NinthMusketeer wrote: So getting into the Seraphon book; new fluff is good. The whole 'remembering' thing is gone and what's replaced it has more nuance and WAY more personality. I was not particularly bothered by the 1st edition fluff and generally abhor re-cons, but this was a good move in my eyes. It was both appropriate and artfully done by rolling the re-done older fluff into being legends and misconceptions. I have not gotten into unit details yet but still credit where credit is due to GW fluff writers for vastly improving things.
Matched play is totally imbalanced but it does open up a lot of options for casual players where before Seraphon were largely non-viable outside a narrow range of game breaking gimmicks. So, unlike the fluff, I would not say the battletome is good in a matched play sense but it IS a significant improvement.
I disagree on your second point. The book is very Synergetic and lives or dies by being able to buff your units with heros. There's also a lot of utility present, where you can refocus your pushing power. If the whole summoning points question is clarified then we can declare summoning either dead in the water or a decent utility tool that's been scaled back reasonably.
As it stands, this book is going to see lots of play with many different viable builds. It's going to surprise a lot of people in the meta.
Whoops, I phrased that incorrectly. Will edit to make my meaning clear.
Edit: Fixed. What I meant to say is that it was not good quality of design; the battletome will be plenty good in performance. I expect them to be tier 1 when properly optimized, even.
Fair enough. Will definitely have to see as time goes on, considering the MW output and a lot of the durability that comes built into some army builds.
Dread Master wrote: There is nothing about the floating mage that says “female” to me. Looks like a dude. And I’m guessing that given the mage is an adept sporting the mountain rune, further supports that assumption, as the qualities of the mountain are distinctly masculine.
Funny you should say that, as "mountain" is a female noun in spanish.
Ever heard of 'Grand Teton' and the Teton mountain in the US west? Ever looked up the meaning of them name? Mountains aren't entirely masculine or feminine...
Which having different tastes and preferences is fine. I just don't think there is much to be gained dropping posts like '3-stringed bows look like crap.' end post. There is a good deal of things in Age of Sigmar that don't suit my tastes and preferences. At least locally, more than a few people do like those things. So I am not going to make comments the are little more than getting something off my chest. It doesn't make them feel good about what they like and doesn't change the fact that it exists. I see that as a lose-lose.
It isn't about getting something off one's chest, but rather the dismay of seeing how bad GW have become. Pandering to this type of 'fantasy', is akin to picking low hanging fruit. Easy and requires little effort. Before GW's WFB range could pride it self on having an internal logic. The models were good reflections of the madness which was spreading throughout the Warhammer World. It had a variety of degrees as well, the Empire Fanatics were a different side of the coin to say the Chaos stuff. Where as the Bretonnian range saw the madness take feudalism to the extreme, for the High Elves it was to be ever focused on their faded glory and not being able to reconcile themselves with their decline.
If GW had of kept the previous miniature lines along side Age of Sigmar, it would be fine. As people would have a choice to buy which they prefer. For those of us who have played Warhammer for over 30 years, it is still painful to see something we grew up with being thrown under the bus for the likes of 3 string bow, Eel riding Elves on land, skeletons that are built like a brick excrement house and have a bone nose... Etc.
For those of us who have played Warhammer for over 30 years, it is still painful to see something we grew up with being thrown under the bus for the likes of 3 string bow, Eel riding Elves on land, skeletons that are built like a brick excrement house and have a bone nose... Etc.
I'm sorry Stonehorse but thats a ton of made up excuses to put on a pedestal something that has no intrinsic superior value to the new choices that GW made.
And I prefer WFB style to AOS. But I like both good enough.
Ask any historical fan or hardcore fantasy fan from some of the better fantasy universes, about their opinion on WFB and it won't be any better than generic troped-based fantasy.
Theres a ton of nostalgia in your opinion presented as some kind of fact or objetive reality, with very nice words that in the end mean nothing. (Tell me wheres the decline on high elf spearmen with potato hands or sisters of averlon?)
I mean. Pandering to this kind of fantasy is low hanging fruit but WFB wasn't in his prime?
I absolutely love all the bizarre over the top nonsense of AOS. It is surreal and fun. However, I did also like the more grounded and 'realistic' grittyness of FB, though it really had started to move away from it long time before the end times. And weirdly enough, I think these two themes, gritty grimdarkness and surreal over the top fantasy, could be combined and by doing so strengthen both. AOS needs some rat catchers, it needs people who shovel the hippogryph poop off from the flying citadel. Sure, the remnants of the Empire range are there for that, but they aren't integrated well, they would have benefited some AOSy additions that tie them to the setting better,
TBH Warhammer has spent more time being over the top nonsense than realistic grittyness.
I mean. 1-4 editions and 8th and AoS vs basically 5th-7th.
Thats something I always find funny when 5th-7th fans of WFB call AoS all kind of names when you have the oldhammer group and fans of 1st-3rd editions having the same opinion about 5th-7th, how GW lost their way, the game changed in something unrecognisable, etc...
Galas wrote: I'm sorry Stonehorse but thats a ton of made up excuses to put on a pedestal something that has no intrinsic superior value to the new choices that GW made.
And I prefer WFB style to AOS. But I like both good enough.
Ask any historical fan or hardcore fantasy fan from some of the better fantasy universes, about their opinion on WFB and it won't be any better than generic troped-based fantasy.
Theres a ton of nostalgia in your opinion presented as some kind of fact or objetive reality, with very nice words that in the end mean nothing.
I play historical (Late medieval and Napoleonic), so not sure what point you are trying to make there.
Yes WFB played on tropes, however those tropes were infused with real world ideas and/or cultures. The people who designed the forces/models/background at the time were fans of history and world mythology, and it showed in the game. One could look at say The Beastmen, and see the influence of fairytales, and the Germanic way of war that was encountered by the Romans (Gav Thorpe who wrote their army book even went as far to say such in an old White Dwarf). So yes, it may have had tropes... bit those tropes where infused with things that were very real.
Age of Sigmar, has little to any of that real world influence. The only one that comes to mind are the Daughters of Khaine, they have a lot of Greek Mythology in there.
Galas wrote: TBH Warhammer has spent more time being over the top nonsense than realistic grittyness.
I mean. 1-4 editions and 8th and AoS vs basically 5th-7th.
Thats something I always find funny when 5th-7th fans of WFB call AoS all kind of names when you have the oldhammer group and fans of 1st-3rd editions having the same opinion about 5th-7th, how GW lost their way, the game changed in something unrecognisable, etc...
Galas wrote: I'm sorry Stonehorse but thats a ton of made up excuses to put on a pedestal something that has no intrinsic superior value to the new choices that GW made.
And I prefer WFB style to AOS. But I like both good enough.
Ask any historical fan or hardcore fantasy fan from some of the better fantasy universes, about their opinion on WFB and it won't be any better than generic troped-based fantasy.
Theres a ton of nostalgia in your opinion presented as some kind of fact or objetive reality, with very nice words that in the end mean nothing.
I play historical (Late medieval and Napoleonic), so not sure what point you are trying to make there.
Yes WFB played on tropes, however those tropes were infused with real world ideas and/or cultures. The people who designed the forces/models/background at the time were fans of history and world mythology, and it showed in the game. One could look at say The Beastmen, and see the influence of fairytales, and the Germanic way of war that was encountered by the Romans (Gav Thorpe who wrote their army book even went as far to say such in an old White Dwarf). So yes, it may have had tropes... bit those tropes where infused with things that were very real.
Age of Sigmar, has little to any of that real world influence. The only one that comes to mind are the Daughters of Khaine, they have a lot of Greek Mythology in there.
That has nothing to do with Warhammer and everything to do with the fact that Citadel started selling historical miniatures and then started writting a background for those armies. Thats why you have bretonnia, norsca, araby, estalia, tilea, the empire, and they started being basically just historical armies and became more fantastic as time pased. Armies like Araby and Norsca felt on the wayside in favour of more fantastical ones, of course. And if you believe that AoS takes no inspiration from real world you are mistaken basically because everything takes inspiration from the real world and cultures, we don't have anything more to compare too. But I admit is less obvious than mesoamerican lizardmen riding dinosaurs.
And I'll reiterate that I actually prefer WFB to AoS but I always find asisine the ton of excuses than exist for the WFB group to try and present AoS as an inferior product than what it is. I mean, yeah at launch it sucked at every level, fluff and rules. But oh boy how it has changed and improved in just 3 years. Imagine it 5 years down the line. WFB had 30 odd years to improve, become more dept, be refined, etc... and the rhythm that AoS has is MUCH faster than WFB had back on his beginnings (Also because GW is much bigger now but you can understand me)
Galas wrote: TBH Warhammer has spent more time being over the top nonsense than realistic grittyness.
I mean. 1-4 editions and 8th and AoS vs basically 5th-7th.
Thats something I always find funny when 5th-7th fans of WFB call AoS all kind of names when you have the oldhammer group and fans of 1st-3rd editions having the same opinion about 5th-7th, how GW lost their way, the game changed in something unrecognisable, etc...
Yup, people tend to see their own "golden times" in Warhammer as representative for the brand as a whole. For me, it's 6th-7th edition and thus I'm not particularly happy with the current design direction of AoS. We just have to keep in mind that all of this is very much subjective.
For those of us who have played Warhammer for over 30 years, it is still painful to see something we grew up with being thrown under the bus for the likes of 3 string bow, Eel riding Elves on land, skeletons that are built like a brick excrement house and have a bone nose... Etc.
For those of us who have played Warhammer for over 30 years, it is still painful to see something we grew up with being thrown under the bus for the likes of 3 string bow, Eel riding Elves on land, skeletons that are built like a brick excrement house and have a bone nose... Etc.
Speak for yourself.
Agreed.
Getting back into its after leaving in 5th edition. I like the oldschool stuff, but so many new models have great nostalgic vibes. Plus the details possible now are so much better than the old plastics.
For those of us who have played Warhammer for over 30 years, it is still painful to see something we grew up with being thrown under the bus for the likes of 3 string bow, Eel riding Elves on land, skeletons that are built like a brick excrement house and have a bone nose... Etc.
Speak for yourself.
Agreed - I have played every edition and still enjoy the lore of both the Old World and the Mortal Realms
Ever heard of 'Grand Teton' and the Teton mountain in the US west? Ever looked up the meaning of them name? Mountains aren't entirely masculine or feminine...
I was speaking about the qualities that define mountains. In hermetic philosophy, they are masculine qualities.
MonkeyBallistic wrote: When it comes to AoS vs WFB, it’s possible to dislike them both. I do
Without any sort of snark, I am genuinely interested in your reasons for posting in AoS threads, if that is the case.
That’s a fair question. I’ll give you an honest answer.
I’ve genuinely tried to like AoS, bought both big starter sets and a couple of Battletomes, but the lore just leaves me cold and the game doesn’t appeal. I do however like some of the models. I’m always on the lookout for interesting minis and bits that I can use to make 40k minis, so I take an interest in all of GW’s model releases, regardless of the game they’re for.
For those of us who have played Warhammer for over 30 years, it is still painful to see something we grew up with being thrown under the bus for the likes of 3 string bow, Eel riding Elves on land, skeletons that are built like a brick excrement house and have a bone nose... Etc.
Speak for yourself.
Agreed.
Getting back into its after leaving in 5th edition. I like the oldschool stuff, but so many new models have great nostalgic vibes. Plus the details possible now are so much better than the old plastics.
Galas wrote: And if you believe that AoS takes no inspiration from real world you are mistaken basically because everything takes inspiration from the real world and cultures, we don't have anything more to compare too.
That real world recognition and inspiration is missing from Age of Sigmar. I look at the Kharadron Overlords, and it leaves me cold. The old WFB races were a way to hook people into real life history, for a lot of people it was the spring board that got them into history. I used to work for GW, and a lot of the kids asked about the inspiration from the races. I really can't see that being possible with Age of Sigmar... GW have deliberately designed it so that it is a unique IP and not easy to replicate or reproduce to stop third parties... before anyone who want to play Empire or Bretonnians had a wealth of historical kits to choose from.
They are more subtle and less 'X race wearing Y culture' which is also something many people wanted. I love that they have created unique aesthetics for different races instead of simply copying real-world ones. It is much more difficult and -to me- the effort really pays off with armies that look better.
Galas wrote: And if you believe that AoS takes no inspiration from real world you are mistaken basically because everything takes inspiration from the real world and cultures, we don't have anything more to compare too.
That real world recognition and inspiration is missing from Age of Sigmar. I look at the Kharadron Overlords, and it leaves me cold. The old WFB races were a way to hook people into real life history, for a lot of people it was the spring board that got them into history. I used to work for GW, and a lot of the kids asked about the inspiration from the races. I really can't see that being possible with Age of Sigmar... GW have deliberately designed it so that it is a unique IP and not easy to replicate or reproduce to stop third parties... before anyone who want to play Empire or Bretonnians had a wealth of historical kits to choose from.
So you prefer lazy copypaste? I'm pretty done with that type of fantasy cultures, unless the setting is explicitly some sort of parallel/weird history one. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the Empire with their crazy landsknecht couture, but you could combine that with some other cultural influences and fantasy elements to create something even more unique. Creating interesting fantasy civilisations with their own style and material culture is really difficult, and I appreciate that GW is doing that now. And it still requires taking inspiration from real world, it just is more subtle. For example the Lumineth seem to blend the ancient Greek and Chinese influences with fantasy elements.
