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In reading JJ's Standard Bearer, a few light bulbs went on.  Not from anything he particularly said, but it crystallized some of the excitement some folks have for Apocalypse.

Not as a one-off game, but as something you build a specific army for, something you build a list for.

JJ mentioned that Apocalypse opens up the model line to anyone.  His example was a die hard IG player who can now buy some SM terminators.  Pretty simple comment.  As someone who conceptualizes army ideas far more than actually builds them, paints them, or fields them, Apocalypse is a dream come true for three reasons, two official and one unofficial.

The official two are most critical, and we all already know them.  NO FORCE ORG and NO SINGLE ARMY LIST.  I didn't give that a ton of thought yet, but it opens up a wide and interesting realm of possibility (beyond the "all tanks" concept).  It means every Codex entry can play in any single army.  Even the powergamer number crunchers should love this...what is the ultimate 3000 point mathhammer list.

The unofficial one is almost as important, and I think Apocalypse celebrates it, as long as the player is honest.  COUNTS AS.  I believe Apocalypse requires WYSIWYG and rightly so...that many models can be confusing.  But WYSIWYG can be addressed by competent modelers/players quite easily.  It's been done time and again.

Putting those together, it feeds what I love most about army creation.  The concept.  I look at that before I look at the rules.  My attraction to the 13th Company was based on their concept being ideal for me...long before I saw the (relatively ugly) Wulfen models or rules.  Once you have a concept, you used to look for any army list that fit.

Now you have EVERY army list (that is still compatible) to cherry pick.

It at least adds back some flexibility that was lost.  It's frankly a DREAM CONCEPT for Lost and the Damned.  Tyranids for monsters, CSM for Elites, IG for troops and ragtag.

Want to build a White Scar army?  Use Sammael (for his jetbike), and take all FA choices.  Use the RW lists for the "Vet" bikers.  The world is your oyster.

What it means to me is that I can screw with my 13th Company.  If I lose the rules in a year or two, I can just build it from an all Wolf Guard army.  Throw in some stratagems, and I can make it work.  And I've long desired to have a REALLY old dread...now I'll take the most PIMP dread I can.  And some FW Termies.  And I can use the best rules for them.

It kind of feeds what I've LONG wanted GW to do.  Worry about the points over everything.  When the points can be balanced, the game will be balanced.  Not that this does that (the points are still the old ones), but it allows me to conceptualize armies based only on points.

Explorator forces?  DK Infantry and Cavalry, backed up by Shrike's Wing

An army of Shrike's Wing units   But better modeled.

This is what it opens up.  I like it.  Even if the games will be disasters.

So what does Apocalypse do for you?

For me Apocalypse opens up much of what you've already mentioned.  I can put together armies with all kinds of fun stuff that a standard org chart doesn't allow (Ork horde, anyone?) and even use that to run campaigns, interesting campaigns with built-in balance.  I can buy oddball units that just look cool to throw them in and use things that are not necessarily optimal.

I feel like I just bought my first pair of boxer shorts and can finally go without those tighty-whities. 

Plus, if this works out really well for GW, we may see this as a basis for 5th Edition.  Hope hope.

To me it means.

More cowbell.

It's going to be so much fun for all the reasons mentioned.

To me it means: Too expensive to play without a second job, and secondarily too wacky to work long term. I don't see apocolypse games being that much fun really.

It means I need to convince one of the local shops to do a painting night, or I'll never get an army that big.

I am not gong to buy into the enthusiasm.

Apocalpse has a good point, building games up to 3k as a standard. This erans we will see more big stuff. However Gw is still dreaming that people play balanced fluff lists. Some do, and it makes the game better. However most dont. No force Org simply means the death of what little balance remaining.

For all the many options they crow about, many many armies will simply be all holofalcons or all flyrants, or worse still a mixture of the two with some lash princes blended in.

Indeed, Apocalypse is "more cowbell".

I gotta have more cowbell.

To me, it is alot of what diekenes described, but it also means I can use any book I want.

Not just marines and sisters, it means any version of marines (3rd ed on up) and any version of chaos. Etc.

For those lamenting the loss of detailed codices, you need not do so. If you built your army around a particular concept/rules/then you can do this.

Why?

