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I was just thinking about some of the insanely stupid rules that are in 40k. Now I'm not talking about loopholes, but rather rules that make the game less fun because they don't make sense.

I came up with a couple -

Escalation (Especially if you don't play by the rules that you can come in from the sides)
Chaos Possessed rolling for thier power AFTER deployment.
Chaos squads loosing thier mark when the icon bearer is killed.
DA's and BA's forgetting how to do combat squads when the squad is help in reserve.

BA and DA termies only be able to be fielded in five man squads.

- G

IGOUGO

Escalation is actually a very good rule. I like games that feature escalation, as there's a lot less importance on getting first turn (or at least having enough terrain to hide everything). I'd prefer the option to hold units in reserve in all cases, even without special rules.

Redbeard wrote:Escalation is actually a very good rule. I like games that feature escalation, as there's a lot less importance on getting first turn (or at least having enough terrain to hide everything). I'd prefer the option to hold units in reserve in all cases, even without special rules.

I'd rather see it go away, since it screws with some armies much more than others. Benefitting Mech armies as you point out, like say, Tau or Eldar, where as other mech armies like Sisters or Marines will have a much harder time of it, especially if you can't come in from the sides of the table (which I still don't agree with rules wise, but it does make some armies less slowed).

My only problem with escalation was when some people would try to say that you had to come in from the rear edge. that was BS. It said a board edge in depployment zone. It was especially bad when Eldar would for some to start in reserve.

Eldar Mech armies wouldn't be the near serious threat in escalation if you could actually kill pimped falcons.

And I also like escalation, but there need to be little changes to it so units can come in with their attached vehicles and commanders can come in with their assigned units. There are just some oddities.

Never minded the 5 man 10 man thing, but I come from when there were only fixed squad sizes. I thought it was asinine when they changed it to whatever size you wanted.

FZORGLE!

Well, the eldar falcon rules spring to mind as an Obvious choice.

Repentia rules are really dumb as well, but on the other side of the spectrum from falcons.

DA and BA termies not knowing how to carry a second heavy weapon is on par to retardation as well.
(p.s. Its not balanced, its just dumb)

I would have to whole heartedly agree with Repentias. It could have been a cool unit, with any minor change, but as it was they were worthless. If they could just use faith points they would be more useful. Cool concept, bad rules.

2 HW Weapon termies were a new occurrence. It's not that they don't remember, but someone reminded them that squad organization rules said they shouldn't. 6 of one thing, half dozen of another.

Lash of Slannesh is bad. The funny thing is that most of the issues, could be really easily tweaked to work better. The problem is, GW is stupid to not to. That is probably the most stupid rule of all. "We don't create new rules between Codexes, and we don't put out FAQs (or at least lately). Whatever is blocking those last two should be changed, and it would make the game a whole lot better. Not being the sluggish giant, but nimble.

Toreador wrote:
...someone reminded them that squad organization rules said they shouldn't.

You mean the whole "Fluff=rules" thing?
Yeah, doesnt work.

Balance is not inherent in fluff. Bad choice by GW.

Escalation would be fine if any escalation game was automatically 8 turns instead of 6 before rolling for extra turns.


Skimmers moving fast only requiring 6" of movement instead of actually moving fast like 12+ or more (similar to turbo boosting).

Fast vehicles not getting a vehicle moving fast like bikes and skimmers.

Rending (in it's current popular state).

Vehicles not being able to split fire.

Bad choice to one person is good to another. Terminator squad organization has always been based around 5 terminators, one HW. One codex changed it, and now they are changing it back. I really don't think it had as much to do with balance as them honoring the fluff, or should I say "making us honor the fluff".

Any squad not being able to split fire at appropriate targets.

Stupid rules? How about:

Frag grenades can not be thrown - they uh, make you go at the same time when you charge guys hiding behind a shrub or something.
Krak grenades can not be thrown - they are uh, used in ASSAULT, where you still have a 50% chance of missing with them when they are used... (but they're never used.)
Tanks move twice the speed of a guy walking.
Tanks being unable to ram buildings (or any other model for that matter)
Tanks being unable to run anything over, except stupid guys who might jump in front.
Direct fire ordinance scattering out of LOS.
Having rules for leadership, and then giving almost every army LD9+, modifiers, Fearless or rerolls.
Giving the Grey Knight Captain 1 wound. (Every other HQ in his class has at least 2)

Many others too, but those are just off the top of my head.

