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Heres how the story goes:

i set up a 1k game friendly against a tau player my first mistake, now we were playing on a 4x6 board, 2 big bits of terrain, 4 small. all good.

now the mission was seize ground, 3 objects.

Here are the army lists, im eldar

Eldar: ME

HQ
Maugan Ra 195

Troops
10 wraithguard 384
-spiritseer
-singing spear

3 Jetbikes 76
-1 cannon

3 Jetbikes 76
-1 cannon

Heavy
War Walker 90
-2 brightlances

3 War Walkers 180
-6 scatter lasers

Tau

HQ

shas el
-Twin linked flamer, black sun filter 59pts

elite

Shas`ui
-Twin linked flamer, black sun filter 34pts
Shas`ui
-Twin linked flamer, black sun filter 34pts
shas`ui
-Twin linked flamer, black sun filter 34pts

Shas`ui
-Twin linked flamer, black sun filter 34pts
Shas`ui
-Twin linked flamer, black sun filter 34pts
shas`ui
-Twin linked flamer, black sun filter 34pts

Shas`ui
-Twin linked flamer, black sun filter 34pts
Shas`ui
-Twin linked flamer, black sun filter 34pts
shas`ui
-Twin linked flamer, black sun filter 34pts

Troops

firewarriors
-10 firewarriors, carbines, shas`ui, bonding knife 115pts

firewarriors
-10 firewarriors, carbines, shas`ui, bonding knife 115pts

Kroot

-12 kroot 84pts

-14 kroot 98pts

Heavy support

Broad side, black sun filter 73pts

Broad side, black sun filter 73pts

Broad side, black sun filter 73pts

now as it went i took ou all kroot, 1 broadside, and wounded another, and killed 8 fire warriors. i was left with 2 war walkers with scatters, 7 wraithguard +spiritseer and thats it. his tactics were to sit back and shoot with everything, including kroot and hey hurt. he held 2 objects and i had 1, i managed a draw by on the last turn for the whole game shoot with my 2 war walkers at one of the fire warrior squads sitting on the objective and killing half and making them run out of claiming range, dumb luck though.

Can anyone help me to as why i got slaughter so bad?
If you need more info, just ask

I would guess you didn't use terrain to your advantage to keep out of his mass numbers of shots and cross-fire situations. It also looks like you took a lot of points in a small number of models which also plays to his overwhelming numbers. You're bound to roll one's eventually. 21 models to his 59 models.
One other thing I like to do against Tau is to rush and get his big guns in close combat where he has poor stats and cannot fire those big guns.
I don't know the size of the terrain, but was 25% of the board covered with terrain? If not, the board is more advantageous to shooters.

even with 3+ saves on the bikes from kroot shots i still lost them

Were you rolling poorly?

It was average or below but being shot at 30+ per turn and getting 10 wounds or so, it was only time

Where are all your Devilfish and Hammerheads?

Were you deep striking those crisis suits to try to get those flamers into range? Did that 1/3 of your points actually get in range to shoot anything?

First off, i was ELDAR, not tau, but it all started at the table edge. no deep striking. if you ever have the chance to run this list, run it. your opponent [me] will have to choose between the broadside that kill things fast, the suits which kill verything in range or the troops and take heavy loses.

he only started moving turn 3 but did get in range and if i was assaulty then he would have gunned me

Oops, I guess I was just surprised at that sort of Tau list. So much for my early morning reading comprehension.

Assuming that the broadsides took out your war walkers, that seems a bit unlucky on your part.

For me, I would have had the bright lance squad kill broadsides instead of Shas'ui. I assume the turbo laser squad and the bikes were busy killing kroot and fire warriors. Did the wraithguard get in range to shoot anything?

This guy used nine Crisis suits and they all had flamers?

...

Wow. Things have changed since I played Tau.

It does seem that you had very little in the way of long-range anti-armour weaponry, coupled with lots of easy points for those Broadsides.

the wraithguard whipped out most of a fire warrior squad that came close and sent them running and where the only reason i got a draw, tough as nails and stick around, love em ^^

Maybe a pathfinder squad instead of the jetbikes would work better in this kind of army. Tau have a difficult time killing them with a 2+ cover save. Sure all the crisis suits have flamers, but to get that close he'll need to come to you, which the Tau never like. Especially since you can then use those 12" wraithguard guns.

The war walker with bright lances and maugan ra seem like very expensive options in such a small battle. Maybe a basic farseer with fortune to add to your wraithguard would be nice as an HQ?

