Beardedragon wrote:
Why are Bad Moonz not worth it anymore? Id guess the only reason Deathskulls would take over Bad Moonz is if you use quality soldiers and Meks. If you have a somewhat quantity of Boys with Shoota or even Morkanauts i would assume Bad Moonz can do just fine and maybe even better

Bad Moons simply does not give you enough to be worthwhile.
(Which is a shame, because i painted all my Orks as Bad Moons. :()

There are only 4 things that are even worth considering using Bad Moons for and all of them are still not good enough:

A SAG Mek can use the double shooting strategem, since we lost our Vigilus Detachment (for tournaments at least), that would be our only option to go full SAG with Big Killa Boss and shooting twice + more dakka. But SAG took a huge hit overall. Personally i`d just go with the DS SAG, at least you get some rerolls there.
And since you will run at least 1 other clan that means 2+ CP for taking a BM detachment.

Lootas are still ok with the shooting twice strategem, but with the point increases to lootas and grot it`s really hard to justify taking them. They eat lots of CP and you had to take more grots than we can pay points for and even that does not protect them all the time.
Only thing worth trying might be tellyporting 15 lootas and hoping you get your points back with 1 turn of shooting twice. But that is an 300 points + 5-6 CP investment. You certainly won`t get those 300+ points back shooting primaris with AP-1.

And if you think about taking 30 shoota boys, the BM trait will just give you about 14 wounds on T4 instead 12. Thats not even 1 more dead Primaris. Sure you get shooting twice, but still, thats not worth it. And everything that gets deleted by massed S4 Shootas is no real problem for Ork(boy)s anyways.
So you will be better of with Goffs, Evil Sunz or even DS for that 6++ if you want just 1 detachment and want to mix boys with buggies and stuff.

At last there are tankbustas, which will delete anything up to a castellan with shooting twice combined with more dakka and the granade strategem, but that means getting in granade range and being in the open, which will lead to the whole squad being deleted after that turn + an investment of 5+ CP.
Regular shooting might work easier, but since you can not use strategems (and abilities right now) in transporters, that means loosing that unit as well.
Might be wort tellyporting 15 BM Tankbustas if you know you`re up against knights, they will take down about 1 knight, but at the cost of 5 CP. (7 CP if you take them in an extra detachment since if you want to be campetetive you will need at least 1 other detachment.)

So overall, their trait works just on limited units, gives way to less to work with and comes with quite a heavy CP tax to do the good stuff.
And everything with less than 20 shots will always be better as DS mathematicly, which is basicly all vehicles and about every other unit we have.
That does not even count in the 6++,ObSec and DS strategems you get. Additionally the only thing that makes BM even worth it is their double shooting strategem, which you can use on only one (infantry) unit per turn. So if you go full BM that makes it even worse.
But hey, if anyone can show me a good way to use my Moon Skulls as Bad Moons again, i`d be happy to give them a comeback.
I run them as BM against newer or unexperienced players from time to time, but from a competetive point of view they are dead to me.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Badmoonz technically wasnt even that good except for Tankbustas fire twice and Lootas.
Lootas are overpriced garbage now even with the badmoonz stuff (they were iffy even with it before) and Tankbustas alone are not worth a badmoonz detachment.

You can still run them if you got a lot of dakka but the issue is most ork units actually DONT have high rate of fire, its just boyz/lootas that tend to fire 20+ dice everything else barely reaches 10 and per the math you need ~12 for badmoonz to outshine Deathskullz....and even then its barely outshining them.

I really wish badmoonz was reroll 1s to hit period. THAT would have been glorious. I hate kultures that completely dont even affect some units in a codex. Same problem with Goffs, but Goffs at least affect enough stuff to still dedicate part of the army to it.

Boyz with shootas
Lootas
Tank bustas
Flash Gitz
Chinorks with Rattler kannons (anything with rattler kannon really).

some of those units would already fill out the bulk of your army and its not like the rest of your army shooting less doesnt still benefit from rerolls of 1.

I hear what you guys are saying though. I wanted to make some Bad Moonz soldiers for 9th but i havent started painting them yet. Maybe ill go Evil Sunz or Deathskulls instead.

Still, having massed fire as Bad Moonz sounded fun

If you roll a lot of Boyz, some tank bustas in a Chinork with rattlerkannons, and maybe some Flash Gitz or Lootas (Lootas are still useful imo) then i still see bad moonz as being useful.

Next to that they have "Showing off" which is insanely powerful if you use it on a shooting unit.

Flash Gits aren't Bad moons, so they can't shoot twice.

Bad Moons are garbage. You need 18 shots just to expect 1 extra hit from those re-roll ones. It's a joke.

Beardedragon wrote:
Boyz with shootas
Lootas
Tank bustas
Flash Gitz
Chinorks with Rattler kannons (anything with rattler kannon really).

Boyz are not a great shooting unit to begin with
Lootas are expensive (300 for a unit) and require at least another 150 points worth of gretchin to keep them alive for one turn probably more. Not only does this cost almost all your CP, it also conflicts with taking shoota boyz
Tank bustas are a decent unit, but they die turn after they arrive. Also tons of CP required.
Flash gits can't ever be bad moons.
Chinorks with rattler cannons have an average of 14 shots and therefore benefit more from deff skulls than they do from bad moons, especially if you replace the big shoota with a KMB.

I hear what you guys are saying though. I wanted to make some Bad Moonz soldiers for 9th but i havent started painting them yet. Maybe ill go Evil Sunz or Deathskulls instead.

Honest advice, just paint them as whatever and pick the whatever culture you want to support your army. I paint all my units as whatever clan I feel like when painting them, some even have mixed clans within one unit.
If you like yellow and don't feel like pulling your hair out when painting that color, go for it. Pick whatever clan GW didn't feth up for your games - your opponents won't be able to tell ork clans apart anyways.

I play primarily Bad Moonz, and here's what works for me:

30 Boyz (shoota or not, because you're really looking to use Extra Stikkbombs) they do good everything work. Slugga boyz actually can be surprising in 8th if you managed to wrap and trap an unit.

Lootas (no explanation needed)
Tankbustas (same as Lootas)
Anything with a lot of Kustom Mega Weaponry (Mork, SJD, Dredds with all KMB) just makes them more safe and reliable.
All the flyers, They all pump out a solid number of shots, and the reroll 1s help them. It's not like you're losing anything by taking a burna bomma as any other clan, as we all know what it is there to do now.

While I know Bad Moonz isn't the most competitive out there, I think you can surprise your opponent with the consistency of your shooting if you pick your targets right.

I see a lot of people always talking up a single unit being your giant CP dump, but I usually find it's best to use More Dakka on one unit, use Showing Off on a separate unit, and more stikkbombs on a third. Same expenditure in a turn, but it varies your threat presentation, and I find it makes your enemies entire line shrink back from you, instead of blowing a huge hole in one flank.

Lootloader wrote:
...but I usually find it's best to use More Dakka on one unit, use Showing Off on a separate unit, and more stikkbombs on a third. Same expenditure in a turn, but it varies your threat presentation, and I find it makes your enemies entire line shrink back from you, instead of blowing a huge hole in one flank.

By using More Dakka and Showing Off on two different units, you're losing the benefit of a second round of shooting with More Dakka. I can't think of any situation where it's worth it to shoot yourself in the foot this way.

Both more dakka and more stikkbombs can also be used by other Clans.

Hell, Freebootas can be hitting on 4s or better.

It's a major misnomer Bad Moons have consistent shooting. Hell, they lose out to Evil Suns (Visions in the smoke), Deathskulls (2-3 command re-rolls PER unit), Freebootas (+1 to hit proc).

They are no longer a good clan in any competitive sense. The loss of massed CP, and ways of protecting their shoot twice units have shelved them until the next codex.

well.. i started not long ago and my army is so far comprised of little more than 1000 points of Goff painted units.

Mainly slugga boys, a pain boy, some mega nobs, nobs, a Big mek with KFF, weirdboy and a Deff Dread.

of the units i have yet to finish painting is Ghaz who will be done soon (and 4 Grot tanks i got for free from Kromlech + a Trukk i have yet to assemble)

Next to that I have a Chinork thats unpainted, but i dont know in which clan i should place him.


My idea was to make a small Goff Patrol or something with Ghaz, and then use another clan as the bulk of my army (bad moonz, Evil Sunz, Deathskulls). My first thought was Bad Moonz so i could have some tank bustas placed in a Chinork with rattler kannons teleporting in on round 2 to devastate the backline tanks or units, destroying my boys at a distance. Ive noticed that since much of my army is mainly melee focused, i get tarpitted in the middle of the board. I need ranged units or units like the Chinork with units inside of it to shoot the backline. Obviously i also need trukks but i only got a trukk package today.

Shoota boyz could also be useful i think.. i dont know.

But if Bad Moonz is suddenly so bad (why are they bad again? nothing much except Grots and lootas cost have been changed from 8th to 9th? they seemed good in 8th) then i need to go either the Evil Sunz route, or Deathskulls.

Im not sure which honestly.

Beardedragon wrote:
well.. i started not long ago and my army is so far comprised of little more than 1000 points of Goff painted units.

Mainly slugga boys, a pain boy, some mega nobs, nobs, a Big mek with KFF, weirdboy and a Deff Dread.

of the units i have yet to finish painting is Ghaz who will be done soon (and 4 Grot tanks i got for free from Kromlech + a Trukk i have yet to assemble)

Next to that I have a Chinork thats unpainted, but i dont know in which clan i should place him.


My idea was to make a small Goff Patrol or something with Ghaz, and then use another clan as the bulk of my army (bad moonz, Evil Sunz, Deathskulls). My first thought was Bad Moonz so i could have some tank bustas placed in a Chinork with rattler kannons teleporting in on round 2 to devastate the backline tanks or units, destroying my boys at a distance. Ive noticed that since much of my army is mainly melee focused, i get tarpitted in the middle of the board. I need ranged units or units like the Chinork with units inside of it to shoot the backline. Obviously i also need trukks but i only got a trukk package today.

Shoota boyz could also be useful i think.. i dont know.

But if Bad Moonz is suddenly so bad (why are they bad again? nothing much except Grots and lootas cost have been changed from 8th to 9th? they seemed good in 8th) then i need to go either the Evil Sunz route, or Deathskulls.

Im not sure which honestly.

Bad moons died when our dirt cheap battalions died and the CP that they generated went away. Along with Lootas and Grots becoming relatively very expensive.

If you want a "hammer" for your Goff detachment, I would recommend a decent sized mob of Killsaw MANz. They tend to vaporise everything they come into melee range of, especially when backed by Ghaz, a Biggest Boss or the MANz melee strat.

tulun wrote:
Both more dakka and more stikkbombs can also be used by other Clans.

Hell, Freebootas can be hitting on 4s or better.

It's a major misnomer Bad Moons have consistent shooting. Hell, they lose out to Evil Suns (Visions in the smoke), Deathskulls (2-3 command re-rolls PER unit), Freebootas (+1 to hit proc).

They are no longer a good clan in any competitive sense. The loss of massed CP, and ways of protecting their shoot twice units have shelved them until the next codex.

This. Their WL trait is largely redundant now that we have the biggest boss upgrade, their relic adds questionable value now that the biker HQ's have been relegated to legends since the foot HQ's will get limited use of it, while the strat is no longer viable with most units that used it.

Kind of sucks to see almost half the klanz of the Ork codex (more if you want to include subkulturs) being shelved. Based on what we've seen for the new Necron dynasty rules they'll give more depth the next time around than just 6+ FNP and reroll ones to hit in shooting.

Lootloader wrote:
I play primarily Bad Moonz, and here's what works for me:

30 Boyz (shoota or not, because you're really looking to use Extra Stikkbombs) they do good everything work. Slugga boyz actually can be surprising in 8th if you managed to wrap and trap an unit.

Lootas (no explanation needed)
Tankbustas (same as Lootas)
Anything with a lot of Kustom Mega Weaponry (Mork, SJD, Dredds with all KMB) just makes them more safe and reliable.
All the flyers, They all pump out a solid number of shots, and the reroll 1s help them. It's not like you're losing anything by taking a burna bomma as any other clan, as we all know what it is there to do now.

BM Dakkajet vs. DS Dakkajet is 2,06 vs. 2,04 dead Primaris, so no real difference here. Also you get that 6++ and your trait works all the time.
All other planes and vehicles are worse if you do the math. DS is always better.
That "safety" bonus for BM is a trap. That occasional wound does not matter at all, and that single DS reroll is enough for everything KMB and the like 99% of the time.

Nym wrote:By using More Dakka and Showing Off on two different units, you're losing the benefit of a second round of shooting with More Dakka. I can't think of any situation where it's worth it to shoot yourself in the foot this way.

Well it can make sense if you want to get one unit BS5+ against -1 to hit and shoot twice with some other unit you really need to shoot twice.
But moar dakka is actually not that good if you make the math, unless you would hit on 6+ otherwise or really need to max out the damage. It´s less than a 6% boost for 2 CP.

Beardedragon wrote:My first thought was Bad Moonz so i could have some tank bustas placed in a Chinork with rattler kannons teleporting in on round 2 to devastate the backline tanks or units, destroying my boys at a distance.

You can`t use abilities and strategems inside transports, which makes them quite worse and you can`t use showing off.

Beardedragon wrote:Ive noticed that since much of my army is mainly melee focused, i get tarpitted in the middle of the board.

Thats the wrong approach, since you want to control the middle objectives with boys.
"I`m not tarpitted in here with you, you are tarpitted in here with me!"

 Grotrebel wrote:

Lootloader wrote:
I play primarily Bad Moonz, and here's what works for me:

30 Boyz (shoota or not, because you're really looking to use Extra Stikkbombs) they do good everything work. Slugga boyz actually can be surprising in 8th if you managed to wrap and trap an unit.

Lootas (no explanation needed)
Tankbustas (same as Lootas)
Anything with a lot of Kustom Mega Weaponry (Mork, SJD, Dredds with all KMB) just makes them more safe and reliable.
All the flyers, They all pump out a solid number of shots, and the reroll 1s help them. It's not like you're losing anything by taking a burna bomma as any other clan, as we all know what it is there to do now.

BM Dakkajet vs. DS Dakkajet is 2,06 vs. 2,04 dead Primaris, so no real difference here. Also you get that 6++ and your trait works all the time.
All other planes and vehicles are worse if you do the math. DS is always better.
That "safety" bonus for BM is a trap. That occasional wound does not matter at all, and that single DS reroll is enough for everything KMB and the like 99% of the time.

Nym wrote:By using More Dakka and Showing Off on two different units, you're losing the benefit of a second round of shooting with More Dakka. I can't think of any situation where it's worth it to shoot yourself in the foot this way.

Well it can make sense if you want to get one unit BS5+ against -1 to hit and shoot twice with some other unit you really need to shoot twice.
But moar dakka is actually not that good if you make the math, unless you would hit on 6+ otherwise or really need to max out the damage. It´s less than a 6% boost for 2 CP.

Beardedragon wrote:My first thought was Bad Moonz so i could have some tank bustas placed in a Chinork with rattler kannons teleporting in on round 2 to devastate the backline tanks or units, destroying my boys at a distance.

You can`t use abilities and strategems inside transports, which makes them quite worse and you can`t use showing off.

Beardedragon wrote:Ive noticed that since much of my army is mainly melee focused, i get tarpitted in the middle of the board.

Thats the wrong approach, since you want to control the middle objectives with boys.
"I`m not tarpitted in here with you, you are tarpitted in here with me!"

I cant use stratagems, correct, but both my Tank bustas and my Chinork Rattler kannon can still reroll their 1s if i went Bad Moonz.

And if i run very little ranged units, then i cant at all, deal with backlines heavy firing in to my lines. Yea if im in combat i cant get ranged nuked but often they just retreat backwards once after combat, leaving me exposed to getting killed, or i dont have room to get all my squads in.

there are plenty of ways for them to destroy me even though im in melee, and i need something that can terrorize their backlines.

I'd like to point towards the discussion rules.

The facts are clearly stacked against bad moons and deffskulls are without any doubt better or equal for almost every unit in the codex and provides an irrelevant buff to all others.The combos that have kept bad moons competitive have disappeared in 9th, with the exception suicide tankbustas which mostly was just an outlet for lists who didn't have any other way to capitalize on their 18CP.

It might sound harsh, but from a competitive point of view there currently is no reason to run bad moons, and therefore there is no need to discuss this any further. This is not a matter of opinion.

If you want to discuss how to make bad moons work despite this, that's a different topic and a discussion worth having, but we don't need to go in circles over something this clear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lootloader wrote:
I see a lot of people always talking up a single unit being your giant CP dump, but I usually find it's best to use More Dakka on one unit, use Showing Off on a separate unit, and more stikkbombs on a third. Same expenditure in a turn, but it varies your threat presentation, and I find it makes your enemies entire line shrink back from you, instead of blowing a huge hole in one flank.

Unless you are overkilling your target, stacking all stratagems on the same unit is better, because their buff multiplies. For example, Moar Dakka increases your damage to 116.66%, showing off to
200%. Both on the same unit increase your damage to 233.33%.

In response to previous posts to my request for advice regarding Harlequins, I'll be sticking to a buggy list partly because I feel that going mass boyz will be too tedious and less flexible with regards to missions. As such, here is my draft list for review before I finalize it for next week:


Keep in mind this list is partly to do with model limitations, which is why I haven't taken a maxed out unit of Kustom Boosta Blastas. I guess the main question for me is if a Big Mek with KFF would be worth it at all given that everything in my army already has a 6+ invuln, and that a lot of the wounds I'll be suffering will be likely from mortal wounds which would bypass that anyways. There's also the issue that I don't think a Big Mek with KFF would be able to cover enough of my buggies without blowing the strat to extend the range T1, while also falling behind the rest of my army. Also, my logic behind the Shokk Jump Dragsta is that they're basically there for potential character sniping and contesting his backline objectives, since Harlequins have a limited model count and will likely not have much of a backfield that can withstand a dragsta's shooting and a charge backed with Ramming Speed. The Kommandos are there to help get Linebreaker and Engage On All Fronts, while also acting as additional backup for dragstas on the prowl.

The trukk boyz are there as a tax, though I was considering taking a patrol and cutting out the troop tax for some more buggies (though that would require proxying probably).

Let me know what ya ladz think!

 Jidmah wrote:
I'd like to point towards the discussion rules.

The facts are clearly stacked against bad moons and deffskulls are without any doubt better or equal for almost every unit in the codex and provides an irrelevant buff to all others.The combos that have kept bad moons competitive have disappeared in 9th, with the exception suicide tankbustas which mostly was just an outlet for lists who didn't have any other way to capitalize on their 18CP.

It might sound harsh, but from a competitive point of view there currently is no reason to run bad moons, and therefore there is no need to discuss this any further. This is not a matter of opinion.

If you want to discuss how to make bad moons work despite this, that's a different topic and a discussion worth having, but we don't need to go in circles over something this clear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lootloader wrote:
I see a lot of people always talking up a single unit being your giant CP dump, but I usually find it's best to use More Dakka on one unit, use Showing Off on a separate unit, and more stikkbombs on a third. Same expenditure in a turn, but it varies your threat presentation, and I find it makes your enemies entire line shrink back from you, instead of blowing a huge hole in one flank.

Unless you are overkilling your target, stacking all stratagems on the same unit is better, because their buff multiplies. For example, Moar Dakka increases your damage to 116.66%, showing off to
200%. Both on the same unit increase your damage to 233.33%.

im new and im asking to be convinced, and at first you guys didnt convince me.

So yes, i can, if i please, ask how Bad Moonz can work, in a thread related to what is good and bad within the Orkish army. The entire thread is literally about what is good and what isnt, what works how well and why. This isnt going in circles, its debating. Furthermore, i am more adamant on hearing arguments against bad moonz because thats what i initially wanted to go for. Having to change over to Evil Sunz or Deathskulls thus require convincing.

And no, its not clear, not to me, who is new. Not to me who dont even play Bad Moonz and is looking for arguments as to why i shouldnt go Bad Moonz. Ive seen plenty of 8th edition videos of Bad Moonz being good, so when suddenly 9th hits, and i dont see any real changes to shooting and the only changes being grots are more expensive and lootas are too, that made me question why on earth Bad Moonz should suddenly go from being good to terrible.


So maybe it makes sense to you guys, but it didnt to me. And id like to have more than one guy stating why they suck ass so i kept on till i was convinced.

Which i became after my last message but what ever. I now get they arent good and i should possibly go death skulls.

like your own post: "The facts are clearly stacked against bad moons and deffskulls are without any doubt better or equal for almost every unit in the codex and provides an irrelevant buff to all others.The combos that have kept bad moons competitive have disappeared in 9th, with the exception suicide tankbustas which mostly was just an outlet for lists who didn't have any other way to capitalize on their 18CP." Which also helped to clarify to a noob (me) why Bad Moonz wouldnt work.


EDIT:
Was your post even directed towards me? im so confused. i thought you talked about me asking about Bad Moonz. If it wasnt then im sorry and ive made a terrible mistake.

Nym wrote:

Lootloader wrote:
...but I usually find it's best to use More Dakka on one unit, use Showing Off on a separate unit, and more stikkbombs on a third. Same expenditure in a turn, but it varies your threat presentation, and I find it makes your enemies entire line shrink back from you, instead of blowing a huge hole in one flank.

By using More Dakka and Showing Off on two different units, you're losing the benefit of a second round of shooting with More Dakka. I can't think of any situation where it's worth it to shoot yourself in the foot this way.

A good example being that Showing Off can only be applied to infantry, whereas More Dakka can be applied to any unit. So something I've been doing recently is using Showing Off on my Tankbustas after they disembark from a transport, while I use More Dakka on my morkanaut. The Tankbustas are going to kill whatever they shoot at 80% of the time anyway without the buff, so it's just overkill. That's just one easy example, but there can be many more based upon unit placement and position, enemy army tricks, etc etc. I'm in no way suggesting it's the right way to go all the time, but it has value.

