[220]
(2) Kastelan Robot
Triple Heavy Phosphor Blasters
[220]
Heavy:
NDK
Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Psycannons, Greatsword, Teleporter
[225]
[965]
[1980]
GKs can Deep Strike in and shoot, then charge with a re-roll (GM) and all get re-rolls to-hit. So, you have a highly mobile CC element and a load of firepower from the AdMech.
Jaynen wrote: As a newbie what do you mean VirtualJava? Your guys dont die until the end of a round IE both players turns?
I'm not on too often lol. So kill points there isn't much you can do, but with those missions where you have to claim points on the table and outnumber the opponent, that is where we only score those points at the end of the battle round. Again the only thing you can really do vs one side getting annihilated off the table is to use a lot of line of sight blocking terrain and areas for cover. For us it's worked well so far. But thats anecdotal. Either way if its an issue in your club it couldn't hurt to try it out and if everyone hates it then find the solution that works for you guys!
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Aaranis, speaking of add-on detachments - any thoughts on GKs?
Had a bit of fun involving Infiltrators and Paladins tonight:
Take an Ancient with a banner, Warlord with +1 Ld aura, and stick the enemy with the -1 Ld Neurostatic aura.
Ld 11 effectively for the Paladin Commander.
Managed to pull off 8 mortal wounds in 1 shot with Purge Soul on a Hellbrute, and that was without the Infiltrators giving it the old Neurostatic!
Just a shame we don't currently have the Holy Requisitioner shenanigans, because that'd tie in nicely with the Teleportariums. Nice enough getting the Infiltrators stuck right in with the GKs though.
Jaynen wrote: The reason I would think it might be 3 attacks and only 1 with the hive would be because under the fight/weapons rule it says a unit gets the number of attacks it gets on its stat sheet and can choose a weapon per attack.
The hive itself is listed under "weapons" not under special rules
Similar to some of the other weapons like missiles which say you can only use this weapon once per turn
I've got a Scions Unit I am building now to try along with my AdMech.
I played my first little game yesterday at around 730 points and ended up winning.
All my small stuff ended up getting obliterated as soon as it was in range of my space marine opponent and he got hosed as soon as he got within range of my 2 kastellans in protector while my neutron onager was hanging back and shooting at his captain etc.
My biggest issues I felt were.
* Very immobile
* I didn't have any units that could really advance to objectives and then effectively hold them very long
The Kastellans with their 18 shots each killed about 4 marines per turn devastating his two tactical squads of 5
Sisters of Battle is interesting. Dominion squad gets to move after everyone else sets up turn 1. So that's a 6" move. Use Celestine's act of faith they could move again or their own/your armies act of faith they could move again
As I said, if we treat Hive like Chainswords, it ought to be 4 + 2D6.
Scions are really strong, and you definitely can use them in a Taurox. I actually recommend a Patrol Detachment with a Tempestor Prime, a command squad, a regular squad. All plasma guns.
Yeah. We're an artillery army. So the idea is to have a static component that beats the tar out of everything and a mobile component that can go around grabbing objectives and screen.
Don't expect the Kastelan thing to work against people who know what it does. Their role really is to force the opponent into making bad trades.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Aaranis, speaking of add-on detachments - any thoughts on GKs?
Had a bit of fun involving Infiltrators and Paladins tonight:
Take an Ancient with a banner, Warlord with +1 Ld aura, and stick the enemy with the -1 Ld Neurostatic aura.
Ld 11 effectively for the Paladin Commander.
Managed to pull off 8 mortal wounds in 1 shot with Purge Soul on a Hellbrute, and that was without the Infiltrators giving it the old Neurostatic!
Just a shame we don't currently have the Holy Requisitioner shenanigans, because that'd tie in nicely with the Teleportariums. Nice enough getting the Infiltrators stuck right in with the GKs though.
People use Paladins? I mean, I just see them as overpriced Terminators.
