asobitaii wrote: Interested in the wraiths + ctan lists, what are people running in them? I am having trouble fitting everything I want under 2k points.
imotekh, orikan, 25 immortals = 615
5 ctan = 875
9 scarab, 9 wraith = 495
total: 1985
If i can squeeze in 2 more HQ choices, I can have outrider and spearhead detachments. Also wouldnt mind some more big guns like DDA or destroyers, maybe cut the 5th ctan.
What would you guys do to finish off the list?
Just use 4 ctans, deceiver, night bringer two trancendent =under 700
Kick out orican take something cheap.
More than 200 points spare for more wraiths.
asobitaii wrote: Interested in the wraiths + ctan lists, what are people running in them? I am having trouble fitting everything I want under 2k points.
imotekh, orikan, 25 immortals = 615
5 ctan = 875
9 scarab, 9 wraith = 495
total: 1985
If i can squeeze in 2 more HQ choices, I can have outrider and spearhead detachments. Also wouldnt mind some more big guns like DDA or destroyers, maybe cut the 5th ctan.
What would you guys do to finish off the list?
I played something similar 2 weeks ago.
1 Overlord
1 Cryptek - Veil
3x 5 TImmortals
Nightbringer
Deciever
10x S/B Lychguard
5x Destroyers
5x Wraiths
3x TCtan
I was playing against Fists. They had two of the floaty tanks that put down a ton of fire, one of the new dreadnaughts thats not a dreadnaught, 3 thunderfire cannons, and a bunch of troops.
Got hammer and anvil so we played long side of the board. He didnt move for the most part the entire game and the entire game I felt I was in trouble. I also went second and rolled a 1 for my deciever move.
The game pretty much broke down to him slowing my wraiths through out the game. I veiled up my lychguard into his not-dreadnaught, 2 thunderfires, and a troop squad. They made their charge and took that side of the table by turn 3. RA made it so by that time they were still at a full 10 models.
I did move up deciever and a Trancendent but put them behind cover. Through out the game the mortal wounds really did start adding up. It feels weak in the beginning but then you just keep doing them over and over.
He used his tanks to chip away at the c'tan through the game, I lost deciever and 2 Trancendents, but when he moved a tank forward to kill one he exposed it to my destroyers. RA rolled double 6s to get them back up to 5, I blew my last command point for Extermination Protocol, and laid down 10 unsaved wounds on it. It promptly exploded doing 6 mortal wounds to his warlord.
Game over.
Overall I think its a pretty strong list to play especially because its so unexpected. If you get turn 1 and roll well for the Deciever move you are going to hurt things with cosmic fire. My lychguard were by far my mvps of the game holding a side of the board without even trying. Feel I got lucky with charge rolls there getting both my lychguard and tek into cc to avoid snipers.I also know for sure I made mistakes but that happens.
I am thinking about changing the list up and taking Obyron and maybe Zahndrekh. Might not but having 2 Veils would be really strong with this list imo.If I did do that I might drop the destroyers for flayed ones and just go ham with the melee.
I love wraiths, but it feels like there are too many hard counters to their schtick out there these days. Smite spam, null zone, death hex, marines just rinsing them with gatling cannons.
I think you need to go hard on wraiths or not at all. The above report is cool and shows how those lists can work, but without first turn you're buggered. And even then, it sounds like you had hot dice.
Still, excited to see people trying different lists and having success, Necron's have been stuck with one/two viable lists for too long.
IanVanCheese wrote: I love wraiths, but it feels like there are too many hard counters to their schtick out there these days. Smite spam, null zone, death hex, marines just rinsing them with gatling cannons.
I think you need to go hard on wraiths or not at all. The above report is cool and shows how those lists can work, but without first turn you're buggered. And even then, it sounds like you had hot dice.
Still, excited to see people trying different lists and having success, Necron's have been stuck with one/two viable lists for too long.
I agree with the wraiths thing but they are still something that makes people worry. They full a nitch either way.
I disagree with not going first turn though. Sure it makes it harder but I still won against again very good codex.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I was thinking Obyron and a Tek with veil.
In theory you could move both of them turn 1 and 2 infantry units. Say 20 flayed ones and 10 lychguard. These guys can all charge.
Then with Deciever you are also moving Deciever and 1-3 other units, likely ctan. These guys cant charge.
Even against tau thats going to be a lot of in your face issues pretty much right away.
Instead of choosing the 3++ for the transcendent ctans you could roll for two abilities. Its a 33% chance that you get the 3++, and you get a second ability.
Instead of choosing the 3++ for the transcendent ctans you could roll for two abilities. Its a 33% chance that you get the 3++, and you get a second ability.
11/36 chance, actually. Since duplicates are not rerolled.
I have found 2-3 wraith units are where you want to be. I use 5 man units and they generally buy me enough time and/or sow enough chaos to get my C'tan in range for the nasty stuff (Cosmic Fire coming from 3-4 C'tan in the midst of your opponent's army is a beautiful thing).
Maelstrom808 wrote: I have found 2-3 wraith units are where you want to be. I use 5 man units and they generally buy me enough time and/or sow enough chaos to get my C'tan in range for the nasty stuff (Cosmic Fire coming from 3-4 C'tan in the midst of your opponent's army is a beautiful thing).
You do know you can not choose the same power for all the C'tan right? You have to divide up all 6 powers once over the first 3 C'Tans before you can start picking duplicates for C'Tans #4 and #5.
Necron Codex Page 113
Before the battle, generate Powers of the C’tan for each C’TAN SHARD unit using the table
below. Roll a D6 to generate their powers randomly (re-rolling any duplicate results). Before the
battle, you can instead choose the powers each of these units have, but if you do this you cannot
choose a power for a second time until all six have been chosen once each (similarly, you cannot
choose a power for a third time until all six have been chosen twice each, and so on).
Well with 5 ctans you have 2 cosmic fire if you want.
Switch via strat in turn 1 and you have 3 cosmic fire.
In turn two you can have 4 times cosmic fire
Exactly, not doubling up on powers only applies when you pick powers at the start of the game. Once the game has started, you can use the Cosmic Powers strat to change a power to whatever you want.
Played a 2k tournament prep game vs. BA last night. Setting up a Nihilakh Wraith fortress in the center / strong side to fire shield for C’tans is a tremendously strong tactic against unprepared foes.
sieGermans wrote: Played a 2k tournament prep game vs. BA last night. Setting up a Nihilakh Wraith fortress in the center / strong side to fire shield for C’tans is a tremendously strong tactic against unprepared foes.
How many C'tans / Wraiths did you played ? Did you played it against gunlines ? I have a game next saturday against a pure TS list for a friendly game, i strongly hesitate to give him a taste of his own medecine (MW) with a C'tan heavy list
sieGermans wrote: Played a 2k tournament prep game vs. BA last night. Setting up a Nihilakh Wraith fortress in the center / strong side to fire shield for C’tans is a tremendously strong tactic against unprepared foes.
How many C'tans / Wraiths did you played ? Did you played it against gunlines ? I have a game next saturday against a pure TS list for a friendly game, i strongly hesitate to give him a taste of his own medecine (MW) with a C'tan heavy list
4 c’tans and 1 6man Wraith Squad.
It was mostly a CC list with a single 5man Aggressor squad as a gunline.
Maelstrom808 wrote: Exactly, not doubling up on powers only applies when you pick powers at the start of the game. Once the game has started, you can use the Cosmic Powers strat to change a power to whatever you want.
Maelstrom808 wrote: Exactly, not doubling up on powers only applies when you pick powers at the start of the game. Once the game has started, you can use the Cosmic Powers strat to change a power to whatever you want.
WHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTTT?
Is this true. Damn need to reread this.
Jep it is true. No restriction at changing powers via strat. So round 2 4 cosmic fire is no problem
Maelstrom808 wrote: Exactly, not doubling up on powers only applies when you pick powers at the start of the game. Once the game has started, you can use the Cosmic Powers strat to change a power to whatever you want.
WHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTTT?
Is this true. Damn need to reread this.
Jep it is true. No restriction at changing powers via strat. So round 2 4 cosmic fire is no problem
Three. Cosmic powers happens at the start of the movement phase, so it can only be used once per turn right? So you have the one you start with, one extra in turn one and a third in turn two.
Maelstrom808 wrote: Exactly, not doubling up on powers only applies when you pick powers at the start of the game. Once the game has started, you can use the Cosmic Powers strat to change a power to whatever you want.
WHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTTT?
Is this true. Damn need to reread this.
Jep it is true. No restriction at changing powers via strat. So round 2 4 cosmic fire is no problem
Three. Cosmic powers happens at the start of the movement phase, so it can only be used once per turn right? So you have the one you start with, one extra in turn one and a third in turn two.
Powers are used at the End of the Movement phase. The replacement Stratagem is used at the Start of the Movement phase. It can be 4 on round two. With 4 C'tan you will get to pick two duplicated powers at the start. Turn one, you change one to the Duplicated power (3), then Turn two, you change another power (4) now each C'tan has the same power.
With the Greater Good leak confirming the Imp/GSC/Tau for PA which debunks the rumor of Tau vs DG. How likely is it that Necrons are stuck with DG for our PA book release?
I noticed some Warriors at LVO, maybe I am too hard on them but they seem like a mistake, even with a Ghost Ark. Tesseract Arks were everywhere which surprised me.
The level of skill and professionalism at lvo was pretty low, even at the top 50 tables, so if you guys have the money to go and just a decent amount of skill I think you should give it a shot. I didn't watch the Necron guy that was on stream too closely, maybe there is something to learn from the game but I heard it was mostly luck, which is a skill I have already fully mastered. The other game of his I watched got finished up rather quick. The atmosphere at the event was surprisingly chill, a few raised hackes and some salt, pretty much average game table and not the pro experience I anticipated.
Pyrothem wrote: 5-1 at LVO against the current meta is impressive no matter how you look at it. Good on ya Eulis Sanders.
Who what? Wow! What was he/she running? What did they get matched against? How did they play tactically to maximize opportunities and mitigate risks?
So many questions!
Eulis Sanders Nihilakh Spearhead: 3 DDA, 4 Destroyers and a heavy, Lord w. Veil, orb and sword. Mephrit Doomwing. Sautekh Spearhead Imotekh WL, 2x TesArk, lonely Heavy Destroyer, Deceiver.
TesArks and Deceiver popped up a lot, doom6 was everywhere.
27/19 vs 3x Lord of Skulls
36/15 vs Cultist spam with Terminator and Bloodbomb
34/21 vs Horror screen with bloodbomb, DPs and a couple of KoS.
36/14 vs Iron Hands successor filth. He seized and Deceivered up his DDAs to be in LOS and range and wiped out his opponent in no time.
34/17 vs Chaos Knights. Stream game. Eulis got an early lead his opponent could not recover from.
25/35 vs RG successor filth.
Tauris_Blazestar wrote: With the Greater Good leak confirming the Imp/GSC/Tau for PA which debunks the rumor of Tau vs DG. How likely is it that Necrons are stuck with DG for our PA book release?
PA is going to have an Imperial Faction in every book. Five bucks say we get stuck with Imperial Guard....and maybe Death Guard.
I dont care what faction(s) we get in our PA book, as long as we dont have to share the book with three other factions, like in engine war. I play daemons as well, and none of the other factions, which means less rules for each faction, and paying for rules which i dont want.
No marine faction getting copy&paste datasheets they already had. How many pages ba and da got that added to nothing they didn't have already? Dozens. So those are pages that fit 4th faction easily
Pyrothem wrote: 5-1 at LVO against the current meta is impressive no matter how you look at it. Good on ya Eulis Sanders.
Who what? Wow! What was he/she running? What did they get matched against? How did they play tactically to maximize opportunities and mitigate risks?
So many questions!
Eulis Sanders Nihilakh Spearhead: 3 DDA, 4 Destroyers and a heavy, Lord w. Veil, orb and sword. Mephrit Doomwing. Sautekh Spearhead Imotekh WL, 2x TesArk, lonely Heavy Destroyer, Deceiver.
TesArks and Deceiver popped up a lot, doom6 was everywhere.
27/19 vs 3x Lord of Skulls
36/15 vs Cultist spam with Terminator and Bloodbomb
34/21 vs Horror screen with bloodbomb, DPs and a couple of KoS.
36/14 vs Iron Hands successor filth. He seized and Deceivered up his DDAs to be in LOS and range and wiped out his opponent in no time.
34/17 vs Chaos Knights. Stream game. Eulis got an early lead his opponent could not recover from.
25/35 vs RG successor filth.
Interesting!
So, some discussion questions:
What is it about the statline for TArks that makes them so attractive for use?
Whilst Doom6 was ubiquitous, aside from the above result, it doesn’t appear to be ‘enough’ to win. Do we think we need to scrap it as a baseline build assumption and look at other strategies? My gut feel is that the DDA component is super flexible and useful, whilst the Air Wing is less so.
I love the assumptions informing Dynasty choice in the above: given the expectation is the strat’s going to be the use case, giving the Tesla AP-1 is quite an uptick in punch—does this seem to be the dominant strategy for employing this formation?
What is it about the statline for TArks that makes them so attractive for use?
It's more mobile and tougher DDA with slightly less punch(but more on the move). I can see use for it. Also good at clearing W3 models like custodians etc. One of the best units necrons have for that I think
T-arks: Has an usable 7T with 3+/5++ save. Then Quantum Shielding and living metal. Main Gun is a tool box, pick the one mode for the target at hand. Optional guns are medium range, but the 12" move helps. Most likely using 2x Gauss Cannon which is a rather strong gun. Perfect to run as Sautekh to over come the Heavy penalty or even just advancing and shooting. With most of it's guns 24" or less, it wants to be close, between the flamer and the charge dice roll manipulation helps mitigate that flaw.
At 180/186/200 points it is rather good. But so much of our good stuff already costs a lot of points and it is overlooked because of past Forgeworld restrictions.
I've been hearing talk about the meta moving towards units that are super effective at taking out units with the Fly keyword. Seeing as most (if not all) of our best units have the Fly keyword, how could we adapt to such a meta or do we just keep pushing through?
We'd have to muscle through it. There's no other option seeing as you've rightly pointed out all our vehicles and best units (Or units that push us into the competitive bracket) have FLY. IF the meta really is shifting to punish FLY without alleviating a few core issues in our Codex then Necrons are arguably going to get the worst end of it competitively.
I wouldn't buy any Tesseract Arks right now (if you don't already have them) until the new Forgeworld books drop. After LVO, I wouldn't be surprised to see some heavy handed nerfs across the board for FW.
D6Damager wrote: I wouldn't buy any Tesseract Arks right now (if you don't already have them) until the new Forgeworld books drop. After LVO, I wouldn't be surprised to see some heavy handed nerfs across the board for FW.
Maybe i'll get lucky and they'll buff the Seraptek slightly. That'd be nice. But yeah, not buying more forge world right now.
Now that deathmarks are a lot cheaper (seriously, they received a ~25% decrease, unless I misread the entry) it might be worth fielding them now. They are actually cheaper than immortals.
Flayed Ones I think also received a points decrease, but you need more of them due to their low armor and melee orientation.
Monoliths received yet another points decrease. Which is nice, but still not enough.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Now that deathmarks are a lot cheaper (seriously, they received a ~25% decrease, unless I misread the entry) it might be worth fielding them now. They are actually cheaper than immortals.
Flayed Ones I think also received a points decrease, but you need more of them due to their low armor and melee orientation.
Monoliths received yet another points decrease. Which is nice, but still not enough.
18% and now that our HQs are fairly priced I do not see the attraction. It's a flawed comparison IMO I take Immortals in part to get CP. You are really replacing Ghost Arks/C'tan/TBs/Destroyers more so than Immortals.
I haven't played much since the update, but Flayed Ones don't seem terrible, they did pretty much what I would expect and want them to do in the past couple games I brought them.
Only deathmarks can assassinate though and counter deep strike though. Its just that before they were too expensive to do so, as if you wanted a good chance of dealing some damage you had to pay 190 points for ten of them. Now you just need 140 points, which is a little more palatable. They still have a niche use, but at least they aren't over priced.
How are you getting 18%? 5 out of 19 is closer to 25%.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Only deathmarks can assassinate though. Its just that before they were too expensive to do so, as if you wanted a good chance of dealing same damage you had to pay 190 points for ten of them. Now you just need 140 points, which is a little more palatable.
How are you getting 18%? 5 out of 19 is closer to 25%.
I have never been able to assassinate anything with them as far as I recall and I don't think DS is popular so their counterstrike ability is useless to me most games. Assuming Mephrit you need 15 shots to kill a Lieutenant, but I'm not buying a situation where my opponent is placing him in a place where I can kill him very often, in fact I don't think I'll even have LOS to him, but if I do it'll be at 13+" away so I'll need two full squads to kill him on average, with a re-roll he's still safe 70% of the time. A 1W Lieutenant is as good as a 4-wound Lieutenant if my opponent gets rid of my snipers. I'd rather invest in a second Battalion or some of the units I mentioned in my previous post.
Deathmarks were 17 in CA18. Whether it is 10 or 13 that makes them competitive I don't know, but I think 14 is not quite low enough. Definitely low enough to have fun with them and not feel like they are a huge drag on your force. If you wanted to waste 10-40 pts on a unit that isn't quite as efficient as other options, then I think that would most likely get lost in the noise of matchups, dice rolls, terrain, missions and what have you. I wish you good luck if you want to try and make them competitive, but for me Deathmarks are a strong casual choice.
Fair enough. I do agree they aren't an auto-include / competitive choice, just something worth considering now they aren't over priced. They still need that marking ability they once had to increase their damage potential. Or maybe just a range increase to 30". That might be a nasty surprise, especially if you can teleport them in a building on your opponent's flank and lay down rapid fire at 15".
CthuluIsSpy wrote: Only deathmarks can assassinate though and counter deep strike though. Its just that before they were too expensive to do so, as if you wanted a good chance of dealing some damage you had to pay 190 points for ten of them. Now you just need 140 points, which is a little more palatable. They still have a niche use, but at least they aren't over priced.
How are you getting 18%? 5 out of 19 is closer to 25%.
i have dropped 10 several times and good if i get 2 wounds. Better bring 2-3 full units if you plan to assasinate anything. Especially as 12" ds prevention bubbles are coming more popular(and deathmarks can't come at all via intercept if they can'w avoid that. Albeit that's rare issue
Dropping points cost only does so much. I don't think dropping the cost of deathmarks is going to ever fix them. It could definitely break them though.
punisher357 wrote: Dropping points cost only does so much. I don't think dropping the cost of deathmarks is going to ever fix them. It could definitely break them though.