Jidmah wrote:I'd like to point towards the discussion rules.

The facts are clearly stacked against bad moons and deffskulls are without any doubt better or equal for almost every unit in the codex and provides an irrelevant buff to all others.The combos that have kept bad moons competitive have disappeared in 9th, with the exception suicide tankbustas which mostly was just an outlet for lists who didn't have any other way to capitalize on their 18CP.

It might sound harsh, but from a competitive point of view there currently is no reason to run bad moons, and therefore there is no need to discuss this any further. This is not a matter of opinion.

If you want to discuss how to make bad moons work despite this, that's a different topic and a discussion worth having, but we don't need to go in circles over something this clear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lootloader wrote:
I see a lot of people always talking up a single unit being your giant CP dump, but I usually find it's best to use More Dakka on one unit, use Showing Off on a separate unit, and more stikkbombs on a third. Same expenditure in a turn, but it varies your threat presentation, and I find it makes your enemies entire line shrink back from you, instead of blowing a huge hole in one flank.

Unless you are overkilling your target, stacking all stratagems on the same unit is better, because their buff multiplies. For example, Moar Dakka increases your damage to 116.66%, showing off to
200%. Both on the same unit increase your damage to 233.33%.

I wasn't meaning to derail the conversation so hard into Bad Moonz territory, only more so a few people had asked questions about it, so I was trying to add a bit to it. Sorry if I've broken any discussion rules. I certainly wasn't implying that they were the best, or the right call, only that they still have play to them, and you could do worse.

And yes, for the strat buffing there is no mathematical denying that it pays off, but as I already said, if your unit was already going to delete the enemy unit, why pay 2 CP to delete it harder? Save the CP for a further trick down the road, or use it to buff something else up.

Edit: spelling

Beardedragon wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I'd like to point towards the discussion rules.

The facts are clearly stacked against bad moons and deffskulls are without any doubt better or equal for almost every unit in the codex and provides an irrelevant buff to all others.The combos that have kept bad moons competitive have disappeared in 9th, with the exception suicide tankbustas which mostly was just an outlet for lists who didn't have any other way to capitalize on their 18CP.

It might sound harsh, but from a competitive point of view there currently is no reason to run bad moons, and therefore there is no need to discuss this any further. This is not a matter of opinion.

If you want to discuss how to make bad moons work despite this, that's a different topic and a discussion worth having, but we don't need to go in circles over something this clear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lootloader wrote:
I see a lot of people always talking up a single unit being your giant CP dump, but I usually find it's best to use More Dakka on one unit, use Showing Off on a separate unit, and more stikkbombs on a third. Same expenditure in a turn, but it varies your threat presentation, and I find it makes your enemies entire line shrink back from you, instead of blowing a huge hole in one flank.

Unless you are overkilling your target, stacking all stratagems on the same unit is better, because their buff multiplies. For example, Moar Dakka increases your damage to 116.66%, showing off to
200%. Both on the same unit increase your damage to 233.33%.

im new and im asking to be convinced, and at first you guys didnt convince me.

So yes, i can, if i bloody well please, ask how Bad Moonz can work, in a thread related to what is good and bad within the Orkish army. The entire thread is literally about what is good and what isnt, what works how well and why. This isnt going in circles, its debating. Furthermore, i am more adamant on hearing arguments against bad moonz because thats what i initially wanted to go for. Having to change over to Evil Sunz or Deathskulls thus require convincing.

And no, dude, its not clear, not to me, who is new. Not to me who dont even play Bad Moonz and is looking for arguments as to why i shouldnt go Bad Moonz. Ive seen plenty of 8th edition videos of Bad Moonz being good, so when suddenly 9th hits, and i dont see any real changes to shooting and the only changes being grots are more expensive and lootas are too, that made me question why on earth Bad Moonz should suddenly go from being good to terrible.


So maybe it makes sense to you guys, but it didnt to me. And id like to have more than one guy stating why they suck ass so i kept on till i was convinced.

Which i became after my last message but what ever. I now get they arent good and i should possibly go death skulls.

like your own post: "The facts are clearly stacked against bad moons and deffskulls are without any doubt better or equal for almost every unit in the codex and provides an irrelevant buff to all others.The combos that have kept bad moons competitive have disappeared in 9th, with the exception suicide tankbustas which mostly was just an outlet for lists who didn't have any other way to capitalize on their 18CP." Which also helped to clarify to a noob why Bad Moonz wouldnt work.

Look Beardeddragon, with all due respect, the OP (Jidmah) made this thread with specific rules, especially with the context of how faction threads work now with the 9th ed release, so you becoming indignant with the conversation being nudged back on track is kinda rude especially when people have been giving you a lot of reasons that you yourself admit eventually convinced you to accepting that BM is overall not competitive. I feel like given how little you know about Orks in general that you should read more thoroughly before you post and get a few games in first, it's one thing to be excited and want to find out the combos immediately, but without practical experience, you won't really see why veteran Ork players opinions seem to be so set until you play and see the basis behind those opinions.

 Grimskul wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
I'd like to point towards the discussion rules.

The facts are clearly stacked against bad moons and deffskulls are without any doubt better or equal for almost every unit in the codex and provides an irrelevant buff to all others.The combos that have kept bad moons competitive have disappeared in 9th, with the exception suicide tankbustas which mostly was just an outlet for lists who didn't have any other way to capitalize on their 18CP.

It might sound harsh, but from a competitive point of view there currently is no reason to run bad moons, and therefore there is no need to discuss this any further. This is not a matter of opinion.

If you want to discuss how to make bad moons work despite this, that's a different topic and a discussion worth having, but we don't need to go in circles over something this clear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lootloader wrote:
I see a lot of people always talking up a single unit being your giant CP dump, but I usually find it's best to use More Dakka on one unit, use Showing Off on a separate unit, and more stikkbombs on a third. Same expenditure in a turn, but it varies your threat presentation, and I find it makes your enemies entire line shrink back from you, instead of blowing a huge hole in one flank.

Unless you are overkilling your target, stacking all stratagems on the same unit is better, because their buff multiplies. For example, Moar Dakka increases your damage to 116.66%, showing off to
200%. Both on the same unit increase your damage to 233.33%.

im new and im asking to be convinced, and at first you guys didnt convince me.

So yes, i can, if i bloody well please, ask how Bad Moonz can work, in a thread related to what is good and bad within the Orkish army. The entire thread is literally about what is good and what isnt, what works how well and why. This isnt going in circles, its debating. Furthermore, i am more adamant on hearing arguments against bad moonz because thats what i initially wanted to go for. Having to change over to Evil Sunz or Deathskulls thus require convincing.

And no, dude, its not clear, not to me, who is new. Not to me who dont even play Bad Moonz and is looking for arguments as to why i shouldnt go Bad Moonz. Ive seen plenty of 8th edition videos of Bad Moonz being good, so when suddenly 9th hits, and i dont see any real changes to shooting and the only changes being grots are more expensive and lootas are too, that made me question why on earth Bad Moonz should suddenly go from being good to terrible.


So maybe it makes sense to you guys, but it didnt to me. And id like to have more than one guy stating why they suck ass so i kept on till i was convinced.

Which i became after my last message but what ever. I now get they arent good and i should possibly go death skulls.

like your own post: "The facts are clearly stacked against bad moons and deffskulls are without any doubt better or equal for almost every unit in the codex and provides an irrelevant buff to all others.The combos that have kept bad moons competitive have disappeared in 9th, with the exception suicide tankbustas which mostly was just an outlet for lists who didn't have any other way to capitalize on their 18CP." Which also helped to clarify to a noob why Bad Moonz wouldnt work.

Look Beardeddragon, with all due respect, the OP (Jidmah) made this thread with specific rules, especially with the context of how faction threads work now with the 9th ed release, so you becoming indignant with the conversation being nudged back on track is kinda rude especially when people have been giving you a lot of reasons that you yourself admit eventually convinced you to accepting that BM is overall not competitive. I feel like given how little you know about Orks in general that you should read more thoroughly before you post and get a few games in first, it's one thing to be excited and want to find out the combos immediately, but without practical experience, you won't really see why veteran Ork players opinions seem to be so set until you play and see the basis behind those opinions.

I do have a few games in, just not as Bad Moonz and clearly i never will because they suck and i dont want to go for them.

Also i dont know which rules i broke? i did not intend to break rules. Im not talking about army compositions, im asking for arguments as to why Bad Moonz sucks.

I wouldnt have been convinced if i hadnt kept on as one person stating an opinion isnt enough to deter me away from thinking a specific thing. I have strong opinions about things and it takes convincing for me to accept im wrong. I was not ready to have Bad moonz being terrible as i had already set myself up to using them as a main force. No one wants to be proven wrong, but i clearly was proven wrong.

But i wouldnt have known i was wrong untill my last message. But correct, theres no need to debate it any further as i am convinced. I didnt really need anyone telling me not to debate it any further to.. not debate it any further though.

Lootloader wrote:
I wasn't meaning to derail the conversation so hard into Bad Moonz territory, only more so a few people had asked questions about it, so I was trying to add a bit to it. Sorry if I've broken any discussion rules. I certainly wasn't implying that they were the best, or the right call, only that they still have play to them, and you could do worse.

And yes, for the strat buffing there is no mathematical denying that it pays off, but as I already said, if your unit was already going to delete the enemy unit, why pay 2 CP to delete it harder? Save the CP for a further trick down the road, or use it to buff something else up.

Edit: spelling

This wasn't directed at you. But yeah, no need for overkill. Keep in mind that "showin' off" allows you to target two different units, most of the time there is no reason to not shoot both with the benefit of moar dakka.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Beardedragon wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
Look Beardeddragon, with all due respect, the OP (Jidmah) made this thread with specific rules, especially with the context of how faction threads work now with the 9th ed release, so you becoming indignant with the conversation being nudged back on track is kinda rude especially when people have been giving you a lot of reasons that you yourself admit eventually convinced you to accepting that BM is overall not competitive. I feel like given how little you know about Orks in general that you should read more thoroughly before you post and get a few games in first, it's one thing to be excited and want to find out the combos immediately, but without practical experience, you won't really see why veteran Ork players opinions seem to be so set until you play and see the basis behind those opinions.

I do have a few games in, just not as Bad Moonz and clearly i never will because they suck and i dont want to go for them.

Also i dont know which rules i broke? i did not intend to break rules. Im not talking about army compositions, im asking for arguments as to why Bad Moonz sucks.

I wouldnt have been convinced if i hadnt kept on as one person stating an opinion isnt enough to deter me away from thinking a specific thing. I have strong opinions about things and it takes convincing for me to accept im wrong. I was not ready to have Bad moonz being terrible as i had already set myself up to using them as a main force. No one wants to be proven wrong, but i clearly was proven wrong.

But i wouldnt have known i was wrong untill my last message. But correct, theres no need to debate it any further as i am convinced. I didnt really need anyone telling me not to debate it any further to.. not debate it any further though.

It's not our job to convince you to change your opinion. As you can probably tell from my signature, I'm not a fan of people with irrational and baseless opinions.

This is a forum for discussion. Discussions work by providing arguments and counter-arguments. You are expected to back up your arguments.
Deathskulls vs Bad Moons is math and logic, it's not an opinion. You get at least two re-rolls for each unit potentially a third for rolling damage, in addition to other benefits. A bad moons unit gets one re-roll for every six shots. This has been explained to you by multiple people multiple times. You clearly refused to accept this, which prompted me to remind you there is no point arguing hard facts because they don't match your opinion. It also would have been good form to do the math yourself (or ask how to do it) before simply claiming that certain units would awesome as bad moons.

And shooting twice is infantry only...

Only shooting infantry worth mention are tankbustas and lootas only.

Don ´ t even thing about shooting shootaboyz twice. Twice nothing is still nothing.

Jidmah wrote:

Lootloader wrote:
I wasn't meaning to derail the conversation so hard into Bad Moonz territory, only more so a few people had asked questions about it, so I was trying to add a bit to it. Sorry if I've broken any discussion rules. I certainly wasn't implying that they were the best, or the right call, only that they still have play to them, and you could do worse.

And yes, for the strat buffing there is no mathematical denying that it pays off, but as I already said, if your unit was already going to delete the enemy unit, why pay 2 CP to delete it harder? Save the CP for a further trick down the road, or use it to buff something else up.

Edit: spelling

This wasn't directed at you. But yeah, no need for overkill. Keep in mind that "showin' off" allows you to target two different units, most of the time there is no reason to not shoot both with the benefit of moar dakka.

Ok cool, was worried I had fallen in to a blunder I was unaware of. Yeah, Showing Off on a More Dakka'd unit at two separate targets is like THE bread and butter combo. It's just not always the tactically best in my experience. Lot's of times it's been overkill to both targets, whereas then on an unit elsewhere on the board I end up short on damage output, so I have started to really spread out the buffs to eke out that slight advantage. That's the beauty of Orks, with the right units, you throw so many dice, the averages tend to really come out.

Tomsug wrote:And shooting twice is infantry only...

Only shooting infantry worth mention are tankbustas and lootas only.

Don ´ t even thing about shooting shootaboyz twice. Twice nothing is still nothing.

This hits close to home for me. I remember the weekend that the ork codex released for 8th, I played a game against an Ad Mech opponent. He had a vanguard unit in cover, and I shot 30 Shoota Boyz twice at the same unit, and just BARELY cleared it. I learned not to waste the CP on Shoota boyz after that.

In theory, you could have a unit of nobz shooting a bunch of skorcha or rokkits twice, or have burnas do a double-barbecue, but sadly all those units are pretty bad.

 Jidmah wrote:

Lootloader wrote:
I wasn't meaning to derail the conversation so hard into Bad Moonz territory, only more so a few people had asked questions about it, so I was trying to add a bit to it. Sorry if I've broken any discussion rules. I certainly wasn't implying that they were the best, or the right call, only that they still have play to them, and you could do worse.

And yes, for the strat buffing there is no mathematical denying that it pays off, but as I already said, if your unit was already going to delete the enemy unit, why pay 2 CP to delete it harder? Save the CP for a further trick down the road, or use it to buff something else up.

Edit: spelling

This wasn't directed at you. But yeah, no need for overkill. Keep in mind that "showin' off" allows you to target two different units, most of the time there is no reason to not shoot both with the benefit of moar dakka.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Beardedragon wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
Look Beardeddragon, with all due respect, the OP (Jidmah) made this thread with specific rules, especially with the context of how faction threads work now with the 9th ed release, so you becoming indignant with the conversation being nudged back on track is kinda rude especially when people have been giving you a lot of reasons that you yourself admit eventually convinced you to accepting that BM is overall not competitive. I feel like given how little you know about Orks in general that you should read more thoroughly before you post and get a few games in first, it's one thing to be excited and want to find out the combos immediately, but without practical experience, you won't really see why veteran Ork players opinions seem to be so set until you play and see the basis behind those opinions.

I do have a few games in, just not as Bad Moonz and clearly i never will because they suck and i dont want to go for them.

Also i dont know which rules i broke? i did not intend to break rules. Im not talking about army compositions, im asking for arguments as to why Bad Moonz sucks.

I wouldnt have been convinced if i hadnt kept on as one person stating an opinion isnt enough to deter me away from thinking a specific thing. I have strong opinions about things and it takes convincing for me to accept im wrong. I was not ready to have Bad moonz being terrible as i had already set myself up to using them as a main force. No one wants to be proven wrong, but i clearly was proven wrong.

But i wouldnt have known i was wrong untill my last message. But correct, theres no need to debate it any further as i am convinced. I didnt really need anyone telling me not to debate it any further to.. not debate it any further though.

It's not our job to convince you to change your opinion. As you can probably tell from my signature, I'm not a fan of people with irrational and baseless opinions.

This is a forum for discussion. Discussions work by providing arguments and counter-arguments. You are expected to back up your arguments.
Deathskulls vs Bad Moons is math and logic, it's not an opinion. You get at least two re-rolls for each unit potentially a third for rolling damage, in addition to other benefits. A bad moons unit gets one re-roll for every six shots. This has been explained to you by multiple people multiple times. You clearly refused to accept this, which prompted me to remind you there is no point arguing hard facts because they don't match your opinion.

So i suck at debating what do you want me to do.

But whos going in circles now? I already accepted it earlier yet here you are explaining it to me again. I had already moved on.

Also as long as i cant wrap my head around that math "fact" (i state "fact" because people sometimes think what they're saying is a fact when it isnt) then i cant convince myself its correct or not.

Put it this way, i cant tell if thats a fact or not and i suck at math to begin with. One person states: its a math fact that DeathSkulls are better than Bad Moonz due to rerolling ones contra each unit being able to roll one die in each phase of Shooting phase/close range.

I think: Sounds interesting but i cant disprove nor varify if its correct, not from my computer chair here anyway. A person stating hes making a fact, doesnt always make it a fact. In this case i would need more people to say: yea, this is correct which would make me give in, which i did.

And quite clearly people agree with the consensus that Death skulls make more sense mathmatically speaking, so i agree.
But i have the right to not trust people right away. Be honest, you've been on the forum for a long time, i can see you have many posts. Have all the people you've responded to been correct in their assumptions at all times? Have you never responded to someone who you thought were wrong? You probably have met people that were wrong on this forum, and i wouldnt know if you were correct or not.

so i figured: fine, i accept your answer, but what does others say?

And then suddenly someone starts talking about a Bad Moonz list working and i thought: okay hey, so they do work? I was never looking for hardcore competitive just something i can win sometimes with in my local game store. So when someone starts listing a Bad Moonz clan and how they can work, that made me think that maybe Bad Moonz are just somewhat okayish (but outshined by DS and ES) but not directly terrible.

hence why the posts became more numberous from my side than what i intended




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tomsug wrote:
And shooting twice is infantry only...

Only shooting infantry worth mention are tankbustas and lootas only.

Don ´ t even thing about shooting shootaboyz twice. Twice nothing is still nothing.

This too is very good evidence because i intended to use my Chinork warkopta with Rattler Kannons and get 2 Chinorks total and use them as Gunships. I forgot they couldnt use the shooting twice stratagem (they still get reroll 1s but still) so thats another point to make towards me not wanting to use Bad Moonz because what i wanted to do, cant be done anymore. not as well as i wanted at least.

 Grimskul wrote:
In response to previous posts to my request for advice regarding Harlequins, I'll be sticking to a buggy list partly because I feel that going mass boyz will be too tedious and less flexible with regards to missions. As such, here is my draft list for review before I finalize it for next week:

Spoiler:

Overall CP: 12+1-4 = 9 CP

Ork Deffskullz Battalion Detachment (3CP Refunded because of Warlord):

HQ - 208

Deffkilla Wartrike with Gork's Roar - 125

Warboss with Killa Klaw, Biggest Boss Upgrade, Attack Squig, Kombi-Rokkit
Warlord Trait: Follow Me Ladz! - 83

Troops - 255

10 Ork Shoota Boyz with Nob + Big Choppa - 85

10 Ork Shoota Boyz with Nob + Big Choppa - 85

10 Ork Shoota Boyz with Nob + Big Choppa - 85

Dedicated Transports - 195

3 x Trukk - 195

Elites - 135

5 Kommandos, Nob - 45

5 Kommandos, Nob - 45

5 Kommandos, Nob - 45

Fast Attack - 510

2 x Mega-Trakk Skrapjets with Korkscrew - 220

2 x Kustom Boosta Blasta - 180

2 x Shokk Jump Dragsta with Gyroscopic Whirlygig - 220

Heavy Support - 160

2 Smasha Gunz - 80

Keep in mind this list is partly to do with model limitations, which is why I haven't taken a maxed out unit of Kustom Boosta Blastas. I guess the main question for me is if a Big Mek with KFF would be worth it at all given that everything in my army already has a 6+ invuln, and that a lot of the wounds I'll be suffering will be likely from mortal wounds which would bypass that anyways. There's also the issue that I don't think a Big Mek with KFF would be able to cover enough of my buggies without blowing the strat to extend the range T1, while also falling behind the rest of my army. Also, my logic behind the Shokk Jump Dragsta is that they're basically there for potential character sniping and contesting his backline objectives, since Harlequins have a limited model count and will likely not have much of a backfield that can withstand a dragsta's shooting and a charge backed with Ramming Speed. The Kommandos are there to help get Linebreaker and Engage On All Fronts, while also acting as additional backup for dragstas on the prowl.

The trukk boyz are there as a tax, though I was considering taking a patrol and cutting out the troop tax for some more buggies (though that would require proxying probably).

Let me know what ya ladz think!

Just a few bits;

I arm my DS boys with Choppas over shootas, but that is ultimately personally preference.

I think that a kommando squad with a nob is 50 something points rather than 45, as it must take the Klaw if I remember rightly.

It looks like you've taken two smasha guns, but paid for four (it says Heavy Support 160, but only lists two smasha guns at 80 points). How many guns are you actually running?


Other than that, I like it. I personally wouldn't take a big mek for a KFF as it will only apply to one trukk, but you might get some use out of the jet that has a KFF if you're going all in and trying to get in the opponent's grill turn one.

