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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I will preface this thread by stating I have read the other threads that rapidly deteriorate into "I am the best gamer/this army is worthless", please DO NOT bring that here.

I am very interested in playing a new demon army. I really like the minis (well, I am getting used to the new Daemonettes) and the freedom to paint them any way I choose. I am a relatively competative player and would like to build an army or two that can hold it's own on a table against most opponents (note that I did not say would beat every opponent). Since the new 'dex is available for review at your local GW store, what have you all seen that would be fun and competative?

I have already started painting Tzeentch (see this thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/210658.page ) and was leaning toward adding Khorne as a secondary power to add some punch in HTH. My list was looking something like this:

LoC
Bloodthirster
9 Horrors + Changeling
9 Horrors + Icon
9 Horrors + Icon
9 Horrors
8 Bloodletters
8 Bloodletters
3 Demon Princes

I picked up this months issue of WD and got a look at the Bloodcrusher model and that looks sweet! Maybe add a small unit of those and a Tzeentch Flamer unit to round off. What about the screamers for tank hunting?

Anyone have any constructive comments or suggestions?

Thanks

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/04/23 13:09:53


 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




I've been lucky enough to have the codex already (don't ask how!) and there are plenty of options to make us quite competitive.

Defo the screamers for tank hunting. They are jetbikes armed with melta bombs. There stats are pretty much useless for anything else!

I also think Tzeentch GD's are going to be common and powerful. With MC's being able to fire two weapons and Tzeentch able to purchase master of sorcery (being able to use an extra shooting ability), three shooting will be extremely powerful especially when they have the We are legion gift (Can shoot at different targets).

Ppl say that the list doesn't have anti armour, but if you're clever with your lists I don't think it'll be too problematic. Use also can get breath of chaos, a template weapon which on a 4+ causes automatic glacing on a vehicle. Get lucky with a 6 you never know!
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Jimbo, what options are there for anti-tank (assuming V5 here and that rending is effectively nerfed in a big way).

*defiler
*MC with a big stick
*screamer (what do they do?)
*what else?


I’ve been thinking of a force weighted towards Khorne with bloodletters and demonettes, with a Khorne GD, two defilers, and two heralds (Khorne and Tzeentch). Nurglings to soak up fire or harass enemy units as suiciders, whilst dropping in. I cannot be more definitive as I do not have the codex yet and only glanced so far.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Jfrazell, I've not got a copy of the codex on me at the mo so I will tell you stuff that I know for sure.

With the soulgrinder it does have the option of a S10 AP1 weapon (vomit) but the problem with it is the soul grinder is HUGE! Pie plates are just gonna love and own it!
Screamers just have warp jaws (melta bombs) and they don't have any special weapons apart from that. The bonus is it acts as a jetbike. Assault wise I wouldn't take them, too many better options.

Other ideas for any armour come from the HQ MC's. Most are strength 7 and with wings you should be able to catch up with most vehicles (2D6+7 = dead tank!). Also bolt of change gift (S8 AP1) on a lot of squads and daemon princes should bring all but the heavest armour down. Breath of chaos should help too if close enough.

You're right with Nurgle. If you deepstrike them close enough with large numbers they should take some of the heat of other models. If you're really feeling mean put a GUO near the lines with the p'bearers. Especially the special character GUO. He's just mean with 6 wounds and template carnage!
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Coolio.

Of course, depending on how rending finally comes out that may stikll be a decent option as well.

May look into screamers. Are they effective against MCs/troops?

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Doesn't look like it. Just anything with an AV. Might be really good to grab an objective/ table quarter with a last minute turbo boost!
   
Made in sg
Executing Exarch





Maybe for a couple of months, jimbo.

Wehrkind wrote:Sounds like a lot, but with a little practice I can do ~7-8 girls in 2-3 hours. Probably less if the cat and wife didn't want attention in that time.
 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Chameleon Skink



Los Angeles

I think Bolt of Tz is going to be the best bet for AT, I'm going to try non winged DP's with it and min sized horror groups with it.

