All units are objsec so if you run Vanguard doesn't really matter. Personally I would not want to spend all those points for three squads of Guardians.
I really want to start on the golden boys but it looks like everyone is calling this codex: Jetbikes. I'm fine not taking a mono army but I'd like more boys in gold. What are my other options outside of outrider or command detachment of bikes while still being semi-competitive?
Cptn_Snuggles wrote: I really want to start on the golden boys but it looks like everyone is calling this codex: Jetbikes. I'm fine not taking a mono army but I'd like more boys in gold. What are my other options outside of outrider or command detachment of bikes while still being semi-competitive?
I think the codex over all works fine, just the ejt bikes are stand outs. custodes guard area pretty solid pick, one thing to remeber is EVERYTHING is OS.
Cptn_Snuggles wrote: I really want to start on the golden boys but it looks like everyone is calling this codex: Jetbikes. I'm fine not taking a mono army but I'd like more boys in gold. What are my other options outside of outrider or command detachment of bikes while still being semi-competitive?
Jetbikes are good but they have weaknesses. I would not go solely with jetbikes. There are other really great units.
Cptn_Snuggles wrote: I really want to start on the golden boys but it looks like everyone is calling this codex: Jetbikes. I'm fine not taking a mono army but I'd like more boys in gold. What are my other options outside of outrider or command detachment of bikes while still being semi-competitive?
A battalion with a Vexilla bearer and the rest bikes is very much semi-competitive
Cptn_Snuggles wrote: I really want to start on the golden boys but it looks like everyone is calling this codex: Jetbikes. I'm fine not taking a mono army but I'd like more boys in gold. What are my other options outside of outrider or command detachment of bikes while still being semi-competitive?
Jetbikes are good but they have weaknesses. I would not go solely with jetbikes. There are other really great units.
You're the one defending the Terminators. I'm sure the weaknesses you have for jetbikes are going to be grossly exaggerated.
I played in a tournament last weekend versus another Custodes army and I had some jetbikes too. I would charge my opponent’s jetbikes so that they couldn’t spill over into other units for melee. Sure they could and did leave combat but basically they couldn’t ever charge again then my Allarus came in off the Vexilla and shredded them. A lot of armies can do the same thing like Tyranids with chaff.
I have a 1500 or tournie in the future and wondering what you guys thought of my list. I can switch out most units with any custodes models. I just thought this one was pretty brutal.
1x shield captain on bike
3x3 dawneagle custodes bikers
Vanguard detachment
1x st. Celestine
2x culexus assassin
1x praetor with -1 banner with Castilian axe
For the most part this army is very fast, and has a lot of targets in your face that won't die too easy. It also helps protect against 2 weaknesses. Mortal wounds and multi damage shooting.
KingCorpus wrote: I have a 1500 or tournie in the future and wondering what you guys thought of my list. I can switch out most units with any custodes models. I just thought this one was pretty brutal.
1x shield captain on bike
3x3 dawneagle custodes bikers
Vanguard detachment
1x st. Celestine
2x culexus assassin
1x praetor with -1 banner with Castilian axe
For the most part this army is very fast, and has a lot of targets in your face that won't die too easy. It also helps protect against 2 weaknesses. Mortal wounds and multi damage shooting.
What ya think
I think the banner carrier is honestly a waste. everyone but the assasins will move too fast to get much benifit from it, I think youd be better off snagging something else instead.
KingCorpus wrote: I have a 1500 or tournie in the future and wondering what you guys thought of my list. I can switch out most units with any custodes models. I just thought this one was pretty brutal.
1x shield captain on bike
3x3 dawneagle custodes bikers
Vanguard detachment
1x st. Celestine
2x culexus assassin
1x praetor with -1 banner with Castilian axe
For the most part this army is very fast, and has a lot of targets in your face that won't die too easy. It also helps protect against 2 weaknesses. Mortal wounds and multi damage shooting.
What ya think
I think the banner carrier is honestly a waste. everyone but the assasins will move too fast to get much benifit from it, I think youd be better off snagging something else instead.
I initially agreed with this, but then realized that everyone else except for Celestine is hard to shoot at, so it keeps the bikes from becoming a target turn 1-2 until you can charge them in. You'll probably want to use a CP to extend the range of the vexilla though, with the additional 6" he can move the aura 6" (move)+d6" (advance)+12" aura range...enough to keep up with the jetbikes 14" move for a turn.
Sadly, I learned this as well. Keep in mind, however, that you don't always want to full move every turn. I just fought an army with it's own 12" assaulters and the first two rounds were a careful dance because neither wanted to be the one getting charged.
On another note, I took an allied detachment of AdMech. A battalion with 4 Kastellan Robots. I added an Outrider detachment of Custodes with a Caladius instead of 3rd bike squad to it and kept the Vexilla (he moved and advanced most turns).
Let me say, AdMech are a match made in heaven! Setting up Dakkabots and using Skitarii Rangers as objective grabbers was just the perfect compliment to fast and hard hitting Custodes. I strongly recommend everyone try it if they can.
Ordana wrote: I like what AdMech offers but from a competitive standpoint I just can't justify losing the ridiculous bonuses guard give you. Esp in CP recovery.
I had 7 CP and that honestly seemed enough. Between canticles and HQ's I had all the re-rolls I need. I used 3 CP to infiltrate some AdMech stuff using Stygies strat and some more to ignore Heavy penalty for moving and shooting.
Could I use more? Yeah sure, but I'm not sure more is essential. Plus I expect a change to Grand Strategist or Kurov's Aquila in March due to their prevalence.
KingCorpus wrote: I have a 1500 or tournie in the future and wondering what you guys thought of my list. I can switch out most units with any custodes models. I just thought this one was pretty brutal.
1x shield captain on bike
3x3 dawneagle custodes bikers
Vanguard detachment
1x st. Celestine
2x culexus assassin
1x praetor with -1 banner with Castilian axe
For the most part this army is very fast, and has a lot of targets in your face that won't die too easy. It also helps protect against 2 weaknesses. Mortal wounds and multi damage shooting.
What ya think
I think the banner carrier is honestly a waste. everyone but the assasins will move too fast to get much benifit from it, I think youd be better off snagging something else instead.
I initially agreed with this, but then realized that everyone else except for Celestine is hard to shoot at, so it keeps the bikes from becoming a target turn 1-2 until you can charge them in. You'll probably want to use a CP to extend the range of the vexilla though, with the additional 6" he can move the aura 6" (move)+d6" (advance)+12" aura range...enough to keep up with the jetbikes 14" move for a turn.
You might also get mileage from a Callidus at that low point level as well.
KingCorpus wrote: I have a 1500 or tournie in the future and wondering what you guys thought of my list. I can switch out most units with any custodes models. I just thought this one was pretty brutal.
1x shield captain on bike
3x3 dawneagle custodes bikers
Vanguard detachment
1x st. Celestine
2x culexus assassin
1x praetor with -1 banner with Castilian axe
For the most part this army is very fast, and has a lot of targets in your face that won't die too easy. It also helps protect against 2 weaknesses. Mortal wounds and multi damage shooting.
What ya think
I think the banner carrier is honestly a waste. everyone but the assasins will move too fast to get much benifit from it, I think youd be better off snagging something else instead.
I initially agreed with this, but then realized that everyone else except for Celestine is hard to shoot at, so it keeps the bikes from becoming a target turn 1-2 until you can charge them in. You'll probably want to use a CP to extend the range of the vexilla though, with the additional 6" he can move the aura 6" (move)+d6" (advance)+12" aura range...enough to keep up with the jetbikes 14" move for a turn.
You might also get mileage from a Callidus at that low point level as well.
I'm posting a lot but I've had my Vexilla hang out twice now with my tank and it definitely boosts its survivability and gives him something to do.
Cptn_Snuggles wrote: I really want to start on the golden boys but it looks like everyone is calling this codex: Jetbikes. I'm fine not taking a mono army but I'd like more boys in gold. What are my other options outside of outrider or command detachment of bikes while still being semi-competitive?
A full jetbike list isn't semi competitive either.
Cptn_Snuggles wrote: I really want to start on the golden boys but it looks like everyone is calling this codex: Jetbikes. I'm fine not taking a mono army but I'd like more boys in gold. What are my other options outside of outrider or command detachment of bikes while still being semi-competitive?
A full jetbike list isn't semi competitive either.
If you want to be competitive, Custodes are an addition to a list. Specifically Bike Captains, as no other units offer a genuine utility that other Imperial armies don't already have.
Cptn_Snuggles wrote: I really want to start on the golden boys but it looks like everyone is calling this codex: Jetbikes. I'm fine not taking a mono army but I'd like more boys in gold. What are my other options outside of outrider or command detachment of bikes while still being semi-competitive?
A full jetbike list isn't semi competitive either.
If you want to be competitive, Custodes are an addition to a list. Specifically Bike Captains, as no other units offer a genuine utility that other Imperial armies don't already have.
He might've been thinking like I was at first that the Aquila is locked unless you have a pure detachment. I double checked the Custodes book and they do not take a pure detachment to unlock relics, however, so IG are probably the same.
Correct. Then 1CP to give the BA Captain the relic Jump Pack and one more to make him Death Company, then Slamguinius is born. He's best pals with Bike Captains.
I have been toying for a while with the idea of starting a Custodes army as my Grey Knights only bring me defeat in this edition. While making a potential Custodes list and came to a conundrum.
I was planning to take 3 shield captains on bikes in my brigade detachment, however I don't have points for it. I can however remove the single vexilia magnifica in my army for it, which was supposed to deepstrike with the Allarus, which would you pick:
-An extra Shield Captain in a Bike
-A Vexilia Magnifica to buff a Allarus Custodians group (and possibly also a squad of Guardians if I decide to pay 3CP)
Cephalobeard wrote: I wouldn't add Custodes of any sort to a mixed detachment. Captains having obsec and +1 inv is too strong.
Primark G wrote: Yeah I suggest a detachment such as Vanguard to run your Custodes - I would keep the Vexilla too.
Wait you misunderstood, I am planning to make a mainly Custodes army (well with some AM allies in another detachment). I would never mix Custodes with other stuff in a detachment since their bonuses are really good
For your criticism, comment and ridicule here's my list for an upcoming tournament, which now includes Custodes... tweaked this so many times (and need to finish painting the Custodes!) but think this is the list...
Space Marine Captain, Jump Pack, Combi-plasma, Power Fist
Space Marine Librarian, Jump Pack (24), Boltgun, Force Axe (10) = 122 pts
Knows: Smite, Psychic Fortress, Null Zone
Space Marine Vanguard Veteran Squad: 6 Marines with Jump Packs, 3 with 2x Plasma Pistols, 1 with Plasma Pistol + Power Sword, 1 with Plasma Pistol + Storm Shield, 1 with Thunder Hammer+ Storm Shield
Culexus Assassin
Eversor Assassin
Vexilla is there to give the -1 to hit bubble in case I get 2nd turn... then he is going to try and sprint around advancing every turn to try and keep at least one of the Jetbikes within 6" until he gets killed or close enough to fight someone.
I might pay a CP to deep strike a Shield Captain, mainly to make my opponent worry about deployment.
Plasma vets and Leman Russes give some S8 shooting. I will have to screen them well.
Space Marine libby is a gamble - I know there will be loads of Hive Tyrants and Custodes and Primarchs and stuff... so he's there to hided behind the space marines then fly up close and cast Null Zone. I just wish it went off on a 7 instead of an 8. I expect many CPs will be spent trying to make this cast!
Feel like it's got a fair mix of anti-horde, mobility and anti-tank.
Remove the tanks, give the assassins to the AM detachment and make that your soup detachment. Then select a SM list, get access to their tactics and consider adding a thunderfire cannon instead of the tank. Gets you better stratagems and generic rules.
Tallarn bonus is better than anything SM get by a million miles. The SM stratagems are uniformly awful as well, whereas the AM ones are great!
To expand on this... which SM rules would I benefit from? All the marines have FLY so can already fall back and shoot. They are next to a captain so already get rerolls. 6+ FNP is crap for 400 pts of models.
I guess they could be Raven Guard and infiltrate, but it would cost 3CP to infiltrate them all.
Respectfully disagree, especially with Talarn. You're either ambushing two tanks that are going to die, or you're slightly increasing the accuracy of tanks that are going to be charged turn 1-2 anyway, negating the usefulness of the trait.
You benefit more from your mobile, flexible SM units, and a thunderfire cannon would allow you to reduce the movement of mobile targets coming towards you.
You benefit very little from two singular tanks, compared to what you could have otherwise. You cannot screen them with 3x 10 Infantry squads. They're going to die.
Automatically Appended Next Post: At the very least I would consider scouts over infantry squads. They're more expensive, but allow you to prevent deep striking units in a much larger area.
You don't need to accept my advise, in the slightest, but that would give you a larger benefit than the infantry squads.
I don't own a thunderfire cannon - so there's that.
Very unlikely to ambush the tanks. I've still never actually used that stratagem. Tallarn is to allow the infantry to move fast and the tanks to move and still shoot at full BS. Cadia would probably be better but all my dudes look like Tallarn now.
You definitely can screen with infantry squads. You're right though - they are going to die. That's pretty much what they are there for - to buy the Lemans a couple of turns of shooting.
My hope is that people are more worried about the mighty golden warriors speeding at them in Jetbikes, and leave the Lemans alone.
Not having the models is fine, you didn't add "only using these models" as a stipulation to your request. I'm simply telling you what is, or isn't, a good idea or optimal idea for you to run.
If you don't want the criticism or the ideas being brought up, bluntly, don't ask for it.
The infantry squads are there to screen, and I attempted to use 3x 10 for this very reason, but they're too fragile and don't cover enough forward ground to do the job properly. Scouts are better for a similar investment.
Infantry are 4 PPM, T3, 5+.
Scouts are 11 PPM, T4, 4+.
Scouts with Cloaks are 14 PPM, T4, 4+ (but 2+ in cover).
For all calculations, I'll assume cover, since you can probably finagle it for them. PPH stands for Points Per Hit.
Lasguns-S3, AP0 Infantry take 1/4 wounds per hit, or 1 PPH.
Scouts take 1/9 wounds per hit, or 1.22 PPH.
Scouts with Cloaks take 1/18 wounds per hit, or .78 PPH.
Bolters-S4, AP0 Infantry take 1/3 wounds per hit, or 1.33 PPH.
Scouts take 1/6 wounds per hit, or 1.83 PPH.
Scouts with Cloaks take 1/12 wounds per hit, or 1.17 PPH.
Heavy Bolters-S5, AP0 Infantry take 5/9 wounds per hit, or 2.22 PPH.
Scouts take 1/3 wounds per hit, or 3.67 PPH.
Scouts with Cloaks take 2/9 wounds per hit, or 3.11 PPH.
Plasma-S7/8, AP-3 Infantry take 5/6 wounds per hit, or 3.33 PPH.
Scouts take 25/36 wounds per hit, or 7.64 PPH.
Scouts with Cloaks take 5/9 wounds per hit, or 7.78 PPH.
Do note that you do NOT overcharge against Infantry, making it slightly safer to shoot them. Given the abundance of rerolls, though, not a huge deal.
Scouts scout, my friend. They cover more ground by preventing less deep striking beyond your deployment zone. I'm not implying they're not, stock, equally fragile, I'm just stating they screen better by nature of their ability to actually scout.
Cephalobeard wrote: Scouts scout, my friend. They cover more ground by preventing less deep striking beyond your deployment zone. I'm not implying they're not, stock, equally fragile, I'm just stating they screen better by nature of their ability to actually scout.
So do Scout Sentinels. In addition, Custodes enjoy being in close combat-let the enemy draw near.
Another report from last weekend. I played a 1150 + 1150 versus 3000 points of attacker using the planetstrike mission six rules from chapter approved. I ran 3 biker captains, Celestine, and some skitarii / mortar team chaff. First turn all the chaff was dead. I kept 1 biker captain off the table with deepstrike. We end up winning due to biker captains and celestine being tough and mobile and killing 1 easy target unit a turn a piece. Biker captains are great in weird, mission heavy games where mobility and flexibility are rewarded over pure damage output. We tabled the 3000 points of chaos on the bottom of turn 5 with only 1 black templar jump captain, 1 biker captain, and celestine left. Next time I will have a Culexus. I think Culexus is just mandatory in a biker captain list. You need assassin support for Custodes to work, and it is plenty fluffy if anybody gives you grief about soup.