 Afrodactyl wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
In response to previous posts to my request for advice regarding Harlequins, I'll be sticking to a buggy list partly because I feel that going mass boyz will be too tedious and less flexible with regards to missions. As such, here is my draft list for review before I finalize it for next week:

Spoiler:

Overall CP: 12+1-4 = 9 CP

Ork Deffskullz Battalion Detachment (3CP Refunded because of Warlord):

HQ - 208

Deffkilla Wartrike with Gork's Roar - 125

Warboss with Killa Klaw, Biggest Boss Upgrade, Attack Squig, Kombi-Rokkit
Warlord Trait: Follow Me Ladz! - 83

Troops - 255

10 Ork Shoota Boyz with Nob + Big Choppa - 85

10 Ork Shoota Boyz with Nob + Big Choppa - 85

10 Ork Shoota Boyz with Nob + Big Choppa - 85

Dedicated Transports - 195

3 x Trukk - 195

Elites - 135

5 Kommandos, Nob - 45

5 Kommandos, Nob - 45

5 Kommandos, Nob - 45

Fast Attack - 510

2 x Mega-Trakk Skrapjets with Korkscrew - 220

2 x Kustom Boosta Blasta - 180

2 x Shokk Jump Dragsta with Gyroscopic Whirlygig - 220

Heavy Support - 160

2 Smasha Gunz - 80

Keep in mind this list is partly to do with model limitations, which is why I haven't taken a maxed out unit of Kustom Boosta Blastas. I guess the main question for me is if a Big Mek with KFF would be worth it at all given that everything in my army already has a 6+ invuln, and that a lot of the wounds I'll be suffering will be likely from mortal wounds which would bypass that anyways. There's also the issue that I don't think a Big Mek with KFF would be able to cover enough of my buggies without blowing the strat to extend the range T1, while also falling behind the rest of my army. Also, my logic behind the Shokk Jump Dragsta is that they're basically there for potential character sniping and contesting his backline objectives, since Harlequins have a limited model count and will likely not have much of a backfield that can withstand a dragsta's shooting and a charge backed with Ramming Speed. The Kommandos are there to help get Linebreaker and Engage On All Fronts, while also acting as additional backup for dragstas on the prowl.

The trukk boyz are there as a tax, though I was considering taking a patrol and cutting out the troop tax for some more buggies (though that would require proxying probably).

Let me know what ya ladz think!

Just a few bits;

I arm my DS boys with Choppas over shootas, but that is ultimately personally preference.

I think that a kommando squad with a nob is 50 something points rather than 45, as it must take the Klaw if I remember rightly.

It looks like you've taken two smasha guns, but paid for four (it says Heavy Support 160, but only lists two smasha guns at 80 points). How many guns are you actually running?


Other than that, I like it. I personally wouldn't take a big mek for a KFF as it will only apply to one trukk, but you might get some use out of the jet that has a KFF if you're going all in and trying to get in the opponent's grill turn one.

Good catch! I must have forgotten to change some of the final points costs for each section since I was playing around with the points first before I posted, my bad! I've fixed it up and I completely forgot that Nobz in Kommandos basically have a 10 point tax with them since they do have to come with the Power Klaw (assuming no Legends). I've opted to go only for one with it in that case.

Any particular reason why you like choppa boyz over shootas? I like keeping my shootas in the trukks as long as possible to make the most of being able to shoot, I feel like they're too much of a liability in CC and since they can't take advantage of GT, there's no real point in getting the extra attack in CC. I was considering the Wazbom Blastajet, but I feel like I need to have more flyers to make it worth taking and I can't fit in the points.

I prefer choppas because I feel like I get extra mileage out of the extra attack compared to the extra shots from shootas. They tend to end up in melee after being dumped into an objective, so every turn in melee is wasted shots on shootas, whereas I get an extra attack in melee and can still shoot if I'm using sluggas.

I don't know why I specified that my boys were DS, I'd probably arm then with choppas regardless of clan outside of BM.

It depends on when you plan on getting your boys into combat as to what you arm them with. I play super aggressive and am looking to charge on turn two at the latest, so I'm getting more opportunities to get mileage out of the choppas compared to shootas.

 Afrodactyl wrote:
I prefer choppas because I feel like I get extra mileage out of the extra attack compared to the extra shots from shootas. They tend to end up in melee after being dumped into an objective, so every turn in melee is wasted shots on shootas, whereas I get an extra attack in melee and can still shoot if I'm using sluggas.

I don't know why I specified that my boys were DS, I'd probably arm then with choppas regardless of clan outside of BM.

It depends on when you plan on getting your boys into combat as to what you arm them with. I play super aggressive and am looking to charge on turn two at the latest, so I'm getting more opportunities to get mileage out of the choppas compared to shootas.

That's fair, and with the multitide of negatives to hit it might be better to use them with choppas. I might do a compromise and do a unit of 2 with choppas and one with shootas and see the difference. I think I have a bias from 8th ed where shootas in general had more use just because when they were Da Jumped, they could at least help clear screens or do something in the off chance you couldn't make the charge, which in this edition is moot when its mainly min squads.

I kinda wish boomboys and tineads were better but maybe our next codex fixed orks internal balance issues.
It can’t be to far off considering we are one of 4 army models leaked in the community video and ours appears to be some new boy unit type.

gungo wrote:
I kinda wish boomboys and tineads were better but maybe our next codex fixed orks internal balance issues.
It can’t be to far off considering we are one of 4 army models leaked in the community video and ours appears to be some new boy unit type.

Considering that they mentioned that they would incorporate different parts of psychic awakening into our codex, I would assume most of the stuff regarding kustom jobs stays. With the changes to the detachment system, it would be ideal that they either make the subkulturs not cost CP if they're in a patrol detachment (to show the specialism and lack of units tied to them) or some kind of strat that allows them to exist within one main klan kultur.

It does seem that they are limiting rerolls as a rule based on the leaked chapter tactics and dynasties for the new 9th ed codices, so I could see Bad Moonz being buffed to a flat +1 to hit with shooting, while giving Freebootas +1 to wound instead for their current rule.

So, I've played a few games utilising da boomer on a gunwagon and against a variety of targets it's whiffed pretty hard. At 175 points I feel it's basically a crap Leman Russ and there are plenty of things I'd rather spend the points on.
Similarly, the Morakanaut, with sparkly bits is, I feel, a bit over rated. It can be useful, but more times than not its been taken out in the first turn, or very shortly after. I'd rather spend the points elsewhere.

On the plus side, kommandos, koptas, truckboyz and killsaw MANZ have been very useful. The flexibility and firepower of buggies, backing a mix of these units seems to be the way to score.

My next game, I'm going to experiment with triple klaw/saw, single KMB Deff Dreads with orkymatic pistons. From what I've experienced I think they could a very useful unit to push stubborn units from objectives.

My big wishlist for the next ork codex is subkultures become a "once per army, this unit counts as X instead of Y without breaking kulture rules" so we can use all those subkultures on the unit theyre intended for, but cant spam them.
Too many of them simply do absolutely nothing for such a large bulk of the army.

 r_squared wrote:
So, I've played a few games utilising da boomer on a gunwagon and against a variety of targets it's whiffed pretty hard. At 175 points I feel it's basically a crap Leman Russ and there are plenty of things I'd rather spend the points on.
Similarly, the Morakanaut, with sparkly bits is, I feel, a bit over rated. It can be useful, but more times than not its been taken out in the first turn, or very shortly after. I'd rather spend the points elsewhere.

On the plus side, kommandos, koptas, truckboyz and killsaw MANZ have been very useful. The flexibility and firepower of buggies, backing a mix of these units seems to be the way to score.

My next game, I'm going to experiment with triple klaw/saw, single KMB Deff Dreads with orkymatic pistons. From what I've experienced I think they could a very useful unit to push stubborn units from objectives.

Rocket koptas or shoota koptas?

r_squared wrote:So, I've played a few games utilising da boomer on a gunwagon and against a variety of targets it's whiffed pretty hard. At 175 points I feel it's basically a crap Leman Russ and there are plenty of things I'd rather spend the points on.
Similarly, the Morakanaut, with sparkly bits is, I feel, a bit over rated. It can be useful, but more times than not its been taken out in the first turn, or very shortly after. I'd rather spend the points elsewhere.

On the plus side, kommandos, koptas, truckboyz and killsaw MANZ have been very useful. The flexibility and firepower of buggies, backing a mix of these units seems to be the way to score.

My next game, I'm going to experiment with triple klaw/saw, single KMB Deff Dreads with orkymatic pistons. From what I've experienced I think they could a very useful unit to push stubborn units from objectives.

Out of curiosity, what sort of targets are you using it against and how are you using it with the rest of the army?

Vineheart01 wrote:My big wishlist for the next ork codex is subkultures become a "once per army, this unit counts as X instead of Y without breaking kulture rules" so we can use all those subkultures on the unit theyre intended for, but cant spam them.
Too many of them simply do absolutely nothing for such a large bulk of the army.

That would be really nice, or the patrol thing that Grimskul mentioned.

I'm having great success with Ghaz in a Goff patrol. Ghaz + 30 skarboys with pk + KFF + obligatory painboy to heal Ghaz comes to only 690ish points.

Gotta say Ghaz is a beast. I've played 9+ games of 9th now and he only once (when I teleported him) didn't destroy at least his points cost (and absorb a load of damage).

He's gun hits on 5s when in engagement range as its an assault.

Move him up the centre of the board as a threat. If he's near the goff boyz then all the better for +1 attack and reroll 1s. Fence off points for the painboy strat on him and ideally keep 2cp for fight on death.

I have to say he's awesome in any detachment. Goff patrol and Deathskulls vanguad ftw

 Tomsug wrote:

 r_squared wrote:
So, I've played a few games utilising da boomer on a gunwagon and against a variety of targets it's whiffed pretty hard. At 175 points I feel it's basically a crap Leman Russ and there are plenty of things I'd rather spend the points on.
Similarly, the Morakanaut, with sparkly bits is, I feel, a bit over rated. It can be useful, but more times than not its been taken out in the first turn, or very shortly after. I'd rather spend the points elsewhere.

On the plus side, kommandos, koptas, truckboyz and killsaw MANZ have been very useful. The flexibility and firepower of buggies, backing a mix of these units seems to be the way to score.

My next game, I'm going to experiment with triple klaw/saw, single KMB Deff Dreads with orkymatic pistons. From what I've experienced I think they could a very useful unit to push stubborn units from objectives.

Rocket koptas or shoota koptas?

Shoota koptas for max cheapness most of the time, but I do like the rokkit koptas in a DS list.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Afrodactyl wrote:

r_squared wrote:So, I've played a few games utilising da boomer on a gunwagon and against a variety of targets it's whiffed pretty hard. At 175 points I feel it's basically a crap Leman Russ and there are plenty of things I'd rather spend the points on.
Similarly, the Morakanaut, with sparkly bits is, I feel, a bit over rated. It can be useful, but more times than not its been taken out in the first turn, or very shortly after. I'd rather spend the points elsewhere.

On the plus side, kommandos, koptas, truckboyz and killsaw MANZ have been very useful. The flexibility and firepower of buggies, backing a mix of these units seems to be the way to score.

My next game, I'm going to experiment with triple klaw/saw, single KMB Deff Dreads with orkymatic pistons. From what I've experienced I think they could a very useful unit to push stubborn units from objectives.

Out of curiosity, what sort of targets are you using it against and how are you using it with the rest of the army? ...

A variety, primaris in and out of cover, dreadnoughts, light vehicles, some heavier tanks. Using more dakka every now and then as the situation demands, dense cover really hurts.
Unfortunately it has been mostly underwhelming, my last opponent literally ignored it all game as he didn't even consider it a threat. In no game have I got close to getting back it's points costs, plus it's cost me a CP. It looks good on paper, but in the real world it just doesn't pull it's weight.

 r_squared wrote:


Shoota koptas for max cheapness most of the time, but I do like the rokkit koptas in a DS list.

I think I'm with you 100%.

Deff Koptas might be one our best units for achieving objectives. I think their current rating on this thread massively undervalues them

They are in my mind:
1) A 35 point throw away DS screen in the midboard, or other spot on the board.
2) Useful for getting engage on all fronts
3) Can eat an overwatch
4) Can contest midboard objectives that have a single model (like a Wave serpent) on it, denying primary points.

Their only drawback is bring it down... which is easily mitigated simply by having a mechanized buggy spam where you already give up 15 VPs to bring it down.

I think I'm gonna be trying out 3 in my outrider list, alongside my 8 or so buggies and 2 wagons.

Edit: Tabletop Titans had a bat rep of White Scars vs Orks ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_H7wwn-GN4E ), entertaining enough if you like that sort of thing.

Honestly, what secondaries do you take against an army like the White Scars player has, though? Engage on all fronts seems fine, but WOOF. Maybe attrition, maybe assassinate? 40 assault intercessors, 10 intercessors, Khan on Bike, 3 squads of Outriders, 2 Invictors, librarian, and a judiciar.. That army doesn't give up any kill secondaries.
It would be a strong use case just to take a couple infantry squads just so you can raise banners, even in a buggy spam, cause I don't really see a good set of 3 against that kind of list.

Would Ghaz be useful at all, in a 1000 point army? Or would he need to be in at least 1500-2000 to be useful? I mean he is 300 points and he needs a Pain boy and then the rest of the chaff afterwards..

Not a lot of points left for chaff and what not after you've invested in Ghazzy in a 1000 point army.

Beardedragon wrote:
Would Ghaz be useful at all, in a 1000 point army? Or would he need to be in at least 1500-2000 to be useful? I mean he is 300 points and he needs a Pain boy and then the rest of the chaff afterwards..

Not a lot of points left for chaff and what not after you've invested in Ghazzy in a 1000 point army.

I'd say no, he's probably too much of an investment in a 1000 point game. It's unlikely that your opponent is able to kill him until T3-4 at the earliest, but at the same time like you said, you'll pretty much just have boyz for the rest of the list which means there's not much else to your army besides trying to hold the center with him and 2 blobs of guys. Not terrible but also limited as far as tactics go.

 Grimskul wrote:

Beardedragon wrote:
Would Ghaz be useful at all, in a 1000 point army? Or would he need to be in at least 1500-2000 to be useful? I mean he is 300 points and he needs a Pain boy and then the rest of the chaff afterwards..

Not a lot of points left for chaff and what not after you've invested in Ghazzy in a 1000 point army.

I'd say no, he's probably too much of an investment in a 1000 point game. It's unlikely that your opponent is able to kill him until T3-4 at the earliest, but at the same time like you said, you'll pretty much just have boyz for the rest of the list which means there's not much else to your army besides trying to hold the center with him and 2 blobs of guys. Not terrible but also limited as far as tactics go.

yea.. thats what i thought. Thanks. Ive almost finished painting him so i just wanted to know. guess hes on hold untill i can field a larger army.

tulun wrote:
Deff Koptas might be one our best units for achieving objectives. I think their current rating on this thread massively undervalues them

They are in my mind:
1) A 35 point throw away DS screen in the midboard, or other spot on the board.
2) Useful for getting engage on all fronts
3) Can eat an overwatch
4) Can contest midboard objectives that have a single model (like a Wave serpent) on it, denying primary points.

Their only drawback is bring it down... which is easily mitigated simply by having a mechanized buggy spam where you already give up 15 VPs to bring it down.

I think I'm gonna be trying out 3 in my outrider list, alongside my 8 or so buggies and 2 wagons.

Thats how i use them. I tried Koptas with rokkits as well and they are fantastic as DS, but since i mainly need them for Engage on all fronts - especially turn one - and other secondaries, i prefer them with BS. 35 points is a steal - i would rate them better as well.
Only little problem is they take up FA slots, so if you just have 1 detachment you`ll need an outrider or go for 2 detachments to get multiple single Koptas and still take 1-3 Scrapjets + 1-3 Dragstas.
Personally i play outrider a lot with just 2 HQ`s and max out 2 heavy support slots + 2 flyers for max CP. Thats still 3 x trukkboys + shooty vehicle stuff.
Sounds like you go for something similar?

tulun wrote:
Edit: Tabletop Titans had a bat rep of White Scars vs Orks ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_H7wwn-GN4E ), entertaining enough if you like that sort of thing.

Honestly, what secondaries do you take against an army like the White Scars player has, though? Engage on all fronts seems fine, but WOOF. Maybe attrition, maybe assassinate? 40 assault intercessors, 10 intercessors, Khan on Bike, 3 squads of Outriders, 2 Invictors, librarian, and a judiciar.. That army doesn't give up any kill secondaries.
It would be a strong use case just to take a couple infantry squads just so you can raise banners, even in a buggy spam, cause I don't really see a good set of 3 against that kind of list.

Personally i would go for engage on all fronts for sure. The next ones depends:
Raise the banners if you have grot / trukkboys / kommandos.
Psychic ritual if you have 1 or 2 wyrdboys and do not really need them, but that is quite a gamble but can you get 15 points straight. Take this only when you think you can dominate the middle and protect that dude 3 turns. Mental interrogation might be the safe play for some points here. This one is somewhat a last resort for me if i know i can`t score otherwise.
While we stand we fight if your think you can manage to hold those 3 units in reserves and / or protect them. In my case that would be a Naut, a waggon and the Wazbom most of the time. Thats quite some firepower to miss on, but i think you can keep them safe from the WS after turn 3. With the right characters / vehicles this one might be quite doable against such lists without loosing to much. Against the right opponent i actually did take that one from time to time.
Otherwise assassinate to play some safe points, or cut of the head if you feel lucky. Might work with the bommer and the right offensive tools, but if you don`t get it done turn 1-2 assassinate will be your better bet. (If you play the GT secondaries)

 Grotrebel wrote:

tulun wrote:
Deff Koptas might be one our best units for achieving objectives. I think their current rating on this thread massively undervalues them

They are in my mind:
1) A 35 point throw away DS screen in the midboard, or other spot on the board.
2) Useful for getting engage on all fronts
3) Can eat an overwatch
4) Can contest midboard objectives that have a single model (like a Wave serpent) on it, denying primary points.

Their only drawback is bring it down... which is easily mitigated simply by having a mechanized buggy spam where you already give up 15 VPs to bring it down.

I think I'm gonna be trying out 3 in my outrider list, alongside my 8 or so buggies and 2 wagons.

Thats how i use them. I tried Koptas with rokkits as well and they are fantastic as DS, but since i mainly need them for Engage on all fronts - especially turn one - and other secondaries, i prefer them with BS. 35 points is a steal - i would rate them better as well.
Only little problem is they take up FA slots, so if you just have 1 detachment you`ll need an outrider or go for 2 detachments to get multiple single Koptas and still take 1-3 Scrapjets + 1-3 Dragstas.
Personally i play outrider a lot with just 2 HQ`s and max out 2 heavy support slots + 2 flyers for max CP. Thats still 3 x trukkboys + shooty vehicle stuff.
Sounds like you go for something similar?

The two lists I'm probably most interested in are either a batallion with Trukks / Wagons for Da Boys, or a pure Outrider which is boyless.

I haven't gotten to play this yet, as I actually don't own two Wartrikes, but it's roughly:

2 Wartrikes (1 as Warlord with Brutal, other with Da Fixer Uppers)
2 KBB
3 Mega Trakk
3 Dragsters
3 Big Shoota Deff Koptas
7 Nob Bikers
2 Bonebreakers
1 Burna Bomber

I think the Deff Koptas do work but slots are the biggest issue, I agree. Even taking 1 Dragster with their fire and fade ability is almost always gonna be money. I think the Fast Attack slot might be Orks most competitive slot right now.

I would suggest people experiment with them keeping in mind that their goal is screening out deep strikers and going after objectives -- they are throw away units.

The Trukk boy style list that I also like could probably still take them, but honestly, even that list will wanna take a look at Dragsters, KBBs, or Mega Trakks.

If you are to believe this list, that started the entire long ork tactics thread, then Nob bikers shouldnt be used

Sounds good!

I played some games completely without infantry, which went great if i got to blast up a lot of stuff with getting the first turn.
But i had games where i went second, couldn`t archieve good midboard control anymore and really missed something like boys to help with that.
Mixing Boys, transports and buggies gets really expensive and does not leave much room tough.
I love my sparkly bitz Morkanaut / slug gubbin Gorkanaut and Wazbom Blastajet, since they get me good firepower and some KFF protection without the need for an KFF Mek, but they are expensive as heck.

With 1 HQ of your flavour, 3 Dragstas, 3 Scrapjets, 1 Bommer and 2 x Trukkboys you`re looking at 1250 points, which will be about the core of a lot ork lists for now and gets you a solid base. I love playing vehicle only but i guess we will see more lists performing better that also bring truck / waggon boys, MANz, kommandos or maybe even some grot.
Helps with board control and the actions that can just be performed by infantry.

But it feels kinda nice to still have different options how to fill the remaining 750 points.
KBB, Waggons, Mek Gunz, Kommandos, MANz, Wazbom, Nauts, Koptas and a handfull of HQ`s are all viable and leave enough room to bring some variety in our lists.
I can also see Bikes working with that kind of army.




I`m gonna go up against Tau tomorrow, and since he blasted my buggies away last time with 2 turns of brutal shooting, i will go for horde this time.
The plan was to take 150 grot (Sadly thats all i have painted.) and 90 boys, together with a few kommandos, 2 koptas, wyrdboy, warboss, dok and a SSAG. (Playing matched play without tournament restrictions.)

My opponent will most likely go for a Triptide with lots of shield drones, 2 commanders, 1 ethereal, 3 crisis and some other stuff.

Should i go for a Cheeky Zoggerz detachment to annoy him with 6++ 6+++ grot? This will be an dice orgy but should tank quite some shooting.
Also not sure how to play the grot - a few mobs of 30 supported by breaking heads plus some mobs of 10 for actions or just as many squads of 10 as possible?
Morale should not be that much of a problem, especially with the jumping / tellyporting boys distracting him.

Thought about Evil Sunz boys of course, to take out his troops, clear objectives and overrun his drones and Riptides in the end.

Beardedragon wrote:
If you are to believe this list, that started the entire long ork tactics thread, then Nob bikers shouldnt be used

Nob Bikers seem fine to me. 8 points more than a normal biker provides +1S +1A +1W, and the option for klaws and big choppas. The -1 to hit strat and T5 makes them about as resistant to shooting as MANz. They're expensive, but don't need to pay for a transport or need to teleport, and unlike CC infantry in a transport they keep their speed all game. Inability to fight twice is a downside.

Beardedragon wrote:
If you are to believe this list, that started the entire long ork tactics thread, then Nob bikers shouldnt be used

Nob bikers did very well out of the points changes, and while T5 W3 4+ isn't the toughest frame it's certainly tanky compared to some of the other stuff in the codex. They're also very fast, and for 105 points you get 18 S5 shots at range and 15 S5 melee attacks assuming double choppas.