Toreador wrote:Bad choice to one person is good to another. Terminator squad organization has always been based around 5 terminators, one HW. One codex changed it, and now they are changing it back. I really don't think it had as much to do with balance as them honoring the fluff, or should I say "making us honor the fluff".

Any squad not being able to split fire at appropriate targets.

It was changed originally to make some squads viable. 5 man terminator squads were not. They remain so.

Balance wise it worked though, for a good reason. Marines when organized into the codex structure are inflexible and will lose on a very regular basis to any army with flexability. See the suckitude of the 2nd edition codex. By the end of the edition it was so patched that it was unrecognizable. The basic fact of the matter is that taxctical inflexiabilty makes an army a poor choice to take. Don't expect to see anything other then mech eldar by the end of next tournament season, given what' coming for the new Codex Space Marines. The basic fact of the matter is the more inflexible that thecodex is the less playable it is.

Any one fielding a five man terminator squad is asking to lose the points for that squad. The only reason anyone cares about two HW on terminators is the effectivness of Assault cannons.

keezus wrote:Stupid rules? How about:

Frag grenades can not be thrown - they uh, make you go at the same time when you charge guys hiding behind a shrub or something.
Krak grenades can not be thrown - they are uh, used in ASSAULT, where you still have a 50% chance of missing with them when they are used... (but they're never used.)
Tanks move twice the speed of a guy walking.
Tanks being unable to ram buildings (or any other model for that matter)
Tanks being unable to run anything over, except stupid guys who might jump in front.
Direct fire ordinance scattering out of LOS.
Having rules for leadership, and then giving almost every army LD9+, modifiers, Fearless or rerolls.
Giving the Grey Knight Captain 1 wound. (Every other HQ in his class has at least 2)

Many others too, but those are just off the top of my head.

Psychic powers being automatically lethal to fail for at least half the armies.

How about cover?

Standing behind a brick wall does nothing to help a space marine if someone sprays an AK-47 in his direction. However it gives him a 50/50 chance of living through a blast from a tank busting laser cannon.

Hellfury wrote:DA and BA termies not knowing how to carry a second heavy weapon is on par to retardation as well.

Methinks someone doesn't remember the glory days of SW termies being armed with massed Cyclone MLs *and* ACs...

I don't think that rules which aren't necessarily "realistic" make them bad. Rules are fine as an abstraction, so making cover into a save or allowing Ordnance to scatter out of LOS may not make perfect "real" sense but they generally represent a concept just fine.

I also think Escalation needs to be kept in the game (and should be used more in tournies). Its just that the Reserves need to be able to enter from the side edges of the deployment zone and they should really change the reserves rule so that you automatically get half of your reserves on turn 2 and the remaining half on turn 3.


But my list of most idiotic rules in 40K would be:


1) Holo-field. Has absolutely no weakness. Enough said.


2) Psychic Hoods. A cheap piece of wargear that can make hundreds of points on the enemy's side mostly worthless and there is no counter to it. Just not good game design.


3) The rule that forces squads to disembark when their transport suffers a penetrating hit. Slows the game down and isn't intuitive.


4) Living Metal. Looong rule to start with. More FAQ clarifications on it. Makes the Monolith nearly indestructible against some armies (Orks) and doesn't do anything against other armies (Tau). There should be a much more elegant way to make a tough vehicle then to have such a long and convoluted rule.


5) Castellan Minefields. A weapon that requires markers to be layed (and remain) on the table is pretty stupid when you consider that you have to find a way to slide them under existing models. Then if you have multiple markers overlapping each other you have an uneven surface, not to mention if there is additional terrain underneath.

It is just a huge, stupid, uneccessary mistake to include this rule and obviously GW agrees as they've tossed out the rule in the newer space marine codices.


6) Fury of the Ancients. A power that shoots all the way across the table and can hit multiple units out of LOS? It is a power that breaks way to many of 40Ks basic rules.


7) ATSKNF & Rites of Battle. ATSKNF makes it a benefit for Space Marines to fail a morale check most of the time, and that is frankly a stupid concept. And the 'Rites of Battle' which gives all Space Marines on the table a Ld of 9 or 10? Utterly ridiculous not because it is too powerful, but just because you may as well just make Space Marines Fearless at that point.


8) Assault Cannons. A weapon that is great at killing both infantry and vehicles is just not a good idea.


9) Rerollable 3+ Invulnerable saves. IMO, allowing invulnerable saves to be better than a 4+ is a bad idea, but allowing 3+ invulnerable saves to then be re-rolled (Eldrad with Fortune, for example) just creates an unfun game. The game should never be purely about the luck of dice-rolling. There should always be a 'counter' for every army's strength.