I know that the Triple-Phospher DakKastelan is the go-to choice for most people on here, but I was just wondering how effective the Fists-Bot is? Is it worth taking?
I like the idea of a big 70's style robot walking up the field tearing things apart with its bare hands. Maybe with the giant flamer on its shoulder.
How would you run a squad of these? One immediate issue I'm seeing, is that they move 8" a turn... and their necessary overseer Datasmith only moved 6" a turn. So he's going to lag behind.
Niiru wrote: I know that the Triple-Phospher DakKastelan is the go-to choice for most people on here, but I was just wondering how effective the Fists-Bot is? Is it worth taking?
I like the idea of a big 70's style robot walking up the field tearing things apart with its bare hands. Maybe with the giant flamer on its shoulder.
How would you run a squad of these? One immediate issue I'm seeing, is that they move 8" a turn... and their necessary overseer Datasmith only moved 6" a turn. So he's going to lag behind.
I just pulled a 5-man Melée Kastellan Deathstar in a 750 point game today, and my god do they get the job done. [Was on a 4x4 board, mind]
Faced Eldar with a Vindicare;
Despite all the Doom and rerolling malarkey the Elderp do, I tanked the lot of it. Lost 2 of the robots, but the other 3 stood strong, sure as hell helped by the Datasmith fixing them.
Dominus really didn't do much, apart from draw the first 2 turns of fire whilst the robots decked it for the trees.
You'd think, since the Domini are specialised towards Cybernetica, that the 40k counterpart would do something a little more interesting with robots.
Datasmith didn't have any trouble keeping up, and keep in mind that the repair job is at the end of the movement phase, and so can be done even if he advanced!
You should be worried about Supercharged Plasma fire, though. Fortunate that I didn't go against any proper anti-tank weaponry, because that would've definitely caused problems.
But, remembering that, with Aegis protocol, they have 4+ invuln to shooting. Just need to be savvy with cover and LoS, and you should be able to repair through it all.
(And yes, I did omit giving two of the Kastellans their ranged weapons, which isn't strictly allowed in the rules. I only shot the flamethrowers once anyway)
The problem with them is that they're fairly slow for a melee unit and their invuln is only against shooting attacks. Given the right circumstances I'm sure they're extremely deadly. But it won't work the majority of the time, I'd bet.
Can't imagine they'd fare as well as Domitar do walking straight into a tank line, but I've yet to attempt that with the Kastellans.
@Suzuteo
People use Paladins? I mean, I just see them as overpriced Terminators
I got 4 GK Termies off a colleague; the only GK's I've got, so I field them as 3 Paladins with an Ancient.
They seem pretty decent; I've no qualms with them thus far.
Going to resurrect an old topic that never really was fully settled.
What is the best lone Knight to run with AdMech? Should a lone Knight be run at all?
My favorite two are in the low-500 cost range. I feel that going any lower makes them less versatile.
512:
Knight Crusader - Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Thermal Cannon, Heavy Stubber
516:
Knight Warden - Thunderstrike Gauntlet, Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Heavy Stubber, Stormspear Rocket Pod
As you can see, they're both built with the assumption that I am going to be entering CC.
For the Crusader, Avenger and Flamer handles hordes and the TC can handles tanks at close range and TEQ/Primaris in general. Feet are a very versatile 12x S8 AP-2 D3 damage weapon.
For the Warden, Avenger and Flamer handles hordes per usual, and I swap out the very limited use Reaper for the Gauntlet, which is wayyy better against vehicles and also provides a source of relatively reliable mortal wounds. Stormspear is essentially 3x Krak Missiles for 15 points each, which complements the Gauntlet really well.
Colonel Cross wrote: The problem with them is that they're fairly slow for a melee unit and their invuln is only against shooting attacks. Given the right circumstances I'm sure they're extremely deadly. But it won't work the majority of the time, I'd bet.
?