Can we agree that 8 pts would be insanely strong and 21 pts would be insanely weak? Would you also say that 11 pts is as insanely strong as 8 pts or that 15 pts is as insanely weak as 21 pts? Are we not coming close to balance? If 12,5 is still insanely weak and 12,4 is insanely strong, could you not price them somewhere between at 12,42 or 12,48? Are we not getting any close to balance? There is a pts cost that is appropriate for any unit or combination, including one where they are taken occasionally and do well in tournaments but aren't spammed by everyone, we might be there already 18% drop is pretty hefty, so they could see play in a meta where their ability to counter-strike and snipe were mega-valuable or in a format where there is no DS restriction.
You can't always fix a unit with point drops. You can make something cheap enough to be an efficient choice, but not efficient at it's intended purpose. Eldar aspects have this problem; Banshees and scorpions are very cheap now, and are almost usable in certain roles, just not the right ones. Banshees can be used as fast moving tar pits to shut down shooting units, not as slayers of armored infantry. Scorpions are cheap objective grabbers that can have a nasty punch vs characters, not an elite anti-horde unit. Deathmarks could be made cheap enough to become useful, but not as assassins, just as decent bodies with anti-infantry guns.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: You can't always fix a unit with point drops. You can make something cheap enough to be an efficient choice, but not efficient at it's intended purpose. Eldar aspects have this problem; Banshees and scorpions are very cheap now, and are almost usable in certain roles, just not the right ones. Banshees can be used as fast moving tar pits to shut down shooting units, not as slayers of armored infantry. Scorpions are cheap objective grabbers that can have a nasty punch vs characters, not an elite anti-horde unit.
Deathmarks could be made cheap enough to become useful, but not as assassins, just as decent bodies with anti-infantry guns.
Yeah, deathmarks really need their special marking ability back. The points reduction is nice and does give them more usage, but they really, really their mark back. Because that's what they are called.
I really don't understand what the writers were thinking when they wrote 8th ed Necrons. Its like they wanted to take everything cool away from necrons and, I dunno, give it to marines or something.
Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll wrote: Well once upon a time, Immortals were halfway between Space Marines and Terminators in toughness what with their higher Toughness.
And warriors were a little above marines in term of power. I wish we where a more elite army with fun/strange tricks rather than an army with no rules and a lot of point reduction. Toys before Boys.
Obviously it's not the wise gameplay choice because elite armies are seldom good, but more a fluffy one to better represent that necron technology is stupidly above the field.
5th started a work that 7th finished in fashionning the silver tide giving us the undead horde with cheap reanimating bodies i really don't like. While i understand why giving necron this feeling make sense (the limitless undead legions), it sacrifices the "super-duper-advanced-but-doomed-race-where-each-one-of-them-is-unkillable" theme.
While the phase out rule from 3th-4th was probably difficult to implement gameplay wise, i find it gave room to make the army unique. 8th edition,with a lot of streamlined rules, would probably not be relevant for these kind of traits, but it would be good to have the sentiment necrons a not just subpar space marines with no rules.
I feel like I'm going to have to sell my soul to a star god just to live long enough to see our Psychic Awakening book. We're gonna be last, aren't we?
IanVanCheese wrote: I feel like I'm going to have to sell my soul to a star god just to live long enough to see our Psychic Awakening book. We're gonna be last, aren't we?
At this point, i'm hoping the book is Necrons vs Custodes so I can get both at the same time, and buy just 1 book for my main armies.
Granted, going last means we'll probably get solid buffs.
Dont expect to much from our PA book, that way you wont be disappointed. I think we will get to choose two abilities for a custom dynasty, new stratagems, new warlord traits, and thats it.
IanVanCheese wrote: I feel like I'm going to have to sell my soul to a star god just to live long enough to see our Psychic Awakening book. We're gonna be last, aren't we?
Could be. Just 2 or 3 books left so odds aren't that bad. But hey at worst july is the month.
IanVanCheese wrote: I feel like I'm going to have to sell my soul to a star god just to live long enough to see our Psychic Awakening book. We're gonna be last, aren't we?
I mean, Necrons are the historical antagonist to Psychic forces in the galaxy... maybe we’re last as a final flourish?
p5freak wrote: Dont expect to much from our PA book, that way you wont be disappointed. I think we will get to choose two abilities for a custom dynasty, new stratagems, new warlord traits, and thats it.
Yeah I know. On the plus side, most of our existing dynasty traits are sub-par, so odds are good that even some mediocre build a dynasty stuff will be good for us. I'm expecting us to get Genestealer cult level treatment.
There are a couple of borderline units that are one good specific strat away from being playable though.
A) A shoot twice strat
B) An 'ignore AP' type strat or DIY Dynasty
C) A 'Transhuman Physiology'-type Strategem
D) A small buff to 'Gauss' weapons since they are completely outperformed by Tesla weapons
A) A shoot twice strat
B) An 'ignore AP' type strat or DIY Dynasty
C) A 'Transhuman Physiology'-type Strategem
D) A small buff to 'Gauss' weapons since they are completely outperformed by Tesla weapons
Yeah I'd be happy with this.
Gauss blasters to D2 would be the obvious solution, though they may need a 1 or 2 pt increase, which is fine. As it stands, they don't do their job versus elite infantry, not in the primaris era. Some ways to add resilience without messing with RP would also be good.
A) A shoot twice strat
B) An 'ignore AP' type strat or DIY Dynasty
C) A 'Transhuman Physiology'-type Strategem
D) A small buff to 'Gauss' weapons since they are completely outperformed by Tesla weapons
Yeah I'd be happy with this.
Gauss blasters to D2 would be the obvious solution, though they may need a 1 or 2 pt increase, which is fine. As it stands, they don't do their job versus elite infantry, not in the primaris era. Some ways to add resilience without messing with RP would also be good.
I actually think they'd be fine as is. An intercessor with stalker bolt rifle gets the same AP, same damage, at a longer range, on a much tougher model.
ImPhaeronWeasel wrote: Please everybody...dont expect RP to ne changed...several times they had the oppurtunity to do so and didnt so thats a big NO.
As someone already said I also only expect DIY Dynasties and some new strats/WL traits maybe some new Ctan powers (3 at max.)
One thing that would suprise me If theyd change DDAs to 3D3 shots like SOB got
This will be it...probably even less
You missed the point entirely. RP doesn't have to change at all if the models that have it are not wiped from the board immediately. Ignore API 1/2 would mean fewer casualties, and so RP could actually occur. It would be a DIY dynasty trait, which fits right in.
Well no -2 flat out. For one nobody does that flat out. Apart from sisters does anybody else ignore -2? And sisters need order(so if you pick that and other you already are better) AND need buff aura which can be removed.
Also frankly that might get too tough. Sisters already are ridiculously tough and that's with t3 no rp. Other dynasties might just as well dissapear
A) A shoot twice strat
B) An 'ignore AP' type strat or DIY Dynasty
C) A 'Transhuman Physiology'-type Strategem
D) A small buff to 'Gauss' weapons since they are completely outperformed by Tesla weapons
Yeah I'd be happy with this.
Gauss blasters to D2 would be the obvious solution, though they may need a 1 or 2 pt increase, which is fine. As it stands, they don't do their job versus elite infantry, not in the primaris era. Some ways to add resilience without messing with RP would also be good.
I actually think they'd be fine as is. An intercessor with stalker bolt rifle gets the same AP, same damage, at a longer range, on a much tougher model.
Maybe. We do get better strength and an extra shot at half range on them, but I see your point (though Intercessors need to go up a couple of points themselves).
What are people's thoughts on the Nihalkh list that did well recently? TabletopTactics did a game that kind of emulated the list and it beat Imperial Fists pretty handily.
Reclaim the Lost Empire has always been a beast of a strat and being survivable is more important than ever.
I'm not sure I am familiar with the list (or batrep in question). Any chance you could post it up? I'd love to look them over.
RTLE is solid, its just hard to use IMO. I use it atm to keep my Seraptek Heavy construct alive since it goes to a 2+/4++ as long as I can run it forward onto an objective midfield.
Hmmm...Haven't played much nihilikh so somehow I had idea you had to be close to objective AND not move to benefit but...nope. Hmmmm...Interesting. Veeeery interesting. Might try that one next time I play with necrons. Well won't have models for said list but something fun.
tneva82 wrote: Well no -2 flat out. For one nobody does that flat out. Apart from sisters does anybody else ignore -2? And sisters need order(so if you pick that and other you already are better) AND need buff aura which can be removed.
Also frankly that might get too tough. Sisters already are ridiculously tough and that's with t3 no rp. Other dynasties might just as well dissapear
You mean like Iron Hands or Imperial Fists, which nobody played until the update?
But seriously, if it applied to infantry only, you'd be giving up Sautekh which means no methodical destruction, possibly no Immotekh, etc.
Also, while we're speculating. Maybe War of the Spider will give a buff to Spyders? That'd sure be nice!
Mostly, I hope whatever we get gives us reason to field other units that we haven't seen in a while. Improving internal balance is always good for the game I think.
tneva82 wrote: Well no -2 flat out. For one nobody does that flat out. Apart from sisters does anybody else ignore -2? And sisters need order(so if you pick that and other you already are better) AND need buff aura which can be removed.
Also frankly that might get too tough. Sisters already are ridiculously tough and that's with t3 no rp. Other dynasties might just as well dissapear
You mean like Iron Hands or Imperial Fists, which nobody played until the update?
But seriously, if it applied to infantry only, you'd be giving up Sautekh which means no methodical destruction, possibly no Immotekh, etc.
Also, while we're speculating. Maybe War of the Spider will give a buff to Spyders? That'd sure be nice!
Mostly, I hope whatever we get gives us reason to field other units that we haven't seen in a while. Improving internal balance is always good for the game I think.
Well certainly non-IH/non-IF armies are suffering from sharp drop...
But if you have willing opponents howabout try it? Rather than sautekh bonuses you ignore -2. I expect your opponents will get sick of that. Every opponent of my sisters have so far been cursing just how tough they are(2k game, entire tau army minus crisises in reserve shot T1 with everybody in range and target, 4 girls died...IG basilisks and regular russes might just as well not been there for all the good they did...) and that was with T3 models that don't come back alive. In hands of T4 guys that come back and without even having buff character to snipe to get rid of -2 ignoring down to -1? Holy smokey.
Oh and you could still get Imotekh by -1CP at worst. Methodical destruction is okayish maybe but frankly haven't ever felt I miss it with my nephrekh. But having army that basically laughs off tau army firepower meanwhile...
(I'm feeling sometimes dirty with my sisters...Only thing keeping them in check is near universal 24" range and 12" being the sweet spot for guns)
-1 I could get behind but flat out ignore -2 AND ability to even pick second custom dynasty...That -2 would alone be better than sister's main order bonus and necrons would get second on top of that?
edit: Mind you in terms of fluff and feel I could get behind that. However I think it would require a) upping power of other dynasties to match them and b) some price upgrades to units affected. Note that even with infantry that still includes stuff like destroyers and heavy destroyers. I know I would be looking at doing armies that spam just immortals and destroyers of both variety if they ignored -2 AP.
Yeah, it would definitely improve our power level. It's just wishlisting, and was a thought that both fluff and power are served. Ignore -1 would be useful for sure, but I'm not sure it'd make warriors worth it.
Back to tactics. Played in a 30 player ITC RTT, 6 games. Came in 9th. Played against :
* Minor loss Imperial Fists 2x thunderfires, 2x Whirlwinds, big dread, gunline of primaris
* Minor loss Iron Hands 2x big dreads 3x small dreads 3x thunderfires
* Major win Tau triptide + 30+drones, 3 suit characters
* Minor loss Iron Hands + Blood Angels 3x thunderfires, 4 character dreads
* Major win Chaos 3x Knights and Alpha Legion
* Major win Craftworld Eldar
My list was
Spoiler:
Immotekh
3x DDA
3x Doomscythes
(Novokh)
Destoyer Lord
3x6 Wraiths
4x scarabs
In the 3 losses, the Doomscythes were a liability. They always survived first turn, but the strat was not too useful. All 3 losses were hammer and anvil or pointy hammer and anvil (rolled randomly). Given that the losses were within 4-5 points, and the wins were fairly substantial, I'm pretty happy with the results. I'm thinking that I'll be swapping out the DS for Heavy Destroyers and some characters, which will let me be more aggressive with the DDA and do more reliable damage on turn one with Methodical Destruction against big targets.
iGuy91 wrote: I'm not sure I am familiar with the list (or batrep in question). Any chance you could post it up? I'd love to look them over.
RTLE is solid, its just hard to use IMO. I use it atm to keep my Seraptek Heavy construct alive since it goes to a 2+/4++ as long as I can run it forward onto an objective midfield.
iGuy91 wrote: I'm not sure I am familiar with the list (or batrep in question). Any chance you could post it up? I'd love to look them over.
RTLE is solid, its just hard to use IMO. I use it atm to keep my Seraptek Heavy construct alive since it goes to a 2+/4++ as long as I can run it forward onto an objective midfield.
Chronotec with Thrall of Silent King, Veil Lord with Orb and sword,
6, 6, 10 Tesla Immortals (as Chef said I was dying to fit in some Gauss, but you still need to deal with Orks etc)
Deceiver, 10 Shield Lychguard, 6 Wraiths 4 with pistols.
Scythe overlord with Orb 3 DDA and 2 x 3 Heavy Destroyers
All Nihilakh. It was run by Chris Frosin at the Warhammer World GT. It went 4-1 (played Quad Knights, Custodes, Iron Hands, Imperial Fists and then Grey Knights). Not 100% sure, but pretty sure Grey Knights was his loss, which is understandable given the smite output they have now. But with some tweaks aka a gakload of scarabs, I think this might be interesting.
It's basically about using Shieldguard strat and Reclaim to make the wraiths/shieldguard impossible to shift, while the Arks/Destroyers rain hell on their big guns. TT ran a variant list with what they had and it did really well too, beat an IF centurion castle.
iGuy91 wrote: I'm not sure I am familiar with the list (or batrep in question). Any chance you could post it up? I'd love to look them over.
RTLE is solid, its just hard to use IMO. I use it atm to keep my Seraptek Heavy construct alive since it goes to a 2+/4++ as long as I can run it forward onto an objective midfield.
Chronotec with Thrall of Silent King, Veil Lord with Orb and sword,
6, 6, 10 Tesla Immortals (as Chef said I was dying to fit in some Gauss, but you still need to deal with Orks etc)
Deceiver, 10 Shield Lychguard, 6 Wraiths 4 with pistols.
Scythe overlord with Orb 3 DDA and 2 x 3 Heavy Destroyers
All Nihilakh. It was run by Chris Frosin at the Warhammer World GT. It went 4-1 (played Quad Knights, Custodes, Iron Hands, Imperial Fists and then Grey Knights). Not 100% sure, but pretty sure Grey Knights was his loss, which is understandable given the smite output they have now. But with some tweaks aka a gakload of scarabs, I think this might be interesting.
It's basically about using Shieldguard strat and Reclaim to make the wraiths/shieldguard impossible to shift, while the Arks/Destroyers rain hell on their big guns. TT ran a variant list with what they had and it did really well too, beat an IF centurion castle.
Where's the jury on how many times you can do the strat per turn?
tneva82 wrote: Here irrelevant. Shielguard strat and wraiths both have 3++ aka 2++ with the nihilikh stratagem. 1++ would be pointless as 1 fails anyway
edit: No wait I see. Both for 2++ the goal?
Well goal is irrelevant really, but that would be one use of it, sure.
I thought he was talking about upping inv save multiple steps which is why it wasn't relevant here. 3+->2+ is max you need. I have seen that idea being proposed mainly with the super heavy walker thing. That's where my confusion came from
tneva82 wrote: I thought he was talking about upping inv save multiple steps which is why it wasn't relevant here. 3+->2+ is max you need. I have seen that idea being proposed mainly with the super heavy walker thing. That's where my confusion came from
well theres both the wraiths and the lychguard, right? If plan is to have them both unshiftable they would both benefit from 2++. Back then there was some fierce discussion on how many times said stratgem could be used, just asking if that has been addressed lately.
tneva82 wrote: I thought he was talking about upping inv save multiple steps which is why it wasn't relevant here. 3+->2+ is max you need. I have seen that idea being proposed mainly with the super heavy walker thing. That's where my confusion came from
well theres both the wraiths and the lychguard, right? If plan is to have them both unshiftable they would both benefit from 2++. Back then there was some fierce discussion on how many times said stratgem could be used, just asking if that has been addressed lately.
Multiple FAQs have been released, and GW hasnt provided any clarification on that matter, and i doubt they ever will. Giving both shieldguard and wraith a 2+ inv would cost 6CP per turn. You would need a brigade or a double battalion to keep that up for two turns.
tneva82 wrote: I thought he was talking about upping inv save multiple steps which is why it wasn't relevant here. 3+->2+ is max you need. I have seen that idea being proposed mainly with the super heavy walker thing. That's where my confusion came from
well theres both the wraiths and the lychguard, right? If plan is to have them both unshiftable they would both benefit from 2++. Back then there was some fierce discussion on how many times said stratgem could be used, just asking if that has been addressed lately.
Multiple FAQs have been released, and GW hasnt provided any clarification on that matter, and i doubt they ever will. Giving both shieldguard and wraith a 2+ inv would cost 6CP per turn. You would need a brigade or a double battalion to keep that up for two turns.
Yeah, I think the better play is to hide one unit (the wraiths) and use their manoeuvrability as the threat. Or keep the lychguard back but have the veil ready to shunt them up field when the wraiths eventually die?
OK, so I've been messing around with Nihilakh. Having a bullet proof blob of Lychguard is great, but it's CP hungry tactic for sure. Double battalion seems impossible for Necrons though, if you want anything else at least.
I've also been looking at CCBs again. Since they're characters, a couple of them could do some work sat behind the Lychguard/Wraiths slinging Gauss cannon shots up field, while being quick enough to zip between objectives and providing more threats to anyone who comes near mid-field.
Current 2K list is:
Battalion - Nihilakh Overlord with Res Orb
Cryptek with Veil
3 x 5 Tesla Immortals
3 x DDA
1 x Deceiver
10 x Shield Lychguard
Spearhead - Nihilakh
Cryptek with Cloak
6 x Wraiths
6 x Destroyers
3 x Scarabs
The only wiggle room in the list is the destroyers tbh. I could drop them for 6 Heavy Destroyers and use the spare points to make the overlord a CCB. Or they could be dropped to squeeze in another HQ and 15 immortals to go double battalion. I lose killing power, but I can keep the shields up for the whole game effectively. What do we think? Just looking to get some discussion going tbh
Having played in a major competitive event this weekend, I can confirm that DDA based builds are not competitive versus the major players in the meta.