10) Range and LOS sniping. If casualties can be pulled from anywhere in the unit to represent other models picking up the special weaponry or moving forwad to fill the gaps left by fallen comrades, why exactly can't I pull casualties from out of LOS or beyond range of the enemy's weapons?

Can't I just assume that the models in the front of the unit took the hits and the models out of range/LOS then moved up? Isn't that the whole reason the casaulty removal rules were changed to allow the owning model to pick who dies?

Slowing the game down by making players worry about whether they should keep 'X' model at the front of the unit or 'X' model in or out of LOS so it doesn't accidentally get "sniped" by the opponent is just stupid and needlessly time-consuming.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Hellfury wrote:DA and BA termies not knowing how to carry a second heavy weapon is on par to retardation as well.

Methinks someone doesn't remember the glory days of SW termies being armed with massed Cyclone MLs *and* ACs...

Yes, well in those "Glory days" of second edition, cyclones were death machines and assault cannons had such a high ROF that it was quite embarrassing.

Regardless, the whole issue of termies losing a second heavy is an old one. Assaul cannons are indeed overpowered, but limiting the squad to one while allowing the use of a heavy flamer or a cyclone would be an even better fix than "Players are too stupid, so you only get one heavy weapon because allowing more than one heavy is too confusing to Jervis Jr."

yakface wrote:
I also think Escalation needs to be kept in the game (and should be used more in tournies). Its just that the Reserves need to be able to enter from the side edges of the deployment zone and they should really change the reserves rule so that you automatically get half of your reserves on turn 2 and the remaining half on turn 3.

That would make escalation viable instead of the craps shoot it is now. Plus you would need to play reverse escalation in addition.

What about charging into cover

Sarge we have the advantage if we charge them theyll all be slaughtered"
Negative"
But sarge"
I've got a bad back and the dill weed who uses us rolled 2

Target priority
"Squad, incoming Genestealers! All Bolters, Open fire!"
"But Brother Ayden, there are Rippers much closer heading our way! RIPPERS!"
"There are only 3 of them, broth- BY THE EMPEROR LOOK HOW CLOSE THEY ARE! SHOOT THEM!"

Firing into assaults

Sergeant! The Tyranids have engaged the Chaos Forces over the ridge! Tightly packed, they will be vulnerable to the Basilisk cannon! Request permission to open fire!"
"Permission denied."

"Sir? We could eliminate both foes in one shot!"

"Yes, but that would be... impolite. We wait until one side wins and comes after us to fire

Universal LD 10 from both SM and Guard leadership serves no point their either fearless rerollable or well thats it

For my money the stupidest rule is not requiring players to show they're army list to their opponent.

yakface wrote:1) Holo-field. Has absolutely no weakness. Enough said.

If it was 14, it would have absolutely no weakness.

AV12 is the weakness.

yakface wrote:
3) The rule that forces squads to disembark when their transport suffers a penetrating hit. Slows the game down and isn't intuitive.

Intuitive to what? Or whom?

In real life, you really do get the he** outta dodge when your transport takes a hit into the cabin--assuming you're alive.

In most games I've played, being shot out of your transport is commonplace.

Hellfury wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Hellfury wrote:DA and BA termies not knowing how to carry a second heavy weapon is on par to retardation as well.

Methinks someone doesn't remember the glory days of SW termies being armed with massed Cyclone MLs *and* ACs...

Yes, well in those "Glory days" of second edition, cyclones were death machines and assault cannons had such a high ROF that it was quite embarrassing.

Not to totally disagree with you, but you're being misleading.

Actually, in those 'glory days' Space Marines were crap. Terminators were a joke. Do you remember how many points it took to get said squads of 'I die'? I do.

Cyclones were not death machines, since the two major armies (Marines and Eldar) were immune to it's big blast of almost killy.

Assault Cannons had such a high fire rate, were picked out by everybody for the kill, and only got to shoot against newbies--let's not forget the highly amusing jam.

AC aren't overpowered. I delight in seeing alot of them on the other side of the board, while I rely on more 'mundane' weapons that cut terminators down in great handfuls.

Exarchs owned Space Marines of all kinds, good and evil, always without exception.

So did Vypers.

Ah the good old days of 5 man terminator armies, and 2 turn games.

Glad they're gone.

Having to shoot at something you cant hurt because of target priority. I mean if you have a dreadnaught with av 12, and nothing but str 4 weapons, but a perfectly squishy unit of scouts adjacent to it, you have to roll to pick em out. Any "no possability of damage" results for this rule should automatically override it.