Screams aren't all that expensive, so if you have a free FA slot, they aren't bad having as a suicide unit or to go tank hunting against slower Imperial stuff. They just don't have much of a shot against skimmers.

The force I am working on so far, for a 2000 point RTT in May is roughly GUO, KoS, 8 x Bloodletters w/ Icon, 8 x Bloodletters w/Icon, 15 Daemonetttes w/ Icon, 5 x Horrors with Bolt of Tz, 5 x Horrors w/ Bolt of Tz, 7 Plaguebearers w/ Icon, 5 x Seekers, 10 x Fleshhounds, 2 x Fiends, 2 x Bloodcrushers, Soul grinder w/ Phlegm, DP w/ Mark of Tz and bolt of Tz.

Never attribute to malice which can rightly be explained by stupidity.


Tecate Light: When you want the taste of water but the calories of beer.  
   
Made in us
Sneaky Kommando





Even if you are upgrading your princes with strength, they are still a poor choice. You get an expensive unit that can't do a whole lot of damage to infantry or tanks due to limited attacks/strength. I think you'd be better off with at least one soul grinder. Or like you were saying some blood crushers instead. Being T5, the DP is exceedingly easy to kill.

Epic Fail 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




I do not know the points right now and can't get to the book for a while, however I like the idea of combining the two daemon (Tzeentch and Khorne) more integrally than just Tzeentch + Bloodthirster as the fluff suggests.

I would consider 10-man Bloodletter units with one having an Icon.

I would consider having the DP's walk, but give them armor and maybe a decent shooting power. I think the Soulgrinder is a better choice from a powergamer standpoint.

It appears Tzeentch is in group one and Khorne is in group two. I like the idea of giving one unit of Bloodletters an icon in group two just in case you roll low and Khorne has to come in first.

The Bloodcrusher models do look cool and their stats aren't to bad for the points. I would pick up some just to have and see later if you want to start including them in your lists.
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




I think Tzeench is going to be an important part of any daemon army. The ability of Warpfire and Bolt of Change is too good to pass up! The elite Flamers also all have breath of chaos (template, wound on a 4+, no armour and cover saves) and are jump infantry.I can see these being really powerful if they can survive DS, being able to clear large chunks of troops. If backed up with daemonettes or seekers to help with assaults, it will be nasty! I think the secret of this army is support.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Los Angeles, CA

jimbo the grey wrote:I think the secret of this army is support.


It doesn't seem that way at first. But my findings are the same. I am designing a list with 5th edition in mind, and i focused on multiple very large troop units. Facing down an ork horde with almost non-existent support was next to impossible, the combination of shooting and charging with a 250 point ork unit was too much for anything to handle even 27 wounds of nurglings. Units got smaller on my end, and more output is being added. This weekend can't come fast enough. i'm ready for another round of playtest games, and I'll be cutting points in troops for things that can actually kill things on the turn they land. flamers/horrors/possibly even soulgrinders. demonettes are still in though. they are excellent.

Please check out my current project blog

Feel free to PM me to talk about your list ideas....

The Sprue Posse Gaming Club 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

WHat are thoughts on maxing the soulgrinders? Do they last a turn?

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






.................................... Searching for Iscandar

Soulgrinders last against armies without excellent anti-tank.

So Tau, Eldar with TL BL or WL BL (uncommon enough), and most Imperial forces with lascannons can handle soulgrinders.

Orks can't kill them in shooting very easily, but they can take them out in CC, so against Orks alot of people run their grinders at max range and use them for crowd control.

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




That was one question I had as well - to choose the Soulgrinders or the DPs?

DPs:
Decent mobility with wings
Multi-wound so as to not die to single lascannon fire
Decent HTH (with a 4++ save - is it 3++ for Tzeentch?)
Access to some shooting
Not as large as a SG

SGs:
Fleet is nice (better if rumored fleet/assault in 5th)
AV 13 is not bad (4 to glance and most of table is ignored?)
Access to shooting
Fewer attacks in HTH - susseptable to hiden powerfist
Very large for deep strike


The more I think about it, I like the added HTH units of Bloodletters and Crushers. I am still thinking oldschool trying to stay with one power, this book just isn't designed to work this way.

