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Well I really have just recently begun playing marines but I think I have a decent grasp as to what it takes to make a competitive list. I stress the word competitive, I have read on what some call cheese and thats not really what I mean. I also am not going to just make a list and say here it is, the uber list. What I am doing with this thread is merely putting down my findings thus far as to what makes up a competitive marine army list, more to the point, what are the key units.

I will start with the core of the army, the tactical squad. Nothing new to most people but, I have read many post that say the same thing, 6 man las/plas. Well I actually have played what so many swear by, and I see now what the fuss is over. This is a key unit, that can shoot at anything and be effective. They only thing I would do to tweak it is add 2 more marines but the concept is the same.

The next unit is actually a surprise to me because I never realized how powerful it was, the 6-8 man heavy bolter devastator squad with all 4 HBs. Although it cant take on every thing, what it can deal with it does so possibly better than a tactical squad, especially light infantry. I underestimated this unit when I first started playing marines but I was shocked has to how those HBs hurt my 6 man las/plas team!

The last unit I have grown to respect is the Jump troops with a chaplain HQ. With all the shooty units this is a must for a marine list. And this is where the power fist can, in my opinion, reak the most havoc! But this group I have found even though a fearless unit needs to be greater in numbers, say 7 assault marines at less with the chappy bringing them to 8 strong.

These 3 units are from what I have discovered this far, the key units that make up a marine army, I have just received a predator and have HIGH hopes for this tank. I am looking forward to decking it out with magnets and finding the most effective version as well as seeing how well it works itself into a marine list. One more thing I would like to point out is that I am NEW to marines and am just stating what seems like the best to me. I am sure there are some pros or vets out there who argue my findings( and I hope you do so that I can learn more!) and prove me wrong and set me straight! This post is kind of like a progress report of my marine experience thus far.

Please comment and share your key units too!

So far you have hit the nail on the head. las/plas squads are great. Feel free to bulk up their numbers if you find that it is effective for you. Most people prefer to just rely on the fact that they never break (or auto rally if they do) and use the points saved on the 2 other members to count towards another squad with more heavy/special weapons.

8 is, in fact, the magic number for assault squads. Enough guys to take some casualties and still be effective. Enough guys to do a lot of damage when they hit, but not so many guys that the squad becomes unwieldy. Some people run with 8 and a chaplain for a total of 9. If you have the points, I would suggest putting a power fist on the chaplain so that you have the option of power weapon or power fist when you hit combat. The fist will do you a lot of good if you run up against other characters, nid zilla or lots of tanks. The power weapon is better for most other situations.

If you are going to run a predator, there are 2 configurations worth looking into. The auto cannon / heavy bolter version is good at killing troops. Lost of high strength shots on a platform that can fire all weapons on the move is always good. The only down side is a lack of AP. The other version is the 3 las cannon variant. This is good at killing tanks and monstrous creatures. The down side is its cost and lack of mobility. In general though, if you are going to bring tanks to the table, you should bring several or none. Bringing just one or two gives your opponent targets to concentrate their anti tank firepower on and kill. If you have many tanks, they don't have enough anti tank to deal with it all and their normal weapons tend to be wasted since they don't have much in the way of troops to shoot at. On the other hand, if you bring no tanks, their anti tank power is wasted since you have no takes for them to target.

Something you may want to explore is the assault cannon. With the current rending rules, this weapon is insane. Squads of land speeders with assault cannon and heavy bolter can be fielded with great effect. 5 man terminator squads with twin assault cannons are also very effective (so long as you resist the urge to deep strike them). Dreadnaughts with assault cannons are kind of so-so units but can be useful if you are fielding lots of tanks or a drop pod army.

well unfortunately you already bought the predator, because i'd say leave it at home. it can be good, but a unit of marines with lascannons can be much more survivable and potentially do more damage all over the board.

anyway i like your choices, but why not make the assault squad a full 10 men and then the chaplain? they live way longer and can pack a much bigger punch that way, of course that's just me

Bastirous666 wrote:well unfortunately you already bought the predator, because i'd say leave it at home. it can be good, but a unit of marines with lascannons can be much more survivable and potentially do more damage all over the board.

anyway i like your choices, but why not make the assault squad a full 10 men and then the chaplain? they live way longer and can pack a much bigger punch that way, of course that's just me

You're talking about a unit of devs with lascannons? You should never take this. First off, they're simply too expensive in dev squads, 4 lascannons in a 6 man squad is double what you'd pay for a pred. Second, the point of a pred is that you have mobility. Those dev squads are useless if he keeps his tanks out of LOS of them.

the preds don't really have mobility, sure they can move 6" and fire one lascannon but they pop easier and they are way to expensive to be firing only one lascannon a turn to be slightly more mobile. if they move 12" then they are being totally wasted, and yes i know devs are more expensive, but they are better with anti infantry weapons, and the anti tank will stay in the 6-8 man las/plas squads that he already said he'd be using.

therefore the las/plas squads get spread around the field to keep the coverage total so no enemy can pick at his army without lascannon retribution and then the anti infantry dev squads can make covering fire arcs to protect his las/plas squads from assault etc. depending on the opponent.