For 150 points you change the melee attacks to 12 S10 AP-4 D2.

If you take four with dual saws, they're the same cost as 5 dual saw meganobs. So you lose out on four melee attacks and a 2+ armour save in exchange for some respectable firepower and a huge threat range.

Biker nobs certainly have a place in a speedy list, as they are more mid-toughness target saturation that keeps pace and deliver very respectable melee punch that doesn't compete for our highly sought after FA slots.

Beardedragon wrote:
If you are to believe this list, that started the entire long ork tactics thread, then Nob bikers shouldnt be used

Well they are expensive, which is basicly why they are that "bad" rated, but in that kind of list they are better and the unit itself is actually quite good.
Fast, good dakka, quite killy in close combat and somewhat tanky with a few good strategems and synergies to work with.
They help with the need for chaff killing fire power and can reliable pull of first turn charges together with the Wartrikes ability to let them charge after advancing for easy 24"+ charges. With Evil Sunz you could push that even to an 50" charge (40" average) if you play with Vigilus rules.
Also they fit in this list because they need anti tank weapons to be taken down reliable just like the rest which makes anti infantry firepower more or less useless.
Nobbikers might not be the best unit but this is about the best way to include them.
That mob of 7 can still take out 10 Primaris or a Leman Russ on it`s own.
They loose the 2+ AS of the competing meganobs and their advantages of being infantry with an additional increase of 10 points, but for that you get speed and Dakka.

Nob Bikers are probably a mid tier unit at best.

But in the right list, they can fill a niche not achievable by Mega Nobs or normal Nobs.

It's very incorrect to blanket say most units are totally unusable, albeit with a few notable exceptions. Looking at you, Mekboy Workshop....

Nobz on bikes can have a Squig hive tyres Kustom job! Cool.

tulun wrote:
Nob Bikers are probably a mid tier unit at best.

But in the right list, they can fill a niche not achievable by Mega Nobs or normal Nobs.

It's very incorrect to blanket say most units are totally unusable, albeit with a few notable exceptions. Looking at you, Mekboy Workshop....

Couldn´t agree more on the last. The herd mentality in the gaming world is powerful, so it´s important to take "wisdoms" with a grain of salt.

On the topic of mech lists I think loading some boyz onboard can be a thing. One reason is that Area Terrain is quite beneficial to infantry. +1 Cover and -1 to hit for just standing around is enough to throw some math. Especially when people keeps using elite lists that supposes equally points invested targets. Unloading a mob of boyz and taking hold of the local ruin or wood beside the objective demands some attention. They´re Obsec, they have a large footprint, they may not be much of an offensive threat, but enough Dakka and the random Tanbusta is an annoyance for the points.

I think of them as more durable Deffkoptas. They aren´t there to necessary kill stuff, but threaten their objectives.

The first post is meant as a starting point for new players, and it does a well enough job at that. It's not meant to be the end-all for cutting edge ork strategy - this is why we have a thread, not a blog entry.

Also keep in mind that the list in the first post is a snapshot of the ork situation and was written before the bikerboss was axed, who did their job much better.

Last, but not least, I personally don't like these kind of lists, but there was a high demand by the community to have one.
It's also a lot of work to maintain, so it only gets updated when there really is need to do so.

Yeah i can imagine that this was quite some work and overall it gives a great overview.
The most important stuff is there with the details being right on spot and not to much stuff that makes it unreadable.

But it makes sense that the list or single units will shift from time to time with new FAQ`s, point changes or stuff going to legends etc.
Just look at Flash Gits, they were mostly laughed at in 8th, became quite decent with their price drop and just got worse again with their 9th edition price tag.

Also the 9th edition Codex wave will change a lot as well when new threads emerge or the meta shifts.

As far as i see it we can be lucky with this thread, there are not many faction threads with that amount of good information in the starting post on Dakka and we have quite a few ork players that give good input here and there is always some discussion about many topics.

 Jidmah wrote:
The first post is meant as a starting point for new players, and it does a well enough job at that. It's not meant to be the end-all for cutting edge ork strategy - this is why we have a thread, not a blog entry.

Also keep in mind that the list in the first post is a snapshot of the ork situation and was written before the bikerboss was axed, who did their job much better.

Last, but not least, I personally don't like these kind of lists, but there was a high demand by the community to have one.
It's also a lot of work to maintain, so it only gets updated when there really is need to do so.

well. I like the list as it provides a good start point of view for newer players. I too have used the list a lot as it gives me a decent overview.

Like with the Nob bikers. People say they can work but you would need a special sort of loadout for them to be decent. Fair enough. Thats probably not the first thing i want to attempt when im new.

Over all, such a list does help us new ones.

Honestly, I'd probably not put then in red anymore, but closer to warbikers. But I'm also not going to change the list just for that. The next big update will either be the next CA or the codex plus some time for the game to settle afterwards.

 Jidmah wrote:
Honestly, I'd probably not put then in red anymore, but closer to warbikers. But I'm also not going to change the list just for that. The next big update will either be the next CA or the codex plus some time for the game to settle afterwards.

Yeah this is fair. The list is a snapshot at a certain point in time with some group input. Expecting it to be updated constantly isn't fair -- it actually does help, so appreciated.

Everyone should just take it with a grain of salt. Like, taking nothing but "green" units could lead to a very, very bad army. Army composition is more than just taking the most OP stuff in your codex, at least for Orks.

Hence why a unit of Warbikers, which are probably objectively pretty trash overall, might fit really well in a GT winning list. They fulfill a niche very well when you are expecting at least some horde clearing which you might lack overall, or a fast counter charge unit that can be deployed in a pinch.

Nob Bikers should probably be bumped, as well as Deff Koptas. I think as 9th evolves, we will realize some of these meh units might have a place. I could see people taking 45 point kommandos squads as backfield objective holders, as they are 5 points cheaper than grots; I could see people taking 30 point Meks solely to raise banners in certain armies for similar reasons.

9th is a weird edition where a throw away unit that does 0 damage and is pretty crap on paper might net you 5-10 VPs because of how secondaries work.

In my mind the list reads in a way that higher categories are less likely to be bad purchases for someone who has no clue what to buy.

I'm somewhat of a burned child in that regard - as a little ork noob I was asking advice on the-waaagh.com for what to get next and to put it nicely, the guys there weren't playing the same game I was, so I ended up with quite a bit of money sunk into models that weren't doing too hot on the tabletop. I left their community for dakka, because people here were actually helping me by giving great advice.

For that reason, I prefer to err on the side of caution when giving units a good rating.

Are there comming any tournaments in your countries? Long time no see any tournament lists. I ´ very interested in top tier proofs of all these theories.

Germany has clamped down on forbidding all events (including private ones) with more than 25 participants, no a clear no from here.

In my experience with 9th so far here is what I have to say:

Trukk Boyz have been excellent.
KBB's have been excellent.
Ghazz was great. (He was also rolling super hot)
SJD's have been meh. (Question: with the 9th ed. null on double buff's do the SJD's get +2 to hit with their squig and grot gunner ability or is it capped at +1?)
Dakkajet's have been meh.
Grots are also actually pretty good, they are great at scoring points (but kommando's might be a better choice?)

 Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote:
In my experience with 9th so far here is what I have to say:

Trukk Boyz have been excellent.
KBB's have been excellent.
Ghazz was great. (He was also rolling super hot)
SJD's have been meh. (Question: with the 9th ed. null on double buff's do the SJD's get +2 to hit with their squig and grot gunner ability or is it capped at +1?)
Dakkajet's have been meh.
Grots are also actually pretty good, they are great at scoring points (but kommando's might be a better choice?)

SJD's were explicitly errated to count as having BS3+ when shooting their kustom shokk rifle, so they can benefit from freebootas and not be capped at 4+ BS.

I'm kinda surprised that you mentioned grots being good given that almost every Ork player I know basically shelving them until our next codex hits. As far as units go, I feel like they're way too expensive and weak even for objective holding, and their previous use as Grot Shields is far less useful with lootas/flash gitz price hikes making them both less cost efficient and worthy of wasting the CP on.

ive been having less luck with the SJD because its ultimate task is to snipe 8-10W vehicles and/or characters that are exposed on an angle.
With the mentality of the game right now ive had an unusually difficult time spotting characters exposed on an angle i can shokktunnel to and for some reason people stopped using dreadnoughts around me lol.

Yeah, with the scrum in the middle, it's often hard to get characters isolated from the mobs they're inevitably next to. I think the SJD main merit is that it's one of the few mobile ranged multi-damage weapons we have that have an AP of -3, because marines getting to save on a 5+ or better because of cover is really annoying if you're just relying on rokkit equivalents. Smasha Gunz are still great, but their inability to get to their ideal targets compared to the SJD means that it just means you have to play the SJD for the early game towards linebreaker and EOAF first and then as the attrition takes its toll in the middle to jump back behind now exposed characters/vehicles, rather than T1 alpha striking.

 Grimskul wrote:

 Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote:
In my experience with 9th so far here is what I have to say:

Trukk Boyz have been excellent.
KBB's have been excellent.
Ghazz was great. (He was also rolling super hot)
SJD's have been meh. (Question: with the 9th ed. null on double buff's do the SJD's get +2 to hit with their squig and grot gunner ability or is it capped at +1?)
Dakkajet's have been meh.
Grots are also actually pretty good, they are great at scoring points (but kommando's might be a better choice?)

SJD's were explicitly errated to count as having BS3+ when shooting their kustom shokk rifle, so they can benefit from freebootas and not be capped at 4+ BS.

I'm kinda surprised that you mentioned grots being good given that almost every Ork player I know basically shelving them until our next codex hits. As far as units go, I feel like they're way too expensive and weak even for objective holding, and their previous use as Grot Shields is far less useful with lootas/flash gitz price hikes making them both less cost efficient and worthy of wasting the CP on.

grots are probably still our best screen to block deepstrikes against good rearline units like Mek gunz, gunwagons, nauts, etc... and they are also a cheap unit for shadow operations secondaries in your backline or, depending on the terrain, your list, and enemy lists, even midfield (though in this regard kommandos are probably better) like investigating sites or raising banners. True they are not as good as they were in 8th but frankly they were probably one of the best units of the entire edition on account of how many cp they generated cheap and how effective they were at screening.

Couldn't I just use deathskull kommando squads for a similar role to grots, except potentially being cheaper and not total deadweight?

I think you only take grots when you really don't wanna buy another boy squad for that mandatory slot.

tulun wrote:
Couldn't I just use deathskull kommando squads for a similar role to grots, except potentially being cheaper and not total deadweight?

I think you only take grots when you really don't wanna buy another boy squad for that mandatory slot.

it's kind of list and table dependant for me. kommandos are far better for midfield and enemy objectives but for your own backline, especially if your using units like mek gunz, i think grots are better as they simultaniously get vps and screen out an enemy deepstrike more effectively (easy to hide height wise and large footprint) while also potentially giving a KFF mek some extra survivability via grot shields if the enemy has snipers. Not auto-includes but for certain lists they do have merit

Does anyone else feel weird having less than 90 boyz on the tabletop? I saw the GT list that had Ghaz and 90 boyz and even that felt strange to me. Im used to running 120 boyz to the point that the all buggy list I struggle to see how it works.

probably feel that way because for the longest time that was all orks had going for them was green tide.
I used to run that many too because other than Big Gunz, Lootas, and Bikernobz (6th or earlier for that last one) everything else sucked hardcore.

I had two games against Tau today, which went quite good for me.

With minimum changes he played the same list twice: 3 Riptides, 2 Commanders, 1 Ethereal, 3 Crisis, 30 Drones and 3 x 5 Fire Warriors.


In my first game i wanted to try how viable a green tide with Grots and Boys could be.

I had an Cheeky Zoggers Detachment with SSAG, KFF, 130 Grots, 2 x 5 Kommandos, 2 Koptas and Dok (Warlord with Follow me Lads) + an Evil Sunz detachment with 90 Boys, Biggest Boss Killaklaw Warboss and Warphead Wyrdboy.
I went for Raise the banners, Engage on all fronts and While we stand we fight as secondaries.
He got the first turn and deleted 1 Boymob and 20 Grots, i moved up the table with some SSAG fire and Koptas getting engage.
Second & third turn he deleted the second / third Boymob, that i had both jumped for some shooting, blocking and scoring, i used my Kommandos / Koptas to maximise secondaries.
In turn 4 i had just my 5 characters and about 50 Grots left, while raising banners + scoring and him castling up. I wrapped my characters to get most of while we stand and killed the first Riptide - his drones and 3++ rolls were on fire today.
I played it safe over turn 5, in the end i had just 4 characters and 10 Grots left, while just killing 1 Riptide, 20 Drones, 5 Firewarriors and 1 Crisis.
But the plan was a success with an 92:58 win for da boys.

Honestly all that rolling and moving was quite exhausting and i was not able to bring 1 Boy mob back due to some bad luck with the last Boys before i could use the green tides strategem. Wouldn`t have changed much though. The Grots were quite resilient with KFF / 6++ and the doks 6+++.
Will take 3 x 5 Kommandos and 3 Koptas next time to have some additional flexibility with secondaries, i lost some points in turns i couldn`t get to all 4 quarters.
Might skip the warboss and just play 90 shootaboys to save some points and CP next time, he did exactly nothing this game.^^


Second game i wanted some vehicle fun - it`s just so more interesting to play.
Sparkling bitz Morkanaut, Wazbom Blastajet, Dakkajet, Da Boomer, 3 SJD, 2 MSJ, 2 x Trukkboys, 10 Grot, SSAG and KFF.
I got the first turn and killed all Drones in 1 shooting phase while spreading on the board - he had castled up in a -1 to hit forest.
After that i lost about 2 vehicles each turn but managed to score good an primaries and secondaries (raise the banners, engage and the mission specific secondary where you get points for 75% / 50% / 25% of your units being alive by the end of the game).
I thought with the Drones gone turn 1 that would be an easy one, but his first Riptide managed to 3++ save all my shooting for 2 complete turns while i cleared all his other stuff except the Riptides and 2 Commanders. That way i could deny him kill more 4/5 turns while scoring good with my stuff.
Turn 4 i finally killed 2 Riptides and after that it was just farming points for an 87:50.

Primary points vs. Tau are really the way to go, both games had a Primary Score of 45:20

Billagio wrote:Does anyone else feel weird having less than 90 boyz on the tabletop? I saw the GT list that had Ghaz and 90 boyz and even that felt strange to me. Im used to running 120 boyz to the point that the all buggy list I struggle to see how it works.

I'm running 39 boys and 5 kommandos at 1500 points, and I've done alright with BW spam. Not amazing, but I've definitely won more than I've lost.

I mean, grot's aren't super good but they're cheaper than 80 points. You also have to take into account that people aren't scared of a grot mob and often ignore them in shooting. Find a hole for them to hide ii on an objective and you're gonna score points. And while idk if point for point they're worth the 50 they cost I'll still take them.

 Grotrebel wrote:
I had two games against Tau today, which went quite good for me.

With minimum changes he played the same list twice: 3 Riptides, 2 Commanders, 1 Ethereal, 3 Crisis, 30 Drones and 3 x 5 Fire Warriors.


In my first game i wanted to try how viable a green tide with Grots and Boys could be.

I had an Cheeky Zoggers Detachment with SSAG, KFF, 130 Grots, 2 x 5 Kommandos, 2 Koptas and Dok (Warlord with Follow me Lads) + an Evil Sunz detachment with 90 Boys, Biggest Boss Killaklaw Warboss and Warphead Wyrdboy.
I went for Raise the banners, Engage on all fronts and While we stand we fight as secondaries.
He got the first turn and deleted 1 Boymob and 20 Grots, i moved up the table with some SSAG fire and Koptas getting engage.
Second & third turn he deleted the second / third Boymob, that i had both jumped for some shooting, blocking and scoring, i used my Kommandos / Koptas to maximise secondaries.
In turn 4 i had just my 5 characters and about 50 Grots left, while raising banners + scoring and him castling up. I wrapped my characters to get most of while we stand and killed the first Riptide - his drones and 3++ rolls were on fire today.
I played it safe over turn 5, in the end i had just 4 characters and 10 Grots left, while just killing 1 Riptide, 20 Drones, 5 Firewarriors and 1 Crisis.
But the plan was a success with an 92:58 win for da boys.

Honestly all that rolling and moving was quite exhausting and i was not able to bring 1 Boy mob back due to some bad luck with the last Boys before i could use the green tides strategem. Wouldn`t have changed much though. The Grots were quite resilient with KFF / 6++ and the doks 6+++.
Will take 3 x 5 Kommandos and 3 Koptas next time to have some additional flexibility with secondaries, i lost some points in turns i couldn`t get to all 4 quarters.
Might skip the warboss and just play 90 shootaboys to save some points and CP next time, he did exactly nothing this game.^^


Second game i wanted some vehicle fun - it`s just so more interesting to play.
Sparkling bitz Morkanaut, Wazbom Blastajet, Dakkajet, Da Boomer, 3 SJD, 2 MSJ, 2 x Trukkboys, 10 Grot, SSAG and KFF.
I got the first turn and killed all Drones in 1 shooting phase while spreading on the board - he had castled up in a -1 to hit forest.
After that i lost about 2 vehicles each turn but managed to score good an primaries and secondaries (raise the banners, engage and the mission specific secondary where you get points for 75% / 50% / 25% of your units being alive by the end of the game).
I thought with the Drones gone turn 1 that would be an easy one, but his first Riptide managed to 3++ save all my shooting for 2 complete turns while i cleared all his other stuff except the Riptides and 2 Commanders. That way i could deny him kill more 4/5 turns while scoring good with my stuff.
Turn 4 i finally killed 2 Riptides and after that it was just farming points for an 87:50.

Primary points vs. Tau are really the way to go, both games had a Primary Score of 45:20

Props to you man, I cannot imagine playing with that many grot and boyz models, I've only gone up to 100 boyz that one time Green Tide as a formation was a thing in 7th ed. Classic example of having too many bodies for your opponent to handle, but I feel like that really drains you when it comes to gaming, at least it's not feasible IMO for most people in tournaments.

 Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote:
I mean, grot's aren't super good but they're cheaper than 80 points. You also have to take into account that people aren't scared of a grot mob and often ignore them in shooting. Find a hole for them to hide ii on an objective and you're gonna score points. And while idk if point for point they're worth the 50 they cost I'll still take them.

All my opponent clear them out ASAP, usually by split-firing some secondary guns of tanks or planes. Even if they send a dedicated unit after my gretchin, it usually means losing 10+ VP for me, so using terminators or similar to kill gretchin is no longer a waste of point, but a game-winner.

IMO, once all players have realized how important taking away primary VP is, gretchin will stop being an option.

 Jidmah wrote:
...IMO, once all players have realized how important taking away primary VP is, gretchin will stop being an option.

I agree, scoring is important but denying your opponent VP is equally so, especially with primary objectives. Grots still have some value in deepstrike screening, but for holding objectives? Unless buffed with kff and a painboy are situational at best.

 Billagio wrote:
Does anyone else feel weird having less than 90 boyz on the tabletop? I saw the GT list that had Ghaz and 90 boyz and even that felt strange to me. Im used to running 120 boyz to the point that the all buggy list I struggle to see how it works.

I abandoned 90+ boyz lists long before Saga of the Beast, replacing boyz with grots basically or fielding lots of vehicles/walkers after SotB. It's never been my style of playing going with massed footslogging infantries and I'm glad there are competitive alternatives in this edition.

Ghaz and 90 boyz is still a very solid combination.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tulun wrote:
I could see people taking 45 point kommandos squads as backfield objective holders, as they are 5 points cheaper than grots; I could see people taking 30 point Meks solely to raise banners in certain armies for similar reasons.

9th is a weird edition where a throw away unit that does 0 damage and is pretty crap on paper might net you 5-10 VPs because of how secondaries work.

Kommandos, (solo) koptas, and even meks are definitely legit units at the moment. I'd consider grots only for filling a mandatory troop slot.

 r_squared wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
...IMO, once all players have realized how important taking away primary VP is, gretchin will stop being an option.

I agree, scoring is important but denying your opponent VP is equally so, especially with primary objectives. Grots still have some value in deepstrike screening, but for holding objectives? Unless buffed with kff and a painboy are situational at best.

I don't know about the screening part. With two mobs and the new coherency rules, it's quite difficult to cover your side and not be in LoS of some random heavy bolter equivalent. In one of my last games a minimum unit of flayed ones(!) almost caused me to lose the game because they butchered their way through two mobs of gretchin and there was little I could do about it outside having my naut move back and stomp on them.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote:
I mean, grot's aren't super good but they're cheaper than 80 points. You also have to take into account that people aren't scared of a grot mob and often ignore them in shooting. Find a hole for them to hide ii on an objective and you're gonna score points. And while idk if point for point they're worth the 50 they cost I'll still take them.

All my opponent clear them out ASAP, usually by split-firing some secondary guns of tanks or planes. Even if they send a dedicated unit after my gretchin, it usually means losing 10+ VP for me, so using terminators or similar to kill gretchin is no longer a waste of point, but a game-winner.

IMO, once all players have realized how important taking away primary VP is, gretchin will stop being an option.

Yep. When I faced orks with necrons early in 9th ed I used 10 praetorians(that's 230 pts) to clear out 10 grots. Overkill but still that was pretty big in terms of vp's securing 15 vp for me and leaving him with 0 for a turn.

Grots might not kill much but if they are sitting on objective killing them helps in what matters. VP's.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote:
I mean, grot's aren't super good but they're cheaper than 80 points. You also have to take into account that people aren't scared of a grot mob and often ignore them in shooting. Find a hole for them to hide ii on an objective and you're gonna score points. And while idk if point for point they're worth the 50 they cost I'll still take them.

All my opponent clear them out ASAP, usually by split-firing some secondary guns of tanks or planes. Even if they send a dedicated unit after my gretchin, it usually means losing 10+ VP for me, so using terminators or similar to kill gretchin is no longer a waste of point, but a game-winner.