Because this isnt a tourney game, this is for fun. Once you get past the initial knee-jerk reaction that everyone taking all heavy support cheesefests, and get down to the brass tacks of fun, then it becomes apparent that the truly open affair of apocalypse is indeed what 40K needed.

Want to play the original Chapter approved elysian drop troops with the original 3rd ed codex? Why the hell not?

Want to play an Eye of Terror ulthwe strike force with the third ed codex and craftworld codex? I see nothing stopping you. Great idea!

It makes me glad I still have all of my old rule books. You not only have multiple armies to choose from, but multiple codices for those armies.

Apocalypse certainly is "More Cowbell".

Yup.
Structure makes the game more fun, as long as it's good structure. I didn't need apocolypse to tell me I could do crazy big battles where nids orks and tau allied against the space marines, grey knights and gaurd, I already did that. it was fun, once. but it took an entire saturday.

 

EDIT: Heh, Hellfury, reckon people won't mind if I use my old second ed lists?

"What are you doing?"

"Running."

"Okay, well then I shoot at you."

"Okay, well, you missed because I'm in soft cover."

"Huh?"

"Oh, and I'm putting that unit of kustom kombi weapons on overwatch 'kay?"

If you play apocolypse with people who have that mindset, then yes. But if you set up a game in advance with people who want the same thing from the game that you do, then you should be fine. Again, i dont think that many people will be playing pick up apocolypse.

I have a group of buddies who dont play competetively, but always play campaigns and for fun on the weekends. This is perfect for gaming with them. We hang out, get some beers, and play at an agreed upon time. This way we can have some really cool, thematic battles and not stress about force org restrictions. Everyone will police themself in terms of cheese and in the end, the games will be a ton of fun.

I can already see it, teams of imperial players holding a fort (that we build just for the occasion) from whatever xenos and scum care to try and take it. Who wins? who cares! it's for a laugh.

But in competetive play, apoc would be a flipping train wreck. it isnt meant for that.

Plus, like Dienekes said, this is a modelers/army designers dream come true. Throw a squad of Terminators in your IG army but model them as imperial gaurd in power armor, or as super servitors, or whatever.

Your deamon hunters can take a giant construct as a carnifex.

You want a land speeder in your gaurd army? Cool, model it as a fast buggy with an assault cannon on it and there you go.

Hell you want a Falcon with firedragons for your Marines, make up some unit to do it as counts as. I think with the limits taken away, you can really design an awesome, completely custom army and just go wild with it.

So yes, apoc is deffinitely more cowbell. It just means more options and more fun.

I miss 2nd ed., where my Valhallans and Squats could ally together in one army, supported by a unit of Space Marines.

Sigh.

Posted By Da Boss on 08/22/2007 1:25 PM

EDIT: Heh, Hellfury, reckon people won't mind if I use my old second ed lists?

"What are you doing?"

"Running."

"Okay, well then I shoot at you."

"Okay, well, you missed because I'm in soft cover."

"Huh?"

"Oh, and I'm putting that unit of kustom kombi weapons on overwatch 'kay?"

Friends dont let friends mix apocalypse with second edition.

Hmm....the rope tightens.....I'm all for Apoc' but only if it follows the fluff.

I know, I know, some will say I'm missing the point.....maybe, but then again, when I buy Space Marines its because I want to play WH40K....not some hybrid honk fest that I've cooked up for the hell of it.

Plus I love the idea of extreme WYSIWYG.....its why I spend hours modelling and painting a single figure! I hate the idea of a Term' being used for anything other than a Term'.....if you want to create an IG whatyoucallit then get converting, go create, go innovate.....

When all else breaks down....turn to the FLUFF!!

Apocalypse means taking a character with a weenie mutant power, and turning
that weenie into a big bad worthy of being a horseman.

I was posting to a friend on another board that there's no force org anymore, you can take an army of all dreadnoughts if you want.. and then I started thinking.. wow, an all dreadnought army would be pretty damn fun to make and stuff.. not that I ever would/could afford..

For me Apoc lets me make my army the way I invisioned it. They're stuck on a planet floating outside the eye of terror, it's the homeworld for the Knights of the Stormrider chapter. Due to their close proximity to the eye, they get attacked all the time. So, they have a huge planetary defense force, the Stormguard, in fact every citizen is pretty much a soldier too. As both Marines and Guard call this place home, they quite often fight alongside each other. Then, of course, the Imperium saw fit to send an inquisitor or 2 and a handful of grey knights to "help" them, but his job is really to make sure they don't turn all chaossy since they live so close.. etc..

