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As requested, a different way of doing things.

And that's effective.

Oh boy.

Keep everything in reserve.

Chosen go in the Land Raiders. They will outflank.

Terminator Sorcerors and Summoned Lessers come in off the Icons (which means off the Land Raiders).

This will be a surprise since you won't have anything on the table.

Gee, found a use for termie sorcs and summoned lessers all in the same army.

=========================

2000 Pts - Chaos Marines Roster - Infiltrating Land Raiders

1 Chaos Terminator Sorceror @ 140 Pts
Force Weapon (x1); Twin Linked Bolter (x1); Lash of Submission; Mark of Slaanesh

1 Chaos Terminator Sorceror @ 140 Pts
Force Weapon (x1); Twin Linked Bolter (x1); Lash of Submission; Mark of Slaanesh

5 Plague Marines @ 135 Pts
Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon; Bolter; Meltagun (x2); Blight Grenades; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Fearless; Feel No Pain; Mark of Nurgle

5 Plague Marines @ 135 Pts
Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon; Bolter; Meltagun (x2); Blight Grenades; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Fearless; Feel No Pain; Mark of Nurgle

7 Chosen @ 239 Pts (EDIT: Add Icon Glory so Demons do something!)
Bolt Pistol (x5); Bolter (x4); Close Combat Weapon (x5); Lightning Claws (pair) (x2); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Melta Bombs (x2); Infiltrate
1 Aspiring Champion @ [53] Pts
Bolt Pistol (x1); Bolter (x1); Power Fist; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Infiltrate

7 Chosen @ 239 Pts
Bolt Pistol (x5); Bolter (x3); Close Combat Weapon (x5); Flamer; Flamer (x1); Lightning Claws (pair) (x2); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Melta Bombs (x2); Infiltrate
1 Aspiring Champion @ [53] Pts
Bolt Pistol (x1); Bolter (x1); Power Fist; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Infiltrate

7 Chosen @ 239 Pts
Bolt Pistol (x5); Bolter (x3); Close Combat Weapon (x5); Flamer; Flamer (x1); Lightning Claws (pair) (x2); Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Melta Bombs (x2); Infiltrate
1 Aspiring Champion @ [53] Pts
Bolt Pistol (x1); Bolter (x1); Power Fist; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Infiltrate

1 Land Raider @ 220 Pts
Twin Linked Heavy Bolter; Twin Linked Lascannon Sponson (x2); Searchlight; Smoke Launchers

1 Land Raider @ 220 Pts
Twin Linked Heavy Bolter; Twin Linked Lascannon Sponson (x2); Searchlight; Smoke Launchers

1 Land Raider @ 220 Pts
Twin Linked Heavy Bolter; Twin Linked Lascannon Sponson (x2); Searchlight; Smoke Launchers

5 Summoned Lesser Daemon @ 65 Pts [EDIT: Delete 1 lesser demon for a icon]
Close Combat Weapon; Fearless

Total Roster Cost: 2000

Stelek wrote:

Chosen go in the Land Raiders. They will outflank.

Can they outflank while in the Land Raider if it isn't a dedicated transport?

Stelek wrote:
This will be a surprise since you won't have anything on the table.


=========================


5 Plague Marines @ 135 Pts
Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon; Bolter; Meltagun (x2); Blight Grenades; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Fearless; Feel No Pain; Mark of Nurgle

5 Plague Marines @ 135 Pts
Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon; Bolter; Meltagun (x2); Blight Grenades; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Fearless; Feel No Pain; Mark of Nurgle

Don't forget about your wonderful plague ridden friends! They'll be out there all by their lonesome.

Just a pointer. You really don't need to write down every unit's rules and weapons like fearless, close combat weapons etc. Everyone who reads the list should know it already.

Cheese Elemental wrote:Just a pointer. You really don't need to write down every unit's rules and weapons like fearless, close combat weapons etc. Everyone who reads the list should know it already.

He copy and pasted it from an Army Builder text summary, it wasn't on purpose.

Cadian16th wrote:

Stelek wrote:

Chosen go in the Land Raiders. They will outflank.

Can they outflank while in the Land Raider if it isn't a dedicated transport?

Any reason why not? I've read the rules, seems fine to me.

Do you have a reason to doubt?

Typeline wrote:

Stelek wrote:
This will be a surprise since you won't have anything on the table.