They have an 8" move, and are usually a 1+/4++ first turn against shooting, so I don't think they have a problem making it in. I just wish the fist/flamer version cost a bit less, and they have no access to rerolls except as a canticle. They are a "close, but no cigar" unit for me. That said, I only have two built in that configuration, so they miiiight work slightly better at 3/4 squad, but that's an almost prohibitive amount of points.
@suzuteo ...
I think crusader is still the way to go, tho I don't *hate* the warden. That said, what does the rest of the list look like, because do you really need the slots that you have to take the Dominus?
Jaynen wrote: The reason I would think it might be 3 attacks and only 1 with the hive would be because under the fight/weapons rule it says a unit gets the number of attacks it gets on its stat sheet and can choose a weapon per attack.
The hive itself is listed under "weapons" not under special rules
Similar to some of the other weapons like missiles which say you can only use this weapon once per turn
I've got a Scions Unit I am building now to try along with my AdMech.
I played my first little game yesterday at around 730 points and ended up winning.
All my small stuff ended up getting obliterated as soon as it was in range of my space marine opponent and he got hosed as soon as he got within range of my 2 kastellans in protector while my neutron onager was hanging back and shooting at his captain etc.
My biggest issues I felt were.
* Very immobile
* I didn't have any units that could really advance to objectives and then effectively hold them very long
The Kastellans with their 18 shots each killed about 4 marines per turn devastating his two tactical squads of 5
Sisters of Battle is interesting. Dominion squad gets to move after everyone else sets up turn 1. So that's a 6" move. Use Celestine's act of faith they could move again or their own/your armies act of faith they could move again
As I said, if we treat Hive like Chainswords, it ought to be 4 + 2D6.
Scions are really strong, and you definitely can use them in a Taurox. I actually recommend a Patrol Detachment with a Tempestor Prime, a command squad, a regular squad. All plasma guns.
Yeah. We're an artillery army. So the idea is to have a static component that beats the tar out of everything and a mobile component that can go around grabbing objectives and screen.
Don't expect the Kastelan thing to work against people who know what it does. Their role really is to force the opponent into making bad trades.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Aaranis, speaking of add-on detachments - any thoughts on GKs?
Had a bit of fun involving Infiltrators and Paladins tonight:
Take an Ancient with a banner, Warlord with +1 Ld aura, and stick the enemy with the -1 Ld Neurostatic aura.
Ld 11 effectively for the Paladin Commander.
Managed to pull off 8 mortal wounds in 1 shot with Purge Soul on a Hellbrute, and that was without the Infiltrators giving it the old Neurostatic!
Just a shame we don't currently have the Holy Requisitioner shenanigans, because that'd tie in nicely with the Teleportariums. Nice enough getting the Infiltrators stuck right in with the GKs though.
People use Paladins? I mean, I just see them as overpriced Terminators.
Paladins are awesome. They're requiring twice the amount of Plasma to kill, you don't want to point Lascannons at them very much because they're cheapish, and nobody is taking Melta Guns at the particular moment.
gally912 wrote:
I think crusader is still the way to go, tho I don't *hate* the warden. That said, what does the rest of the list look like, because do you really need the slots that you have to take the Dominus?
It shouldn't matter too much. After all, the Knight is basically taking these parts and putting them on an independent super-heavy platform.
What is it about the Warden that you don't like? How would you improve it?
But to answer your question, yes, I have totally maxed out my Spearhead's heavy support slots, and I'm not interested in filling my troop or elite slots.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Paladins are awesome. They're requiring twice the amount of Plasma to kill, you don't want to point Lascannons at them very much because they're cheapish, and nobody is taking Melta Guns at the particular moment.
I see your point. The meta definitely does have a blind spot for medium toughness units. Then again, you're talking to a guy who runs Thermal Cannon Crusader. Haha.
Colonel Cross wrote: The problem with them is that they're fairly slow for a melee unit and their invuln is only against shooting attacks. Given the right circumstances I'm sure they're extremely deadly. But it won't work the majority of the time, I'd bet.