IMO, once all players have realized how important taking away primary VP is, gretchin will stop being an option.

I mentioned this a few pages back: backfield protection, which is something that need to be considered imho.

Grotz job is screening away deep strikes (which their larger footprint suits better than Kommandos), but you also need a countercharge option. Everything can´t just go into the central scrum or chase glory at the far end of the battlefield. I´m thinking of the various dreads here. They have big footprints and work well as multi purpose threats at short-midrange that is the backfield area. These units need to last at least one battle round so the relief can get there in the next.

Over all I believe you need to see the whole army and battlefield as an interlinked entity that reacts depending on the development of the battle. Not a tool to eliminate the most enemies at point x which has been 40k since Rogue Trader. This game has matured into a modern game where pursuing kills just doesn´t cut it.

Personally, I think durable or killy backfield units will be the what orks need. Units like kommadoz or flayed ones will become more common, so a cheap deff dread with two saws and two KMB sitting on an objective might be an actual option.
A trukk with the boyz sitting inside also worked well for me - even if they deny your objective for one turn (which can be made harder by positioning the trukk as a shield), you can get out and krump them afterwards to get it back. With gretchin, the objective is just gone for the rest of game, unless you park an expensive buggy there.

 Grimskul wrote:
Props to you man, I cannot imagine playing with that many grot and boyz models, I've only gone up to 100 boyz that one time Green Tide as a formation was a thing in 7th ed. Classic example of having too many bodies for your opponent to handle, but I feel like that really drains you when it comes to gaming, at least it's not feasible IMO for most people in tournaments.

It`s ok, i am using MDF movement trays (check out the ebay seller 2005helliwell), they have less than 1mm space between models and rounded edges, so you can move fast and basicly without loss of space. The GW apocalypse trays are trash for that matter and way more expensive. So coherency is no issue and movement takes less than 5 minutes.
Still thats not a list i play regularly, except for sparring matches with the tournament players in my hobby club. Its effective but just moving 200+ models on objectives without killing much and do not much besides scoring and blocking enemy movement is really boring.
Also while the trays help with playing fast you still gotta roll LOTS of dice for 5++ & 6+++ and want to keep as much stuff as possible within KFF (and Dok).

 Jidmah wrote:
All my opponent clear them out ASAP, usually by split-firing some secondary guns of tanks or planes. Even if they send a dedicated unit after my gretchin, it usually means losing 10+ VP for me, so using terminators or similar to kill gretchin is no longer a waste of point, but a game-winner.

IMO, once all players have realized how important taking away primary VP is, gretchin will stop being an option.

Thats true. Only good thing is, that in 8th edition loosing 7 Grots meant they run away automaticly with 4 losses this being also possible.
In 9th edition morale is way less punishing for them, even loosing 9 has the chance to roll a 1 and just loosing 7-8 gives you a good chance that at least 1 grot will survive combat attrition tests.
But like you said, most of the time there is enough small guns that can still clear 10 dudes and good players will use more expensive stuff to kill them if that means you score just 5 or 10 primary points next turn.
Nevertheless they are a nice backup for Raising banners though, which is sometimes still one of the best secondary choices in particular matchups & missions.
In my second game yesterday i had 2 x Trukkboys and 1 x Grot and had to disembark them turn 1 to raise the two flags in front of my deployment zone, in that moment i really wished i had 3 mobs. ^^

But what might be a good alternative for them? My kommandos are for engage and to get to other objectives and the characters don`t really want to do it either while the koptas can`t. If they were a little cheaper i might even consider running 2 x 5 Stormboys to Raise banners while the vehicles drive around them and maybe get even to hide them.
At least they are the only options if you want to raise midfield banners turn one that are more than 8" from your deployment zone. (Which is 2/3 of the missions)

I had many games where i did not max out Engage & Raise the banners ending up with 12-14 points each.

Scactha wrote:
Grotz job is screening away deep strikes (which their larger footprint suits better than Kommandos)

For screening it`s not that big of a difference. With their 32mm bases kommandos can spread about 14" while 10 Grot can spread 16".
Unless you make "T`s" with the Grotz for 2-1-1-1-1-1-1-2 instead of 1-2-2-2-2-1, but if you get 1 loss that means at least 5 of them are gone afterwards. Might be still worth it if you prevent a key unit from deepstriking.

 Jidmah wrote:
Personally, I think durable or killy backfield units will be the what orks need. Units like kommadoz or flayed ones will become more common, so a cheap deff dread with two saws and two KMB sitting on an objective might be an actual option.
A trukk with the boyz sitting inside also worked well for me - even if they deny your objective for one turn (which can be made harder by positioning the trukk as a shield), you can get out and krump them afterwards to get it back. With gretchin, the objective is just gone for the rest of game, unless you park an expensive buggy there.

I actually use dreads for babysitting backfield units sometimes, they do work but they also eat up a HS slot, a CP and 200-300 points.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote:
I mean, grot's aren't super good but they're cheaper than 80 points. You also have to take into account that people aren't scared of a grot mob and often ignore them in shooting. Find a hole for them to hide ii on an objective and you're gonna score points. And while idk if point for point they're worth the 50 they cost I'll still take them.

All my opponent clear them out ASAP, usually by split-firing some secondary guns of tanks or planes. Even if they send a dedicated unit after my gretchin, it usually means losing 10+ VP for me, so using terminators or similar to kill gretchin is no longer a waste of point, but a game-winner.

IMO, once all players have realized how important taking away primary VP is, gretchin will stop being an option.

Can't disagree with that logic. Perhaps my opponents aren't well versed in the meta of 9th yet. I was just saying what has worked well for my games up to this point!

You can screen most of your deployment with 5-6 SMG. It ´ s cheaper and do tons of damage.

Nobody shoot at them because everybody shoots the bommers or other units fighting for midfield so no need of KFF for SMG.

Main issue i see is Boyz or Grotz. If you have to fill the troop slots which is better. And honestly, I am leaning more towards boyz than ever.

stubbers and S3 equivalent guns are fairly common around here and S4 even more so. S3 wounds a Boy on a 5 but a grot on a 3. a S4 wounds the boy on a 4 but the Grot on a 2! and the math is 3 to 2 all the way until S8. The armor saves are the same so its a wash, so what you have left over is the point difference and their ability to actually hurt people going after your objective. And for 3pts more per model you get double S and double or more attacks. I just don't see Grotz being a viable unit in 9th unless they receive some new rules/buffs. If you have to take 3 troops choices the difference is 150 for 30 grotz or 240 for 30 boyz.

As far as objective camping, ive had some success with plopping boyz in a trukk on them but i've also had my opponent pop both trukkz i brought turn 1 so its still a toss up. On the other hand, I ran a pure Tide list, 180 Boyz backed by characters and NO vehicles of any sort, I won on points easily because I had too many bodies for him to remove and most of them had a 5++ and a 6+++.

Boyz are better than grots even for objective holding.
Its so easy to hurt grots my opponent doesnt even have to intentionally focus them, just throw the random odd gun their way from each unit and they die. Boyz at least arent wounded as easy and get access to deathskull invuls.

Not sure if this is the place, but do yinz think this is an ork unit?

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Boyz are better than grots even for objective holding.
Its so easy to hurt grots my opponent doesnt even have to intentionally focus them, just throw the random odd gun their way from each unit and they die. Boyz at least arent wounded as easy and get access to deathskull invuls.

Grots aren't good objective campers, I agree. Best thing they'd do is be a deep strike screen on turn 2 / 3, and saving you 30 points. They could also quickly plant a flag and die.

I think you should generally avoid them, although I also think the key to really strong mech ork lists will largely be looking at 0 boys as well.

Little digging on Nob bikers:

They are ORK BIKER SPEEDFREAK so you can use SQIUG TIRES for 1CP to get +2 move.

In case you take Evil sunz + Wartrike they get:
- Move = 14 +2 (ES) + 2 (ST) = 18” move
- Adv = 3,5+1= 4,5”. => move 22,5” and can shoot without penalties

And charge thanks to WARTRIKE. Due ES, they have +1 to charge = about 9” 50% chance border.

== real thread range is 31.5”

Or can move after shooting once again via DRIVEN-BY-KRUMPIN strategem but can' t charge.

Plus you can pimp them more:
- BILLOWINGN EXHAUST strategem to get -1 hit for 1CP per turn
- FULL SPEED LADZ! for 1CP to get +1 S per turn

nobz on bikes could be max 9 per unit

So we speak about 9x3= 27 atacks hitting on 4+ = 13,5 hits with 12 S -4 AP and 2 DMG able to charge 31,5” in turn 1 and have -1 modifier.

In case, they can have dual killsaw, it' s 25% more. But I don' t know, how can even ork can ride a bike with 2 killsaw.... But RAW they can, so

36 attacks = 18 hits for 450 points

Landrider test = 12 wounds save 6+ = 10 hits x 2DMG = landrider down with overkill of 4
Intrecessor test = 10 down

Plus they are not Fast Attack, but Elites = save slot in buggy list.

I don't make a conclusion. I just recording my digging of possibilites. Because I have a great idea for conversion



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Appendix 1: Deathskull version has range 27,5” but gains 6++ which is pretty interesting, because than you have the bikers with -1 hit and 6++ T5 9x3= 27 Wounds in models per 3. This is not so easy to clean up.

And gain some rerolls + WRECKERS = reroll wounds if VEHICLE

 Tomsug wrote:
Little digging on Nob bikers:

They are ORK BIKER SPEEDFREAK so you can use SQIUG TIRES for 1CP to get +2 move.

In case you take Evil sunz + Wartrike they get:
- Move = 14 +2 (ES) + 2 (ST) = 18” move
- Adv = 3,5+1= 4,5”. => move 22,5” and can shoot without penalties

And charge thanks to WARTRIKE. Due ES, they have +1 to charge = about 9” 50% chance border.

== real thread range is 31.5”

Or can move after shooting once again via DRIVEN-BY-KRUMPIN strategem but can' t charge.

Plus you can pimp them more:
- BILLOWINGN EXHAUST strategem to get -1 hit for 1CP per turn
- FULL SPEED LADZ! for 1CP to get +1 S per turn

nobz on bikes could be max 9 per unit

So we speak about 9x3= 27 atacks hitting on 4+ = 13,5 hits with 12 S -4 AP and 2 DMG able to charge 31,5” in turn 1 and have -1 modifier.

In case, they can have dual killsaw, it' s 25% more. But I don' t know, how can even ork can ride a bike with 2 killsaw.... But RAW they can, so

36 attacks = 18 hits for 450 points

Landrider test = 12 wounds save 6+ = 10 hits x 2DMG = landrider down with overkill of 4
Intrecessor test = 10 down

Plus they are not Fast Attack, but Elites = save slot in buggy list.

I don't make a conclusion. I just recording my digging of possibilites. Because I have a great idea for conversion



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Appendix 1: Deathskull version has range 27,5” but gains 6++ which is pretty interesting, because than you have the bikers with -1 hit and 6++ T5 9x3= 27 Wounds in models per 3. This is not so easy to clean up.

And gain some rerolls + WRECKERS = reroll wounds if VEHICLE

But the age old question remains: point cost vs value. Nob bikers fill a role, but their cost precludes them from being taken in most lists up to this point.

I'll probably give Nob Bikers a try at some point to see how they synergize with a buggy list. They may not be as crazy as they were way back in 5th ed, but I'm glad to see Nob Bikerz aren't complete wastes of time like they were before.

 Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote:

Spoiler:

 Tomsug wrote:
Little digging on Nob bikers:

They are ORK BIKER SPEEDFREAK so you can use SQIUG TIRES for 1CP to get +2 move.

In case you take Evil sunz + Wartrike they get:
- Move = 14 +2 (ES) + 2 (ST) = 18” move
- Adv = 3,5+1= 4,5”. => move 22,5” and can shoot without penalties

And charge thanks to WARTRIKE. Due ES, they have +1 to charge = about 9” 50% chance border.

== real thread range is 31.5”

Or can move after shooting once again via DRIVEN-BY-KRUMPIN strategem but can' t charge.

Plus you can pimp them more:
- BILLOWINGN EXHAUST strategem to get -1 hit for 1CP per turn
- FULL SPEED LADZ! for 1CP to get +1 S per turn

nobz on bikes could be max 9 per unit

So we speak about 9x3= 27 atacks hitting on 4+ = 13,5 hits with 12 S -4 AP and 2 DMG able to charge 31,5” in turn 1 and have -1 modifier.

In case, they can have dual killsaw, it' s 25% more. But I don' t know, how can even ork can ride a bike with 2 killsaw.... But RAW they can, so

36 attacks = 18 hits for 450 points

Landrider test = 12 wounds save 6+ = 10 hits x 2DMG = landrider down with overkill of 4
Intrecessor test = 10 down

Plus they are not Fast Attack, but Elites = save slot in buggy list.

I don't make a conclusion. I just recording my digging of possibilites. Because I have a great idea for conversion



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Appendix 1: Deathskull version has range 27,5” but gains 6++ which is pretty interesting, because than you have the bikers with -1 hit and 6++ T5 9x3= 27 Wounds in models per 3. This is not so easy to clean up.

And gain some rerolls + WRECKERS = reroll wounds if VEHICLE

But the age old question remains: point cost vs value. Nob bikers fill a role, but their cost precludes them from being taken in most lists up to this point.

Indeed. Death stars is harder to argue for when the game is one turn shorter, we score per turn and you need to have a response for all parts of the board. The good part of this is that the tools doesn´t matter as much as long as you cover all bases.

On the topic in question, Nobz Bikes is abit like a Swiss knife imo. Fast enough to contest objectives and killy enough to chase things off.whilst decently durable. The problem is cost vs efficiency. 450 is a Death star, but I´d like them scaled down.

I've had a thought and wonder what you guys think to this.

In 9th edition, the game is all about scoring objectives, and usually there are bonus points for infantry units to perform actions. this, of course, ties up the unit for the whole turn.

I've heard of people bringing units of kommandos for objectives, but I'm considering bringing some Meks and perhaps even a Runtherd or two, grots dependent, to ride in vehicles with my units and to perform these actions while the unit gets to give them cover and still perform their day-to-day killing.

I'm thinking 10 boys, in a trukk, with a mek. get them into the opponents deployment zone, screen the mek with the boys and screen the boys with the trukk, and then the mek can repair teleport homer or another action, and the boys still get to use their guns.

Advantages over kommandos being that the mek has a decent gun for opportunistic shots, is easier to hide, can ride in a trukk with a unit of boys, and has character protection.

has anyone tried using meks or runtherds to this capacity?

Besides teleport homers, there is no relevant action that can be taken by characters.

Character protection also needs another unit nearby, so why isn't that unit performing the action? And I wouldn't exactly call the kustom mega slugga a "decent gun".

 Jidmah wrote:
Besides teleport homers, there is no relevant action that can be taken by characters.

Character protection also needs another unit nearby, so why isn't that unit performing the action? And I wouldn't exactly call the kustom mega slugga a "decent gun".

well, it's better for pot-shots than a slugga!

they are also useful for linebreaker, when you can't spare a unit to hang around back there. the unit giving them protection can do some shooting or fighting while the mek does his thing.

Yeah with KMB they were ok as Death Skulls. Sadly the pistol is useless.
If there was still the option for a barebone mek for 25 he might be worth a try, but even then i am not sure about it.
They can still raise the banners though, in that case you don`t need protection anyway because it does not matter what happens to them in your opponents turn.
But i guess you still wanna hold the objective for primary points so you will have something else there as well.

I have a similar problem in my buggie lists.
You reach 1-3 objectives turn one and can only raise banners with infantry.
So you need Grots (expensive), Trukkboys (in some deployments you don`t really want to disembark 1-3 mobs turn 1), Kommandos (but they want to infiltrate for Engage, Linebreaker, harrassing or getting to other objectives), Stormboys (expensive) or characters (mostly in vehicles or otherwise busy).

If you can go for bring it down or other stuff it`s not that bad, but against armies that deny good secondaries I end up with Engage + Raise the banners a lot.

 some bloke wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Besides teleport homers, there is no relevant action that can be taken by characters.

Character protection also needs another unit nearby, so why isn't that unit performing the action? And I wouldn't exactly call the kustom mega slugga a "decent gun".

well, it's better for pot-shots than a slugga!

they are also useful for linebreaker, when you can't spare a unit to hang around back there. the unit giving them protection can do some shooting or fighting while the mek does his thing.

I run Da Red Gobbo quite often for the lulz, and he really is just a better version of the mek. In practice, you never get to shoot that 12" gun at anything of worth. Any time the character can place a teleporter homer, the unit accompanying him can be doing that instead, because they have even worse guns, and you need to hide both from view anyways. When you are using trukk boyz to score linebreaker, 30 points of mek really don't enable them to do anything they couldn't have done without it. On the flip side, bringing a bunch of meks and runtherds allows your opponent to pick assassinate and get an easy 15 VP from wiping out ridiculously easy to kill ork characters.

A mek isn't great for the same reason why Makari isn't. A single model without exceptional close combat skills can't take an objective from anyone and if the only quality you have is being a model, there are better options.

I think GW explicitly wrote their secondaries in a way that cheap characters can't exploit them, and I'll say they were fairly successful at that.

I am curious people's opinions on small scale orks. we are doing a little patrol league 500 points or 25 power (undetermined yet which) normally i would throw together something cheeky and themed. but its mostly space marines and custodes and i am having difficulty staying on the board past turn 3 against marines before i am wiped completely. doesn't need to be uber power but i would liek to be on even footing and i am fairly convinced nothing in our book holds a candle to a mediocre marines list.

My alternative strategy is dig into my marines collection but as one of the few non imperial players it would be more monotone.

currently leaning for power level

Well, after some experiments, I just say, Jidmah is right. What actions exactly?

Mek can do just Rise the banners and Teleport homer.

Teleport homer is nonsence. To get full 15VP, you need to get him to enemy deploy zone T2. So deepstrike or Da Jump and then keep him alive for 4 turns??

Rise the banners - let' s say Mek goes with boyz in Trukk. In case, boyz needs to fight, there are enemies in range of objective so you can't rise the banners. In case you can rise the banner, boyz can do it.

The only situation is, when boyz blocking enemy outside 3” range of objective and the trukk is still alive to keep Mek save. But it seems hard to manage.


General question is - what of the this secondaries chapter worth to take?

Rise the banners - you need 3 objectives x 5 turn to get max or equivalent. That could work.

Investigate - hard to clear center, no.

Deploy scrambles - max 10 VP so no?

Telyport hommer - 4 per turn = 3-4 turns in enemy zone = start T1 or T2 with some easy to hide and hard to kill unit. Da Jump 3 MANz? Hide some Kommandos?

imo expecting to max each secondary is pointless.
I aim to max 1 of them and 10 for the other 2.

There is a scenario for Mek. If you screen your deployment with SMG and play rise the banners high. Than your Mek rise once a banner and stay alive close to SMG.

Seems that secondaries that require actions are generally not worth taking. There may be some exceptions - depending on the ma and opponent, but you're usually better off with just killing and scoring secondaries.

 Jidmah wrote:


I run Da Red Gobbo quite often for the lulz, and he really is just a better version of the mek. In practice, you never get to shoot that 12" gun at anything of worth. Any time the character can place a teleporter homer, the unit accompanying him can be doing that instead, because they have even worse guns, and you need to hide both from view anyways. When you are using trukk boyz to score linebreaker, 30 points of mek really don't enable them to do anything they couldn't have done without it. On the flip side, bringing a bunch of meks and runtherds allows your opponent to pick assassinate and get an easy 15 VP from wiping out ridiculously easy to kill ork characters.
A mek isn't great for the same reason why Makari isn't. A single model without exceptional close combat skills can't take an objective from anyone and if the only quality you have is being a model, there are better options.

I think GW explicitly wrote their secondaries in a way that cheap characters can't exploit them, and I'll say they were fairly successful at that.

Assassinate and bring it down are in the same category. So if you're a highly mechanized / mek gun heavy force, it's sort of irrelevant if you spam characters, as they can't get 15 VPs from BOTH secondaries.

I think in most matchups, its easy for Orks to do engage or domination, but yeah, having a plan for raise the banners is probably something you'd need in a tournament if the opponent does not give up a good kill secondary. SM are the pocket example -- A lot of their lists have 0 good kill seecondaries.

The mech list needs a game plan to keep up, as by definition you're behind by 10-15 points without a good kill secondary. If you can't make it up with secondaries, you have to absolutely dominate on primary, which won't always be easy.

Domination is usually my go-to yeah. Except on missions with 6 objectives, because you have to hold 4 of them to "have more than half" which is annoying.
It also goes hand-in-hand with the primary, least it has with the missions ive done as i havent done them all yet. Generally if i got 15pts on the primary i also got domination that round.

I do feel like the action secondaries need to be buffed. Only a couple of the mission-specific ones feel worth it to me. Banners is a joke because you cant do the same action multiple times per turn, so its actually the worst one imo. You get almost no points off of it until you have 3 banners raised, and unless you get the 4th you still arent getting many points off of it and thats asking a LOT for the enemy to not approach an objective and mess it all up.

 koooaei wrote:
Seems that secondaries that require actions are generally not worth taking. There may be some exceptions - depending on the ma and opponent, but you're usually better off with just killing and scoring secondaries.

Sure but as you see - there is a lot of situations, when some of these is the only playable third secondary. So it´s good to be ready.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Domination is usually my go-to yeah. Except on missions with 6 objectives, because you have to hold 4 of them to "have more than half" which is annoying.
It also goes hand-in-hand with the primary, least it has with the missions ive done as i havent done them all yet. Generally if i got 15pts on the primary i also got domination that round.

I do feel like the action secondaries need to be buffed. Only a couple of the mission-specific ones feel worth it to me. Banners is a joke because you cant do the same action multiple times per turn, so its actually the worst one imo. You get almost no points off of it until you have 3 banners raised, and unless you get the 4th you still arent getting many points off of it and thats asking a LOT for the enemy to not approach an objective and mess it all up.