EDIT: mark me down as one for team soup. I love playing just 3 custodes models with the rest of my army. They add a durable and flexible element to an army of static models. Most of the imperial army list are units that stand there and shoot. They park, you throw dice. The best ones (phosphorbots) literally cannot move once you turn them into shoot mode. I am all about throwing 3 biker captains in your imperial army.
I like the AM/Custodes/SM list. SM do have good strategems but I don't know if they are worth it for those units. I would take two Culexus and drop the Eversor.
I agree the combination of the three leads to great things, I'm just of the opinion after hammering away at it for a few weeks that the AM Battalion is less useful than a SM one, especially when you can obtain all you need from them by simply taking a Vanguard with your assassins (which most agree at this point compliment the custodes perfectly) and making a company commander your warlord.
Cephalobeard wrote: I agree the combination of the three leads to great things, I'm just of the opinion after hammering away at it for a few weeks that the AM Battalion is less useful than a SM one, especially when you can obtain all you need from them by simply taking a Vanguard with your assassins (which most agree at this point compliment the custodes perfectly) and making a company commander your warlord.
Yes. In competitive, space marine scouts are better screens than guardsmen because distance matters more than bodies. Every deepstrike melee threat erases a screen unit a turn no matter what, so 5 scouts further up the board is better than~13 guardsmen within your lines.
Yup, the benefit of the scouts isn't increased durability, it's all about the deep strike denial. Each Scout squad prevents DS in an area roughly 18" deep and 24" wide. Three squads like that prevents almost all DS on the first turn outside the enemy deployment zone. That's a huge plus. Sure, the opponent can kill the scouts and then DS on turn two, but even then you've had a turn to deepen your formation and push you other bubble wrap out. It's still great, tactically speaking.
Cephalobeard wrote: Not having the models is fine, you didn't add "only using these models" as a stipulation to your request. I'm simply telling you what is, or isn't, a good idea or optimal idea for you to run.
If you don't want the criticism or the ideas being brought up, bluntly, don't ask for it.
Hi. Sorry wasn't trying to be defensive... and your opinions are welcomed. I just don't agree with the idea of taking more marines. But that's cool.
Scouts would probably be a good idea. I'd like to get some Scout Sentinels to add to my army - perhaps they will be the next purchase.
My feeling on the Tallarn Infantry Squads is that you can use them for two types of screening...
Because they move 6"+d6" and can still shoot, they are pretty good at rushing forwards to make a screen against things like stealers and that. Footslogging assault. They will die super fast but can push quite far out.
The more common type of screening these days is anti-Fly screen, where you need to clog up the area around what you're protecting so they can't put their big flyer base down. That's harder to do with smaller squads.
So I think AM infantry (at 150 pts for 30) are pretty good. The order you can give that allows them to fall back and shoot helps a bit too.
I would ask, what exactly would a Custodes player want to achieve by incorporating a deepstrike screen?
Sure you could take 15 scouts and deny most of the board to the enemy deepstrike bomb for a turn, but then turn 2 when the scouts are dead it comes in no worries and does what it pleases.
With no experience to qualify it... I would imagine Guardsmen 'meat armour' working better. With Custodes you kind've want the enemies big flashy bomb units close to you, but not so close that they can charge you. So the guardsmen work like a bubble surrounding your Goldenboys, absorbing the MW, objectives and DS charges.
Guardsmen can even run for 12+2D6 inches with the right orders and keep up with your jetbikes.
Cephalobeard wrote: Not having the models is fine, you didn't add "only using these models" as a stipulation to your request. I'm simply telling you what is, or isn't, a good idea or optimal idea for you to run.
If you don't want the criticism or the ideas being brought up, bluntly, don't ask for it.
Hi. Sorry wasn't trying to be defensive... and your opinions are welcomed. I just don't agree with the idea of taking more marines. But that's cool.
Totally fine and I respect that response. I equally apologize if my responses appeared to come off rude.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spartacus wrote: I would ask, what exactly would a Custodes player want to achieve by incorporating a deepstrike screen?
Sure you could take 15 scouts and deny most of the board to the enemy deepstrike bomb for a turn, but then turn 2 when the scouts are dead it comes in no worries and does what it pleases.
With no experience to qualify it... I would imagine Guardsmen 'meat armour' working better. With Custodes you kind've want the enemies big flashy bomb units close to you, but not so close that they can charge you. So the guardsmen work like a bubble surrounding your Goldenboys, absorbing the MW, objectives and DS charges.
Guardsmen can even run for 12+2D6 inches with the right orders and keep up with your jetbikes.
8th is a highly, highly aggressive meta. Custodes, specifically when following the "Jam Captains" strat, need to keep them alive as long as possible to maximize their usefulness. Custodes want to be DOING the charging, not being charged. If you can ensure you're getting off the charge you're maintaining the dominant position, and can stooping dive a key unit on the reaction the following turn.
Scouts, by nature, allow for you to control more board position than your opponent, which depending on the meta you're playing in may very well allow you to hold more objectives, score more points, etc than your opponent. It's personal preference.
Guardsmen are good, especially with a mortar, they're simply a more defensive build than scouts, which are implying you're going to be taking a more direct, brute force application.
Note that if you rely on units like Scout Sentinals to push back deepstrikers I can deploy a unit of SM scouts 9" away from your DZ and deny this, opening the way for some form of DS shenanigan (assuming I get first turn)
That's what makes SM Scouts so good. They are one of the few (only?) units that infiltrate during the deployment step instead of 'before the first turn'.
I typically use one scout squad as bait. To me you don't want to totally shut down an opponent's deep strike locations since Custodes excel the most in melee... you want to cunningly offer them locations to drop that are actually best for you to then counter assault.
Spartacus wrote: I would ask, what exactly would a Custodes player want to achieve by incorporating a deepstrike screen?
Sure you could take 15 scouts and deny most of the board to the enemy deepstrike bomb for a turn, but then turn 2 when the scouts are dead it comes in no worries and does what it pleases.
With no experience to qualify it... I would imagine Guardsmen 'meat armour' working better. With Custodes you kind've want the enemies big flashy bomb units close to you, but not so close that they can charge you. So the guardsmen work like a bubble surrounding your Goldenboys, absorbing the MW, objectives and DS charges.
Guardsmen can even run for 12+2D6 inches with the right orders and keep up with your jetbikes.
3d6 charges from bloodletters, obliterator bombs, 3d6 slamguinius charges, berserker deepstrikes/infiltrates, tau commander suit bombs, there are lots of things that if they can deepstrike in range of your custodes will kill them no matter what. Only scouts space that deepstrike out beyond 18" and deny the shooting ones a turn to hit your bikers. And scouts also make it so the melee ones can't possible be in range even with warptime.
The new thing people are doing now is running 1 9man scout squad since it can deny a full 24" on your first drop. The board control is better than survivability.
Ordana wrote: Note that if you rely on units like Scout Sentinals to push back deepstrikers I can deploy a unit of SM scouts 9" away from your DZ and deny this, opening the way for some form of DS shenanigan (assuming I get first turn)
That's what makes SM Scouts so good. They are one of the few (only?) units that infiltrate during the deployment step instead of 'before the first turn'.
Nurglings too. Surprises me that you don't see more of them.
Odd how little this discussion has to do with Custodes, and how much it has to do with stuff to go with them.
In no way am I going to deviate from that.
Silentz, I had a look at your list and the first thing I'd drop is the Vexilla. There's literally no point whatsoever in giving your opponent a penalty to shoot at bike captains that he isn't allowed to shoot anyway, because they are characters. Note that its effect only works on Custodes.
I think ratlings are a potentially useful alternative to scouts. They aren't as good, but they are cheaper (slightly) and they have guns that might sometimes accomplish something.
As an elite choice, ratlings fit quite nicely in a vanguard detachment. This might mean that you can build a soup detachment containing something like Celestine, plus assorted units of ratlings and assassins.
I have this theory that ratlings are more useful than scouts when screens aren't needed. They can be sat in cover by an objective in your deployment zone and will occasionally kill something - unlike the scouts.
Here's my vague idea of what a list with ratlings in might look like. I've gone for my preferred approach of having as many bodies on the board as possible - though of course with a Custodes army that still isn't all that many. I'd rather that the vexilla guy had an axe but I can't seem to spare the point required, and actually I've got 15 guard models plus the FW event captain, so this fits my models perfectly.
Custodes Battalion.
Shield Captain with Axe 124
Shield Captain on (relic) bike 160
5 Guards with spears 260
5 Guards with spears 260
4 Guards with spears 208
Vexillus Magnifica with Spear 112
5 Bikes 450
Soup Vanguard
Celestine with two friends 250
Culexus 85
5 Ratlings 45
5 Ratlings 45
Yeah it’s totally legitimate. I just found it amusing to see almost a full page in the Custodes tactics discussing the merits of scouts, infantry squads and slamguinius - rather than custodes themselves.
Mandragola wrote: Odd how little this discussion has to do with Custodes, and how much it has to do with stuff to go with them.
In no way am I going to deviate from that.
It's because Bikes are such a clear standout that unless you want to make a Battalion for CP there isn't much to discuss about the Codex internally. Take Bikes. Take Guardians if you want CP. The Magnifica is a head and shoulders above any other vexilla outside soup.
Mandragola wrote: Odd how little this discussion has to do with Custodes, and how much it has to do with stuff to go with them.
In no way am I going to deviate from that.
It's because Bikes are such a clear standout that unless you want to make a Battalion for CP there isn't much to discuss about the Codex internally. Take Bikes. Take Guardians if you want CP. The Magnifica is a head and shoulders above any other vexilla outside soup.
I half agree that there's not a lot to discuss in terms of what actual stuff to take. Bikes are currently the clear winners there - though it will be very interesting to see if any points get changed in the March FAQs.
On the other hand, picking your army is only one side of things. There's also the tactics you use after you put them on the table, and I don't think that's been figured out completely yet.
Bikes are currently the clear winners there - though it will be very interesting to see if any points get changed in the March FAQs.
I know there has been a lot of discussion based on some rumors, but is there any precedent for points changes at all this coming march update?
I've not seen anything official to suggest it will be anything other than a main FAQ release. Errata can and most certainly will change rules for some units/armies, but for all these people discussing sweeping changes to points to rebalance armies, I expect their hopes to be severely let down (whereupon the moaning will recommence with furious intensity).
Or have I missed something?
Based on their previous patterns I also expect no changes whatsoever to Custodes or Tsons, they seem to be hesitant to include the most recently released publications in their rule balancing aside from the 2-week FAQ thing.
Bikes are currently the clear winners there - though it will be very interesting to see if any points get changed in the March FAQs.
I know there has been a lot of discussion based on some rumors, but is there any precedent for points changes at all this coming march update?
I've not seen anything official to suggest it will be anything other than a main FAQ release. Errata can and most certainly will change rules for some units/armies, but for all these people discussing sweeping changes to points to rebalance armies, I expect their hopes to be severely let down (whereupon the moaning will recommence with furious intensity).
Or have I missed something?
Based on their previous patterns I also expect no changes whatsoever to Custodes or Tsons, they seem to be hesitant to include the most recently released publications in their rule balancing aside from the 2-week FAQ thing.
The March FAQ itself is unprecedented so no, there's no precedent for anything. Just have to wait and see.
Point increases of any kind for Custodes is entirely unlikely.
They need a net decrease. However, this will likely be reserved for Chapter approved when they can charge you $$$ for point changes, instead of a large FAQ.
Bikes are currently the clear winners there - though it will be very interesting to see if any points get changed in the March FAQs.
I know there has been a lot of discussion based on some rumors, but is there any precedent for points changes at all this coming march update?
I've not seen anything official to suggest it will be anything other than a main FAQ release. Errata can and most certainly will change rules for some units/armies, but for all these people discussing sweeping changes to points to rebalance armies, I expect their hopes to be severely let down (whereupon the moaning will recommence with furious intensity).
Or have I missed something?
Based on their previous patterns I also expect no changes whatsoever to Custodes or Tsons, they seem to be hesitant to include the most recently released publications in their rule balancing aside from the 2-week FAQ thing.
The March FAQ itself is unprecedented so no, there's no precedent for anything. Just have to wait and see.
In it, (in point 2) they say they’ll do a big faq update twice a year, and that this might change the rules for under or over-powered units, as well as fixing issues that need to be errata’d. Note that it doesn’t explicitly limit these changes in rules to points costs; in theory anything is up for grabs.
Personally I hope dark reapers get some attention from the nerf bat, and maybe something is done to limit spam in general.
i doubt there will be a point change to any units in the codex. I do hope that when FW gets around to releasing officials rules for Custodes units the points are not as high as what we saw when the released the experimental rules.
Silentz, I had a look at your list and the first thing I'd drop is the Vexilla. There's literally no point whatsoever in giving your opponent a penalty to shoot at bike captains that he isn't allowed to shoot anyway, because they are characters. Note that its effect only works on Custodes.
Thanks for the feedback. That's a solid point - I could start them just behind a line of infantry to deny any shooting.
I can still see some advantages to the Vexilla Praetor
- Will allow me to deploy jetbikes outside the infantry screen, so the screen shape can stay focused on protecting the Leman Russes which fare MUCH worse in combat. Lemans will be on the back line, whereas bikes will want to be on the line.
- With reasonable advance rolls and the 6" aura it's not impossible for the praetor to keep pace with one or more of the jetbikes for a couple of turns.
- Pretty good in combat in his own right. Not amazing, but a threat. Also can get out and hold an objective.
- Opponents might (hopefully) shoot him first, diverting fire from the things that are more valuable.
I know no plan survives contact with the enemy but in my head I have the fantasy of T1 advancing the Praetor onto a midfield objective then next turn using the Plant The Vexilla stratagem to give a 24" bubble that the jetbikes can play in.
The question (which others can't really answer) is what from my collection could I take for the 122 points I would get back.
I don't unfortunately own any scouts of any kind (o_O) so... An intercessor squad? Bit boring. 2 primaris psykers? An eversor and one primaris psyker?
Maybe that last one. I have been a bit disappointed with the Eversor but another deep strike threat is nice. Plus Nightshroud -1 to hit on my Tank Commander might work.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cephalobeard wrote: I, however, really like the Calidus. It's a good disruptive unit, and works very well in the current meta.
Agree with this. Needs a bit of luck but an army that relies on CP to get their full effect like AdMech or Chaos can be left struggling, or delay their attack til turn 2.
I like the mind games of the Callidus' short range deepstrike. I am torn though on whether to remind my opponent they can deepstrike d6"+3" to make them castle up more and get more board control... or not tell them and try to find a gap.
The fact they do mortal wounds, have AP-3 and ignore invuln saves makes them super good against T4 or less HQs, or those buff characters that the other army rely on a bit... maybe a "warp time" wielding sorceror lord or something.
Mandragola wrote: Odd how little this discussion has to do with Custodes, and how much it has to do with stuff to go with them.
In no way am I going to deviate from that.
Silentz, I had a look at your list and the first thing I'd drop is the Vexilla. There's literally no point whatsoever in giving your opponent a penalty to shoot at bike captains that he isn't allowed to shoot anyway, because they are characters. Note that its effect only works on Custodes.
I think ratlings are a potentially useful alternative to scouts. They aren't as good, but they are cheaper (slightly) and they have guns that might sometimes accomplish something.
As an elite choice, ratlings fit quite nicely in a vanguard detachment. This might mean that you can build a soup detachment containing something like Celestine, plus assorted units of ratlings and assassins.
I have this theory that ratlings are more useful than scouts when screens aren't needed. They can be sat in cover by an objective in your deployment zone and will occasionally kill something - unlike the scouts.
Here's my vague idea of what a list with ratlings in might look like. I've gone for my preferred approach of having as many bodies on the board as possible - though of course with a Custodes army that still isn't all that many. I'd rather that the vexilla guy had an axe but I can't seem to spare the point required, and actually I've got 15 guard models plus the FW event captain, so this fits my models perfectly.
