Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

For your consideration and review against USGT circuit power builds at 1750:

TROOPS
[*]10 Dire Avengers
- inna Serpent w/Stones, TLBrightLance
[*]9 Dire Avengers
- inna Serpent w/Stones, TLBrightLance
[*]10 Wraithguard, plus Warlock w/Destructor + Spear + Seer Upgrade
[*]HEAVY SUPPORT - 3x Wraithguard w/Sword (reroll misses) and BrightLance
[*]FAST ATTACK - 10 Warp Spiders - led by Exarch w/TwinSpinners, Powerblades, and Hit&Run Ability
[*]HQ - Yriel or Avatar - same points, same role. (Leaning towards Avatar for inspiring fearlessness, but the "1-time-stomp" and +1 reserve rolls from Yriel are also really nice.)

Suggested Tactics: Right up the middle, with a block of Wraithguard giving cover saves to the Wraithlords and HQ.

Dire Avengers can be dismounted providing cover saves and anti-infantry fire or mounted and waiting for a good target/hunting objectives.

Warp Spiders can be "fast outriders", getting ahead of the army and absorbing a charge/charging a nasty unit before running off. Or, they can DS behind lines to hit a vehicular AV10 Rear or shooty unit.

Dire Avengers or Spiders will be used to consolidate units and either (a) die or (b) run away and leave them clumped together for 6 Flamer templates from the Wraithlords followed by a Gang Charge from the heavies. Wraithguard are also a good tarpit for another unit while the heavies work, and are very hard to budge off objectives.

Why do I think this will work? Wraithguard can Run, keeping them close to the Warp Spiders and moving them up quickly. Dire Avengers die just easy enough, leaving a nice clump for subsequent line units to attack, or the Warp Spiders who don't die as easy can charge and then run away at a good time.

PLEASE - flaws in the build. Builds that are default monkeystomps. Problematic opponents or missions. Stuff I haven't looked at yet. Thanks!

-JTS

The down side of WL lists is it leaves you with very little on the table, sure you have some big mean WL moving across the table laying down a decent amount of fire power but, you only have 3 scoring units. What are you going to do when they get blown off the table or get shot up and run away?

3 WL are mean but they are far from invincible and they are going to eat every LC, Railgun, and missle your opponents has at their disposal.

This is also seriously lacks anti horde, a large footsloggin Ork army will eat your WL's, sure thoughness 8 is great against the boys but the 4 PK attacks base coming at it each turn will wipe it pretty quickly.

You have a nice amount of anti tank, you just need to find a good way of swapping a few things around to give you anti troop support as well.

-Zhet

I would switch the WL brightlances for missle launchers. The 15 point difference and range increase is huge and that would help you against hordes. Switch the destructor for conceal or enhance with the Wraithguard. Flamer templates are hard to use on slow units and should be either mounted or move 12" per turn. Conceal or enhance would help a walking squad a lot.

I would suggest against using dire avengers as cover: they are way too fragile. They should hide behind the Wraithguard. I would also find the points for exarchs and either bladestorm or defend. Either of those powers would be useful. If you drop the spirit stones and change the WL brightlances for missle launchers, you should have the points.

Warp Spiders are really expensive for what they do. Any serious CC threat will decimate them on a charge and T3 3+ save cannot take that much. Use them carefully if you decide to keep them.

Personally, I don't think Yriel or the Avatar would be very right for your list. Yriel is good in CC but can be instakilled and brings little to help the list. The Avatar is wasted with all fearless stuff and CC ability you already have. I think a better HQ would be a Farseer. Forture is essential for this army, to keep the few things you have alive. Mindwar would also be useful to get rid of things that are a threat to High Toughness units (PF/PKs, Plasma and meltaguns). Plus you can get some Psychic protection with runes of warding. All that would cost 140 pts which would allow you to max out the second dire avengers squad.

Remember, in 5th edition, troops are very important, and you can rarely afford to throw them away. Your dire avengers are your only mobile scoring unit and should be protected as such. I hope that I have been of some help.

What is missing is a Fortuneseer for the Wraithguard. Runes of warding are a must have since there are so many psykers out there (at the GT).

wuestenfux: Thanks - that helps. Which psykers are you hoping the Runes help against most specifically? Lash Princes? Gate Librarians?