NinthMusketeer wrote: They are more subtle and less 'X race wearing Y culture' which is also something many people wanted. I love that they have created unique aesthetics for different races instead of simply copying real-world ones. It is much more difficult and -to me- the effort really pays off with armies that look better.
This. In WFB, the inspiration came in the form of "The Empire is literally just the HRE with griffins and" In AoS, the inspiration is in the form of "Idoneth Deepkin are a Japanese woodblock painting come to life."
Galas wrote: And if you believe that AoS takes no inspiration from real world you are mistaken basically because everything takes inspiration from the real world and cultures, we don't have anything more to compare too.
That real world recognition and inspiration is missing from Age of Sigmar. I look at the Kharadron Overlords, and it leaves me cold. The old WFB races were a way to hook people into real life history, for a lot of people it was the spring board that got them into history. I used to work for GW, and a lot of the kids asked about the inspiration from the races. I really can't see that being possible with Age of Sigmar... GW have deliberately designed it so that it is a unique IP and not easy to replicate or reproduce to stop third parties... before anyone who want to play Empire or Bretonnians had a wealth of historical kits to choose from.
So you prefer lazy copypaste? I'm pretty done with that type of fantasy cultures, unless the setting is explicitly some sort of parallel/weird history one. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the Empire with their crazy landsknecht couture, but you could combine that with some other cultural influences and fantasy elements to create something even more unique. Creating interesting fantasy civilisations with their own style and material culture is really difficult, and I appreciate that GW is doing that now. And it still requires taking inspiration from real world, it just is more subtle. For example the Lumineth seem to blend the ancient Greek and Chinese influences with fantasy elements.
Oh, I agree. I’d much rather see something unique. The biggest problem I have with AoS though is that I don’t believe that these cultures coexist. They too often come across as a random mishmash of cool ideas, but with no coherent, unifying theme to convince me that the Mortal Realms is a real place.
The best comparison I can make is with the old D&D campaign setting Planescape. That had a similar setup of various planes of existence, inhabited by everything from Norse Gods to living polyhedra. Yet it managed to feel like a real place where people actually lived. It achieved this in part because it took the time from the outset to detail the lives of ordinary people in the planes. Perhaps more importantly though, it unified these disparate elements through a unique, distinctive art style which made you believe that these wildly varying races and cultures did actually rub shoulders in the same setting.
In my mind, AoS utterly fails on this count. There is nothing about, say, Kharadron Overlords or Daughters of Khaine (or any two other random armies) that gives any feeling that they are part of the same setting. Individual models may look great and the art is often excellent, but nothing either sets them apart stylistically from other fantasy art or serves to unify them as a believable world. I’m left feeling that AoS is less than the sum of its parts.
K Overlords are actually (IMO) well written developments of the Dwarf race from WFB who we already moving (very slowly) towards the next level of technology.
I like that they are pragmatic but curious, rule bound but not completly anti-inovation.
The Daughters of Khaine have got some interesting story elements - like other the "Dark Elfs" in the Alliance of Order they retain their darker side but temper it somewhat when around the Sigmarites, they are also an insideous element with that society working towards their own goals.
Dwarves in the Old World were actually KO advanced long before, however when their society crumbled and fell they ended up splintering into guilds and the engineers guild basically put a huge ban on whole segments of technology. I suspect to prevent it getting into the hands of others whilst their people were in a weakened state. And dwarves being dwarves once it was set in stone in a book it stuck.
In the Gotrek and Felix stories one dwarven engineer rebels and builds a huge airship. Granted its more base gases than the strange orbs that the KO use; but it showed that the dwarves of that world could have advanced far further.
So yes the KO are quite a natural evolution of the old world dwarves without technological restrictions holding them back.
Daughters of Khaine I really wish would get fleshed out more; though they get one big bonus in that one of their people now appears to be quite firmly Gotrek's current companion. I think they are very three tier faction from what I can see in terms of the regular peoples and then the "cult" within their own ranks; followed up by Morathi and her creations on top of it all (and in the shadows).
They also seem to shift a bit depending on the writer from "Amazonian" style warrioresses and society; and a blood/torture/twisted cult.
Oh, I agree. I’d much rather see something unique. The biggest problem I have with AoS though is that I don’t believe that these cultures coexist. They too often come across as a random mishmash of cool ideas, but with no coherent, unifying theme to convince me that the Mortal Realms is a real place.
The best comparison I can make is with the old D&D campaign setting Planescape. That had a similar setup of various planes of existence, inhabited by everything from Norse Gods to living polyhedra. Yet it managed to feel like a real place where people actually lived. It achieved this in part because it took the time from the outset to detail the lives of ordinary people in the planes. Perhaps more importantly though, it unified these disparate elements through a unique, distinctive art style which made you believe that these wildly varying races and cultures did actually rub shoulders in the same setting.
In my mind, AoS utterly fails on this count. There is nothing about, say, Kharadron Overlords or Daughters of Khaine (or any two other random armies) that gives any feeling that they are part of the same setting. Individual models may look great and the art is often excellent, but nothing either sets them apart stylistically from other fantasy art or serves to unify them as a believable world. I’m left feeling that AoS is less than the sum of its parts.
I don't think that the lack of cohesion and 'realness' has much to do with the visual them of the factions. It is due the lack of connective tissue. There simply isn't enough of the 'world' that would tie them together. The setting is just so big and amorphous and the information is scattered.
Overread wrote: Dwarves in the Old World were actually KO advanced long before, however when their society crumbled and fell they ended up splintering into guilds and the engineers guild basically put a huge ban on whole segments of technology. I suspect to prevent it getting into the hands of others whilst their people were in a weakened state. And dwarves being dwarves once it was set in stone in a book it stuck.
In the Gotrek and Felix stories one dwarven engineer rebels and builds a huge airship. Granted its more base gases than the strange orbs that the KO use; but it showed that the dwarves of that world could have advanced far further.
So yes the KO are quite a natural evolution of the old world dwarves without technological restrictions holding them back.
Daughters of Khaine I really wish would get fleshed out more; though they get one big bonus in that one of their people now appears to be quite firmly Gotrek's current companion. I think they are very three tier faction from what I can see in terms of the regular peoples and then the "cult" within their own ranks; followed up by Morathi and her creations on top of it all (and in the shadows).
They also seem to shift a bit depending on the writer from "Amazonian" style warrioresses and society; and a blood/torture/twisted cult.
Indeed there are a number of the novels where Dwarf tech is highly advanced but is got rid of in the same book usually to stop other races (especialyl Skaven) getting hold of it - Thanquol has Dwarf steam powered Sentry Guns and wonder metals for instance
Malenth is a great character but does suffer from different people depicting her differently - still had some interesting insights into The Daughters through her and also the recent short story about the Temple of Serpents and how they help you...... Similar the Arika Zenth stories put some flesh on the Scourge faction.
The Daughters definately have levels or tiers and also have their public face.
I think the only Gotrek story that stands out at present is the Bone Dessert one. Mostly because they seem to soften toward each other come the end, but we don't tend to see that relationship reciprocated in any of the others.
The only other part of her that seems to vary is the degree to which she talks too and relies on her blood amulet and the "soul fragment/whatever" within it.
Otherwise she's "fairly" stable as a character. Not quite as stable as Felix was, but then again she's dealing with some conflicting emotions and thoughts.
Overread wrote: I think the only Gotrek story that stands out at present is the Bone Dessert one. Mostly because they seem to soften toward each other come the end, but we don't tend to see that relationship reciprocated in any of the others.
The only other part of her that seems to vary is the degree to which she talks too and relies on her blood amulet and the "soul fragment/whatever" within it.
Otherwise she's "fairly" stable as a character. Not quite as stable as Felix was, but then again she's dealing with some conflicting emotions and thoughts.
Yeah I really enjoyed the Bone Desert but the author does not seem to be the one being asked to write her/them.
I'd like to see Gotrek come out of his shell a bit. In Ghoulslayer it suffered a little because he, at present, has a very one-dimensional focus. Granted in the original stories that was very true too, however now he's free from seeking his doom (sort of - he's still a slayer at heart) he's sort of got room to not so much grow but reveal himself a bit more.
We see hints here and there, but I don't think we'll see proper settled growth until he's got a fixed author for a few linked and confirmed publications to give him room to develop and evolve a bit.
Will we? I fear Gotrek is a fully flanderized corporate machine like 40k imperial heros. He will forever be reduced to unlikeable grump who complains about the mortal realms. Just give mommy Maleneth her own book series and be done with it, she's clearly the more entertaining of the two, and it spares us the cringy "we had to super-sayian Gotrek to give him a chance in the realms" plot device.
Cronch wrote: Just give mommy Maleneth her own book series and be done with it, she's clearly the more entertaining of the two, and it spares us the cringy "we had to super-sayian Gotrek to give him a chance in the realms" plot device.
The book would likely be just a list of things that give her a headache.
Mr Morden wrote: K Overlords are actually (IMO) well written developments of the Dwarf race from WFB who we already moving (very slowly) towards the next level of technology.
I like that they are pragmatic but curious, rule bound but not completly anti-inovation.
The Daughters of Khaine have got some interesting story elements - like other the "Dark Elfs" in the Alliance of Order they retain their darker side but temper it somewhat when around the Sigmarites, they are also an insideous element with that society working towards their own goals.
I like Kharadrons but I can't help but think I'd like them much more without aether-gold. It sounds silly to me like most of their recently made up names and chasing after random magic deposits seems weird. I'd be much happier if they pursued more common metals and used runes for the magic part of their ships.
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Cronch wrote: Will we? I fear Gotrek is a fully flanderized corporate machine like 40k imperial heros. He will forever be reduced to unlikeable grump who complains about the mortal realms. Just give mommy Maleneth her own book series and be done with it, she's clearly the more entertaining of the two, and it spares us the cringy "we had to super-sayian Gotrek to give him a chance in the realms" plot device.
I mean, I like the fact that their whole civilization is based on one fuel source that is also used to make products, and it'd literally collapse if it'd run out, but they make no efforts to stop, being entirely addicted to it as a culture. It's so out there!
Cronch wrote: I mean, I like the fact that their whole civilization is based on one fuel source that is also used to make products, and it'd literally collapse if it'd run out, but they make no efforts to stop, being entirely addicted to it as a culture. It's so out there!
Yet sounds SO familiar, could they have copied it from another setting? Of course I say setting, since such foolishness is clearly limited to the fictional.
The problem with common metals is that GW made a whole REALM of metal. Gold, silver, heck there's a flowing river of molten silver etc....
Of realms it and the Realm of Death are curious and tricky things to wrap peoples heads around functionally. With the Realm of Metals you create a realm where basically every resource we are used to being limited is now highly abundant and plentiful. Provided you've got mines there you can extract the best metals for any need - any war-machine has basically near limitless resources to function. A big thing to consider when your nations are starting to play with steam machines and mechanics.
Meanwhile the Realm of Death is populate by all the dead - ALL the Dead. Suddenly you've got a near limitless army that can war on any other and never technically lose. Of course Nagash still hasn't secured all the realms of Death within Death and its internal structure sounds a bit crazy/loose in terms of how different lands within the realm are created from the belief and afterlife of different host nations.
That is coupled with resources normally common being comparatively rare, too. It creates a very interesting if somewhat challenging writing opportunity and I am really excited to see where the setting goes. The new Seraphon fluff being (imo) such a massive improvement really feeds my optimism.
Also note Shyish doesn't have all the dead, probably not even the majority. Anyone devoted to Chaos has their soul go to them, factions like Sylvaneth and Idoneth have found ways to 'keep their souls in-faction' so to speak, and so on.
Ahh true, though it was interesting to me to note that the Skaven do have an underworld in the Realm of the Dead - one which I suspect Nagash will never conquer.
Overread wrote: The problem with common metals is that GW made a whole REALM of metal. Gold, silver, heck there's a flowing river of molten silver etc....
Of realms it and the Realm of Death are curious and tricky things to wrap peoples heads around functionally. With the Realm of Metals you create a realm where basically every resource we are used to being limited is now highly abundant and plentiful. Provided you've got mines there you can extract the best metals for any need - any war-machine has basically near limitless resources to function. A big thing to consider when your nations are starting to play with steam machines and mechanics.
Meanwhile the Realm of Death is populate by all the dead - ALL the Dead. Suddenly you've got a near limitless army that can war on any other and never technically lose. Of course Nagash still hasn't secured all the realms of Death within Death and its internal structure sounds a bit crazy/loose in terms of how different lands within the realm are created from the belief and afterlife of different host nations.
But apparently most of the Realms are normal. At least that's what I've been told. So you replace searching for weird magic metal gas with expeditions to weird magic lands where things like winds hurl shrapnel at you.
AoS seems to have veered one way at the start then had a hasty course correction a different way shortly after. Which to be honest I like because the very start of AoS was a train wreck.
Overread wrote: The problem with common metals is that GW made a whole REALM of metal. Gold, silver, heck there's a flowing river of molten silver etc....