I'd also suggest giving the wraithguard spiritseer conceal or destructor and dropping the singing spear. When you get in range to throw it, that one str 9 attack won't matter with all those wraithguard firing as well.

I see two reasons why you almost got tabled.
1) You played against tau at 1000 points. Tau are stronger at low point levels than most other armies. It's the higher points values (2000+) when they start their downfall

2) Your list is not a good list against Tau.

You need to close with him & close fast.

I'd be more likely to take Warlocks, bike units, tricked out Falcons, transports on anything that I can.
Forget the Wraithguard. too pricey at this low points. Warwalkers are fust too fragile.

Fast vehicles with ALL the tricks and HtH combat squads are your friends.

Troops with Lance Weapons (What's the cheap one for you? Guardians. Right?).

Striking Scorp's, F Dragons & Banshees in Serpents will HURT the Tau. If you take bikes, take warlocks with them. A farseer would be a nice addition to something that you plan on getting locked in HtH with.

Also, 4x6 is a bit large for 1000 points. 4x4 is more appropriate.


...and, for God's sake... USE that terrain.


Eric

wow, you took the worst possible list against Tau.

When I'm playing against armies with a basic weapon strength of 5 I try not to take small model count/ high toughness infantry/light vehicles

you were always in a bad position as Tau can kill wraithgaurd as their main strength (tough) gets countered by high strength weaponary.

your war walkers had target written all over them, especially the squadren of three, which is god send to a fire warrior squad trying to make their points back.

the jetbikes units are too small to take any fire, and the fact that Suits can JSJ counters your JSJ.

quite frankly i'd be impressed you did as well as you did, you must be some tactician.

go and give GBF some tips on fighting lost causes on his little thread, it makes me chuckle

Agree with the Dr.

He had a ton of high-strength shots, and you brought a shooty list with lots of light vehicles, and small-number count units protected by moderate to good toughness (which his high strength shooting counters).

You just brought a bad list for fighting Tau.

Fighting Tau is a lot like fighting Guard (bear with me), only a LOT harder.
When I play at my FLGS, I normally play MEQ players, which is nice as my Eldar list is tricked out against power armour. A few weeks back I played my best mate for the first time ever, and he's Guard.

I *nearly* had my ass handed to me. Nearly ;-)

One thing Tau get is massed shots via their Fire Warriors. To combat this you'll need either a big ol' template (Prism), or you'll need to get into assault nice and easy (10 banshees will get 40 attacks on the charge).

Fair do's, if this player is clever he'll counter with his Kroot, so you need to be doing something about them. The answer to that is quite simply his tactic: massed firepower. I personally would choose a guardian squad with a scatter laser, or a Bladestorming squad of DAs.
A Vyper with SLs isn't going to hurt either.
your prism would also do nicely here, nice big template, low toughness. Yum.

Those suits are gonna be a pain. Best thing there is something equally as fast, and packing a punch. Jetbikes would be a boon here, especially with warlocks and spears and Shuri cannons. I'd even get a jetbike Autarch up in his grill with a fusion gun or laser lance. You can use the same bike squads against the vehicles too.

It's been mentioned before that Pathfinders would be a good choice. I personally never leave home without them. I've taken down Devestators, a Chaos Termie Lord, A Wraithlord and a Dreadnaut before, all solely with my long-rifled friends.

I don't have time to add up all that up, but you could put a great list together for 1000pts, and seeing as the majority of these units are troops, you're gonna trounce the guy on objective-based missions.
I personally always go for total annihilation becuase I'm sassy! :-D

The real trouble i have to making a list for all comers and still keep it fluffy, Ulthwe fluffy ^^

I was really surprised at the amount of damage kroot shooting can do, i have never faced anyone who has used these to shoot rather than assault

ulthwe fluffy, my young emo-kid, is guardians, guardians and maybe some more guardians.

yes the war walkers are fluffy, and i can just about go with the jetbikes, though that's more Siam-Hann.

Ulthwe is all about lots of foot-slogging Gaurdians, you can mechanise them, but basically you need gaurdians.

and Eldrad

im staying away from eldrad as i was about the only one around my area that used him back in 4th edition but now everyone uses him and not in the fluffy way, [i know childish of me] but they are killing eldrads fluff and i refuse to use him now ^^*

Thats why i like Maugan Ra, as he has help Ulthwe with the eye of terror, and no one that i know is using him, or any of the other pheonix lords come to think of it.