Custodes Battalion.
Shield Captain with Axe 124
Shield Captain on (relic) bike 160
5 Guards with spears 260
5 Guards with spears 260
4 Guards with spears 208
Vexillus Magnifica with Spear 112
5 Bikes 450
Soup Vanguard
Celestine with two friends 250
Culexus 85
5 Ratlings 45
5 Ratlings 45
Do not take the Ratlings. Especially not at the cost of scouts. They deploy after both armies have deployed. Which means if your enemy is running scouts/nurglings, you get to place your Ratlings deep in your own deployment zone. If for some reason your opponent is not taking any of the units that go before them, they're okay. But losing the deployment denial war to two of biggest meta factions means they're a waste of points.
Mandragola wrote: Odd how little this discussion has to do with Custodes, and how much it has to do with stuff to go with them.
In no way am I going to deviate from that.
Silentz, I had a look at your list and the first thing I'd drop is the Vexilla. There's literally no point whatsoever in giving your opponent a penalty to shoot at bike captains that he isn't allowed to shoot anyway, because they are characters. Note that its effect only works on Custodes.
I think ratlings are a potentially useful alternative to scouts. They aren't as good, but they are cheaper (slightly) and they have guns that might sometimes accomplish something.
As an elite choice, ratlings fit quite nicely in a vanguard detachment. This might mean that you can build a soup detachment containing something like Celestine, plus assorted units of ratlings and assassins.
I have this theory that ratlings are more useful than scouts when screens aren't needed. They can be sat in cover by an objective in your deployment zone and will occasionally kill something - unlike the scouts.
Here's my vague idea of what a list with ratlings in might look like. I've gone for my preferred approach of having as many bodies on the board as possible - though of course with a Custodes army that still isn't all that many. I'd rather that the vexilla guy had an axe but I can't seem to spare the point required, and actually I've got 15 guard models plus the FW event captain, so this fits my models perfectly.
Custodes Battalion.
Shield Captain with Axe 124
Shield Captain on (relic) bike 160
5 Guards with spears 260
5 Guards with spears 260
4 Guards with spears 208
Vexillus Magnifica with Spear 112
5 Bikes 450
Soup Vanguard
Celestine with two friends 250
Culexus 85
5 Ratlings 45
5 Ratlings 45
Do not take the Ratlings. Especially not at the cost of scouts. They deploy after both armies have deployed. Which means if your enemy is running scouts/nurglings, you get to place your Ratlings deep in your own deployment zone. If for some reason your opponent is not taking any of the units that go before them, they're okay. But losing the deployment denial war to two of biggest meta factions means they're a waste of points.
I think it completely depends on the tournament and its rules. Some can be pretty limiting and therefore Ratlings can come into their own vs Scouts.
For example, if you can only have 1 battalion, an Imperium vanguard of ratlings is a nice, relatively cheap and provides that extra CP.
But yes, if there are no restrictions, then Scouts, and how they deploy, will always be of more value than the ratlings.
Happy to announce I've somehow obtained what must be the last remaining NOS Scout Bikes in existence in America after hunting them down for weeks, and will be building/painting up my full BA/Custodes list in the coming weeks.
Look forward to providing feedback once they're built and tested.
Scout Bikes can move the same speed as Custodes captains, giving them a mobile screening unit to travel with them, which is also capable of handling screens alongside them.
Storm Bolter, 3x Twin Bolters, 3x Shotguns, 2s Bolt Pistols from each unit of 3, as well as 7 attacks with +1 to wound on the charge for a 25ppm T5 2W 16" move is a good ally, imo.
I'm running 5 Captains, and want them to be as disruptive as possible, so the combination of them, Allarus and Scout Bikes felt strong to me.
Trying to make a Custodes+AM list on a budget for 3-4 units + a land raider I already own for the Custodes detachment.
For the HQ part I am obviously set on Shield Captains on bikes,and the elite part will have one -1 to hit Vexilia and 1 Allarus, but my main indecision right is either turning into a Battalion detachment or a Vanguard Detachment.
For the Battalion I would have 3 groups of 3 models two with shields and 1 with Spear. One of these will start on the landraider and the Vexilia would deepstrike with the Allarus
For Vanguard detachment I would instead have a group of 4x Wardens in the Landraider with the Vexillia inside with them.
The advantage of the Battalion as I see it I would gain more CP and have more bodies on the table, however I wouldn't be taking the max advantage of the Landraider as a transport and dunno how effective footslogging custodes are.
The advantage of the Vanguard is that I am taking stronger units and making max use of the Land Raider as a delivery method (plus it saves me 40 bucks) , but I get less CP points and lose the durability of the Stormshields.
Mandragola wrote: Odd how little this discussion has to do with Custodes, and how much it has to do with stuff to go with them.
In no way am I going to deviate from that.
Silentz, I had a look at your list and the first thing I'd drop is the Vexilla. There's literally no point whatsoever in giving your opponent a penalty to shoot at bike captains that he isn't allowed to shoot anyway, because they are characters. Note that its effect only works on Custodes.
I think ratlings are a potentially useful alternative to scouts. They aren't as good, but they are cheaper (slightly) and they have guns that might sometimes accomplish something.
As an elite choice, ratlings fit quite nicely in a vanguard detachment. This might mean that you can build a soup detachment containing something like Celestine, plus assorted units of ratlings and assassins.
I have this theory that ratlings are more useful than scouts when screens aren't needed. They can be sat in cover by an objective in your deployment zone and will occasionally kill something - unlike the scouts.
Here's my vague idea of what a list with ratlings in might look like. I've gone for my preferred approach of having as many bodies on the board as possible - though of course with a Custodes army that still isn't all that many. I'd rather that the vexilla guy had an axe but I can't seem to spare the point required, and actually I've got 15 guard models plus the FW event captain, so this fits my models perfectly.
Custodes Battalion.
Shield Captain with Axe 124
Shield Captain on (relic) bike 160
5 Guards with spears 260
5 Guards with spears 260
4 Guards with spears 208
Vexillus Magnifica with Spear 112
5 Bikes 450
Soup Vanguard
Celestine with two friends 250
Culexus 85
5 Ratlings 45
5 Ratlings 45
Do not take the Ratlings. Especially not at the cost of scouts. They deploy after both armies have deployed. Which means if your enemy is running scouts/nurglings, you get to place your Ratlings deep in your own deployment zone. If for some reason your opponent is not taking any of the units that go before them, they're okay. But losing the deployment denial war to two of biggest meta factions means they're a waste of points.
Yeah I’ve had another look at the ratling rules and I think you’re right. Their deployment method is really weird, and honestly not at all well-written. As in, apparently they mean you’ll always count as having finished deploying last, so your opponent gets +1 on his roll for first turn. Not at all as good a unit as they first appear.
Cephalobeard wrote: Scout Bikes can move the same speed as Custodes captains, giving them a mobile screening unit to travel with them, which is also capable of handling screens alongside them.
Storm Bolter, 3x Twin Bolters, 3x Shotguns, 2s Bolt Pistols from each unit of 3, as well as 7 attacks with +1 to wound on the charge for a 25ppm T5 2W 16" move is a good ally, imo.
I'm running 5 Captains, and want them to be as disruptive as possible, so the combination of them, Allarus and Scout Bikes felt strong to me.
Yeah, scout bikers are beef and a great meat shield for biker captains. I wonder if ravenguard would be better since the goal is screening? Blood angels for sure fight better, but tanking ranged fire on turn 1 seems like the goal here. 77 points for like 20 boltgun equivalent shots at 12" is beef.
I think in a larger Imperium contxt Custodes are best seen as "elite hunter/killers" you use them to kill characters or terminators or anything else that could otherwise soak up a lot of firepower.
BrianDavion wrote: I think in a larger Imperium contxt Custodes are best seen as "elite hunter/killers" you use them to kill characters or terminators or anything else that could otherwise soak up a lot of firepower.
In my games they function as late game board winners. After all the chaff is dead, they can run around and clear through force and then take game winning objectives. 1 shield captain can pretty consistently kill a 5 man marine squad a turn. I really want run them in a big tournament list. I keep getting stuck in smaller chapter approved games.
Hey guys, new to the army and trying to work with what I’ve bought (Trajann, 2 Guard boxes, 2 Terminator boxes, and 2 Jetbikes boxes. I need to bumpthe list down to 2000 points and I’m curious what you think of this before cuts:
seems a pretty good list. similer to what I wanna run. seems to be the simpliest way to shave points down to 2000 even would be remove one of the velexus preators.
BrianDavion wrote: seems a pretty good list. similer to what I wanna run. seems to be the simpliest way to shave points down to 2000 even would be remove one of the velexus preators.
And the one remaining should be a Magnifica. Defensor does literally nothing for a pure custodes army.
Alright, so my changes were to remove the 2nd Praetor, change the Defensor into a Magnifica (complete oversight in the first list), then I was still above 2000 Pts so I cut Trajann for a second Shield Captain in Termie Armor and a Culexus Assassin. I also update units to have axes instead of spears. Sitting around 1994 points, the Culexus gives us some play in the psychic phase. What do you think of those changes?
KampfKrote wrote: Alright, so my changes were to remove the 2nd Praetor, change the Defensor into a Magnifica (complete oversight in the first list), then I was still above 2000 Pts so I cut Trajann for a second Shield Captain in Termie Armor and a Culexus Assassin. I also update units to have axes instead of spears. Sitting around 1994 points, the Culexus gives us some play in the psychic phase. What do you think of those changes?
problem with the assasin is then you lose the detachment bonus. that's entirely up to you but you could also squeeze another custodes guard or allarus terminator into the list instead.
KampfKrote wrote: You can keep the detachment bonus if you take -1 CP for the Aux Support Detachment, right? I hope I haven’t been doing this wrong :/ lol.
Odrankt wrote: Hey guys, I got some money for my Birthday and looking to do a purchase. I am either going to buy a Razorwing or Voidraven.
I was just wondering what is the general consensus on these 2 flyers? Are they any good, do the work the same way, which is better etc.
I would also like to know the general sizes of these as well if possible. If both of them are around the same size I will probably buy 2 Razorwings and just play them as either of them. But, if the Voidraven is quite bigger then I will get one of those instead.
Thanks for the help!
Have you tried one of the Heretic Xenos threads rather then the Emperors personal bodyguard for filthy xenos questions?
Odrankt wrote: Hey guys, I got some money for my Birthday and looking to do a purchase. I am either going to buy a Razorwing or Voidraven.
I was just wondering what is the general consensus on these 2 flyers? Are they any good, do the work the same way, which is better etc.
I would also like to know the general sizes of these as well if possible. If both of them are around the same size I will probably buy 2 Razorwings and just play them as either of them. But, if the Voidraven is quite bigger then I will get one of those instead.
Thanks for the help!
Have you tried one of the Heretic Xenos threads rather then the Emperors personal bodyguard for filthy xenos questions?
Hit the wrong threat bud, they were next to each other. I also fixed that in my previous post.
Back from a hiatus and just read the new codex. Is it just me or are Vertus Praetors and their Shield-Captain counterpart terrifyingly strong and mobile? They give me vibes of old school Thunderwolf cavalry, so I’m wondering if building a full list of solely bikes would be viable.
Aetare wrote: Back from a hiatus and just read the new codex. Is it just me or are Vertus Praetors and their Shield-Captain counterpart terrifyingly strong and mobile? They give me vibes of old school Thunderwolf cavalry, so I’m wondering if building a full list of solely bikes would be viable.
They're terrifying compared to the rest of Custodes units, which aren't very good.
Compared to everything else in the game though, they're just fine.
They're definitely the best units in the codex. I'd say the Vertus Praetors compare favorably with other similarly-costed units in the game. A Dark Angels Talonmaster is the closest thing I can think of off the top my head, and it's about twice as expensive.
MilkmanAl wrote: They're definitely the best units in the codex. I'd say the Vertus Praetors compare favorably with other similarly-costed units in the game. A Dark Angels Talonmaster is the closest thing I can think of off the top my head, and it's about twice as expensive.
Fair assessment. Those hurricane Bolters combined with bonuses on the charge seem really funny all ranges.
Primark G wrote: The thing about bikes is there are units that can charge them and survive... then they can’t charge the next turn. That’s a solid counter tactic.
Very true, but unless those units are also resistant to bolter fire it's just delaying the inevitable. Bikers do more damage to low T/Sv units at close range with hurricane bolters than spears. If it's something like a knight or a primarch...it's going to get charged by everything else next turn.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Aetare wrote: Back from a hiatus and just read the new codex. Is it just me or are Vertus Praetors and their Shield-Captain counterpart terrifyingly strong and mobile? They give me vibes of old school Thunderwolf cavalry, so I’m wondering if building a full list of solely bikes would be viable.
Let's compare a 90 pt bike to 81 pts of dark reapers:
3 Reapers shooting at a bike with starshot: 3 shots/2 hits/1.33 wounds/0.67 unsaved=2 damage
Starswarm: 6 shots/4 hits/1.33 wounds/0.67 unsaved=1.33 damage
Hurricane bolter at Reapers (24"): 6 shots/5 hits/3.33 wounds=1.11 wounds. At 12" bike does 2.22 unsaved wounds.
Obviously it's not a fractional game, but the math says that it's not outside the realm of possibility for a bike to win a shootout against dark reapers, depending on the range (we know who wins in close combat). Note that regardless of profile though you need 2 unsaved wounds from the reapers to kill a bike, and this doesn't include Strength from Death effects (shooting twice).
There is a specific profile that works well against bikes: S7+, AP-2, D4+ (or D2+ with high volume). Those weapons are rare. T6 makes them resistant to most anti-infantry weapons, 2+ means you need good AP and 4++ means that you need 2 lascannon wounds to kill one. Not to mention that 4 wounds makes them able to take 2 of the D3 wounds that you'll normally bring for bikes and terminators. Are there counters? Sure. My point, however, is that those counters are unlikely to be taken in the quantities needed to kill or cripple an army of bikes before they start taking your army apart. For more math on their resiliency and discussion of counters see a few pages back.
Plasma is the scariest thing for jetbikes, I think. It’s also the reason the vexillum magnifica is so good. Nobody with a plasma gun wants a penalty to hit. It’s useless against reapers though, of course.
Mandragola wrote: Plasma is the scariest thing for jetbikes, I think. It’s also the reason the vexillum magnifica is so good. Nobody with a plasma gun wants a penalty to hit. It’s useless against reapers though, of course.
Yep, especially since you have to overcharge to make it worthwhile, and even then it takes 2 unsaved wounds to kill a bike. Plus, 24" (most plasma) means that any surviving bikes will move 14", unload hurricane bolters on you, and then probably attempt a 10" charge. I did the math on Dark Reapers since they are widely regarded as the most OP unit in the game right now.
Mandragola wrote: Plasma is the scariest thing for jetbikes, I think. It’s also the reason the vexillum magnifica is so good. Nobody with a plasma gun wants a penalty to hit. It’s useless against reapers though, of course.
reaper gatling cannon equivalents are the scariest thing for a bike, but plasma is close behind
What do people think of (hold your laughter) GK as allies for custodes? For 190 pts Voldus gives 3 denies, and dropping some strikes on objectives would give additional denial bubbles. The biggest issue is 1) everything else GK do custodes already do better and cheaper and 2) GK struggle with CP generation as well. A pure detchament gives strike squads obsec and +1 to denial, so I see basically 3 options:
Patrol: Voldus, 1 strike (4 denies, 295 pts)
Outrider: Voldus, 3 interceptors (6 denies, 565 pts, +1 CP)
Battalion: Voldus, GMDK/Bro Champ, 3 strikes (7 denies, 755/620 pts, +3 CP)
Or you could do Voldus+2 brotherhood champions in a supreme command for 420 pts (5 denies, +1 CP), but brotherhood champions suck.
