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Lately I've been thinking about running different configurations on DPs rather than just Wings, MoS, LoS. Not because I want to be fluffy but because I have some DPs painted in some lovely schemes I'd like to see on the table. I hear a DP with MoN and warptime is pretty tough and good in combat with wings of course. Also DPs with MoS, warptime and wings have seen some play at my FLGS albeit a long while ago.

What I've mainly been considering are Tzeentch builds. It just seems MoT is really kind of a waste on DPs. It's expensive and doesn't really provide a great invulnerable save boost, only puts it at 4+. Sure he can use two powers and take two, but then they become huge point sinks. I've been thinking of a MoT, Wings, Doombolt/Warptime combo DP to set up great shots and assaults with Warptime into a doombolt shooting phase and a rerolling CC. But I've tried him before in 4th ed and he got shot down pretty fast and failed in assault.

It seems MoK is also completely useless. I've seen it on one list here on Dakka and even when I give advice I tell people not to take it. All it does is +1 A. For the same points you can have Doombolt which is IMO better than MoK.

How viable do you think other configurations of DPs do in competitive environs?

MoK is an absolute waste. Better to take Warptime, rename it "Rage of Khorne" or what-have-you, and call it a Khorne Daemon Prince. Way more effective.

Another point - Warptime isn't just re-rolls in close combat, you get to re-roll failed rolls to hit and wound during the shooting phase, too. Tzeentch DPs with Doombolt and Warptime can do a lot of damage.

Doesn't Warptime allow you to reroll all of the dice you threw to hit or to wound, not just the misses?

I know how warptime works, I was just neglecting to talk about the specifics. But on some level dumping 185 points into a single DP with MoT, Wings, and Warptime/Doombolt seems wasteful to me when I can get extreme tactical advantages for 30 points less.

But you have to take into account the tactical advantage of keeping friends

Yeah, i was talking to MinMax re: how Warptime works.

For those times when you absolutely need to score some wounds, Warptime is awesome. But you do run the risk of not really needing it if you have a nice night of rolls.

The combo you're talking about really does seem steep. Especially given that, if you want to keep him alive, you'll either have to field a second one or have some other very expensive/lethal models on the table to remove the temptation to kill him.

If you really wana have some fun try warptime+wind of chaos and watch your opponents face when you drop the no armour saves template wounding on 4s with rerolls then following assult destroy a squad in one turn

Maleficorum wrote:If you really wana have some fun try warptime+wind of chaos and watch your opponents face when you drop the no armour saves template wounding on 4s with rerolls then following assult destroy a squad in one turn

Yes, my Ahriman killed an entire squad of Plague Marines (and the last scoring unit) in one shot with Warp-Wind.

Maleficorum wrote:If you really wana have some fun try warptime+wind of chaos and watch your opponents face when you drop the no armour saves template wounding on 4s with rerolls then following assult destroy a squad in one turn

How is the wording on that though? I thought they weren't rolls to wound, but just rolls you had to score 4+ on so you didn't get rerolls via warptime. But I think I might be wrong. Sounds like I should start trying out some MoT DP combos if it can kill a squad of PMs.

Any models fully or partially under the template suffer one wound a D6 roll of 4+, with no armour or cover saves allowed.

Yup, it's a roll to wound, like a poisoned weapon.

It's a pretty expensive Daemon Prince though, even with the improved survivability.

I'd say that Mark of Nurgle for +1 T is the second-best option, after Slaanesh+Lash.

Nurglitch wrote:Any models fully or partially under the template suffer one wound a D6 roll of 4+, with no armour or cover saves allowed.

Yup, it's a roll to wound, like a poisoned weapon.

It's a pretty expensive Daemon Prince though, even with the improved survivability.

I really wouldn't even call a 4+ Invulnerable added survivability. He has a 3+ to use normally. It's almost like he is always in cover. So if anyone tries to Lascannon, Plasma Gun, or Melta him he will be alright.

MinMax wrote:MoK is an absolute waste. Better to take Warptime, rename it "Rage of Khorne" or what-have-you, and call it a Khorne Daemon Prince. Way more effective.

Another point - Warptime isn't just re-rolls in close combat, you get to re-roll failed rolls to hit and wound during the shooting phase, too. Tzeentch DPs with Doombolt and Warptime can do a lot of damage.

Is this Codex: CSM Daemon Princes.

