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I have faced a few demon armies now and after the initial learning phase for the new generals they all seem to break down into a common pattern...

50+ % Nurgle
The remainder Slaanesh/Tzeentch
0-1% Khorne. Cool models but overpriced for the mechanics of this army and what it can do.
Oh and usually 2 or 3 Soulgrinders that drop the pie plate.

All this is somewhat understandable but I am questioning how effective this army will ever be. In my local environment, most people are playing very vehicle light so it is troops. In this context, I think they are workable given the vagaries of which half of your army you get, where they deep strike in and when the reinforcements come in.

I will say I am curious if any demon army ever has a prayer against the Stelek DH 7 landraiders with 5 mystical inquisitors. I don't even think this would be a fun game for either player. But taking a step back... How would demons fair with 3 landraiders or DH inquisitors backing up marine vindicators?

To me the cost of all the demon stuff looks good on paper but in comparison with other armies it is junk.

Why plaguebearers always as the base? They are the only thing that can stand up to enemy fire maybe tzeentch due to their improved invulnerables but nothing matches a plaguebearer... My laugh is that bloodletters cost more than any other base trooper... Power weapon, weapons skill, furious charge... sounds awesome but see what happens when 10 to 15 of them get in the sights of a devastator squad with 4 heavy bolters or 4 heavy plasmas. All the combat prowess in the world doesn't matter if you are a bunch of goo right where you landed.

Demon princes seem cool and I have seen 1 or 2 but to get them safely into close combat, it seems why play them when you can play soulgrinders that can dropp the pie plate from the back and eliminate troops.

Now we come to the joys of anti-tank... what do you have? A 3BS option on a soulgrinder (never seen it taken). Bolt of Change on 1 pink horror (again BS 3 and really challenged to take out the real heavy armor) and then charging it. Sounds good but I have rarely seen anyone charge towards demons usually it is stand and fire or charge before being charged. So we are left with flying demon lords or princes and probably at least surviving 2 enemy firephases... doesn't seem likely.

My feeling is that demons are colorful, win because most opposing commanders don't really know the strengths of the demons (and half the time the strengths and weaknesses of their own armies.) Anyways this is my view as an opposing commander. I would like to see some answers from demon commanders and what they feel:

What army builds work for you? Are any truly consistent? Do you think you could field one and win against quality opponents in a rogue trader or hard boyz with them? Are there certain opposing armies you might as well pick it up before you play unless your dice only roll 5's and 6's?

Just looking at the book you can see it's going to have a problem with AV14.
But Khorne sucks? Dude, Bloodcrushers are tough, and powerful. And they can take an icon. I think they are an excellent unit.

Daemons are definitely not at the top end of the competitiveness spectrum but they have a few viable builds for tournament play.

A daemon army with two bloodthirsters, 3 grinders, maxed bloodcrushers and as many plaguebearers as you can fit will be difficult for most armies to deal with. Sure it will have trouble with land raider spam but most armies will have trouble with land raider spam. But find an army that can deal with 24 crushers in CC or can mass enough firepower to bring down that many crushers while simultaneously dealing with grinder armor and dislodging plaguebearers from objectives.

Admittedly Daemons probably only have a couple really strong army lists but most codices are like that these days. Of course it doesn't help daemons that one of its toughest lists requires you to spend around $500 on the bloodcrushers alone.

Love the bloodcrushers, and glad to hear that they are effective.

I guess I am lamenting that the cool looking troop choice bloodletters just seem like worthless.

I am not arguing about hoards of plaguebearers being effective just sad that daemonettes and bloodletters are kind of poor third cousins with pink horros being maybe step-brothers. Kind of boring to me that with all the options, they have you really have no options. Like saying you can pay me a dollar and I will give you 4 quarters, 4 dimes, 4 nickels or 4 pennies.... what do you want?
(I will admit, I am an idiot and I like reddish things so I would love to play a khorne themed army but I think it would be a waste of time for me and for any opponents I played.)

Oh and 500$ for the bloodcrusher hoard explains why I haven't seen that one yet.

Against any army that has a significant amount of infantry Daemons are a great army and more than capable of butchering through their ranks in vast swathes.

Unfortunately through a very minor detail GW gave a cheap HQ that can ally with any Imperial army a 12 point retinue that is an instant IWIN button against virtually any daemon force.

If you end up playing 'THAT GUY', you will not have a good time.

An interesting army is Kugath, GUO, 2-3 Soul Grinders, a Nurgle Beastie or two, and the rest Plaguebearers... 40 minimum.

Effectively the melee version of Necrons. Poison lets you wound any non-armor and you have great survivability with FNP.