Along the same lines, primaris psykers and SM librarians offer similar capabilities, just without the +1 deny (unless you’re within 12” for the psychic hood). A Culexus is nice, but I think actually being able to throw dice to deny is potentially useful depending on the meta.
greyknight12 wrote: What do people think of (hold your laughter) GK as allies for custodes? For 190 pts Voldus gives 3 denies, and dropping some strikes on objectives would give additional denial bubbles. The biggest issue is 1) everything else GK do custodes already do better and cheaper and 2) GK struggle with CP generation as well. A pure detchament gives strike squads obsec and +1 to denial, so I see basically 3 options:
Patrol: Voldus, 1 strike (4 denies, 295 pts)
Outrider: Voldus, 3 interceptors (6 denies, 565 pts, +1 CP)
Battalion: Voldus, GMDK/Bro Champ, 3 strikes (7 denies, 755/620 pts, +3 CP)
Or you could do Voldus+2 brotherhood champions in a supreme command for 420 pts (5 denies, +1 CP), but brotherhood champions suck.
Along the same lines, primaris psykers and SM librarians offer similar capabilities, just without the +1 deny (unless you’re within 12” for the psychic hood). A Culexus is nice, but I think actually being able to throw dice to deny is potentially useful depending on the meta.
GK is a decent option I think. Not ideal in terms of CP as you say, but they bring the best source of mass psychic denial points can buy, which Custodes sorely need. Native deepstrike combos well with earthbound Custodes as well.
I think from a purely min-maxing perspective, you'd be better off taking a soup battalion detachment with Greyfax, Primaris psyker(s), Platoon commander warlord, Culexus (Culexi?) and SM scouts or guardsmen. Its more bang for less buck but its also horrific from a narrative POV and I wouldn't enjoy taking it to a game.
Also, in this age before the smite nerf, Rites of Banishment is a little extra assurance against the daemon primarchs and such.
So over the last few days I have become rather infatuated with Vertus Praetors and Shield-Captains on Jetbikes, and I now own 12. I’m curious what you all think of this 2000 Point list for friendlies vs a Tyranids player.
KampfKrote wrote: So over the last few days I have become rather infatuated with Vertus Praetors and Shield-Captains on Jetbikes, and I now own 12. I’m curious what you all think of this 2000 Point list for friendlies vs a Tyranids player.
Lots of bikes, some footsloggers to gum up/hold off anything that comes in behind the bikes. C&C appreciated as always
I found your list lack of high strength shooting / Close combat attack, outside of the Bikers on their charge, you might lack of reliable ways to put wounds on Nidz monsters which are now T7 / 8. It might be better to try incorporate a few Salvo Launcher on the bikes for anti MC shooting. And try to have someone cartying those Axes. S8 melee is important VS Nidz monsters, while the lose of 1-2 points in AP is relatively ok because of those 4++ those monsters might have.
Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [9 PL, 160pts]: Hurricane Bolter
Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [9 PL, 160pts]: Hurricane Bolter
++ Total: [105 PL, 2000pts] ++
This is what I updated to. Obviously had to cut bikes to make room for termies, but it also made room for a SCDetachment so I still get the 1 extra CP. I fit in 5 axes between the Shield captains in termie armor and the squad of three, and I was able to put Salvo Launchers on the squad of bikes.
I played a tournament on Saturday with 3 SC's on Dawneagle Jetbikes and they are flat out amazing to use. So mobile, so tough, so deadly. My new favourite unit in 40k by far.
They don't like Thunder Hammers very much though. 3 Death Company killed one, and a Slamguinius took one out with contemptuous ease when he got to attack first.
Stooping Dive is just... incredible. There are strong tactics that I am going to practice around keeping the jetbike behind your front line - about 5" or 6" behind a high value unit - and using it as a deterrent for charges, or as bait to get in a counter charge on their turn. The couple of times I did it, it worked better than putting it out front to be shot at and charged.
KampfKrote wrote: So over the last few days I have become rather infatuated with Vertus Praetors and Shield-Captains on Jetbikes, and I now own 12. I’m curious what you all think of this 2000 Point list for friendlies vs a Tyranids player.
Lots of bikes, some footsloggers to gum up/hold off anything that comes in behind the bikes. C&C appreciated as always
I played a list like this on Saturday. He had 2 units of Vertus Praetors and 1 unit of 5 Allarus Terminators with Castellan Axes who deep struck. He managed to get the Allarus Vexlilla model in a tiny gap, then could deep strike the Terminators in 3" away! A bit scary.
I won, and I feel it was because for most of the game it was my 2000 points against 1500 points of his Custodes, while the other 500+ points of standard Custodian Guard squads stood around on objectives on the other side of the board, then tried to walk over to me. If all they contribute is a couple of bolter shots, they are never going to make their points back.
They scored points but they are a very expensive objective holder!
Spartacus wrote: I think from a purely min-maxing perspective, you'd be better off taking a soup battalion detachment with Greyfax, Primaris psyker(s), Platoon commander warlord, Culexus (Culexi?) and SM scouts or guardsmen. Its more bang for less buck but its also horrific from a narrative POV and I wouldn't enjoy taking it to a game.
Agree on the battalion, and just thought of a smaller option:
Vanguard detachment: Greyfax, 2 astropaths, 1 Culexus. 242 pts, +1 CP, gives a 18” -2 to cast bubble, 2 normal denies, 2 +1 denies. If you need more, custodes have a denial warlord trait and you can add 1 deny/36 pts with additional astropaths. I’m struggling to find something cheaper than an astropath, if you just want grefax’s denies you could sub in a couple acolytes for the astropaths and save some points (-56/2 denies). Really I’m not sure how many you actually need; with the beta smite nerf (no longer beta in ITC) you only need a couple for smite and then some for the other powers we care about. Maybe 5ish in a list, with the option to warlord trait an additional after looking at your opponents’ list?
I played a list like this on Saturday. He had 2 units of Vertus Praetors and 1 unit of 5 Allarus Terminators with Castellan Axes who deep struck. He managed to get the Allarus Vexlilla model in a tiny gap, then could deep strike the Terminators in 3" away! A bit scary.
I think the Vexilla has to be on the board at the start of the turn to use that stratagem, so he shouldn't have been able to deepstrike both using it in the same turn.
This was T2. He dropped the vexilla guy in a space that was about the size of 2 bases right in my back corner on turn 1 behind my tanks. I shot 2 full lemans at the Vexilla but with his -1 to hit he survived.
Poor screening really but you get so used to having to defend against squads deep striking. Having one model on a regular base appear requires serious attention!
Silentz wrote: This was T2. He dropped the vexilla guy in a space that was about the size of 2 bases right in my back corner on turn 1 behind my tanks. I shot 2 full lemans at the Vexilla but with his -1 to hit he survived.
Poor screening really but you get so used to having to defend against squads deep striking. Having one model on a regular base appear requires serious attention!
Hmm fair enough then. Not an easy target to take down by any means especially when given a storm shield. You'd have to smite him to death or something.
My tank commander with 2d6 + 2d3 shots of S8 shooting, hitting on 3's and rerolling 1's is great. Pretty happy with him. Stick Nightshroud on him for -1 to hit. Lovely stuff.
My punisher firing 49 S5 shots is very useful indeed - even against custodes using the "fishing for 1's" tactic. I like to Ambush him near the opponent with an infantry squad screen to disrupt their plans.
The standard russ... doesn't typically do a lot. Let's be honest. particularly hitting on 5s or 6s. I might drop this for 180 points of something else.
BUT people love to shoot and assault them... they are scary things and are a nice big bullet magnet. You can park them right at the back and the opponent gets all obsessed with taking them out.
I'm not sure what else that 180 points buys me which I have in my collection or can be arsed to paint, and has the same punch.
Hi guys, currently in the process of getting my custodes ready, and I've decided on a list that might not be super competitive, it's basically for me to practice a few things in a friendly game with a more experienced opponent helping.
So, here is my list! I have purposely not gone for praetus bikes, as our group has a very densely packed table and I don't actually own any yet...
Yeah, I'm only running Cadian Tank Commanders and/or Pask anymore...tired of standard russes doing a big nothing. On the Custode side I picked up the codex and three boxes of bikes for the standard outrider detatchment - I think we may see a lot of that going around...and the models are awesome
Need one more bike for the shield captain but I don't want to have to pay for a whole other box...so 10 bikes, 20 krieg death riders and 90+ guard dudes with lascannons and mortars...can't wait to try that one out
Anyone else feeling the fire under their boots about Bike Captains getting the Commander treatment?
I can't imagine it being the case, as Bike Captains aren't running rampant and defining the competitive game, and Custodes don't have enough HQ Options otherwise (As they're literally all Shield Captains), but...
Cephalobeard wrote: Anyone else feeling the fire under their boots about Bike Captains getting the Commander treatment?
I can't imagine it being the case, as Bike Captains aren't running rampant and defining the competitive game, and Custodes don't have enough HQ Options otherwise (As they're literally all Shield Captains), but...
I'd be lying if I said I wasn't nervous.
I honestly doubt they will. Triple bike captain isn't that big a deal as a graft-on detachment, just like triple Dreadknight Grandmaster isn't for GK.
What I worry about changing is that, right now, Custodes only have one 0 point piece of wargear in the Codex: the Lance. I'm worried that gets some type of cost and all bikes go up as a result.
Where did the idea come from that this commander fix would be applied universally? Seems like a forum idea thats been blown out of proportion.
If bike captains prove to be OP when spammed, people will complain and GW will react or not accordingly. I dont think there really any more method to their madness than this.
It will make the people who hate soup happy without overly hurting actual Custodes players.
Normal bikers are better value then captains anyway.
Not entirely an accurate statement, due to the nature of the character rule.
That being said, I'm just spitfiring here folks. I'm seeing all sorts of casual players screaming for the limiting of Tyrants, Captains and the like. I'm just hoping we're not next-- I don't think it's a valid change, and I *do* think it would harm custodes, by nature of them only having captains as available options, but only time will tell I suppose.
generally speaking the Tau Commanders are substentially better in every way then crisis suits, jetbikes don't have that problem, they have the re-roll aura and 3 extra wounds and thats about it
BrianDavion wrote: generally speaking the Tau Commanders are substentially better in every way then crisis suits, jetbikes don't have that problem, they have the re-roll aura and 3 extra wounds and thats about it
Or in other words, for 20 extra points you get +1 wound, +3 attacks, and +rapid-fire 6 boltgun shots by taking 2 bikes over a shield captain. Obviously a 3++ makes a difference, but you can only give it to 2 captains max (and it costs a CP).
I was wondering about the Vexillus praetor with a Vexilla Magnifica good vs tau? And and what would you recommend vs Tau including the Custodes beta rules?
nordsturmking wrote: I was wondering about the Vexillus praetor with a Vexilla Magnifica good vs tau? And and what would you recommend vs Tau including the Custodes beta rules?
It has it's worth vs T'au, but, it just means they need to stack 5 markerlights to negate it. If they manage that, i can see them being able to drop a min squad or 2 a turn.
As for vs T'au, i think the best bet is bikes - unfortunately. You're going to need the dakka to take out the Drones and Fire Warrior screens, and the mobility to chase suits down. I do love the Dreadspear Dreadnought, but, unless you can screen it, it's going to die very quickly vs T'au, from either Ion Hammerheads, Riptides, Broadsides or Crisis Suits dropping in to instantly blow it up.
nordsturmking wrote: I was wondering about the Vexillus praetor with a Vexilla Magnifica good vs tau? And and what would you recommend vs Tau including the Custodes beta rules?
The Vexilla Magnifica is good against just about anyone; it keeps you alive long enough to get into melee where your actual damage happens.
There isn't really much about Tau that pushes your builds one way or another; they're a gunline with reasonably effective chaff and hard targets packing a lot of firepower, you don't really need to tweak anything to handle them specifically. Things to worry about with Custodes:
--Drones: Tau Battlesuits (including some of the really big ones) can allocate incoming Wounds to drones; this is done per-wound rather than per-hit, so your multi-damage attacks aren't necessarily better-off shooting the drone than the battlesuit. Weaker shots into heavier battlesuits (staff-bolters that would wound a Riptide on a 5+ going into a 3+ modified armour save, for instance) and any single-damage shots (hurricane bolters, Allarus wrist grenades) should target the drones first, however. The drones interfere with any ranged alpha-strike potential that the beta rules' bigger guns offer; the Caladius and the las-talons on the Dreadnaughts are still useful, but use them carefully lest you find yourself wasting firepower on said drones.
--Markerlights: The aforementioned drone problem and our lack of long-range shooting makes clearing Pathfinders early more of a problem than it is for other armies. Stick hard to the Vexilla Magnifica on the first turn or two so their markerlights only hit you on 5+; they can still get markerlights through but you'll force them to burn command points on the Networked Markerlight stratagem. Keep in mind that Pathfinders are single-Wound T3/5+ models and task Vertus bolters with clearing them if possible. Remember that all these big scary non-Commander battlesuits are BS4+ with no rerolls if there aren't any Markerlights on the table.
--Fly and damage tables: Riptides, Ghostkeels, and the FW Riptide variants' BS goes down when they drop past half health; they may have Fly so you can't lock them in combat, but if you can deny them their Markerlights it's usually enough to cripple them.
--Deepstrike-chicken: Most of the time you want everything on the table immediately since your army needs to get a quick lead on damage to perform well, but Tau can and will hold fusion-suits to drop in and blast down some Custodians where you really don't want them to. There's not a huge amount you can do about it, but Tau are one of the few armies against which I'd actually recommend having a few Sentinel Guard (shield/blade Guard models) to interfere with said fusion-suits.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kdash wrote: ...It has it's worth vs T'au, but, it just means they need to stack 5 markerlights to negate it. If they manage that, i can see them being able to drop a min squad or 2 a turn...
One of the great things about the Vexilla Magnifica against Tau is that their Pathfinders are hitting with said Markerlights on a 5+. You don't stop them from getting 5 Markerlights, but you usually force them to burn CP on Networked Markerlights to do it and making their big suits hit on a 4+ instead of a 3+ is still useful.
Primark G wrote:Are you planning to play pure Custodes?
Yes i do. its a casual game so i don't want to ally AM or some thing.
Kdash wrote:
nordsturmking wrote: I was wondering about the Vexillus praetor with a Vexilla Magnifica good vs tau? And and what would you recommend vs Tau including the Custodes beta rules?
It has it's worth vs T'au, but, it just means they need to stack 5 markerlights to negate it. If they manage that, i can see them being able to drop a min squad or 2 a turn.
As for vs T'au, i think the best bet is bikes - unfortunately. You're going to need the dakka to take out the Drones and Fire Warrior screens, and the mobility to chase suits down. I do love the Dreadspear Dreadnought, but, unless you can screen it, it's going to die very quickly vs T'au, from either Ion Hammerheads, Riptides, Broadsides or Crisis Suits dropping in to instantly blow it up.
What about teleporting it on to the battlefield and try to charge on first turn?
AnomanderRake wrote:
nordsturmking wrote: I was wondering about the Vexillus praetor with a Vexilla Magnifica good vs tau? And and what would you recommend vs Tau including the Custodes beta rules?
The Vexilla Magnifica is good against just about anyone; it keeps you alive long enough to get into melee where your actual damage happens.
There isn't really much about Tau that pushes your builds one way or another; they're a gunline with reasonably effective chaff and hard targets packing a lot of firepower, you don't really need to tweak anything to handle them specifically. Things to worry about with Custodes:
--Drones: Tau Battlesuits (including some of the really big ones) can allocate incoming Wounds to drones; this is done per-wound rather than per-hit, so your multi-damage attacks aren't necessarily better-off shooting the drone than the battlesuit. Weaker shots into heavier battlesuits (staff-bolters that would wound a Riptide on a 5+ going into a 3+ modified armour save, for instance) and any single-damage shots (hurricane bolters, Allarus wrist grenades) should target the drones first, however. The drones interfere with any ranged alpha-strike potential that the beta rules' bigger guns offer; the Caladius and the las-talons on the Dreadnaughts are still useful, but use them carefully lest you find yourself wasting firepower on said drones.