?
They have an 8" move, and are usually a 1+/4++ first turn against shooting, so I don't think they have a problem making it in. I just wish the fist/flamer version cost a bit less, and they have no access to rerolls except as a canticle. They are a "close, but no cigar" unit for me. That said, I only have two built in that configuration, so they miiiight work slightly better at 3/4 squad, but that's an almost prohibitive amount of points.
If the codex drops and the close combat variant of Kastellans doesn't decrease I'll be very surprised. They look so cool I want them to be good, haha.
I've been using Kataphron Breachers my past few matches, giving Torsion cannons a go, and I've got to say; I'm preferring these guys much more over the Destroyers.
That'll be partly down to me not having any Electropriests as gunline defence like the rest of you, but these Breachers are certainly handling themselves alright if they get overrun.
Ends up being a sandbagging fest with Arc Claws, but investing in the Hydraulics, despite the crummy hitting, frees them up after a few turns, or at least until I get something else in the ease the situation.
Having 2 units of 3, and taking it in turns to go into CC with them: 1 unit goes in, whilst the other shoots other things.
First unit falls back, second shoots and then charges.
Rinse and repeat until something dies or runs off.
No denying that Destroyers put out a more reliable damage output, and a higher one at that, but there's really something to be said for Torsion cannons 1-shotting a Redemptor. Quite a lot of fun when that happens.
Also gave Ruststalkers a proper go tonight, tasked with taking out some Tyranid Warriors and a Tyrant: Underwhelming, but they do actually get through things. Wishing that Transonics got better over time like they did in 7th, but they still do work.
They don't fit the thematic very well though; I see them as a bunch of spindly gits that are going to run really fast at you, and shred you to pieces pretty quickly before moving on.
Feels like they now just amble on up to a target, and proceed to ram screwdrivers into it until it collapses.
I am leaning crusader. But I was thinking of the Avenger and the RFBC 2D6STR 8 shots seems a lot better than D3 (and D6 vs large number of models units) of STR 9 fire. Most things at STR 8 AP-2 will be taking invuln saves anyway?
And I think the RFBC also adds another heavy stubber, so that gives you 2 of those, the flamer, the Avenger Gatling, the Rapid Fire Battle Canon and Titanic feet for 540pts
My scions plan is currently the 1 unit with tempestor plasma pistol, and 2 plasma weapons on the scions.
Tempestor prime with command rod
Tempestus command squad with 4 plasma
Has anyone tried heavy weapons squads (they have 3 heavy weapons teams each right?) so you pick up 3 mortars which are 5 pts each and it says 4 pts per model 3 models per unit so 12+15 = 27pts for 46" range heavy d6x3 str 4 shots that don't need LOS
I'm not a big fan of the RFBC. It's 28 more points without much to show for it. After all, if my Crusader is not within melee range, I don't think I'm using it to the fullest. That being said, the way I see it, the TC is higher risk, but higher reward as well. With command rerolls, this can actually work out really nicely. (And honestly, I don't have too much stuff to reroll except for my Knight, since the rest of my stuff is hunkered down around Cawl.)
I am leaning crusader. But I was thinking of the Avenger and the RFBC 2D6STR 8 shots seems a lot better than D3 (and D6 vs large number of models units) of STR 9 fire. Most things at STR 8 AP-2 will be taking invuln saves anyway?
And I think the RFBC also adds another heavy stubber, so that gives you 2 of those, the flamer, the Avenger Gatling, the Rapid Fire Battle Canon and Titanic feet for 540pts
My scions plan is currently the 1 unit with tempestor plasma pistol, and 2 plasma weapons on the scions.
Tempestor prime with command rod
Tempestus command squad with 4 plasma
Has anyone tried heavy weapons squads (they have 3 heavy weapons teams each right?) so you pick up 3 mortars which are 5 pts each and it says 4 pts per model 3 models per unit so 12+15 = 27pts for 46" range heavy d6x3 str 4 shots that don't need LOS
Thats similar to the output of a dakastellan?