All four are good, really. Don't overlook the 140 point Khorne Demon Prince with Wings and +1 Attack, although the 4++ is good too.

Expensive? Yes, brownie points in tourneys when comp counts can you cant spam lash to much = DING!!! I do have to say though despite the 4++ yes they are fragile, Normally I hide mine behind my trusty land raider lol. But as we all know when comp doesn't matter.... Time to open another can of cheese!

PS: Warp-wind 1 shotting a squad of PMs is juicy

Tacobake wrote:

MinMax wrote:MoK is an absolute waste. Better to take Warptime, rename it "Rage of Khorne" or what-have-you, and call it a Khorne Daemon Prince. Way more effective.

Another point - Warptime isn't just re-rolls in close combat, you get to re-roll failed rolls to hit and wound during the shooting phase, too. Tzeentch DPs with Doombolt and Warptime can do a lot of damage.

Is this Codex: CSM Daemon Princes.

All four are good, really. Don't overlook the 140 point Khorne Demon Prince with Wings and +1 Attack, although the 4++ is good too.

It's CSM DPs.

When I look at a 140 Mok, Wings DP I just think "5 fewer points and I have a wingless Lash DP". And comparing the effectiveness of every DP configuration to Lash will be called "unfair" to the other set ups. But when your trying to examine the validity of such configurations you have to take into account that Lash is a very very good psychic power. It's tactical implications are enormous. While MoK, Wings layout is just "Fly around... find some cover... Fly around... find some cover. ALL RIGHT! I can attack now" While Lash princes fly around then Lash, fly around then lash, then fly around Lash and assault (on some occasions at least).

Sgt. Salt wrote:But you have to take into account the tactical advantage of keeping friends

Laughed my arse off when reading this one.

Honestly the MoT Prince w/ Warptime + Wind of Chaos was my first pick when building my first chaos army. Then I discovered the joys of the lash. The Tz DP is my favorite build for non-competative play, I just don't like lashing my friends too much, I can tell it's not fun for them. The Tz Prince does die in a lot of games, but he makes his points in either kills or the amount of firepower taken off of my other troops to kill him. Just use terrain to your advantage and you'll be fine. If you're playing to kick someone's rear though, without regard to comp., it's best to stick with the winged MoS DP with lash.

Thalor

Don't forget the MoN+Nurgle's Rot. With the number of people running horde Orks, it's a useful power, especially with the larger base size on Princes. Useful against anything that's not a Marine, and occasionally useful against them too.

tzeentchling wrote:Don't forget the MoN+Nurgle's Rot. With the number of people running horde Orks, it's a useful power, especially with the larger base size on Princes. Useful against anything that's not a Marine, and occasionally useful against them too.

I like that one, and it is a perfect way to fit in some anti-Horde.

just out of curiosity, do people think that the daemon prince with MoN that has the nurgle's rot is better that the one with warptime??

kormas wrote:just out of curiosity, do people think that the daemon prince with MoN that has the nurgle's rot is better that the one with warptime??

I generally don't take it because it's only puny S3 AP- attacks.

Nurgle's rot, while good against mobs of sucky stuff, won't help at all vs. things like Terminators, ICs, tanks, dreads, etc.

Against vast hordes, I'd rather use Lash and then fire some blasts/flamers/ordinance.

Against elite groups like terminators, I'd rather use Lash and fire some strong guns or use a Nurgle warptime /Slaanesh warptime / Tzeentch wind-of-chaos prince.

TheBloodGod wrote:

kormas wrote:just out of curiosity, do people think that the daemon prince with MoN that has the nurgle's rot is better that the one with warptime??

I generally don't take it because it's only puny S3 AP- attacks.

Nurgle's rot, while good against mobs of sucky stuff, won't help at all vs. things like Terminators, ICs, tanks, dreads, etc.

Against vast hordes, I'd rather use Lash and then fire some blasts/flamers/ordinance.

Against elite groups like terminators, I'd rather use Lash and fire some strong guns or use a Nurgle warptime /Slaanesh warptime / Tzeentch wind-of-chaos prince.

I hate to have to agree with you on this but I do. Lash is just far better than Rot. It's better in that it moves things back and bunches them up for high powered shooting phases and assaults while Rot seems to just be an afterthought before an assault or while one is locked in combat.