Is it better to fill the FOC with many small units (2 Crushers, 3 Flamers, 6 Horrors, etc..) or get some larger tarpit type units like nurglings or run fewer but larger demon units? The game is going more objective based and scoring units will count until there is nobody left.

What about the 5 MC list? Is that too many? Could I get away with 4?

I played a game at Adepticon against a chaos player running a DP and a Lord on bike (I played Ultramarines) I managed to take down the DP, but his lord took out half (or more) of my forces. It seems that if you could get even one of the GDs or DPs into the opponents lines they start causing issues that are difficult to combat. Trick is getting them in the lines. Using multiple threats may give your opponent too many things to eliminate before this happens.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






.................................... Searching for Iscandar

Zero_Cool wrote:Using multiple threats may give your opponent too many things to eliminate before this happens.


Exactly.

Unlike a CSM force, which can put down alot of 'needs heavy weapon fire' stuff on the board...a Demon force doesn't since they are split in half.

Trying to 'go big' with 5 MC in one half and demons in the other...will cost you alot of games as even with 2 greater demons and 3 soulgrinders coming down; the soulgrinders will eat the heavy weapons fire and the greater demons will eat everything else. If you try and deploy further back, you'll still eat alot of fire and you'd better get a good drop from your reserve demons on turn 2 or you're going to give away a couple units a turn and lose very badly.

Question to keep in mind: Why waste lascannon fire on the regular demons? Unlike Obliterators, you can't instant kill any of them, so just putting normal shots into them is required. So you can quite easily focus your fire where needed, as there are no real units you cannot hurt in the list with any weapon--only Soulgrinders really fit that category. Charging them into combat isn't something I'd recommend. IC's will just power fist you to death.

The only real 'hard nuts' in a demon army are plague bearers, and what happens to plague bearers if there are dreadnoughts around? Yes, it's not pretty. Unlike 4th, which has killed off most non-drop pod dreads; 5th will see more armies with them. It's not uncommon to have a 4th edition balanced army with 3 lascannons in it; and when your one shot at taking out a land raider gets cover saved...you'll realize it's a whole new way of thinking. Mostly new, anyway.

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Stelek wrote:Question to keep in mind: Why waste lascannon fire on the regular demons? Unlike Obliterators, you can't instant kill any of them, so just putting normal shots into them is required. So you can quite easily focus your fire where needed, as there are no real units you cannot hurt in the list with any weapon--only Soulgrinders really fit that category. Charging them into combat isn't something I'd recommend. IC's will just power fist you to death.


That was my thought in regard to the Soul Grinders - they are really the only "tank" type unit in the list so any/every anti-tank weapon in the opponents army will be ready to go at it. Without an invulnerable save these can go down with one shot where as a DP has multiple wounds and an Inv save.

However, no armor eliminates my opponents need to choose either shooting the heavy weapon the unit is carrying at the tank or fire the whole unit at a squad of demons.

But if my opponent is shooting the heavy at the SG, he is not shooting at the demons. Toss up?

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Getting my broom incase there is shenanigans.

You want Soulgrinders in your army rather then DP.

The reason why is that you want the threat of the big pie plate to get your opponent to spread out. If they pack into a corner in standard anti-deep striking formation they will be hard to dig out, and they can apply all of there fire power against you.

If you get them to spread out it will greatly diminish their return fire power.


 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Chameleon Skink



Los Angeles

I agree with Blackmoor, mostly.

I still plan on at least 1 DP in my army over 1000 points, but I will definitely take a Soulgrinder before a DP and if I take 3 Heavy supports, it's going to be 2 SG and 1 DP.