The mortars are not going to do NEARLY as much damage as the dakastellans. S6 AP -2 no cover bonus vs S4 AP0. That being said, if you're concerned about being drowned by hordes, then yes, they could help you out. They can still fire their lasguns too, everything can fire all pistol or non pistol weapons this edition.
I just built a list, looking forward to finishing up the Ad Mech side to try it out. The Guard struggle so much with high T and multi wound so I've basically taken a Vanguard Detachment with Cawl, 2x Dakkastellans, 2 Neutronagers, and 1x Icarus Onager. Then I can drown my opponent in bodies AND a few vehicles that are actually worth their points. My list nets me 3xBN Detachments and the Ad Mech Vanguard so I'll have 13 CPs to chuck!
Suzuteo wrote: I'm not a big fan of the RFBC. It's 28 more points without much to show for it. After all, if my Crusader is not within melee range, I don't think I'm using it to the fullest. That being said, the way I see it, the TC is higher risk, but higher reward as well. With command rerolls, this can actually work out really nicely. (And honestly, I don't have too much stuff to reroll except for my Knight, since the rest of my stuff is hunkered down around Cawl.)
I am leaning crusader. But I was thinking of the Avenger and the RFBC 2D6STR 8 shots seems a lot better than D3 (and D6 vs large number of models units) of STR 9 fire. Most things at STR 8 AP-2 will be taking invuln saves anyway?
And I think the RFBC also adds another heavy stubber, so that gives you 2 of those, the flamer, the Avenger Gatling, the Rapid Fire Battle Canon and Titanic feet for 540pts
My scions plan is currently the 1 unit with tempestor plasma pistol, and 2 plasma weapons on the scions.
Tempestor prime with command rod
Tempestus command squad with 4 plasma
Has anyone tried heavy weapons squads (they have 3 heavy weapons teams each right?) so you pick up 3 mortars which are 5 pts each and it says 4 pts per model 3 models per unit so 12+15 = 27pts for 46" range heavy d6x3 str 4 shots that don't need LOS
Thats similar to the output of a dakastellan?
The mortars are not going to do NEARLY as much damage as the dakastellans. S6 AP -2 no cover bonus vs S4 AP0. That being said, if you're concerned about being drowned by hordes, then yes, they could help you out. They can still fire their lasguns too, everything can fire all pistol or non pistol weapons this edition.
I just built a list, looking forward to finishing up the Ad Mech side to try it out. The Guard struggle so much with high T and multi wound so I've basically taken a Vanguard Detachment with Cawl, 2x Dakkastellans, 2 Neutronagers, and 1x Icarus Onager. Then I can drown my opponent in bodies AND a few vehicles that are actually worth their points. My list nets me 3xBN Detachments and the Ad Mech Vanguard so I'll have 13 CPs to chuck!
Ok that is great information thank you. I was just perusing some of the other IG options since I would be making a Scions detachment anyway. I was comparing the Basilisk to the Mortars but you make some good points.
I think even running a single conscript blob with the commissar who comes in my tempestus starter box would probably provide a lot of board control because of how damn many of them there are and you can only lose one per turn for morale
gally912 wrote:
I think crusader is still the way to go, tho I don't *hate* the warden. That said, what does the rest of the list look like, because do you really need the slots that you have to take the Dominus?
It shouldn't matter too much. After all, the Knight is basically taking these parts and putting them on an independent super-heavy platform.
What is it about the Warden that you don't like? How would you improve it?
But to answer your question, yes, I have totally maxed out my Spearhead's heavy support slots, and I'm not interested in filling my troop or elite slots.
Very fair. The swap out units only added one HS slot so I thought you might be able to get away with it.
