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Dante
VAS x9 w. 3x power fist & 2x meltagun

Corbulo
DC x9 - rhino

10x tactical Marine w. las/plas & power fist - rhino
10x tactical Marine w. las/plas & power fist - rhino
10x assault Marine w. 3x plasma pistol & power fist - rhino

G

I'm sure it could win, but it doesn't particularly seem designed to do so against either listed foe.

You would have a particularly difficult struggle in KP missions where rhinos are just giving them up far too easily.

That is only three KP. Why do you say "I'm sure it could win, but it doesn't particularly seem designed to do so against either listed foe. "?



G

Not to mention the bikers would have an easy time encircling rhinos and causing emergency disembarkation.

The rhino squads are obviously bait for the bikers. Jump infantry needs the rhinos to screen them since they do not have a 4+ cover save at all times, nor can they turbo boost.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:The rhino squads are obviously bait for the bikers. Jump infantry needs the rhinos to screen them since they do not have a 4+ cover save at all times, nor can they turbo boost.
G

While it is true that you can block lanes with the Rhinos, the nobz also are packing rokkits, meaning they can alpha strike the rhinos, bag 4 KP's, and then dance around the rest of your army at their leisure, making sure they charge when they want to. You don't have an awful lot of HTH power that is resilient enough to sustain a charge from Nob bikers, and you don't have alot of shooting that can effectively thin them out before they get there.

Against Dual Lash Oblit spam, the rhinos wont stand up to repeated Lascannoning, and the assault marines will have a hard time making a dent in plague marines, and even if they or the Death Company do wipe a unit out (since the chaos player will most likely not give you a multiple charge) then your units will become Lash/Plasma food. I played a BA list that was heavy on Lascannon Razorbacks in the 'Ard Boyz, but his troops were easily lashed and plasma'd to death, and the death company waffled on plague marines.

So no, I don't think this is the BA list to get it done.

"While it is true that you can block lanes with the Rhinos, the nobz also are packing rokkits, meaning they can alpha strike the rhinos, bag 4 KP's, and then dance around the rest of your army at their leisure, making sure they charge when they want to."

This is the best case for the nob bikers and you are not taking into consideration terrain, who goes first, deployment, etc. Sure a noob will just stick out there rhinos but obviously a veteran would be much wiser.

"You don't have an awful lot of HTH power that is resilient enough to sustain a charge from Nob bikers, and you don't have alot of shooting that can effectively thin them out before they get there."

Your kidding right?

"Against Dual Lash Oblit spam, the rhinos wont stand up to repeated Lascannoning, and the assault marines will have a hard time making a dent in plague marines, and even if they or the Death Company do wipe a unit out (since the chaos player will most likely not give you a multiple charge) then your units will become Lash/Plasma food. I played a BA list that was heavy on Lascannon Razorbacks in the 'Ard Boyz, but his troops were easily lashed and plasma'd to death, and the death company waffled on plague marines. "

See comments above about shooting at the transports. Obviously the assault Marines are not heavy hitters but the DC can rip through an entire DG squad before they even hit back.

G

No. Just not enough to withstand 3 oblits and two princes.

Why? Do you mean 3x3 Oblits?

G

Seem pretty defensive with this, keep in mind you asked if it can beat the (arguably) top two tournament builds.

I think the first answer was right, it CAN, as any army can, but I don't think its particularly got an edge on either army, or is even built too well to take on either army.

Two situations:

Nob bikers:

This army is much more manouverable than you, can pick its charge, and none of your units will stand up to a charge from a nob biker unit.

Your previous answer was "your kidding right?"

Not quite sure what your reasoning is that they could, nob bikers will hit with something like ~30 strength 6 attacks and ~10-12 powerklaw attacks, not much stands up to a nob biker charge, certainly not 10 marines of any ilk (minus assault terminators with the new stormshields).

There are 4 guns in your list capable of threatening nobs on bikes (ie, instakilling and ignoring FNP) however he'll get a cover save (4+) against all of them.

After that you have 6 power fists, and have to wade through ~2 warbosses and 20 nobs with those powerfists alone, when that powerfist will rarely survive to make attacks.

Also keep in mind his nob biker units are scoring, whereas he only has to kill 20 tactical marines, and you have nothing to capture objectives any longer.