For 153 points (vs 155 for Avatar or Yriel) I get a Farseer with Spear, both Runes, Stone, Mind War, and Fortune. I trade effectively 2.5+ guaranteed Wounds per turn against anything in CC for rerolled saves and a little sniping. A good deal? (Also, guessing you would put Conceal on those WG, too?)

Zhet: 20 Dire Avengers and 10 Spiders = 15 S6 hits and 25 S4 hits, per turn. Is this not enough anti-horde? Are you advocating replacing Wraithguard with 3 more walking squads of Dire Avengers, or similar? That could be pretty butch, I guess.

Does anyone agree with AdeptSister at all?

wuestenfux: Thanks - that helps. Which psykers are you hoping the Runes help against most specifically? Lash Princes? Gate Librarians?

Certainly both.

For 153 points (vs 155 for Avatar or Yriel) I get a Farseer with Spear, both Runes, Stone, Mind War, and Fortune. I trade effectively 2.5+ guaranteed Wounds per turn against anything in CC for rerolled saves and a little sniping. A good deal? (Also, guessing you would put Conceal on those WG, too?)

Yeah, a Farseer is a must have. Runes of whitnesses are not necessary. Conceal is redundant if the WG squad benefits from cover.

You could trade one or two wraith swords by EMLs.

JTS1486 wrote:Zhet: 20 Dire Avengers and 10 Spiders = 15 S6 hits and 25 S4 hits, per turn. Is this not enough anti-horde? Are you advocating replacing Wraithguard with 3 more walking squads of Dire Avengers, or similar? That could be pretty butch, I guess.

Does anyone agree with AdeptSister at all?

I think moving points around and getting blade storm would help significantly against horde.

I second westens insistence on having at least one seer to walk with the WL and WG.

As far as Adept sister not so much you need the solid anti tank the BL provides but a scatter laser or two would not be a bad trade not to mention it frees up alot of points to be used else where.

if you are taking guard you want ten per unit. 3 will do nothing but give up a kill point.

The list I am building

Eldrad
Muagen Ra
10 WG with seer with enhance
10 WG with seer with enhance
3 WL each with shuriken cannon and SL
8 pathfinders

Use the banana formation, give yourself cover till you get close, then assault.

GMMStudios wrote:if you are taking guard you want ten per unit. 3 will do nothing but give up a kill point.

The list I am building

Eldrad
Muagen Ra
10 WG with seer with enhance
10 WG with seer with enhance
3 WL each with shuriken cannon and SL
8 pathfinders

Use the banana formation, give yourself cover till you get close, then assault.

why take maugen ra.

take more troops.

Eldrad
Muagen Ra
10 WG with seer with enhance
10 WG with seer with enhance
3 WL each with shuriken cannon and SL
8 pathfinders

In fact, Maugan Ra is a bit out of place. Generally, Phoenix Lords are too expensive.
The army lacks anti-heavy armor; the WLs need brightlances and EMLs for shooty support.
I'd add a counter-strike unit such as a Harlie squad on foot.

GeneralX wrote:

GMMStudios wrote:if you are taking guard you want ten per unit. 3 will do nothing but give up a kill point.

The list I am building

Eldrad
Muagen Ra
10 WG with seer with enhance
10 WG with seer with enhance
3 WL each with shuriken cannon and SL
8 pathfinders

Use the banana formation, give yourself cover till you get close, then assault.

why take maugen ra.

take more troops.

Because Maugen Ra not only ignores cover on his awesome gun (dont forget your opponent will have cover as you close because of the banana formation) but he is great in CC. Enhanced, he is a beast. You put him in one squad and Eldrad in the other, then you march up the board. The WG are tough as nails, and Ive never lost more than 6 in a game total. The two characters are your hammers within the squad of anvils. Plus enhanced WG arent anything to sneeze at.

Theres nothing more troops would add to this army really, and it would leave one WG unit very vulnerable to CC.

Anti tank? Do you know what the WG guns do? The only tanks I really fear are land raiders spammed, but even then, how many fortuned WG are they going to kill before 250 points starts getting sucked into the warp one at a time?