--Markerlights: The aforementioned drone problem and our lack of long-range shooting makes clearing Pathfinders early more of a problem than it is for other armies. Stick hard to the Vexilla Magnifica on the first turn or two so their markerlights only hit you on 5+; they can still get markerlights through but you'll force them to burn command points on the Networked Markerlight stratagem. Keep in mind that Pathfinders are single-Wound T3/5+ models and task Vertus bolters with clearing them if possible. Remember that all these big scary non-Commander battlesuits are BS4+ with no rerolls if there aren't any Markerlights on the table.
--Fly and damage tables: Riptides, Ghostkeels, and the FW Riptide variants' BS goes down when they drop past half health; they may have Fly so you can't lock them in combat, but if you can deny them their Markerlights it's usually enough to cripple them.
--Deepstrike-chicken: Most of the time you want everything on the table immediately since your army needs to get a quick lead on damage to perform well, but Tau can and will hold fusion-suits to drop in and blast down some Custodians where you really don't want them to. There's not a huge amount you can do about it, but Tau are one of the few armies against which I'd actually recommend having a few Sentinel Guard (shield/blade Guard models) to interfere with said fusion-suits.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kdash wrote: ...It has it's worth vs T'au, but, it just means they need to stack 5 markerlights to negate it. If they manage that, i can see them being able to drop a min squad or 2 a turn...
One of the great things about the Vexilla Magnifica against Tau is that their Pathfinders are hitting with said Markerlights on a 5+. You don't stop them from getting 5 Markerlights, but you usually force them to burn CP on Networked Markerlights to do it and making their big suits hit on a 4+ instead of a 3+ is still useful.
Thanks for your detailed answer. I think i will take one Vexillus Praetor. I was planning on taking the Caladius grav tank and maybe a LR to kill tanks, Riptides and so on. What do you think good idea or will the Tau kill the LR in turn one?
nordsturmking wrote: I was wondering about the Vexillus praetor with a Vexilla Magnifica good vs tau? And and what would you recommend vs Tau including the Custodes beta rules?
The Vexilla Magnifica is good against just about anyone; it keeps you alive long enough to get into melee where your actual damage happens.
There isn't really much about Tau that pushes your builds one way or another; they're a gunline with reasonably effective chaff and hard targets packing a lot of firepower, you don't really need to tweak anything to handle them specifically. Things to worry about with Custodes:
--Drones: Tau Battlesuits (including some of the really big ones) can allocate incoming Wounds to drones; this is done per-wound rather than per-hit, so your multi-damage attacks aren't necessarily better-off shooting the drone than the battlesuit. Weaker shots into heavier battlesuits (staff-bolters that would wound a Riptide on a 5+ going into a 3+ modified armour save, for instance) and any single-damage shots (hurricane bolters, Allarus wrist grenades) should target the drones first, however. The drones interfere with any ranged alpha-strike potential that the beta rules' bigger guns offer; the Caladius and the las-talons on the Dreadnaughts are still useful, but use them carefully lest you find yourself wasting firepower on said drones.
--Markerlights: The aforementioned drone problem and our lack of long-range shooting makes clearing Pathfinders early more of a problem than it is for other armies. Stick hard to the Vexilla Magnifica on the first turn or two so their markerlights only hit you on 5+; they can still get markerlights through but you'll force them to burn command points on the Networked Markerlight stratagem. Keep in mind that Pathfinders are single-Wound T3/5+ models and task Vertus bolters with clearing them if possible. Remember that all these big scary non-Commander battlesuits are BS4+ with no rerolls if there aren't any Markerlights on the table.
--Fly and damage tables: Riptides, Ghostkeels, and the FW Riptide variants' BS goes down when they drop past half health; they may have Fly so you can't lock them in combat, but if you can deny them their Markerlights it's usually enough to cripple them.
--Deepstrike-chicken: Most of the time you want everything on the table immediately since your army needs to get a quick lead on damage to perform well, but Tau can and will hold fusion-suits to drop in and blast down some Custodians where you really don't want them to. There's not a huge amount you can do about it, but Tau are one of the few armies against which I'd actually recommend having a few Sentinel Guard (shield/blade Guard models) to interfere with said fusion-suits.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kdash wrote: ...It has it's worth vs T'au, but, it just means they need to stack 5 markerlights to negate it. If they manage that, i can see them being able to drop a min squad or 2 a turn...
One of the great things about the Vexilla Magnifica against Tau is that their Pathfinders are hitting with said Markerlights on a 5+. You don't stop them from getting 5 Markerlights, but you usually force them to burn CP on Networked Markerlights to do it and making their big suits hit on a 4+ instead of a 3+ is still useful.
The problem i have with this though, is that for the same amount of points as the standard guy with the banner, you can get 3 markerlights that hit on 2+, on top of the 1 CP stratagem i don't really envision many issues - but yes, if it's against something like a marker drone spam list, then, the -1 to hit would prevent a lot of stacks.
Primark G wrote:Are you planning to play pure Custodes?
Yes i do. its a casual game so i don't want to ally AM or some thing.
Kdash wrote:
nordsturmking wrote: I was wondering about the Vexillus praetor with a Vexilla Magnifica good vs tau? And and what would you recommend vs Tau including the Custodes beta rules?
It has it's worth vs T'au, but, it just means they need to stack 5 markerlights to negate it. If they manage that, i can see them being able to drop a min squad or 2 a turn.
As for vs T'au, i think the best bet is bikes - unfortunately. You're going to need the dakka to take out the Drones and Fire Warrior screens, and the mobility to chase suits down. I do love the Dreadspear Dreadnought, but, unless you can screen it, it's going to die very quickly vs T'au, from either Ion Hammerheads, Riptides, Broadsides or Crisis Suits dropping in to instantly blow it up.
What about teleporting it on to the battlefield and try to charge on first turn?
Spoiler:
AnomanderRake wrote:
nordsturmking wrote: I was wondering about the Vexillus praetor with a Vexilla Magnifica good vs tau? And and what would you recommend vs Tau including the Custodes beta rules?
The Vexilla Magnifica is good against just about anyone; it keeps you alive long enough to get into melee where your actual damage happens.
There isn't really much about Tau that pushes your builds one way or another; they're a gunline with reasonably effective chaff and hard targets packing a lot of firepower, you don't really need to tweak anything to handle them specifically. Things to worry about with Custodes:
--Drones: Tau Battlesuits (including some of the really big ones) can allocate incoming Wounds to drones; this is done per-wound rather than per-hit, so your multi-damage attacks aren't necessarily better-off shooting the drone than the battlesuit. Weaker shots into heavier battlesuits (staff-bolters that would wound a Riptide on a 5+ going into a 3+ modified armour save, for instance) and any single-damage shots (hurricane bolters, Allarus wrist grenades) should target the drones first, however. The drones interfere with any ranged alpha-strike potential that the beta rules' bigger guns offer; the Caladius and the las-talons on the Dreadnaughts are still useful, but use them carefully lest you find yourself wasting firepower on said drones.
--Markerlights: The aforementioned drone problem and our lack of long-range shooting makes clearing Pathfinders early more of a problem than it is for other armies. Stick hard to the Vexilla Magnifica on the first turn or two so their markerlights only hit you on 5+; they can still get markerlights through but you'll force them to burn command points on the Networked Markerlight stratagem. Keep in mind that Pathfinders are single-Wound T3/5+ models and task Vertus bolters with clearing them if possible. Remember that all these big scary non-Commander battlesuits are BS4+ with no rerolls if there aren't any Markerlights on the table.
--Fly and damage tables: Riptides, Ghostkeels, and the FW Riptide variants' BS goes down when they drop past half health; they may have Fly so you can't lock them in combat, but if you can deny them their Markerlights it's usually enough to cripple them.
--Deepstrike-chicken: Most of the time you want everything on the table immediately since your army needs to get a quick lead on damage to perform well, but Tau can and will hold fusion-suits to drop in and blast down some Custodians where you really don't want them to. There's not a huge amount you can do about it, but Tau are one of the few armies against which I'd actually recommend having a few Sentinel Guard (shield/blade Guard models) to interfere with said fusion-suits.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kdash wrote: ...It has it's worth vs T'au, but, it just means they need to stack 5 markerlights to negate it. If they manage that, i can see them being able to drop a min squad or 2 a turn...
One of the great things about the Vexilla Magnifica against Tau is that their Pathfinders are hitting with said Markerlights on a 5+. You don't stop them from getting 5 Markerlights, but you usually force them to burn CP on Networked Markerlights to do it and making their big suits hit on a 4+ instead of a 3+ is still useful.
Thanks for your detailed answer. I think i will take one Vexillus Praetor. I was planning on taking the Caladius grav tank and maybe a LR to kill tanks, Riptides and so on. What do you think good idea or will the Tau kill the LR in turn one?
Deep striking it is a solid way of preventing the 1st turn destruction, but, you then have to make sure that you do enough damage in that first turn to reduce the threat. This goes for going up against most 40k armies, due to the ability of just falling back from combat.
Okay cool it is a fun game. First don't necessarily assume the Tau will be a gunline. Commandrone spam is still a thing! Tau can play very aggressively and are pretty mobile with all those suits hopping around. What you want is a lot of units held in deep strike reserve so you can react to how they deploy. If your opponent does bring gun line then drop everything in turn 1 as close as possible - they cannot get away then you charge the next turn. However also note Tau can deep strike a lot of units too. Probably two squads of jetbikes and two shield captains on jetbikes and you'll be fine. Anything you touch will die.
Primark G wrote: Okay cool it is a fun game. First don't necessarily assume the Tau will be a gunline. Commandrone spam is still a thing! Tau can play very aggressively and are pretty mobile with all those suits hopping around. What you want is a lot of units held in deep strike reserve so you can react to how they deploy. If your opponent does bring gun line then drop everything in turn 1 as close as possible - they cannot get away then you charge the next turn. However also note Tau can deep strike a lot of units too. Probably two squads of jetbikes and two shield captains on jetbikes and you'll be fine. Anything you touch will die.
Have you not heard the new info GW released? Tau commanders is NOT a thing, they are 0-1 per detachment, you can only have 3 in Matched play here really soon.
Primark G wrote: It is still a thing until the new codex drops... chill bruh.
I would imagine all the discussion about counters to Tau in this thread would be in context to the new rules in the codex, seeing as it is a matter of days away.
Riptides with overcharged weapons look absolutely devastating against Custodes and Custodian accessories. Even if they're forced to hit on a 5+, the sheer number of shots and damage from things like an overcharged Heavy burst cannon will brutalise whatever unit that get shot at.
It will be a matter of how quickly can you shut them down if you're up against them. I imagine your opponent will screen them with the cheap-as troops options Tau now have so going for a charge out of deepstrike is probably off the table. I have been thinking about an expensive unit of 5-6 bikes all with salvo launchers, brought in via teleport. Even if you can't kill it ouright it will be much easier to bring down eventually. Not cost effective but its something. Just hope he doesn't have the 3++ Nova save up when you do it.
Not necessarily and even if my advice still stands... even with just three commanders Tau can be a highly mobile army. Remember their tanks have keyword Fly so they can hop up on top of buildings and such.
Primark G wrote: Not necessarily and even if my advice still stands... even with just three commanders Tau can be a highly mobile army. Remember their tanks have keyword Fly so they can hop up on top of buildings and such.
Amishprn86's question was ignorant IMO.
WOW "Chill Bruh"
Why are you so hostile for me saying they can no longer be spammed? many dont know, its good to let people know new rules, you need to calm down.
I didnt attack you, i didnt call you names, i didnt say you were wrong in advice that tau can be fast, i said "You can not spam Commanders in new rules"
Lol are you seriously trolling me? Do you really think I am not aware of the pending new Tau codex and restriction on commanders. You need to dial down your rudeness.
Some updates after a recent game. Jetbikes were great as expected. I was hoping to run more, but due to a friend grabbing the wrong foam I was short by 2 for my intended list. Had to swap around models to make up the points (included a Trajann and cut Guard).
My biggest take away from my game vs Tyranids was that Jetbikes will draw almost all of the enemy fire. This allowed my Termies to run free and shell out some massive damage. Very excited to test out some more with the Allarus, gonna try to deep strike + Release the Lions in my next game to see how a “Voltron” style would play. May be playing 1000 Pts this weekend though, in which case I’ll be trying out 10 bikes as we both want to see how that goes.
Eihnlazer wrote: If your going pure, you really need 2 battalions for the CP.
Two!? How much CP are you spending? 1 works fine for me with a specialty detachment or two. 7-8 CP nets a fair amount of options (generally I use 1 Victor of the Blood Games, 1 Deep Strike and reserve the rest for situational).
2 Battalions also requires a whole bunch of points wasted spent on Guard that could've gone elsewhere. Pretty sure I'm not a fan of that for an extra 2 CP.
How many relics are you running? I typically take a 3++ for one of my captains.
I generally just take 1. The relic Vexilla aren't terribly exciting so I'm mostly bouncing around between Aurric Aquillus, Eagle's Eye and Praetorian Plate (I may not like Allarus as an elite unit but it's a completely worthwhile upgrade on a Shield-Captain).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MilkmanAl wrote: 2 Battalions also requires a whole bunch of points wasted spent on Guard that could've gone elsewhere. Pretty sure I'm not a fan of that for an extra 2 CP.
Primark G wrote: I run my AC as Vanguard and Smurfs as a battalion - if Marneus dies then I convert the jetbike Captain to WL with the SC trait.
Going allies opens up SO MANY doors. This is a good example of one of them. Allarus actually have a place with Ultramarines by being super terminators and the Ultras supply CP and 1st turn assault denial.
I've been running mine with AdMech at the moment. An Outrider of Custodes (Bike-Captain, 2 Bike Squads, Vexilla Praetor, 1 Caladius Tank) and a Battalion of AdMech (Dominus, Enginseer, 3 Skitarii Rangers, 2 Neutron Onagers). Still experimenting with the remaining flex points that leaves me at 2k.
How do you like the Calidus tank? I can't until FW releases official rules. Admech seems like a great army to combine with Custodes... Neutron Onagers are sick!
My army half sets up in deep strike reserve so first turn I can drop everything in and overload a flank.
We are starting an escalation league at 500 points. I am considering starting a Custodes army. Where would you suggest to start? Dont be afraid to explain why as well, I have very little knowledge about the army as I have only played a handful of games in my short gaming time and they were all with the waaaagh.
Primark G wrote: How do you like the Calidus tank? I can't until FW releases official rules. Admech seems like a great army to combine with Custodes... Neutron Onagers are sick!
My army half sets up in deep strike reserve so first turn I can drop everything in and overload a flank.
That's a nice start!
My opinion of the Caladius has improved a lot over time. In the beginning, I thought it was really overcosted, but now I've decided it's only a little overcosted. It works great as a stationary, heavy gun for taking out vehicles/monsters.
Obviously, this isn't how it was meant to be used. It's a hover tank with fly, it should move and zoom, but that -1 to Hit penalty for moving is just brutal when lots of targets already have a -1 to Hit buff of their own. I sent an e-mail to Forgeworld recommending they add Power of the Machine Spirit at no extra cost (or a 5++). I feel this would bring it fully into line as a good, competitive pick within the Codex.
I also recommended they do both for a small points increase (to 335 or 350).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
RiderOrk wrote: We are starting an escalation league at 500 points. I am considering starting a Custodes army. Where would you suggest to start? Dont be afraid to explain why as well, I have very little knowledge about the army as I have only played a handful of games in my short gaming time and they were all with the waaaagh.
At 500 points you're basically stuck at a patrol detachment, but if you want to make a real competitive one try out a Shield-Captain in Allarus Terminator Armor, a Custodian Guard Squad (1 shield and 2 spears) and a Vexilla Preator with the Magnifica. Give the Captain and the Praetorian both Castellan Axes and Misericordias. Give the 2 spears Misericordias.
This should be about 447 points altogether. The axes let your Captain and Vexilla be anti-tank hunters, striking at S8 with AP-2 and 1D3 damage. The Vexilla gives your entire army -1 to be Hit to be safe from shooting. The spears and shield give you what most view as the most balanced Guard unit, with one model having a 3++ to soak the big wounds while the other two hit harder offensively at S6.
Your shooting is low in this list, about 4 Rapid Fire 1 shots, but they'll do 2 damage each so you can strip some armor. The shield gives you two pistol shots too. Every unit you have is also objective secured.