=========================


5 Plague Marines @ 135 Pts
Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon; Bolter; Meltagun (x2); Blight Grenades; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Fearless; Feel No Pain; Mark of Nurgle

5 Plague Marines @ 135 Pts
Bolt Pistol; Close Combat Weapon; Bolter; Meltagun (x2); Blight Grenades; Frag Grenades; Krak Grenades; Fearless; Feel No Pain; Mark of Nurgle

Don't forget about your wonderful plague ridden friends! They'll be out there all by their lonesome.

Actually, they'll be in reserve.

Like I said.

When they show up on turn 2 or turn 3, you can play punching bag with them instead of the land raiders and chosen.

Oh my, I don't think you really can afford to.

Well, I've thought about doing the same thing, but in the outflank section, it says

Note that if such units are picked from their army list together with a dedicated transport, they may outflank with their transport.

This leads me to believe that they may only outflank in a vehicle if it is a dedicated transport for them.

Read the actual reserve rules.

Infiltrate rules and the reserve rules are all that matter.

Infiltrate allows you to infiltrate unless you have a transport. In which case you may move in from reserve (see next sentence).

Nowhere in the reserve rules does it say you must HAVE a dedicated transport--only that if you do, you MUST move on the board in it. OR it must come in "empty" but that's not really relevant here.

Since I can outflank in a transport (infiltrate says so), I do not have a dedicated transport (I didn't buy one), and I can put myself into a land raider (and since it isn't a IC without infiltrate, my infiltrating unit doesn't lose infiltrate) in reserve....then I can outflank in my transport (rolled all together) and the rules say I can.

Follow?

Unless i've missed something, I see a slight problem with this list: no icons. those daemons you have seem to want to come out... but they're too stuck in the closet to even take a peek. err... warp. whatever. also: problem persists if you want to deep strike the terminator sorcerors.

Uhh you do want to deep strike all of those units.

If you really need a icon, subtract something and add one.

There's alot of places to deep strike and it's really not like you need to deep strike the chaos demons to assault. They are a objective taking troop unit, the chosen kill the enemy.

The sorcerors have a 24" range, why do they need to be close to the enemy?

Lesser daemons require an icon in order to come into the battlefield (which was what i was talking about mainly) and since this list does not include any icons, they are currently not going to do anything but take up points, according to my codex here (page 81, under icons and deep strike, it states "lesser daemons must enter the game by deep striking within 6" of an icon...") quick edit: should have stated "precisely deep strike" the terminator sorcerors in original post... they don't necessarily need icons.

Ah, see what happens when you never run a crappy unit?

lol easy to fix.

Infiltrate states if a unit deploys inside a transport vehicle, it may not infiltrate. Infiltrate confers the special outflank to units held in reserve, see page 94

Outflank allows units with infiltrate or scout to attempt to outflank. It also allows a dedicated transport to outflank with the unit (but unit must outflank with their transport embarked).

Page 67 defines dedicated transports. The land raider (in this case) does not meet the criteria as a dedicated transport.

You can't outflank with Land Raiders bought from the heavy support section.

You fail at reading.

Here we go:

Infiltrate rule:

If a unit with this ability is deployed inside a transport vehicle, it cannot infiltrate. Infiltrate also confers a special outflank move to units of infiltrators that are kept in reserve (see page 94).

Page 94, Reserves:

Preparing Reserves

When deploying their army, players may choose not to deploy one or more of the units in their army and instead leave them in reserve.

Similarly, the player must specify if any transport vehicle in reserve is carrying any of the infantry units [snip]. If they do, the unit and the transport will be rolled for together and will arrive together.

If units in reserve have the infiltrate special rule, [snip] they are going to use their special rules to outflank or they are going to enter from his own table edge when they will become available.

Outflank

[Snip]

Note that if such units are picked from their army list together with a dedicated transport, they may outflank with their transport, but if they do so they must move onto the table embarked on it.

Read all the rules. The only listed not-allowed section of this is you cannot deploy a Chaos IC with the Chosen because NO Chaos IC has infiltrate and it's clearly marked with a *.

Note that * is not affected by the transport vehicle you may or may not be in.

You can indeed outflank with Land Raiders bought as non-dedicated transports, because GW's rules do not specifically say you cannot do this but DO specifically say you can.

See how that works now?

Great, it's been fun.

Sarigar wrote:Infiltrate states if a unit deploys inside a transport vehicle, it may not infiltrate.