Wave serpents dont fit the fluff to much so i guess im going to be have a foot slogging list with a few vipers and fire prisms

Maugan Ra is neat but I feel that a Farseer with Fortune would've helped your Wraithguard much more. Considering that they make up nearly 40% of your army, you need to keep them alive to contribute.

In my opinion both Maugan Ra and Eldrad cost too much points for a 1000 point army list. A Farseer with Fortune (and perhaps runes of warding for when you face a lash chaos army) costs half of what they cost. Fortuned Wraithguard are one of the thoughest units in the game and, being troops, are also a scoring unit. Tau have a lot of strength 5 shooting, but all those strength 5 shots will just bounce off of your Wraithguard when they are fortuned (3+ re-rollable save). A Spiritseer with Conceal will give them a 5+ re-rollable cover save as well. However if you think you can get them cover without conceal, without limiting your Wraithguard movement too much, then I'd suggest either Embolden (so your farseer, who will join the wraithguard, can re-roll failed psychic tests) or Destructor.

For the second troops choice in your army I would suggest pathfinders. Deploy them in cover and they get a very nice 2+ cover save. This means the opponent will have to get near you to kill them (flamers), which means they will have to go past your Wraithguard.

This should be a pretty solid core. Adding units like Wraithlords for long range anti-tank fire and close combat support, or Harlequins for close combat support (running in front of the wraithguard to give them a 4+ cover save). The Avatar would be nice close combat support as well, though I'd prefer the two units named above. For more anti-infantry fire you could add double Scatter-Laser War Walkers. All these last units are just a matter of personal preference though.

This type of army also scales to higher points values very well. Replacing the Farseer by Eldrad gives so much utility (fortuning both the harlequins and wraithguard, or mind warring Ork Nobz out of the big units of boyz and than charging a Wraithlord in there, holding them up forever).

Hope I have been of some help.

I agree that Eldrad's too expensive for a 1000 point list but, to the OP:

You shouldn't ask how to build a tougher list, then shoot down the responses because "everyone else does it and I don't like how they do it."

If you want to NOT get tabled, you have to build a good list AND be a good player. One or the other is, simply, not good enough.

If you have limits on what models you will or will not play, you should list them up front.

For example;

"I'd like your suggestions but, for the record, I don't play Wraith Lords, the Avatar or Eldrad. Anything else is fair game."

That gives us a FAR better idea for suggestions.

Eric

@Eric, sorry man, ok heres the not taking no matter what list:
-Eldrad
-Yriel
-Dire Avengers (i must used guardians)
-Wave Serpents

Rest is all good ^^

a Few things. Although sometimes the dice gods may be against you. You should see me with my lascannons.

First of all if I recall correctly since all of his elite crisis suit squads are armed identically that means that they wounds that are inflicted on them cannot be taken on each individual model. If you inflict 2 wounds one of the models dies. And if even one of those models dies he has to take a leadership test. (correct me if I'm wrong but I seem to think that is how it works since the wounds are all taken at once and not seperated)

Aside from that note, I'd say some cc squads would be right up your ally. Either infiltrating SS or banshee's in a Wave Serpent, heck why not both.

Wraith Guard and War walkers are going to get shot to mincemeat by the army you are up against, as well as being to pricey and in small numbers.

Take big squads and close the distance.

Your also playing Ulthwe take large guardian squads!!!

Squig_herder wrote:@Eric, sorry man, ok heres the not taking no matter what list:
-Eldrad
-Yriel
-Dire Avengers (i must used guardians)
-Wave Serpents

Rest is all good ^^

Then (IMO), you shouldn't even bring your army. Just show up, shake his hand, and congratulate him.

No Wave Serpents? Geez, man. Those are integral for any fight against tau, IMO. Your boys will just tear tau UP in HtH, if your army is built right... but, without tricked out Serpents, you're just not going to get there.

Same goes for the Dire Avengers. I'm not saying to spam them in your list... but they're all kinds of good (for Eldar). FOR AN ELDAR UNIT, they shoot and assault reasonably well. They're a very good "all round" unit.

I happen to like the characters but, considering your reasons for not wanting them, I can "ignore" them. : )

You REALLY need to reconsider the other two, though... especially the Wave Serpents. They'll be key to a rout for you.


Eric

@Eric, i tend to disagree there, have fought against eldar list with no vehicles at all, and they are still very strong. Yes they maybe fast and abit more durable but if squiggy doesnt want them, then i say go him, im sick of seeing the same lists everywhere, no variety

That all well and go, it hard to get the right balance using little no tanks, especially with eldar.