Incoming firepower is based on VoF attacks with moderate AP (so as to overcome the high variance pitfalls of the extensive invulnerability saves in the meta), which is perfect weaponry versus DDAs.
Character-centric builds assuming safety from targeting also suffer “splash hate” meant for the various, crucial buff/aura builds out there.
DDAs are still point-for-point our best option from a mathhammer perspective, but the current meta is accidentally hating them out of viability.
sieGermans wrote: Having played in a major competitive event this weekend, I can confirm that DDA based builds are not competitive versus the major players in the meta.
Incoming firepower is based on VoF attacks with moderate AP (so as to overcome the high variance pitfalls of the extensive invulnerability saves in the meta), which is perfect weaponry versus DDAs.
Character-centric builds assuming safety from targeting also suffer “splash hate” meant for the various, crucial buff/aura builds out there.
DDAs are still point-for-point our best option from a mathhammer perspective, but the current meta is accidentally hating them out of viability.
FYI
Problem is, what could we possibly replace them with? I think we just need to be cagey with them and use their huge range where possible. Also, Deceiver to get them out of/into LOS/range on first turn as required. As for characters being weak to snipers, say hello to the lychguard resurgence.
I know we're weak and the meta is pushing into a direction that makes us even weaker (grey knights MW spam is bad for us), but I just don't see what our options are?
sieGermans wrote: Having played in a major competitive event this weekend, I can confirm that DDA based builds are not competitive versus the major players in the meta.
Incoming firepower is based on VoF attacks with moderate AP (so as to overcome the high variance pitfalls of the extensive invulnerability saves in the meta), which is perfect weaponry versus DDAs.
Character-centric builds assuming safety from targeting also suffer “splash hate” meant for the various, crucial buff/aura builds out there.
DDAs are still point-for-point our best option from a mathhammer perspective, but the current meta is accidentally hating them out of viability.
FYI
Problem is, what could we possibly replace them with? I think we just need to be cagey with them and use their huge range where possible. Also, Deceiver to get them out of/into LOS/range on first turn as required. As for characters being weak to snipers, say hello to the lychguard resurgence.
I know we're weak and the meta is pushing into a direction that makes us even weaker (grey knights MW spam is bad for us), but I just don't see what our options are?
Just don’t base your viable AT strategy on their survival is the key point I’m making. If your missions plan (ITC/ETC/other) requires actually killing the high toughness target and/or relies on mass str4 gunfire, don’t plan for your DDAs being the only route to accomplishing this.
Alternatively, chart a course to VP victory that can be accomplished by doing something else.
sieGermans wrote: Having played in a major competitive event this weekend, I can confirm that DDA based builds are not competitive versus the major players in the meta.
Incoming firepower is based on VoF attacks with moderate AP (so as to overcome the high variance pitfalls of the extensive invulnerability saves in the meta), which is perfect weaponry versus DDAs.
Character-centric builds assuming safety from targeting also suffer “splash hate” meant for the various, crucial buff/aura builds out there.
DDAs are still point-for-point our best option from a mathhammer perspective, but the current meta is accidentally hating them out of viability.
FYI
Problem is, what could we possibly replace them with? I think we just need to be cagey with them and use their huge range where possible. Also, Deceiver to get them out of/into LOS/range on first turn as required. As for characters being weak to snipers, say hello to the lychguard resurgence.
I know we're weak and the meta is pushing into a direction that makes us even weaker (grey knights MW spam is bad for us), but I just don't see what our options are?
Just don’t base your viable AT strategy on their survival is the key point I’m making. If your missions plan (ITC/ETC/other) requires actually killing the high toughness target and/or relies on mass str4 gunfire, don’t plan for your DDAs being the only route to accomplishing this.
Alternatively, chart a course to VP victory that can be accomplished by doing something else.
Yeah that's fair, but that's basically true of any army/unit. Have redundancy built it. If you need extra heavy firepower, heavy destroyers are the way to go.
I agree on VP route being our best bet too. We can potentially hold the centre of the board with some tough to shift units. I think we can safely put the nail in the doom scythe half of the doom six though (finally).
In 8th don't count on any 3 units being irreplaceable and assume they will survive enemy turn if they are visible. Well knights have to asume 1 on open will go. If 3 knights go down in turn game's lost anyway.
40klf unit is visible it'" dead if opponent wants bar some exceptions(characters being prime one and some units like 10 paladins are tanky enough they can actually survive)
I'm starting to learn necrons because of his looking and lore, I want to play them despite they're not very competitive in this meta, I don't really care, in tournaments I just play orks, I just want to play necrons because I like them.
Is this list any good? Will I lose absolutely all the matches? Any tips?
I would have some FO and deathmarks in DR, with veil of darkness I would be able to surprise my rival in turn 2 and grab some objectives, with 3 DDA I should be able to knock down the heavyweights of the rival, and then I've got 5 units of immortals, some scarabs and 20 necron warriors for grabbing objectives. For fast attack and doing some damage, I've got 9 tomb blades, 1 DS
I play tournaments with orks but I'm SUPER NOOB necron, so there must be things I'm saying and are wrong, sorry for that
I would scale down for battalion. CP good but not THAT good and you want bigger squads with necrrons generally. Necron elites generally are just bad tax and for scythes 3 or 0 is common wisdom.
I find this list quite resistant against dakka, a lot of RP, invul... but I don't find any special weapon for killing primaris, I supose going Gauss is good due to -2.
Note 3+ is generally better. It's same or better as 5++ vs -2 or less and lascannons etc are bit of waste vs tb. Couple 5++ does the trick. 3+ and ignore cover for rest.
Myself i would drop flyer and bolster destroyers that are bloody amazing swiss knife.
Tesla for immortals, and gauss for tomb blades, also add shieldvanes for them. Not every model needs a shadowloom. Get rid of the doom scythe and the warriors. Get some scarabs, increase wraith to 6. Two destroyers arent worth it, get rid if them, or max them.
Having only 3 DDAs is unreliable for anti-Vehicle in scenarios involving Knights/etc., just FYI.
As per prior discussion, you should probably still play them, pero lo más probable es que tendrás que también jugar para puntos en vez de asumiendo que van a resolver todo lo que encontrarás.
So, played an ITC game vs the New Iron Hands, fought them to a draw, had a couple of thoughts.
The reduction of firepower honestly is only slight.
It is actually possible to kill the leviathan dreadnought anchoring the formation. (Specifically using doomsday arks and d6 weapons, destroyers kinda fell flat)
We can actually use better range on our AT to make them have to move to get targets, which impacts their BS now. Its handy.
I'm now of the opinion, that 40K ITC is now all-alpha-strike-all-the-time. With seize in the game, poor players would assume that either they were definitely going first, set up a huge alpha-strike then whine and complain that someone seized.
The better players would deploy aggressively, but still with the assumption that they might not actually go first, and so had a recoverable position in for that 1/6 chance.
Now, you know 100% that you're going first, and so can deploy in the most aggressive possible position to do the most damage on turn one before the opponent has any response other than trying to hide. With 32" flying assaults in the game, and grey knights doing damage + movement in the psychic phase, screening isn't even enough any more. So, my suggestion is go for maximum alpha strike, and the first roll of the game determines the winner.
Hopefully people will see the results of this sooner rather than later. When people talk about removing luck from the first turn roll, I don't think they understand how they've now made the first turn roll even more luck dependent.
To pull this back to Necrons, I'll be moving away from Wraiths (sadly, as they are my favorite models) and toward heavy destroyers and other mobile ranged units.
With Sappers and Nilakh, 2+invulnerability wraiths are better, even key, in ITC now. Just don't count on them as killing units. There to contest/score/render unscoreable while the rest of your army applies pressure and kills at range.
DogHeadGod wrote: With Sappers and Nilakh, 2+invulnerability wraiths are better, even key, in ITC now. Just don't count on them as killing units. There to contest/score/render unscoreable while the rest of your army applies pressure and kills at range.
You can’t Nihilakh buff Wraiths before the opponent’s turn if you’re going second.
DogHeadGod wrote: With Sappers and Nilakh, 2+invulnerability wraiths are better, even key, in ITC now. Just don't count on them as killing units. There to contest/score/render unscoreable while the rest of your army applies pressure and kills at range.
You can’t Nihilakh buff Wraiths before the opponent’s turn if you’re going second.
Nihilakh and Sappers won't interact until turn 3 unless you are nerfing your own objectives. By then the tempo of the game has already been set, so having a 250 point combat unit doing literally nothing isn't a good plan. In most cases it's easier/better to kill your opponent, or to simply hold the objective in the first place, and every scenario I can come up with, Sappers just isn't worth it IMO.
I'm looking forward to seeing someone use sappers effectively and proving me wrong. I'd love to hear "Those Wraith Sappers are just OP!"
DogHeadGod wrote: With Sappers and Nilakh, 2+invulnerability wraiths are better, even key, in ITC now. Just don't count on them as killing units. There to contest/score/render unscoreable while the rest of your army applies pressure and kills at range.
You can’t Nihilakh buff Wraiths before the opponent’s turn if you’re going second.
Nihilakh and Sappers won't interact until turn 3 unless you are nerfing your own objectives. By then the tempo of the game has already been set, so having a 250 point combat unit doing literally nothing isn't a good plan. In most cases it's easier/better to kill your opponent, or to simply hold the objective in the first place, and every scenario I can come up with, Sappers just isn't worth it IMO.
I'm looking forward to seeing someone use sappers effectively and proving me wrong. I'd love to hear "Those Wraith Sappers are just OP!"
If you can't hide your Wraiths from a turn 1 alpha strike you don't have enough terrain. I've been using Nihilakh Wraiths a lot lately and haven't had a problem with them getting shot off the table, in fact I haven't lost them in more than 3/6 in my last four games, I think the only fear you should have is the SM Tremor Shells Stratagem.
Sappers is very wordy and a little weird so I'm not at all sure how it's supposed to be played, but it definitely doesn't prevent you from scoring the objective and it doesn't allow you to sap objectives in your DZ. Can your opponent not contest since they cannot score it? Can you sap an objective and immediately afterwards score a point for having 1+ sapped objectives? If the answer is yes to both of those you can advance and charge in your Wraiths and wrestle an objective out of a big unit of Troops, grab the 2++ and the hold the objective until your opponent's fight phase turn 1. Assuming you're going second this could potentially be very easy to get hold more. 3x3 Scarabs + 3x3 Wraiths could make for easy recon T2/3 by rushing out two units on each side of the board and keeping the rest of your army more or less central so you're sure you can have 2 units in each of your "home" corners.
Looking a bit more closely at it, I can see how it was misinterpreted at my last RTT.
You can move, charge, attack, and then at the end of your turn, activate the sappers rule. It only means that the opponent cannot score it, not that you automatically score it. This continues during the opponents next turn, unless they charge you and make you fight.
You can definitely still score it under normal conditions, and it doesn't conflict with holding one or more. Sappers appears to be particularly good if you are going second, because you can steal away the "hold more" without retribution.
As for playing with "enough" terrain, when you travel to various tournaments, you're at the mercy of the venue when it comes to having enough. And having enough to hide all your units (wraiths are the last ones that get to hide) is quite unlikely.
barontuman wrote: Looking a bit more closely at it, I can see how it was misinterpreted at my last RTT.
You can move, charge, attack, and then at the end of your turn, activate the sappers rule. It only means that the opponent cannot score it, not that you automatically score it. This continues during the opponents next turn, unless they charge you and make you fight.
You can definitely still score it under normal conditions, and it doesn't conflict with holding one or more. Sappers appears to be particularly good if you are going second, because you can steal away the "hold more" without retribution.
As for playing with "enough" terrain, when you travel to various tournaments, you're at the mercy of the venue when it comes to having enough. And having enough to hide all your units (wraiths are the last ones that get to hide) is quite unlikely.
Echoing the terrain comments here: LVO, GW and the other major tournaments definitely don’t offer enough terrain to hide all Wraiths. I “get” you can do the ‘hide the last one(s)’ trick for shooting, but that’s not going to save you from Combat.
I think Guard are one of our best matchups to be honest, our big guns just melt their tanks and Tesla/gauss flayers means we can clear the infantry super quickly too. I don't think I've lost a game to them this edition.
Had my first game (Nova 19 rules) with my new Nihilakh list, but it was against a weird GSC list with 9 ridgerunners and three hellhounds. They cleared my immortals pretty effectively, but just couldn't chew through the lychguard or wraiths.
My Deceiver got demo charged to hell, which is what happens everytime I bring a C'Tan vs GSC. Overall I'm liking the list, but want to see how it handles real firepower. It doesn't give up many easy secondaries though, which is nice.
Another practice game under my belt with the Nihilakh Shieldguard list, this time against Ad Mech. Format was NOVA 2019 rules
My List:
Spoiler:
Overlord, Cryptek with Veil
3 x 5 Immortals
3 x DDA Deceiver
10 x Shield Lychguard
1 x Cryptek with cloak
6 wraiths
6 destroyers
3 x scarabs
Ad Mech List:
Spoiler:
Cawl
3 x Scorpius gunboat
3 x Dunecrawler,
3 x Transport boat
2 Termite drills
10 man shooty priests (not seen these in a while, but they hurt)
infantry squads (some with plasma)
Some other characters
Managed to pull out the win (23-18). Hammer and Anvil. Ad Mech went first, I gambled and deceivered the lychguard into cover in the middle of the board and they tanked the entire army's shooting thanks to a 2+/3++ . I lost 4 in the end I think. My turn I veiled up the destroyers and between them and the Arks I popped all three Scorpius. Couple of lychguard came back, then they and the wraiths wrapped and trapped a transport boat that goat too close in his turn. His drills turned up in his turn 2. I lost an Ark to priests (shooting and combat) Destroyers got smoked. From here it was just attrition. I started to run out of firepower and CP, so my tough units started to get chipped away. He blew up one of his drills when I killed it to finish off an injured Ark (mistake on my part for leaving it so close). But ultimately, I'd kept him pinned in and denied him enough secondaries to pull off the win.
Takeaways: Lychguard still can't kill a small piglet in combat, but they're bloody tough to shift. In objective games, they certainly have a place. Overlord felt useless without good buffing targets and was too slow to keep up once the lychguard had been deceivered. Considering trying to swap him for a CCB. Wraiths are quick and annoying, but also struggled to kill hard targets. I love the resiliency of the list, but wish it had more teeth.
IanVanCheese wrote: Takeaways: Lychguard still can't kill a small piglet in combat, but they're bloody tough to shift. In objective games, they certainly have a place. Overlord felt useless without good buffing targets and was too slow to keep up once the lychguard had been deceivered. Considering trying to swap him for a CCB. Wraiths are quick and annoying, but also struggled to kill hard targets. I love the resiliency of the list, but wish it had more teeth.
I will probably try your list in the future as i love the idea
I really hope PA give us a way to boost Lychguard damage though. Tomorrow i'll try a list with some scythe Lychguard as some sort of counter-charge unit. I only play in a friendly environment (ETC format), with a lot of power armor, and i'm quite bored with being "free" in close combat (Tsons demon princes/maulerfiend/heldrakes, SM Invictors/characters) so i want to try something else than just fly away and shoot. List is far from perfect but i want to give it a test.
My List :
Spoiler:
Sautekh Batallion Imotekh Lord with voidblade/resorb and Veil
3 x 5 Tesla immortals
Deceiver 8 Lychguard with Warscythe
6 Destroyers with 1 Heavy Destroyer
2 DDA 3 Heavy Destroyers
Sautekh Air Wing 3 Doomscythes
I only play 2 DDA because i'm lazy to build the last one (as i want to paint it before assembly), but i hesitate to swap the Heavy Destroyer and some lychguard for a DDA. I still play the Doomscythes even if they are vulnerable to lose one T1 as i find them useful even without the strat for various uses (big footprint, character kill, small units on backfield objectives).
IanVanCheese wrote: Takeaways: Lychguard still can't kill a small piglet in combat, but they're bloody tough to shift. In objective games, they certainly have a place. Overlord felt useless without good buffing targets and was too slow to keep up once the lychguard had been deceivered. Considering trying to swap him for a CCB. Wraiths are quick and annoying, but also struggled to kill hard targets. I love the resiliency of the list, but wish it had more teeth.
I will probably try your list in the future as i love the idea
I really hope PA give us a way to boost Lychguard damage though.
Tomorrow i'll try a list with some scythe Lychguard as some sort of counter-charge unit. I only play in a friendly environment (ETC format), with a lot of power armor, and i'm quite bored with being "free" in close combat (Tsons demon princes/maulerfiend/heldrakes, SM Invictors/characters) so i want to try something else than just fly away and shoot. List is far from perfect but i want to give it a test.
My List :
Spoiler:
Sautekh Batallion
Imotekh
Lord with voidblade/resorb and Veil
3 x 5 Tesla immortals
Deceiver
8 Lychguard with Warscythe
6 Destroyers with 1 Heavy Destroyer
2 DDA 3 Heavy Destroyers
Sautekh Air Wing
3 Doomscythes
I only play 2 DDA because i'm lazy to build the last one (as i want to paint it before assembly), but i hesitate to swap the Heavy Destroyer and some lychguard for a DDA.
I still play the Doomscythes even if they are vulnerable to lose one T1 as i find them useful even without the strat for various uses (big footprint, character kill, small units on backfield objectives).
Yeah if you're attached to the Doom Scythes, there isn't much wiggle room in the list. But if you dropped them, you could get the third DDA and another 6 heavy destroyers/another full lychguard blob/Tomb Blades.
How do you find the Scytheguard? I know they hit harder, but I find they die before the reach combat unless they veil and hope for the 8" charge. On top of that, their damage output still just seems OK.
The weaknesses of my list are lack of screening and firepower. I can fix one problem or the other... maybe. I need to see how the meta swings before I decide which issue to fix.
I still maintain that lychguard are primarily a defensive unit and not an offensive unit, hence their high defensive stats and wound interception ability. You want them to stick close to your HQ units at all times in case of those pesky snipers. As they are defensive you don't have to worry about getting a transport, but it does mean that maxing out squads is a waste of points. Having scythe guard escort a chronotek would give them an invul as well as the RP bonus.
I really hope they give Lychguard heroic intervention. That would solidify their role as a counter-charge unit.
I agree that they are defensive, but not in the way you suggest. Our characters are barely worth protecting tbh, they're the biggest tax in our book.
Lychguard, for me anyway, are ground holders. You throw them onto an objective and dare your opponent to come take it away from you. If they do, they'll expend huge resources shooting them and probably still fail to kill them.
IanVanCheese wrote: I agree that they are defensive, but not in the way you suggest. Our characters are barely worth protecting tbh, they're the biggest tax in our book.