By the way, infiltrate is the top half of the rule.

Then there is a new paragraph.

The rule you really need to read is the Scouts rule.

It wasn't fethed up like the Infiltrate rule was, which only talks about DEPLOYING units not about units in reserve.

It clearly allows you to scout with the dedicated transport vehicle, which IMPLIES you cannot outflank with a non-dedicated transport but as it does not SAY this, well it's a worthless rule isn't it.

Sadly, it doesn't stop you from putting scouts in a smurf army into land raiders taken as heavy support and outflanking with them either.

I'm not typing that rule up, so if you don't "get it" you probably just won't.

Remember this is about RAW, not rules as I think GW meant them to be but were told during playtesting and couldn't be bothered to fething fix them.

Ok, can the unit be held in Reserve inside a transport? Yes, absolutely.

Again, how does a Land Raider suddenly get the Outflank ability? Outflank only makes reference to dedicated transports with units attempting to outflank. A land raider is neither a dedicated transport nor have the infiltrate/scout ability to allow it to outflank.

Since it is not a unit with the Scout/Infiltrate rule nor a dedicated transport, there does not appear to be any rule to allow a heavy support Land Raider to outflank.

Good luck at tourneys or getting 2nd pick up games with folks after trying this.

You fail at reading, again.

Reserves says I roll for the unit together with any transport it's in.

Fine, that's the Land Raider.

"WHEN AN OUTFLANKING UNIT ARRIVES FROM RESERVE..."

Full stop.

You just lost the argument, again.

The outflank rule does not in any way say you MUST have a dedicated transport, only that if you DO have one you MUST come in embarked upon it.

Fine, I don't have one.

Hmmm, I follow the rules as they are written, and don't break any...

Ah right, you just don't like the rules as written and choose not to play by them.

That's fine.

In tournaments this is already going on. GW's answer has been 'Look up our reply on KP's'.

So, besides having a tantrum and declaring yourself immune to the rules as written--got any actual rule that says Infiltrators cannot infiltrate with a non-dedicated transport?

Post it then.

Well, the first sentence in outflank state the units with the infiltrate or scout ability. Your land raider doesn't have either. Try again.

Units with the infiltrate rule may choose to make an outflanking move. If so, they are held in reserves.

Units may choose to deploy inside a transport vehicle when they move on from reserves.

One unit, the unit inside the transport, has the infiltrate rule, while the transport itself does not. Question: can the vehicle itself make an outflank move? Since you could say that it's the vehicle moving and not the infiltrating squad itself, technically, and the vehicle doesn't have outflank, it wouldn't be able to outflank move.

Part of the question might come when you declare reserves. You must declare what is in reserve, what is outflanking, and what unit is in what transport. You declare that the unit is outflanking, and that it is in a transport vehicle, which must also be then outflanking. However, the transport does not have outflanking. Does the squad convey the outflank to the vehicle? Or is it simply an illegal choice for division of reserves in the first place? It's not as clear as Stelek makes it out to be, I think.

Unfortunately Stelek, it is you that lose the argument. Each unit that Outflanks must have the Sccout or Infiltrate special ability. The Outflank rules give a specific exception for dedicated transports, but no others. So the Land Raiders do not have either ability, and thusly cannot enter the table using the Outflank ability.

Also, not that it's huge... but with nothing starting on the table, you have a 50% chance of the Lesser Daemons immediately dying. Yeah, I know, it's just one unit of 5 Lesser Daemons - but I'm not sure I can understand why they're even in the army.

Stelek wrote:"WHEN AN OUTFLANKING UNIT ARRIVES FROM RESERVE..."

Uhm... the Land Raider isn't an Outflanking unit, it's just toting the unit that is outflanking around.

tzeentchling wrote:Units with the infiltrate rule may choose to make an outflanking move. If so, they are held in reserves.

Units may choose to deploy inside a transport vehicle when they move on from reserves.

One unit, the unit inside the transport, has the infiltrate rule, while the transport itself does not. Question: can the vehicle itself make an outflank move? Since you could say that it's the vehicle moving and not the infiltrating squad itself, technically, and the vehicle doesn't have outflank, it wouldn't be able to outflank move.