If I was using a MoN, Warptime, Wings (Maybe) DP I wouldn't run him into a horde of anything. 5 Attacks on the charge rerolling to hit and wound isn't much against 20 ork boyz. The fight is hard to call though. With a higher toughness from MoN the boyz are going to have a rough time hitting him. If the boyz have the charge though they are going to bury a MoN DP in attacks. But I do think if he had Rot he could do better against the boyz as long as he has the advantage of flying up, laying down Rot, then charging in. I think a Rot DP stands a much better chance than a MoN warptime DP against larger units of anything.

Personally, I really like the Mok and wings configuration for a few reasons. One, is that its cheap and DP are really broken anyway so I think its worth it. Also, A Mok prince on the charge has to potential to dish out 6 wounds. So if you feel like being bold and betting you will hit with 6, wound with 6, and your opponent will fail 6 saves (very fun when this happens) then this is the unit for you.

just my thought.

extrenm(54) wrote:Personally, I really like the Mok and wings configuration for a few reasons. One, is that its cheap and DP are really broken anyway so I think its worth it. Also, A Mok prince on the charge has to potential to dish out 6 wounds. So if you feel like being bold and betting you will hit with 6, wound with 6, and your opponent will fail 6 saves (very fun when this happens) then this is the unit for you.

just my thought.

That relies a little too much on chance. A DP that costs the same, a DP with Doombolt and Wings, will move up shoot 3 times with Str4 AP3 shots, then assault with 5 attacks. DPs almost can't miss. It just seems even with Doombolt he will be killing more than with MoK. If MoK DPs could take DoomBolt I wouldn't be making this argument. But because MoK forbids psychic powers it just makes it waste being able to use all those good powers.

It'd be nice if Daemon Princes with the Mark of Khorne had options like the Codex: Chaos Daemons Daemon Prince.

Rot isn't really all that good. The big thing about MoN is that it makes the DP T6.

Well, we're comparing Princes, right? There's no point comparing to a Lash Prince because a)they seem to be tactically the best Prince, if not the best build period, and b)the OP wants different styles of models. MoN and Warptime is good, I've used these Princes to great effect in my tournaments.

MoN and Rot is less good, though 10 points less, and has the advantage of being slightly fluffier (god power and all that). Plus it makes the DP able to take on multiple types of units - the DP as is can take on termies, dreads, ICs and such, so if the opponent has none of these Rot can at least be somewhat useful against horde-styles. Lash is better, yes, but it's boring sometimes, and not good for comp. One doesn't always need to have the best mathhammer/optimized build to win, it simply helps.

Rot is one junky power.

No one has mentioned Bolt of Tzeentch yet. But I guess no one has mentioned it because it's over costed for what it does. 25 points for a single Str8 AP1 shot at 24". It just seems lame. Although I guess it's a better shot since the DP is alone. For a Sorc attached to a unit, the whole unit has to fire at what the Bolt fires at. And if it's a Aspiring Sorc in a unit of Tsons, their fire would be wasted. It can probably crack Dreads pretty reliably.

We also haven't talked about Gift of Chaos either. Again, probably because it's not that good. 30 points for a 6" snipe. But if your hitting low toughness models like Eldar or IG there are pretty good chances you roll over a 3. Can take out ICs but most ICs have high toughness and I guess it's impossible for the power to do anything on anything with a toughness higher than 5. Kind of lame.

Seems completely backwards to me to avoid comparing the Slaaneshi Prince with the Lash of Submission to other Daemon Princes because it's presumed to be the best configuration. It seems to me that making the comparison is especially useful just in case a Daemon Prince with the Lash of Submission isn't the best configuration. Better a closer look than dismissing something out of hand due to the popular wisdom, especially on a discussion forum.

The Bolt of Change is pretty good if you have the targets available, and the right back-up power. It's good combined with the Wind of Chaos or Doombolt (particularly the latter) for doing things like clearing a body-guard of heavily armoured models and taking a pot-shot at an Independent Character. And, as mentioned, lets the Daemon Prince hunt light vehicles from outside his charge range.

As for the Gift of Chaos, it always works on a roll of 6, so if the target has a T8, it'll work on a roll of 6. Also, it works at the beginning of the turn, so your Daemon Prince needs to start a turn very close to the enemy or in combat. Alright for dealing with stuff that has Eternal Warrior, or a hefty invulnerable save, but I'd just use it to create Spawn out of basic troops so that the Spawn can engage a unit and tangle it up in combat so that the Daemon Prince can engage a more immediately important target. Remember that since it's used at the start of the turn, once the Spawn is created it will then charge into combat.