Lychguard, for me anyway, are ground holders. You throw them onto an objective and dare your opponent to come take it away from you. If they do, they'll expend huge resources shooting them and probably still fail to kill them.
Using them as a backline / objective guard is handy, yes.
I mentioned character protection, because you don't want to give up first blood or warlord.
Our characters may be crap compared to everyone else's, but they still provide buffs and they still give away VP upon death
sieGermans wrote: Having played in a major competitive event this weekend, I can confirm that DDA based builds are not competitive versus the major players in the meta.
Incoming firepower is based on VoF attacks with moderate AP (so as to overcome the high variance pitfalls of the extensive invulnerability saves in the meta), which is perfect weaponry versus DDAs.
Character-centric builds assuming safety from targeting also suffer “splash hate” meant for the various, crucial buff/aura builds out there.
DDAs are still point-for-point our best option from a mathhammer perspective, but the current meta is accidentally hating them out of viability.
FYI
Problem is, what could we possibly replace them with? I think we just need to be cagey with them and use their huge range where possible. Also, Deceiver to get them out of/into LOS/range on first turn as required. As for characters being weak to snipers, say hello to the lychguard resurgence.
I know we're weak and the meta is pushing into a direction that makes us even weaker (grey knights MW spam is bad for us), but I just don't see what our options are?
Why not replace them with heavy destroyers? Especially in the ITC now that big game is based on how many wounds are delt and not model destruction. HD's have already been discussed so we know the advantages, plus they are much cheaper which would give you your points to shuffle detachments or upgrade to a CCB.
The gaus flayer arrays are nice, but they are very match up dependent and if I am honest seem to do less and less lately. The main gun is nice but just too random overall. I hate rolling low when I need high and then finally rolling 6 shots and pouring 15+ damage on that model that has only a few wounds left. At least HD's always have 3 shots and they basically come stock with both the sauhtek and Nihilak trait lol.
Sorry I know I am a tad late on this but wanted to chime in.
p5freak wrote: Why would I want to trade T5 and W9 against T6 and W14 and QS, for almost the same points ?
Technically, for the cost of a DDA (slightly less) you get 4 HDs. Admittedly squad sizes would lead to oddities in unit counts, but point for point you’re getting:
There's also something to be said for getting a straight up +1 to hit from MWBD against many targets. Consider 3 DDA vs 3x3 Heavy Destoyers targeting -2 to hit Eldar flyers. Your first DDA shot may be your only "big number of shots" and then be straight up -2 to hit. While your first heavy destroyers with MWBD will get a consistent 3 shots with only -1 net, then Methodical Destruction will give you and additional +1 to hit on the others. Much less reliable with DDA.
barontuman wrote: There's also something to be said for getting a straight up +1 to hit from MWBD against many targets. Consider 3 DDA vs 3x3 Heavy Destoyers targeting -2 to hit Eldar flyers. Your first DDA shot may be your only "big number of shots" and then be straight up -2 to hit. While your first heavy destroyers with MWBD will get a consistent 3 shots with only -1 net, then Methodical Destruction will give you and additional +1 to hit on the others. Much less reliable with DDA.
Heavy Destroyers also have an easier time moving within 12" to get down to -1 in the first place. Shooting at a -2 Eldar plane is a losing proposition since they can use Reflexes to get -3, unless you assumed you were already within 12" and your opponent used Reflexes. My meta has a pretty large amount of variety, so I'm not seeing flyer spam as much as someone might with a smaller pool and maybe just 1-2 players that consistently play flying circuses.
I agree that Heavy Destroyers are fantastic, but I think they're an "as well as" DDAs, not instead of. I think Heavy Destroyers should be replacing Doom Scythes or regular destroyers in people's lists.
The only reason I haven't is because I hate the finecast noodle guns and cba converting 6 heavy destroyers yet (I've done one).
p5freak wrote: Why would I want to trade T5 and W9 against T6 and W14 and QS, for almost the same points ?
Technically, for the cost of a DDA (slightly less) you get 4 HDs. Admittedly squad sizes would lead to oddities in unit counts, but point for point you’re getting:
Right, i forgot about their points drop, i thought they were still 50. But you cant have a unit of 4. Only 2x2, which makes it easier to wipe out one unit, and deny you RP.
What IvanVanCheese wrote: Not instead of, in addition to.
Doomscythes, when they worked, were amazing and won many games for me. But in the gases they didn't, they cost me the game by giving away Big Game Hunter virtually on turn 1. @p5freak, I'd never field them in units of 2, but in units of 3. They comparison was just points to points. After you're done, you end up with X many points left over which you put into something equally useful. It's not a situation where you are doing a direct replacement for anything without having to modify your list somewhat.
The real problem is the anti-infantry shots that you lose when replacing either DS or DDA. That's the real issue that needs to be solved. I felt that the Tesla Destructors were quite useful, and I've seen the Gauss Flayer Arrays absolutely melt some larger units.
barontuman wrote: What IvanVanCheese wrote: Not instead of, in addition to.
Doomscythes, when they worked, were amazing and won many games for me. But in the gases they didn't, they cost me the game by giving away Big Game Hunter virtually on turn 1. @p5freak, I'd never field them in units of 2, but in units of 3. They comparison was just points to points. After you're done, you end up with X many points left over which you put into something equally useful. It's not a situation where you are doing a direct replacement for anything without having to modify your list somewhat.
The real problem is the anti-infantry shots that you lose when replacing either DS or DDA. That's the real issue that needs to be solved. I felt that the Tesla Destructors were quite useful, and I've seen the Gauss Flayer Arrays absolutely melt some larger units.
Yeah I'd miss the flayers, they do serious work even if it's just clearing up chaff that wanders too close.
It's true you lose the tesla destructors if you drop the scythes for heavy destroyers, but for 453 pts (just over the cost of three scythes) you can get 9 heavy destroyers and a ghost ark to bring in some chaff clearance.
I'm messing around with the idea of running a CCB over an overlord at the moment. My overlord never does anything and he's too slow to keep up with deceivered lychguard (and I only have 3 x 5 immortals, so he's not much of a force multiplier). If he'd come down another 10-15pts I think it'd be a no-brainer, but as it stands I'm unsure. Why do all our HQs suck (stormlord excluded).
Other option is a Destroyer Lord , but he has his own issues.
If I were replacing something for the 9 HD's it would be the flyers for sure. Half the time opponent has very good chance of blowing up one anyway denying stratagem and without it they are bit of a meh anyway.
3 DDA+9 HD meanwhile has plenty of AT power. Too bad don't have cash to buy heavy destroyers :(
I'm just starting Necrons do I'm not too sure what I'm doing.
But I wanted to ask do people usually take their Immortals in squads of 10 to max the chances of RP, or squads of 5 for a cheaper battalion.
dan2026 wrote: I'm just starting Necrons do I'm not too sure what I'm doing.
But I wanted to ask do people usually take their Immortals in squads of 10 to max the chances of RP, or squads of 5 for a cheaper battalion.
Yes. Yes they do. . But hardly ever anything in between, but it does happen.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And often times we take none, just because the HQ tax is so high.
IHateNids wrote: So, it appears War of The Spider holds Emperor's Children
Does this change anybody's hope/fear of what we will/won't get when our Psychic Awakening finally rolls around?
If you are really hoping for anything besides maybe 1 model and a page or two of rules in whichever the last book is, there is a chance you are setting yourself up to be disappointed.
Now, it may well be we get several models and a bunch of new rules, but I don't see any reason to figure that is probable at all. Plausible? Yes. Likely? No way to say.
My personal approach is to figure we get shafted, then be pleasantly surprised when maybe we don't.
IHateNids wrote: So, it appears War of The Spider holds Emperor's Children
Does this change anybody's hope/fear of what we will/won't get when our Psychic Awakening finally rolls around?
I saw a good theory that War of the Spider will be Fabius Bile (whose nickname is the Spider), versus Sezeras (who is a spider) versus Harlequins (who live in the webway). Hoping that's it and that like Orks and Wolves, we both get a model (sorry Harlequins). I think really all we're likely to get is Szeras and build a dynasty rules. Maybe new chaplain-esque powers for crypteks at a stretch.
So there's no odds on us getting our "Primarch" in the form of Szarekh then?
Because again, that article appeared a couple WDs back, and now knowing we dont have to provide the spider we may be able to get lucky enough to get something actually viable
IHateNids wrote: So there's no odds on us getting our "Primarch" in the form of Szarekh then?
Well, I wouldn't say "no odds" but I would say we no doubt get something. Just what we get, exactly, is unknown. I mean, we did get a vague allusion to The Silent King, so maybe we do get him as a model.
In that case, will his rules be useful? Who knows, we can only wait and see. But once again, I would not personally get my hopes up, Necron rules tend to be fairly uninspiring, in general, outside a few notable exceptions (AKA, what tends to get played/built around). What would be neat is if The SIlent King made Triarch units more in line with the bonuses of Dynasty units, but again, I'd personally temper my expectations of something that useful.
I still have a few boxes of Lichguard/Pretorians that I haven't built, as I haven't made up my mind which is more useful or I'd want to use, because I haven't played much lately. I see some people going Sword and Board lately, so I might just do that, if I get around to them in the near future (unlikely), but I might just wait for our book to come so I can see if there is actually anything to influence the decision in any case.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: What a coincidence, I'm hoping for Admech vs Necrons for the same reason.
I should have kept a forgebane box for myself
Sisters vs Necrons would be nice too, but I think I prefer Ad Mech. I'm a sucker for Dune and pulp fiction sci-fi cheese.
Admech is already confirmed with Chaos and Imperial Knights and Demons
Well crap :(
Didn't chaos already receive a book though?
They did for chaos marines(which btw rules out emperor's children being vs necrons. They already got theirs) but as said chaos knights and daemons along with imperial knights and ad mech are in next month. What's coming may and june is up to anyone's guess but seeing we know war of spider name now it's fairly safe to say that's may rather than june which could hint at necrons in may. If may is thus deathwatch vs necrons would likely leave sisters vs death guard in june and custoden/sister of silence alliance in either one of the two books.
CthuluIsSpy wrote: What a coincidence, I'm hoping for Admech vs Necrons for the same reason.
I should have kept a forgebane box for myself
Sisters vs Necrons would be nice too, but I think I prefer Ad Mech. I'm a sucker for Dune and pulp fiction sci-fi cheese.
Admech is already confirmed with Chaos and Imperial Knights and Demons
Well crap :(
Didn't chaos already receive a book though?
They did for chaos marines(which btw rules out emperor's children being vs necrons. They already got theirs) but as said chaos knights and daemons along with imperial knights and ad mech are in next month. What's coming may and june is up to anyone's guess but seeing we know war of spider name now it's fairly safe to say that's may rather than june which could hint at necrons in may. If may is thus deathwatch vs necrons would likely leave sisters vs death guard in june and custoden/sister of silence alliance in either one of the two books.
True, but we know that Fabulous Bile is in War of the Spider, so regular old Chaos is getting something in there too, even if it's just him. We're the only xenos left (unless we count Harelquinns), so we have to be versus Deathwatch.
Not to be Mr Psychic Awakening Doomsayer, but has anyone else seen the rules for Ghaz?
how the hell do we deal with a guy that can fairly easily delete a unit per phase on his todd and we physically cant do the standard "Obliterate with Extreme Prejudice, even if your other stuff lives" approach with have to things like Daemon Primarchs
Unless he gets special rules, he is pretty slow. His own great waagh doesnt apply to him, because he isnt infantry. So no advance and charge. He cant be jumped and he cant ride in a transport, because he isnt infantry. So it takes him at least two turns to get across the battlefield. Which gives us time to shoot him.
p5freak wrote: Unless he gets special rules, he is pretty slow. His own great waagh doesnt apply to him, because he isnt infantry. So no advance and charge. He cant be jumped and he cant ride in a transport, because he isnt infantry. So it takes him at least two turns to get across the battlefield. Which gives us time to shoot him.
Except he can still be teleported in, because the tellyporta strat doesn't have restrictions on types.
So you actually have 1 turn before he gets to the front lines.
The great WAAGH strat is probably going to be FAQ'd. I think the writers forgot that Ghaz isn't infantry anymore.
IHateNids wrote: Not to be Mr Psychic Awakening Doomsayer, but has anyone else seen the rules for Ghaz?
how the hell do we deal with a guy that can fairly easily delete a unit per phase on his todd and we physically cant do the standard "Obliterate with Extreme Prejudice, even if your other stuff lives" approach with have to things like Daemon Primarchs
He's 2+ 4++ with T7, doing 4 wounds is easy with a doomsday cannon or a couple of (heavy) gauss cannons, just spread it out over multiple turns and delete other units while he swings his pathetic 5-6 attacks and fires a couple of heavy bolters, chump-block him with a unit of Immortals. It's like T8 3+/3++ and 24 wounds, that took more than one shooting phase to kill as well. Ork players are whining that he is terrible, a Necron player whining he is unstoppable. Guess GW did their job well on this one. I'd wager teleporting him in will be the most viable way to run him, but he doesn't get +1 to Movement/Advance/Charge so it's not as surefire as the +1/+1/+1 Klan although he can go in the same detachment. He's 270-285 pts, I don't think people will run him except because he's an amazing model, that's 30 Shoota Boyz and a cheapo Warboss. He has M7 instead of M5 so he doesn't need advance and charge as much as a footboss does, but it's still less mobile than a Warboss.
Except he can still be teleported in, because the tellyporta strat doesn't have restrictions on types.
So you actually have 1 turn before he gets to the front lines.
Which also means he does nothing T1. It costs 2CP, and he needs to roll a 9 on the charge.
Except he can still be teleported in, because the tellyporta strat doesn't have restrictions on types. So you actually have 1 turn before he gets to the front lines.
Which also means he does nothing T1. It costs 2CP, and he needs to roll a 9 on the charge.
He gets rerolls. Orks have a good chance of getting those 9" charges because of 'ere we go.
That said, we do have options to deal with him.
Wraiths and shieldguard can lock him in combat for a while due to their invuls. If he leaves combat that's basically free 4 wounds on him as he'll be open to getting shot.
C'tan deal damage in the movement phase, meaning that an army with C'tan can deal an extra 4 wounds a turn. C'tan also have invuls and can explode, so you can use one as a tarpit / kamikaze if you want.
DDAs and HGC probably won't perform that great against him because of his 4+ invul and his 4 wound rule, so you might not want to waste too much firepower against him. Gauss cannons on destroyers would be a waste because of his 4 wound limit. Gauss Blasters and gauss cannons on Annihilation barges, oddly enough, seem to be the best weapon loadouts against him because you won't waste that much AP with the blasters (-2 reduces 2+ save to 4+, and you aren't going to waste too much damage against him), and probably won't waste that much with annihilation barges either.
Except he can still be teleported in, because the tellyporta strat doesn't have restrictions on types.
So you actually have 1 turn before he gets to the front lines.
Which also means he does nothing T1. It costs 2CP, and he needs to roll a 9 on the charge.
He gets rerolls. Orks have a good chance of getting those 9" charges because of 'ere we go.
That said, we do have options to deal with him.
Wraiths and shieldguard can lock him in combat for a while due to their invuls.
If he leaves combat that's basically free 4 wounds on him as he'll be open to getting shot.
C'tan deal damage in the movement phase, meaning that an army with C'tan can deal an extra 4 wounds a turn. C'tan also have invuls and can explode, so you can use one as a tarpit / kamikaze if you want.
DDAs and HGC probably won't perform that great against him because of his 4+ invul and his 4 wound rule, so you might not want to waste too much firepower against him. Gauss cannons on destroyers would be a waste because of his 4 wound limit. Gauss Blasters and gauss cannons on Annihilation barges, oddly enough, seem to be the best weapon loadouts against him because you won't waste that much AP with the blasters (-2 reduces 2+ save to 4+, and you aren't going to waste too much damage against him), and probably won't waste that much with annihilation barges either.
Shoot 4 wounds off him, charge with wraiths, that's another 4 wounds (hopefully), then shoot him some more next turn. He's a bit of a beast, but the strategies for dealing with him are obvious.
My issue with it is that whichever unit you try and combat him with he will destroy without question, unless you get the charge to do the final 4 wounds
Also, with the banner grot's FNP and the possibility of a Painboy healing him up (Also the fact that I agree that his Great Waaagh! will likely be FAQ'd to include himself) I think it's going to be exceptionally easy to funnel into a one-model deathstar
but, I am also a bit of a cynic, so I am hopefully very wrong
IHateNids wrote: My issue with it is that whichever unit you try and combat him with he will destroy without question, unless you get the charge to do the final 4 wounds
Also, with the banner grot's FNP and the possibility of a Painboy healing him up (Also the fact that I agree that his Great Waaagh! will likely be FAQ'd to include himself) I think it's going to be exceptionally easy to funnel into a one-model deathstar
but, I am also a bit of a cynic, so I am hopefully very wrong
What unit is he going to destroy with 5 attacks? Charge in with two min-squads of Immortals and he can't shoot or charge in his next turn.
IHateNids wrote: My issue with it is that whichever unit you try and combat him with he will destroy without question, unless you get the charge to do the final 4 wounds
Also, with the banner grot's FNP and the possibility of a Painboy healing him up (Also the fact that I agree that his Great Waaagh! will likely be FAQ'd to include himself) I think it's going to be exceptionally easy to funnel into a one-model deathstar
but, I am also a bit of a cynic, so I am hopefully very wrong
What unit is he going to destroy with 5 attacks? Charge in with two min-squads of Immortals and he can't shoot or charge in his next turn.
Yep. Or wratihs, or lychguard. He's not gonna chew threw those inv saves. Honestly, he's just a big distraction carnifex.
There seems to be a massive lump of people forgetting Ork shooting is not inherently terrible anymore?
I dont think it would be hard for the ork version of mortars or lootas to clear off anything we could chaff Ghaz with and then throw him at something they want him to kill
And yes, Wraiths will be an issue for him with the 3++, but one failed save is a fully dead wraith considering it's flat 4 damage on that klaw, and he hits and wounds on 2s rerolling across his entire brackets
IHateNids wrote: Not to be Mr Psychic Awakening Doomsayer, but has anyone else seen the rules for Ghaz?
how the hell do we deal with a guy that can fairly easily delete a unit per phase on his todd and we physically cant do the standard "Obliterate with Extreme Prejudice, even if your other stuff lives" approach with have to things like Daemon Primarchs
He's 2+ 4++ with T7, doing 4 wounds is easy with a doomsday cannon or a couple of (heavy) gauss cannons, just spread it out over multiple turns and delete other units while he swings his pathetic 5-6 attacks and fires a couple of heavy bolters, chump-block him with a unit of Immortals. It's like T8 3+/3++ and 24 wounds, that took more than one shooting phase to kill as well. Ork players are whining that he is terrible, a Necron player whining he is unstoppable. Guess GW did their job well on this one. I'd wager teleporting him in will be the most viable way to run him, but he doesn't get +1 to Movement/Advance/Charge so it's not as surefire as the +1/+1/+1 Klan although he can go in the same detachment. He's 270-285 pts, I don't think people will run him except because he's an amazing model, that's 30 Shoota Boyz and a cheapo Warboss. He has M7 instead of M5 so he doesn't need advance and charge as much as a footboss does, but it's still less mobile than a Warboss.