Of realms it and the Realm of Death are curious and tricky things to wrap peoples heads around functionally. With the Realm of Metals you create a realm where basically every resource we are used to being limited is now highly abundant and plentiful. Provided you've got mines there you can extract the best metals for any need - any war-machine has basically near limitless resources to function. A big thing to consider when your nations are starting to play with steam machines and mechanics.
Meanwhile the Realm of Death is populate by all the dead - ALL the Dead. Suddenly you've got a near limitless army that can war on any other and never technically lose. Of course Nagash still hasn't secured all the realms of Death within Death and its internal structure sounds a bit crazy/loose in terms of how different lands within the realm are created from the belief and afterlife of different host nations.
But apparently most of the Realms are normal. At least that's what I've been told. So you replace searching for weird magic metal gas with expeditions to weird magic lands where things like winds hurl shrapnel at you.
AoS seems to have veered one way at the start then had a hasty course correction a different way shortly after. Which to be honest I like because the very start of AoS was a train wreck.
The current fluff states that each realm is still growing. The inner lands of the realms (i.e., the oldest part of each realm) are mostly stable, whereas the closer you get to the edge of the realm the more unstable it is and the more likely you are to see things like winds that hurl shrapnel, etc.
Overread wrote: The problem with common metals is that GW made a whole REALM of metal. Gold, silver, heck there's a flowing river of molten silver etc....
Of realms it and the Realm of Death are curious and tricky things to wrap peoples heads around functionally. With the Realm of Metals you create a realm where basically every resource we are used to being limited is now highly abundant and plentiful. Provided you've got mines there you can extract the best metals for any need - any war-machine has basically near limitless resources to function. A big thing to consider when your nations are starting to play with steam machines and mechanics.
Meanwhile the Realm of Death is populate by all the dead - ALL the Dead. Suddenly you've got a near limitless army that can war on any other and never technically lose. Of course Nagash still hasn't secured all the realms of Death within Death and its internal structure sounds a bit crazy/loose in terms of how different lands within the realm are created from the belief and afterlife of different host nations.
But apparently most of the Realms are normal. At least that's what I've been told. So you replace searching for weird magic metal gas with expeditions to weird magic lands where things like winds hurl shrapnel at you.
AoS seems to have veered one way at the start then had a hasty course correction a different way shortly after. Which to be honest I like because the very start of AoS was a train wreck.
I think you have two good points here--the areas with huge amounts of resources are also likely to be massively hazardous, and that GW has done a course correction with AoS.
I'm a big fan of beige stone buildings, but when it comes to a favorite from the article I actually like the style and color choices of the following one best, even if it's just grey:
Voss wrote: That was a waste of a biweekly update.
New elf society is a generic elf in decline society, and ruins are generally symbolic of symbolism. See you next time!
Showing the models atop of these fabulous ruins also demonstrates that they are entering a new era where they must rebuild these grand structures – and in doing so rebuild their once-great culture and society.
Does seem to be much more optimistic/post-fall than that. They're done falling, now they want to get up again.
I’m not a fan of models with sculpted ruins like that personally. Also specific enemy casualties. They can interfere with your own basing scheme. Rocks are less of an issue since you can find rocks most everywhere.
The Lumineth take their strength from the very land of Hysh, and these aelves follow the aspect of the mountain, from which they inherit part of their might and resilience. That incredible centrepiece model is Avalenor, the Stoneheart King. He is the eldest and the wisest of the mountain spirits that march to war with the aelves. Take a closer look at the model that is redefining what it means to be part of an aelf army.
Part mystical creature, part mountain, and it can go toe-to-toe with a Bloodthirster – what more could you ask for? And, of course, we couldn’t have a Warhammer Preview without some actual war hammers. Elves have been part of Warhammer for ages, but they haven’t ever held hammers – until now!
These are the Alarith Stoneguard, the elite infantry of the Lumineth Realm-lords. They fight like immovable objects, wielding magical hammers that crush enemy skulls with a single blow. We hope that you’re ready to start seeing all of your problems as nails.
Cow-rock-spirt and elfs with cow helmets. I did not expect that...an dodged a bullet, because I can't think of anything more absurd than cow-elves.
The cow spirit is actually a good model, if silly, the cow hats are inexcusable.
Those cow mountain spirits are awesome. No lie...I’d love to have those things leading the two types of Phoenixes and Sky-Cutter chariots. And the Spirit of Aenarion model they showed off before that was the best Elven model ever made. Absurd? Possibly. The highest fantasy version of elves ever? Definitely. Way better than classic old high elves that looked more like they escaped from LotR and engaged in copulation with monkeys to gain their hands.
Cronch wrote: Cow-rock-spirt and elfs with cow helmets. I did not expect that...an dodged a bullet, because I can't think of anything more absurd than cow-elves.
The cow spirit is actually a good model, if silly, the cow hats are inexcusable.
I can't think of a much less Elven weapon than a hammer.
From the way they were explaining it, they don’t swing them wildly like others.
Just used for precision strikes to kill efficiently.
Basically swordmasters but with hammers.
I really love that model - second favourite after the sphinx!
I can also see it being really popular for Slaanesh and Eldar players as conversion material. Heck barring the rock on its shoulders its basically all the way there for a keeper already - throw some claws and stuff on and you could have a great "Armoured" looking Keeper!
I also really like the Scions of the Flame models - I wasn't sure I would from the little previews we'd had and art, but I really do like them. They also sound interesting as for AoS they could be a neat skirmishing/medium ranged unit to throw in at a very cheap price in points.
Overall good reveals! Also in the Luminoth army picture there's another mage hiding in the units!
I wonder if this means we're just getting Earth Elves though. Four lots of a mage, a special unit and a big monster to cover all the elements (plus all the non-elemental stuff) seems like too big of a release.
I still don’t think the ‘rumours’ actually meant she’s an endless spell. It was Atia on the War of Sigmar blog saying ‘I am afraid they are endless spells’ which to me could also just read ‘I’m worried they’re just endless spells’. Unless it’s come from somewhere else as well. I don’t know how much insight Atia even has these days, it’s been a long time since I saw anything actually new from there.
It really just looks like a model, not an endless spell.
Atia has been spot on with stuff for a long time.
To me, one of the few trusted sources.
If that were the case then the wording would be different.
“I’m afraid they are endless spells” - saying they are.
“I’m afraid they might be endless spells” - unsure.
Atia also only tends to post what’s known, rather than ideas or thoughts.
I’d more than happily put money on it being a spell.
Edit: how it looks isn’t really important though in terms of guessing what it is.
Loads of spells look like models or units but aren’t.
Hashut-worshipping elves using hammers? Definitely in line for allies of my Chaos Dwarves.
Everything about those guys shows devotion to the great Taurus-God! All they need is a proper paint scheme in red, black and gold. Maybe some purple for the runes.
DaveC wrote: Army shot from the video to show the war cows in context and size
So apart from the spells or that mage and maybe a terrain piece do we think this is currently it for the range?
They’ve set it up nicely as we seem to have stone spirits this time round so maybe they will expand the range with other units tied to other elements and maybe Tyrion next time they get an update
Mhhhh, that's one spicy Slaanesh Demon Prince. And the infantry will make for great Chaos Warrior substitutes. And I'll need soooooo many of those helmets for my Slaangors.
Jackal90 wrote:Atia has been spot on with stuff for a long time.
To me, one of the few trusted sources.
If that were the case then the wording would be different.
“I’m afraid they are endless spells” - saying they are.
“I’m afraid they might be endless spells” - unsure.
Atia also only tends to post what’s known, rather than ideas or thoughts.
I’d more than happily put money on it being a spell.
Edit: how it looks isn’t really important though in terms of guessing what it is.
Loads of spells look like models or units but aren’t.
ImAGeek wrote:I still don’t think the ‘rumours’ actually meant she’s an endless spell. It was Atia on the War of Sigmar blog saying ‘I am afraid they are endless spells’ which to me could also just read ‘I’m worried they’re just endless spells’. Unless it’s come from somewhere else as well. I don’t know how much insight Atia even has these days, it’s been a long time since I saw anything actually new from there.
It really just looks like a model, not an endless spell.
What Lady Atia said on War of Sigmar was "These look cool but i am afraid these last 3 are in fact Endless spells.". The use of "... in fact..." clinches it for me that she knows and that it is a fact that these are Endless Spells.
Jackal90 wrote:Atia has been spot on with stuff for a long time.
To me, one of the few trusted sources.
If that were the case then the wording would be different.
“I’m afraid they are endless spells” - saying they are.
“I’m afraid they might be endless spells” - unsure.
Atia also only tends to post what’s known, rather than ideas or thoughts.
I’d more than happily put money on it being a spell.
Edit: how it looks isn’t really important though in terms of guessing what it is.
Loads of spells look like models or units but aren’t.
ImAGeek wrote:I still don’t think the ‘rumours’ actually meant she’s an endless spell. It was Atia on the War of Sigmar blog saying ‘I am afraid they are endless spells’ which to me could also just read ‘I’m worried they’re just endless spells’. Unless it’s come from somewhere else as well. I don’t know how much insight Atia even has these days, it’s been a long time since I saw anything actually new from there.
It really just looks like a model, not an endless spell.
What Lady Atia said on War of Sigmar was "These look cool but i am afraid these last 3 are in fact Endless spells.". The use of "... in fact..." clinches it for me that she knows and that it is a fact that these are Endless Spells.
Completely missed that part as I haven’t read it since it was first said, but yea, it does help cement it.
I really don't see how the Bull and hammer is any more absurd for Elves than battleaxes and Celestial Lions from the Old World.
I think some people are just salty that they didn't just recreate the old range of High elves but in the Endless Realms. Other than my sadness of the constant need for each army to have a giant centerpiece model, and my severe dislike of the giant helmet-toppers I think they look cool.
They give me a western asian feel, kind of Indian/Tibet. When was the last time you saw Elves tied to an aesthetic of mountains and Bonsai trees?
Jackal90 wrote:Atia has been spot on with stuff for a long time.
To me, one of the few trusted sources.
If that were the case then the wording would be different.
“I’m afraid they are endless spells” - saying they are.
“I’m afraid they might be endless spells” - unsure.
Atia also only tends to post what’s known, rather than ideas or thoughts.
I’d more than happily put money on it being a spell.
Edit: how it looks isn’t really important though in terms of guessing what it is.
Loads of spells look like models or units but aren’t.
ImAGeek wrote:I still don’t think the ‘rumours’ actually meant she’s an endless spell. It was Atia on the War of Sigmar blog saying ‘I am afraid they are endless spells’ which to me could also just read ‘I’m worried they’re just endless spells’. Unless it’s come from somewhere else as well. I don’t know how much insight Atia even has these days, it’s been a long time since I saw anything actually new from there.
It really just looks like a model, not an endless spell.
What Lady Atia said on War of Sigmar was "These look cool but i am afraid these last 3 are in fact Endless spells.". The use of "... in fact..." clinches it for me that she knows and that it is a fact that these are Endless Spells.
Completely missed that part as I haven’t read it since it was first said, but yea, it does help cement it.
There is one reason to still believe Atia is wrong about those 3 images being Endless Spells.. and that's the fact that the banner among them is clearly the standard of the Stoneguard infantry Elite, and thus that one is certainly not an Endless spell. So I think she could still very much be a character model still, Lumineth are meant to have 4 elemental aspects to their culture and so far only really prominent one they've shown off is the Mountain, nothing about River, Wind or Zephyr yet, so I think she could still be a Wind or River mage sorta person and not an Endless spell.
Jackal90 wrote:Atia has been spot on with stuff for a long time.
To me, one of the few trusted sources.
If that were the case then the wording would be different.
“I’m afraid they are endless spells” - saying they are.
“I’m afraid they might be endless spells” - unsure.
Atia also only tends to post what’s known, rather than ideas or thoughts.
I’d more than happily put money on it being a spell.
Edit: how it looks isn’t really important though in terms of guessing what it is.
Loads of spells look like models or units but aren’t.
ImAGeek wrote:I still don’t think the ‘rumours’ actually meant she’s an endless spell. It was Atia on the War of Sigmar blog saying ‘I am afraid they are endless spells’ which to me could also just read ‘I’m worried they’re just endless spells’. Unless it’s come from somewhere else as well. I don’t know how much insight Atia even has these days, it’s been a long time since I saw anything actually new from there.
It really just looks like a model, not an endless spell.
What Lady Atia said on War of Sigmar was "These look cool but i am afraid these last 3 are in fact Endless spells.". The use of "... in fact..." clinches it for me that she knows and that it is a fact that these are Endless Spells.
Completely missed that part as I haven’t read it since it was first said, but yea, it does help cement it.
There is one reason to still believe Atia is wrong about those 3 images being Endless Spells.. and that's the fact that the banner among them is clearly the standard of the Stoneguard infantry Elite, and thus that one is certainly not an Endless spell. So I think she could still very much be a character model still, Lumineth are meant to have 4 elemental aspects to their culture and so far only really prominent one they've shown off is the Mountain, nothing about River, Wind or Zephyr yet, so I think she could still be a Wind or River mage sorta person and not an Endless spell.
Its kind of weird.
I don't hate the greater cow deamons.
But I'm really drawing a blank on how they *fit* with the army even with bull helmets.
"Paint them the same colour" seems to be doing a lot of heavy lifting.
I can't think of a much less Elven weapon than a hammer.