Slow? Yes.
Does it win? Ties some, wins more often.
Beats LR Spam? Ties a lot.
Ugly army? That's a yes.

Sad thing is that Bloodletters are sweet if they engage, but they get mauled by shooting. Demonettes even more so. Tzeentch should be all or nothing. That leaves Plaguebearers as the troop of choice. Your only decision is how many over 40 do you want. Not really that much fun.

The demon armies that did the best at the LVGT where Khorne based, the others did not do as well.

Steleks 7 LR army was at 2500 points. You are losing 3 LR at 1750. The LR army is tough, but it really does not put out all that much fire power. If you hit it with a couple of Greater Demons and some Demon Princes, you should win.

As to your original question of are they viable? Maybe. You will get a good mix of opinions about this. The are some who like them, and can win a lot with them, but they have so many dice rolls that you can win a 3 game RTT with them now and then, but over a 5 game GT style format you will have bad luck in one or 2 games that your play will not be able to over come.

Blackmoor wrote:The demon armies that did the best at the LVGT where Khorne based, the others did not do as well.

Steleks 7 LR army was at 2500 points. You are losing 3 LR at 1750. The LR army is tough, but it really does not put out all that much fire power. If you hit it with a couple of Greater Demons and some Demon Princes, you should win.

As to your original question of are they viable? Maybe. You will get a good mix of opinions about this. The are some who like them, and can win a lot with them, but they have so many dice rolls that you can win a 3 game RTT with them now and then, but over a 5 game GT style format you will have bad luck in one or 2 games that your play will not be able to over come.

MCs need 6s to hit a moving vehicle.Not a easy work.

tokugawa wrote:
MCs need 6s to hit a moving vehicle.Not a easy work.

If they are moving that fast, then they sure aren't shooting much.

Blackmoor wrote:

tokugawa wrote:
MCs need 6s to hit a moving vehicle.Not a easy work.

If they are moving that fast, then they sure aren't shooting much.

And that means they are usually hitting on 4's

I have been pretty succesful with them but have yet to play against a DH army. The mission also dictates the stlye I play. Kill points I play more conservative while objective based missions I go more aggressive.

I've got a mono khorne 1.5k force, i've only played 5-6 games with it and only lost one i've also won more than drawn, it may not be uber competitive but it's not a walk over.

Didn't daemon armiess do pretty well at Las Vegas?

A few things, Demons can definitely be competitive. Epidimus lists are very powerful and Bllodcrushers hordes are equally hard to deal with. Like all armies, they have competitive army lists. About Bloodletters, these can work, but you cannot rambo with them. You must use terrain to your advantage. Either deepstriking behind terrain to block like of sight, or close to terrain so you can run into it and get a cover save from it. It is most definitely an army that you must play smart with.

Erm you can fit 5 or 6 LR into 1750, Blackmoor.

Most Demon armies are easily beaten for several major reasons, all of which are crippling.

The drop. Absolutely horrid mechanics all the way around.

Besides plaguebearers (which don't kill much) the troops suffer from a lack of armor saves but are costed like marines.

Tanks. The inability to deal with them in any reliable manner makes them a serious pain.

Poor BS, poor shooting--and that's with the SHOOTY version of this army.

Anyone who believes "Demons" are competitive needs to try again. "Bloodcrusher Demons" can be extremely dangerous, something I keep pointing out but only a few have listened.

Besides one build based around plaguebearers, crushers, and whatever else suits your fancy--the whole list is horrible.

Beginning to end, it's a fantasy army in a 40k world and does just as you'd expect it to--badly.

Saying Demons aren't a good army because they have to use bloodcrushers to be any good is like saying that tyranids aren't a good army because they have to use carnifexes to be any good.

Or that orks aren't a good army list because they have to use lootas to do well.


Demons are good. Demons have bad matchups, but so does everyone else.

Where demon's get their bad rap is from new demon players. Demons are a difficult army to play, hard to build balanced lists when you don't have play experience. I think saying that people that have experience playing against demons can just completely shut them down is a misconception.

I just recently played a game against Somnicide with my entirely mechanized eldar army. My army has not completed the tuning process, but Somnicide was trying some new things. He bought my demon models off of me. We've developed the tactics he uses for demons together. I know exactly what he wants to do, and how I should stop that.

I lost the annihilation scenario 6 to 5. Luck was not a factor, the only odds-bucking events all were in my favor.

I think he's getting ready to put up the batrep, when he does I'll link it here. I could use some criticism on my play or my list maybe. But I think it goes a long way to disproving the 'mobility myth' and the 'not good at killing tanks' myths. If a tank has 10 rear armor. It isn't more of a problem for demons than other armies. If its a land raider, well, I can list you about 15 army books that have problems with land raiders.

edit: here's the batrep http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/218822.page

Demons don't get meltaguns, Shep.