You need to get rid of painboy though or you do 4 per turn minus d3 healed. Or get into melee. Or just ignore. Feed him with sacrificial units. Albeit trickier with necrons but there's not actually that many good targets for ghaz in necrons. He's not infantry killer and vehicles have QS vs flat 4 damage.
Honestly, he's not an enormous threat to most of our stuff. I'd focus on the ork gunline and just try to boxout Ghaz/kill his support. He's got 5 attacks right? He's hardly going to blend through your lines, and Quantum Shielding means he's not a huge threat to the vehicles either.
Take 4 wounds off him with shooting, then smash his support. He's a good beatstick, but he's hardly the new hotness we need to build around.
Apparently where Ghaz shines is against characters and monsters. Our characters and monsters aren't great, so we don't really have anything for him to excel against.
Yeah what ghaz enjoys smashing is high T high save low inv slow stuff with lots of wounds. He hates going against cheap chaff, high invs(3++ in particular) and generally having to face anything that's cheap.
For necrons bigger worry is buffs he generate but...well kill the buffed units and buffs aren't worry anymore.
He's good but thing is necrons don't have particularly good targets for him. 5 immortals if he hits and wounds with all isn't that impressive result for ~280 pts model
Ghaz is a slightly bigger threat to elite Infantry than is being stated here. He actually gains attacks as he is bracketed and being a Goff he has exploding 6's when he hits.
v0iddrgn wrote: Ghaz is a slightly bigger threat to elite Infantry than is being stated here. He actually gains attacks as he is bracketed and being a Goff he has exploding 6's when he hits.
If he is bracketed in melee he's about to be dead unless your opponent is doing evolved shenanigans, his S goes down from what I remember as well. I hope people bring some Goffs, I think I played against those once, Freebootas once or twice, sneaky ones once or twice, the rest of them a bazillion times each, often two or more of them at the same time.
v0iddrgn wrote: You're right his strength does go down to 10 from 14. That'll be a problem.
Wounds Doomsday Arks/C'tan on 3+ instead of 2+ Fair enough, I still think he's ignorable before he goes down to brackets and if he doesn't heal then he dies and if he heals he's not bracketed.
v0iddrgn wrote: Ghaz is a slightly bigger threat to elite Infantry than is being stated here. He actually gains attacks as he is bracketed and being a Goff he has exploding 6's when he hits.
So you don't bracket him. Ignore means ignore. Don't bother with him until you can actually kill him. And he only explodes if he's in goff detachment which is fairly uncompetive detachment. Plus only explodes like one time per round
Especially you ignore if you only can damage him in shooting due to him likely having painboy nearby to heal d3. 4 wound per turn, he heals d3, why bother?
He can't b healed by a painboy btw, hes not a bike or infantry. They need to burn cp on medisqig. I don't think hes a concern at 280~ plus makari is 50. Thats a lot of investment for a terrible buff character that is slow and can only kill small units.
Abby is more of a problem if I am honest and you don't see him ruining necrons time. He has more attacks and levels anything and has more mobility and on top of all that he has WAY better buff auras and is 100 pts less (factoring in makari) so I am not really bothered by him. What makes abby work is his buff. Ghaz is just as a voidable but he doesn't give amry wide rerolls or fearless. All his auras are available on cheaper HQ's. He's basically the definition of a distraction carnifex.
EDIT
BTW don't forget he cant move through building walls or scale levels lol. He also does flat 4 damage. So you can either ty him up with quantum shielding and use quantum deflection and laugh or put a forward screen in a ruin or up a level.
Red Corsair wrote: He can't b healed by a painboy btw, hes not a bike or infantry. They need to burn cp on medisqig. I don't think hes a concern at 280~ plus makari is 50. Thats a lot of investment for a terrible buff character that is slow and can only kill small units.
Abby is more of a problem if I am honest and you don't see him ruining necrons time. He has more attacks and levels anything and has more mobility and on top of all that he has WAY better buff auras and is 100 pts less (factoring in makari) so I am not really bothered by him. What makes abby work is his buff. Ghaz is just as a voidable but he doesn't give amry wide rerolls or fearless. All his auras are available on cheaper HQ's. He's basically the definition of a distraction carnifex.
EDIT
BTW don't forget he cant move through building walls or scale levels lol. He also does flat 4 damage. So you can either ty him up with quantum shielding and use quantum deflection and laugh or put a forward screen in a ruin or up a level.
MediSquiq is any goff character, FNP is Infantry/Bike. Makari is scarier than Ghaz, 110% going to tag two Immortal squads.
punisher357 wrote: Hmmmm....I must have wandered into the ork tactics page by mistake
“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.”
Red Corsair wrote: He can't b healed by a painboy btw, hes not a bike or infantry. They need to burn cp on medisqig. I don't think hes a concern at 280~ plus makari is 50. Thats a lot of investment for a terrible buff character that is slow and can only kill small units.
The stratagem is the point. 6+++ isn't that big. d3 wounds per back if you suffer only 4 per turn like vs necrons isn't that bad. Essentially makes ghaz invulnerable. But that's allright. Just don't bother shooting at it
Doubt makari will be used much either.6+++ isn't that hot.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
vict0988 wrote: MediSquiq is any goff character, FNP is Infantry/Bike. Makari is scarier than Ghaz, 110% going to tag two Immortal squads.
You mean makari will tie 2 squads? Only if necron player allows. Makari base isn't that big. You don't have to be b2b with your 2 squads.
Pyrothem wrote: Looks like we will be in the last book since we are not with the Spider.
So Harley, DeathWatch, Necrons and maybe Sisters in the last book right or am I missing anything?
No guarantee for no more double-features like with CSM showing up again with Bile, it could be another book other than Engine War and War of the Spider before we get our turn. I think Harley, Deathwatch, Necrons makes sense, add in Sisters and I'm afraid it's going to be cramped and we might only get something half-assed. Don't expect any changes to Necrons in the next 8 months between Corona, Engine War and War of the Spider, but this subject is fairly irrelevant to the topic of Necrons tactics. Being last we'd need a huge chunk of fluffy stuff for me to be satisfied. I still love my Necrons, but no massive upsets in terms of what our best units are despite being good for the health of the faction, hasn't made me super excited. Using Flayed Ones is fun, I still find them to be far from amazing. I fielded a Monolith the other day, it took 6 lascannons to deal 16 damage to it, 400 pts to get 225 pts in return does not feel good on the receiving end. I spent a CP to shoot with it at full capacity and had first turn so it got to shoot twice at BS3+, but boy is that still painfully average with its pitiful Movement and range.
Pyrothem wrote: Looks like we will be in the last book since we are not with the Spider.
So Harley, DeathWatch, Necrons and maybe Sisters in the last book right or am I missing anything?
Only ? in that is harleys. Will they get anything or not? Other than that yeah. Necrons, deathwatch and sisters for sure. No maybe's since GW flat out said they will get PA book.
Good for me. I get 2 of my armies in one book Can skip war of the spider.
Friend just sent me this, no idea on source. Could be fake obvs, but we had a similar leak confirming Engine War this way before it was revealed.
God I'd love Pariahs to come back.
News, possibly fake, not tactics.
I mean it's relevant to potential tactics if we get our anti psyker unit back. Also this place is hardly a hotbed of tactical chatter right now.
According to Valrak on YouTube, it was uploaded to Bolter & Chainsword, so it's a mirror of Engine War & War of The Spider so far.
However, he also seems sold on the idea that it's Deathwatch Harlies and Necrons all in one book, and that PA-Pariah is the last one, which leaves SoB without PA support.
Odds on having Pariah be a Necrons vs DW or SoB, and then a book 8 with the Harlies vs the other?
Also yes, I know it isnt tactics, but lets be fair, we need this because our tactics havent changed in months
There was a rumour ages ago that Pariahs would be coming back, but that it would be a character, not the full unit. Considering how similar they look to Lychguard as a unit, I can see this being the case.
Still, a new HQ is something I'd welcome into the army, as most of our current lot are underpowered taxes.
Automatically Appended Next Post: There was a rumour ages ago that Pariahs would be coming back, but that it would be a character, not the full unit. Considering how similar they look to Lychguard as a unit, I can see this being the case.
Still, a new HQ is something I'd welcome into the army, as most of our current lot are underpowered taxes.
I thought it was odd to name a PA book after a single faction. But now i realised there is greater good, saga of the beast, blood of baal, which are also named after a single faction, more or less.
IHateNids wrote: It wont be "Pariah" as a single word I dont think.
It'll be something like "Pariah's Call" or "Shadow of The Pariah" or something else equally tongue-in-cheek and 'grimdark'
I think it's going to be called not relevant to tactics threads, but you're as well-informed on the subject as I am, who is to guess what a piece of future content 3-12 months down the line is going to be called?
What video-games are you guys playing? Riot's autobattler has adopted a futuristic style, so it's more relevant than ever to a Necron tactics thread, not that it's actually relevant, but who's keeping track?
I also heard a rumour about Dakka that there is a section of the board specifically for revealing and discussing rumours, I've even confirmed the rumour, so it's more of a fact, go check it out, pretty cool. When Necrons get their PA rules can we create a new thread with 99% less homebrew rules and rumour-talk?
IHateNids wrote: It wont be "Pariah" as a single word I dont think.
It'll be something like "Pariah's Call" or "Shadow of The Pariah" or something else equally tongue-in-cheek and 'grimdark'
I think it's going to be called not relevant to tactics threads, but you're as well-informed on the subject as I am, who is to guess what a piece of future content 3-12 months down the line is going to be called?
What video-games are you guys playing? Riot's autobattler has adopted a futuristic style, so it's more relevant than ever to a Necron tactics thread, not that it's actually relevant, but who's keeping track?
I also heard a rumour about Dakka that there is a section of the board specifically for revealing and discussing rumours, I've even confirmed the rumour, so it's more of a fact, go check it out, pretty cool. When Necrons get their PA rules can we create a new thread with 99% less homebrew rules and rumour-talk?
Yeah lets get back to tactics talk.
What Necrons really need is a solid anti-psyker unit since our current psyker defence is limited. Something like the old Pariahs we used to have. Or maybe even a special character who is a pariah.
IHateNids wrote: It wont be "Pariah" as a single word I dont think.
It'll be something like "Pariah's Call" or "Shadow of The Pariah" or something else equally tongue-in-cheek and 'grimdark'
I think it's going to be called not relevant to tactics threads, but you're as well-informed on the subject as I am, who is to guess what a piece of future content 3-12 months down the line is going to be called?
What video-games are you guys playing? Riot's autobattler has adopted a futuristic style, so it's more relevant than ever to a Necron tactics thread, not that it's actually relevant, but who's keeping track?
I also heard a rumour about Dakka that there is a section of the board specifically for revealing and discussing rumours, I've even confirmed the rumour, so it's more of a fact, go check it out, pretty cool. When Necrons get their PA rules can we create a new thread with 99% less homebrew rules and rumour-talk?
Yeah lets get back to tactics talk.
What Necrons really need is a solid anti-psyker unit since our current psyker defence is limited. Something like the old Pariahs we used to have. Or maybe even a special character who is a pariah.
Nope, wish-listing for better anti-psyker tools is not relevant. Saying that Necrons are vulnerable to psychic powers is, saying how you know how to combat such armies despite or that it's no big problem is relevant. Discussion of how good units with gloom prisms are or aren't also is. This isn't super hard. I'll try to crusade against this type of discussion until we start a new thread and then we can hopefully all be free of it and I won't have to police it and you won't have to deal with me trying to police a thread with a horrible history of sticking to the topic. This is not Necrons general.
True.
On topic then. Has anyone tried to move to heavy Destroyers for their main anti tank? You would think that kind of price drop would make it a real option but I have never tried it as I have seen the ease other armies pop regular D's even at range out of line of sight.
Pyrothem wrote: True.
On topic then. Has anyone tried to move to heavy Destroyers for their main anti tank? You would think that kind of price drop would make it a real option but I have never tried it as I have seen the ease other armies pop regular D's even at range out of line of sight.
You hit the nail on the head. They're easily erased from the board. Especially since they only have 36 inches of range. It's not that hard for other units to reach out and smoke'em. Jump shoot jump was a great tactic for them, alas it faded away into days of old.
I personally feel that DDArk is still the best AT and anti-monster we currently have. Maybe there's something better FW, but I doubt it.
They really need to retune the annihilation barge to help out in this area. It's stuck in this weird halfway limbo point of "not very useful, but almost"
Any big Tesla guns are worthless. It has no real targets. A lot of this is just a very poorly written Dex.
I have a sneaking suspicion that what we will get will be C'Tan focused with the big point drop they got in CA making them fun but not really useable in a non narrative game.
Pyrothem wrote: Any big Tesla guns are worthless. It has no real targets. A lot of this is just a very poorly written Dex.
I have a sneaking suspicion that what we will get will be C'Tan focused with the big point drop they got in CA making them fun but not really useable in a non narrative game.
C'tan are already competitive, they were used by several people at the Las Vegas Open.
Yeah, C'tan are actually pretty good. As long as you have a screen for them and don't let them get into combat against large units or anything that can survive the charge (4+ invul sucks, but they've always had that) a player should get some mileage out of it.
C'tan also allows you to deal damage in the movement phase, which helps against Ghaz.
However, he also seems sold on the idea that it's Deathwatch Harlies and Necrons all in one book, and that PA-Pariah is the last one, which leaves SoB without PA support.
Which we can already bunk 100% certainly. SOB get PA rules. That's confirmed by GW. Who knows that better. GW or Valrak?
Pyrothem wrote: True.
On topic then. Has anyone tried to move to heavy Destroyers for their main anti tank? You would think that kind of price drop would make it a real option but I have never tried it as I have seen the ease other armies pop regular D's even at range out of line of sight.
You hit the nail on the head. They're easily erased from the board. Especially since they only have 36 inches of range. It's not that hard for other units to reach out and smoke'em. Jump shoot jump was a great tactic for them, alas it faded away into days of old.
I personally feel that DDArk is still the best AT and anti-monster we currently have. Maybe there's something better FW, but I doubt it.
They really need to retune the annihilation barge to help out in this area. It's stuck in this weird halfway limbo point of "not very useful, but almost"
36" is plenty. For non LOS ignoring weapons any further than that is not something you can rely as LOS will be bigger issue.
They beat the flyers easily in utility. Only issue is they are expensive as hell in euro's.
And you can only have 3 dda. 2 don't average leman russ dead so even 3 are short. You need more AT. Destroyer squad good but what then? It's flyers or heavy destroyers. Flyers bad at that and are hardly tougher and far harder to hide
But I would ask, why are we setting the bar so low? Leman Russes aren’t what’s wrecking the meta. You need a/some combined solution that solves 28 wound, T8 models.
But I would ask, why are we setting the bar so low? Leman Russes aren’t what’s wrecking the meta. You need a/some combined solution that solves 28 wound, T8 models.
This ain’t yo grandpa’s meta (6th)!
Silly amounts of Immortals is the right answer. With Methodical Destruction it's super easy to pop a Knight a turn.
But I would ask, why are we setting the bar so low? Leman Russes aren’t what’s wrecking the meta. You need a/some combined solution that solves 28 wound, T8 models.
This ain’t yo grandpa’s meta (6th)!
Silly amounts of Immortals is the right answer. With Methodical Destruction it's super easy to pop a Knight a turn.
60 Tesla Immortals with +2 to hit and rerolling 1s to hit, do by my clculations 28.5 wounds on T8/3+
That's Imotekh and 3 overlords and 2 stratagems (3CP) and stalker to pull off. And those 60 32mm bases have to fit into range.
However, he also seems sold on the idea that it's Deathwatch Harlies and Necrons all in one book, and that PA-Pariah is the last one, which leaves SoB without PA support.
Which we can already bunk 100% certainly. SOB get PA rules. That's confirmed by GW. Who knows that better. GW or Valrak?
Thats kinda my point....
it lends weight to either 2 more books, or 4 in a single book.
As to H.Des as prime AT selection, I've seen them used not too badly in that role, but they do suffer a little bit from people wanting them dead. Given they're no more survivable than regular destroyers and capped at a unit of 3, I have been finding them not worth it. Granmted, i have yet to try them since they came down in points, but that doesnt change how easy they die....
Folks keep acting like other things in this edition are durable lol. Almost every other option in the book that isn't a character will die turn 1 verse a solid army/player.
HD don't really have a durability problem at IMO. You can easily get them a 2+ save and hide them turn 1. They can even grab a 5++ if you like crypteks (I don't). They also don't get boned for moving like DDA's whos main weapon becomes a garbage battle canon.
But the bigger question is why on earth do folks keep comparing the two like it's either or? Run both if you own the models. I personally own 9 heavy D's and 2 DDA's, I have 3 doom scythes but they easily lost out to HD's now. It was a debate back when they were dead even on points, now I only run planes for fun. But there is no real reason other then flavor why I would feel pressured to not run one over the other in regard to DDA's and Heavy D's, they both work incredibly well and especially in concert with each other since it's a real PITA for your opponent to mitigate the crippling fire you are going to deliver.
I suppose if I REALLY had to choose one over the other it would depend on the rest of my army. DDA's actually do more for me when they get into gaus range, but if my list is rocking tesla immortals and/or tomb blades I really don't need the anti infantry and will prefer the HD's because they are much more reliable AT that can hide and thanks to a 10" move with fly and infantry keyword are almost always getting the drop and with MWBD they pretty much auto hit something 3 times, I cannot tell you how nice it is to know I can pretty much auto hit something with 3 heavy gaus canons and since I usually rock a lord I am wounding more often then not as well.
But I'll reiterate, there is no reason why DDA's and HD's should be competing. Personally I find the more compelling question is should we bother with troops currently. My last tournament list had zero troops and I did incredibly well maximizing on mobile and long range units with fly. Our army only really needs a couple CP anyway.
But I would ask, why are we setting the bar so low? Leman Russes aren’t what’s wrecking the meta. You need a/some combined solution that solves 28 wound, T8 models.
This ain’t yo grandpa’s meta (6th)!