You can raise multiple banners in a turn. It's the only exception (so far) to performing the same action twice.

It's not so bad, but it's something the enemy can play around easily simply by doing well at the primary game.. which they should. If you are confident holding 2 points of the board and can raise turn 1, that is 10 VPs, though.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Domination is usually my go-to yeah. Except on missions with 6 objectives, because you have to hold 4 of them to "have more than half" which is annoying.
It also goes hand-in-hand with the primary, least it has with the missions ive done as i havent done them all yet. Generally if i got 15pts on the primary i also got domination that round.

That is the general question - have secondaries that corelate with primaries (domination, banners) and stay focused, or have secondaries distracting from primaries to play on more fields...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another use of Mek - make him your warlord with Kunnin but Brutal and hide him in your deploy. Enemy can' t kill your warlord.

But does enybody play Cut of the head?

Except me of course, but play it with bunch of SMG and wazboom againts tank commanders makes sence.

Potential use case for Storm boyz?

5 Stormboyz is 60 points (woof) -- but that's only 5 more than 5 kommandos w/ Klaw.

Throw 5 Stormboyz into a wagon, then once the wagon is midfield, have them jump out and perform the deploy scramblers action in the enemy deployment zone as they can move 12". Should be an easy way to guarantee that one, as the midboard / deployment zone version is super easy for Orks. 10 VPs from that secondary irrespective of enemy army.

tulun wrote:
Potential use case for Storm boyz?

5 Stormboyz is 60 points (woof) -- but that's only 5 more than 5 kommandos w/ Klaw.

Throw 5 Stormboyz into a wagon, then once the wagon is midfield, have them jump out and perform the deploy scramblers action in the enemy deployment zone as they can move 12". Should be an easy way to guarantee that one, as the midboard / deployment zone version is super easy for Orks. 10 VPs from that secondary irrespective of enemy army.

Deepstrike Kommando is easier, cheaper and impossible to deny. Deepstrike Stormboyz is also possible.

 koooaei wrote:
Seems that secondaries that require actions are generally not worth taking. There may be some exceptions - depending on the ma and opponent, but you're usually better off with just killing and scoring secondaries.

I had many games where i could not go for good killing secondaries, often they all max out at 9 or it`s incredibly hard to get 12+.
Also more and more people build their lists to minimize potential secondaries or are allready giving out just a few with popular builds and you need to kill all relevant models to just get a score of 9-12 points.

Warpcraft is a joke unless you face TS or Psyker heavy Daemons, GK or Aeldari.
Battlefield Supremacy is Engage 99% of the time unless you go for a aggressive green tide.
No Mercy is almost always useless since we have more squishy units than most armies and kill more is a no go mostly, as is While we stand.
No respite & Purge the enemy are highly situational and gives easy points in some matchups, otherwise they are no more than a back up for some safe points but no maxing out.
So Shadow operations is the only real joker we have since you can always plan for it and go for some steady or even maxing out points here.

tulun wrote:
Potential use case for Storm boyz?

5 Stormboyz is 60 points (woof) -- but that's only 5 more than 5 kommandos w/ Klaw.

Throw 5 Stormboyz into a wagon, then once the wagon is midfield, have them jump out and perform the deploy scramblers action in the enemy deployment zone as they can move 12". Should be an easy way to guarantee that one, as the midboard / deployment zone version is super easy for Orks. 10 VPs from that secondary irrespective of enemy army.

Yeah i`ve been thinking about them as well. At first a full mob to accompany buggies and trukks to flip objectives, but those 5 Stormboys look more and more attractive to me.
Either 5 in a waggon just like you said, or hiding 1-2 x 5 behind a ruin to engage / raise banners midfield.

With Koptas, Kommandos, Stormboys together with your usual buggy / waggon stuff you can score great on primary points, engage and raise the banners and take a 3rd secondary depending on opponent. At least that`s how i am doing it so far unless there are better no brainers in a certain matchup.
Gonna give them a try and see how it works out. 120 points for 2 x 5 is quite an investment for 12 6+ wounds...

why would you put stormboyz in a wagon?
They still cant do the action until T2 as they cant get out of the wagon after it moves. At that point, just deepstrike them.
Which still goes back to kommandoz as theyre cheaper and are actually harder to kill because of the bonus cover save, if it applies. If it doesnt, theyre exactly as hard to kill (i.e. not)

Stormboyz / Kommando - it maybe depends on the rest of your list. Both can work the same way but SLOTS! elites vs fast attack....

yeah, thats another factor.
And with buggies being so good right now, FA is a premium.

 Grotrebel wrote:

tulun wrote:
Potential use case for Storm boyz?

5 Stormboyz is 60 points (woof) -- but that's only 5 more than 5 kommandos w/ Klaw.

Throw 5 Stormboyz into a wagon, then once the wagon is midfield, have them jump out and perform the deploy scramblers action in the enemy deployment zone as they can move 12". Should be an easy way to guarantee that one, as the midboard / deployment zone version is super easy for Orks. 10 VPs from that secondary irrespective of enemy army.

Yeah i`ve been thinking about them as well. At first a full mob to accompany buggies and trukks to flip objectives, but those 5 Stormboys look more and more attractive to me.
Either 5 in a waggon just like you said, or hiding 1-2 x 5 behind a ruin to engage / raise banners midfield.

With Koptas, Kommandos, Stormboys together with your usual buggy / waggon stuff you can score great on primary points, engage and raise the banners and take a 3rd secondary depending on opponent. At least that`s how i am doing it so far unless there are better no brainers in a certain matchup.
Gonna give them a try and see how it works out. 120 points for 2 x 5 is quite an investment for 12 6+ wounds...

Yeah, I think I'll give the 5 man a try. I think there's some interesting potential.

It's really about how little you can spend to achieve some of these secondaries that might seem impossible in other matches where they don't have psykers, vehicles, monsters, or a ton of easy to snipe characters.

Vineheart01 wrote:
why would you put stormboyz in a wagon?
They still cant do the action until T2 as they cant get out of the wagon after it moves. At that point, just deepstrike them.
Which still goes back to kommandoz as theyre cheaper and are actually harder to kill because of the bonus cover save, if it applies. If it doesnt, theyre exactly as hard to kill (i.e. not)

Deploy scramblers is end of turn -- surivability is irrelevant. The concern is if you think your Kommandos are going to be screened out. If that's not a concern, they can achieve this.

Stormboyz could work with Nob biker Spam. Thanks this slot game. Something like:




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Deploy Scramblers is almost autopass if you take 2x5 Stormboyz / Kommandos and deepstrike them. But just 10 VP.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
why would you put stormboyz in a wagon?
They still cant do the action until T2 as they cant get out of the wagon after it moves. At that point, just deepstrike them.
Which still goes back to kommandoz as theyre cheaper and are actually harder to kill because of the bonus cover save, if it applies. If it doesnt, theyre exactly as hard to kill (i.e. not)

Well you get 3" disembarking + 12" movement so you could just disembark turn 1 before the waggon moves.
Either to go for a raise the flag midfield or a engage with advancing.
Plus deepstriking turn 2 means 9" distance to enemy models. That means there is a high chance the relevant objectives are blocked by enemy models. DS Stormboys in a waggon could disembark turn 2 and steal an objective from something like transport with their ObSec so the opponent gets to score less.
Since objectives are not in terrain kommandos on objectives won`t get their bonus if they want to camp there most of the time.
Also for the relevant secondaries surving is not needed. Just get there and score.

 Tomsug wrote:
Stormboyz / Kommando - it maybe depends on the rest of your list. Both can work the same way but SLOTS! elites vs fast attack....

Yeah thats the other thing. But for most of my lists i go for an outrider detachment.
3 Scrapjets, 3 Dragsta and you still got 4 slots for 1-2 Kopta, 1-2 Stormboys and maybe KBB.
You keep your buggies in 1 slot anaways to get all of them their custom upgrade.

 Tomsug wrote:


Deploy Scramblers is almost autopass if you take 2x5 Stormboyz / Kommandos and deepstrike them. But just 10 VP.

Honestly, if you can guarantee 10 VP against SM / Custodes (or other similar elite armies with horrible secondary choices), that seems like a win.

tulun wrote:

 Tomsug wrote:


Deploy Scramblers is almost autopass if you take 2x5 Stormboyz / Kommandos and deepstrike them. But just 10 VP.

Honestly, if you can guarantee 10 VP against SM / Custodes (or other similar elite armies with horrible secondary choices), that seems like a win.

Than:

1 x Mek do scrables T1 in your deployment
1 x trukboyz or whatever in midfield T2
1 x Kommandos DS T3 in enemy deploy

= cheapest way

Characters can’t do scramblers sadly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The cheapest way is probably 3 kommando squads, though, if you have no other infantry.

45x3, 135 points. Deploy 1 turn one in your zone and scramble; infiltrate when you have the chance for the other 2. The smarter way is probably just taking 10 grots, and then using whatever other deep striking units to achieve it, though.

tulun wrote:
Characters can’t do scramblers sadly.

Argh damn.. so something about 50p = kommandos, stormboyz, gretchkin.

What I found as crucial = if you play such secondaries with non infrantry list (and have just a few infantry for this purpous) and your enemy is clever enought, he kills you this units ASAP. And it' s pretty easy to delete such small weak units in T1 with some out of LOS fire. So essencial is to keep them in DS or other type of “to be sure” cover. Because in such list there is no redundancy. One Kommandos dead and no Scramblers at all...

Guys, all of our problems are solved.

For a mere 2 cp, we can upgrade our boys to 'Ard Boys!

Woof, GW.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/09/03/our-top-5-warhammer-40000-take-and-hold-specialists/

yeah i saw that and almost burst out laughing.
I was seriously hoping they took that opportunity to make it 1cp. At 1cp i MIGHT use it, 2 is a freaking joke especially now that ap1 is gonna be even more common.

I would also take a 4+ save for 2cp.

I always felt that they should have scaled it. Make it 1 CP for 4+ save if the unit is at or under PL 7, 2CP if their PL is 8 or more. Though just making it a points option is another thing they could have just done, make it a 1 or 2 point upgrade for the unit.

Really highlights how OOT GW is when it comes to non-marine units as far as rules go.

I've only played the Core Rulebook so far for the secondaries, how much better would you say the changes are for the GT2020 secondaries in comparison? I noticed scramblers is one of the new stuff that isn't present in the main rule version, and stuff like Slay the Warlord is tiered instead. Should my gaming group swap over to that one or are the changes minimal?

 Grimskul wrote:
I always felt that they should have scaled it. Make it 1 CP for 4+ save if the unit is at or under PL 7, 2CP if their PL is 8 or more. Though just making it a points option is another thing they could have just done, make it a 1 or 2 point upgrade for the unit.

Really highlights how OOT GW is when it comes to non-marine units as far as rules go.

I've only played the Core Rulebook so far for the secondaries, how much better would you say the changes are for the GT2020 secondaries in comparison? I noticed scramblers is one of the new stuff that isn't present in the main rule version, and stuff like Slay the Warlord is tiered instead. Should my gaming group swap over to that one or are the changes minimal?

Honestly the secondaries are still completely goddamn broken in the GT pack so, who cares.

Any army with 3 psyker characters is cartoonishly easy to attack thru secondaries, as is any army with cheap vehicle units.

I played with someone who tought it was a good idea to bring 3x guard psykers for scoring a secondary at some point and it was so, so, so, so stupid. I maxed 2 secondaries turn 2 with almost zero effort.

Ok, so this is a question that I don't think deserves a whole thread, but what transports are da best? Trukks or battlewagons? I'm planning to use MANZ in trukks, so I would like to know your opinions.

 Misclicking ork wrote:
Ok, so this is a question that I don't think deserves a whole thread, but what transports are da best? Trukks or battlewagons? I'm planning to use MANZ in trukks, so I would like to know your opinions.

If you're planning to use MANZ, I would suggest battlewagons. You can have a unit of 10 boyz with up to 5 MANZ so that way you not only cover the troop tax, but you also give your MANZ a way to avoid taking casualties in case your BW blows up before dropping them off.

Grimskul is right but honestly, MANz should be in 2 units, one walk, second deepstrike. And all under supervision of warboss giving them advance and charge...

I kind of like to avoid all inning it, and try to have different value targets in different vehicles to spread out the target priority for the enemy. Yeah the wagon full of boys is scary and tough. But the trukk with some MANZ will likely do more when it gets there. A wagon full of MANZ just has too big a target painted on it in my mind.

cody.d. wrote:
I kind of like to avoid all inning it, and try to have different value targets in different vehicles to spread out the target priority for the enemy. Yeah the wagon full of boys is scary and tough. But the trukk with some MANZ will likely do more when it gets there. A wagon full of MANZ just has too big a target painted on it in my mind.

I definitely prefer wagons for Manz instead of trukks. Trukks are easy to kill even with armor redundancy and don't have enough transport capacity to allow cheaper bodies to ride with Manz; they're invaluable if the vehicle is wrecked and you roll 1s. My go-to for Manz is BW with 5 of them plus 10 boyz or 5 kommandos. Otherwise I wouldn't bother with a transport for meganobz at all.

Da jump or tellyporta are also excellent options to deliver meganobz.

Quick question to you Old Uns' : I just read the Morkanaut / Gorkanaut FAQ and Big N'Stompy has been changed. Can they not fall back and shoot anymore ???

 Nym wrote:
Quick question to you Old Uns' : I just read the Morkanaut / Gorkanaut FAQ and Big N'Stompy has been changed. Can they not fall back and shoot anymore ???

Correct. Pretty much every walker in that class (knights) lost the ability to natively fall back and shoot. Thankfully the gorkanaughts in particular have little problem firing all their dakka point blank (especially with slug gubbingz!) then swinging with their fairly decent melee to pull themselves out of combat.Though the Mork can't fire it's main gun into combat, having the blast keyword i think.

cody.d. wrote:

 Nym wrote:
Quick question to you Old Uns' : I just read the Morkanaut / Gorkanaut FAQ and Big N'Stompy has been changed. Can they not fall back and shoot anymore ???

Correct. Pretty much every walker in that class (knights) lost the ability to natively fall back and shoot.

Plot twist - they didn't. TITANIC units can still fall back and shoot, they probably forgot (again) that nauts aren't titanic.

Thankfully the gorkanaughts in particular have little problem firing all their dakka point blank (especially with slug gubbingz!) then swinging with their fairly decent melee to pull themselves out of combat.Though the Mork can't fire it's main gun into combat, having the blast keyword i think.

The klaw of mork is still a pretty good deterrent against chargers, and the four big shootas, two rokkits and KMB hitting on 4+ still have somewhat a chance of getting the naut out of combat against chaff.

 koooaei wrote:
Seems that secondaries that require actions are generally not worth taking. There may be some exceptions - depending on the ma and opponent, but you're usually better off with just killing and scoring secondaries.

Without actions and without kill secondaries like bring it down what secondaries? Winning lists will minimize killing　scenarios.　15 from those will be very rare　in competive lists.

So, basically we have:

Battlefield Supremacy
- Engage on all Fronts (2 VP for 3 quarters, 3 VP for 4 quarters) you need to be able to move 13" to score this T1, can be scored by AIRCRAFT
- Linebreaker (4VP for two units being fully in your opponent's deployment zone, no AIRCRAFT) evil suns might be able to score this T1, and da jump can help with this.
- Domination (3VP for holding more than half of the objectives at the end of your turn) unlike primaries, these cannot be denied and can be scored T1, but might be difficult depending on map and enemy

No Mercy, No Respite
- Thin their Ranks (1VP per 10 models killed, models with 10+ wounds count as 10) this great against any army with many easy to kill bodies or multiple rhino-equivalent vehicles. Auto-win vs necrons
- Grind them down (3 VP if you kill more *units* than your opponent) This one is luck-based even for my DG, never considered it for orks. Note you also get 0 VP if you draw even.
- While we stand, we fight (5 VP for each of the three most expensive *models* you field, if they survive the battle) I tried to score this once with my DG, naming Mortarion and two DG DP as my most expensive models. Gain 0 VP. I'm not even to giving this a chance for orks.

Purge the Enemy
- Titan hunter (Kill TITANIC models for 12 VP)
- Bring it down (Kill vehicles for 2/3 VP, threshold at 10 wounds)
- Cut off the head (Slay the warlord, 13/10/6/3/1 VP depending on battle round) Unless your opponent has a warlord you can take down by dropping a burna bommer on it, this isn't really something orks can do before turn 3.
- Assassinate (3VP per character destroyed)

Shadow operation
- Raise banners (action, any INFANTRY, unit can move, cannot be interrupted, 1 VP per banner in command phase) To max out this, you need to raise three banners T1 and do not lose any of them or rise more banners than the opponent takes down
- Investigate sites (action, one non-character INFANTRY, unit can move, cannot be interrupted, 3 VP if no enemies are within 6" of the center) This is nigh impossible to max, and easily denied to 0 points, as a single enemy model can prevent you from taking the action
- Scramblers (action, one non-character INFANTRY, unit can move, cannot be interrupted, 10 VP if performed 3 times). You need to scramble both deployment zones and once outside of both. Not to hard to archive, but if you are running a buggy lists you can get denied to 0 VP if your opponent focuses down your infantry.
- Teleport homers (action, one INFANTRY, unit can move, can be interrupted, 4 VP each time). This is a high risk, high reward objective. There is no infantry in our codex that can be in your opponent's deployment zone T1, so you need to get this every turn to max it out. However, even if you only manage two or three times, it still give a decent reward.

Warpcraft
- Abhor the witch (3/5VP for killing psykers) Auto-take if you don't have weird boy and your opponent has more than one psyker. I wouldn't leave the weird boy at home just to screw over TS and GK though, but they don't mesh well with buggies anyways.
- Mental interrogation (psychic action, one psyker, WC4, need to be within 18" of a character, 3 VP). Being able to cast this first turn is unlikely and you can't cast anything else in the same turn. Bringing a weirdboy that might accidentally explode while most likely being in deny range just for this doesn't seem like a good plan.
- Ritual (psychic action, one psyker, WC3, must be in the middle, 15 VP if the same psyker casts it 3 times). Very fun objective for friendly games, but it can go hilariously wrong if your weird boy explodes on the third cast. As only one psyker can cast it and they are unlikely to be within 6" of the middle during T1, you really don't have any margin for error. "No margin for error" and "weird boy" is a really bad combo.
- Pierce the veil (psychic action, one psyker, WC4, need to be within 6" of opponent's battlefield edge, no enemies within 6", 8/15 VP for casting it 2x/4x with one psyker) A slightly better version of the ritual. I guess you could use one weird boy to jump another weird boy into a hard to reach place and start casting T1 or have him jump there T2 and be protected by other deep strikers. You are still likely to be in deny range and you still can only have one psyker rack up the count.

So in general, picking objectives goes like this for me:
1) Pick one from purge the enemy unless none of them apply.
2) Check if "thin their ranks" works against enemy army, because orks are really good at killing lots of weak models.
3) Abhor the witch if possible and enemy has at least two psyker characters you have a realistic chance to kill (don't pick this if your opponent only has two farseers).
4) Pick Battlefield supremacy depending your and enemies mobility, and your ability to shift them off objective (Linebreaker is easier to archive against marines than domination if they go first)
5) Shadow operations

Thin their ranks isn't that useful vs that many(playing with my necrons i have faced it once. Gave like 5vp to enemy. Albeit　1.5k game). And not autowin vs necrons. Competive necrons haven't been fielding warriors and immortals long time and even less in 9th. Plus rp is dead rule as to use it unit needs to actually survive. That's not happening except once　in a blue moon. So don't count on rp giving more　bodies to kill. Necrons　learned early in 8th already rp doesn't help

Titan　slayer btw　is 10/12/15 for killing　1/2/3

Cut off the head - could be scored T1 or T2 if

1. Warlord is leman russ tank commander (or similar?)
2. Orks have wazboom, smg etc. Long range anti tank.

I scored it couple of times this way againts my guard friends. They want to shoot with him so you can shoot back.

That's certainly one way it can be archieved.

Though if IG player isn't moving tank so it can only be seen by part of ork army he deserves to give full vp's.

I feel like so far for most of my games (at least if you're using a buggy list) that Engage on All Fronts and Linebreaker are my two mains, and then I decide on the final one based on the mission, since stuff like Scorched Earth or other ones are usually more feasible than the other kill more or action based secondaries.

 Tomsug wrote:
Cut off the head - could be scored T1 or T2 if

1. Warlord is leman russ tank commander (or similar?)
2. Orks have wazboom, smg etc. Long range anti tank.

I scored it couple of times this way againts my guard friends. They want to shoot with him so you can shoot back.

My main Guard buddy always makes one of his on-foot characters his warlord for that reason. Orks will score a T1 kill against a Tank Commander WL 99% of the time.^^

You could troll your opponent and play a SAG / SSAG with the sniping trait and da jump him turn 1 for an T1 warlord kill unless its something with an 3++ which will be kinda hard. Maybe a Burna Bommer can help as well.
He might even survive if you have enough buggies / waggons to drive around him.

Did that once or twice in 9th and used this a lot in 8th to snipe my buddies BA Primaris Ancient to get rid of that awfull FnP.
He was not amused.

 Grimskul wrote:
I feel like so far for most of my games (at least if you're using a buggy list) that Engage on All Fronts and Linebreaker are my two mains, and then I decide on the final one based on the mission, since stuff like Scorched Earth or other ones are usually more feasible than the other kill more or action based secondaries.

What do you use for Linebreaker? I go for Engage all the time because i feel my opponent can do less against Engage than Linebreaker.

 Grimskul wrote:
I feel like so far for most of my games (at least if you're using a buggy list) that Engage on All Fronts and Linebreaker are my two mains, and then I decide on the final one based on the mission, since stuff like Scorched Earth or other ones are usually more feasible than the other kill more or action based secondaries.

You can have Engage on all Fronts and Linebreaker at the same time though?