Im not saying it can't beat it, but I'm saying the odds aren't the best.

Chaos lash/oblit/pm:

9 Oblits will end your rhino's in the first turn in all likelihood, but most likely you'll be devoid of transports by the end of turn 2. At this point you're at the mercy of lash, so your characters and their units won't be seeing combat in all likelihood.

With no hood to help block lash, and only 20 troops, its going to end up the same way as the last match up, he kills your troops, then picks apart the rest.

These are just my opinions and the way I see things going, you so far have been semi defensive (no offense) so take or leave the advice, but its what I see happening, regardless of the players skill.

Edit: Bolded a couple things to make it more readable

Your previous answer was "your kidding right?"

Not quite sure what your reasoning is that they could, nob bikers will hit with something like ~30 strength 6 attacks and ~10-12 powerklaw attacks, not much stands up to a nob biker charge, certainly not 10 marines of any ilk (minus assault terminators with the new stormshields).

There are 4 guns in your list capable of threatening nobs on bikes (ie, instakilling and ignoring FNP) however he'll get a cover save (4+) against all of them.

After that you have 6 power fists, and have to wade through ~2 warbosses and 20 nobs with those powerfists alone, when that powerfist will rarely survive to make attacks.

Let's give the BA the benefit of the doubt versus nob biker list... as I said prior the noob would just stick out his transports to be popped but the veteran will be much smarter. Here is best case analysis for BA list...

Warboss and nine nobz hit one tactical squad in assault and wipe them out. Next turn nob bikers are assaulted by Dante, VAS, Corbulo and DC:

Dante hits on 3+ with rerolls -> 5 hits, 3 wounds that ignore armor save
Corbulo hits on 3+ with rerolls -> 4 hits, 2 wounds
6 VAS hit on 4+ with rerolls -> 20 hit, 10 wound
9 DC hit on 4+ with rerolls -> 30 hit, 6 rends & 9 wounds
3x VAS with power fist hit on 4+ with reroll -> 10 hit & 8 insta-kill

Also assume Dante and VAS shoot before they charge for two more insta-kills.

Here is the count ->

3 wounds that ignore armor saves kills one nob
21 wounds kill 2.5 nobs
6 rends kill two more nobs
10 insta-kills 7 more nobs

Also keep in mind his nob biker units are scoring, whereas he only has to kill 20 tactical marines, and you have nothing to capture objectives any longer.

The assault Marines are a scoring unit.

9 Oblits will end your rhino's in the first turn in all likelihood, but most likely you'll be devoid of transports by the end of turn 2. At this point you're at the mercy of lash, so your characters and their units won't be seeing combat in all likelihood.

With no hood to help block lash, and only 20 troops, its going to end up the same way as the last match up, he kills your troops, then picks apart the rest.

I have to think on this one... any tactics anyone has to offer is appreciated.

G

My only problem is your logic on the last one, you're assuming its a veteran BA player, but that the nob biker player is almost blind.

I can't see even an overconfident nob biker player charging in a squad when its obvious he'll eat a charge from your two heavy hitters in the coming assault phase.

But even in this case, you wipe the nob biker squad, then your two heavy hitters are about to eat a charge from nob biker squad # 2 and get wiped, leaving only one heavy hitter left to come in and try to kill the second full nob biker unit.

Also keep in mind, the nob biker army typically includes Snikrot and 14 kommandos, who are no slouches in combat either, and since they come in from behind you, they force you to move forward from your board edge, towards the impending crash of nob bikers.


As to strategies against Lash/Oblit, you need a hood, and generally tank spam, however even this is far from foolproof. Not sure if BA have a way to get to the oblits (vanquard marines assaulting when they deepstrike, drop pod units of guys to just torrent them down?something of that sort?)

"I can't see even an overconfident nob biker player charging in a squad when its obvious he'll eat a charge from your two heavy hitters in the coming assault phase. "

Then in objective based games the end result is draw? I was merely pointing out that the BA list does actually have significant hitting power.

Question - how would you deploy the Oblits in DoW setup?

G

Or the nob biker initiates 2 charges at once, and you have to decide which one you want to team up on, or you have to decide to split fire, and probably not kill either squad on the charge with just 1 dedicated hitter on each.