So, I can combine my demonhunters, grey knights, marines and guard in one big army If I really, really want to, I can even throw in some chaos-hating Ulthwe eldar to help em. Or, if I want to play a smaller game I can still pick and choose different options from each force and half my made-up fluff still present in the army. I'm really lookin forward to it yeah it will be a tank filled cheesefest at first, but I think soon after people will start playing "normal" armies again.

Apocalypse will be a nice change of pace from the 1850-2000pt Standard Mission rut that dominates in certain areas.  It will make it so that a group of players can play really awesome big battles however they like and use cool Forgeworld stuff.

As far as the marketing element goes, I think this will be a great chance for people to develop armored companies, all dread, or all Terminator armies.  That said, I don't think that this will compel anyone to spend more money.  If the game is made for more than one player, teammates can simply combine their forces to make armored companies or a massive Tau airforce, VDR rules or what have you. 

I probably won't be playing that much apocalypse, but I'm sure that it will be fun when I actually am able to.

Posted By malfred on 08/22/2007 2:31 PM
Apocalypse means taking a character with a weenie mutant power, and turning
that weenie into a big bad worthy of being a horseman.

The En Sabah Nur ref gets a sloppy, wet exalt, Felix!

Apocalypse has actually made me want to play 40k again.

Delephont, like I said, I'm a conceptualizer. For me, it's always about the fluff. But that's me. I'd choose opponents who did the same. But I can make fluff work.

I don't need the Carnifex models in the army...just the RULES What it does is allow any rule set to be used, freeing up the players to simply model whatever they can dream.

I want my 13th Company to have a unit of Champions...10 Wolf Lords (for the loss, but who cares - modeling 10 Wolf Lords would be awesome).

I have every intention of playing a 1500 point army with 6 strategems. How wild would that **** be?

I can think of any army...and the rules and models are mine to play with, within whatever fluff constraints I set.

Mixed Imperial Forces...Xenos last stand (Eldar and DE vs. Necrons)...ultimate Lost and Damned...Space Marine First Founding Crusade army...Tau with Ork Slaves...Orks with Tau and Eldar Slave units...from a modeling perspective, it's absolutely liberating.

Even for the powergamers, it should be fun. Without the constraint of a single army list, how ugly can you be? As long as they play each other...that's fun.

It's a very big galaxy. I can make the fluff work on many iterations. So could anyone with a few minutes and a good idea.

Posted By dienekes96 on 08/22/2007 4:39 PM

I have every intention of playing a 1500 point army with 6 strategems. How wild would that **** be?

Agreed. I also plan on using this system for smaller points games myself. 1000-2000 point game suddenlt got more interesting.

Yeah, GW wants you to buy 3k worth of stuff, but I find it entirely unnecessary.

Suddenly, the nearly non existant force org in combat patrol isnt as cheesy as everyone previously thought.

I cant wait to do a list with a radical Ordos Xenos force using a few Xenos allies.

This is a good thread. Either I'm becoming less jaded, or Chuck is earning every penny that GW is paying him.

I've been thinking about a Rogue Trader Crusade army for years, and now I'll actually start it!

hmmm...

to me it means more tanks and realy big booms

if you think about it would you take the pistol or the rifle, shure the rifle costs more but your getting more bang for your buck granted the pistole is eseyer to carry around but a rifle more likely to have better stoping power mor amo, and beter acuricy,

in game turms 40k dosnt atuly give you a look to how real works, it will give you a chance to see the big pitcure, large armys offer more strategic options and how squads can support one another. 

my only complante is that i would like to be able to change tarrain, you know have a diggin rule like sacrafice a squads turn to fortafie a bulding, dig a trench, ect.  

i am realy looking foward to this new game, so much infact iv been reading genrel rommel's tatic book: infentry attacks, vary good read

Posted By Jester on 08/22/2007 5:57 PM
This is a good thread. Either I'm becoming less jaded, or Chuck is earning every penny that GW is paying him.