EDIT: The only thing I *might* drop MR for is Yriel, but its iffy. Yriel is awesome, but he lacks ranged, which I like with MR.

wuestenfux wrote:

Eldrad
Muagen Ra
10 WG with seer with enhance
10 WG with seer with enhance
3 WL each with shuriken cannon and SL
8 pathfinders

In fact, Maugan Ra is a bit out of place. Generally, Phoenix Lords are too expensive.
The army lacks anti-heavy armor; the WLs need brightlances and EMLs for shooty support.
I'd add a counter-strike unit such as a Harlie squad on foot.

You cant get three lords in the 1750 list with anything bigger than what they have here (which still is great, 21 st. 6 shots hitting on 3s, seeing most everything). But even to bump it up to 2000, I dont think I would give them bright lances and EMLs, way too expensive for single shots. Id take triple prisms before that.

and Ive never lost more than 6 in a game total.

played against daemons yet?
im pretty sure skulltaker and a small unit of bloods would tear apart wraithguard.

WraithGuard are actually bad antitank, 12" range, only pen on 6's. A land raider redeemer is likely to roll up and eradicate most of a 10 man squad

Or sternguard and their ap3 guns, or oblits and plasma cannons. I see wraithguard fall all the time.

They also suck at CC, i've seen'em fall to that all the time too. (Especially if the wraithlords or avatars or dead or occupied.)

JD- No one around here is willing to play demons.

Ferrous - They glance on 3s pen on fives, no matter the armor.

Redeemers would be an issue because they also ignore cover, but they are still fairly rare and no one around here is getting one.

20 (10 marines rapid firing) of the AP3 kills .5 WG every turn. Dont forget they re fortuned and are tough 6. I can also always put one of those wounds on Eldrad with a 3+ rerollable invul which means a wound only 1 out of 10 times.

Even worse for plasma cannons. They just dont do enough wounds.

They dont suck at CC, they are average. WS 5, st 5 init. 5. Not bad when backed up by MR with WS 8 I8 4 base power weapon attacks at st 6...

Plus the warlock.

The wraithlords are a throw away "please lascannon me" item. Id rather they shoot them with an LC than a wraithguard.

I dont think whoever you have been watching has been using them right.

Err, Wraithguard are WS4 and initative 4, but no power weapons, the high str and tough is cool, but not going to do anything vs a powerfist. Maugen Ra is one dude, and an IC without a retinue and no invulnerable save, he really better kill whatever is in front of him or he's in trouble. You're correct on the pen on 5,6's, but they are still only AP2, so the chance of wrecking a vehicle still 2/3 hit, 1/3 pen 1/3 wreck = 2/27 =~7 percent chance to destroy a vehicle per shot. Not so great, and while that is the same regardless of armor, it means that immolators and other light vehicles are just as hard to destroy.

Psychic hood means your fortune is only going off slightly greater than %50 percent of the time.

Tanks should scare you, whats to stop you from getting battle cannoned to death by defilers or leman russ. Or vindicators and demolishers? They all outrange the paltry 12" range of a wraithguard and are AP3 or better

the WG also aren't going to benefit from cover for very long if all they have is other units to cover them, dire avengers without fearlessness are going to fold fast.

the WG 12" range also means that they are assault bait by fleet creatures, and aren't likely to get a shot off at all, they are very expensive to get stuck in CC.


Oops forgot about the enchance, that does put them at WS5, I5. but they're still average without power weapons.

The WG units give each other cover.

"Tanks should scare you, whats to stop you from getting battle cannoned to death by defilers or leman russ. "

Cover. Anything AP3 or better I still get a 4 up rerollable. Battle cannons are fine, they wont kill that many if any.

Yes you are right, WG have a short range. Thats fine, try killing all 20 in a full game, and they are all troops choices and not even half the army. Thats where the points cost comes from. You are theoryhammering as if it is the 20 WG vs. 1750 of whatever kills them. It doesnt really work that way.

Oh:
"but no power weapons"
Thats what Eldrad and Maugen are for.

"but not going to do anything vs a powerfist."
And the formers mind war.

Sorry, i just don't see how the list would work that well, even with maugen, eldrad and the 3 WL. (since not a single one of them will help vs vehicles) And they are your only troops besides the one group of rangers, which are likely to disappear under a flamer template at some point, and you need them to desperately keep their banana cover, so they can't split up to cover objectives, and banana cover can disappear if fired on from more then one direction. Additionally psychic hoods and other psychic defense stuff will screw with your re-rollable and mindwar plans.

