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Hi, I'm trying to rebuild my Tau list to at least compete in tournament environments, but I really don't know what the big hard hitting deals there are to worry about other than Lash-spam and Biker Nobz from Mork style lists. So if the Dakka brain-trust could help me tweak these blue-skinned devils to a point where they could at least compete in a tourney environment, I would be extremely grateful.

HQ
1 Commander Shas'o
1 Missile Pod
1 Plasma Rifle
1 Multi-tracker
1 Hard-Wired Blacksun Filter
90

Elites 1
2 Crisis Shas'ui
2 Missile Pods
2 Plasma Rifles
2 Multi-Trackers
124

Elites 2
3 Crisis Shas'ui
3 Missile Pods
3 Plasma Rifles
3 Multi-Trackers
1 Team Leader
1 Bonding Knife
196

Elites 3
3 Crisis Shas'ui
3 Missile Pods
3 Plasma Rifles
3 Multi-Trackers
1 Team Leader
1 Bonding Knife
196

Fast Attack 1
2 Piranhas
2 Fusion Blasters
2 Seeker Missiles
2 Disruption Pods
160

Fast Attack 2
2 Piranhas
2 Fusion Blasters
2 Seeker Missiles
2 Disruption Pods
160

Troops 1
7 Fire Warriors
1 Shas'ui
1 Markerlight
1 Hard-wired Target Lock
95

Troops 2
6 Fire Warriors
1 Shas'ui
1 Markerlight
1 Hard-wired Target Lock
85

Troops 3
13 Kroot Carnivores
6 Kroot Hound
127

Troops 4
13 Kroot Carnivores
6 Kroot Hound
127

Heavy Support 1
2 Sniper Drone Teams
160

Heavy Support 2
1 Hammerhead
1 Railgun
1 Pair Burst Cannons
1 Multi-Tracker
1 Disruption Pod
165

Heavy Support 3
1 Hammerhead
1 Railgun
1 Pair Burst Cannons
1 Multi-Tracker
1 Disruption Pod
165

TOTAL 1850pts

Is this list going to be getting owned? I've tried to optimise it for 40K5, but think I might still have too many KP's. I'm also seriously considering swapping out the Sniper team for another Railhead...

[Edit: can't believe I forgot to cut and paste the troops choices in. My bad.]

I think you forgot to include your Troops; the above list has no Troops selections and totals 1416 points.

This list doesn't seem to have any troops, you just forget to put them up or is there a reason for that? You need at least 2 troop choices to fulfill your force org, no matter what.

I'd drop the sniper drone teams, I haven't seen them perform well and hammerheads, as annoying as it does get to have them spammed against you, are great for their versatility in AT and horde scenarios.

Damn, bad C & p, I do have troops. let me edit real quick

So, for further comments:

This looks like a 4th edition list.

That isn't necessarily bad, but it kind of looks like you took the MSU approach (multiple small units) which although good in 4th where everything scored and there were no KP's, is bad now, due to KP's.

I'd work on cutting the number of units (maybe some pirahnas, as I havent heard the most rave reviews of them) and making at least one of your troop choices mobile, preferably two, in case you need to capture an objective across the board.

Yeah, it was originally a 4th edition list (and if I counted right, it has a whopping 18KPs). I'm just trying to jiggery-poke it over to 5th edition. My initial thoughts are

1)Drop the Sniper teams (-4KP) for a 3rd Railhead (+1KP)
2)Combine the 2 FCW units into 1 larger unit (-1KP)
3)Drop 1 Unit of Piranhas (-2KP) and add a Fish with Smart missile, disruption pod & multi-tracker for the fcw (+1KP)

This would knock me down to 12KP's, which strikes me as too many still, but I'm unsure where else to shave KP's and still have a tough army

12 KP's is still a bit high, but its really not that bad, my new guard army is a collossal amount of KP's, 18-22, depending on how i deploy.

I like the changes you may above quite a bit though, you've got your mobile scorer, you've got lots of hard to kill skimmers, nice anti-horde and anti-armor.

I think that makes it a solid fairly balanced list, I'd start play testing it to see what pieces really work and really don't once you get on the board.

Ie, in some scenarios you may say "Agh, i just have too much of this, 3 units of suits is just getting redundant" and switch to 2, and make the changes then.

GL!

The biggest adjustment to 5th for the Tau is the new preponderance of cover saves. Low AP weaponry doesn't fare as well as more shots from higher AP weaponry, and you'll want a handful of markerlights (Pathfinders are optimal) to reduce cover saves as necessary. Sniper Drone teams are completely sub-optimal now (trust me on this; I have three teams and they are completely not worth it), and you don't need as much plasma as you used to (one squad of three suits does me just fine).