BA does have hitting power, just not sure its up to snuff with nob bikers (I'm not sure almost anyone is)

Oblits in DOW?

Hrm, they're going to not get to deploy due to the setup, but I'd most likely still walk them on since moving doesn't affect them firing heavy weapons, and deepstriking is a bit risky/no need to get closer to the enemy.

I don't think first turn or second turn would change that really, just walk them on and start plinking away with your gun of choice as per normal.

In DoW if the Oblits setup initially or walk on transports can reach them in two turns.

G

Green Blow Fly wrote:
Dante hits on 3+ with rerolls -> 5 hits, 3 wounds that ignore armor save
Corbulo hits on 3+ with rerolls -> 4 hits, 2 wounds
6 VAS hit on 4+ with rerolls -> 20 hit, 10 wound
9 DC hit on 4+ with rerolls -> 30 hit, 6 rends & 9 wounds
3x VAS with power fist hit on 4+ with reroll -> 10 hit & 8 insta-kill

Also assume Dante and VAS shoot before they charge for two more insta-kills.

Here is the count ->

3 wounds that ignore armor saves kills one nob
21 wounds kill 2.5 nobs
6 rends kill two more nobs
10 insta-kills 7 more nobs

That many wounds caused means the ork player will get to spread around quite a few wounds, and will be able to allocate ID wounds to nobs that are wounded by power weapons, further reducing the effectiveness of your charge. The Nobs will also have quite a few powerklaws coming back that would most likely head towards your IC's for easy KP's.

EDIT: Also, since the DC and Assault Marines have to relinquish their Jump Packs to have a Rhino, I'm not really seeing how they would be able to get a charge off of the Nobz unless the Ork player really wants you to. I mean, if you castle, his best bet is to just dance around you shooting with Dakkaguns and rokkits, and then do a late game turbo boost to contest an objective or so. The bikes have much more maneuverability that Rhino squads. It may even be better to spam Assault squads so that you have 60 of them or so, and then just charge Dante and Corbulo in head first behind a wave of assault marines.

I say it doesn't seem particularly suited to handle either because it doesn't have any of the commonly accepted counters to either.

Good, easy counters, for nob bikes: significant amount of multishot S8 weaponry to win the shooting game + significant amount of S8 assault to win the assault game. Miss out on either and you need to either nullify their shooting game entirely (Armor 12+), or nullify their assault game. The list you've posted in my opinion loses both. So where is the counter?
2 lascannons are not a threat to the bikenobs
your entire army rapidfiring is not a threat to the bikenobs
The bikenobs have a greater threat range than anything you have
So... what's the plan besides hope the bike nob player is an idiot and sacrifices an entire 750 point unit for a single tac squad that is not even a threat?

As for lash + oblits + plague marines, sure you'd win a charge against plague marines if they are all just standing there waiting to get hit by your death company or you'd get lashed forward twice and lose your countercharge to plasmacannons and rapidfiring PMs prior to getting charged by the dual princes. Again, none of the easy counters for these things and instead just bodies.
Hood to break the lash. More S8 Ap2 shooting to defeat oblits at range. Some kind of plan that doesn't involve your opponent charging into a trap?

Okay thanks for the good feedback in the last two posts. I will think about it!

G

Even Your logic is flawed in the above scenario.

1. If possible why doesn't the ork player take Nob unit 1and avoid your tactical and charge the VAS and Dante it's obvious that they'll do the most damage.

2. It will be possible the supposed countercharge in behind a rhino for cover and the tactical is in front they can have Nob unit 2 shoot the rhino and engage both the tactical and the countercharge thanks to 5th ed rules. (to properly screen you need to large expendable units that are both in BTB)

3. In your example above your assuming 0 casulties from shooting.

4. Your assuming that the VAS will be alive to use thaose fists.

5. Your assuming that all 20 models will be in range to srike

6. Even if all this does happen they way you planned... well allow me to demonstrate.

Nob player charges Tacticals and they die

Death company and VAS charge Nobs and kill them

Nobs unit 2 comes in and kill both squads

Now you're left with 10 marines and 10 assult marines to kill Snikrot 14 kommandos 10 nobs a warboss and whatever other scoring units he's got.