Well you should try it, I have a very good record with it.

And one final note:
"(since not a single one of them will help vs vehicles)"

Maugen and the WLs are st. 6. That handles all vehicles short of preds, russes (both frontal only) and raiders. 25 shots of it at that...

GMMStudios,

I'm pretty sure Ferrous would eat your list alive as would most of the Daemon players in our group.

The reason you run small squads of Wraithguard is to make life more difficult for your opponent (kill points aside). If you just have 1 squad of 10? He's going to assault it and WG with just 1 attack each, WS 4 they are not CC monsters and T6 only goes so far. With multiple squads not only can you split up your shooting but if someone does come in to assault, once they're done your other 2 Wraithguard squads can shoot it. Sure 10 WG with a seerer makes them scoring but imo that was put in the codex to sell Wraithguard, not as a very viable strategy as in most cases it is just too many points to put in one place.

Yes yes, Maugen with 10 WG can be fun, but imo it's not a serious list, it's a *for fun* list. It's too many eggs in a single basket that lacks maneuverability, range and ranged anti-tank. Most vehicles can easily stay out of 12" range (18" with your move). The wraithcannon is a great "don't screw with me gun" and keeps your opponent from getting too close (unless he plans to assault you).

I don't know about you but in my play group most SM have been taking double LR and their las cannons would be hailing down on you. Who's ever unit is in front is not going to get cover saves (that's why having the lock take conceal helps). But if you have conceal, then you don't have enhance (ah the dilemmas).

Wraithlords in most Wraithguard armies, serve as anti-assault units, hence they do that role better if given a Sword. Again as others pointed out a Brightlance would serve you better for some ranged anti-tank.

How does that list handle hordes? Maugen with 3 shots, cool. Sure I guess if you left your WraithLords as you have them equipped they would have lots of shots, but I think you'd have problems Vs an opponent with serious number of models (or just Vs someone with lots of invuln saves (Daemons)).

Also daemons have been running rampant and most of them are not only immune to the miniature D-cannons instant death, but their plethora of invlun saves will also laugh at you, O' and they're close combat monsters would chew up the WG in HtH.

-Jara

No no no. You have to go back and read the thread.

Jaradakar wrote:
The reason you run small squads of Wraithguard is to make life more difficult for your opponent (kill points aside).

Those arent troops. They are more expensive as you are buying more seers.

Jaradakar wrote:WS 4

Once again they are enhanced....

Jaradakar wrote:
Yes yes, Maugen with 10 WG can be fun, but imo it's not a serious list, it's a *for fun* list.

I dunno, Mr. Sparks from Toledo took a similar list to Vegas and did very well for himself.

Jaradakar wrote:
I don't know about you but in my play group most SM have been taking double LR and their las cannons would be hailing down on you. Who's ever unit is in front is not going to get cover saves (that's why having the lock take conceal helps). But if you have conceal, then you don't have enhance (ah the dilemmas).

Once again, they give each other cover!

Jaradakar wrote:
Wraithlords in most Wraithguard armies, serve as anti-assault units, hence they do that role better if given a Sword. Again as others pointed out a Brightlance would serve you better for some ranged anti-tank.

Are you serious? They have two attacks base. Id only do that if I really needed to tarpit a unit. Id rather have my 21 st. 6 shots.

Jaradakar wrote:

How does that list handle hordes?

On average 100 orks with shootas (200 shots) kills 1.22 WG.........

Then I open up with the WLs with their horde crushing guns, yadda yadda.

Jaradakar wrote: Maugen with 3 shots, cool.

4 shots hitting on 2s wounding orks on 2s no save whatsoever.

Jaradakar wrote:
Also daemons have been running rampant and most of them are not only immune to the miniature D-cannons instant death, but their plethora of invlun saves will also laugh at you, O' and they're close combat monsters would chew up the WG in HtH.

Meh, but if I am playing demons I am winning from the beginning, like I said no one around here is willing to play them either.

Im done arguing. Its not what this thread is about and frankly its not getting anywhere. I know my list, I like it. If you dont, dont play it.

GMMStudios wrote:
Those arent troops. They are more expensive as you are buying more seers.

Your right, they're not, they're elite! You take other units as troops because you're not blowing 350+ points on one unit. Also seeing how they're elite, you don't need the locks to be seers saving more points.