Silly amounts of Immortals is the right answer. With Methodical Destruction it's super easy to pop a Knight a turn.
60 Tesla Immortals with +2 to hit and rerolling 1s to hit, do by my clculations 28.5 wounds on T8/3+
That's Imotekh and 3 overlords and 2 stratagems (3CP) and stalker to pull off. And those 60 32mm bases have to fit into range.
And then the stalker chips in 3 wounds too.
A DDA and a moving Triarch Stalker do 4,34 damage, now you need another 24 wounds. That's 40 MWBD Immortals and 5 non-MWBD Immortals.
A Heavy Destroyer shooting at a target of Methodical Destruction with 3+/4++ does 1,134 unsaved damage.
2,57 MWBD Immortals shooting at a target of Methodical Destruction with 3+/4++ does 1,005 unsaved damage.
A Heavy Destroy shooting at 30 Ork Boyz does 0,648 unsaved damage.
3 MWBD Immortals shooting at 30 Ork Boyz does 5,237 unsaved damage.
In this scenario, I think it's fair to ignore the cost of MWBD and treat any HQs as CP tax because they also perform the role of melee combatants.
Yes, your anti-tank gun is slightly more pts-effective against Knights, my anti-horde gun is many times more effective at killing hordes than Heavy Destroyers relative to how good Heavy Destroyers are at shooting Knights. As you showed Immortals can get the job done, if my opponent is using their Castellan/Lord of Skulls defensively enough that I cannot reach them then I will target whatever is out on the field taking objectives or I'll win the game on objectives.
If you take a Lord the whole thing becomes a lot more effective, but that applies to both Heavy Destroyers and Immortals. The argument for Heavy Destroyers has nothing to do with being able to do 28 wounds/turn to a T8 unit, unless you are taking a lot of S4/S7 weapons then it's very doable, the argument would be Repulsors, Centurions and Aggressors. I still haven't created or tested a competitive list with Heavy Destroyers, I do think they are quite good. The benefit of having 0 multi-wound units except for characters and Quantum Shielded units is not to be understated, I think I might try a list without DDAs as my first bet on a good Heavy Destroyer spam list, it also depends on whether you have to worry about Gang Busters in which case you wouldn't want Destoyers or Wraiths if you take 3x3 Heavy Destroyers.
Red Corsair wrote: Folks keep acting like other things in this edition are durable lol. Almost every other option in the book that isn't a character will die turn 1 verse a solid army/player.
HD don't really have a durability problem at IMO. You can easily get them a 2+ save and hide them turn 1. They can even grab a 5++ if you like crypteks (I don't). They also don't get boned for moving like DDA's whos main weapon becomes a garbage battle canon.
But the bigger question is why on earth do folks keep comparing the two like it's either or? Run both if you own the models. I personally own 9 heavy D's and 2 DDA's, I have 3 doom scythes but they easily lost out to HD's now. It was a debate back when they were dead even on points, now I only run planes for fun. But there is no real reason other then flavor why I would feel pressured to not run one over the other in regard to DDA's and Heavy D's, they both work incredibly well and especially in concert with each other since it's a real PITA for your opponent to mitigate the crippling fire you are going to deliver.
I suppose if I REALLY had to choose one over the other it would depend on the rest of my army. DDA's actually do more for me when they get into gaus range, but if my list is rocking tesla immortals and/or tomb blades I really don't need the anti infantry and will prefer the HD's because they are much more reliable AT that can hide and thanks to a 10" move with fly and infantry keyword are almost always getting the drop and with MWBD they pretty much auto hit something 3 times, I cannot tell you how nice it is to know I can pretty much auto hit something with 3 heavy gaus canons and since I usually rock a lord I am wounding more often then not as well.
But I'll reiterate, there is no reason why DDA's and HD's should be competing. Personally I find the more compelling question is should we bother with troops currently. My last tournament list had zero troops and I did incredibly well maximizing on mobile and long range units with fly. Our army only really needs a couple CP anyway.
I’m not saying it’s either/or. In fact, my point was to illustrate that people should be focusing on solving a specific (and relevant) problem: not just playing “how many wounds do these cause” on an individual basis.
As an example, if we know that 3 DDAs alone can’t kill an IK (assuming that’s a relevant problem for your strategy to win games), you may need to supplement with some additional AT.
Where the comparisons between AT platforms become relevant is deciding on whether it should be 3 DDAs + X HDs, or Y HDs as primary + Z DDAs to fill the gap.
JNAProductions wrote: 2 DDA 7 shots
14/3 hits (49/9 with RR1s)
28/9 wounds (98/27)
No saves allowed
Times 3.5 for damage, for...
98/9 or about 11 points of damage without RR1s, close to 13 with.
Add a single CP to reroll a poor damage roll or number of shots, and two DDAs should be able to obliterate a Russ.
That algorithm misses variance. Good rolls don't balance bad rolls because there's wound cap. vs russ average damage for 1 dda is 5.14, chance of 0 damage 20.06%m chance of 1 shotting 11.52%. This fairly close to accurate with hundred's of thousands of simulations.
2x5.14=10.28
That way to calculate damage would give 31 damage vs baneblade for pylon yet its only 57% chance of 1 shotting. More realistic average damage is 19
However, he also seems sold on the idea that it's Deathwatch Harlies and Necrons all in one book, and that PA-Pariah is the last one, which leaves SoB without PA support.
Which we can already bunk 100% certainly. SOB get PA rules. That's confirmed by GW. Who knows that better. GW or Valrak?
Thats kinda my point....
it lends weight to either 2 more books, or 4 in a single book.
As to H.Des as prime AT selection, I've seen them used not too badly in that role, but they do suffer a little bit from people wanting them dead. Given they're no more survivable than regular destroyers and capped at a unit of 3, I have been finding them not worth it. Granmted, i have yet to try them since they came down in points, but that doesnt change how easy they die....
4 in single book being way more likely than 2 books with 2 factions. Engine got 4, war of spider 4+small tiny one.
How many 2 faction books there been? Even PA1 had 2+ynnari
Red Corsair wrote: Folks keep acting like other things in this edition are durable lol. Almost every other option in the book that isn't a character will die turn 1 verse a solid army/player.
HD don't really have a durability problem at IMO. You can easily get them a 2+ save and hide them turn 1. They can even grab a 5++ if you like crypteks (I don't). They also don't get boned for moving like DDA's whos main weapon becomes a garbage battle canon.
But the bigger question is why on earth do folks keep comparing the two like it's either or? Run both if you own the models. I personally own 9 heavy D's and 2 DDA's, I have 3 doom scythes but they easily lost out to HD's now. It was a debate back when they were dead even on points, now I only run planes for fun. But there is no real reason other then flavor why I would feel pressured to not run one over the other in regard to DDA's and Heavy D's, they both work incredibly well and especially in concert with each other since it's a real PITA for your opponent to mitigate the crippling fire you are going to deliver.
I suppose if I REALLY had to choose one over the other it would depend on the rest of my army. DDA's actually do more for me when they get into gaus range, but if my list is rocking tesla immortals and/or tomb blades I really don't need the anti infantry and will prefer the HD's because they are much more reliable AT that can hide and thanks to a 10" move with fly and infantry keyword are almost always getting the drop and with MWBD they pretty much auto hit something 3 times, I cannot tell you how nice it is to know I can pretty much auto hit something with 3 heavy gaus canons and since I usually rock a lord I am wounding more often then not as well.
But I'll reiterate, there is no reason why DDA's and HD's should be competing. Personally I find the more compelling question is should we bother with troops currently. My last tournament list had zero troops and I did incredibly well maximizing on mobile and long range units with fly. Our army only really needs a couple CP anyway.
I’m not saying it’s either/or. In fact, my point was to illustrate that people should be focusing on solving a specific (and relevant) problem: not just playing “how many wounds do these cause” on an individual basis.
As an example, if we know that 3 DDAs alone can’t kill an IK (assuming that’s a relevant problem for your strategy to win games), you may need to supplement with some additional AT.
Where the comparisons between AT platforms become relevant is deciding on whether it should be 3 DDAs + X HDs, or Y HDs as primary + Z DDAs to fill the gap.
Sorry, I didn't mean to lump you in. It was just easier being general as what I was addressing was more important. Honestly, I think those two are clearly the front runners for long ranged AT. Not that we have a ton of alternatives, but the ratio between how many of either you field is totally dependent on the rest of your list. I really was enjoying fielding destroyers for a while which is why I have so many ( I have 12 normal plus the 9 heavy) and it was because I was loading up on flying units. It's a funny one too, folks continue to act as though they are fragile, but they are honestly way more durable then immortals. And again, Necrons really don't require many CP if any. The more interesting debate is whether to bother with troops at all, at least IMO.
What is the math regarding a unit of destroyers hammering a suped-up squad of GK paladins? Is that a worthwhile use of them?
Also, curious. Is MWBD worth throwing onto a destroyer unit that will be getting EP?
iGuy91 wrote: What is the math regarding a unit of destroyers hammering a suped-up squad of GK paladins? Is that a worthwhile use of them?
Also, curious. Is MWBD worth throwing onto a destroyer unit that will be getting EP?
Redoubtable Defence (-1 D), Sanctuary (4++) and Armoured Resilience (-1 to wound) or is there something else?
*18 shots
*16 hits
*10,67 wounds
*5,33 unsaved wounds
*Complicated maths lead to roughly 2 dead
Destroyers going from +1 to +2 to hit multiplies damage output by 0,97, going from +0 to +1 multiplies damage by 1,06, going from -1 to +0 multiplies damage by 1,33, going from -2 to -1 multiplies damage by 1,5, going from -3 to -2 multiplies damage by 2.
iGuy91 wrote: What is the math regarding a unit of destroyers hammering a suped-up squad of GK paladins? Is that a worthwhile use of them?
Also, curious. Is MWBD worth throwing onto a destroyer unit that will be getting EP?
Redoubtable Defence (-1 D), Sanctuary (4++) and Armoured Resilience (-1 to wound) or is there something else?
*18 shots
*16 hits
*10,67 wounds
*5,33 unsaved wounds
*Complicated maths lead to roughly 2 dead
Destroyers going from +1 to +2 to hit multiplies damage output by 0,97, going from +0 to +1 multiplies damage by 1,06, going from -1 to +0 multiplies damage by 1,33, going from -2 to -1 multiplies damage by 1,5, going from -3 to -2 multiplies damage by 2.
34/36, you have to re-roll your "failed" hit rolls of 2.
Oh damn, really? It's not a "may" or "can"?
That's some hot malarky there.
Also, if they don't use the -1 Wound Power, they still have Transhuman Physiology, which makes any wounds of 1-3 automatically fail, so you're never wounding them on 3+ if the GK player doesn't want you to.
"Re-roll failed hit and wound rolls for that unit until the end of the phase." Nothing less, nothing more.
Transhuman Physiology actually makes Destroyers better if your opponent is also using the -1 to wound power since it allows you to re-roll the "successful" wounds that won't wound after modifiers since with the Stratagem they fail before and after modifiers not just after.
vict0988 wrote: "Re-roll failed hit and wound rolls for that unit until the end of the phase." Nothing less, nothing more.
Transhuman Physiology actually makes Destroyers better if your opponent is also using the -1 to wound power since it allows you to re-roll the "successful" wounds that won't wound after modifiers since with the Stratagem they fail before and after modifiers not just after.
No opponent is gonna use both-they both take you from a 3+ to a 4+ to-wound, and nothing more, so it's one or the other.
vict0988 wrote: "Re-roll failed hit and wound rolls for that unit until the end of the phase." Nothing less, nothing more.
Transhuman Physiology actually makes Destroyers better if your opponent is also using the -1 to wound power since it allows you to re-roll the "successful" wounds that won't wound after modifiers since with the Stratagem they fail before and after modifiers not just after.
No opponent is gonna use both-they both take you from a 3+ to a 4+ to-wound, and nothing more, so it's one or the other.
My friend used both Transhuman Physiology AND the -1 to my wound rolls power to push my wound rolls up to 5+ before. Is this not allowed?
vict0988 wrote: "Re-roll failed hit and wound rolls for that unit until the end of the phase." Nothing less, nothing more.
Transhuman Physiology actually makes Destroyers better if your opponent is also using the -1 to wound power since it allows you to re-roll the "successful" wounds that won't wound after modifiers since with the Stratagem they fail before and after modifiers not just after.
No opponent is gonna use both-they both take you from a 3+ to a 4+ to-wound, and nothing more, so it's one or the other.
My friend used both Transhuman Physiology AND the -1 to my wound rolls power to push my wound rolls up to 5+ before. Is this not allowed?
No, that's now how they interact. Transhuman Strat affects rolls pre-modifiers, it doesn't turn a modified roll of 3 into a fail if it was originally a successful 4.
You lost me. The example isn't with my Destroyers but with Impaler Cannons. He used Transhuman to push them from wounding on 2's to wounding on 4's and then the -1 wound power kicked in after that pushing successful wounds to a 5+. No rerolls were available at the time.
v0iddrgn wrote: You lost me. The example isn't with my Destroyers but with Impaler Cannons. He used Transhuman to push them from wounding on 2's to wounding on 4's and then the -1 wound power kicked in after that pushing successful wounds to a 5+. No rerolls were available at the time.
Transhuman Physiology makes unmodified 1s, 2s, and 3s fail.
So, let's say you get 6 wound rolls. You roll 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6. You would then remove the 1, 2, and 3 immediately, due to Transhuman Physiology-they just fail, no modifiers allowed. You'd then look at the remaining dice, apply modifiers as appropriate, and check S vs. T.
v0iddrgn wrote: You lost me. The example isn't with my Destroyers but with Impaler Cannons. He used Transhuman to push them from wounding on 2's to wounding on 4's and then the -1 wound power kicked in after that pushing successful wounds to a 5+. No rerolls were available at the time.
Transhuman Physiology makes unmodified 1s, 2s, and 3s fail.
So, let's say you get 6 wound rolls. You roll 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6. You would then remove the 1, 2, and 3 immediately, due to Transhuman Physiology-they just fail, no modifiers allowed. You'd then look at the remaining dice, apply modifiers as appropriate, and check S vs. T.
So, he did it correctly pushing my successful wounds from 2+ to 5+ with the combination of those two things since the modifier comes AFTER Transhuman.
v0iddrgn wrote: You lost me. The example isn't with my Destroyers but with Impaler Cannons. He used Transhuman to push them from wounding on 2's to wounding on 4's and then the -1 wound power kicked in after that pushing successful wounds to a 5+. No rerolls were available at the time.
Transhuman Physiology makes unmodified 1s, 2s, and 3s fail.
So, let's say you get 6 wound rolls. You roll 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6. You would then remove the 1, 2, and 3 immediately, due to Transhuman Physiology-they just fail, no modifiers allowed. You'd then look at the remaining dice, apply modifiers as appropriate, and check S vs. T.
So, he did it correctly pushing my successful wounds from 2+ to 5+ with the combination of those two things since the modifier comes AFTER Transhuman.
No.
You remove any dice showing 1-3. That's what Transhuman does-once that's done, it has no more effect.
A modified 3 is unaffected by Transhuman Physiology, provided it came from a 4 or higher on die.
v0iddrgn wrote: You lost me. The example isn't with my Destroyers but with Impaler Cannons. He used Transhuman to push them from wounding on 2's to wounding on 4's and then the -1 wound power kicked in after that pushing successful wounds to a 5+. No rerolls were available at the time.
Transhuman Physiology makes unmodified 1s, 2s, and 3s fail.
So, let's say you get 6 wound rolls. You roll 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6. You would then remove the 1, 2, and 3 immediately, due to Transhuman Physiology-they just fail, no modifiers allowed. You'd then look at the remaining dice, apply modifiers as appropriate, and check S vs. T.
So, he did it correctly pushing my successful wounds from 2+ to 5+ with the combination of those two things since the modifier comes AFTER Transhuman.
No.
You remove any dice showing 1-3. That's what Transhuman does-once that's done, it has no more effect.
A modified 3 is unaffected by Transhuman Physiology, provided it came from a 4 or higher on die.
What about any 4's rolled? Are they fails since the -1 to wound power is in effect?
v0iddrgn wrote: You lost me. The example isn't with my Destroyers but with Impaler Cannons. He used Transhuman to push them from wounding on 2's to wounding on 4's and then the -1 wound power kicked in after that pushing successful wounds to a 5+. No rerolls were available at the time.
Transhuman Physiology makes unmodified 1s, 2s, and 3s fail.
So, let's say you get 6 wound rolls. You roll 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6. You would then remove the 1, 2, and 3 immediately, due to Transhuman Physiology-they just fail, no modifiers allowed. You'd then look at the remaining dice, apply modifiers as appropriate, and check S vs. T.
So, he did it correctly pushing my successful wounds from 2+ to 5+ with the combination of those two things since the modifier comes AFTER Transhuman.
No.
You remove any dice showing 1-3. That's what Transhuman does-once that's done, it has no more effect.
A modified 3 is unaffected by Transhuman Physiology, provided it came from a 4 or higher on die.
What about any 4's rolled? Are they fails since the -1 to wound power is in effect?
If you have a Strength greater than their Toughness, no.
Natural 1s, 2s, and 3s get removed. Then everything else proceeds normally.
v0iddrgn wrote: You lost me. The example isn't with my Destroyers but with Impaler Cannons. He used Transhuman to push them from wounding on 2's to wounding on 4's and then the -1 wound power kicked in after that pushing successful wounds to a 5+. No rerolls were available at the time.
Transhuman Physiology makes unmodified 1s, 2s, and 3s fail.
So, let's say you get 6 wound rolls. You roll 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6. You would then remove the 1, 2, and 3 immediately, due to Transhuman Physiology-they just fail, no modifiers allowed. You'd then look at the remaining dice, apply modifiers as appropriate, and check S vs. T.
So, he did it correctly pushing my successful wounds from 2+ to 5+ with the combination of those two things since the modifier comes AFTER Transhuman.
No.
You remove any dice showing 1-3. That's what Transhuman does-once that's done, it has no more effect.
A modified 3 is unaffected by Transhuman Physiology, provided it came from a 4 or higher on die.
What about any 4's rolled? Are they fails since the -1 to wound power is in effect?
If you have a Strength greater than their Toughness, no.
Natural 1s, 2s, and 3s get removed. Then everything else proceeds normally.
Re-rolls first of all, just making sure nobody reading this gets the wrong idea.
After reviewing them both I see no resean why not.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Modifiers happen AFTER everything and are applied to the final result, meaning Transhuman removes 1's-3's then Armoured Resilience applies the -1 to the roll, thus Doomsday Cannon's go from wounding on 2+ to wounding on 5+.