Pie plate makes your opp suffer for castling up, which is nice to be able to do since the army has to come in deepstriking. However, I do like a DP with either mark of Tz or Mark of Nurgle to take on those hordes of boyz. DP is going to last longer in CC against a PK/Pfist than a Soulgrinder, with mark of Tz you get a bonus anti-armor weapon with bolt, with nurgle you can get the gift (I believe ) that does a str 2 hit to all enemies within 6", which against a horde, is damn nice.

Soulgrinder is better overall than the DP and definitely worth taking, but hey, I like my DP's.

Never attribute to malice which can rightly be explained by stupidity.


Tecate Light: When you want the taste of water but the calories of beer.  
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Blackmoor wrote:You want Soulgrinders in your army rather then DP.

The reason why is that you want the threat of the big pie plate to get your opponent to spread out. If they pack into a corner in standard anti-deep striking formation they will be hard to dig out, and they can apply all of there fire power against you.

If you get them to spread out it will greatly diminish their return fire power.


Also, do you feel that you definitely don't want any DP at all in a demons army? I feel like the argument of which of the two is better is a bit pointless without putting them in the context of an actual army list. Are you saying you would never want to field a DP? I haven't seen the unit costs yet, but I'm somewhat doubtful that it's a simple auto include 3x SG into a "competitive" list.

I think if you can use your list to limit the amount of fire directed towards your soulgrinders, then they can have a much bigger impact.

Also, what do people think is a good unit size for the different troops choices? This question obviously hinges upon how you split your force. It seems to me that you would want to have your most survivable units drop down first, which should hopefully enable your more fragile stuff to do what it needs to when it comes in. I think a very interest option for the split is to have half of your units be very cheap points wise, while having a few large, resilient units coming in on your turn one.

For example, heralds on disks and screamers or flamers(min sized), could take up half of your 'units', while large plaguebearer, bloodcrusher, or virtually anything else you want takes up the other half. This way you aren't actually fighting half your army against all of theirs, it's more of two thirds against an entire army.

I find this a much better strategy than trying to split your army evenly. If you get the wrong half of your army, just make certain the other half is mobile enough to hide until the heavy hitters show up, and then engage.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






.................................... Searching for Iscandar

Sadly, what some people believe is a good use of soulgrinder is in fact not why you'd use them. Against demons, you do not, in fact, want to castle tightly.

You want to spread out and fill your entire deployment zone, and if you've got infiltrators, fill out from your deployment zone as much as possible.

Sitting in a box in the corner is stupid. You need to minimize the area the demons can drop, and maximize your own space to retreat into.

This means of course being spread out to maximum dispersion, so the flamers and the soulgrinders don't hurt nearly so bad as they could; and are in effect negated.

Putting your troops first with their transports in the rear, with a clear movement path for them to embark; allows you to fill a very large space and then vacate it. Putting an extra 12" between you and where the demons dropped can often delay their turn 2 assault to turn 3.

I guess you'll just have to see for yourselves.

   
Made in nz
Fresh-Faced New User




Dunedin, New Zealand

Have played one game with them. Stand outs were:
Nurglings - fantastic just tie units up and so hard to kill with no ID.
Soul grinder - very hard to kill (had several oblits sniping for 3 turns).
Bloodcrushers - very hard to kill and monsters in combat.
Khorne is what I will be building an army around.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/04/30 10:35:56


The Champ is here 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control






Plano, Texas

Does anyone else think that the icons are just way to expensive?
Also don't bloodcrushers seem overpriced compared to say 2 bloodletters?

I had forgot about the Nurglings Immunity to ID when I read the book.