You should consider an Epistolary with a jump pack to accompany the Assault Squad instead. Be sure to give him Veil of Time. Against low Ld armies Fear of the Darkness is a good idea for your second power, and against MEQs the original power Storm of the Emperor's Wrath is quite useful in the turn before you assault. Anyhow, with Veil of Time he can re-roll absolutely everything, including a Perils of the Warp roll if he rolls a 12. This makes him an absolute CC monster that everybody needs to be afraid of.

Storm sucks. Fear is better in a pod, plus it's counterproductive with an Assault squad: you don't want to get yourself stuck in the open by scaring away the guys you were going to assault! FotA is a better second power here by far.

Hmm I would have thought that for anti-infantry one would take Whirlwinds over Heavy Bolter Dev squads as they pack much more firepower for the pts cost.

Admittedly you could field 3 Whirlies and then use traits to add Dev squads too altho I would think that Missiles would be more useful than Heavy Bolters most of the time.

Storm is high AP. If you don't have many points to spare, and you are fighting SOB then it could just have it's use.

Who the hell tools to fight SoB? I mean, really! Plus they get a special save, in case you forgot, and can still go invul.

That's not the main point, though. The main point is that a 12" shooting power had better be damn good to justify itself, because it isn't going to get many uses per game. And no, an armour-piercing frag missile blast is nowhere near good enough. For a tiny amount of extra points, you could be inflicting LoS-ignoring line damage from turn one instead. It's mad to stick with Storm.

If I played Marines competitively again, I'd say that 3 Whirlwinds are necessary to compete now.

It lets you deal with Stealers/Raveners fairly effectively, as well as Ork Hordes, and just about any Assault Threat.

It's also a great way to counter Harlies coming out of a Falcon, but you have to use the Minefield template instead of the normal one.

After that you're looking at Las/Plas, 5 Termies w/ 2 Acannons, Speeders, and then an Assault Squad to taste for being "competitive". There are variants like Podding Mraines, but generally I found the ones that start on the table to be the most effective.

Still. If you don't have many points to spare, it might, and just might, find a teeny tiny use. Plus, it's free

It's not free any more than a Chaplain's Crozius is. It's part of the package you're paying for.

Everything has a use. Everything also has an opportunity cost. Where the opportunity cost outweighs the use, the option sucks. Storm of the Emperor sucks.

Triple Whirlies is such a good and cheap horde counter that you can spend the rest of your points on high S weapons. Since I play Tiggy as having a 24'' FoTD it becomes a bit nuts when you plant mines and make your opponents flee through them!

I start to get the feeling that "Two daemons in a bar" and "tegeus-Cromis" is one schizophrenic person arguing with himself. Wherever the one is, the other is quick to follow.

Greets
Schepp himself

I'd be careful about overinvesting in assault-cannon armed units. They are incredibly effective now, but I think the changes in 5th edition will tone it down significantly. Might be best to stick with more standard units for the present.

I'm a fairly new player (SM) as well and figured I'd throw a few of my thoughts into the mix

Chappy w/ Adamantium mantle and Thunder Hammer (attached to assult Marines) to work as an MC/ charracter killer

Assult termies with claws (deepstruck) to take out any SM killers (dark reapers, my main opponent plays eldar and uses a Wraithlord bum rush w/ Dark REaper cover fire)

keeping the dev squads down to 5 men (4 w/hvy weps and sarge) and at the outside edges of the battle the longer reange lets them fire into the central cluster-f**k to fairly good effect without getting slaughtered due to small numbers
maybe use missle launchers and las for an anti-tank unit (not sure on proporsions here) to allow for anti-vehicle (krak missiles and las) and anti-mob (frag missiles) at less cost then the whirlwinds (in both $ and pts)

any thoughts on these ideas as well? am I off, or are these good ideas as well.

You're mostly off.

Chappy works.