From the way they were explaining it, they don’t swing them wildly like others.
Just used for precision strikes to kill efficiently. Basically swordmasters but with hammers.
Whereas everyone else wielding a hammer is deliberately being inefficient in trying to overcome their opponent?
Elves, to me, have always been summed up by elegance. They can probably wield a hammer more elegantly than any other race, but that is not, at heart, what they are designed for. Moreover, it's a weapon incredibly closely associated with their diametric opposites - Dwarves. It's just plain weird to see hammer elves, whatever half-baked justification the developers have come up with.
In a way its nice to see elves using hammers and not just elegant blades. It's something new and different. Plus in AoS you can bet hammers are likely one of the best weapons to pick.
With all the thick armour and huge beasts around a hammer or mace is likely far superior than a sword. Why slice when you can crush, pummel, buckle and break. Bend and dent the armour in; shatter bone and break past hide.
I'm all for GW giving some elements from the old HE - perhaps eagles for those lofty peaks - or dragons. But giving them these new heavy hitters with hammers is, to me, a nice way for GW to give them their own identity and direction in the game. They are going somewhere new for the aelves.
If you want lithe dancing aelves you've got the Daughters of Khaine who take the elegance and lithe ability to 11. They don't even wear any real armour; they dance out of the way of their opponents blades; darting within their range; slicing and cutting and stabbing and generally murdering with brutal strikes with the accuracy of a surgeon.
The Cowntain reminds me of MTG artwork, especially some of the stranger white mana aligned critters they've designed over the years. It has the air of serenity and the color scheme to match, too.
Agamemnon2 wrote: The Cowntain reminds me of MTG artwork, especially some of the stranger white mana aligned critters they've designed over the years. It has the air of serenity and the color scheme to match, too.
You know, now that you say it I totally see the image.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
CthuluIsSpy wrote: The cow-man reminds me of Warcraft.
Warcraft started off as a knock-off / homage to Warhammer, which means we've come full circle.
Now all we need is for Blizzard to be inspired by Age of Sigmar, and we'll be a step closer to a perpetual motion engine
Late to the party mate, Warhammer and Warcraft have been taking inspiration off one another for decades. That full circle has gone around many times over.
Slaanesh has long had certain elf-like aspects and strong ties to elves (or space elves) in the fluff, so it is appropriate that there is a certain similarity.
I can't think of a much less Elven weapon than a hammer.
From the way they were explaining it, they don’t swing them wildly like others.
Just used for precision strikes to kill efficiently. Basically swordmasters but with hammers.
Whereas everyone else wielding a hammer is deliberately being inefficient in trying to overcome their opponent?
Elves, to me, have always been summed up by elegance. They can probably wield a hammer more elegantly than any other race, but that is not, at heart, what they are designed for. Moreover, it's a weapon incredibly closely associated with their diametric opposites - Dwarves. It's just plain weird to see hammer elves, whatever half-baked justification the developers have come up with.
No, there’s a difference to swinging a weapon around like a mad man and making timed, precise strikes.
Also, I agree, it’s not that fitting and the actual hammers to me look just plain weird.
I’d have rather seen them with cavalry style hammers as they are far smaller.
I can't think of a much less Elven weapon than a hammer.
From the way they were explaining it, they don’t swing them wildly like others.
Just used for precision strikes to kill efficiently. Basically swordmasters but with hammers.
Whereas everyone else wielding a hammer is deliberately being inefficient in trying to overcome their opponent?
Elves, to me, have always been summed up by elegance. They can probably wield a hammer more elegantly than any other race
Actually, they'd struggle to wield them at all, let alone elegantly. Even if they were strong enough to heft them in the first place (doubtful), it wouldn't matter because the first time they tried to swing them they'd have to make a choice between letting go or maintaining their grip and being thrown flat on their face.
I can't think of a much less Elven weapon than a hammer.
From the way they were explaining it, they don’t swing them wildly like others.
Just used for precision strikes to kill efficiently. Basically swordmasters but with hammers.
Whereas everyone else wielding a hammer is deliberately being inefficient in trying to overcome their opponent?
Elves, to me, have always been summed up by elegance. They can probably wield a hammer more elegantly than any other race
Actually, they'd struggle to wield them at all, let alone elegantly. Even if they were strong enough to heft them in the first place (doubtful), it wouldn't matter because the first time they tried to swing them they'd have to make a choice between letting go or maintaining their grip and being thrown flat on their face.
These guys are apparently infused with the power of the mountains (lesser extent of the battle cattle) so that may make it easier for them.
I’d still rather a small cavalry hammer though if they needed hammers.
These guys are apparently infused with the power of the mountains (lesser extent of the battle cattle) so that may make it easier for them.
I’d still rather a small cavalry hammer though if they needed hammers.
I think hammers with more reasonably sized heads would have looked a lot better.
Even for non-Elves, I've never liked the aesthetics of 'giant mallet' weapons.
These guys are apparently infused with the power of the mountains (lesser extent of the battle cattle) so that may make it easier for them.
I’d still rather a small cavalry hammer though if they needed hammers.
I think hammers with more reasonably sized heads would have looked a lot better.
Even for non-Elves, I've never liked the aesthetics of 'giant mallet' weapons.
That’s what’s getting me.
It’s more of a damn mallet lol.
The croquet memes will be floating about soon.
I’d have expected hammers like the old white lions cavalry.
If you have strength infused from a mountain, surely a smaller head on the hammer would produce far more damage.
I really like where the Lumineth are going with these new reveals. The initial stuff seemed kinda a tame kinda usual elf stuff, but this stuff gives them some zazz. I am not looking to start anymore armies for a good long while. However, this faction would be in the running against Ironjaws for me. The best I can hope is someone locally digs them enough to start them up so I can at least play against them.
These guys are apparently infused with the power of the mountains (lesser extent of the battle cattle) so that may make it easier for them.
I’d still rather a small cavalry hammer though if they needed hammers.
I think hammers with more reasonably sized heads would have looked a lot better.
Even for non-Elves, I've never liked the aesthetics of 'giant mallet' weapons.
Same.
A 'warhammer' looks a lot more like a modern hammer for nails (straighten the back and optionally add a spike on top) than a croquet mallet. A large surface area is nigh-useless, and a big head makes it practically unusable.
If you want to break bones, get a mace (woefully under-represented by GW), a warhammer is a compact anti-armor weapon.
These guys are apparently infused with the power of the mountains (lesser extent of the battle cattle) so that may make it easier for them.
I’d still rather a small cavalry hammer though if they needed hammers.
I think hammers with more reasonably sized heads would have looked a lot better.
Even for non-Elves, I've never liked the aesthetics of 'giant mallet' weapons.
Same.
A 'warhammer' looks a lot more like a modern hammer for nails (straighten the back and optionally add a spike on top) than a croquet mallet. A large surface area is nigh-useless, and a big head makes it practically unusable.
If you want to break bones, get a mace (woefully under-represented by GW), a warhammer is a compact anti-armor weapon.
I honestly think that weapon wouldn’t fit any current GW model.
It just looks too comical.
Sure, stormcasts have far larger hammers, but they fit their looks just fine, even if they are near useless for causing damage.
And true, maces cause absurd damage, much like morning stars.
Again, another weapon that GW portrays as fething cannon balls hanging from chains when in reality they were far smaller lol.
These guys are apparently infused with the power of the mountains (lesser extent of the battle cattle) so that may make it easier for them.
I’d still rather a small cavalry hammer though if they needed hammers.
I think hammers with more reasonably sized heads would have looked a lot better.
Even for non-Elves, I've never liked the aesthetics of 'giant mallet' weapons.
Keep in mind the scale of GW miniatures is not true; items like weapons are up-scaled to make their details more apparent and for aesthetics. Note how, bar a few exceptions, weapon proportions in the art are much more reasonable.
These guys are apparently infused with the power of the mountains (lesser extent of the battle cattle) so that may make it easier for them.
I’d still rather a small cavalry hammer though if they needed hammers.
I think hammers with more reasonably sized heads would have looked a lot better.
Even for non-Elves, I've never liked the aesthetics of 'giant mallet' weapons.
That’s what’s getting me.
It’s more of a damn mallet lol.
The croquet memes will be floating about soon.
I’d have expected hammers like the old white lions cavalry.
If you have strength infused from a mountain, surely a smaller head on the hammer would produce far more damage.
Maybe the infused strength is in proportion to the amount of metal involved? I mean I still think something with a shape more like an actual warhammer (or just any other shape, for that matter) would look better, but maybe they at least have an explanation.
These guys are apparently infused with the power of the mountains (lesser extent of the battle cattle) so that may make it easier for them.
I’d still rather a small cavalry hammer though if they needed hammers.
I think hammers with more reasonably sized heads would have looked a lot better.
Even for non-Elves, I've never liked the aesthetics of 'giant mallet' weapons.
Keep in mind the scale of GW miniatures is not true; items like weapons are up-scaled to make their details more apparent and for aesthetics. Note how, bar a few exceptions, weapon proportions in the art are much more reasonable.
It's also practical because we play with models about 1ft or so from us on a table. It's even "worse" for other scales; at 15 mm weapons are massive compared to what they'd really be. Plus things like thickness vary a lot too; swords are super thick because making them the right scale thickness would have them flopping over, falling off out the mould or snapping super easy. I've got some metal models on the table and the swords for them are much thicker than plastic ones, though even the plastic are often still too thick for reality.
These guys are apparently infused with the power of the mountains (lesser extent of the battle cattle) so that may make it easier for them.
I’d still rather a small cavalry hammer though if they needed hammers.
I think hammers with more reasonably sized heads would have looked a lot better.
Even for non-Elves, I've never liked the aesthetics of 'giant mallet' weapons.
Keep in mind the scale of GW miniatures is not true; items like weapons are up-scaled to make their details more apparent and for aesthetics. Note how, bar a few exceptions, weapon proportions in the art are much more reasonable.
It's also practical because we play with models about 1ft or so from us on a table. It's even "worse" for other scales; at 15 mm weapons are massive compared to what they'd really be. Plus things like thickness vary a lot too; swords are super thick because making them the right scale thickness would have them flopping over, falling off out the mould or snapping super easy. I've got some metal models on the table and the swords for them are much thicker than plastic ones, though even the plastic are often still too thick for reality.
It can be done by GW really well too though.
Just take a look at the LoTR range.
Most of their weapons are far more normal and don’t suffer as a result.
These guys are apparently infused with the power of the mountains (lesser extent of the battle cattle) so that may make it easier for them.
I’d still rather a small cavalry hammer though if they needed hammers.
I think hammers with more reasonably sized heads would have looked a lot better.
Even for non-Elves, I've never liked the aesthetics of 'giant mallet' weapons.
Keep in mind the scale of GW miniatures is not true; items like weapons are up-scaled to make their details more apparent and for aesthetics. Note how, bar a few exceptions, weapon proportions in the art are much more reasonable.
Even allowing for heroic scale, they'd still be closer to sledgehammers than warhammers.
If that's what floats your boat, sure. For me, I'm just not a fan of big sledgehammer or mallet weapons - least of all on races like Elves.
For those wanting to know more about the Lumineth's runes/mandala surrounding their elemental spirits.
Each is to be considered separate, so the "Y" is River, the delta/triangle is Mountain, the crescent is Wind, and Zenith is the half-circle with a line.
Interconnection is supposed to represent a 'mastery' of those elements.
Wow, of all the directions I expected the new elfs to go I think "Giant Stone Cow God" was amongst the last. Not my cup of tea but I am still looking forward to getting the empty armour, cavalry and some spearelfs.
As a teenager we used to play terrain croquet on a small hillside with massive threeroots , threes, shrubberies and occasional large boulders. It went on forever as the balls got stuck or rolled away.
So I can totally see how these mountain aelf and sprits like those kind of weapons.
I really love everything about these new Lumineth. Exelent fresh take on the aelf concept. More fairytale Narnia style than boring old Tolkien elves. (ofcourse Narnia would only accept elves as subordinate subjects under Christian human kings,but you get the point).
Someone on Facebook pointed out that the veiled Mage or whatever she is looks like she’s holding the goblet of smoke we saw with her veiled face (the goblet has a hand holding it with a robed sleeve that matches her, and the very end of the smoke looks like it matches the group photo of her).
The cow-head hammer Elves aren’t my cup of tea either, but all discussion about whether they are strong enough to wield the too big looking hammers is silly because it’s clearly stated these are MAGICAL hammers, so the magic obviously makes them light enough to swing around
I’d have rather seen them with cavalry style hammers as they are far smaller.
No hammer wielded in warhammer, save maybe the very few instances early on, are actually practical weapon. Certainly not the massive sledge-hammers which GW loves giving to everyone.That's just the aesthetic.
Probably just replace their heads with the spear heads or old HE heads. I strongly dislike painting faces or that would be the other option just making all of them without a helmet.
For the people that don’t want the cow-face masks or the horns, the physics of plastic casting means those must be separate pieces to the helmets proper, so you could just leave them off and put a gem or something over the connection point.
The basic helmet shape looks pretty classically high-elf/Greek so that would work quite well with standard HElf infantry.