Same question here - with 3 SJD and some Kommandos, Engage is easy.

Generaly - situation that one of seconderies is clear win for the other side because of your list is very often. Cut of the head, assasinate, abhorn the witch, grim them down....

I'm looking to get into Orks for 9th. They were my first army and I sold them a decade ago and kinda want to jump back in with a xenos army after my two years hiatus from 40k.
I've been reading this thread and digging in elsewhere, but I'm still trying to digest the new edition and missions etc.

I'm leaning into Speed Freaks / Evil Sunz right now. Something very mobile that's the opposite of my last army (AdMech pre-tranaports). So, here's what I'm thinking:

2x Trikes
8x Nob Bikers (mix of saws, BCs?)
3x KBBs
3x SJDs
1x Scrapjet
2x Deffkoptas
3x Trukk Boyz
1x Burna bommer

I guess this would be in an Outrider detachment.


I'm still working out particulars, but figured I'd get some input before I get too far ahead of myself. It does generally consist of models I actually want to build, btw. That's kinda a part of the reason behind some choices.

Any sage advice?

Looks solid so far. Death Skulls would be the superior choice for all your units except maybe the Nobbikers, but i guess you wanna paint them red?
Well you can still paint them red and just play as DS, thats what everyone is doing basicly.^^

Maybe add 1-2 Scrapjets and reduce KBB to 2 models but if you like the model you can absolutely play it. Those 3 Buggies are the ones you wanna go for.
Nob Bikers might not be the most competetive choice but if you go for Evil Sunz and don`t play tournaments you can upgrade your ES detachment with the Vigilus book to an Kult of Speed detachment and get 2 awesome strategems. (Double movement instead adding D6" when advancing & 2D6 instead 3" consolidation move)
Also, if you read the comments a few pages back, they can work with those kind of buggie lists, especially if you want to go for a fast low model count army.

Nobs & Nob Bikers are best equipped with double saw since the second saw is cheaper and you get an extra attack. I would go for 2-4 saw nobs and equip the rest with choppa + big choppa. That way each one of them gets 1 extra S5 attack and can use the other attacks for the big choppa.

Your list is about 1900 points if you play the boys without upgrades so one more Scrapjet can easily fit in. You could gear up the boys with double saw nob and take 1 rokkit if you like to get fancy stuff, but keep in mind its just 10 6+ dudes so it`s never wrong to just keep them cheap.
Personally i like to have at least 1 saw to proper kill Primaris and the like and if you go for DS the saw & rokkit(s) become quite good with all the rerolls.

If you are going evil suns and bikers... zhardsnark is an easy include.. he’s actually decent for his cost. With the biggest boss strat of course.

Got another game in, aganist a mate with genestealer cults. The boomer feels pretty meh to be honest, Not accurate enough to bother infantry, not hard hitting enough to dent vehicles. GSC are a good counter to the bomber strat. Corkscrew Scrapjets feel excellent, able to perform in pretty much every phase. Having a unit of shoota boyz hanging back in a trukk has been the MVP a few games in a row. Hopping out late game to deal with weakened units or nab objectives.

Mechanised orks feels pretty good right now i'm not going to lie.

Bring it down and one of the Battlefield supremacy (all three are good) are my go to for orks. Third secondary depends on the list and the mission but I don't like any of the No Mercy, No Respite and Warpcraft except Abhor the Witch in some particular match-ups. Teleport homers with 5 kommandos is my favorite one among Shadow Operation, but I only pick it if I have kommandos.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
I feel like so far for most of my games (at least if you're using a buggy list) that Engage on All Fronts and Linebreaker are my two mains, and then I decide on the final one based on the mission, since stuff like Scorched Earth or other ones are usually more feasible than the other kill more or action based secondaries.

You can have Engage on all Fronts and Linebreaker at the same time though?

Indeed he can´t. Those are the same category.

One thing that is premuim now imho is cheap deeping infantry and characters who can do Scramblers or Homer. We are well positioned there with Kommandos and Trukks bearing Boyz + Runtherds, Zagstrukk and Snikrot. In a pinch I´d say most of my 2nds are: Engage or Linebreaker and Scrambler or Homer + kill depending on opponent. Banners can be a choice vs more gunline builds like AM.

Next level is building to counter opponents Secondaries, and I don´t mean kill points since that distorts the army build. Despite claims to the contrary it´s not easy to create a viable list that also does not give up close to 10 points on either characters, monsters or vehicles. Rather how to react on their attepts at moving to score. Screening, strats, etc.

How to measure the distance between Mek gunz? The rulez are:


“ This unit contains 1 Mek Gun and 6 grot krew, one manning the weapon and five standing alongside it. ”

And

“ Mek Gunz must be placed within 6" of at least one other Mek Gun, and with each grot krew within 1" of their Mek Gun. ”

Option A = 6” between grots or gunz = Gun is 2” wide + 1” on each side + almost 1” grot base = axis distance is aprox. 12”

Option B = 6” between Gunz itself, Grots are not considered. Gunz are 2” wide = axis distance between Gunz = 8”

RAW is B, isn' t it?

Guns are part of model for all purposes except you can't draw los from grot(to grot is fine). That's why you can't really play without at least　putting base to them to cover space crew would take

Scactha wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
I feel like so far for most of my games (at least if you're using a buggy list) that Engage on All Fronts and Linebreaker are my two mains, and then I decide on the final one based on the mission, since stuff like Scorched Earth or other ones are usually more feasible than the other kill more or action based secondaries.

You can have Engage on all Fronts and Linebreaker at the same time though?

Indeed he can´t. Those are the same category.

One thing that is premuim now imho is cheap deeping infantry and characters who can do Scramblers or Homer. We are well positioned there with Kommandos and Trukks bearing Boyz + Runtherds, Zagstrukk and Snikrot. In a pinch I´d say most of my 2nds are: Engage or Linebreaker and Scrambler or Homer + kill depending on opponent. Banners can be a choice vs more gunline builds like AM.

Next level is building to counter opponents Secondaries, and I don´t mean kill points since that distorts the army build. Despite claims to the contrary it´s not easy to create a viable list that also does not give up close to 10 points on either characters, monsters or vehicles. Rather how to react on their attepts at moving to score. Screening, strats, etc.

Characters can't do scramblers, unfortunately.

tneva82 wrote:
Guns are part of model for all purposes except you can't draw los from grot(to grot is fine). That's why you can't really play without at least　putting base to them to cover space crew would take

? The question is, from where to where are you measuring the distance between during deployment?

So, looks like Nob Bikers might not be ideal, but I love the modelling opportunity. That being said, how are folks modelling paired Killsaws on them? Or on normal Nobz for that matter?

I figured maybe using the saw parts on the big choppas attached to the PK hands maybe? Anyone else have some clever solutions?

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
So, looks like Nob Bikers might not be ideal, but I love the modelling opportunity. That being said, how are folks modelling paired Killsaws on them? Or on normal Nobz for that matter?

I figured maybe using the saw parts on the big choppas attached to the PK hands maybe? Anyone else have some clever solutions?

i just use a single double saw hand per nob from the meganob box for double saws on bikes. also have chopped off the pointy part of the power stabba and replaced it with chainsword and/or chainaxe bits.

They need to be able to drive. Look at the killsaw on fw warboss. That is good solution

Put their face to the handles so theyre driving with their mouth lol

You could maybe model like a saw on their driving arm if you wanna do double saw? Sort of an attachment like a Harlequin Kiss?

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
So, looks like Nob Bikers might not be ideal, but I love the modelling opportunity. That being said, how are folks modelling paired Killsaws on them? Or on normal Nobz for that matter?

I figured maybe using the saw parts on the big choppas attached to the PK hands maybe? Anyone else have some clever solutions?

Don't hack up BC, you are going to regret it.

There is one official killsaw in the nobz box, besides that you could use chain-choppas from boyz boxes in pairs. Kans and Dreads also tend to have extra saw bits. Besides that, there plenty of non-ork models with saw-like bits that you might get from other people.

As for being able to drive - I have nob bikers holding big choppas in both hands. Do you really think an ork wouldn't just wedge the handle and swing at things while driving in a straight line?

 Jidmah wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
I feel like so far for most of my games (at least if you're using a buggy list) that Engage on All Fronts and Linebreaker are my two mains, and then I decide on the final one based on the mission, since stuff like Scorched Earth or other ones are usually more feasible than the other kill more or action based secondaries.

You can have Engage on all Fronts and Linebreaker at the same time though?

Yeah, I brainfarted and thought they were separate ones for some reason. I meant Engage on All Fronts and Repair Teleport Homer. With Kommandos properly placed behind LoS blocking terrain, it's one of the few reliable ways of taking advantage of the majority of enemy units being forced to fight for the middle, and a 5 man squad is easy to hide, or at the very least tuck into their corner of the table and draw firepower from your guys contesting the middle.

tulun wrote:

Spoiler:

Scactha wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
I feel like so far for most of my games (at least if you're using a buggy list) that Engage on All Fronts and Linebreaker are my two mains, and then I decide on the final one based on the mission, since stuff like Scorched Earth or other ones are usually more feasible than the other kill more or action based secondaries.

You can have Engage on all Fronts and Linebreaker at the same time though?

Indeed he can´t. Those are the same category.

One thing that is premuim now imho is cheap deeping infantry and characters who can do Scramblers or Homer. We are well positioned there with Kommandos and Trukks bearing Boyz + Runtherds, Zagstrukk and Snikrot. In a pinch I´d say most of my 2nds are: Engage or Linebreaker and Scrambler or Homer + kill depending on opponent. Banners can be a choice vs more gunline builds like AM.

Next level is building to counter opponents Secondaries, and I don´t mean kill points since that distorts the army build. Despite claims to the contrary it´s not easy to create a viable list that also does not give up close to 10 points on either characters, monsters or vehicles. Rather how to react on their attepts at moving to score. Screening, strats, etc.

Characters can't do scramblers, unfortunately.

I know. It was supposed to be a conditional can, but came out worse than intended. My bad.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Put their face to the handles so theyre driving with their mouth lol

This made me laugh way to hard.^^

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
So, looks like Nob Bikers might not be ideal, but I love the modelling opportunity. That being said, how are folks modelling paired Killsaws on them? Or on normal Nobz for that matter?

I figured maybe using the saw parts on the big choppas attached to the PK hands maybe? Anyone else have some clever solutions?

Back when i did my 9 Nobbikers i made 3 nobs with double saw and all others with choppa + big choppa. I combined warbikers with 2 boxes nobs for this, so i had plenty leftover biz + my other ork stuff.
I mixed and went for different options. One nob had his 2 saws mounted at his bike (left and right side to saw off enemy legs^^), another had 1 saw hand and another attached and the third had 2 saw hands and was driving freehand.
My choppa dudes had some of them between their teeth or were riding freehand as well.
I bought some modeling chains (about the sice of a small necklace) and wrapped it around arms + the bikes handles, so they had some kind of "controll" over their bikes.
Because the handles in the box have hands attached i used leftover choppers a lot to build handles for my bikes without hands that could get wrapped some chains around them.
Some bikers had 1 (big) choppa attached to the bike, so there are plenty options to build them.

There is just one thing that sucks so hard: I sold them almost a year ago because i thought i`d never play them again, and now i need to go for warbikes or some conversions again. Oh boy.

 Grotrebel wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
So, looks like Nob Bikers might not be ideal, but I love the modelling opportunity. That being said, how are folks modelling paired Killsaws on them? Or on normal Nobz for that matter?

I figured maybe using the saw parts on the big choppas attached to the PK hands maybe? Anyone else have some clever solutions?

Back when i did my 9 Nobbikers i made 3 nobs with double saw and all others with choppa + big choppa. I combined warbikers with 2 boxes nobs for this, so i had plenty leftover biz + my other ork stuff.
I mixed and went for different options. One nob had his 2 saws mounted at his bike (left and right side to saw off enemy legs^^), another had 1 saw hand and another attached and the third had 2 saw hands and was driving freehand.
My choppa dudes had some of them between their teeth or were riding freehand as well.
I bought some modeling chains (about the sice of a small necklace) and wrapped it around arms + the bikes handles, so they had some kind of "controll" over their bikes.
Because the handles in the box have hands attached i used leftover choppers a lot to build handles for my bikes without hands that could get wrapped some chains around them.
Some bikers had 1 (big) choppa attached to the bike, so there are plenty options to build them.

There is just one thing that sucks so hard: I sold them almost a year ago because i thought i`d never play them again, and now i need to go for warbikes or some conversions again. Oh boy.

Makes sense to me for bikers to have their close combat weapons actually mounted on the front of the bikes - and if attached via a peg on the weapon into a hole on the bike, that makes weapon swaps easy every time GW change the rules on us
Another option is forearm-mounted close combat weapons - not sure how killsaws would look though...

Paint them as freebooters and use a chain leg!

Bclion wrote:
Paint them as freebooters and use a chain leg!

Exalted

Another thing that came to my mind was attaching the saw to the bike, just like the buzz saws on the SJD or the squig buggy.

 Tomsug wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Guns are part of model for all purposes except you can't draw los from grot(to grot is fine). That's why you can't really play without at least　putting base to them to cover space crew would take

? The question is, from where to where are you measuring the distance between during deployment?

Grots count for part of model for all purposes except drawing LOS FROM gun.

There's no exception to measuring for deployment like there is measuring from the unit in shooting.

Ergo as grots are part of the model and you measure from any part of the model...You measure from gun or grot depending which is outermost part of the measure.

So I did answer. Grots are part of the model for all purposes. Only time you don't measure from grots same as gun itself is when shooting at the enemy and you can't use grot for LOS. But that's because there's specific rule against it. No such rule for measuring for deployment measuring.

tneva82 wrote:

 Tomsug wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Guns are part of model for all purposes except you can't draw los from grot(to grot is fine). That's why you can't really play without at least　putting base to them to cover space crew would take

? The question is, from where to where are you measuring the distance between during deployment?

Grots count for part of model for all purposes except drawing LOS FROM gun.

There's no exception to measuring for deployment like there is measuring from the unit in shooting.

Ergo as grots are part of the model and you measure from any part of the model...You measure from gun or grot depending which is outermost part of the measure.

So I did answer. Grots are part of the model for all purposes. Only time you don't measure from grots same as gun itself is when shooting at the enemy and you can't use grot for LOS. But that's because there's specific rule against it. No such rule for measuring for deployment measuring.

So it' s Option A! Because a lot of people is sticked to Index version of the rules and play it from Gun! Also me, I played it gun-gun. But the more I look at it, the more I agree, that it could be grot to grot, because as you said:

“ Grot Krew: Each Mek Gun and its grot krew are treated as a single model for all rules purposes. The krew must remain within 1" of their Mek Gun and cannot be targeted or attacked separately. The range and visibility of all attacks made by a Mek Gun are measured from the Mek Gun, not the krew.”

So Mek Gun incl 5 grots around are one model compound from more physicaly independent pieces of plastic that can move and change the footprint of the model during the game.

For nob bikes with dual killsaws I'd just model them with one and tell the opponent every killsaw counts as a pair. I can't stand models that make no sense, orks or otherwise

Does anyone play battlewagons full of boyz anymore? They were my go to in 5th and 6th, and even in 7th and 8th had some teeth if you could get them out in the right spot.

So with range not really being to far anymore I’m thinking about the tankbustas using dual rocket pistols with more dakka. Exploding on 5&6s and two shots per tankbustas they might have some teeth now. You could either start In transport and move up for second round or maybe even disembark first turn do your move for total eight inches and find a target within 12 to unload on.

You can just take 1 pistol per 5 Tankbustas though.
Also it has S7 instead S8, damage D3 instead 3 and if you really get in range for the pistol you might as well use the granade strategem and throw up to 10 tankbusta bombs.

Bclion wrote:
So with range not really being to far anymore I’m thinking about the tankbustas using dual rocket pistols with more dakka. Exploding on 5&6s and two shots per tankbustas they might have some teeth now. You could either start In transport and move up for second round or maybe even disembark first turn do your move for total eight inches and find a target within 12 to unload on.

I feel like you still miss out on a lot by taking pistols since the extra shot doesn't really make up for the fact that even with a smaller board range that going from 24" to 12" is a huge difference. It means screening works a lot more against you, and since tankbustas are basically either outflanked or tellyported in the majority of games, being limited to only what is in 12" in front of you makes it very hard for you get your ideal target. Even in a transport its not ideal since in many cases you will be losing out on another shot of a regular rokkit because your pistols aren't quiiite in range. Furthermore, S8 is in one of the biggest sweet spots of strength in the game. You wound most transports on 3's with that, 2's on the multi-tude of T4 multi-wound targets that you may have to shoot at some point, and more importantly that flat 3 damage of regular rokkits are a big selling point for TB, so to take that away for S7 AND D3 damage, means that the extra shot you get is, IMO, not worth it. You don't get enough volume of fire to make it worth swapping IMO.

If the pistols were still flat3 damage i could see an argument for them.
But the D3D coupled with the lower strength and range makes them significantly weaker, the only upside being pistols so they can fire in combat....uh...like thats ever gonna happen lol.

It's really a weird attempt for GW to fashion rules for the Tankbusta sculpts that have them, if they ever do make a plastic kit that has them as an actual feasible option (i.e., the whole unit can equip it and not just 1 in 5 guys), they'd have to be flat 2 or 3 damage like Vineheart01 says to consider, or at least 18" range to make it more interesting to have a larger volley of slightly weaker and shorter range rokkits versus a smaller amount of quality shots.

 Tomsug wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Tomsug wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Guns are part of model for all purposes except you can't draw los from grot(to grot is fine). That's why you can't really play without at least　putting base to them to cover space crew would take

? The question is, from where to where are you measuring the distance between during deployment?

Grots count for part of model for all purposes except drawing LOS FROM gun.

There's no exception to measuring for deployment like there is measuring from the unit in shooting.

Ergo as grots are part of the model and you measure from any part of the model...You measure from gun or grot depending which is outermost part of the measure.

So I did answer. Grots are part of the model for all purposes. Only time you don't measure from grots same as gun itself is when shooting at the enemy and you can't use grot for LOS. But that's because there's specific rule against it. No such rule for measuring for deployment measuring.

So it' s Option A! Because a lot of people is sticked to Index version of the rules and play it from Gun! Also me, I played it gun-gun. But the more I look at it, the more I agree, that it could be grot to grot, because as you said:

“ Grot Krew: Each Mek Gun and its grot krew are treated as a single model for all rules purposes. The krew must remain within 1" of their Mek Gun and cannot be targeted or attacked separately. The range and visibility of all attacks made by a Mek Gun are measured from the Mek Gun, not the krew.”

So Mek Gun incl 5 grots around are one model compound from more physicaly independent pieces of plastic that can move and change the footprint of the model during the game.

Fun fact, because the Grot counts as a Mek Gun for all rule purposes, the grots themselves can move out of cohesion and away from the gun, because they are a "Mek Gun:" for all rules purposes, self satisfying that rule clause.

Heafstaag wrote:
Does anyone play battlewagons full of boyz anymore? They were my go to in 5th and 6th, and even in 7th and 8th had some teeth if you could get them out in the right spot.

I'm using wagons and boys with reasonable success.

Heafstaag wrote:
Does anyone play battlewagons full of boyz anymore? They were my go to in 5th and 6th, and even in 7th and 8th had some teeth if you could get them out in the right spot.

Transports have a good spot as objective grabbers. First the enemy has to get rid of the vehicle and then the passengers. Meanwhile you get Primary VP. I think of them as tarpits for the opponent.

Heafstaag wrote:
Does anyone play battlewagons full of boyz anymore? They were my go to in 5th and 6th, and even in 7th and 8th had some teeth if you could get them out in the right spot.

They're a staple in my lists since 5th, well also 3rd but you could only bring a single wagon back then. Of course I've played multiple alternatives but I really love wagon boyz. In 9th they are pretty solid; I use these combinations: 10 Boyz + 5 Meganobz, 2x10 Boyz, 19 Boyz + Warboss, 18 Boyz + Warboss + Big Mek with KFF/Weirdboy. Since we want to save CPs and vehicles love kustom jobs I don't bring more than 2 wagons at most, saving the 3rd HS to a shooty unit like a Morkanaut or Mek Gunz. Most of the times I play a single wagon though, with Warboss, second HQ and 18 Boyz.

I had 2 more games this weekend, Orks won both of them which was nice

Game 1 was 1500 points, both of us went for a completely different list to our usual - I ran 3 units of 5 bikers and a unit of 5 biker nobs, and my opponent ran a primaris horde of ultramarines. it was very odd being outnumbered.

My list, roughly, was:



I was running evil suns as, between the wartrike and the klan trait, the bikes could move insanely fast and still shoot & charge with impunity.

I got first turn, so my bikes essentially rammed down their throats, leaving an 18" bubble around his CC unit to stay out of charge range. I forgot the blast rule for smashas turn 1 so they only did sporadic damage. shokkjumps both appeared in his deployment, so linebreaker for me, and I managed to effectively hold his army back from the objectives with my bikers and blast them with my smasha guns. It worked a treat, I think I won 26-96 in the end. I held loads of objectives and got my secondaries (linebreaker, investigate sites, slay the warlord) so it was a massive win.

Shokkjumps with whirlygigs and evil suns are awesome - automatically appear anywhere with no to-hit penalty for advancing & shooting the assault weaponry.

Evil suns on bikers with other gubbinz is also amazing. The wartrike with evil suns, ramming speed and squighide tyres can move 17"+7"(once per battle,D6+1otherwise)+3D6"+1". Average of 35.5" charge, maximum of 43"!!!!!! Plus he minces primaris quite well, which is excellent! The bikes themselves were also crazy fast, effectively 16+D6" advancing and not caring if they are just shooting, and not caring about charging at they are with the wartrike, they just charge anyway!

It was a thoroughly fun army to use, I definitely recommend evil suns bikers + wartrike!