Part of the question might come when you declare reserves. You must declare what is in reserve, what is outflanking, and what unit is in what transport. You declare that the unit is outflanking, and that it is in a transport vehicle, which must also be then outflanking. However, the transport does not have outflanking. Does the squad convey the outflank to the vehicle? Or is it simply an illegal choice for division of reserves in the first place? It's not as clear as Stelek makes it out to be, I think.

tzeentchling beat me to it. The Land Raider, whether or not it is arriving from reserve accompanied with the unit, does not have the ability to Outflank. An important thing to note is that while the passengers don't technically "lose" their ability to Outflank, the Land Raiders don't gain it.

Full stop.

You just lost the argument.

I don't see a single GW rule being quoted.

Yes I quoted all of them.

Is that why I lose, because I actually quoted the rules?

Sadly, I can think little of 'because we say so' arguments.

By the way, tzeentchling--I think you are correct. It is not clear. It's a bad spot in the rules. The closest thing to a counterpoint offered. The others are worthless "I say it isn't, so it isn't" arguments.

No rules to quote, so obviously there is a gap--yet you think because GW put in one poorly worded rule in one section of the rules it covers the dilemna I have created just by reading (and quoting) the rules?

I follow the rules. At no point am I not following the rules, as the entire "may" comment in the Outflank rules is in fact the problem.

What if I choose not to? What happens then? The same exception you quoted also allows me to choose NOT to outflank with my transport, roll for it first, and then what happens? How do I transport my own unit onto the table? Is the unit lost? Forced to enter from reserves on my table edge? But I thought I could not change my mind later, or is the game changing it for me? The rules fail in this regard too.

Shame on you.

Yeah, uh try again. You can't shame us into accepting that the very rules you quoted state what you claim: that non-Infiltrate/Scout vehicles can Outflank. Come on, show it. You can't. You're using a weak supposition on the fact that a unit can be paired with a transport arrives with it. The fact of the rules state that only a unit with those special rules can Outflank, that's it. You haven't shown the exception to that rule.

But stay in your fantasy world...

If you want a rule to be quoted, just say so!

"If a unit with this ability is deployed inside a transport vehicle, it cannot infiltrate. Infiltrate also confers a special outflank move to units of infiltrators that are kept in reserve (see page 94)."

~p. 75, under INFILTRATE.

That should be pretty definitive. If you're inside a transport vehicle, you can't infiltrate. Period. You may say, "Well, it doesn't disallow outflanking!" Unfortunately, yes it does. Infiltrate confers the outflank move.

If that isn't enough for you:

"During deployment, players may declare that units with the ‘scout’ or ‘infiltrate’ special rules are attempting to outflank the enemy."

~p. 94, under Outflank

A Land Raider has neither the Scout nor Infiltrate special rule. Q.E.D., they can't outflank.

I think between those passages, that should be enough.

And no, you lose because you misread the rules, not because you quoted all of them.

Sadly, you think little of the winning arguments.

Bad spot in the rules? Perhaps for all those random questions you put in there to save your own wrong self, but not for the actual question in point here.

Actually I have.

See, transports that are transporting are not units for deployment purposes. They are just transports the unit is in.

I see no one's bothered to note the difference between scouts and infiltrators.

Oh well.

Stelek wrote:See, transports that are transporting are not units for deployment purposes. They are just transports the unit is in.

I'd like to see you quote that rule.

I did already.

When you argue, please read the rules I quoted.

Thanks.

Ok, I read it, but I still fail to see where transports garner the Scout or Infiltrate rule. Perhaps I'm just that blind, but if you have indeed posted that too, highlight it, and maybe I'll be able to see what you see.

My point (everyone!) is that the rules have a FLAW in them.

They only talk about dedicated transports.

The only way to remove infiltrate from a unit is to stick a IC with them or DEPLOY them in a transport.

Placing them in reserve is off the table.

Deploy is on the table.

You tell me where I did not follow the rules as written.

I am NOT deploying another unit (the non-dedicated transport), I am entering a infiltrating unit from reserve inside the transport I chose to give them. I can use outflank because the rule you keep quoting to "prove" I'm wrong has nothing to do with reserves or outflanking.

It's correct by the book, because the book has a flaw in it--it does not cover non-dedicated transports in the infiltrate section, but it DOES cover non-dedicated transports AND infiltrating units being able to outflank in the reserve rules.

If I was trying to infiltrate the land raider AND the chosen separately, you'd have a point. However, I am not.

Nowhere in the entire rulebook will you find a rule that says transports gain infiltrate. Until you do, your entire reverse logic argument completely fails on it's premise.