ImAGeek wrote: Someone on Facebook pointed out that the veiled Mage or whatever she is looks like she’s holding the goblet of smoke we saw with her veiled face (the goblet has a hand holding it with a robed sleeve that matches her, and the very end of the smoke looks like it matches the group photo of her).
Mr_Rose wrote: For the people that don’t want the cow-face masks or the horns, the physics of plastic casting means those must be separate pieces to the helmets proper, so you could just leave them off and put a gem or something over the connection point.
Well... that's broadly true. But GW really likes complex interlocking parts these days, so I doubt it will be that straightforward.
Not particularly a fan of the squished faces either.
Its a shame, really. The body is a really solid piece for an elf warrior, then they just went 'how can we make it weird?' Weird for the weird god.
Art often depicts Vikings with horns on their helmets, but actually, that was the Celts that Rome fought in Briton. Warriors figured out pretty quickly that the scare value of having an impressive helmet did not make up for the broken neck you would suffer if your opponent's weapons hit the protruding horns and suddenly forced your neck to twist. Even Medieval and Renaissance Helmets with fantastic crests were only worn for social occasions and were replaced with more practical helms for battle. If those bull helms that the elves are wearing aren't decorated with paper Mache tear away bull horns, those elves are going to get wrecked in battle. Hell, a weedy elf probably couldn't support his head in an upright position with that much weight bearing down on him. Everything about these elves runs contrary to the lithe, light aesthetics that elves are usually assigned. I know AOS is about busting norms and thinking outside the box, but this is really just dumb.
Yeah. I know it is a fantasy game, but I really don't like those helmets. The height is ridiculous, and then the horns make them broader than the elves wearing them.
Can you imagine these guys trying to run through a forest, or enter a building? Too much, for me. From the head down they are quite nice, though I think blunt weapons are not very elvish.
Da Boss wrote: Yeah. I know it is a fantasy game, but I really don't like those helmets. The height is ridiculous, and then the horns make them broader than the elves wearing them.
Can you imagine these guys trying to run through a forest, or enter a building? Too much, for me. From the head down they are quite nice, though I think blunt weapons are not very elvish.
You mean that blunt weapons aren't Tolkien rip-off Elvish? Because not every elf from every game and company needs to copy Lord of the Rings aesthetics for their High Elves.
I think one of the reasons Skaven are so cool is that they are a GW creation that doesn't slavishly follow the same design aesthetic as all other companies. Lumineth are not required to just be "Old World elves in new plastic" any more than the Overlords had to be reworked Old World Dwarves.
Da Boss wrote: Yeah. I know it is a fantasy game, but I really don't like those helmets. The height is ridiculous, and then the horns make them broader than the elves wearing them.
Can you imagine these guys trying to run through a forest, or enter a building? Too much, for me. From the head down they are quite nice, though I think blunt weapons are not very elvish.
Same can be said of the high elves and their cone heads.
ImAGeek wrote: I like seeing something different for Aelves, even if it’s just giving them a weapon they don’t traditionally use.
The hammers do look kind of ridiculously oversized, but well... that's Warhammer for ya, every weapon is.
I think seeing hammers on elves don't strike me as strange due mostly to Tolkien, both because there they were the best smiths of the world and because the noldors of Gondolin traditionally used them, to the point of being the "house of the hammer"
The Noldor Elf advanced with hammer of wrath,
And the kindred of the tree-bravely they fought,
The blows from their hammers, The dint of their clubs,
The orcs fell like leaves but this was not enough.
The lord of the Balrogs gathered his demons,
and made for the folk of the hammer.
They fled in terror rather than of craft,
Down in the plain they all gathered.
But a fire-drake was loosed upon them-
In the house of the hammer they died.
Still it is sung that each Elf of the hammer,
Took the lives of seven orcs to pay for their own.
TBD wrote: The cow-head hammer Elves aren’t my cup of tea either, but all discussion about whether they are strong enough to wield the too big looking hammers is silly because it’s clearly stated these are MAGICAL hammers, so the magic obviously makes them light enough to swing around
If they are incredibly light, hitting someone with them won't have much of an impact though. Something about force equalling mass times acceleration.
By Warhammer standards, I'm not even sure if these weapons are particularly oversized, though I don't like the look of them. A shame really, as the models are very well done otherwise - dynamic, swinging poses with a real sense of movement. Swap/modify the heads to something vaguely sensible and give them a two-handed sword, or perhaps a graceful naginata-style polearm, and they'll look fantastic.
I can see how it may be "interesting" to redesign fantasy tropes, but this just doesn't work for me either. Speed and agility simply don't combine well with massive hammers. Similarly, the cow giants look off because they are so tall and slender; not particularly cowesque traits. Still interested to see where the rest of thing range goes, as the core aesthetics/quality is excellent overall, it's just the added details and strange "original" choices made that ruin the final look.
Are we able to drop the argument that these hammers only look stupidly large on the miniatures due to heroic-scale, and are much more sensibly proportioned in the artwork?
ImAGeek wrote: I like seeing something different for Aelves, even if it’s just giving them a weapon they don’t traditionally use.
The hammers do look kind of ridiculously oversized, but well... that's Warhammer for ya, every weapon is.
I think seeing hammers on elves don't strike me as strange due mostly to Tolkien, both because there they were the best smiths of the world and because the noldors of Gondolin traditionally used them, to the point of being the "house of the hammer"
The Noldor Elf advanced with hammer of wrath,
And the kindred of the tree-bravely they fought,
The blows from their hammers, The dint of their clubs,
The orcs fell like leaves but this was not enough.
The lord of the Balrogs gathered his demons,
and made for the folk of the hammer.
They fled in terror rather than of craft,
Down in the plain they all gathered.
But a fire-drake was loosed upon them-
In the house of the hammer they died.
Still it is sung that each Elf of the hammer,
Took the lives of seven orcs to pay for their own.
The artwork pretty much confirms that the model sitting on the floating chair is female. I thought it was kind of obvious, but there was some doubt earlier.
Are we able to drop the argument that these hammers only look stupidly large on the miniatures due to heroic-scale, and are much more sensibly proportioned in the artwork?
That is the big dude, not the infantry to which that line of discussion applies. I think we can all agree that it does not particularly matter what a creature of such size and obvious strength hits you with, you are going to die!
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Da Boss wrote: Yeah. I know it is a fantasy game, but I really don't like those helmets. The height is ridiculous, and then the horns make them broader than the elves wearing them.
Can you imagine these guys trying to run through a forest, or enter a building? Too much, for me. From the head down they are quite nice, though I think blunt weapons are not very elvish.
I do not like the helmets or the hammers, both are just too large for me. Even when compensating for heroic scale as previously mentioned the hammer is too much IMO. If I had them the top half of that helmet would be getting cut off, and I would be looking around for hammer swaps.
These guys are apparently infused with the power of the mountains (lesser extent of the battle cattle) so that may make it easier for them.
I’d still rather a small cavalry hammer though if they needed hammers.
I think hammers with more reasonably sized heads would have looked a lot better.
Even for non-Elves, I've never liked the aesthetics of 'giant mallet' weapons.
Keep in mind the scale of GW miniatures is not true; items like weapons are up-scaled to make their details more apparent and for aesthetics. Note how, bar a few exceptions, weapon proportions in the art are much more reasonable.
It's also practical because we play with models about 1ft or so from us on a table. It's even "worse" for other scales; at 15 mm weapons are massive compared to what they'd really be. Plus things like thickness vary a lot too; swords are super thick because making them the right scale thickness would have them flopping over, falling off out the mould or snapping super easy. I've got some metal models on the table and the swords for them are much thicker than plastic ones, though even the plastic are often still too thick for reality.
It can be done by GW really well too though.
Just take a look at the LoTR range.
Most of their weapons are far more normal and don’t suffer as a result.
My experience with LotR minis is limited but I did have problems in relation to how thin pieces were. Fortunately I was swapping out the weapons anyways.
SnotlingPimpWagon wrote: Those elves are pretty good overall. But... elves and hammers don’t mix. They just don’t. Glaives, or greatswords would work better, imho. Even axes.
I think when they are the only elite regiment, it seems a little odd. Once we see River and Wind (maybe Zenith) elites, the Earth guys having hammers and the Wind guys being more classic swordmasters will make things fit in a little better.
As the elven elite it's a little usual, as the elite of the Stone aspected elves, less so.
Ghaz wrote: Looking at pics 2 and 4, the hammers seem to be hollow...
I think they are designed to be solid metal with a hollow central point. That might be for visual design; magical properties or some other aspect.
Going with the theme that the mask on Avalenor is what keeps his spirit in the constructed body, I would say that the hammers have a similar purpose and that they're actually not a heavy, solid hammer at all.
I think the criticism about "tolkien" elves vs. other styles is not super strong to be honest. For better or worse, Tolkien defined the popular idea of a "fantasy" elf, the main other idea is of Christmas elves.
I think tropes are good, especially in a mass market fantasy setting. Making them different just for the sake of it is not very interesting to me. Hammerers are a Dwarven thing, so it is weird to now have elves who live in and worship mountains, have mountain runic language and hammer based elite units. Sort of dilutes the faction identity a bit.
As to the High Elf conical helms, yeah, those also stretch my disbelief, but these are at least twice as bad, particularly the huge horns sticking out to either side. I can't look at them without imagining these guys trying to enter a building or something really awkwardly, and super awkwardness is not something I associate with Elves.
JSG wrote: A: Let's design a new Elf army!
B: Great! I'll get Jes.
A: Nah mate, I got this.
For some reason this scenario was allowed to play out at GWHQ.
Do we know for sure that Jes wasn’t involved in the design for these?
During the preview Phil Kelly says "the sculptors developed this range of Lumineth..." If Jes had any meaningful involvement I think they'd be dropping his name tbh.
JSG wrote: A: Let's design a new Elf army!
B: Great! I'll get Jes.
A: Nah mate, I got this.
For some reason this scenario was allowed to play out at GWHQ.
Do we know for sure that Jes wasn’t involved in the design for these?
During the preview Phil Kelly says "the sculptors developed this range of Lumineth..." If Jes had any meaningful involvement I think they'd be dropping his name tbh.
Talking about how hammers aren't proper elvish weapons is like people saying that bow aren't dwarven weapons when in LOTR is the only one they use.
And theres all kind of elves. I mean, the hammers look like ass, but theres nothing wrong with elves using hammers. Specially if you design them with some of the more raven-picke hammer style.
JSG wrote: A: Let's design a new Elf army!
B: Great! I'll get Jes.
A: Nah mate, I got this.
For some reason this scenario was allowed to play out at GWHQ.
Do we know for sure that Jes wasn’t involved in the design for these?
I think Jes works on the 40k team and they are separate studios now- so unlikely but not impossible that Jes worked on them.
The visual weight of them reminds me of those Iranian club guys- they swing really heavy oversized clubs - a combination of strength, skill and momentum.
But if you can't suspend your disbelief it doesn't matter.
The other factions will look different- I don't mind these guys, they look cool enough but I'm not really into the high elf trope.
To me the hammer heads don’t look particularly oversized vs what we typically see. The difference I note is the handles are of much more realistic proportion vs older models. Perhaps this. Adds to why people are seeing the hammer head as oversized.
The cow helmet is a bit much-I like the various photoshopped options people have posted, but overall love the new range. Perfect mix of old school high elf and AOS weirdness.
Galas wrote: Talking about how hammers aren't proper elvish weapons is like people saying that bow aren't dwarven weapons when in LOTR is the only one they use.
I fear I'm not understanding what you're trying to say here.
And theres all kind of elves. I mean, the hammers look like ass, but theres nothing wrong with elves using hammers. Specially if you design them with some of the more raven-picke hammer style.
I think if the Elves were using realistically-proportioned warhammers, it would be fine.
Sure, hammers aren't traditionally associated with elves but they'd still serve a useful anti-armour role alongside the bows and various edged weapons that elves are more typically depicted as using.
Galas wrote: Talking about how hammers aren't proper elvish weapons is like people saying that bow aren't dwarven weapons when in LOTR is the only one they use.
I fear I'm not understanding what you're trying to say here.
And theres all kind of elves. I mean, the hammers look like ass, but theres nothing wrong with elves using hammers. Specially if you design them with some of the more raven-picke hammer style.
I think if the Elves were using realistically-proportioned warhammers, it would be fine.
Sure, hammers aren't traditionally associated with elves but they'd still serve a useful anti-armour role alongside the bows and various edged weapons that elves are more typically depicted as using.
He's saying that bows are not typically considered dwarf weapons. Not warhammer style anyway, but they do use them frequently in Tolkien's works. As well as spears, swords and other weapons not considered typically "dwarfy". Same way there's precedent for elves to use hammers and axes, even though they're not usually considered "elvish".
Kanluwen wrote: And the hammers' size doesn't mean jack when the elves in question are mystically drawing upon the strength of a fricking mountain to be super beefy.
Conversely, hand-wavy fluff doesn't mean jack to the silly look of the models.
The hammers would look silly if they were "normal" sized. Heck, consider the massive slabs of steel that idoneth thralls lug around, which have 1" range.
Personally, when I think of elves in any fantasy setting, they are stereotypically agile, graceful, skilful and elegant. Their weaponry and armour should suggest the same elegance and finesse. Floating cow horns and a bloody croquet mallet does *not* nail that. There's subverting a stereotype and there's just fething it up, and for me they're very much into the latter territory.