Just played a mock game against myself with two different escalation league teams I might run. Here are the lists

Experimental DP list-
DP, MoT, Wind, Warptime, Wings 205
10x PMs, 2x Flamer
10x Zerkers, Champ w/ PF 250
Rhino w/ HL 50

Other list-
Sorc, MoS, LoS
10x CSM
10x CSM, Champ w/ PW, Flamer x2, IoCG
Rhino w/ HL 50
3x Oblits

Field: There is some terrain in the deployment of the DP led list as well as a small box that blocks LOS from the other side. In the center closer to the Other deployment is a circular piece of terrain. Running up the left side of the board are several more boxes that block LOS from some angles. On the right side is an impassable stack on books that doesn't block LOS to anything relevant. There is also another box in the deployment area of the Other list that isn't really used.

Seize ground: Objective in DP's terrain in deployment and objective behind impassable books on other deployment

Deployment: DP list deploys it's Rhinoed Zerkers and the DP next to the box in it's deployment attempting to run up the right side. The PMs are on the right in the terrain with their objective. Other list braces for impact hiding Oblits behind the books and the other piece of impassable in their deployment and behind the terrain that rests toward them in the center. This is where their basic CSM squad goes. The rhinoed CSMs deploy to the right of the terrain trying to punch through to the PMs. The Sorc deploys with the basic CSM squad.

First turn: Not much happened. The DP moved up behind LOS blocking box. The rhino moved out into the open and popped smoke. The PMs repositioned slightly. The Other list tried to get it's Sorc an angle on the DP but failed then ran into terrain by himself. The Basic CSM ran for their objective seeing the DP coming this way. The oblits shamble out and score 1 glance and one pen on the rhino with Lascannons but the rhino makes it's cover save. Other list's Rhino Havoc Launchers the PMs to no effect

Turn 2: DP flys up to an Oblit, hitting him with wind but failing to actually do anything even with rerolls. The rhino moves up 6" and uses it's Havoc Launcher on the Basic CSMs but scatters away to nothing. Zerkers get out of the Rhino. DP assaults Oblit and scores 5 wounds consolidating toward the Basic CSMs by 2". The Sorc tries to handle to Zerkers, lashing them back down the field and into a Plasma Cannon formation. It's Rhino moves forward and Havoc Launchers the PMs again, to no avail. Basic CSMs move toward the DP and give him 2 wounds from double tapping Bolters. DP is shocked at this as he shrugs off a lascannon. Plasma Cannon scatters off of Zerkers an incredible 12 inches!

Turn 3: Zerkers move and run toward the Sorc! DP lines up a nice warptimed wind on the Basic CSMs killing 4 out of the 8 the template hit. Hey, perfect average. Then assaults into them killing another 5. The CSM fails his morale and runs, but manages not to get run down. The Rhino moves up and Havoc Launchers the Sorc, scatters off. PMs chill. The Sorc lashes the Zerkers back again. The oblits double lascannon the DP who makes his saves. The running CSM pot shots at the DP but fails to do anything. The Rhino Havoc Launchers the PMs for the last time.

Turn 4: DP warptime winds a wound onto each oblit then assault them killing one. The Oblit puts a wound on the DP leaving him with one. The Zerkers decide not to keep going for the Sorc and run for the rhino! They use their first to explode it! The explosion kills 1 Zerker and none of the CSMs in the rhino. The Zerker Rhino Havoc Launchers at the Sorc again and fails to wound him. PMs move up to bring their flamers to bare but aren't quite close enough. Sorc Lashes Zerkers into perfect formation to be double flamered and charged. The flamers kill 3 the bolt pistols kill 1, the assault kills 4 more while they only lose 4 total. The Zerkers fail their fearless wounds the the CSMs consolidate away from the PMs. The oblit dies in combat to the DP.

Turn 5: DP flys up to, warptime winds the sorc for 1 wound then assaults him. Suprisingly the Sorc fails to wound him and the DP lays down 5 wounds on the Sorc killing him by several more than he has. PMs double flamer and double tapping the CSM squad to death.

Game ends in the DP list tabling the other list. I had the exact opposite outcome in my head. But it happened I think it speaks to the amount of power that the DP itself has and also for the validity of the MoT, Wings, Warptime, Wind build. Atleast in low point environments. I think I'm going to be taking the DP list to my first escalation league game next month.