Second game was 1000 points. Can't remember the exact list I had but it as 3 trukks; 2 with 3 meganobs, 1 with 8 flashgits, a klawboss and mad dok, and a weirdboy with 10 grots. huh. that was the exact list. oh well!
It went well - faced a smaller primaris horde. Trukks got mostly destroyed early, the meganobs fell to AP-1 bolters, but the flashgits - oh, the flashgits! they sat in their trukk, didn't move all game, and mowed down every squad they pointed at to 1-2 models left (from 10). They popped gun crazy showoffs once, when the closest unit was a single dude with 1 wound left - who, surprisingly, died. The Warboss killed marines, then was killed by a librarian, who he then killed by fighting before dying, who then killed my last meganobs by fighting before dying, so everyone died but grotsnik, who ended up stood facing a single primaris, all that was left. The primaris charged, and tried really hard - we stuck a gold star to his mangled corpse once grotsnik was done with him. I had 2 fee turns to play out after that, and won by a fair margin.

So, to summarise:

Flashgits in a trukk - awesome!
speed freeks with evil suns trait - awesome!
meganobs - less awesome. AP-2 just made them expensive meh. might as well save the points and bring lots of nobs with a KFF mek.
Nob Bikers - Aright? I had a sub-par loadout, I'll be packing killsaws on them for my next game... 3 twin-killsaws, and 2 twin-choppas to take the inevitable casualties.

 some bloke wrote:

Spoiler:

Outrider detachment
deffkilla wartrike, supa cybork, might is right, squighide tyres

5 nob bikers; 1 PK, 2 big choppas, 2 slugga-choppas
5 kommandos, PK nob

5 bikers, slugga/choppa nob
5 bikers, slugga/choppa nob
5 bikers, slugga/choppa nob
2 shokkjump dragstas, gyroscopic whirlygigs
5 stormboys, kombi-rokkit nob
deffkopta, twin rokkits

5 smasha guns

Wazbom Blastajet

I was running evil suns as, between the wartrike and the klan trait, the bikes could move insanely fast and still shoot & charge with impunity.

I got first turn, so my bikes essentially rammed down their throats, leaving an 18" bubble around his CC unit to stay out of charge range. I forgot the blast rule for smashas turn 1 so they only did sporadic damage. shokkjumps both appeared in his deployment, so linebreaker for me, and I managed to effectively hold his army back from the objectives with my bikers and blast them with my smasha guns. It worked a treat, I think I won 26-96 in the end. I held loads of objectives and got my secondaries (linebreaker, investigate sites, slay the warlord) so it was a massive win.

Love this. The list utlizes Evil Suns speed to corral the opponent and capture the objectives whilst taking a middle road approach to the fighting part (because that isn´t the most important thing any more). And you won by a crushing margin. This is exactly why I love 9th. Clever strategy on the board should be rewarded over list buidling. Well done

FB said this was 2nd on some GT. Any confirm?

On 40kstats, which apparently confirms this stuff.

If you saw the first place list, you can see why he lost. He basically had no good answers to that list, including a 430 point flyer with almost no way to to seriously interact with it. I bet it was a bloodbath.

I was about to ask how he has kommandos without a powerklaw, until I realised he just isn't taking the boss nob. That seems unwise to me, since you're not only getting some S10 attacks for those points, but an extra attack, wound and point of leadership. That said, I'm not coming second in tournaments.

I don't think that those kommandos are ever going to do any fighting, so spending less points is probably the better option, especially since two kommandoz cost less than one PK nob.

It depends on their role. Tipycally the cheapest squad with no upgrades is perfect for Homer/Linebreaker, etc since you just need it to be alive and hidden in the enemy zone, never in combat.

Lists that rely heavily on deepstriking boyz and/or meganobz can definitely try fielding large squads of kommandos with PKs. Goffs for the extra attack, Evil Sunz for almost guaranteed charges, or Deathskullz for making them deepstriking trukk boyz.

I've always played them bare bones in min squads in 9th edition though since I prefer lists with tons of vehicles instead of massed footsloggers.

My Personal guess would be that the Kommandos joined the meganobs in the trukks to prevent losses from destroyed Transports...

I use Kommandos bare bones as well. Just throw them somewhere mid to late game where they can steal some VPs and hope they don't get shot to bits before I get my money's worth from them.

 Jidmah wrote:
I don't think that those kommandos are ever going to do any fighting, so spending less points is probably the better option, especially since two kommandoz cost less than one PK nob.

Yeah, by the time kommandos get into combat, they're usually half dead from either shooting or about to be wiped out by the unit that's charged them that turn. You usually have them doing actions like repair teleporters or helping get engage on all fronts/linebreaker, so there's little reason to give them CC gear.

Bossdoc wrote:
My Personal guess would be that the Kommandos joined the meganobs in the trukks to prevent losses from destroyed Transports...

That's a god spot, they are the cheapest way to get 5 models into a trukk with the MANs. Once the MANs are out of the trukk, the kommandos can try to hide away and perform secondary objectives. You could also chuck the kommandos out of the trukk halfway across the board to perform investigate sites.

 some bloke wrote:

Bossdoc wrote:
My Personal guess would be that the Kommandos joined the meganobs in the trukks to prevent losses from destroyed Transports...

That's a god spot, they are the cheapest way to get 5 models into a trukk with the MANs. Once the MANs are out of the trukk, the kommandos can try to hide away and perform secondary objectives. You could also chuck the kommandos out of the trukk halfway across the board to perform investigate sites.

Absolutely. It's our cheapest obsec (under DS) squad we can get. But I don't think taking the nob is wrong -- it's just if you want them to have the extra punch utility. Kommando Nob with DS re-rolls can probably do some damage to a weakened unit.

Just have a plan, or pay for utility, or scrimp.

Hey guys, just have a question for someone who's good at mathhammer. I play mech style orks, buggies, trukks with boys and some wagons. With defkilla trike. Evil sunz


So my question, I've been looking for some maths for Boomer gunwagon seem plenty of chatter about it but cant see anyone mentioning running a weird boy with "Visions in the smoke" psychic power. In my mind 4d6 shot assuming I'm moving under half, with More dakka and chapter master re rolls from Visions should be strong.

But is it worth the points investment? And is it as strong as I'm thinking?

Apologies if this has been discussed somwhere I just couldn't see it.

Orkboy27 wrote:

So my question, I've been looking for some maths for Boomer gunwagon seem plenty of chatter about it but cant see anyone mentioning running a weird boy with "Visions in the smoke" psychic power. In my mind 4d6 shot assuming I'm moving under half, with More dakka and chapter master re rolls from Visions should be strong.

It is, in a vacuum. Unfortunately weirdboyz aren't particularly effective if they don't gain some modifiers for their cast rolls which is hard to get for vehicles based lists. I think the best buffs for Da Boomer are the two re-rolls granted by the Deathskullz trait and the +1 to hit granted by the Freeboota one if it's triggered, both free and the first one is always in play.

I never found Visions in the Smoke particularly appealing but if you really want an Evil Sunz vehicle based army and manage to give the weirdboy a +2 or better modifier it could work. The Deathskullz psychic power is much more powerful though, a bonus to the AP (that works for ALL your units that fire and/or fight against the same target) and the -1 to hit for the enemy targeted unit plus the two re-rolls that all Deathskullz units get are superior than getting 3ish additional hits thanks to those re-rolls. Also in need of modifiers for the cast roll of course, even more than Visions since it's a WC7.

Thanks for your feedback. Couple things I should have mentioned I tend to have 10 boys in my gunwagon, to screen if needed, double up objectives ect. So I would be getting a +1 for a while gunwagon hangs back while everything else pushes forward so Gunwagon tends to stay around a while due to other more immediate threats. Visions is WC6 too so casting on a 5 for the most part.

But yeah thanks I'll certainly try some games as deathskulls as they work well enough for my list too.

Much appreciated

So, I've found in my last 2 games with them that flashgitz have been my MVP's. I've made a list to aim for with them, which I feel would do pretty well:



So essentially you have 3 battlewagons which output insane amounts of dakka, and 2 of them have a 5++. It's almost guaranteed to eliminate any 2 wound units, has the firepower for dealing with hordes, and has enough 2 damage wounds-on-5's output to deal with bigger opponents as well.

90 S6 AP-2 D2 shots a turn
3D6 S8 AP-2 D2 shots a turn
half a chance for one of the units to shoot again each turn
Freebootas being a modifier it will pass into units inside a transport, if I'm reading it right (modifiers do and freebootas is +1 to hit so flashgits in a freebootas wagon get +1 to hit) so aim to kill something with the wagons and then you have 3 units of flashgitz firing like primaris marines.

I just have to build another 22 flashgits now...

 some bloke wrote:
So, I've found in my last 2 games with them that flashgitz have been my MVP's. I've made a list to aim for with them, which I feel would do pretty well:

Spoiler:

Spearhead detachment
KFF Mek

9 flashgitz, kaptin, ammo runt
9 flashgitz, kaptin, ammo runt
9 flashgitz, kaptin, ammo runt
Battlewagon, killkannon, kustom job - forktress
Battlewagon, killkannon
Battlewagon, killkannon

1500 points

So essentially you have 3 battlewagons which output insane amounts of dakka, and 2 of them have a 5++. It's almost guaranteed to eliminate any 2 wound units, has the firepower for dealing with hordes, and has enough 2 damage wounds-on-5's output to deal with bigger opponents as well.

90 S6 AP-2 D2 shots a turn
3D6 S8 AP-2 D2 shots a turn
half a chance for one of the units to shoot again each turn
Freebootas being a modifier it will pass into units inside a transport, if I'm reading it right (modifiers do and freebootas is +1 to hit so flashgits in a freebootas wagon get +1 to hit) so aim to kill something with the wagons and then you have 3 units of flashgitz firing like primaris marines.

I just have to build another 22 flashgits now...

Trying to imagine the rules interaction on this one. So you fire the wagons one after another, lets say the first wagon (wagon A) manages to wipe out a unit of 2 gun drones. In that current moment the occupants of wagon A don't get the buff, because the wagon does not get the buff for killing something himself. Wagon B and C get it, so their occupants get it.

If during the shooting frenzy after wagon B and C don't kill anything, only their occupants do, then the occupants of Wagon A won't get the buff. If the wonky rules writing of GW allows any of the units inside to use their rules as they should that is.

cody.d. wrote:

 some bloke wrote:
So, I've found in my last 2 games with them that flashgitz have been my MVP's. I've made a list to aim for with them, which I feel would do pretty well:

Spoiler:

Spearhead detachment
KFF Mek

9 flashgitz, kaptin, ammo runt
9 flashgitz, kaptin, ammo runt
9 flashgitz, kaptin, ammo runt
Battlewagon, killkannon, kustom job - forktress
Battlewagon, killkannon
Battlewagon, killkannon

1500 points

So essentially you have 3 battlewagons which output insane amounts of dakka, and 2 of them have a 5++. It's almost guaranteed to eliminate any 2 wound units, has the firepower for dealing with hordes, and has enough 2 damage wounds-on-5's output to deal with bigger opponents as well.

90 S6 AP-2 D2 shots a turn
3D6 S8 AP-2 D2 shots a turn
half a chance for one of the units to shoot again each turn
Freebootas being a modifier it will pass into units inside a transport, if I'm reading it right (modifiers do and freebootas is +1 to hit so flashgits in a freebootas wagon get +1 to hit) so aim to kill something with the wagons and then you have 3 units of flashgitz firing like primaris marines.

I just have to build another 22 flashgits now...

Trying to imagine the rules interaction on this one. So you fire the wagons one after another, lets say the first wagon (wagon A) manages to wipe out a unit of 2 gun drones. In that current moment the occupants of wagon A don't get the buff, because the wagon does not get the buff for killing something himself. Wagon B and C get it, so their occupants get it.

If during the shooting frenzy after wagon B and C don't kill anything, only their occupants do, then the occupants of Wagon A won't get the buff. If the wonky rules writing of GW allows any of the units inside to use their rules as they should that is.

I believe that if any wagon succeeds in killing a unit, assuming hey are within range of each other, all of the wagons (including itself) will benefit (though the wagon will not be able to fire again, it is still benefiting) and so all of the flashgitz inside will also benefit.

If the flashgits kill a unit then they cannot give out an aura as they are not on the board, so no-one can be within 24" of them - alas, not even themselves if they roll a 6 for gun crazy showoffs, I believe, unless a rule specifically states that a unit is always classed as being within range of itself somewhere in the Auras section.

as such it's imperative to use the killkannons first to try and delete a unit! If that's not possible, you'd have to fire one unit of gits and then a killkannon to try and finish the unit off and trigger the aura for everyone.

I'm really struggling to work out what this army would struggle to delete. 90 shots is 45 hits, so 15 wounds on T7+, assume a 3+ save dropped to 5+, or a 5++, so 10 wounds go through = 20 wounds lost. plus killkannons, kaptins, ammo runt rerolls, dakkadakkadakka, freeboota kulture and gun crazy showoffs. The maths is difficult here... but I feel that this volume of damage output could be quite overwhelming. AP-2 is the perfect amount with mass firepower, as invulns tend to be 4++ at best and 5++ in general, so anything more than AP-2 will be wasted on invulns, and volume of fire will get through the invulns, and damage 2 will demolish anything non-horde.

Then you have to remember that they are Nobs in close combat so can actually clear off what's left of a unit in CC quite easily, and be repositioned ready to not move next turn.

I'm very excited to start making me some more flashgitz!

You'd need something better than 3 Killkannons to get the Freeboota's bonus. You'll hardly kill anything with those Killkannons, which is, kind of ironic... ^^

Sadly not Somebloke. The Freebootaz trait has the word other in it, meaning the unit itself can never benefit if it gets to fire twice, like flashgitz using guncrazy showoffs and Naughts when you could fire twice using Kustom Ammo.

"Add 1 to hit rolls for attacks made by models with this KULTUR if any other friendly unit with this KULTUR within 24" has destroyed an enemy unit this phase."

Also it has to be a unit on the table to trigger it eh.

Even if your flash gits kill something they don’t trigger the trait if they are in the wagon. They aren’t within 24” of any unit.

Yeah, Freeboota +1 affects embarked passengers due to Open Topped, but they cant trigger it as theyre not on the board.
Technically theyre not benefiting from freeboota aura is why it works, the freeboota wagon is just passing it on because its a modifier.

This is why Mek Gunz or planes are so common in freeboota lists.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Yeah, Freeboota +1 affects embarked passengers due to Open Topped, but they cant trigger it as theyre not on the board.
Technically theyre not benefiting from freeboota aura is why it works, the freeboota wagon is just passing it on because its a modifier.

This is why Mek Gunz or planes are so common in freeboota lists.

That and they're disgustingly cheap and killy. A handful of smasha guns are almost certain to kill something if they have LOS.

But yeah, it's tempting to try and work around a list like that. Kill something, pass the buff onto the transports which hand the buff onto the freebootaz inside. Adds some speed and protection to the orks inside. And you can always loot it when they get popped.

Still wish GW would fix the opened topped rules. Make the unit an extension of the transport perhaps? Or treat the unit as existing in the same physical space as the transport but be untargetable to friendly or enemy weapons/physic powers/stratagems.

Even though only 3 or so armies make use to the rule it's still pretty important to those factions and how they interact with the game. (Still want the ability to disembark after moving)

Open top rule now is pretty stupid.

I think out of all iterations of the open topped rule, the one in 8th still the best. I think in 9th they wanted it to work the same, but they just failed hard on writing the rules.

When you try to write a water-tight rule for open topped yourself, it tends to get wordy really quick.

Thats how i view it, they tried to quickly word how it worked in 8th and accidentally completely screwed it over. And far as i know orks are the only ones that technically suffer from this, as Harlies/DE dont have any innate rules that are lost. Their rules are stratagems (which didnt work) melee based or mention transports anyway so it still works.

Nobody in my area has questioned me when i use innate rules in opentopped still. Few times i mentioned it they respond with "thats fething stupid i dont believe that"

 Vineheart01 wrote:
And far as i know orks are the only ones that technically suffer from this, as Harlies/DE dont have any innate rules that are lost.

DE poison weapons are one, technically when fired from a vehicle they don't have the poison ability and thus no strength value, which there is no way to handle such a weapon in the rules.

I mean I've not found anyone who isnt just ruling it like 8th, most people see how wrong the 9th edition rules on this are.

GT breakdown.

https://www.goonhammer.com/tournament-report-labor-day-gt/

 Nym wrote:
You'd need something better than 3 Killkannons to get the Freeboota's bonus. You'll hardly kill anything with those Killkannons, which is, kind of ironic... ^^

Alas, I don't have the points in there for much else. If I drop the 3 killkannons that gives me points for one mek gun - that'll never do as much damage as 3 killkannons!

Average of 10.5 shots nets us what, 3 hits? maybe 4 with dakkadakkadakka? eeesh... killkannons really do suck. Maybe it'd be worth adding the boomer on one of them - I know it's not a gunwagon but I need the open topped for the gitz.

Do kommandoes get to pay 10 pts for a nob upgrade?

 koooaei wrote:
Do kommandoes get to pay 10 pts for a nob upgrade?

Technically they do, because their nob has to have a PK.

 koooaei wrote:
Do kommandoes get to pay 10 pts for a nob upgrade?

Like Jidmah said, it's the mandatory weapon cost since the Ork codex version, in contrast to the Index, gives no options at all for Kommandos outside of 1 kommando getting taking a tankbusta bomb for ever 5 guys in the unit, with the Kommando Nob having to take the PK because the resin kit only has him with that option.

Kinda dumb IMO, hopefully whatever stuff they're planning for Orks in the next two years replaces the resin kits, if only to give us some more semblance of options.

 Grimskul wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Do kommandoes get to pay 10 pts for a nob upgrade?

Like Jidmah said, it's the mandatory weapon cost since the Ork codex version, in contrast to the Index, gives no options at all for Kommandos outside of 1 kommando getting taking a tankbusta bomb for ever 5 guys in the unit, with the Kommando Nob having to take the PK because the resin kit only has him with that option.

Kinda dumb IMO, hopefully whatever stuff they're planning for Orks in the next two years replaces the resin kits, if only to give us some more semblance of options.

What was extra dumb is that Forgeworld was actually selling a Kommando upgrade kit with a big choppa -- so you literally had a different model set with Big Choppas being sold by them.

Why would a Kommando always take a big clunky klaw? GW logic.

It is possible to run 5-15 kommandos with no nob though. If you want the nob then yes, it also comes with the mandatory 10pts power klaw.

tulun wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Do kommandoes get to pay 10 pts for a nob upgrade?

Like Jidmah said, it's the mandatory weapon cost since the Ork codex version, in contrast to the Index, gives no options at all for Kommandos outside of 1 kommando getting taking a tankbusta bomb for ever 5 guys in the unit, with the Kommando Nob having to take the PK because the resin kit only has him with that option.

Kinda dumb IMO, hopefully whatever stuff they're planning for Orks in the next two years replaces the resin kits, if only to give us some more semblance of options.

What was extra dumb is that Forgeworld was actually selling a Kommando upgrade kit with a big choppa -- so you literally had a different model set with Big Choppas being sold by them.

Why would a Kommando always take a big clunky klaw? GW logic.

Unfortunately, it rarely seems FW options ever play a role in what Xenos armies have available rules-wise. Especially since so much of the FW stuff has been phased out in favour of HH instead of 40k, it's a surprise that the WB on Warbike is even on the store considering they wrote him out of the Munitorum Field Manual, since they don't even bother renaming him as Zhadsnark.

There also was an upgrade sprue from GW for adding rokkits to BW and trukks...

 Jidmah wrote:
There also was an upgrade sprue from GW for adding rokkits to BW and trukks...

Were those metal? I vaguely remember them, I don't recall it being part of the deffrolla add-on kit.

Yeah, they were a pair of metal rokkits which would go where the stikkbombs on the turret of the BW and I think there was a bit to replace the big shoota on the trukk.

tulun wrote:
GT breakdown.

https://www.goonhammer.com/tournament-report-labor-day-gt/

I may not be able to run 180 like I did in 5th, but its nice to see boyz hordes placing in 9th

 Grimskul wrote:

tulun wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Do kommandoes get to pay 10 pts for a nob upgrade?

Like Jidmah said, it's the mandatory weapon cost since the Ork codex version, in contrast to the Index, gives no options at all for Kommandos outside of 1 kommando getting taking a tankbusta bomb for ever 5 guys in the unit, with the Kommando Nob having to take the PK because the resin kit only has him with that option.

Kinda dumb IMO, hopefully whatever stuff they're planning for Orks in the next two years replaces the resin kits, if only to give us some more semblance of options.

What was extra dumb is that Forgeworld was actually selling a Kommando upgrade kit with a big choppa -- so you literally had a different model set with Big Choppas being sold by them.

Why would a Kommando always take a big clunky klaw? GW logic.

Unfortunately, it rarely seems FW options ever play a role in what Xenos armies have available rules-wise. Especially since so much of the FW stuff has been phased out in favour of HH instead of 40k, it's a surprise that the WB on Warbike is even on the store considering they wrote him out of the Munitorum Field Manual, since they don't even bother renaming him as Zhadsnark.

Also curious that they kept the Nobs on bikes as a unit option. Though I guess they can always consider the sergeant from the bikers kit. (but come on he's just to weedy.)

The nob kit was also made in a way that the nobz fit seamlessly onto the warbikes.

Many of the ork kits have parts which were specifically made to be compatible with other kits, but GW forgot about many of them (for example, the KMB option on kanz)

Moved to the 40K Army Lists.
Can mod please delete?

Codex news --

Apparently, the rest of the 2020 Codexes after Necrons and Space Marines are as follows.

1) Blood Angels
2) Space Wolves
3) Deathwatch
4) Deathguard

Looks like no Orks for the next few months.

Edit: Forgeworld too!

WARBOSS ON BIKE RETURNS!

Definitely didnt forget it for marines as they are marketing the new intercessors as "compatible with current kits"

Still baffles me the buggies werent handled that way.

Also, bikerboss returns? where? i missed that!