Sticking to a stereotype or even subverting one is boring. There are a 1001 Tolkienesque settings that do that and multiple mini companies that just copy that trope. Lets have some fun throwing something completely new out there.
I do wonder how many who are dead-set against the helms might change their mind when they get or see the models in the flesh. Sometimes angles and the amount of enlargement that photos/video can give to models, can make things appear slightly different to how we perceive them when we see them in the flesh.
Overlarge weapons is a good one, but there's also other details and aspects that can seem odd in a model when seen on the screen; compared to when you hold them in the hand.
Sadly with the government shutdowns it might be a long while before Luminoth get to appear in peoples hands.
Kanluwen wrote: And the hammers' size doesn't mean jack when the elves in question are mystically drawing upon the strength of a fricking mountain to be super beefy.
Sigh. Feel free to read a physics textbook once in a while.
Firstly, having hammers that size isn't actually useful. The point of warhammers is to concentrate force into a relatively small area. Hence, their heads are still hammer-sized, not Loony-Toons-mallet-sized. By having them be this big, you're making them much harder to move and swing for virtually no gain.
Secondly, in practical terms, strength isn't actually the main problem. it's certainly *a* problem as, for example, no human alive would be able to heft weapons like that, so one's suspension of disbelief is already strained.
However, the main problem with human-sized creatures wielding preposterously large and heavy weapons is that they simply don't have the weight or grip to maintain their balance whilst swinging them. And, for about the 4th time, this has nothing to do with the user's strength, so magic super-strength won't actually help one iota with this issue.
Kanluwen wrote: And the hammers' size doesn't mean jack when the elves in question are mystically drawing upon the strength of a fricking mountain to be super beefy.
Sigh. Feel free to read a physics textbook once in a while.
Firstly, having hammers that size isn't actually useful. The point of warhammers is to concentrate force into a relatively small area. Hence, their heads are still hammer-sized, not Loony-Toons-mallet-sized. By having them be this big, you're making them much harder to move and swing for virtually no gain.
Secondly, in practical terms, strength isn't actually the main problem. it's certainly *a* problem as, for example, no human alive would be able to heft weapons like that, so one's suspension of disbelief is already strained.
However, the main problem with human-sized creatures wielding preposterously large and heavy weapons is that they simply don't have the weight or grip to maintain their balance whilst swinging them. And, for about the 4th time, this has nothing to do with the user's strength, so magic super-strength won't actually help one iota with this issue.
It's hard to apply physics in a high fantasy setting though. Especially since novelty sized hammers aren't anything new. Dwarf Hammerers have existed forever and they're just as massive. Sure, dwarves look like they can wield them easier, but like you said, big hammers wouldn't matter. And this army already has tri-stringed bows, so evidently, these elves are strong as hell.
As for part 2, once again, humans have existed in the setting forever that wield such weapons. Not really Sigmarite priest, but look at the empire captain on foot and horse is using an even bigger hammer than these guys. I don't see the point in spending a ton of time going after these specific models, odd though they may be, when other guilty models have existed for years without people raising as much fuss. (I'm looking at you, vampire count skeleton that is somehow able to use a horn, despite lacking lungs.)
There's a walking mountain shaped as a Minotaur. Physics applys to that too right?
Forget the new stuff, how does physics play into just about any of the AoS's settings? It's all psuedo science and magic. Trying to call a single weapon bad because it's unrealistic or exagerated amongst a sea of unrealistic or exaggerated weapons is pointless at this time. It's part of the setting.
Kanluwen wrote: And the hammers' size doesn't mean jack when the elves in question are mystically drawing upon the strength of a fricking mountain to be super beefy.
Sigh. Feel free to read a physics textbook once in a while.
Firstly, having hammers that size isn't actually useful. The point of warhammers is to concentrate force into a relatively small area. Hence, their heads are still hammer-sized, not Loony-Toons-mallet-sized. By having them be this big, you're making them much harder to move and swing for virtually no gain.
Secondly, in practical terms, strength isn't actually the main problem. it's certainly *a* problem as, for example, no human alive would be able to heft weapons like that, so one's suspension of disbelief is already strained.
However, the main problem with human-sized creatures wielding preposterously large and heavy weapons is that they simply don't have the weight or grip to maintain their balance whilst swinging them. And, for about the 4th time, this has nothing to do with the user's strength, so magic super-strength won't actually help one iota with this issue.
What frightens me most is that these Stoneguard are gonna end up with awesome rules that make them monsters on the table, so people are going to rush out and buy a ton of them.
To me they are a bit of a shame because I think the other infantry units, the spearmen and the archers look pretty great. (particularly as sources for conversions.
These guys have the double whammy of a not super appealing helm (but just using the bull heads as helmets looks promising, but also the mallets are not so great.
However, replace the mallet heads with double axe heads, and use the bull heads as helmets and suddenly you have a unit of angry Minoans!
I don't think I've seen a worse design of a fantasy miniature, it's so obvious they've been smoking something really strong.
They could have made elves with hammers, but they need to fit the aesthetics of the elves. Much more elegant and cohesive. The elves themself look slim, with pointy robes but
they wield huge cylinder on pole which could almost be a spear. They made them so long beacuse of the helmets so that can be swung around.
The dwarfs are milllion times more cohesive. Short and stocky with fullplate mail and the hammers are in the similar ballpark (short, stocky and heavy).
But the greatest sin are the helmets, there should be at least a minimal logic or physics taken into consideration. How these guys walk into a building, how they fight.
Even walking through the forest is mission impossible, half the army would die by breaking their necks.
Gross, pure and simple.
TBD wrote: The cow-head hammer Elves aren’t my cup of tea either, but all discussion about whether they are strong enough to wield the too big looking hammers is silly because it’s clearly stated these are MAGICAL hammers, so the magic obviously makes them light enough to swing around
If they are incredibly light, hitting someone with them won't have much of an impact though. Something about force equalling mass times acceleration.
Weight and mass are not the same though. A truck still hits like a truck, even on the moon where it's much lighter.
Removing gravity from the hammer would make it easier to wield without reducing the impact.
And you're missing the most important part of the equation: magic.
Manfred von Drakken wrote: What frightens me most is that these Stoneguard are gonna end up with awesome rules that make them monsters on the table, so people are going to rush out and buy a ton of them.
GW: "See? People love the new look!"
That's what happened with Ossiarchs right? The reaction to the reveal was one big "Meeeeh" at best, even from a fandom that usually inflates itself to manchild levels of excitement over the slightest offering from GW. It felt like there was little in the way of hype, even compared to glorified updates like Ork Warclans.
Then it turns out their an S-tier army, extremely powerful and metadefining. Suddenly everybody and their mum is fielding them.
Plenty of people like Ossiarchs just for what they are. I think at present one downside some of the online comments have for AoS is that every time an army comes out there's abit of a hang over of "Oh I hope they are a re-creation of XYZ army from Old World".
Not an unfair desire and GW has fed that beast themselves with "the return of pointy aelves". Though I note that the core infantry, horse and archers for Luminoth are fairly standard elves, so far we've people complaining about one specialist elite unit. It's a bit like complaining that you don't like warp-spiders in Eldar- its a fair comment, but its far from the whole army.
Ossiarchs got the same, a lot of people wanted a Tomb Kings style undead army and didn't get one. So Ossiarchs got a bit of a negative backlash from that segment of the fanbase. It wasn't a problem with the design; just that it wasn't Tomb Kings.
Plus like a lot of newer AoS armies they suffer a little bit from a small model range at present; but that's nothing unique to them.
Overread wrote: Plenty of people like Ossiarchs just for what they are. I think at present one downside some of the online comments have for AoS is that every time an army comes out there's abit of a hang over of "Oh I hope they are a re-creation of XYZ army from Old World".
Not an unfair desire and GW has fed that beast themselves with "the return of pointy aelves". Though I note that the core infantry, horse and archers for Luminoth are fairly standard elves, so far we've people complaining about one specialist elite unit.
And the characters. And the archers.
Why cherry pick what people are complaining about and ignore the rest?
At this point, the phalanx and the knights are the minority (apparently just to sucker people in with nostalgia), and the terribly wacky stuff is most of the range. With the hollow knight as a middle ground that works for some people and not others.
And the characters. And the archers.
Why cherry pick what people are complaining about and ignore the rest?
At this point, the phalanx and the knights are the minority (apparently just to sucker people in with nostalgia), and the terribly wacky stuff is most of the range. With the hollow knight as a middle ground that works for some people and not others.
Personally the archers and the floaty mage are my favourites. I like the more apparent Chinese influence they have over the Greek vibe the other units have.
We haven't seen much with the Zenith bit, and the article I had pulled the runic mandala from made it sound like Zenith is a rarity so it might not get more than a character/mage.
Kanluwen wrote: And the hammers' size doesn't mean jack when the elves in question are mystically drawing upon the strength of a fricking mountain to be super beefy.
Sigh. Feel free to read a physics textbook once in a while.
Firstly, having hammers that size isn't actually useful. The point of warhammers is to concentrate force into a relatively small area. Hence, their heads are still hammer-sized, not Loony-Toons-mallet-sized. By having them be this big, you're making them much harder to move and swing for virtually no gain.
Secondly, in practical terms, strength isn't actually the main problem. it's certainly *a* problem as, for example, no human alive would be able to heft weapons like that, so one's suspension of disbelief is already strained.
However, the main problem with human-sized creatures wielding preposterously large and heavy weapons is that they simply don't have the weight or grip to maintain their balance whilst swinging them. And, for about the 4th time, this has nothing to do with the user's strength, so magic super-strength won't actually help one iota with this issue.
That is a nice story, but this is magic so anything goes.
GW wrote:Q: How does the Rend characteristic of attacks interact with the Bastiladon while it has a 1+ Save characteristic?
A: An unmodified save roll of a 1 always fails. When a
save roll is modified by the Rend characteristic of an
attack, it can never be modified to less than 1. When
a model has a Save characteristic of 1+, modified save
rolls of 1 are successfully saved. This means, while
the Bastiladon has a Save characteristic of 1+, only
unmodified save rolls of 1 will inflict damage regardless
of the Rend characteristic of the weapon used for
the attack.[/i]
Holy crap... time for people to start looking for 1+ saves...
Manfred von Drakken wrote: What frightens me most is that these Stoneguard are gonna end up with awesome rules that make them monsters on the table, so people are going to rush out and buy a ton of them.
GW: "See? People love the new look!"
That's what happened with Ossiarchs right? The reaction to the reveal was one big "Meeeeh" at best, even from a fandom that usually inflates itself to manchild levels of excitement over the slightest offering from GW. It felt like there was little in the way of hype, even compared to glorified updates like Ork Warclans.
Then it turns out their an S-tier army, extremely powerful and metadefining. Suddenly everybody and their mum is fielding them.
Uh, I disagree. A ton of people really like the look of them and committed to buy them even before the rules were out. Same with pointy elves.
GW wrote:Q: How does the Rend characteristic of attacks interact with the Bastiladon while it has a 1+ Save characteristic?
A: An unmodified save roll of a 1 always fails. When a
save roll is modified by the Rend characteristic of an
attack, it can never be modified to less than 1. When
a model has a Save characteristic of 1+, modified save
rolls of 1 are successfully saved. This means, while
the Bastiladon has a Save characteristic of 1+, only
unmodified save rolls of 1 will inflict damage regardless
of the Rend characteristic of the weapon used for
the attack.[/i]
Holy crap... time for people to start looking for 1+ saves...
This only applies to 1+ save CHARACTERISTICS not saves that can be modified to become that. Unless the number printed on the warscroll is 1+ this does not apply.
Or in simple terms, there is nothing else in the game this applies to. Right now. Which is good because IMO it is totally broken, but then bastiladons were already stupid so nothing new.
I'm not very familiar with Seraphon. What kind of damage output does a Bastilodon have? Are we looking at a Distraction Carnifex you're better off ignoring, or is it something you really need to prioritize?
EnTyme wrote: I'm not very familiar with Seraphon. What kind of damage output does a Bastilodon have? Are we looking at a Distraction Carnifex you're better off ignoring, or is it something you really need to prioritize?
It isn’t that amazing so it is definitely ignorable. Pretty much every army has at lest some access to mortal wounds. A handful of mortal wounds will reduce its save so it can be attacked by regular units.
The FAQ was meh over all. A few things expected, a few things frustratingly nerfed/changer already, and many questions still waiting to be answered. This was a really short FAQ....
EnTyme wrote: I'm not very familiar with Seraphon. What kind of damage output does a Bastilodon have? Are we looking at a Distraction Carnifex you're better off ignoring, or is it something you really need to prioritize?
It isn’t that amazing so it is definitely ignorable. Pretty much every army has at lest some access to mortal wounds. A handful of mortal wounds will reduce its save so it can be attacked by regular units.
At full stats 5/4 dmg per turn at 24" against a 5+/4+ save, 7.5/6 vs daemons. That is, however, assuming no buffs. A Thunder Lizard army could turn that into 13.3/10.7 average by spending 2 cp, so it can really depend on how they built the list. Ultimately for most armies it will not really be ignorable.
EnTyme wrote: I'm not very familiar with Seraphon. What kind of damage output does a Bastilodon have? Are we looking at a Distraction Carnifex you're better off ignoring, or is it something you really need to prioritize?