Skimmer shock- come on they run you over. Skimmers shouldnt be able to tank shock anything smaller than monsterous, I mean you KNOW they have to stay a few feet above the ground. When they go overhead hit the dirt. A tank can run you down sure, but most cant benefit from the combination of 24" + movement, a decent armor rating, AND ignore terrain. If you really want to be rediculous why not make it so any damage this vehicle takes you roll 2d6 and take the lowest. Its not ALWAYS falcons, plenty of 4+ devilfish armies are capable of these tactics.

Stelek wrote:AV12 is the weakness.

You are joking right? You haven't just intentionally ignored the problems with Holo-Fields have you?

Stelek wrote:In real life, you really do get the he** outta dodge when your transport takes a hit into the cabin--assuming you're alive.

Say you're a blood-crazed maniac Berzerker of Khorne. You're 10,000 years old and fought right outside the Eternity Gate on Terra during the Horus Heresy. You watched, with you now-ancient eyes, as Sanguinius broke the back of a Bloodthirster over his knee, and fought against your former brothers in arms in an effort to take over the galaxy. You lead a unit of hardened Khornate Warriors, each of them veterans of the Siege of Terra. You have known each other for over 10,000 years, all the way through the Great Crusade right through to the moment you fled to the Eye. You witnessed Kharne splinter your once glorious legion as he fought against both the Emperor's Children and his own men on Skalathrax. You have slain hundreds if not thousands of men with your own hands, and the rusted blood that is caked on your chainaxe can never be cleaned - but you don't want it to be clean anyway, as it is a testament to your millenia of experience and the foul deeds you have done in the service of the glorious God of Blood - Khorne!

But, if someone manages to shoot the combi-bolter off your Rhino, it's time to jump out of your transport!!!!!!!!!!!


The penetrate = disembark rule is IDIOTIC.

BYE

Escalation is an interesting concept, yet poorly executed.

The lack of a phase before the movement phase is not well conceived. There are many things that happen at the beginning of the turn, yet no real order in which they need to be accomplished (rolling for reserves, certain psychic powers, rallying come to mind)

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Stelek wrote:In real life, you really do get the he** outta dodge when your transport takes a hit into the cabin--assuming you're alive.

Say you're a blood-crazed maniac Berzerker of Khorne. You're 10,000 years old and fought right outside the Eternity Gate on Terra during the Horus Heresy. You watched, with you now-ancient eyes, as Sanguinius broke the back of a Bloodthirster over his knee, and fought against your former brothers in arms in an effort to take over the galaxy. You lead a unit of hardened Khornate Warriors, each of them veterans of the Siege of Terra. You have known each other for over 10,000 years, all the way through the Great Crusade right through to the moment you fled to the Eye. You witnessed Kharne splinter your once glorious legion as he fought against both the Emperor's Children and his own men on Skalathrax. You have slain hundreds if not thousands of men with your own hands, and the rusted blood that is caked on your chainaxe can never be cleaned - but you don't want it to be clean anyway, as it is a testament to your millenia of experience and the foul deeds you have done in the service of the glorious God of Blood - Khorne!

But, if someone manages to shoot the combi-bolter off your Rhino, it's time to jump out of your transport!!!!!!!!!!!


The penetrate = disembark rule is IDIOTIC.

BYE

You might add something about the neurochirorgical treatments and the Fact, that you're fearless.

But maybe those khornate maniacs can't tell the difference between the loss of the combi-bolter and the arrival at the battle site...maybe because of the lack of windows?

Talking about Rhinos...those CSM can shoot out of the firepoint. Nothing special, huh? Well...all of them can fire their weapons.
Gav is just a really gifted rules writer. (Remember what gift of chaos turn it's victims into? )

yakface wrote:I don't think that rules which aren't necessarily "realistic" make them bad. Rules are fine as an abstraction, so making cover into a save or allowing Ordnance to scatter out of LOS may not make perfect "real" sense but they generally represent a concept just fine.

Agree with this and most of your points, especially because I see 40k people whining about why so-and-so doesn't work a certain way yet I've never seen a chess player whine that his towers and cranky old men can move faster than his footsoldiers. However, why did you also include "not intuitive" for #3 because it sounds like another "this isn't real!" complaint.

"There are only 3 of them, broth- BY THE EMPEROR LOOK HOW CLOSE THEY ARE! SHOOT THEM!"

Ha, if those are marines with their stupid rites of battle rule they deserve to shoot at rippers are failing a Ld10 roll.