Modifiers happen AFTER everything and are applied to the final result, meaning Transhuman removes 1's-3's then Armoured Resilience applies the -1 to the roll, thus Doomsday Cannon's go from wounding on 2+ to wounding on 5+.
This is not how its played. Transhuman removes unmodified 1s-3s. A DDA usually wounds infantry on 2+ with its cannon. Thus, a roll of 3 is required to wound, because of armoured resilience -1 to wound. But, because there arent any 3s anymore, only whats left wounds infantry, which is 4s-6s.
2. Wound Roll: If an attack scores
a hit, you will then need to roll
another dice to see if the attack
successfully wounds the target.
The roll required is determined
by comparing the attacking
weapon’s Strength characteristic
with the target’s Toughness
characteristic, as shown on the
following table:
Is the Strength
TWICE (or more)
than the Toughness?
After reviewing them both I see no resean why not.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Modifiers happen AFTER everything and are applied to the final result, meaning Transhuman removes 1's-3's then Armoured Resilience applies the -1 to the roll, thus Doomsday Cannon's go from wounding on 2+ to wounding on 5+.
Are you trolling?
"Use this Stratagem when a GREY KNIGHTS unit from your army that is not a VEHICLE or a SERVITOR is chosen as a target for an attack. Until the end of the phase, when resolving an attack made against that unit, an unmodified wound roll of 1-3 always fails, irrespective of any abilities that the weapon or the model making that attack may have."
"Until the end of the phase, when resolving an attack made against that unit, an unmodified wound roll of 1-3 always fails, irrespective of any abilities that the weapon or the model making that attack may have."
"an unmodified wound roll of 1-3 always fails"
"an unmodified"
"unmodified"
If you apply a -1 to a 4 that turns it into a 3 then it's a modified 3 and an unmodified 4.
v0iddrgn wrote: You are wrong. It's in the designer's commentary that they stack the way I stated earlier.
What part of the designers' commentary?
Q: If a rule states that an ability triggers on, for example, ‘hit rolls of 6+’, does this refer to the result of the dice rolls before or after modifiers are applied? A: It refers to the final result, after re-rolls and modifiers (if any) have been applied.
The only exception to this would be abilities that specifically state, for example, ‘unmodified hit rolls of 6’, or ‘hit rolls of 6 before modifiers are applied.’
Hi people ! I was wondering what was our best way to deal with T7+ and Sv2+ Monsters / Vehicles beside doom scythes (I already have 3) and DDA (I already have 3).
I am asking this because lately I've been mostly playing my Imp. Knights and my SW, but I don't want my 'crons to collect dust (they are the first army with which I was actually competent for the first time back in 6ed). Yet, I mostly play against Daemons (Bloodthirsters and DP all across the board) and Astra Militarum (Russ heavy).
So I need to devise a tactic to deal with their heavy hitters. Sadly, tesla guns aren't really useful against them and we lost our good old gauss rule back in 7th ed.
Khornate25 wrote: Hi people ! I was wondering what was our best way to deal with T7+ and Sv2+ Monsters / Vehicles beside doom scythes (I already have 3) and DDA (I already have 3).
I am asking this because lately I've been mostly playing my Imp. Knights and my SW, but I don't want my 'crons to collect dust (they are the first army with which I was actually competent for the first time back in 6ed). Yet, I mostly play against Daemons (Bloodthirsters and DP all across the board) and Astra Militarum (Russ heavy).
So I need to devise a tactic to deal with their heavy hitters. Sadly, tesla guns aren't really useful against them and we lost our good old gauss rule back in 7th ed.
What would you recommend me to use ?
I think you might need to read your opponent's datasheets, Bloodthirsters have a 3+ Sv and they are useless as far as I am aware, easy to kill with every weapon in our roster, Russes are also 3+ Sv but they are T8 which makes them much harder to kill with S4 but they are useless in melee. If you bring 3xDDA you shouldn't worry about Bloodthirsters. If you already have the best anti-vehicle option why do you need more? A unit of 6 Destroyers using Extermination Protocols and Heavy Destroyers are both good against high toughness units with a good save characteristic, Destroyers don't even need Extermination Protocols to be good against T6 3+/5++ Daemon Princes. Tesla Immortals are fine against Russes, shoot any Infantry blocking your path and then go tag them in melee. Destroyers with Extermination Protocols are excellent against Daemon Princes. Mephrit Deathmarks are going to be pretty good against Bloodthirsters if they DS, put a couple of wounds on them and then they'll most likely fail their charge and you can easily finish them off in your own turn. The Nightbringer is excellent against Monsters if you can keep him alive, Wraiths should win against Daemon Princes, so melee isn't off the table either. Lychguard with warscythes will get cut to ribbons, but if you can charge with them they'll wreck the day of any Daemon Prince or Bloodthirster. If your opponent is keeping their units out of LOS when you go first maybe you should invest in the Deceiver to get around that with your Doomsday Arks.
I would honestly just recommend you paint whatever you already have and then get whatever you think looks cool, it doesn't sound like it's your collection that needs improvements in order to face your opponents. Read some tactics articles and watch some battle reports from tournament players on youtube.
I have been thinking about how to best impelement a melee threat into my army without completely disrupting the overall concept.
This is what I have come up with:
+ Heavy Support + Doomsday Ark [10 PL, 160pts] Heavy Destroyers [9 PL, 111pts] . 3x Heavy Destroyer: 3x Heavy Gauss Cannon
++ Total: [84 PL, 8CP, 1,250pts] ++
The CCB will be handing out the MWBD buff to the lychguard in the relevant turn when I want to engage and have cleared the screen with my immortals and Tomb Blades and at the same time provide the reroll to charge. If possible/necessary it also can eat the overwatch, as it is the most durable model in my army. Alternative would be to drop Blades and Deathmarks to incorporate 6 Wraiths to double up on the melee and wrapping capabilities.
I´ve tested it once so far and failed horribly because the Lychguard failed the charge and stood in front of Dakkabots... Do you guys think it is possible to include the core of Lychguard and CCB with reroll aura without completely disrupting how the rest of the army plays? Dynasty is flexible, I mostly play mephrit.
Cheers!
I have been thinking about how to best impelement a melee threat into my army without completely disrupting the overall concept.
This is what I have come up with:
+ Heavy Support + Doomsday Ark [10 PL, 160pts] Heavy Destroyers [9 PL, 111pts] . 3x Heavy Destroyer: 3x Heavy Gauss Cannon
++ Total: [84 PL, 8CP, 1,250pts] ++
The CCB will be handing out the MWBD buff to the lychguard in the relevant turn when I want to engage and have cleared the screen with my immortals and Tomb Blades and at the same time provide the reroll to charge. If possible/necessary it also can eat the overwatch, as it is the most durable model in my army. Alternative would be to drop Blades and Deathmarks to incorporate 6 Wraiths to double up on the melee and wrapping capabilities.
I´ve tested it once so far and failed horribly because the Lychguard failed the charge and stood in front of Dakkabots... Do you guys think it is possible to include the core of Lychguard and CCB with reroll aura without completely disrupting how the rest of the army plays? Dynasty is flexible, I mostly play mephrit.
Cheers!
Deathmarks have gone from really bad to just bad with the recent point drop. Dont play them. One DDA is like no DDA, you need at least two, to average out dice rolls. This is what i suggest :
Why nihilakh ? Because you can give your wraith a 2+ inv with a stratagem DDAs like to remain still, they benefit from re-rolling 1s.
Yes, the Deathmarks seem debatable, I am fully aware they will not be killing anything apart from single guardsmen. However, I have encountered multiple cases where I needed to have something on an objective and with the rest of our troops being M5 that is never going to happen if its one of the objective markers on the other end of the table. But they are surely first to go.
Have you considered my point about the lychguard? Because that was the main reason I posted here I would like to find a way to play them without building the whole list around them, as that seems to be a great way to lose the game.
Building on your suggestion I would swap out the Tomb blades for Wraith:
Yes, the Deathmarks seem debatable, I am fully aware they will not be killing anything apart from single guardsmen. However, I have encountered multiple cases where I needed to have something on an objective and with the rest of our troops being M5 that is never going to happen if its one of the objective markers on the other end of the table. But they are surely first to go.
Have you considered my point about the lychguard? Because that was the main reason I posted here I would like to find a way to play them without building the whole list around them, as that seems to be a great way to lose the game.
Building on your suggestion I would swap out the Tomb blades for Wraith:
+ Heavy Support + Doomsday Ark [10 PL, 160pts] Doomsday Ark [10 PL, 160pts]
++ Total: [84 PL, 8CP, 1,247pts] ++
Cheers!
I think you should decide for either lychguard or wraith, cant have both at 1250 pts. I dont like lychguard, with warscythes they deal good damage, but arent very durable. With swords and shield the situation is reversed. I like wraith better, they are fast, durable and deal good damage. Tomb blades are pretty good, i wouldnt remove them. They are fast, quite durable, and have good ranged firepower. Shooting power is more important than melee power. If you want objective holders scarabs are pretty good at that job.
The only use I have found Lychguard for is a bullet spunge. They can't kill really...um... Anything but most players don't know that at all. They just know they are an expensive melee only unit so they must be kill when marched up the board.
Just try to keep them in cover and send a cheap cheap Lord with them to really sell the threat. You will have the freedom to get your really workhorse units into position.
Lychguard have been, and always will be, a counter-charge unit in my mind, in an edition dominated by shooting.
When i have used them, their damage output wasn't incredible, but they were generally tough enough with their shields to take a charge from something like an invictor warsuit, redemptor drednaught, or medium sized death company squads, and then start grinding them down in melee as they reanimate their losses.
Which is one of their biggest issues. They don't kill things quickly in an edition where that is the biggest value from a melee unit. Get in, kill something important, probably die. They just don't work that way.
iGuy91 wrote: Lychguard have been, and always will be, a counter-charge unit in my mind, in an edition dominated by shooting.
When i have used them, their damage output wasn't incredible, but they were generally tough enough with their shields to take a charge from something like an invictor warsuit, redemptor drednaught, or medium sized death company squads, and then start grinding them down in melee as they reanimate their losses.
Which is one of their biggest issues. They don't kill things quickly in an edition where that is the biggest value from a melee unit. Get in, kill something important, probably die. They just don't work that way.
I think they have some value as a board control unit, but I do wish they had more damage output. Pre-outbreak I was running a Nihilakh list with 10 Shieldguard and I'd won all my games. They don't kill much, but they give your gunline a lot of breathing room and absorb a disgusting amount of firepower. The unit was still alive at the end in all three of my test games.
iGuy91 wrote: Lychguard have been, and always will be, a counter-charge unit in my mind, in an edition dominated by shooting.
When i have used them, their damage output wasn't incredible, but they were generally tough enough with their shields to take a charge from something like an invictor warsuit, redemptor drednaught, or medium sized death company squads, and then start grinding them down in melee as they reanimate their losses.
Which is one of their biggest issues. They don't kill things quickly in an edition where that is the biggest value from a melee unit. Get in, kill something important, probably die. They just don't work that way.
I think they have some value as a board control unit, but I do wish they had more damage output. Pre-outbreak I was running a Nihilakh list with 10 Shieldguard and I'd won all my games. They don't kill much, but they give your gunline a lot of breathing room and absorb a disgusting amount of firepower. The unit was still alive at the end in all three of my test games.
I agree they are reasonably tough. I just wish their shields were still a 3++, and we could mix shields and sword/board.
I just find you have to build around having them, and have a clear plan for them.
I agree they are reasonably tough. I just wish their shields were still a 3++, and we could mix shields and sword/board.
I just find you have to build around having them, and have a clear plan for them.
Yeah agree. I'm running them Nihilakh and using Reclaim + Dispersion strats to give them a 2+ inv when required, though I haven't actually needed to in any games I played yet. The 3++ from one of the strats has done the job.
It'd be sweet if they got 3++ as standard. Mixing would be cool, though not sure I would. I find scythes unwhelming damage dealers. Give them flat 3 damage or cleave inv saves and maybe, but as it is they need to be Novokh and supported by strats to put serious hurt out.
iGuy91 wrote: Lychguard have been, and always will be, a counter-charge unit in my mind, in an edition dominated by shooting.
When i have used them, their damage output wasn't incredible, but they were generally tough enough with their shields to take a charge from something like an invictor warsuit, redemptor drednaught, or medium sized death company squads, and then start grinding them down in melee as they reanimate their losses.
Which is one of their biggest issues. They don't kill things quickly in an edition where that is the biggest value from a melee unit. Get in, kill something important, probably die. They just don't work that way.
Counter charge only works when a unit is cheap enough or was something mandatory like an HQ unit with a melee weapon.
iGuy91 wrote: Lychguard have been, and always will be, a counter-charge unit in my mind, in an edition dominated by shooting.
When i have used them, their damage output wasn't incredible, but they were generally tough enough with their shields to take a charge from something like an invictor warsuit, redemptor drednaught, or medium sized death company squads, and then start grinding them down in melee as they reanimate their losses.
Which is one of their biggest issues. They don't kill things quickly in an edition where that is the biggest value from a melee unit. Get in, kill something important, probably die. They just don't work that way.
Counter charge only works when a unit is cheap enough or was something mandatory like an HQ unit with a melee weapon.
No particular disagreement on that point. I struggle to get a list where Lychguard really have a place.
I've been cooking up the following list. It's not meant to be competitive (why I chose to leave out DDA and Doom Scythes), but rather a 'take all comers' list.
I think it has a nice balance with Imotekh backed Tesla for horde, Lord supported Heavy Destroyers for armor, and a Novokh detachment bred for hunting elites.
I have an alternative list where a unit of Wraiths are swapped for 9 Tomb Blades, and the Scarabs are split in 2x3 to fill out the detachment. I like Tomb Blades, but I also like having a nasty melee component to the list.
iGuy91 wrote: Lychguard have been, and always will be, a counter-charge unit in my mind, in an edition dominated by shooting.
When i have used them, their damage output wasn't incredible, but they were generally tough enough with their shields to take a charge from something like an invictor warsuit, redemptor drednaught, or medium sized death company squads, and then start grinding them down in melee as they reanimate their losses.
Which is one of their biggest issues. They don't kill things quickly in an edition where that is the biggest value from a melee unit. Get in, kill something important, probably die. They just don't work that way.
Counter charge only works when a unit is cheap enough or was something mandatory like an HQ unit with a melee weapon.
No particular disagreement on that point. I struggle to get a list where Lychguard really have a place.
As stated above, I also have a problem to fit them into my list, especially if I try to build around them. That is why I try to find a way to include them without warping everything around them. I simply like the models and really want to field them.
As for counter charging, I have no idea when that would be supposed to happen? All my regular opponents (DA, Admech, Guard and IronHands) simply shoot stuff until its dead. There is no charge in the vicinity of any of my melee units, unless its guaranteed to kill everything.
iGuy91 wrote: Lychguard have been, and always will be, a counter-charge unit in my mind, in an edition dominated by shooting.
When i have used them, their damage output wasn't incredible, but they were generally tough enough with their shields to take a charge from something like an invictor warsuit, redemptor drednaught, or medium sized death company squads, and then start grinding them down in melee as they reanimate their losses.
Which is one of their biggest issues. They don't kill things quickly in an edition where that is the biggest value from a melee unit. Get in, kill something important, probably die. They just don't work that way.
Counter charge only works when a unit is cheap enough or was something mandatory like an HQ unit with a melee weapon.
No particular disagreement on that point. I struggle to get a list where Lychguard really have a place.
As stated above, I also have a problem to fit them into my list, especially if I try to build around them. That is why I try to find a way to include them without warping everything around them. I simply like the models and really want to field them.
As for counter charging, I have no idea when that would be supposed to happen? All my regular opponents (DA, Admech, Guard and IronHands) simply shoot stuff until its dead. There is no charge in the vicinity of any of my melee units, unless its guaranteed to kill everything.
Against those opponents, Nihilakh Shieldguard are the only thing that might work. Plonk them on an objective in mid board, drop 4CP for Reclaim and Dispersion strats, give them a 2++ that bounces mortals back on 6s and deny them any other good targets.
Even if we play with "enough" terrain, it is virtually impossible to hide everything but the Lychguard. And also it costs me half of my total CP. Which is why I so far have not tried to use them with shields.
On the other hand, I do have some targets that they would be very good against with scythes, as some of the enemy units are really hard to kill without Heavy Destroyers and are much more apprehensible in melee - like the DakkaBots from Admech or the tanks from the marine chapters. Here the strength 8 of Lychguard and flat 2 damage would really help.
Is the Zahndrekh shuffle still a thing? Using the deceiver to put him and possibly a few other units in front of the enemy then using Oberon to mantle a full unit of lycheguard like 3 inchs away from the enemy. I remember being hit by it and having a hell of a shock as half their army was in my face right away.
I am so confused as to what the new Szeras model is meant to be. He looks like he has a warscythe....and a Staff of Light....along with a 9 inch aura to cause perils on doubles for psykers, implying he wants to be close....but crypteks are hilariously squishy, and worse than an IG company commander in close combat...how does one use a model like that?
The model looks great. But, what an useless ability, psykers peril on doubles within 9". Most psychic abilities have more than 9" range. He is going to be another useless HQ tax. No dynasty, he wont be able to use anything that requires a dynasty, just like anrakyr the traveller, who cant go anywhere, except on foot. Cant be targeted by dynasty specific stratagems. I wouldnt be surprised if he has more than 10 wounds, thus can be targeted by anyone.
Maybe we'll get an upgraded mechanical augmentation ability.
I do agree that the range on his psychic protection seems a bit short. Would have been better if it worked against casters targeting him or a unit within 9" of him.
1. This model will probably not single handedly fix everything everyone has wanted (which aren’t even all the same thing to begin with).
2. This model IS awesome and has a super cool (and unique) effect!
3. We haven’t seen either his cost, statline, or anything else, so let’s not jump to conclusions.
...but also don’t set your expectations too manically high either.
Given that my other army that I have a lot of experience with is Thousand Sons, I have very little faith in Empyric Overcharger ever going off. Seems like another Necrons rule that's most effective against someone who hasn't seen it before.
I'm not sure what to think of the model itself; it's great in a vacuum but his new weapon is weird. He's going to need a pretty unique statline to justify the combo warscythe/staff of light, otherwise it's just going to be a downgrade compared to his old eldritch lance.
Given the size of him and his beefy weapon, I think it's safe to assume he's going to better than a cryptek in combat.
That psychics peril within 9" rule is meh, it's never going to go off. Hopefully he's cheap and the rest of his rules are good though, because the model is stunning.
It occurs to me that the "staff of light" portion might actually still be the Eldritch Lance or a new thing; it isn't exactly the same as either weapon.