I've been thinking about a Rogue Trader Crusade army for years, and now I'll actually start it!

Agreed. Its a very good thread.

When you say rogue trader crusade army, what exactly do you mean?

The name itself sounds nifty, but I am intrigued to know more about the idea behind the name.

I'm thinking about a Cortez type character, given a ship, some soldiers and a mission: to find the planet Terminus, recently emerged from a warpstorm and allegedly home to a nearly complete STC technocopia (and a ripping club scene). Unfortunately this planet is on the Eastern Fringe, home of those barmy blue bastards the Tau.

Hilarity will hopefully ensue.

I'll probably add some kroot to my existing Imperial Guard army(some troopers will be given tau weapons to represent reformed guel 'a conscripts), along with a Baneblade or seven and my compulsory Space Marine detachment. I debated on using an Inquisitor to represent Captain-General Hiram Zohar, but I'll probably just use the IG hq.

Posted By Vero on 08/22/2007 12:54 PM
To me it means.

More cowbell.

It's going to be so much fun for all the reasons mentioned.

I've got a fever.  And the only perscription is more cowbell.

Apocolapyse to me is back to the days of Rogue Trader and just playing with what you have.  I have a ton of Marine stuff, but can only fit so much into an 1850 list; now I can use it all on the table.  For my IG, I love Commissars, and miss the Commisar Cadet Squad.  Guess what?  Still have the models (lasgun, blue piping) so now they're back, baby.

Getting to play with all my toys at the same time, that's what it's all about.

I'm quite excited about playing some bigger games. I used to love pulling out 10 to 15k of either rouge trader or epic.

Apocalypse lets me pay the bills by selling huge boxes of stuff to all my friends/customers, who then play me with huge armies. I'm really debating what to work on. I sort of want to wait on my Orks. I've got 10k and know I'm painting a bunch of the new stuff. I have a great desire to mount an inquisitor on a throne on top of a baneblade, pimp it all out, and paint it red and gold. I may have to paint up a bunch of sisters and WH to add to my 6k of GK and DH. So many options.

We are doing the 'Ardboyz' tournament, and the regional, so I'm making enough scenery to fill 15 tables, 8' x 4'. A wonderful upside of this is I can make some really big boards for some huge games of Apocalypse. I'm thinking 8' x 12' would be a good size for a 10k point game.

To me, it means having the tools to run multiplayer megabattles without pain or the need to plan things out in detail.

More tanks.

More cowbell.

P.S. I'm loving some of the ideas I'm hearing here. Ordo Xenos with alien mercs. Rogue Trader entourage. Good stuff.

I am hearing way too much wishful thinking.

Anyone use mortar squads
anyone use combi-weapons
Anyone use shotgun scouts
Anyone use close combat carnifexes
Anyone use mixed devastators like they had in the boxset.
Anyone use old rules shining spears


Very very very few. Actually I did, but am playing a realistic devils advocate here.

All those who think that its now time for really fluffy armies are deluding themselves. We have already had that and the units that dont work get to been very rarely and either in the hands of a kid who knows no better, or a veteran player who wants a change.

You can deam of dream armies as much as you like. Apocalypse will be abused for cheese, and it will destroy all game balance.

Yes some will have mixed games, and themed armies. They do right now, but how small a proportion is it. Guess the proportion of 3x elite dakkafex Nidzilla players to those who use just one carnifex and it has crushing claws (because they look good). That is the proportion of those who will play Apocalypse to win, vs those who will enter for the spirit of the game.

Unless thereis something in the rules preventing them. Many players will dvide their points quota by the points cost of a holofalcon, field that many holofalcons and win. They will probably deploy them in threes for whatever special advantage is going for them.

The whole point of Apocalypse is both players having fun. It's not a competitive game. You may call it wishful thinking, but most of the people excited about Apocalypse are people who just want to play with cool ideas.

The only major rule of Apocalypse, per the writers, is that the game is AGREED UPON beforehand. It's not a pick up game. Half the stuff we are talking about is simply because it's a fun idea from an army perspective. Have a very simply house rule: if one side is pounding the other, the other gets to bring all of their "deceased" back onto the table next round. Or they get two new strategems.

The whole point is to have fun. We've already talked about using old Codicies (Chaos 3.5 for the IW lovers, or Cult Chapters). If someone wouldn't allow their opponent to do it, why play the game?