The Misericordias are the Custodes equivalent of chainsword. They cost points, but you get a bonus S5 AP-2 1 damage attack per model so helpful for clearing out more numerous armies.
Importantly, the Vexilla is a unit you'll want in any build you grow into while the Captain and Guard begin the path to opening up a battalion for the CP.
even with just the GW supplied stuff we've got most of the bases covered, Not was optimal as we may like but we have tools to deal with most things. I'm curious how many points those new baby knights are gonna be, if they're only 150ish points like some are speculating, one or two will ba a fantastic supplement to custodies
Updated my last list to be able to handle Psykers a bit better hopefully. I have 2 variations one I will post below, the other runs Hector Rex, Sisters of Silence, and a Culexus. Lemme know what you guys think:
The relic called "Auric Aquilis" gives 3+ invulnerable save to one Shield-Captain on jetbike.
The other relic named "Eagle's Eye" improves another character's invulnerable save by 1 point, which combined with Adeptus Custodes detachment bonus gives 3+ invulnerable save.
Having 2 Captains on Bikes with 3++ has been SUPER good for me. They’re monsters in melee, and are hard to take out, especially since one has a 5+ FNP (which can be moved to the other if you use Shoulder the Burden). Additionally, I’ve been using Victor of the Blood Games, which saves CP over the course of the game.
A minor change to my list, I dropped the Vexillus Praetor out of termi armor, and gave the two inquisitors Plasma Guns, will help me tank busting if the Allarus can’t get into melee with them.
So, I see a lot of people taking Superior Creation (5+ FNP), but I'm really starting to think Radiant Mantle (-1 to Hit the Warlord) is significantly better. What's everyone's logic with Superior?
I’m not sure where I saw it, but someone mathhammered out the saved wounds between the -1 to hit and 5+ fnp. I may try out Radiant Mantle, at first I thought it was only against ranged attacks. And if it stacks with a Vexillus it’s pretty sweet.
Audustum wrote: So, I see a lot of people taking Superior Creation (5+ FNP), but I'm really starting to think Radiant Mantle (-1 to Hit the Warlord) is significantly better. What's everyone's logic with Superior?
possiably keeping their warlord close to a velexus preator?
Audustum wrote: So, I see a lot of people taking Superior Creation (5+ FNP), but I'm really starting to think Radiant Mantle (-1 to Hit the Warlord) is significantly better. What's everyone's logic with Superior?
the math favors superior creation a bit I believe, but I'm tired and could be a bit delusional
Audustum wrote: So, I see a lot of people taking Superior Creation (5+ FNP), but I'm really starting to think Radiant Mantle (-1 to Hit the Warlord) is significantly better. What's everyone's logic with Superior?
The -1 to hit will only really help against low WS/BS attacks. Since alot of things your warlord will fight are WS2, you're only reducing damage taken by 1/5, or 20% (WS/BS3+ is a 25% reduction), while a 5+++ reduces wounds taken by 33%. Also, -1 to hit does nothing against psychic attacks (think smite/mortal wounds) or auto-hits, while FNP does.
Interesting! I hadn't seen any math on it yet. it does stack with the Vexillus Praetor though to make it -2. It also forces Captain Slamguinus's to -2 when trying to fight your warlord (or any other Thunder Hammer/Power Fist/Unwieldly) I think.
If any of you find the math, mind copy/pasta'ing it here?
Audustum wrote: So, I see a lot of people taking Superior Creation (5+ FNP), but I'm really starting to think Radiant Mantle (-1 to Hit the Warlord) is significantly better. What's everyone's logic with Superior?
The -1 to hit will only really help against low WS/BS attacks. Since alot of things your warlord will fight are WS2, you're only reducing damage taken by 1/5, or 20% (WS/BS3+ is a 25% reduction), while a 5+++ reduces wounds taken by 33%. Also, -1 to hit does nothing against psychic attacks (think smite/mortal wounds) or auto-hits, while FNP does.
There's some! Thanks! The psyhic I knew about, but most of those have to target the closest unit anyway (which usually isn't my WL). How does it look if it's at -2 though?
Audustum wrote: There's some! Thanks! The psyhic I knew about, but most of those have to target the closest unit anyway (which usually isn't my WL). How does it look if it's at -2 though?
Just gotta keep in mind that the Vexilla -1 is only to range outside of 12”, and if you’re not in melee with this guy you’re a sad boy. So you’re only ever benefiting from the Vexilla on turn 1 if your opponent is playing first and is able to shoot you heavily.
Audustum wrote: There's some! Thanks! The psyhic I knew about, but most of those have to target the closest unit anyway (which usually isn't my WL). How does it look if it's at -2 though?
Just gotta keep in mind that the Vexilla -1 is only to range outside of 12”, and if you’re not in melee with this guy you’re a sad boy. So you’re only ever benefiting from the Vexilla on turn 1 if your opponent is playing first and is able to shoot you heavily.
Which is surprisingly a lot of lists. My meta is all competitive mindset and tournament practice. Everyone is bringing shooting lists designed to crush half your force in T1 or heavy T1 assault lists (in which case Radiant Mantle is helping by turning unwieldy weapons into -2). I usually park the Vexilla by the Caladius after T1/T2 (if he runs and advances the bikes can usually keep a toe in range).
That's why I'm curious to explore the math though. If Superior Creation really comes out better in realistic scenarios then yeah, I intend to take it.
Not to mention how unattractive the -1 to hit makes it to shoot plasma at him. With a 3++ save and 7 wounds, you would really hate to overheat plasma on him unless you were Dark Angels.
Anyone have any smart ideas about how to deal with a Vvarha Battlesuit or 2 using Custodes?
They have disgusting flamers for overwatch which are extended to 14 inch range with the correct Sept trait, as well as the other powerful gun. Damage 3, good strength and AP all round so pretty much a Custodes vaccum cleaner.
Its relatively weak vs long range shooting as it only gets a 5++, but in close it goes to a 4++, plus drones to worry about.
You basically can't charge it thanks to overwatch.
Terminator concussions grenades don't work because its not INFANTRY.
Salvo lanchers are ok but sub-optimal, because for some reason its not a VEHICLE either, so you don't get the Melta rule kicking in.
Any other ideas? I'm not sure Custodes could reasonably handle even one of these things without dipping into imperial soup for cheap AT guns.
5+ Bike squad is best thing we have against it. You will loose 2 bikes when you charge it, but should kill it in return (especially with the start to get extra attacks).
To add insult to injury have a bike captain with the banner to let the dead guys shoot when they die and all his drones should be dead too.
Eihnlazer wrote: Againgst single damage attacks, SC easily wins out for efficiency, but againgst damage 3 or higher attacks, RM wins out.
Only in certain cases. RM only works IF it blocks the attack, which as I have pointed out earlier isn't that often against low WS/BS attacks. From a mathhammer standpoint, its net effect is to decrease the incoming damage by a percentage. So for example (WS3+, 3 damage):
-1: 0.5 (hit)*1 (irrelevant to wound)*3 (damage)=1.5 wounds taken
5+ FNP: 0.67 (hit)*1 (again irrelevant cause they're equal)*3 (damage)*0.67 (gets through FNP)=1.3 wounds taken
And in this example, it doesn't matter how much damage the weapon does, FNP is always better. The point at which they become equal is 0.67*X=(X-0.17), where X is the probability to hit with a model's inate BS. That number is 0.51, which equates to a natural WS/BS4+. So, if your character is taking a bunch of BS4+ lascannons to the face, then the -1 is better. Since your captain is more likely dueling units that have better WS than that, the 5+ FNP is usually better.
KampfKrote wrote: Just gotta keep in mind that the Vexilla -1 is only to range outside of 12”, and if you’re not in melee with this guy you’re a sad boy. So you’re only ever benefiting from the Vexilla on turn 1 if your opponent is playing first and is able to shoot you heavily.
The vexilla magnifica doesn't have a range limit, so it's aura always applies to shooting attacks.
Audustum wrote:There's some! Thanks! The psyhic I knew about, but most of those have to target the closest unit anyway (which usually isn't my WL). How does it look if it's at -2 though?
The math is pretty simple: take the number of possible hits on a D6 with natural BS, then divide the reduction by the unmodified for the percent reduction. For example:
BS3+ hits on 3-6, so 4 possibilities. (-1)/4= -0.25 or 25% reduction. For -2 it works out to:
BS2+: 40% reduction
BS3+: 50% reduction
BS4+: 67% reduction
BS5+: 100% reduction (neither BS5 nor 6 can hit)
So with a -2 (Vexilla+RM), up to and including BS2+ you're better off than FNP. Once you get to CC though, you're only better against WS4+ or better.
Eihnlazer wrote: Againgst single damage attacks, SC easily wins out for efficiency, but againgst damage 3 or higher attacks, RM wins out.
Only in certain cases. RM only works IF it blocks the attack, which as I have pointed out earlier isn't that often against low WS/BS attacks. From a mathhammer standpoint, its net effect is to decrease the incoming damage by a percentage. So for example (WS3+, 3 damage):
-1: 0.5 (hit)*1 (irrelevant to wound)*3 (damage)=1.5 wounds taken
5+ FNP: 0.67 (hit)*1 (again irrelevant cause they're equal)*3 (damage)*0.67 (gets through FNP)=1.3 wounds taken
And in this example, it doesn't matter how much damage the weapon does, FNP is always better. The point at which they become equal is 0.67*X=(X-0.17), where X is the probability to hit with a model's inate BS. That number is 0.51, which equates to a natural WS/BS4+. So, if your character is taking a bunch of BS4+ lascannons to the face, then the -1 is better. Since your captain is more likely dueling units that have better WS than that, the 5+ FNP is usually better.
KampfKrote wrote: Just gotta keep in mind that the Vexilla -1 is only to range outside of 12”, and if you’re not in melee with this guy you’re a sad boy. So you’re only ever benefiting from the Vexilla on turn 1 if your opponent is playing first and is able to shoot you heavily.
The vexilla magnifica doesn't have a range limit, so it's aura always applies to shooting attacks.
Audustum wrote:There's some! Thanks! The psyhic I knew about, but most of those have to target the closest unit anyway (which usually isn't my WL). How does it look if it's at -2 though?
The math is pretty simple: take the number of possible hits on a D6 with natural BS, then divide the reduction by the unmodified for the percent reduction. For example:
BS3+ hits on 3-6, so 4 possibilities. (-1)/4= -0.25 or 25% reduction. For -2 it works out to:
BS2+: 40% reduction
BS3+: 50% reduction
BS4+: 67% reduction
BS5+: 100% reduction (neither BS5 nor 6 can hit)
So with a -2 (Vexilla+RM), up to and including BS2+ you're better off than FNP. Once you get to CC though, you're only better against WS4+ or better.
Thanks! This is really informative. You're my hero of the day.
I might still run it because I'm worried about dueling a very particular kind of opponent (the Captain Slamguinus that's all the rage) and he's already getting a -1 from his hammer, so seems worth it, but you're right: as a general all-rounder Superior Creation is above the rest.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Spartacus wrote: Anyone have any smart ideas about how to deal with a Vvarha Battlesuit or 2 using Custodes?
They have disgusting flamers for overwatch which are extended to 14 inch range with the correct Sept trait, as well as the other powerful gun. Damage 3, good strength and AP all round so pretty much a Custodes vaccum cleaner.
Its relatively weak vs long range shooting as it only gets a 5++, but in close it goes to a 4++, plus drones to worry about.
You basically can't charge it thanks to overwatch.
Terminator concussions grenades don't work because its not INFANTRY.
Salvo lanchers are ok but sub-optimal, because for some reason its not a VEHICLE either, so you don't get the Melta rule kicking in.
Any other ideas? I'm not sure Custodes could reasonably handle even one of these things without dipping into imperial soup for cheap AT guns.
So the best thing I can think of is this:
Take a Jetbike Captain with a 3++ and Victor of the Blood Games. Make him charge first. He should survive the Overwatch. Then slam it with another unit of bikes behind him and just try to rip it down.
Alternatively, and this is counter-intuitive for us, take a big units of Swords+Shields and Spears, like a maxed out unit, then use Avenge the Fallen after they get hurt in Overwatch to compensate.
Bikes are your friends against Y'Vahras. Dakka the drones away, and charge it with enough stuff to kill it in one go. It flies, so if it lives through your assault, you get to eat another round of turbo-flamering. As mentioned, it's going to gun down 2 bikes on overwatch, so make sure you've got a healthy squad plus a shield captains or something going in.
Take a Jetbike Captain with a 3++ and Victor of the Blood Games. Make him charge first. He should survive the Overwatch. Then slam it with another unit of bikes behind him and just try to rip it down.
Alternatively, and this is counter-intuitive for us, take a big units of Swords+Shields and Spears, like a maxed out unit, then use Avenge the Fallen after they get hurt in Overwatch to compensate.
I like the bike captain idea, good way to abuse that 3++ and reroll to charge. With the 5+++ WL Trait and Blood Games rerolls he should statistically only take 3-4 wounds I think.
The big Custodian Guard unit intrigues me also, but my friend's a smart player and probably knows I have to charge it to kill it. I don't think he will position it within easy charge range of a 500-600 point unit on foot. Bikes of course have no such troubles.
Eihnlazer wrote: Againgst single damage attacks, SC easily wins out for efficiency, but againgst damage 3 or higher attacks, RM wins out.
Only in certain cases. RM only works IF it blocks the attack, which as I have pointed out earlier isn't that often against low WS/BS attacks. From a mathhammer standpoint, its net effect is to decrease the incoming damage by a percentage. So for example (WS3+, 3 damage):
-1: 0.5 (hit)*1 (irrelevant to wound)*3 (damage)=1.5 wounds taken
5+ FNP: 0.67 (hit)*1 (again irrelevant cause they're equal)*3 (damage)*0.67 (gets through FNP)=1.3 wounds taken
And in this example, it doesn't matter how much damage the weapon does, FNP is always better. The point at which they become equal is 0.67*X=(X-0.17), where X is the probability to hit with a model's inate BS. That number is 0.51, which equates to a natural WS/BS4+. So, if your character is taking a bunch of BS4+ lascannons to the face, then the -1 is better. Since your captain is more likely dueling units that have better WS than that, the 5+ FNP is usually better.
KampfKrote wrote: Just gotta keep in mind that the Vexilla -1 is only to range outside of 12”, and if you’re not in melee with this guy you’re a sad boy. So you’re only ever benefiting from the Vexilla on turn 1 if your opponent is playing first and is able to shoot you heavily.
The vexilla magnifica doesn't have a range limit, so it's aura always applies to shooting attacks.
Audustum wrote:There's some! Thanks! The psyhic I knew about, but most of those have to target the closest unit anyway (which usually isn't my WL). How does it look if it's at -2 though?
The math is pretty simple: take the number of possible hits on a D6 with natural BS, then divide the reduction by the unmodified for the percent reduction. For example:
BS3+ hits on 3-6, so 4 possibilities. (-1)/4= -0.25 or 25% reduction. For -2 it works out to:
BS2+: 40% reduction
BS3+: 50% reduction
BS4+: 67% reduction
BS5+: 100% reduction (neither BS5 nor 6 can hit)
So with a -2 (Vexilla+RM), up to and including BS2+ you're better off than FNP. Once you get to CC though, you're only better against WS4+ or better.
Lol, that's the same as saying SC is always better if you roll mostly 5 on the dice.
Look it really just comes down to this: SC gives you 33% damage reduction. RM gives you 17.5% less attacks hitting you, which could be as small as 2 extra wounds, or as large as 12 extra wounds.
If your opponent is mostly using 1 and 2 damage weaponry, SC will do better. If they are using 3-6 damage weaponry, RM is better.
No thats not how the maths works, greyknight12's post laid it out.
If you're getting shot at by enemies with relatively poor Ballistic skill like IG and Tau, it becomes more preferable to have a -1 to hit than the FNP, doesn't matter if those shots do multiple damage or not.
-1 to hit for a BS 4+ opponent will be 1/3rd fewer dice results which result in a hit (i.e. from [4, 5 and 6] to just [5 and 6]), so 1/3rd less damage, not 1/6th.