Assault Termies have never gotten into CC with my guys before unless they were already locked. How often do you DS within 6" of the target, and can you afford the risk of trying? If you land any further than that, all the intended victims need to do is move away.

5-men with 4 heavies? Absurd. You need more ablatives than that. It's also a terrible waste to use frag missiles on hordes when you've got one or more las mixed in. Stick to all missiles (las is too expensive in dev squads; save that for your tacs). Lastly, a Whirlwind is cheaper (points-wise) than even the cheapest Dev squad.

Shooty army from Hell marines is easy, just take the trait that gives you devs as elites and the other one that gives you the ability to give squads tankhunter abilities. Just fill out the rest with 6 las/plas (you can even drop the plas) and your good to go. That way your throwing out 54 str 5 shots a turn and 6 las cannons that get +1 when working against armor and your HBs also get +1 against armor. Pretty much it lets you eat most things for breakfast. Especially orcs and nidz. Umm yummy!

Doesn't work very against MC nids, sadly.

Lots of shots with heavy bolters don't take down 3+ MC reliably, and quite a lot of people run 2+ save MC which HB just bounce off of.

This is why a unit(s) with assault cannons must find it's way into a competitive list. Even with 5th rules assault cannons still from what I see will be good for a space marine army do to the number of shots for light infantry killing power. If they give the hit on a 6 ap1 that will still be a good thing for TRYING to wound a MC but as you have said not reliable. I would say marines mounted in a rhino with plasma guns would help but then you would be forced to take lots of armor because only 1-2 rhinos = 0 rhinos after turn 1.

Competitive marines probably involves 3 Whirlies and

Devs with 4 Missiles each. Missiles handle the elite Fexes, heavy infantry and light vehicles and also Horde lists. Tacs will have Las/Plas for heavier vehicles/TMCs and heavy infantry. 3 Whirlies round out the anti-horde and anti-rush with Castellans.

Termies are great at the moment, especially with tank hunter. Maybe not in 5e tho. When 5e comes around competitive would probably involve painting your marines red, hording them with rhinos and rushing the opponent. Maybe that was 3e.

I still can't believe nobody has mentioned vindicators. The tank is relatively cheap and capable of dealing with every conceivable thing on the table. Is it a target? Sure, but what isn't? Running 2 or 3 of them is certainly as viable as 3 whirlwinds, albeit a bit more expensive and short ranged. It's easy to sit here and theoryhammer about what will counter what, but the reality of the situation is that your units are only as effective as you let them be.

Vindies are fine, but they require that you field them en masse and basically build your army around them. Whirlwinds are cheap enough that they can just be chucked in almost without a second thought; you just need to make sure you have sufficient AT outside of your HS section (which is pretty much the default for SMs anyway).

Your last sentence ought to be taken out back and shot. It sounds nice, but says nothing meaningful. Good units aren't so good if you use them stupidly? Wow, you don't say.

I think that Marines can really be competative with the right mix. I don't think it is so much the list as it is the person who is playing them. Plenty of lascannons is always nice. Plasma guns are also very competative. Remember that for the points the basic marine is arguably the best basic trooper in the game. Have fun with your list and build something that can handle a little bit of everything. But remember in a tournament the odds are you will be faceing a lot of power armour armies. So I would mainly build a list that can handle that.

I would recommend a minimum of 6 Lascannons, 4 Plasma Guns, and 1 or 2 whirlwind. And maybe a Dev squad with all heavy bolters. This gives you a lot of fire power. Next I would add a dedicated assault unit for capturing objects and if something gets into you lines you can counter attack. I would also recommend taking a Commander. That Ld10 will allow you to pass most of your priority checks. This is a good core. I don't know just my 2 cents.

Remember that for the points the basic marine is arguably the best basic trooper in the game.

That stopped being the case with the new Ork codex. Is a Marine worth 2.5 Orks? Don't think so.

SoBs would also be better than Marines if they had the same weapons and squad options. 80 point BS4 3+ Sv. las/plas? Yes please!

One can dream.

DE Warriors are still pretty good, considering their wide range of options.

I'd play Sisters again if they got move-and-fire multimeltas.

Don't really want them to be marine copies, marines are boring and Sisters have potential. Plastic Sisters would be uber.

I would have to go with Ork Boyz too as the best basic trooper. 30 Orks with 3 Rokkits and PK Nob is probably one of the best basic troops in the game.

Well of course Sisters las/plas would be a horrendous idea fun-wise, but it makes my mouth water cheese-wise, that's all.

What would be fun about it? It's so dull and predictable.