GMMStudios wrote:

Once again, they give each other cover!

Ah I see so you're trying to pull the checked board two units together, yeah that S@&#^* don't fly.

A) Not legal B) One unit has to be in front! The one in front does not get cover. C) If you pressed and keep trying to take cover for both I'd refuse to play you (not for poor sportsmanship, but for you trying to cheese/abuse the rules). You want a cover save for the font unit, take Conceal with your warlock (that is what it's for!).

GMMStudios wrote:
Are you serious? They have two attacks base.

Sure, Wraithlords have 2 base attack but if they get attacked by a squad of 10, that's 5 turns to kill the unit! Best they can get is hitting on a 3+ and that's if they're fighting something with a lower weapons skill than 4. In most cases the WL will be the one getting tar pitted. One way to help that is the Sword and being able to re-roll hits, it can be quite handy (I used to think as you did and always put two weapons on my Wraithlords, but I've realized how handy that re-roll to hit can be). Again it should not always be done, just if you want to use the Wraithlords as anti-assault unit.

GMMStudios wrote:
Im done arguing. Its not what this thread is about and frankly its not getting anywhere. I know my list, I like it. If you dont, dont play it.

Fair enough.

-Jara

Okay I promised that would be it, but you dont know some of the rules so I will clarify. Ill put my opinions aside for now.

Jaradakar wrote:

Your right, they're not, they're elite! You take other units as troops because you're not blowing 350+ points on one unit. Also seeing how they're elite, you don't need the locks to be seers saving more points.

No no no, 10 WG with a seer are a troops choice!

Edit: If you are trying to say that by taking WG as elite choices you save yourself troop choices....I dunno how to help you. Maxing out on troops is a good way to lose with Eldar.

Jaradakar wrote:
Ah I see so you're trying to pull the checked board two units together, yeah that S@&#^* don't fly.

A) Not legal B) One unit has to be in front! The one in front does not get cover. C) If you pressed and keep trying to take cover for both I'd refuse to play you (not for poor sportsmanship, but for you trying to cheese/abuse the rules). You want a cover save for the font unit, take Conceal with your warlock (that is what it's for!).

Its perfectly legal. And its not a checker board. You make a big X with the two units, but with only 3 or so models in the top "prongs" and you also spread htem a little wider. It is perfectly legal, the inherent downside is that I give my enemies cover, which MR doesnt care about

Jaradakar wrote:
Sure, Wraithlords have 2 base attack but if they get attacked by a squad of 10, that's 5 turns to kill the unit! Best they can get is hitting on a 3+ and that's if they're fighting something with a lower weapons skill than 4. In most cases the WL will be the one getting tar pitted. One way to help that is the Sword and being able to re-roll hits, it can be quite handy (I used to think as you did and always put two weapons on my Wraithlords, but I've realized how handy that re-roll to hit can be). Again it should not always be done, just if you want to use the Wraithlords as anti-assault unit.

You sort of switched sides in this arguement, but then you bring the sword up. Why the heck would you spend points to make something bad in CC moderately bad? This is a game where spam and cheap are king.

See you.

GMMStudios wrote:Okay I promised that would be it, but you dont know some of the rules so I will clarify. Ill put my opinions aside for now.

No, GMMStudios I do know the rules. I'm really surprised that you're not understanding as it's not that hard of a concept to grasp.

So I'll spell it out nice and slow like...

You take 3 Units of Elite Wraithguard, they're smaller than 10 (3-4) sized squads. This allows you greater flexibility in that you can shoot at 3 different targets as well as prevents you from being able to be assaulted (and have a 350+ squad tied up in CC). Yes, they loose the ability to score, but as I posted earlier (if you had read) I don't think upping the squad size to 10 is worth doing just to be become a scoring unit.

You then you can have up to 6 other troop slots (not saying you need to max them out) in your force org and due to taking smaller WG squads you will have points to spend on OTHER troop choices. With those other troops you can grab multiple points easier with those additional troops you will gain greater anti-horde (which will let your Wraithlords switch to be ranged anti-tank and anti-melee [The popular combo of Sword + Brightlance]).