Also, the maths doesn't take into account the extra benefits of having negative hit modifiers. Things like how rerolls work (a Guilliman bubble suddenly becomes a whole lot less scary), and the added risk of overheating with plasma. Also makes it impossible to use the tesla weapon 'extra hits' mechanic.
No strategem is going to help the bikers and the termies (which I assume have axes, the extra AP strategem being worthless against invuln saves), correct?
So it'll take roughly 700pts to kill Mortarion. Yikes.
Been in two minds about whether to start a Custodes or All-dreadnought army. While messing around with lists I wondered whether using a grey Knights vanguard detachment would be worth while in helping to cover up our psychic and long range anti tank weaknesses as stand ins for the custodes own dreadnoughts. Not really played any psychic heavy armies so not sure how they would fair.
Thinking a Grandmaster nemesis-dreadknight, with either 3 doomglaives or 3 Lascannon/missle venerable dreads. In both cases they have the WS/BS of 2 to match other custodes, the doomglaives could use gate to help their mobility and the glaive would suit the halberd aesthetic of the custodes but not sure the heavy psycannon would have enough of the heavy impact on armoured targets to make them worthwhile, while the venerable dreadnoughts could use astral aim to make up for their lack of mobility but gunline seems kind of wrong with custodes for some reason.
karandrasss wrote: No strategem is going to help the bikers and the termies (which I assume have axes, the extra AP strategem being worthless against invuln saves), correct?
So it'll take roughly 700pts to kill Mortarion. Yikes.
Yikes? I mean, are other armies killing him in less, besides Eldar w/ Reapers? Genuinely curious, because that seems completed fair that 700pts of Bikes could OHKO Morty in a turn, considering he isn't going to be really doing anything on OW or hitting them back, if successful.
Alright, so I have a 1000 Point game coming up, and I’m working on a list (pretty difficult to stay away from the 10 bike list). This is what I have so far, C&C would be appreciated.
Wait... I want to doublecheck the Terminator vs. Bikers math against Daemon Primarchs.
Assume captain for everything.
Terminators get 6 shots with Axes and 6 with grenades, then 12 swings with S8 AP-2 Dd3 Axes.
That's 35/6 hits with both axe shots and grenades, for 35/18 wounds, for 35/36 failed saves, for 70/36+35/36 damage, or 2.92.
Then, the axes get 35/3 hits, 70/9 wounds, 35/9 unsaved, and 70/9 damage, for 7.78.
That is 10.70 damage total from 3 Terminators against Magnus (slightly less against Mortarion, because DR).
Bikes get 12 Lance swings and 36 bolter shots, for 35 hits, 35/3 wounds, 35/9 unsaved, or 3.89 damage.
Then, the lances get 35/3 hits, 175/27 wounds, 175/54 unsaved, and 175/27 damage, for 6.48.
That is 10.37 damage total from 3 Bikers against Magnus (slightly less against Mortarion, because DR).
With DR, the totals are:
Terminators deal 7.13
Bikers deal 6.91
I think we rounded slightly different, but yeah, that seems about right. Carry on.
KampfKrote wrote: Alright, so I have a 1000 Point game coming up, and I’m working on a list (pretty difficult to stay away from the 10 bike list). This is what I have so far, C&C would be appreciated.
I'll be playing Tyranids again. I'm also working on finding something "balanced" to play in an upcoming escalation league that is starting at 25PL. I came up with a few ideas. My first list is:
++ Supreme Command Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Adeptus Custodes) ++
Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [9 PL, 164pts]: Auric Aquilis, Hurricane Bolter, Misericordia Superior Creation, Warlord
Everything has a 3++, obviously the Shield-Captain is "filler", but he will be nasty on his own as well.
My other thought was just running a Patrol Detachment of Trajann Valoris and a unit of 3 Vertus Praetors. I am currently unsure of which I am more drawn towards, but I have a while to decide. If any of you have a cool idea, I would be very interested to see it.
Sorry for replying to my own post, but I've put together a Custodes force with a Grey knight vanguard detachment for Dreads, wouldn't mind some feedback on optimization. I know the custodian squads are poor but it doesn't feel like a custodes list with out them and also need the CP from the battalion.
Shield-Captain on Dawneagle Jetbike [9 PL, 160pts]: Hurricane Bolter (not sure whether to do the usual and give this guy the Auric Aquila or for novelties sake give the Allarus the Praetorian for tag team shennanigans with the NKDGM)
I'd use "from the golden light them come" to deep strike 1 squad of custodians with the Allarus captain, the other two would remain back field with the Praetor to look after the dreadnoughts which seems a little wasteful but not sure how to better utilize them. As for the remaining stratagem points I'm considering victor of the blood games on the two captains and two rounds of psychic onslaught for the NDKGM, but then wisdom of the ancients, shoulder the mantle and Piercing strike look useful too.
Would like to use the doomglaives as I think they would look the part, but just not sure if a few heavy psycannons is sufficient anti-tank, though I supposed I could gate 1 each round with the rest walking up with the custodians till they get their turn.
I have been playing in a couple leagues and am ranked at the bottom of the first tier. I run Custodes with SM. I came in third place recently at a tourney with pure Custodes. I like the mix better since SM fill gaps.
Any remotely competetive list beats me. Heavily scewed mass firepower beats me. Even just in terms of throwing together a list for fun, custodes aren’t very strong
stratigo wrote: Any remotely competetive list beats me. Heavily scewed mass firepower beats me. Even just in terms of throwing together a list for fun, custodes aren’t very strong
How much terrain do you play on? Massed firepower - terrain = dead banana bois for sure.
Primark G wrote: I have been playing in a couple leagues and am ranked at the bottom of the first tier. I run Custodes with SM. I came in third place recently at a tourney with pure Custodes. I like the mix better since SM fill gaps.
I would love to see your pure Custodes and Custodes/SM lists if you’re willing to share them.
stratigo wrote: Any remotely competetive list beats me. Heavily scewed mass firepower beats me. Even just in terms of throwing together a list for fun, custodes aren’t very strong
How much terrain do you play on? Massed firepower - terrain = dead banana bois for sure.
Sometimes a lot, sometimes a little
Just played a tau army that tabled me in 2 turns of mass firepower. High yield missile pods are one of the perfect counters to custodes
I think he just wanted the cheaper bodies. CP isn’t as big of a deal as I essentially have his list minus the batallion troops and an eversor and plus like 7 bikes and another shield captain
A question came up at my FLGS relating to the invuln save for some bikes that one of my opponents was running in his list. He was claiming they got a 4+ instead of the 5+ simply for being battleforged. The other part of the sentence said something like "in your Custodes detachment". I don't have the book right in front of me but the way I read it to me it meant your detachment had to be pure custodes (he had mechanicus in there for some cheap troops so it wasn't pure Custodes). Can anyone straighten me out on that?
necron99 wrote: A question came up at my FLGS relating to the invuln save for some bikes that one of my opponents was running in his list. He was claiming they got a 4+ instead of the 5+ simply for being battleforged. The other part of the sentence said something like "in your Custodes detachment". I don't have the book right in front of me but the way I read it to me it meant your detachment had to be pure custodes (he had mechanicus in there for some cheap troops so it wasn't pure Custodes). Can anyone straighten me out on that?
They have a 4++ when they are part of a pure custodes detatchment. An army can be made up of multiple detatchments, thats how he took admech with them. Likely he had an outrider detatchment for the bikes and a battalion of admech.
necron99 wrote: A question came up at my FLGS relating to the invuln save for some bikes that one of my opponents was running in his list. He was claiming they got a 4+ instead of the 5+ simply for being battleforged. The other part of the sentence said something like "in your Custodes detachment". I don't have the book right in front of me but the way I read it to me it meant your detachment had to be pure custodes (he had mechanicus in there for some cheap troops so it wasn't pure Custodes). Can anyone straighten me out on that?
In a battleforged detachment (Pure Custodes) they have the 4++, universally.
necron99 wrote: A question came up at my FLGS relating to the invuln save for some bikes that one of my opponents was running in his list. He was claiming they got a 4+ instead of the 5+ simply for being battleforged. The other part of the sentence said something like "in your Custodes detachment". I don't have the book right in front of me but the way I read it to me it meant your detachment had to be pure custodes (he had mechanicus in there for some cheap troops so it wasn't pure Custodes). Can anyone straighten me out on that?
They have a 4++ when they are part of a pure custodes detatchment. An army can be made up of multiple detatchments, thats how he took admech with them. Likely he had an outrider detatchment for the bikes and a battalion of admech.
No it's for a league I'm in - right now we're playing at 750pts Patrol only so it was a mixed bag.
If your army is Battle-forged, all INFANTRY
and BIKER units in ADEPTUS CUSTODES
Detachments gain the Sworn Guardians and
the Emperor’s Chosen abilities.
So it has to be a pure detachment, not just a battleforged army.
This is the same for all codex armies.
Thinking of starting a pure Custodes army mainly for fun since I like the look of them. Or maybe a small ally detachment later on.
So I have some questions before I start buying all my goodies- if anyone could guide me in the right direction, that'd be great!
1. What is the 'generic' or recommended wargear option for kitting out the troops (Custodian Guard squads)? 1 w/ Storm Shield/Blade and rest with Spears?
2. Hurricane Bolters or Missiles for Praetors? (And same with Shield-Captain on Jetbike- are bolters the best option?)
3. What are the 'must include' units for the army?
4. And does anyone have any modeling tips/tricks they recommend when working with Custode models?
1) 1 shield per 2 spears if min squads, 1 per 3 in larger squads
2) Hurricanes tend to perform better while being cheaper.
3) If you are dead-set on Mono Custodes: Trajann Valoris. CP is your lifeblood, and he's the only regeneration there is. In any other Situation: Biker Shield Captains. In Jest: An allied imperial guard battlation detachment.
4) Allarus terminators and Wardens both come with enough parts in the box to magnetize one guy as a vexilla bearer or regular model (Including the extra arm and shoulderpad) take advantage of this and use a small 1/10"x1/16" disc magnet pair in the arm/shoulder.
Thinking of starting a pure Custodes army mainly for fun since I like the look of them. Or maybe a small ally detachment later on.
So I have some questions before I start buying all my goodies- if anyone could guide me in the right direction, that'd be great!
1. What is the 'generic' or recommended wargear option for kitting out the troops (Custodian Guard squads)? 1 w/ Storm Shield/Blade and rest with Spears?
2. Hurricane Bolters or Missiles for Praetors? (And same with Shield-Captain on Jetbike- are bolters the best option?)
3. What are the 'must include' units for the army?
4. And does anyone have any modeling tips/tricks they recommend when working with Custode models?
Cheers!
1. Most people seem to think 1 Sword+Board and 2 Spears gives the best offense/defense combo. I personally run 3 Swords and Shields on mine because I need them primarily to hang on to objectives and stay there in the face of withering firepower.
2. Hurricane Bolters are the winner for both Jetbikes and Bike-Captains. Missiles are too expensive.
3. Bikes, bikes and more bikes. You only take Custodian Guards when you need a Custodes Battalion. There's almost no reason to take Wardens or Allarus.
4. If you want your Vexilla bearer to use a weapon other than a Misericordia, grab the Wardens box. it has a left-handed weapon model in it, unlike the Allarus box.
When it comes to allies, a lot of people in this thread will recommend Imperial Guard and they are very good allies, but they're by no means your only choice. Look to Blood Angels and Adeptus Mechanicus too. AdMech still brings plenty of CP with a lot of strong, long range firepower. Blood Angels can give you a lot of deep strike units to accompany a Bike force.
I think Trajan is over-costed even for the CP regeneration, unfortunately.
After Adepticon, how are people feeling about our need for dedicated psychic defense? Or are the points better spent on more bodies to mitigate other sources of mortal wounds (ie tyranids and DG)?
Trajann is one of the most points inefficient models in the codex. His CP regen is a one time deal, and other than his S10 weapon is the only notable thing about him.
I found this list, along with a pretty nice primer on Mono-Custodes while browsing reddit earlier and have found I have similar list building tendencies. Here is the list:
greyknight12 wrote: After Adepticon, how are people feeling about our need for dedicated psychic defense? Or are the points better spent on more bodies to mitigate other sources of mortal wounds (ie tyranids and DG)?
I think we do need to have something for it. Not a ton, but more than zero. Right now my favorite option seems to be taking a Grey Knight Patrol detachment of Voldus and a Strike Squad. Gets you 4 +1 denials for 295 points.
Trajann buffs to Custodes units is highly underrated and jetbikes are overrated. Allarus if properly used are one of the best units in the codex. I also happen to like Wardens since they can take axes - I run a Vanguard detachment by the way. Jetbikes are good but I wouldn’t build my army around them.
Primark G wrote: Trajann buffs to Custodes units is highly underrated and jetbikes are overrated. Allarus if properly used are one of the best units in the codex. I also happen to like Wardens since they can take axes - I run a Vanguard detachment by the way. Jetbikes are good but I wouldn’t build my army around them.
I've found that to be the complete opposite, I've tested Big units of Allarus hoping to use the splitting strat only for them to deepstrike down and do very little damage shooting and then struggle to make the charge. Small units have been just as bad since even the cheapest is 252 points with a 6 inch move once they come down and with how things can be screen or simply moved i find it hard to justify that many points for a one turn thing
greyknight12 wrote: After Adepticon, how are people feeling about our need for dedicated psychic defense? Or are the points better spent on more bodies to mitigate other sources of mortal wounds (ie tyranids and DG)?
Still mandatory IMO without it I find I'm vulnerable to most tourney eldar,nids and chaos lists. My three detachments mostly wind up being the standard cheap guard battalion, then a sisters/inquistion/assassins battalion then a patrol detachment of Custodes with @ bike Captains, a 3 man guard squad and a 5 man bike squad. The sisters battalion to me is great value, with seraphim you get cheap fast anti tank Celestine helps heavily in drawing firepower, splashing a culexus and greyfax doesn't lose you anything and you also get the sisters stratagem of stopping psychic powers on a 4+
Primark G wrote: I use the strategem to deep strike them into a sure charge off the Vexilla Praetor - works every time.
T1 deepstrike the Vexilla. T2 pray your still alive and that the enemy didn't pull back far enough. And requires they don't have chaff pushing you further back.
Sounds iffy to me at top level play.
(and using Plate relic requires your opponent to be dumb enough to be in combat with the chosen character (likely Celstine)).
Primark G wrote: I let the enemy come to me. There are alot of melee heavy armies in my meta.
I wonder if it would have been useful to include that in your original post so that everyone could ignore it for talking about a completely different scenario then the one being discussed.
Can we realistically expect any changes with the coming FAQ? I feel pretty much all the Custodes units are overpriced, with the biggest offender being the Land Raider. The only unit priced pretty good is the bikes.
Gryphonne wrote: Can we realistically expect any changes with the coming FAQ? I feel pretty much all the Custodes units are overpriced, with the biggest offender being the Land Raider. The only unit priced pretty good is the bikes.
I'm hoping but it's doubtful cause we're new.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Primark G wrote: I don't think so since the codex is so new. Changes to points are only done in Chapter Approved.
We actually don't know if point changes are only CA. Just as many people say they'll be in both.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Primark G wrote: Trajann buffs to Custodes units is highly underrated and jetbikes are overrated. Allarus if properly used are one of the best units in the codex. I also happen to like Wardens since they can take axes - I run a Vanguard detachment by the way. Jetbikes are good but I wouldn’t build my army around them.
We went over the math on the bikes Vs. Allarus pretty darn thoroughly!
I doubt Custodes will see much attention in the FAQ. MAAAYBE some points adjustments (my gut is they'll increase the cost of bike captains more likely then to lower the cost of other units) my over all suspicion is custodes are more or less about "right" in GW's mind
Gryphonne wrote: Can we realistically expect any changes with the coming FAQ? I feel pretty much all the Custodes units are overpriced, with the biggest offender being the Land Raider. The only unit priced pretty good is the bikes.
I'm hoping but it's doubtful cause we're new.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Primark G wrote: I don't think so since the codex is so new. Changes to points are only done in Chapter Approved.