Pathfinders are a good source of markerlights, especially as you can sit them right behind another squad and not interfere with their shooting (cover doesn't affect markerlight hits). Plus you can shove a Firewarrior squad into the 'Fish (Warfish are a good buy here) for mobility.

Suits can carry flamers, which while often suicidal for the suits carrying them, can cause a great deal of damage (and potentially pull an assaulting unit out of position). Missile Pods are the other excellent weapon choice for suits.

It's not advice specific to your list, but I hope it helps.

Last time I was here, Stelek managed to argue me down that Pathfinders were real weak sauce in 40K5. Is that not the case? And are they better for marker-lights than piranhas, as it seems the cover saves have effectively nerfed Seekers.

Also has anyone ran some god mathhammer on crisis load-outs in 5th, my search-fu was sorely lacking on results in that category. I'm thinking that perhaps switching one of the MP/PR crisis teams for twin-linked Pods might be a way forward, or perhaps a deep striking twin-linked fusion suicide squad set-up if AV14 is now more common, which appears to be the case just reading around.

It seems like I might want to drop a unit of crisis entirely for more scoring FW's or at the very least re-kit them out.

How are Kroot these days? If they're extremely sub-optimal, I might drop the hounds and just use them as FCW screens.

Instead of springing for that extra Railhead, consider replacing the snipers with 2 Broadsides, and give the Team Leader a HWTL (although you'll need to squeeze out 10 points from somewhere, assuming you gave them TA's or ASS). Now you have 4 Railguns, 2 are twin-linked, and can shoot at 4 different targets! -1 KP

Drop a unit of piranhas and replace it with 6 PF's and a Devilfish. Markerlights are essential to the Tau (esp in 5ed where you can reduce cover saves). Now you can use the Devilfish for a FoF 'fish and re-rolling deep striker's scatter die. -0 KP

Like the man said, consolidate the Kroot into one large unit, and get them some cover saves! Or better yet, plant them in a forest near an objective and get that 3+ coversave (2+ if you go to ground). -1 KP

I would say drop the 2 man crisis suit team. With the points buy some shield drones for your other two 3 man teams and HQ. This will greatly increase their survivability, and you can use the extra points to buff out your FW teams or anything else that needs buffing. -1 KP

If you do these things you can reduce your kill points from 16 to 13, increase your anti-tank with two more Railguns, and increase your anti-infantry with cheap marker lights. Hope this helps!

Don't get me wrong, Stelek had some good ideas, but he said some things that made me doubt that he was as smart as he said he was. As far as I could tell, if he didn't like it, you were stupid for using it. For example, fireknife suits, which your list is full of, are the only XV8 configuration he found acceptable, which IMO ranks just about at the top of the dumbest things I ever heard him say. I finally broke down and am using one squad of them for the time being, but I've found them to be pretty ho-hum. They're ok at everything, and not really that good at anything. I take them to round out my force. I really like helios suits (plasma/fusion). They're hard to use properly, but absolutely devastating against anything except horde (where they still have a fair bit of dakka while in RF range). I also use a 2 man XV8 suicide squad. TL flamers and fusions. Always deepstrike. Kills hordes or kills tanks. With a deepstrike reroll from a pathfinder devilfish, they rarely don't make at least their points back, and often they get double. The best part about this squad is that then the enemy has to turn around to deal with them, halting their advance. That's not the type of unit many armies can afford to have in their backfield.

I didn't know that Stelek said that pathfinders are weaksauce. If I did, I would've said that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard him say. Pathfinders rock. I usually give their transports to the fire warriors (which would be buying one anyway) and then my markerlights get very cheap. My new list uses 18 pathfinders, 3 squads of six. They absolutely won me my last game. They are very powerful, but they are also overshadowed by your more powerful suits and railguns. Nobody likes to shoot at them, and if they do, who cares!? I hated them in 4e, but love them in 5e. Take some, you'll be a convert. How many times have you wanted a 12 man FW squad to rapid fire at BS5? or for your railhead to shoot at +1 BS and -3 cover save? There's no substitute. Hide them behind another unit. As another poster said, pathfinders don't care about giving cover saves to their targets, but they sure like getting one in return.

Broadsides are great in 5e. Things are hard enough to kill without the miss factor. The TL reroll REALLY helps. Try them, you'll like them. I usually go with targeting arrays or ASS, team leader with target lock, bonding, and two shield drones. Be careful about your morale though! Lose a drone and you don't want to run off the table!! Bonding does you no good if you run off the back edge when you first break!