GMMStudios wrote:
Its perfectly legal. And its not a checker board. You make a big X with the two units, but with only 3 or so models in the top "prongs" and you also spread htem a little wider. It is perfectly legal, the inherent downside is that I give my enemies cover, which MR doesnt care about

We'll have to agree to disagree (You can't do it, and I'd love for some other dakka posters to come in and set you straight).

GMMStudios wrote:
You sort of switched sides in this arguement, but then you bring the sword up. Why the heck would you spend points to make something bad in CC moderately bad? This is a game where spam and cheap are king.

It depends on what your plan is for the Wraithlord, I was just pointing out that it's not an absolute and depends greatly on your overall army composition.

(By your very argument then the wraithguard suck ;-)

Anyway I'm done, have fun playing 40K and may I never have to play against you.

-Jara

Can you show me where it says you cant do the banana formation?

No, the wraithguard arent ~150 points for two attacks, and they serve a completely different purpose altogether.

EDIT:

While I do take offense to how you have worded your post, I will apologize if I came off as rude, as there has to be some reason for your being snide. I cant possibly believe someone can get this offensive over an army list posted in passing.

Peace!

GMMStudios wrote:Can you show me where it says you cant do the banana formation?

While the rules do not specifically call out that you can not do such a formation they also do not specifically say you can. In my book that means until a clarification comes along via FAQ from GW then it's better to not try such tactics as it comes across as abusive (and offensive) in an attempt to do anything and everything you can to win (or gain every advantage you can) hence me taking offense to anyone who tries the tactic or thinks that "it is okay".

Lets look at from a point of the Warlock ability "conceal" perspective. It costs 15 points and always gives the unit a 5+ cover saves from ranged attacks. Do you really think that by clever placement you can get a 4+ cover save to all your troops for the low price of ZERO? How or why anyone thinks that is fair or legal is beyond my comprehension and again causes me to become very upset.

The intervening models rule imo takes place of the old target priority rules and basically helps promote shooting the closet units Vs ones that are in the back. No more having to roll LD, but if you choose not to shoot the closet then you'll be penalized by allowing your opponent to get a cover save. By clever placements/maneuvers you can protect some of your units, but one unit will always be closer and that unit does not get a cover save (unless they have conceal).

GMMStudios wrote:

While I do take offense to how you have worded your post, I will apologize if I came off as rude, as there has to be some reason for your being snide. I cant possibly believe someone can get this offensive over an army list posted in passing.

Peace!

Nope your right, it's not about your army list, though that has been frustrating in that I feel like you're not understanding me or what I've been trying to say but the real ire stems from the tactics you're trying to use.

-Jara

Well getting angry over what someone else does is a good way to have a coronary and I've learned to let things like that go.

Sometimes the best thing to do when someone is being unreasonable is to "ignore" them. ; )

@ GMMStudios

Hey man i really like that list you have there, i tried a similiar army on my own, checked on here and found this very imformative thread. Ive decided im gonna try a list almost exactly like yours for my next game cause the list i had did alright bad had some problems.

Here is the catch:

Im playing an 1850 game and im having alot of problems trying to find a solid way to adapt this army.

I have:

10 Wraithgaurd, Spiritseer w/ Enhance x2
Eldrad Ulthran
Maugan Ra
Wraithlord w/ Scatter Laser and Shuriken Cannon x3

So right there is right around 1575(i dont exactly know)

What i do know is 8 pathfinders makes it 1749, and 10 pathfinders makes it 1797.

Problem with 10 pathfinders is i can't for the life of me find out how to spend the last 53 points.

Tough choices, any ideas on how to adpat this to 1850 most effectively?

I wouldnt up to ten PFs unless you need to fill points.

On that note you could up the WLs to have missles instead of shuricannons, and up to ten PFs.

Thats 1842 in army builder.

Dunno, at that level you are more likely to see heavier tanks.

Actually, with this army I would go ahead and give two WLs missle and BL, and the third missle and scatter. Keep the PFs at 8 and you are at 1849.

Its always kinda hard to just add 100 points to an established army, but that might work for you.

Thanks for the ideas.

Yeah this usually isnt how i build armies but i had a similair concept in 1850 and i wanted to try it with 2 squads and those 2 HQs.

I figured that 1575ish point base was a good core to build off of till i got to the drawing board.

That is where it gets tough as you prolly noticed.

Thanks tho ill let you know how it goes