Good Luck!

Okay here is a new list:

Dante
5x VAS w. 3x power fist & 2x meltagun - jump pack
5x VAS w. 3x power fist & 2x meltagun - jump pack

Corbulo
5x DC - rhino

10x tactical Marine w. power fist & meltagun - rhino
10x tactical Marine w. power fist & meltagun - rhino
10x assault Marine w. power fist & plasma pistol - rhino

Attack bike w. multi-melta
Attack bike w. multi-melta

G

Scared of this one huh? 9x melta in your face... & 9x power fists!

G

Could be a bit better, personally I just don't like the low model count, and the meltas are short ranged, by the time you're in 12 inches to use them, you'll have been charged.

Keep in mind, sisters lists get trashed by builds like those you're talking about, and they field far more melta's than that.

This list gives you more of a chance of getting a charge off with one of your jump squads, which is good, however this just equalizes the playing field with regards to speed, and it won't take a lot of shooting to remove the LOS barriers (3 armor 11 tanks) and then shooting the 2 squads of 5 marines behind.


As for chaos, same issues, even worse in some situations, multi-meltas will get lascannon'd by oblits first turn (won't take many shots to instakill 2 models) and your jump packs will be lashed into terrain, forcing dangerous terrain tests on the way in and the way out.

There are actually four rhinos...

DC, 2x tactical Marines, assault Marines

The DC are a real bargain as you are only paying for the rhino (cost of each DC Marine is built into the elite choices and the troops).

Here is the model count ->

20x tactical Marine
10x assault Marine
10x VAS
5x DC
2x HQ
2x attack bike

Total = 49 (plus the 4 rhinos)

That is actually a lot of Marines.

In objective based games you use OCE to run the rhinos up to the objectives and the jump squads and bikes come in behind them. From my experience the three troops do very well at holding objectives.

G

Rhino's:

3 Rhinos or 4 Rhinos, Is that a big difference to 9 BS4 lascannons?

9 BS4 Lascannons = 6 hits = 4 Pens, 1 Glance

Army Size:

You realize the ork player with his uber point bloated units is fielding almost as large of an army, right?

My eldar dual jetbike seer council fields 49 models.


I won't argue DC are a bargain, they are, but thats not really the point

Since you seem happy/convinced your list can take on these armies, i recommend you find one to test against, then come back and let us know how it went. You may understand how their builds function better if you play them rather than just looking at their army lists on paper.

Also, when you say "From my experience the three troops do very well at holding objectives"

Is that experience in casual games, or against these two specific lists, because these tournament lists are an entirely different beast from your average army/game

Actually this weekend I played the guy who finished highest with eldar at the Baltimore GT with a similar list... three games -> 1W - 1L - 1D for both of us. We played all three missions too.

G

Theres a big difference between his eldar list and the lists you're talking about.

If i remember right he ran one council, for starters, and although he "placed highest with eldar" he isn't playing the Lash/Oblit or the Nob Biker army.

Take his council, which I'm sure you had troubles with. Make two of them. Make them scoring.

Then you've got more of a feel for what the nob biker list is like

He wasn't running a seer council. It's a very mobile army that can shoot a lot... in fact its a lot faster than my army I was playing, which is a bit different from what i have presented here but is similar. The one disadvantage of this particular eldar list is assault which helped me to hold onto objectives.

I had no chance versus the eldar in the kill point mission though.

G

targetawg wrote:Rhino's:

3 Rhinos or 4 Rhinos, Is that a big difference to 9 BS4 lascannons?

9 BS4 Lascannons = 6 hits = 4 Pens, 1 Glance

Remember that the rhinos can pop smoke so on average that is only 2 pens... the Chaos player will need to roll a 6 to remove it from the table. If the rhino can move onto an objective and is only wrecked it has served it's purpose.

So anyways the list is a concept so is only theory hammer but I think that is the best place to start. It is based on other BA armies I have played a lot in tournies so I do have some practical experience. I am looking for constructive feedback so I can perfect the overall design.

G

What was he running then?

No offense, but it doesn't sound like he used his GT army, or the toughest build available to eldar, meaning its like comparing apples to orangoutangs if you're trying to draw conclusions about what it would be like to face the CSM or Nob biker builds.