It isn’t that amazing so it is definitely ignorable. Pretty much every army has at lest some access to mortal wounds. A handful of mortal wounds will reduce its save so it can be attacked by regular units.
At full stats 5/4 dmg per turn at 24" against a 5+/4+ save, 7.5/6 vs daemons. That is, however, assuming no buffs. A Thunder Lizard army could turn that into 13.3/10.7 average by spending 2 cp, so it can really depend on how they built the list. Ultimately for most armies it will not really be ignorable.
You can't spend the CP twice on the same Basti. You need a second. That's a nearly 500 point investment without a hero so far. Is it bad? No. But it's not ideal.
Bastilidons are good. But they're slow, and the damage is okay, not great. Better to take Stegadons with bows. They move faster, hit harder, and can be Battleline in TL.
EnTyme wrote: I'm not very familiar with Seraphon. What kind of damage output does a Bastilodon have? Are we looking at a Distraction Carnifex you're better off ignoring, or is it something you really need to prioritize?
It isn’t that amazing so it is definitely ignorable. Pretty much every army has at lest some access to mortal wounds. A handful of mortal wounds will reduce its save so it can be attacked by regular units.
At full stats 5/4 dmg per turn at 24" against a 5+/4+ save, 7.5/6 vs daemons. That is, however, assuming no buffs. A Thunder Lizard army could turn that into 13.3/10.7 average by spending 2 cp, so it can really depend on how they built the list. Ultimately for most armies it will not really be ignorable.
You can't spend the CP twice on the same Basti. You need a second. That's a nearly 500 point investment without a hero so far. Is it bad? No. But it's not ideal.
Bastilidons are good. But they're slow, and the damage is okay, not great. Better to take Stegadons with bows. They move faster, hit harder, and can be Battleline in TL.
You seem to believe those numbers are based off having one Bastiladon shoot three times. Were that the case, it would triple the damage output (that I even put a number at all instead of just saying "triple the damage output" should be a hint IMO). The number actually comes from using the command ability of the skink priest to give it +1 to hit then making it shoot twice. That same skink priest can also give it the ability to shoot (and charge) in the same turn it ran, helping its movement considerably, and +1 to saves for good measure. Said hero is 70 points, meaning the whole thing comes in at 290. This would be one thing in any other army where 2 cp is a considerable investment, but Seraphon are likely to be generating more than 2 cp every turn; a slann general alone (great rememberer) will be generating 1.5 by himself.
Not saying it is the greatest thing out there, but it is much stronger than something which can be written off as a distraction carnifex.
As for stegadons, different role. Most of their damage is in melee where they will deal considerably more than a bastiladon's shooting but they are also far less durable. Apples to oranges.
The other thing to remember is that said skink priest can be killed.
If it were a buff built into the basti then fine, it would be far too much.
If you want to ignore the basti then just kill the skink priest and ignore it.
While people will shield the priest, they are then slowly sinking more points into a shield for him that has no other use while sitting there.
It is worth running a pair of basti though as once one begins to degrade you can just switch over to buff the other one instead.
Mortal wounds are still king as always though.
Certain units are going to just laugh at it then blast it from the board.
Only issue is that magic isn’t a reliable way to do so against lizards due to the sheer amount of unbinding they can have in a basic list.
I’m more worried about seeing kroak on a vortex with an astrolith near him.
The magic output from that is going to hurt like hell for whoever is on the other end of it.
Kanluwen wrote: And the hammers' size doesn't mean jack when the elves in question are mystically drawing upon the strength of a fricking mountain to be super beefy.
Sigh. Feel free to read a physics textbook once in a while.
Firstly, having hammers that size isn't actually useful. The point of warhammers is to concentrate force into a relatively small area. Hence, their heads are still hammer-sized, not Loony-Toons-mallet-sized. By having them be this big, you're making them much harder to move and swing for virtually no gain.
Secondly, in practical terms, strength isn't actually the main problem. it's certainly *a* problem as, for example, no human alive would be able to heft weapons like that, so one's suspension of disbelief is already strained.
However, the main problem with human-sized creatures wielding preposterously large and heavy weapons is that they simply don't have the weight or grip to maintain their balance whilst swinging them. And, for about the 4th time, this has nothing to do with the user's strength, so magic super-strength won't actually help one iota with this issue.
I agree with everything you have said... however a lot of the fanbase on here are immune to rational criticism. They have the magic bullet that for them, kills it dead...
Just say 'Magic' as loud as they can to basically shout down any valid points. It is quite similar to how some meat eaters think shouting 'Bacon' is the answer to any discussion with a Vegetarian/Vegan. A glimpse I to a frightfully simple minded person.
Yes, magic is a part of AoS, especially concerning Elves... however that doesn't pardon badly designed models.
Kanluwen wrote: And the hammers' size doesn't mean jack when the elves in question are mystically drawing upon the strength of a fricking mountain to be super beefy.
Sigh. Feel free to read a physics textbook once in a while.
Firstly, having hammers that size isn't actually useful. The point of warhammers is to concentrate force into a relatively small area. Hence, their heads are still hammer-sized, not Loony-Toons-mallet-sized. By having them be this big, you're making them much harder to move and swing for virtually no gain.
Secondly, in practical terms, strength isn't actually the main problem. it's certainly *a* problem as, for example, no human alive would be able to heft weapons like that, so one's suspension of disbelief is already strained.
However, the main problem with human-sized creatures wielding preposterously large and heavy weapons is that they simply don't have the weight or grip to maintain their balance whilst swinging them. And, for about the 4th time, this has nothing to do with the user's strength, so magic super-strength won't actually help one iota with this issue.
I agree with everything you have said... however a lot of the fanbase on here are immune to rational criticism. They have the magic bullet that for them, kills it dead...
Just say 'Magic' as loud as they can to basically shout down any valid points. It is quite similar to how some meat eaters think shouting 'Bacon' is the answer to any discussion with a Vegetarian/Vegan. A glimpse I to a frightfully simple minded person.
Yes, magic is a part of AoS, especially concerning Elves... however that doesn't pardon badly designed models.
The hyperbole is thicker than those hammers
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jackal90 wrote: The other thing to remember is that said skink priest can be killed.
If it were a buff built into the basti then fine, it would be far too much.
If you want to ignore the basti then just kill the skink priest and ignore it.
While people will shield the priest, they are then slowly sinking more points into a shield for him that has no other use while sitting there.
It is worth running a pair of basti though as once one begins to degrade you can just switch over to buff the other one instead.
Mortal wounds are still king as always though.
Certain units are going to just laugh at it then blast it from the board.
Only issue is that magic isn’t a reliable way to do so against lizards due to the sheer amount of unbinding they can have in a basic list.
I’m more worried about seeing kroak on a vortex with an astrolith near him.
The magic output from that is going to hurt like hell for whoever is on the other end of it.
Yeah, there is absolutely counter-play that can be done. It is far from the level of game-breaking that exists on the worst end, and not even the most OP thing in the battletome.
So this has to be the first time that confirmation of a release of a brand new army is considered small news
Personally I think it just shows how good we've had it from GW in the last few years that people are "greedy" in what they want now.
And yes if isolation isn't ending until June then GW might well have to spread things out even further. I mean it does't really matter if they show us loads of cool stuff. The only things they can release now are e-books/products and the video stuff. All the rest is basically impossible for them to do with the factories closed. They could reveal 5 new armies for 40K and we'd have a great half hour and then NOTHING FOR MONTHS.
This "army" box is pretty sad. About Start Collecting size, actually, though probably triple price. I wonder if Sisters sold so well GW decided to just throw every new army into the box from now on, complete with DLC locked character to prod sales up a bit?
Irbis wrote: This "army" box is pretty sad. About Start Collecting size, actually, though probably triple price. I wonder if Sisters sold so well GW decided to just throw every new army into the box from now on, complete with DLC locked character to prod sales up a bit?
I was amused at the "special dice" the Sisters ones were anything but!
Irbis wrote: This "army" box is pretty sad. About Start Collecting size, actually, though probably triple price. I wonder if Sisters sold so well GW decided to just throw every new army into the box from now on, complete with DLC locked character to prod sales up a bit?
I wouldn't start crying wolf until we've actually seen the prices on the box - its a little early to jump-start on the complaints.
It contains the core of the army and all the rules and resources to use it. Honestly a pretty good box and if it comes with a discount then its a very GOOD thing because it means that you're getting basically everything you'd buy anyway starting the army with discount. Granted it might mean that you basically get the dice and cards for free or suchlike; but that's still a good deal in my book. There's basically no waste in the set - you get a key leader; core infantry and cavalry. So there's nothing to lose getting it if you were going to jump into the army.
From what I recall sisters sold well, its only detracting point was GW's choice to use mono-pose kits taht weren't as fleshed out as the normal kits; which is something we are seeing them adopt at large. Ergo getting started sets that offer good value, but which offer mono-pose/option construction whilst a more fleshed out and varied kit compliments them. Basically GW is seeing that, likely especially with smaller AoS armies, Getting started sets can end up being the bulk of the purchases for many customers. So GW is providing that, but at at same time limiting the options just a bit so that there's incentive for customers to also buy the other sets as well.
You get a presumably special character leader(important distinction since it'd be limited to 1 and we've seen how wonderfully bad it goes for split-boxing those ), presumably core infantry, and presumably core cavalry.
This opens the door for a Start Collecting or a big Battleforce later in the year for the holidays or early next year that will avoid the past issues of duplication of specific heroes or units.
Ballpark estimate, based off of the Sisters of Battle Army Pack? You're looking at around $200USD.
Going off of the prices for Ossiarch Bonereapers you're looking at $60 for the cavalry, $50 for the spears, $40 for the character=$150. $80 for the LE codex brings you to $230, $20 for the dice, $20(conservative estimate---Seraphon were $35 for some reason) for the warscroll cards brings you to $270.
Kanluwen wrote: You get a presumably special character leader(important distinction since it'd be limited to 1 and we've seen how wonderfully bad it goes for split-boxing those ), presumably core infantry, and presumably core cavalry.
This opens the door for a Start Collecting or a big Battleforce later in the year for the holidays or early next year that will avoid the past issues of duplication of specific heroes or units.
Ballpark estimate, based off of the Sisters of Battle Army Pack? You're looking at around $200USD.
Going off of the prices for Ossiarch Bonereapers you're looking at $60 for the cavalry, $50 for the spears, $40 for the character=$150. $80 for the LE codex brings you to $230, $20 for the dice, $20(conservative estimate---Seraphon were $35 for some reason) for the warscroll cards brings you to $270.
I suppose th big difference is that the models in the new box are the same as general release models?
Overread wrote: I wouldn't start crying wolf until we've actually seen the prices on the box - its a little early to jump-start on the complaints.
Come on, take one look at how much GW charges for novelty dice and "special" cover books and tell me with a straight face you expect it to be any bargain.
Especially after Sister box was easily 166% price of older army boxes, never mind fail of the Phoenix one. A year ago I might have agreed with you, but now...?
Irbis wrote: This "army" box is pretty sad. About Start Collecting size, actually, though probably triple price. I wonder if Sisters sold so well GW decided to just throw every new army into the box from now on, complete with DLC locked character to prod sales up a bit?
I was amused at the "special dice" the Sisters ones were anything but!
What do you mean? They were great ones, the stained glass effect when held up to the light was especially nice.
Irbis wrote: This "army" box is pretty sad. About Start Collecting size, actually, though probably triple price. I wonder if Sisters sold so well GW decided to just throw every new army into the box from now on, complete with DLC locked character to prod sales up a bit?
I was amused at the "special dice" the Sisters ones were anything but!
What do you mean? They were great ones, the stained glass effect when held up to the light was especially nice.
No I could not get those in time - the "Miracle Dice" in the ltd ed box - the plain white ones
Irbis wrote: This "army" box is pretty sad. About Start Collecting size, actually, though probably triple price. I wonder if Sisters sold so well GW decided to just throw every new army into the box from now on, complete with DLC locked character to prod sales up a bit?
I was amused at the "special dice" the Sisters ones were anything but!
Indeed, they were amazing: simple, high contrast, clutter free, and a very good size and weight. Only way they could have been better is if they were razor cut. Absolutely the best dice GW have put in a boxed set in a decade though. I liked them so much, I got two sets.
The box will be horrible price-wise. It's stuffed to the gills with things that are just padding (usually grossly overpriced like the "limited" battletome) while having as many models as a Start Collecting box.
The gargants look funny, which is what gargants always did, but I remain skeptical of a whole army of giants, Knights and superheavies are the worst part of 40k for me.
I was thinking that the Dawnriders are more equivalent to to 2 infantry?
I was meaning more because you had a Canoness equated to the hero--there is only The Light of Eltharion in this set. It's 26 models all told, and for some reason I was thinking that the Sisters pack was around 30 rather than 25.
Still maintaining that the price point will be around $200, as the limited army book is again "made for this box".
A few years ago I spent a wad on bits to make a couple of wee, themed HE bands, in particular to kitbash modern looking spears, archers, cav, and a hero on a griffon. Stuck them in a box and didn't do much with them. Now that I'm maybe, possibly, could I, dig out that box and have another look, I find out that GW are releasing pretty good-looking spears and cav, and if I can find a decent eagle head I might grab that sphinx too. Dammit GW! You make my aloof hipster facade crumble as soon as I show up.