That said... The Warden layout you gave is interesting. It's a psuedo naked-Crusader, trading the thermal cannon For a gauntlet/and 3 krak missiles. A very comparable and even favorable trade! I also agree in regards to the RFBC. Most of the time, its about 4 s8 hits that get saved way to often, and way too often do piddly damage. (I can't begin to count the number of times its only managed to kill 1 primates marine)
If you can't squeeze the points to put the stormspear on the crusader (my current load out), then I'd say the two options are almost identical and a matter of taste. I might prefer the S9 with 18" melta range myself. Be able to shoot backfield vehicles and charge the front lines, or even the old pop-transport-charge-insides routine. Like you say, its also a great target for the command reroll.
The Warden variant obviously performs a very similar job, but the question I'd ask is how often you feel that you would choose the fist to attack with - versus the feet? I can't see that very often myself. The targets where the fist applies a significant advantage over feet are few and far between.
All that said again, its basically a crusader that traded its d3 s9 melts for a more consistent 3 krak missiles with an upside in CC. I just am adverse to give up ranged firepower of any kind for a situational melee weapon. The thermal cannon will always have a target, almost every turn. The fist...sometimes, maybe, depending on a host of factors and probably not more than once a game (barring an all russ IG list, and such)
hope that helps a little
Edit:
Of course, that really wasn't what you were asking. I would say either of those perform favorably to your swap out units. This applies in both output, durability, and target saturation. An opponent is hard pressed being forced to choose going after knight/dakkastelems/onagers. That's a whole other unignorable threat, versus just the pair of onagers/kastelens
Very fair. The swap out units only added one HS slot so I thought you might be able to get away with it.
That said... The Warden layout you gave is interesting. It's a psuedo naked-Crusader, trading the thermal cannon For a gauntlet/and 3 krak missiles. A very comparable and even favorable trade! I also agree in regards to the RFBC. Most of the time, its about 4 s8 hits that get saved way to often, and way too often do piddly damage. (I can't begin to count the number of times its only managed to kill 1 primates marine)
If you can't squeeze the points to put the stormspear on the crusader (my current load out), then I'd say the two options are almost identical and a matter of taste. I might prefer the S9 with 18" melta range myself. Be able to shoot backfield vehicles and charge the front lines, or even the old pop-transport-charge-insides routine. Like you say, its also a great target for the command reroll.
The Warden variant obviously performs a very similar job, but the question I'd ask is how often you feel that you would choose the fist to attack with - versus the feet? I can't see that very often myself. The targets where the fist applies a significant advantage over feet are few and far between.
All that said again, its basically a crusader that traded its d3 s9 melts for a more consistent 3 krak missiles with an upside in CC. I just am adverse to give up ranged firepower of any kind for a situational melee weapon. The thermal cannon will always have a target, almost every turn. The fist...sometimes, maybe, depending on a host of factors and probably not more than once a game (barring an all russ IG list, and such)
hope that helps a little
Edit:
Of course, that really wasn't what you were asking. I would say either of those perform favorably to your swap out units. This applies in both output, durability, and target saturation. An opponent is hard pressed being forced to choose going after knight/dakkastelems/onagers. That's a whole other unignorable threat, versus just the pair of onagers/kastelens
Well, even if I did squeeze the Heavy Support slot, I would still take the tax because 2x2 Dragoons is not enough for screening. The Knight does fill that role with his great mobility and melee.
Right. The principle behind the Warden setup is essentially to trade a Thermal Cannon for 3x Krak Missiles and Gauntlet. I take the Gauntlet because Gauntlet+Feet are flat-out better than Reaper+Feet in every circumstance, and that is worth 5 points. The Feet are definitely more versatile and kill everything but tanks, and Gauntlets peel open (and then throw) tanks. You do point out one hiccup though: you have to shoot before you charge, making transport-killing a bit more awkward than with the Crusader build, which melts the transport then shoots or stomps the occupants.
)
) with Cawl.
Like maybe Q3 or Q4? Maybe the next 