So Land Raiders can drive them off objectives, and prevent KP loss.

It's an unbalanced force without the usual reliability other armies have.

That is what puts it into the fun category.

So, basically any army without meltas is in the fun category? What about S8+2d6 from a flying monstrous creature? Land Raiders are a hard nut to crack for most armies.

I think it is hard to argue with the success of some daemon players out there unless you want to sum it all up to luck and discount them completely.

Anyway, once more, I will just agree to disagree on this for the time being. :-)

Stelek wrote:Demons don't get meltaguns, Shep.

So Land Raiders can drive them off objectives, and prevent KP loss.

It's an unbalanced force without the usual reliability other armies have.

That is what puts it into the fun category.

Orks don't get meltaguns either. Orks are worse from range at taking out land raiders, and i wouldn't say they are any better in CC at killing them.

I think the new dakka 'land raider' fascination is a little overblown. I'm going to find a guy to play this weekend that can proxy up 4 LRs, and I'll put some orks against him and some demons too. There are tons of armies that, when built correctly, can't handle land raiders. I don't really know what that means.

I sold my demons, because there are some things i don't like about them. For me it is too stressful to rely on 'important' rolls. there are a few too many clutch rolls both in armor saves and in scatter rolls for me to be comfortable playing them in a tourney. I stressed myself there because some people don't mind the stress, and understand that the odds are dialed in their favor. Without buckets of dice, I just don't feel like I can take the 'bad luck' feeling. It's too distracting for me at a big tourney. You have to keep your concentration up, even after a bad scatter or failing a cluster of 3+ saves.

Would I write off my opponent at a tourney if he played demons as an easy win? Absolutely not.

2 Greater Daemons and 3 DPs should have a decent time penning landraiders, even str6+2d6 with about 4 attacks, hitting half of them due to moving and shooting raiders, is going to do ok.

The blood crushers can mop up anything else.

If you really need, it, they do have Screamers.


Are they going to have a hard time vs 7 land raiders? Yeah, but who isn't?

Not everyone runs 2 GD and 3 DP, ferrous. Against alot of armies, that isn't exactly a 'win' build. For alot of reasons.

Shep, Orks have a terrible time killing Land Raiders but a nob biker unit is very killy against them (and most everything else).

However making a list designed to force the other guy to kill your AV14 to make any headway is a big deal in 5th. Armored tank companies are no joke if you can't get to them fast enough, 9 LR will blow a hole in your army.

Bloodcrushers can handle *most* things. They cannot handle Land Raiders nor quite a few other things in the game--but I think for the demons, they are excellent all-arounders.

Writing off opponents really depends on what army you are playing and what they are playing. I personally have enough experience to hand people a defeat unless it's a rock/paper/scissors situation. Then I can usually fight them to a draw or a win. Alot of people don't have that, and alot of those people think demons are scary. Once people start making 5th edition lists and learn how to play the game system better, demons will fall right into 'niche, fun, for experienced vets only'. In my opinion, anyway.

My vote goes with Stelek. I've tried to make Demons work, and I haven't given up, but really only a few units make the cut.

Can you build a list to specifically beat LR spam? You can come close with 5 MC's... and then die horribly to a gunline army because all of your points are tied up in so few wounds.

It's rock/paper/scissors but demons are either crepe paper or some kindergarden safety scissors because they don't do their job well and they sure aren't a rock.

Wildstorm wrote:It's rock/paper/scissors but demons are either crepe paper or some kindergarden safety scissors because they don't do their job well and they sure aren't a rock.

LOL! Sigged.

Wildstorm wrote:My vote goes with Stelek. I've tried to make Demons work, and I haven't given up, but really only a few units make the cut.

Sorry to hear you are having trouble.

Wildstorm wrote:Can you build a list to specifically beat LR spam? You can come close with 5 MC's... and then die horribly to a gunline army because all of your points are tied up in so few wounds.

I'll let you know after this weekend. There's a lot of talk about how you won't be able to hurt land raiders who move more than 6" a turn.

I'm REALLY starting to question what the hell a LR army is going to over 6 turns of play by shooting 4 guns a turn. I mean seriously? Are we saying that firing 4 assault cannons a turn is going to win you the game? Are we also saying that over 6 turns of a game, that even strength 8 shots won't eventually cripple a land raider or two, especially when they aren't doing anything to supress firepower?

Ultimately, I'd wager that its less about 'killing 4 land raiders' and more about understanding the rules of tank shock.