As a tau player i am quite suprised at his list, mostly his suits.

Here are my suggestions to you:

Guardians - they are cheap (your uthwe so good there too) and you get some hvy wep.

Make him come to you - the suits only have a template range and being completely similar means they cant divide wounds up. Also they lack the all important bonding knife - so every one you kill they have a good chance of running.

Once again - pathfinders. snipe out 1 or 2 suits and he will have issues.

Walking eldar are fine - got 2 friends with them and have difficulty with any of his fortuned units. So do invest in a farseer with at least fortune.

I agree with some of the other stuff stated, however I would say that tau do start to fall behind in the 1800 range.

BloodDeathAssault wrote:@Eric, i tend to disagree there, have fought against eldar list with no vehicles at all, and they are still very strong. Yes they maybe fast and abit more durable but if squiggy doesnt want them, then i say go him, im sick of seeing the same lists everywhere, no variety

That all well and go, it hard to get the right balance using little no tanks, especially with eldar.

Did you fight them while playing TAU?

A well built Tau list is a hands-down winner against footslogging Eldar, barring (a) an inept Tau player or (b) angry dice Gods.


I barely know Tau... I'd be pretty crappy at them... I think I could beat a footslogging Eldar force with 'em.

Just my $.02. YMMV, of course.


Eric

Lets try not to bite, ok ^^

It all depends on the army build and tactics.

MagickalMemories, you seem to be really underestimating the survivability of a fortuned Wraithguard unit taken as a troops choice. They will simply shrug off most of the high strength shots the Tau put out, due to a re-rollable 3+ armour save. Sure the Tau have weapons to ignore that save, but they sure don't have a whole lot of them and the Wraithguard will simply take their re-rollable 4+ cover save against those.

Pathfinders are very hard for the Tau to kill as well. They get a 2+ cover save which is very difficult for the Tau to circumvent, due to not wanting to be close to their opposition. Yes, they can decrease the cover save with markerlights, but taking lots of markerlights in a 1000 points match will make your main army very small.

These two units alone will make the Tau suffer, especially in objective missions where the opposing player will want to kill your troops.

Adding a Harlequin unit with a shadowseer (which is commonly seen to support the Wraithguard, as close combat is their biggest weakness) will only make it worse for the Tau.

The Wraithlords and the Avatar will be killed pretty damn fast against the Tau though.

Airmaniac wrote:MagickalMemories, you seem to be really underestimating the survivability of a fortuned Wraithguard unit taken as a troops choice. They will simply shrug off most of the high strength shots the Tau put out, due to a re-rollable 3+ armour save. Sure the Tau have weapons to ignore that save, but they sure don't have a whole lot of them and the Wraithguard will simply take their re-rollable 4+ cover save against those.

Yeah, this looks like it'll be decently survivable, but without transports you have a big difficulty in the form of slow unit + short range. His entire setup is Kroot + mech + JSJ. I foresee one big super unit getting mobbed and bogged by kroot in HTH, out maneuvered by mech, and out maneuvered by JSJ. This is a huge point sink (especially w/out transports) that, if your opponent configures for, can easily be wrecked by a plethora of S6+ AP2 weaponry on crisis suits.

Pathfinders are very hard for the Tau to kill as well. They get a 2+ cover save which is very difficult for the Tau to circumvent, due to not wanting to be close to their opposition. Yes, they can decrease the cover save with markerlights, but taking lots of markerlights in a 1000 points match will make your main army very small.

Uhm... his opponent is running something like 18 flamers on crisis suits. How do you propose those T3/5+ pathfinders living through JSJ units with piles of templates?

Adding a Harlequin unit with a shadowseer (which is commonly seen to support the Wraithguard, as close combat is their biggest weakness) will only make it worse for the Tau.

Harlequins are certainly a pretty nasty unit for shooty Tau, but again, there's the issue of Suits with flamers. If you can get these guys to hit home in a telling multiple unit assault, yes, you should be able to make their points stick. BUT, I'd say that's a 50-50 chance at best. Odds are very good of a squad of flamer suits showing up and WTFPWNing your T3 5++ units with 18 flamer wounds.

The Wraithlords and the Avatar will be killed pretty damn fast against the Tau though.

Agreed.

If you're going to do de-meched eldar, try two mega footslogging seer councils with 9 outflanking war walkers. It'll still be a fight, but fleet should even the field and high initiative should flatten the kroot in hth.