In short, Apocalypse is about the players policing the rules, not the rules policing the players.

Some thoughts after mulling over the copious army concepts shared by all last night (and thanks for the kind words about the thread - I figured there were some kindred spirits on Dakka, and I'm not surprised who they are):

Imperial Zoo

Orkimedes is my answer for half of the Ork stuff. First off, I fricking love the idea of an Ork genius. That can be my excuse for almost anything with the Orks. Maybe he can tap into the Necron control frequencies Besides, what model would be cooler than a "looted" Carnifex.

The ultimate Marine army...just like a buffet: take the bikes/speeders of the RW, the assault squads of the BA/RW (seriously, Shrike's Wing is a fricking beautiful unit - but it runs about 630 points - and it's not quite worth building a RW army; you know, who the hell does that), use IF Termies led by Lysander (as many squads with two HW as you want), use existing SW Long Fang squads - and paint them however you want. Ed, math it out.

I did have some questions. Having not seen the rulebook, but being curious and speculative, I assume the unit entry is inviolate (unless you agree with your opponent it's not). Meaning you can't take a Termie squad with 5 Assault Cannons. You can't piece/part that. That led me to be curious about Special Character rules, like Lysander's Teleport rule. I'd assume that ONLY works on Terminator units from the SM (IF doctrine) Codex. I think that is the logical edge of the rule, before getting into house rules.

The Assault Cannon Fetish Army (I love assault cannons):
All the LR's are LRC's (2)
All the Preds are Baal's (I love that model, but didn't want to play BA) (4)
Multiple dreads with AC's (4)
All LS are LST, with some Master RW models thrown in (4 LSTs, 2 MRWs)
"Troops" are terminators - 3 squads buys 6 ACs - maybe the opponent will let me group them into a 5 man squad, the other 2 having 1 HW between them.
What am I missing?

When it comes down to brass tacks, most of these are vaporlists. They are fun to tinker with, but a few will actually get done. And I can use Baal preds in my DIY chapter without having to be a slave to BA rules (at least in Apocalypse). People are still going to have and play their main armies, but now they can supplement them with Apoc-only models/units.

You are completely failing to see the point.

First, I would like to agree with you. After all I played 3.0 with shining spears because it fit my background for bike heavy swordwind. Expensive points wise and hard to play but fun. you arent talking to a minimaxer here, but you are talking to a realist.

Secondly, I suspect you agree with me also. you just dont see it yet. What is your fetish army based on: assault cannons. Why did you choose that gun by the way, and not something else. Sure you would need different vehicles and units, but basically its because assault cannon r0xx0r. Vaporlist, yes, we all think of some, but usually they revolve around something that works exceptionally well.

Thirdly all games of 40K are 'agreed upon'. Every player has from the outset hasd the option to agree to house rules. Tournaments excepted. However hard experioence tells us that most players agree upon the RAW as the only constant, and exoploit that for what its worth. So if you agree to play Apocalypse someone erlse can agree upon massed holofalcons. Inevitable really. It doesnt matter what the writers say, every single edition has given some form of acknowledgement of house rules, for what little good that does.

Fourthly if you want to play a game where anything goes you can do this already, and it is frequently done. The only rules elements seem to revolve around new templates and inclusion of larger formations and vehicles/creatures. This is a tool for more sales, but it is also a ruleset for the standardisation of mased games.

Fifthly try and see what apocalypse is really all about. Its not about opening the game up, its about standardisation of bring and battle. Who is it for? It is for in store batle on Saturday mornings with ten or so kiddies a side with a few handfuls of half painted models each. Someone brings in a home made titan or a forgeworld kit they wantr to shjow off. Any army joins up on any side and away you go. Marines and guard necrons and and nids vs marines and chaos and eldar and tau or whatever. Apocalypse open army 'lists' merely formalises and adds RAW to those sorts of battles.

I 100% agree that you can play at home with fluffy armies and enjoy the new warmachine, flyer and gargantuan creatures rules inclusion, and police your own balance. However people have been playing 40K this way for years, I do, and it goes back to how old school wargames were played. however I cannot stress enough that this is a minority approach.
If ever you get Apocalypse tourneys you will get a face full of borken, and the vast majority of other games will play that way too. For those who want to play themed scenarioas with fair balanced armies nothing has changed except the new templates forgeworld already had rules for the big stuff, and in house scenarios were already being played with house rules.