I mean if you are just going to drive around waiting for the later turns, and then park on an objective, any demon army with a tiny unit of screamers can just park the screamers in a line in front of an objective, hopefully in cover, and just take cover all game. tank shock that objective now ,or shoot them with your 4 heavy weapons.. all the while running from the unkillable bloodthirsters...

LRC with marine rules actually do this, shep:

Fire the multi-melta at your tanks.

Fire the TL bolters and the TL assault cannon at your infantry.

x3.

Up close and personal, it's deadly.

I got out alot in my first game at the ard boyz.

I barely got out in my second and third.

I didn't even have the marine rules on 4 of those LR, just the 3 LRC...and I tabled the latter 2 opponents. I beat the first guy but I should have tabled him too (learning the army and what not to do).

Stelek wrote:
I didn't even have the marine rules on 4 of those LR, just the 3 LRC...and I tabled the latter 2 opponents. I beat the first guy but I should have tabled him too (learning the army and what not to do).

The free nature of the 'Ard Boyz means that you get anybody and everybody showing up to play. The wheat gets separated from the chaff, as we separate the 'Ard from the soft.

In the next round you "should" not be able to table your opponents, if not lose outright, and in the finals I would imagine that your Land Raiders would have a tough go of it.

I wonder how many times one has to say they can't play in the semi-finals.

Well, here's once more.

I don't agree with your analysis, it's very difficult (if not impossible) to make a list that can knock out my list and a horde army.

Tau and Sisters seem to have the best bet to do both.

Everyone else...not as much. Eldar perhaps.

Not sure how many other 'super' lists are getting to the finals, though.

I think Eldar scale very well to 2500 where most other armies falter past 2000.

Oh and I think the nature of the ard boyz this year (cluster all the way) has left many gamers out in the cold.

Followed up by poor semi-finals store placements (free isn't free if you gotta drive 6+ hours) and the laughable prize support (sure...it's an army, really!)...well, it's my guess it won't be 'big' this year in comparison to last year.

Stelek wrote:
I don't agree with your analysis, it's very difficult (if not impossible) to make a list that can knock out my list and a horde army.

Tau and Sisters seem to have the best bet to do both.

Everyone else...not as much. Eldar perhaps.

Not sure how many other 'super' lists are getting to the finals, though.

SAFH Space Marines will slow this army down with a lot of lascannons. It might take a while to kill Land Raiders, they will stun them a lot.

SAFH IG with a lot of Lascannons.

The 9 Oblit+Troop shooting will stop the LR army.

Eldar can beat it with a combination of Bright Lances, Fusion Guns/Pistols and Singing Spears.

You mean, the old dex? lol who cares what the old dex can do.

New dex cannot stop LR spam without meltaguns. If you think they can do it with lascannons, you really need to rethink that position.

9 oblits get...obliterated. Sorry to say, I tabled the oblit part of the lash army every time with my 7 LR army. Plague Marines caused me some trouble. Nothing else did. I think a chaos LR rush with PM and termies w/combi weapons will give the list a hell of a go.

Eldar need BL to slow them down, that's all they can hope for. How many wave serpents with TL BL are coming? 6? 8? How many will survive the return fire? Gotta bring a very heavy mech list to kill the army that way, and I'll take 7 LR against 8 WS every day of the week. Fusion Guns will stop them. How they get delivered is another question.

Singing spears don't do squat to LR. Any squad comes that close to a LR is going to get annihilated by either what's inside the LR's or the LR's.

Just wondering why you think S9 shots from across the board will stop the LR? I had one LR get immobilized from a S9 shot in 11 games. I ran over a guard army that had 12 of them firing at me. Lost a couple weapons on the way over, made the guard player not come to the ard boyz. That and the blood angel horde that was coming turned him off too. lol

Anyway, back to the OP, before this turns into another 'only the best can beat Stelek' thread...

I play an entirely Slaaneshi Daemon army. I've expected to get tabled at every game I've played so far, but I've been pleasantly surprised that they've only had wins and draws.

I just think it's a matter of getting used to a new army and finding out what parts of that army are now important. I've never put as much thought to DS locations as I do now!!

As far as the slaanesh units go, i find Daemonettes and Fiends really need to be taken at maximum squad size to be effective, though I often field a reserve 10 daemonettes to be dropped on a far flung objective. KOS, DP, and tounge Soulgrinders are your anti-tank. As many posters have pointed out, it's really not too hard to kill tanks in CC with MCs, provided they haven't moved too far, and if they HAVE moved far, they're not a threat.

I don't think I'd choose to play against the kind of beardy git who brings 4 Land Raiders or 9 Leman Russ to a normal sized game.