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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Los Angeles, CA

Played a half dozen games this weekend. Had to scrap my initial list pretty quickly. This is what I went to next.. It is really powerful.

bloodthirster with plasma pistol and +1 strength

keeper of secrets with hit and run and mini-lash

3x flamers

3x flamers

10x plaguebearers with icon

10x plaguebearers with icon

6x nurglings

5x nurglings

3x1 demon prince mark of tzeentch multi-melta multi-tracker ap3 heavy bolter

(sorry for the analogous upgrade descriptions but not enough people know what the demonic gifts do yet)

I was usually making my DMA (demonic assault, will that acronym stick?) the 5 MCs and a flamer. When I got it, I'd drop the greater demons around 12ish inches away from the enemy, the princes tried to land more like 15-18". The princes would target transports as a priority, especially when i got first turn and skimmers had no 5+. If I fail my DMA, I'd drop the plaguebearers and nurglings a bit further back, and run them. Depending on what my opponents gameplan was, I just got the nurgle stuff over to objectives, which I made sure to place in terrain...

blah blah blah, I'm getting a little too detailed, basically, you can't shoot nurglings if they are in terrain. In 5th edition, they will get to an objective thats in cover, then 'take cover' for a 2+ cover save. The plague bearers will do the same for a 3+ cover followed by a FNP. You chill out score what you can and DS your MCs onto your icons, get them in a position to charge scoring units/kill transports, and slow-play.

To the OP. I like your HQ, Depending on how you gift out your princes i like your heavy support. You may find that the bloodletters have a difficult time not getting shot up before they can do any real damage. Horrors help your game against orks, but plagebearers also do very well against orks. I think if you are going to go that heavy into horrors you may want your LOC to be fateweaver. That'll make your horrors a real PITA to kill off.

Please check out my current project blog

Feel free to PM me to talk about your list ideas....

The Sprue Posse Gaming Club 
   
Made in us
Khorne Veteran Marine with Chain-Axe




Mississippi

I ordered my codex today from the war store. Should be here in a day or 2. Playing csm in a big apocalypse Saturday and I'm psyched to get my daemons back! Question is: are csm or daemon codex dps better? Do I run 2 10 man bloodletter squads or 1 big 20 man squad? Gonna be running 3000 points of csm and have a bloodthirster and 20 bloodletters from the glory days of the last codex.
   
Made in sg
Executing Exarch





CSM DPs are much better. Fact.

Wehrkind wrote:Sounds like a lot, but with a little practice I can do ~7-8 girls in 2-3 hours. Probably less if the cat and wife didn't want attention in that time.
 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block





Indeed. With CSM my winged DP is somewhere around 170 pts. With Daemons my tooled-up winged Slaanesh DP is like 285 pts. He dies to shooting just as easily, and with the 1st half/2nd half thing as well as DS it can be hard to get him where you want.

For their points I'd say Soul Grinders are the superior choice.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I had originally thought to run the 3 DPs with MoTz and wings for 165 points each. Wings are just flat out pricey for what they do though. I think I would save the extra 180 points and give them a shooting attack and spend more points on an additional unit of demons

Has anyone (ok, I know Stelek has) tried a demon horde list? No MCs and lots and lots of troop type units. How does that one fair?
   
Made in us
Stalwart Dark Angels Space Marine




Murfreesboro

From what I have seen with the new Demon army you should have a lot of scoring units. Run as manny DP and GD as you can and then run Demonettes and other little things. Basically have a lot of scoring units that can move really fast. You get deepstike on first turn and you don't really know which half of your army is coming in. You can't immediattly assault so you have to rely on survivability. The more units you run the more you can survive. After the first shooting phase your stuff comes in regular deepstike. I wouldn't worry about icons seeing as in 5th deepstikeing will become a lot safer then it is now. Also I would take plaugebears they just move to slow and aren't that great in hand to hand. The only will ever have one attack because they are slow and purposeful. I think that if you have enough stuff you can really kick some peoples ass.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/05/06 16:05:39


I've always followed my father's advice: he told me, first to always keep my word and, second, to never insult anybody unintentionally. If I insult you, you can be goddamn sure I intend to." 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






.................................... Searching for Iscandar

I said the demon horde supported by heralds was quite the danger. Alot of armies just can't kill enough.

Friendly armies in particular.

Tournament armies, however, can deal with the horde.

   
 
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