We actually don't know if point changes are only CA. Just as many people say they'll be in both.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Primark G wrote: Trajann buffs to Custodes units is highly underrated and jetbikes are overrated. Allarus if properly used are one of the best units in the codex. I also happen to like Wardens since they can take axes - I run a Vanguard detachment by the way. Jetbikes are good but I wouldn’t build my army around them.
We went over the math on the bikes Vs. Allarus pretty darn thoroughly!
Remember Allarus with Trajann are hitting on 2+ and wounding 2+ with rerolls for both (T2-T4) and burn 1 CP for T5-T7.
And that's 500+ points to wound MEQs on a 2+ rerolling.
Let's, just for fun, compare Trajaan and a squad of 3 Allarus shooting and charging a squad of MEQs, as compared to 4 Vertus Praetors and a Captain on Dawneagle, all with bolters, doing the same.
502 points for Trajaan and the Allarus, versus 520 for the bikes. We'll give the Allarus each a Misericordia, to add 12 points and make it a little closer. 514 to 520.
Allarus get 6 shots with Axes and 6 with Grenades, doing 35/6 hits each.
Wounding on 4s rerolling 1s gives us 21/36 or 7/12 wounds per hit, for 245/72 wounds on each type of gun.
With a 4+ save on the axes, that's 245/144 dead, and a 6+ on the grenades gives us 1,225/432.
Trajaan Gets 2 shots, for 35/18 hits.
Wounds on 3s, rerolling 1s, for 28/36 or 7/9 wounds per hit, for 245/162.
With a 4+ save, that's 245/342.
Total damage in shooting? 245/144+1,225/432+245/342=1.70+2.84+.72=5.26 damage.
Close combat gets us 5 attacks from Valoris and 4 from each Allarus, hitting on 2s and wounding on 2s, rerolling, plus 4 attacks hitting on 2s, rerolling, and wounding on 3s, rerolling 1s. AP-2 on everything but Valoris' Axe, which is AP-3.
That's 35/3 hits with the Allarus Axes, 175/36 hits from Trajaan's Axe, and 35/9 hits from the Misericordias.
1,225/108 wounds on the Allarus Axes, 6,125/1,296 wounds from Trajaan's, and 245/81 wounds from the Misericordias. Total AP-2 wounds are (3,675/324+980/324) 4,655/324, and then 6,125/1,296 wounds at AP-3.
5+ saves multiply the -2 by 2/3, for 9,310/972, and then 6+ save multiplies Trajaan's Axe by 5/6, for 30,625/7,776.
Total damage in close combat? 9,310/972+30,625/7,776=9.58+3.94=13.52 damage.
TOTAL DAMAGE FOR THREE ALLARUS AND TRAJAAN
18.78
Now, to do the same for the Praetors and Captain.
60 shots, hitting on 2s, rerolling, gives us 175/3 hits.
Wounding on 4s gives us 175/6 wounds.
A 3+ save gives us 175/18 unsaved wounds.
Total damage in shooting? 175/18=9.72 damage.
Close combat gets us 21 attacks, hitting on 2s, rerolling, for 245/12 hits.
Wounding on 3s, rerolling, gets us 8/9 wounds, for 490/27 wounds at AP-3.
With a 6+ save, that gets multiplied by 5/6, for 1,225/81 unsaved wounds.
Total damage in close combat? 1,225/81=15.12 damage.
TOTAL DAMAGE FOR FOUR VERTUS PRAETORS AND CAPTAIN ON DAWNEAGLE
24.84
Nearly a third again better, on a more mobile, more durable chassis.
Even if we go one more round of close combat, somehow, that adds the same 13.52 to the Allarus, though it does drop the Praetors to only getting 11.34 more, for totals of 32.30 on Allarus+Trajaan to the Praetors 36.18.
It would take FOUR ROUNDS OF COMBAT for the Allarus to exceed the Praetors, assuming the combat lasts that long.
Admittedly, of course, you paid a whopping 6 more points.
Remember Allarus with Trajann are hitting on 2+ and wounding 2+ with rerolls for both (T2-T4) and burn 1 CP for T5-T7.
I'm sorry, what other T4 models are you referring to? Because there's no Stratagem that lets you wound T5-7 on 2s. There's a Stratagem to improve your AP to -3, but that doesn't affect wound rolls, now does it?
Primark G wrote: Let's go with a squad of five Ogryns! Make the Ogryns as tough as possible.
Tough as possible? Ogryns near a Vexila Defensor, equipped with Slab Shields, and under the effects of Pyshic Barrier. 2++, so AP is totally moot.
Hitting is identical to before, so I won't repost that.
Allarus get 245/108 wounds with each gun. Trajaan gets 245/216 wounds.
With a 2+ save, that drops to 245/648, and 245/1,296. Then, damage 2 matters now, so multiply the damage on everything but grenades by 2.
Total damage shooting? (245/648)*3+(245/1,296)*2=1.13+.38=1.51 damage.
Close combat gives us 12 attacks on 2+ rerolling, then 3+ rerolling 1s, 4 attacks at 2+ rerollable, followed by 4+ rerolling 1s, and 5 attacks at 2+ rerollable twice in a row.
35/2 hits from Axes becomes 245/18 wounds, 35/9 Misericordia hits becomes 245/108 wounds, 175/36 Trajaan hits becomes 6,125/1,296 wounds.
With a 2+ save, you get 245/108 d3 damage wounds, 245/648 1 damage wounds, and 6,125/7,776 d3 damage wounds. Assume you roll 2s for all damage rolls, but no overkill ever.
Total CC damage? (245/108+6,125/7,776)*2+245/648=(2.27+.79)*2+.38=66.50 damage.
TOTAL DAMAGE FOR THREE ALLARUS AND TRAJAAN
8.01
Vertus Praetors get 175/3 hits which becomes 175/9 wounds.
With a 2+ save, that becomes 175/54.
Total damage shooting? 175/54=3.24 damage.
245/12 hits, wounding on 3s rerolling , gives us 490/27 wounds dealt.
With a 2+ save, that's 245/81 d3 damage (treated as 2) wounds unsaved.
Total CC damage? (245/81)*2=6.05 damage.
TOTAL DAMAGE FOR FOUR VERTUS PRAETORS AND CAPTAIN ON DAWNEAGLE
9.29
Once again, the Praetors pull out ahead. In subsequent rounds, though, they drop to 4.54 damage a round of close combat, as opposed to 6.50 from the Allarus, so it takes...
Just one additional round for the Allarus to catch up. So, it's slightly more favorable to the Allarus, but I'd still prefer a unit that's both faster AND tougher AND does more damage in a round of shooting and charging.
Spartacus wrote: As undeniably correct as you are JNA, you're barking up the wrong tree so to speak. This has all been done before multiple time in this thread.
Usually by me.
I like doing the math, though, so hey, might as well.
Okay thanks JNA - I feel like this example is valuable because Ogyrn are popular and a good target for Custodes to deal with. How about versus say a Baneblade chassis?
Allarus get 35/6 hits with each gun, and Trajaan gets 35/18 hits.
That becomes 245/1,296 wounds with each, except Trajaan, who gets 245/324.
At AP-1, D2, and AP-3, D1, that's 245/2,592 and 245/648 at D2, and 1,225/7,776 at D1.
Total damage in shooting? (245/2592+245/648)*2+1,225/7,776=(.09+.38)*2+.16=1.10 damage.
In close combat, you get 35/3 Axe hits, 175/36 Trajaan hits, and 35/9 from Misericordias.
That's 245/36 Axe wounds, 1,225/324 Trajaan wounds, and 35/27 Misericordia wounds.
With a 5+ save on all that except Trajaan, that's 245/54 Axe wounds, 70/81 Misiericrodia wounds, and 6,125/1,944 Trajaan wounds.
Total CC damage? (245/54+6,125/1,944)*2+70/81=(4.54+3.15)*2+.86=16.24 damage.
TOTAL DAMAGE FOR THREE ALLARUS AND TRAJAAN
17.34
Praetors get 175/3 hits.
175/18 wounds.
175/54 damage.
Total damage in shooting? 175/54=3.24 damage.
In close combat, they get 245/12 hits.
Wounding on 5s, rerolling, gets us 5/9 chance of wounding, for 1,225/108 wounds.
With -3 AP on all that, that's 6,125/648.
Total CC damage? (6,125/648)*2=18.90 damage.
TOTAL DAMAGE FOR FOUR VERTUS PRAETORS AND CAPTAIN ON DAWNEAGLE
22.14
If I had to guess, though, it'd take only a single extra round to make up the difference. Double-checking that...
11.34 damage on each next round for Praetors, 16.24 damage for Allarus. So actually, they're basically equal round two (a difference of a tenth of a point of damage) and the Allarus do better round three.
Except there is no round 3. The Baneblade is dead by then.
Now, for bonus maths, I'm going to AnyDice, and checking the odds of them one-rounding this thing.
Allarus and Trajaan can one-round a Baneblade .15% of the time (26+ wounds), drop it to the bottom bracket 5.51% of the time (20+ wounds), drop it to the second bracket 52.95% of the time (13+ wounds). All percentages are INCLUSIVE, meaning the chance of not bracketing it at all are 47.05%.
Praetors and Captain can one-round a Baneblade 24.57% of the time (26+ wounds), drop it the bottom bracket 70.23% of the time (20+ wounds), drop it to the second bracket 97.80% of the time (13+ wounds). All percentages are INCLUSIVE, meaning the chance of not bracketing it at all are 2.20%.
Edit: Also, outside of Mathhammer, the Praetors are far, FAR more likely to be doing the charging and be in rapid fire range, since they're more than twice as fast.
Coming in from deep strike from the Vexilla Praetor in guaranteed charge range.
Using Balistus grenade launchers to prevent multiple units from firing Overwatch - really dirty versus T’au Yvharra (sp?).
Splitting into individual units (very situational).
Also Allarus synergize with Trajann very well with makes him that much more potent (imo).
Requires the Vexilla Praetor first survive a turn out in the open. Considering that they're a T5 W5 (6) 2+/4++ model... Tough to remove, but hardly impossible. I mean, one good smite can technically achieve it, and on average, it takes only 3 or 4 Smite attempts to kill them. If you're facing, say, Marines with a couple Librarians, Guard with a few Psykers, Chaos with anything but Khorne... That trick will fail. Plus, that's a Turn 2 charge at the earliest. You know what else has a guaranteed Turn 2 charge? Vertus Praetors, since they can move up to 28" in that time. Also, this trick requires a whopping 3 command points.
Works on a max of one unit per Allarus-so, to prevent, say, 4 units from Overwatching, you'd need to spend 336 points and a command point. And, since you bring up Tau, you know what's a better defense against S5 guns than spending a command point to shut down overwatch? Being T6, like Vertus Praetors are. That's a 33% reduction in damage across the board.
You yourself note that this (2 command point, by the way) stratagem is situational. Because it is. It also weakens your other Allarus Stratagems, since now it only affects one at a time.
And you'll note that I recently did some math. Scroll up, go ahead, it's there. And it shows that Vertus Praetors with a Captain on Dawneagle outperform Allarus with Trajaan by a pretty significant margin-for just 6 points more.
WindstormSCR wrote: Vexilla Teleport homer and Praetorian plate are the best way to make use of a large group of allarus terminators.
Coming in from deep strike from the Vexilla Praetor in guaranteed charge range.
Using Balistus grenade launchers to prevent multiple units from firing Overwatch - really dirty versus T’au Yvharra (sp?).
Splitting into individual units (very situational).
Also Allarus synergize with Trajann very well with makes him that much more potent (imo).
Requires the Vexilla Praetor first survive a turn out in the open. Considering that they're a T5 W5 (6) 2+/4++ model... Tough to remove, but hardly impossible. I mean, one good smite can technically achieve it, and on average, it takes only 3 or 4 Smite attempts to kill them. If you're facing, say, Marines with a couple Librarians, Guard with a few Psykers, Chaos with anything but Khorne... That trick will fail. Plus, that's a Turn 2 charge at the earliest. You know what else has a guaranteed Turn 2 charge? Vertus Praetors, since they can move up to 28" in that time. Also, this trick requires a whopping 3 command points.
Works on a max of one unit per Allarus-so, to prevent, say, 4 units from Overwatching, you'd need to spend 336 points and a command point. And, since you bring up Tau, you know what's a better defense against S5 guns than spending a command point to shut down overwatch? Being T6, like Vertus Praetors are. That's a 33% reduction in damage across the board.
You yourself note that this (2 command point, by the way) stratagem is situational. Because it is. It also weakens your other Allarus Stratagems, since now it only affects one at a time.
And you'll note that I recently did some math. Scroll up, go ahead, it's there. And it shows that Vertus Praetors with a Captain on Dawneagle outperform Allarus with Trajaan by a pretty significant margin-for just 6 points more.
WindstormSCR wrote: Vexilla Teleport homer and Praetorian plate are the best way to make use of a large group of allarus terminators.
Wouldn't that take 6 Command Points? 3 for Swooping Dive, 3 for summoning the Allarus? And your sole Relic, unless you want to up that to 7 CP?
yep, but such is the price for getting a lot of points worth of stuff into a decent combat. consider that in using those 6cp you can often get a large unit of terminators in behind a screen the expenditure starts to make more sense.
Just fought Mortarion with Custodes for the first time. I think we talked about him before, but boy does this guy hurt. He got the charge off on two units of Custodian Guard (I needed Battalion CP), a Vexilla Praetor and a Shield Captain (note he only completed the charge against half and then got counter charged by the rest). Over 3 rounds of combat he killed almost all of them and only went down to about 50% HP.
Far less damage came from his actual attacks. It was mostly that 7" mortal wounds aura he has. That was averaging a good 6-8 mortal wounds per turn on all units combined.
Head over to www.twitch.tv/glasshammergaming to watch the Custodes take on necrons whilst I also give some tactical isnight during the game. There is also a previous game on the stream where Custodes take on blood angels and sisters which is a very close game!
Primark G wrote: The Vexilla Praetor is a character so you can hide him in the open.
BEHIND other units. In which case, you're not looking at an easy charge.
I had the same discussion with Primark yesterday. Turns out he plays almost exclusively against assault armies so he just puts the Vexilla in his own line and the enemy comes into range to get deepstrike charged.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Audustum wrote: Just fought Mortarion with Custodes for the first time. I think we talked about him before, but boy does this guy hurt. He got the charge off on two units of Custodian Guard (I needed Battalion CP), a Vexilla Praetor and a Shield Captain (note he only completed the charge against half and then got counter charged by the rest). Over 3 rounds of combat he killed almost all of them and only went down to about 50% HP.
Far less damage came from his actual attacks. It was mostly that 7" mortal wounds aura he has. That was averaging a good 6-8 mortal wounds per turn on all units combined.
When facing Mortarion you need to overwhelm him. Don't fight him with 5 Custodes, fight him with 15 (or more). As you noticed he needs to die in 1 turn.
I played against all kinds of armies not just melee armies. I do play against armies that are heavy melee oriented though... Chaos, Nidz, etc... these are common to most any meta.
Primark G wrote: The Vexilla Praetor is a character so you can hide him in the open.
BEHIND other units. In which case, you're not looking at an easy charge.
I had the same discussion with Primark yesterday. Turns out he plays almost exclusively against assault armies so he just puts the Vexilla in his own line and the enemy comes into range to get deepstrike charged.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Audustum wrote: Just fought Mortarion with Custodes for the first time. I think we talked about him before, but boy does this guy hurt. He got the charge off on two units of Custodian Guard (I needed Battalion CP), a Vexilla Praetor and a Shield Captain (note he only completed the charge against half and then got counter charged by the rest). Over 3 rounds of combat he killed almost all of them and only went down to about 50% HP.
Far less damage came from his actual attacks. It was mostly that 7" mortal wounds aura he has. That was averaging a good 6-8 mortal wounds per turn on all units combined.
When facing Mortarion you need to overwhelm him. Don't fight him with 5 Custodes, fight him with 15 (or more). As you noticed he needs to die in 1 turn.
Oh I know, but we were playing some local tournament's homebrew missions with progressive scoring per turn. End result being that I couldn't concentrate anymore units without just losing on primary objective points.