Actually I picked the assault cannon because I love gatling guns. I had a childhood molded by Predator and Jesse Ventura, T2, and the Cobra Rattler. I could give a rat's ass about the rules.

And it's not about playing with balanced armies. The entire concept is predicated around NOT balancing armies and on house rules (not just accepting the possibility of them...but actively recommending them - it's a paradigm shift). I disagree it is for the kids. It is precisely for older gamers with lots of models. There won't be Apocalypse tourneys, and if they are, they'll be Ard Boyz tourneys.

Orlanth, it's fine you see the glass as half-empty, I choose to see it as half full. I get to buy, model, and use kits I've always liked (Baal, Shrike [well, his model is only so-so], Sammael on jetbike), and we get to think beyond current Force Org in a non-basement environment. Imagination-wise...it's a nice release.

I will take that at face value, I like the idea odf ratling guns too. They were SUPPOSED to be random gubns that as Cavatore saif 'you might get too greedy with'. However the way the rules were written they were lethal and safe. Roll a 5 or 6, you stop, roll a 1 or 2 you roll again. stop after two dice anyway. Fluffy, entertaining, but still borken.

So you like chainguns and miniguns, me too.I suppose you could be forgiven for that, but its still not what makes an assault cannon. Heavy 4 rendfing makes the assaulty cnno9n and your oppoent wont see beyond that.

Maybe a different army, but you said you want Carnifex rules, I suspect for a robot with four assault cannon. But why not a twin linked deathspitter and crushing claws model instead. Fluffy intentions aside what you are asking for are dakkafex nidzilla with assault cannon, and maybe ten or so wolf lords as garnish brought in from your other list.

However much fluff you put into it all others would see is borken cheese flavoured munch.


Let me give you an example. Same exmple as before but more fully padded out.

Back in 3.0 I wanted an Eldar Armoured Company. The closest I could get was using Swordwind rules (and a Saim Hann paintjob). the Saim Hann list was restrictive, you either had jetbikes or Vyper spam, and nearly ever other slot was taken away. Swordwind placed Jetbikes and Vypers as Elites, thus allowing me to take three choices, while taking Shining Spears and Swooping Hawks as Fast Attack. To make the list legal I had two troops choices of aspect warriors, in Falcons, and a Farseer on a bike with retinue. My third Heavy Support choice was a Fire Prism for variety.
I had to squeeze to get my fully flying list, but as I had twelve Jetbike models (of various types), ten Swooping Hawks, three tanks and two Vypers on the table; in 2000pts. It would win, it would lose, it would be entertaining, it ould be novel. Sometimes a mindless teenage minimaxer would beat me with his list, think me slowed and give me advice along the lines of 'lol take starcannon and wraithlords m8'.

Now with the new codex my list is comfortably legal, the bikes are cheaper and better and my list is close to mainstream for some. If not for its origins it could be seen as cheesy. Now I always wanted Eldar Armoured Company, purely for fluff, for my themed loved and definately unminimaxed army. Now Gw are gong to sell Falcons in three packs, so its intentional for me to be able to filed them. so my list can become a apocalypse ready 3k list with two packs of Falcons.

With the minor changes I would have my Farseer retinue, Shininjg spear squad, two jetbike squads (16 bikes now), my Vypers, my Swooping Hawks, three Fire Prisms and six Falcon Grav Tanks with a couple of aspect squads between them. It doesnt matter how fluffy my army would claim to be, it would be seen as cheese from hell. Would it be the army I always wanted to play, Eldar in slick vehicles swooping everywhere, yes indeed. But that wont mean squat to my opponent. 'Fluffy, you gotta be kidding, get a fair army or I am not playing you.'

That is an extreme example, a fluffy army that has turned uber cheesy. But many will be heading that way, and under the same illusio9ns that its themed honestly. The vast majority wont even pretend. Please remember that GW intends to sell three-packs of Grav Tanks (IIRC two Falcons and a Fire Prism) the countdown to the total destruction of balance has started. Oh and if the trend continues you may even get a game bonus for taking grav tanks in threes.