I doubt he'll be cheap, more than an Overlord surely. The question is if he's worth it, people paid a lot of points for Guilliman after all.
Arachnofiend wrote: It occurs to me that the "staff of light" portion might actually still be the Eldritch Lance or a new thing; it isn't exactly the same as either weapon.
I doubt he'll be cheap, more than an Overlord surely. The question is if he's worth it, people paid a lot of points for Guilliman after all.
He'll be really good with Monoliths in three or four years when they get a viable pts cost. His weapon might be a doomsday cannon, like a Doomsday Ark with Character protection and C'tan level melee and a host of other rules. I think his doomsday cannon would be really good, I'd pay more than a Doomsday Ark for him because of character protection with a doomsday cannon and C'tan melee. His doomsday cannon could be range 80 instead of 72 and could be Strength 12 with d3 shots lmao. Wow, I sure would like more doomsday cannons, hehe, staff of light? More like staff of doomsday cannon. I think the tactics will be inevitable when his doomsday cannon goes woooeeew, boom and smashes a vehicle. Maybe he will automatically destroy vehicles and give all Necron Triarch Predators +1 T/S/A. Wow, wouldn't that be cool? What a tactical lynchpin he'll be if he's going to give Tricha Pretadors +1 to hit when he womps a clomp.
Its not just rather limited, its useless. About 30/180 psychic powers are 9" or less. That 1/6. Add that to the 1/6 chance of rolling a double. And dont forget your opponent can command reroll. Its almost never ever going to be successful, maybe it will work in 1/100 games. I really hope pariah has better rules than this ability.
Seriously, guys, we know nothing about his ability in the context of the model.
Right, he could have some additional ability which allows him to increase the range of his empyric overcharger by killing enemy models in melee, and sucking their life energy to power the overcharger. Like, for every model he kills in melee, his overcharger gets +1" range in the next turn. And then he gets awesome melee stats like the destroyer lord, 3 attacks, hitting on 3s, and you have to walk him into melee because he has no dynasty
sieGermans wrote: 1. This model will probably not single handedly fix everything everyone has wanted (which aren’t even all the same thing to begin with).
Good. If it requires special character for faction to work that sucks and is lousy game design. Crutch characters are bad for the game.
Hopefully rest of the PA book fixes issues rather than special character.
I bet his increased size will also lead to increased combat capabilities. His staff was a decent-ish ranged weapon last time around and it's the main feature on the model, so it better melt some faces.
As for the ability, it's really negligible, but GW will probably save the important stuff for later reveals. If this aura can somehow be projected onto other units to extend the range, it might do some work.
His main thing is probably still going to be enhancing key Necron units (hopefully new Pariah), though, so I'm still cautiously optimistic about him. And even if he's completely useless on the table, he will get a special spot in my display case.
No one is complaining about the model. Its awesome. But necrons are in dire need of better rules, so when the first new rule we see is thus bad, it gives people reason to worry that gw doesn't understand our plight on the tabletop.
We'll see when his full rules turn up. Given the model, I'm assuming he has some kinda soul sucking rule, so he may power up by killing psykers or just anyone (the dude on his base doesn't look like a psyker.
sieGermans wrote: Seriously, guys, we know nothing about his ability in the context of the model.
We don't need to. We already know the ability in the context of the psychic phase.
That's obviously an inconsistent statement. We obviously need to know the context of the model to understand how the psychic phase and the model will interact--we don't really know the context of the psychic phase without knowing the role of this unit in it, not only internally but also in the context of the phase before it (i.e., movement) and the phases afterward (i.e., shooting and combat).
More-over, the cost of the unit matters insofar as its cost/impact within the psychic phase.
But, I mean, you know all this and you made your statement anyway--so obviously I'm mistaken in a way I don't understand.
...so I guess I'll be buying this anyway for the joy of assembling and painting it. Since this has no bearing on a Tactics discussion, I'll refrain from repeating it.
sieGermans wrote: 1. This model will probably not single handedly fix everything everyone has wanted (which aren’t even all the same thing to begin with).
Good. If it requires special character for faction to work that sucks and is lousy game design. Crutch characters are bad for the game.
Hopefully rest of the PA book fixes issues rather than special character.
Agreed--I made this point as well later on regarding incremental changes being better than single-model corrections.
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IanVanCheese wrote: No one is complaining about the model. Its awesome. But necrons are in dire need of better rules, so when the first new rule we see is thus bad, it gives people reason to worry that gw doesn't understand our plight on the tabletop.
We'll see when his full rules turn up. Given the model, I'm assuming he has some kinda soul sucking rule, so he may power up by killing psykers or just anyone (the dude on his base doesn't look like a psyker.
I really wouldn't assume that one model is indicative of presence/lack of sweeping subsequent changes.
If it is over-tuned, that would suggest GW thinks this would solve all our problems (which it wouldn't shouldn't) or it would get nerfed.
If it is under-tuned, that would suggest GW thinks we are fine OR would suggest that a suite of subtle changes are needed.
So if we can draw opposing reasonable conclusions with the same information--it's obviously not indicative alone in any possible case.
sieGermans wrote: That's obviously an inconsistent statement. We obviously need to know the context of the model to understand how the psychic phase and the model will interact--we don't really know the context of the psychic phase without knowing the role of this unit in it, not only internally but also in the context of the phase before it (i.e., movement) and the phases afterward (i.e., shooting and combat).
That makes no sense.
We don't need to know the particulars of this model to understand how the psychic phase operates. There are already rules for that.
Nor do we need to see this model's rules to understand the rules and, more importantly, ranges of psychic powers. We already know what they do.
Hence, we can quite easily say that a 9" aura is not going to be useful because the vast majority of psykers can cast powers from well outside of that range. Not only that but Perils on any doubles isn't even that terrifying to begin with.
More-over, the cost of the unit matters insofar as its cost/impact within the psychic phase.
Why? Even if it cost 10pts, it still wouldn't make this a good rule.
The *model* might be strong, but it wouldn't be because of this rule and it wouldn't automatically mean that this rule would have any significant effect on the game.
But, I mean, you know all this and you made your statement anyway--so obviously I'm mistaken in a way I don't understand.
Your mistakes are:
1) Claiming that we don't know enough to make a judgement, yet ignoring all the information we already have available. We know how the psychic phase works (so we know from the offset that this ability could affect the entire table and it would still be incredibly weak against every army bar maybe GKs and TSs). We also know that the range of most psychic powers is 18-24", so they have no reason to go anywhere near this model's aura. Finally, we know that the Movement Phase happens before the Psychic Phase, so even if you move your aura into range of a psyker in your turn, there's nothing stopping them from just moving out again during their turn before they cast any powers.
2) Thinking that GW actually know what they're doing. You've seen the Tomb Spyder, right? That's what GW thinks constitutes effective psychic defence for a non-psychic faction.
Look, if you want to hold out for this guy having another special rule that makes this special rule actually worth a damn, feel free. But until I see definite proof of such, I'll simply follow my instincts and experience and assume that it's exactly as garbage an ability as it looks.
sieGermans wrote: ...so I guess I'll be buying this anyway for the joy of assembling and painting it. Since this has no bearing on a Tactics discussion, I'll refrain from repeating it.
Crap ability aside, I'll certainly agree that it's a very nice model.
sieGermans wrote: That's obviously an inconsistent statement. We obviously need to know the context of the model to understand how the psychic phase and the model will interact--we don't really know the context of the psychic phase without knowing the role of this unit in it, not only internally but also in the context of the phase before it (i.e., movement) and the phases afterward (i.e., shooting and combat).
That makes no sense.
We don't need to know the particulars of this model to understand how the psychic phase operates. There are already rules for that.
Nor do we need to see this model's rules to understand the rules and, more importantly, ranges of psychic powers. We already know what they do.
Hence, we can quite easily say that a 9" aura is not going to be useful because the vast majority of psykers can cast powers from well outside of that range. Not only that but Perils on any doubles isn't even that terrifying to begin with.
More-over, the cost of the unit matters insofar as its cost/impact within the psychic phase.
Why? Even if it cost 10pts, it still wouldn't make this a good rule.
The *model* might be strong, but it wouldn't be because of this rule and it wouldn't automatically mean that this rule would have any significant effect on the game.
But, I mean, you know all this and you made your statement anyway--so obviously I'm mistaken in a way I don't understand.
Your mistakes are:
1) Claiming that we don't know enough to make a judgement, yet ignoring all the information we already have available. We know how the psychic phase works (so we know from the offset that this ability could affect the entire table and it would still be incredibly weak against every army bar maybe GKs and TSs). We also know that the range of most psychic powers is 18-24", so they have no reason to go anywhere near this model's aura. Finally, we know that the Movement Phase happens before the Psychic Phase, so even if you move your aura into range of a psyker in your turn, there's nothing stopping them from just moving out again during their turn before they cast any powers.
2) Thinking that GW actually know what they're doing. You've seen the Tomb Spyder, right? That's what GW thinks constitutes effective psychic defence for a non-psychic faction.
Look, if you want to hold out for this guy having another special rule that makes this special rule actually worth a damn, feel free. But until I see definite proof of such, I'll simply follow my instincts and experience and assume that it's exactly as garbage an ability as it looks.
sieGermans wrote: ...so I guess I'll be buying this anyway for the joy of assembling and painting it. Since this has no bearing on a Tactics discussion, I'll refrain from repeating it.
Crap ability aside, I'll certainly agree that it's a very nice model.
I don't disagree with what you're saying about our ability to extrapolate based on the known information.
I do disagree with the certainty you're applying.
But I'm happy to agree to disagree with a gentle bias towards assuming you're probably correct (and I am wrong) given your experience. [Since I know there is a wealth of snide/sarcasm on this forum normally, please note that I am being genuine here! ]
We don't need to know the particulars of this model to understand how the psychic phase operates. There are already rules for that.
Nor do we need to see this model's rules to understand the rules and, more importantly, ranges of psychic powers. We already know what they do.
Hence, we can quite easily say that a 9" aura is not going to be useful because the vast majority of psykers can cast powers from well outside of that range. Not only that but Perils on any doubles isn't even that terrifying to begin with.
So you don't think there's any difference to 9" aura that is on backrank buffer and one that is head on center of the fight in your face in the midst of enemy army?
18" circle middle of enemy army is "bit" different to 18" circle on your back ranks...Why you think I put my anti-psyker aura's with my sisters army to the melee canoness rather than the exorcist buffer?
We also have no idea are there any upgrades or stratagems that changes things...8th ed is more about stratagems than unit rules anyway.
Its worse then a 9" range when you realize the other guy gets his movement phase before the psychic phase.
With an average move or 6" for slow characters you would need to be within 3" starting the other guys turn.
If you are not engaged they get to advance as well.
So basically this ability will only work with melee psychers and if they move faster then 6" like a jump/winged or biker model it still won't matter unless they want to be in combat with him. SO demon prince, libby dread etc etc. So he better be a beast in combat or that ability really is a gimick.
Lets be honest, this power needed to be a 24" range just like denials are. It doesn't even stop powers. So psychic heavy armies like T-sons can 1cp ignore perils and eldar ignore the mortals on 2's.
I fully agree we need to wait, who knows maybe every unit he upgrades doubles the range when he's nearby or also gives them the ability as well. Could be much better, could be much worse, heaven help us if one of the three random buffs he gives is this.
But with the information we have right now, that power really sucks. It's not new, there are multiple other chaos units that do this exact thing and it rarely matters.
EDIT: for reference the master of possession, who is a frequently played model has this exact ability with a 12" range and how many of you were of aware of that?
If he moves away from that then it can already be good for you. Plenty of psykers out there who don't want to be far away from you. If you get that librarian dreadnought or mephiston go away from you that's already benefitting...It's easy to say "he can move away". Good. Psyker that's moving away is often psyker less efficient and giving up board control.
That thing is unlikely to be "the" thing you take the model anyway. It's tiny thing. You don't take him likely for that any more than you take ghost ark because it repairs wound per turn. GW doesn't automatically show best things first up.
And it works vs psykers who want to engage him or units near him. Unlikely you send this model roaming around alone unsupported....
And as for others with this ability...I have actually been hurt by those.
EDIT: for reference the master of possession, who is a frequently played model has this exact ability with a 12" range and how many of you were of aware of that?
Picked up on that the moment I spotted it, it's an ability we wont get any use out of as it stands right now.
I don't disagree with what you're saying about our ability to extrapolate based on the known information.
I do disagree with the certainty you're applying.
But I'm happy to agree to disagree with a gentle bias towards assuming you're probably correct (and I am wrong) given your experience. [Since I know there is a wealth of snide/sarcasm on this forum normally, please note that I am being genuine here! ]
That's fair.
I mean, as with many of my predictions, it would be nice to be wrong.
Unfortunately, my experience with GW does not lend itself to any hope on my part.
So you don't think there's any difference to 9" aura that is on backrank buffer and one that is head on center of the fight in your face in the midst of enemy army?
Honestly? No.
It would need to be at least twice the current range before I would even consider it worth the ink it cost to print.
And it would have to affect the entire board for me to consider it a decent defence against psykers.
I hope that it is just a throw away rule like the Storm Lords rule for Flayed Ones.
Never ever comes up in play at all but with his other abilities he is a competitive model that has seen play.
vipoid wrote: As an aside, does anyone know why Illuminor Szeras is getting a new model in the first place?
The new one is nice, sure, but I thought he already had one of the newest models in the entire range.
Probably because they saw the biggest potential for a nice model. All other Necron chars are just infatry dudes and Szeras has at least the spider legs to make him bigger and more imposing.
I suppose he is also the easiest character to work as a catalyst for a (hopefully) meaningful advance of Necrons tech/lore, similar to how Caul overhauled the Marines and Bile might overhaul Chaos Marines. If Pariahs are indeed coming back, Szeras would be the one making it possible.
vipoid wrote: As an aside, does anyone know why Illuminor Szeras is getting a new model in the first place?
The new one is nice, sure, but I thought he already had one of the newest models in the entire range.
Because almost every faction gets new (HQ) model(s) with PA.
Eh not that many. Most of books got models for one faction...PA2 got for 2, PA2 for 1, PA3 for 1, PA4 for 1, PA5 for 1...PA6 got for 2, PA7 doesn't seem to get all that much HQ's though admech gets whole lot of non-HQ. PA8 is getting for 1, PA9 for 2.
That's what 10 factions out of around 30 who got HQ out of PA. Hardly "almost every". Not even half.
vipoid wrote: As an aside, does anyone know why Illuminor Szeras is getting a new model in the first place?
The new one is nice, sure, but I thought he already had one of the newest models in the entire range.
Because almost every faction gets new (HQ) model(s) with PA.
Eh not that many. Most of books got models for one faction...PA2 got for 2, PA2 for 1, PA3 for 1, PA4 for 1, PA5 for 1...PA6 got for 2, PA7 doesn't seem to get all that much HQ's though admech gets whole lot of non-HQ. PA8 is getting for 1, PA9 for 2.
That's what 10 factions out of around 30 who got HQ out of PA. Hardly "almost every". Not even half.
Where do you get 30 from ? GW displayed 18 factions for PA.
Spoiler:
On top of these 18 factions, 3 more were added : Militarum tempestus, agents of bile, and officio assassionarum, making it 21 factions.
From these 21 factions 13 have received new models. And there is still one preview to come.
Secondly, I dont suppose it matters who got models and who didnt, on the whole PA has done good things for every army it touches (sorry GSC)
Even if it's a questionable at best choice of character, I am hoping the new strats and DIYDynasties is good enough to make up for it, like with Faith & Fury giving the other HQ models for SM some extra options, or the Tank Aces & RegiDoctrines for IG
I refuse to be pessimistic about the one and only thing we've been given in the last 12 months (even if I would have preferred it to be The Silent King, that is preference only)
Yeah at the very least his statline should be getting a buff and his cost shouldn't be ludicrous - GW of late are making special characters into bargains. 120pts for Ragnar for example.
I think he's going up to Str and Toughness 5 or 6, probably 4 attacks with his big wacky stick. He'll be the best counter charger character we have until the codex gets an update.
If they buff his modfications rules and get rid of useless stuff like +1 Str and replace with +1 save then he could be a little beast. Maybe even a buff for Immortals/Warriors guns. Or make it so he can affect any unit.
vipoid wrote: As an aside, does anyone know why Illuminor Szeras is getting a new model in the first place?
The new one is nice, sure, but I thought he already had one of the newest models in the entire range.
Because almost every faction gets new (HQ) model(s) with PA.
Eh not that many. Most of books got models for one faction...PA2 got for 2, PA2 for 1, PA3 for 1, PA4 for 1, PA5 for 1...PA6 got for 2, PA7 doesn't seem to get all that much HQ's though admech gets whole lot of non-HQ. PA8 is getting for 1, PA9 for 2.
That's what 10 factions out of around 30 who got HQ out of PA. Hardly "almost every". Not even half.
Where do you get 30 from ? GW displayed 18 factions for PA.
Spoiler:
On top of these 18 factions, 3 more were added : Militarum tempestus, agents of bile, and officio assassionarum, making it 21 factions.
From these 21 factions 13 have received new models. And there is still one preview to come.
You didn't say just PA factions. I went with factions in 40k.
And that's 24 factions in pic you show. 6x4=24. 10 is still less than half of 24. Hardly most. And then 3 more added=27. So actually 30 is getting close. In case you aren't aware "around X" is common way in english to say about something. Not exactly that.
And top of that you said HQ models. HQ models so far: eldar, dark eldar, chaos, blood angel, dark angel, tau, space wolves, orks, agents of bile, presumably sisters, necrons. Okay slight error on my part. 11. 11 out of 27 is still hardly most. It's 40.74...%. That's less than 50%. If you disagree please show your unique math that says is most of 27.
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IanVanCheese wrote: Yeah at the very least his statline should be getting a buff and his cost shouldn't be ludicrous - GW of late are making special characters into bargains. 120pts for Ragnar for example.
285 for Ghaz disagrees.
More accurate would be GW is making marine characters bargains lately. Necrons aren't marines so don't get your hopes. Non marine updates have been often lackluster so far. Not even DIY dynasty can be anymore counted. Orks were left out of that for example.
Ghaz is a little overcosted for sure, but I can see why they were scared of making him too cheap. Some armies really struggle to deal with that 4 damage per phase rule.
Honestly, he'd be worth the cost if he could benefit from normal rules that infantry can - him being a monster is what makes him meh.
Anyway, it's the strats and dynasty stuff that will make or break us. Even if things get back to normal soon, we're not seeing our book for a while I'd wager too. Maybe late July if they rush everything out to get back to their old release schedule?Realistically I think August for us.
So we're stuck without much tactics to discuss for a while.