Archers... um. Maybe those extra strings nick off with a knife, and the heads can be easily swapped. Maybe.
Cow spirit is so ludicrous and over the top, it made me race right through horror and disgust and all the way back to awesome again. Cow helmets are stuck in horror and disgust.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:Dunno. Bound to be tensions. Otherwise, it’ll be all.....ahem
I’m a God, je suis un God, Tyrion, Teclis and Alarielle
We God together every day, one two three.
DaveC wrote: So this preview probably comes from the Kraken Eater as the artwork shows a boat in it's hand.
EDIT added the artwork group pic
Just noticed the two humans in the Kraken eater art. One in the boat and one falling out. Definitely looking significantly taller than the current Giant. I guess the Aleguzzler is going to be the Armiger to these guys Questor/Dominus.
Overread wrote: So this has to be the first time that confirmation of a release of a brand new army is considered small news
Personally I think it just shows how good we've had it from GW in the last few years that people are "greedy" in what they want now.
And yes if isolation isn't ending until June then GW might well have to spread things out even further. I mean it does't really matter if they show us loads of cool stuff. The only things they can release now are e-books/products and the video stuff. All the rest is basically impossible for them to do with the factories closed. They could reveal 5 new armies for 40K and we'd have a great half hour and then NOTHING FOR MONTHS.
I think you have a very valid point here.
Anyways, very excited to see more of the SoB. And Kraken Eater is a cool name.
That rule is pretty dam tame compared to what some other factions are running around with. I suspect people are looking at it, thinking "oh cool, that looks good but not too good" then moving on to talk about something more exciting.
Tame, but could be used to good effect if the army can put down a decent number of units as you could gang-up on a single enemy unit to wipe them out. But yes tame compared to say, Slaanesh, who can almost get an entire army attacking first.
I think the lack of chatter is because we've known they've been coming since the Zoat video went out - and before that when the shipment leaks show approaching items.
This new video confirms them and gives some hints, but we still don't really know anything much more. We've not seen anything, though some are suspecting that the Kracken version of the giants might be linked to the wrecked boat hints that we've seen .However GW are crafty and we've had rumour photos lead us astray before - eg the lizard pattern that turned out to be a pelt over a space marine set of armour.
Overread wrote: Tame, but could be used to good effect if the army can put down a decent number of units as you could gang-up on a single enemy unit to wipe them out. But yes tame compared to say, Slaanesh, who can almost get an entire army attacking first.
Do Slaanesh need to spend CP and such to achieve that result? Curious because usually abilities to get an advantage in activations over your opponent when it comes to alternating activation is a pretty big thing in my experience.. so seeing they just passively get a trait that lets them pick 2 at a time instead of 1 is pretty big deal to me it felt.
I’m just amused at people screaming about prices ....... that we don’t even have yet.
Plenty on here did the same about OBR too, then retracted those statements when they found out they weren’t as insanely priced as their crystal ball suggested.
What’s next, people complaining they are broken before we even get the rules? (Wouldn’t be a first either)
Pretty excited for the sons of behemat though, the art is showing them to be pretty big.
I’m assuming like the above poster, it will be akin to knights/armigers for size.
Will be interesting to see prices though along with points.
I’d expect to see the gargant bundle back too at some stage to try and sell more kits.
2 for just over the cost of 1 isn’t bad, which is partly why I have 2 of them anyway.
If that is an idea of scale though, I’m expecting £100+ kits at 500+ points each.
So you’d likely see 3 big ones plus a couple of gargants in a normal game.
GenRifDrake wrote: I'm surprised folks are talking about Sons of Behemat and the Army Box content but no mention of the first Lumineth Rules preview that they showed.
Meant to be a spiritual successor to the old ASF rule that High Elves had in the Old World.
What baffles me is that they wanted a successor to ASF. It was awful, most of the time it was "you get to go first and reroll everything" or had the 'penalty' of striking at initiative.
Sotahullu wrote: Dunno, it is the first rule we have seen there could be some other things that make it more interesting/powerful.
Yeah, I would lay good odds there is at least one faction, spell, or command ability that allows you to increase the number of units you can select. I also wouldn’t bet against a ‘binding’ spell that disrupts the Slaaneshi ASF effect and/or forces specific units to be chosen last.
From stunning front covers and pages replete with astonishing illustrations to page furniture and border art, the range of battletomes just wouldn’t be the same without being brought to life by images of heroic warriors, dread beasts and fantastical vistas. The battletome of the Lumineth Realm-lords is certainly no exception, and today we’re showing you some of the incredible artwork found within. We spoke to Cat O’Connor, one of the studio’s talented team of illustrators, who told us more about the artwork in the book.
Warhammer Community: What sets the artwork of the Lumineth Realm-lords apart from the other races of the Mortal Realms?
Cat: The setting of Warhammer Age of Sigmar is, for the most part, a dark and foreboding one. However, the Lumineth Realm-lords are, in essence, quite the opposite. The artwork we produced therefore offered us a chance to experiment with using the full colour spectrum, with lots of white and dazzling imagery to really convey the enlightened culture of the Hyshian aelves. In my head, I imagined them marching onto the battlefield with prismatic rays of light bathing their armour and surroundings in vibrant colours.
WarCom: Was there an overarching theme that you were aiming for with the artwork in the upcoming battletome?
Cat: We wanted to create a sense of ethereal power – that the Lumineth are so infused with the magical properties of aetherquartz that they appear otherworldly. To that end, sometimes it was more appropriate to show a character in a darker environment to emphasise that they are emanating their own light – such as with the Light of Eltharion and Scinari Cathaller.
WarCom: How did you go about choosing the various environments in which to set the Lumineth illustrations?
Cat: The Lumineth are all about their connection to Hysh. They even fight alongside the very spirits of their realm, so choosing strong and powerful mountainous environments seemed like the best way to really convey their sense of grandeur and the vast magical power at their disposal. They are not the delicate elves of the world-that-was, these guys are pike- and hammer-wielding magical powerhouses with backup from all the geomantic spirits of Hysh – some of which literally represent the mountains themselves!
WarCom: Were there any more subtle features that you wanted to emphasise or represent in the artwork?
Cat: We wanted to strengthen the natural bond that the Lumineth have with the ground they walk on, so featured shards of aetherquartz crystal embedded in the ground and – like the models themselves – spears of wheat popping up here and there.
WarCom: What are your favourite pieces of artwork in the battletome?
Cat: I love Paul Dainton’s Teclis piece – what a beautiful way to bring back such an awesome character of the world-that-was! You get a real sense of arrogance and divine resplendence from him.
I also really enjoyed painting Avalenor. It was a really cool opportunity to draw something so enormous and to capture that sense of slow, powerful implacability. He’s definitely not something to take ‘light-ly’ when he’s on the battlefield!
I wish the hammer-related miniatures had sizes like the art. The weapons and helmets are still huge but in miniature form they would not look nearly as silly if they had such proportions.
Not all that excited for Lumineth tbh, but Sons of Behemat are going make me drop my return to Maggotkin. But I can’t wait to see the master painters take a shot at Light of Eltharion.
tneva82 wrote: Hopefully those elf helms have the top part separate piece. If that can be get rid of and put into pointy end I might start an army.
They literally have to. The back of the cow-face where it meets the helm is a massive undercut otherwise. Or they do a vertical split and suddenly the eyes are impossible. At least on the ones we’ve seen close up so far.
In fact, probably the horns and the cow-masks are each separate pieces, in addition to the helm itself.
Lumineth art. Unintentionally ironic, since the artist talks about the opportunity to work with white, light and the full color spectrum, and five of the seven pictures that were chosen to be in the article are dark and/or mono-shaded, and another lacks a background altogether, and the 'shards of aetherquartz,' which are also mentioned, only appear in the first pic.
Carlovonsexron wrote: for some reason Elves, despite not being a Mediterranean myth, are often represented as Greco-Roman.
It's a weird contrivance that doesn't just apply to to GW.
I think its because of Atlantis.
It always sounds sort of "elfy" what with being superior and all so the idea that they were settled around the Mediterranean and then influenced technologies and styles of that region fits. That said I've equally seen them with asian and other "exotic to western Europe" influences too.
GW is very much going down quite a strong greek/med pathway at present.
Sotahullu wrote: Am I the only one thinking that Lumineth are kinda looking like some anciet greek army or am I just crazy?
Not more so than the previous High Elves, but certainly carrying that over. The new lot have far more eastern influences in addition to that however.
There is in part indeed the "advanced civilisation of Atlantis" connection - Ulthuan was even located where it would have been, in the Atlantic ocean. The idea of citizen soldiers fits the Greek connection too. Stylistically - rows of spearmen, still with helmets of which the lower part strongly resembles the characteristic classical hoplite gear, and with breastplates and vambraces - they also help appear to be an ancient race by visually resembling, well, an ancient culture. They also share what I consider to be fairly elegant designs, which obviously helps. Oh, and the new ones kind of have minotaurs, I guess there's that too.
These are most likely all in-house. They have many in-house artists (Paul Dainton and Kevin Chin being my favourites personally) and most of them are very, very good. When AoS was starting they did a lot of outsourcing of art which was... not so good.
These are most likely all in-house. They have many in-house artists (Paul Dainton and Kevin Chin being my favourites personally) and most of them are very, very good. When AoS was starting they did a lot of outsourcing of art which was... not so good.
I think this has more to do with them hiring new artists and/or trying to push artists in a combined art "style" which didn't work for everybody.
If you have a look through the Artstation portfolios of the GW artists, you can see their improvements over the years or them switching to their own style.
From the White Dwarf preview on Warhammer Community:
The dead have come to claim the bone tithe in this month’s Tome Celestial. It’s all about Vokmortian’s Tithe Legion, who specialise in claiming immense quantities of bone for their dread master, be it by dark pacts or, er, more direct intervention.
You’ll gain new insights into the Tithe Legion’s history, motives and organisation – as well as painting guides for both Classic and Contrast Methods, and three new warscroll battalions to use in your games.
Dysartes wrote: Have the battalions from this sort of article been useful so far?
Probably only the Slaanesh one, which didn't really need any help at the time, and possibly the Nighthaunt?. I know the Fyreslayer battalions were down grades or sidegrades at best from their battletome companions.
The Stormcast ones were meh, but most of the SCE battletome battalions are also meh. Been awhile since I checked them out though, so if someone knows better, chime in and correct me.
The WD stuff varies a lot - the Slaanesh was outright broken as whilst the "idea" was it was an infantry heavy one that let you take more infantry without losing out on depravity, it in the end just meant if you used it with a keeper heavy list you got even more broken amounts of it.
Lumineth art. Unintentionally ironic, since the artist talks about the opportunity to work with white, light and the full color spectrum, and five of the seven pictures that were chosen to be in the article are dark and/or mono-shaded, and another lacks a background altogether, and the 'shards of aetherquartz,' which are also mentioned, only appear in the first pic.
Well there are a lot of rainbow-esque lights in those artworks.
And this nice overview on Realm of Light which absolutely does not look like a chaos symbol, its just your feeble imagination:
Its set up like the 'wheel' of the Hysh symbol, which is just up and to the left of the map in the same picture.
The rivers between continents look vaguely like runes in places, particularly the central north and south ones, the northern one looks like it has a hammer head facing Xintil.
And this nice overview on Realm of Light which absolutely does not look like a chaos symbol, its just your feeble imagination:
Its set up like the 'wheel' of the Hysh symbol, which is just up and to the left of the map in the same picture.
The rivers between continents look vaguely like runes in places, particularly the central north and south ones, the northern one looks like it has a hammer head facing Xintil.
Except for the City looking thing, as far as I can tell the left and right sides of that map are mirror images of each other.
And this nice overview on Realm of Light which absolutely does not look like a chaos symbol, its just your feeble imagination:
Its set up like the 'wheel' of the Hysh symbol, which is just up and to the left of the map in the same picture.
The rivers between continents look vaguely like runes in places, particularly the central north and south ones, the northern one looks like it has a hammer head facing Xintil.
Except for the City looking thing, as far as I can tell the left and right sides of that map are mirror images of each other.
I believe that 'City looking thing' is just a map compass and not a terrain feature being represented on the map.
And this nice overview on Realm of Light which absolutely does not look like a chaos symbol, its just your feeble imagination:
Its set up like the 'wheel' of the Hysh symbol, which is just up and to the left of the map in the same picture.
The rivers between continents look vaguely like runes in places, particularly the central north and south ones, the northern one looks like it has a hammer head facing Xintil.
Except for the City looking thing, as far as I can tell the left and right sides of that map are mirror images of each other.
Its supposed to be, according to the article:
We have a better sense of what Hysh looks like than most of the other Mortal Realms. Hysh is a symmetrical realm, divided into the Ten Paradises.
Ghaz wrote:I believe that 'City looking thing' is just a map compass and not a terrain feature being represented on the map.
It certainly looks like one. On the twin map, though, its roughly on top of the "Pit of Cathartia,' one of the only specific place names. And I'm not particularly convinced of the functionality of a compass there, so I could go either way on it.
" In 
), presumably core infantry, and presumably core cavalry.