Snipers are good, but they unfortunately don't compete well for the heavy support slots. I would be hard pressed to take less than 4 railguns (maybe 3 if you had a lot of fusion, which you do) in an 1850 list. Your list already also has SO much to AP MEQ already, that I don't think they go well in your list. Pirhanas are good in squadrons, but they get expensive. As long as they're making their points back, you can keep them.

Seeker missiles don't draw line of sight to the target, and therefore I believe they do not grant cover saves at all in 5e unless the target is in cover or has wargear, such as smoke launchers or disruption pods, that make them count as obscured or something. FWIW this made the new, but unofficial, yakface & friends FAQ. I like them a LOT better than missile pods for blowing up tanks, and simetimes just shooting MEQ squads, which is funny when they get down to just the HQ guy.

Your troops, IMO are the weakest part of your list, however I reserve judgement on your kroot because I don't use them, but think they could be good. Just remember that because they die in drove due to no armor, you have to win combat or you'll run and die. If you use them just for shooting, obviously stick to cover.

You definitely should have more fire warriors IMO. Point for point one of the best troops in the game if used properly. Double fish of fury + 4 markerlight hits = 48 S5 BS5 shots. That kills anything but massed terminators (actually, it kills 4.5 termintors rolling for 2+). They will make your enemies cry and let you hear the lamentations of their women.


That's all this old windbag has for now. Hope it was helpful.

Oh, and you have listed a Shas'O but only paid points for a Shas'El

Rmeju

4th ed list.

fire warriors have a tendency to die when looked at by anything. our troops are T 3 with a 4+ armor save... and a shooty unit that needs help to hit a barn.

in 4th, we had out crisis suits for people to focus fire on. now, most games i have played its fire warriors dead by turn 3. unless i hide them, in which case they arnt firing thier guns and markerlights...

the way i run fire warrior squads now is 6 man with a ui (only if points allow) in a WarFish (waayyyyyy overpriced, but it throws out a half way decent ammount S5 shots.

kroot are good. as long as there are no flamers on the table. and they dont take one step outside of the woods.

Bump.

The troops looks pretty weak, those fire warriors are gonna die from the first fire exchange...

If you're going to field 4 pirhanas with fusion blasters, you should give them all targeting arrys. At 5 pts a pop, those are a no brainer.

Rmeju

Well, here's the revised list. I've tried to get away from the MSU theory, though admittedly, not that successfully. I also decided from a few quick playtest games that volume/accuracy of fire seems to have taken priority over the AP of weapons in 5th edition, so I switched all my suits from FireKnife to Deathrain configuration. This also had the handy ability to give me some Warfish. Also, I'm now shooting at BS4 with everything that's not just a plain FCW. Is this going to be a better bet for taking/holding objectives?
It comes to 13 Kill Points if I understand the Annihilation rules correctly, which still strikes me as too much. I might drop a Fish from one of the FCW's and maybe a suit or tow so I can squeeze a Pathfinder unit in for the markerlights (the Mandatory Pathfinder Devilfish would still transport the FCW's rather than the Pathfinders even then.

HQ
1 Commander Shas'el
1 Twin-Linked Missile Pod
1 Plasma Rifle
1 Hard-wired Multi-tracker
93

ELITE
3 Crisis Shas'ui
3 Twin-Linked Missile Pods
3 Targeting Array
1 Team Leader
1 Bonding Knife
169

ELITE
3 Crisis Shas'ui
3 Twin-Linked Missile Pods
3 Targeting Array
1 Team Leader
1 Bonding Knife
169

ELITE
3 Crisis Shas'ui
3 Twin-Linked Missile Pods
3 Targeting Array
1 Team Leader
1 Bonding Knife
169

TROOPS
10 Fire Warriors
1 Shas'ui
1 Markerlight
1 Hard-wired Target Lock
1 Bonding Knife
1 Devilfish
1 Smart Missile System
1 Targeting Array
1 Disruption Pod
1 Multi-Tracker
250

TROOPS
10 Fire Warriors
1 Shas'ui
1 Markerlight
1 Hard-wired Target Lock
1 Bonding Knife
1 Devilfish
1 Smart Missile System
1 Targeting Array
1 Disruption Pod
1 Multi-Tracker
250

TROOPS
10 Fire Warriors
1 Shas'ui
1 Markerlight
1 Hard-wired Target Lock
1 Bonding Knife
1 Devilfish
1 Smart Missile System
1 Targeting Array
1 Disruption Pod
1 Multi-Tracker
250

HEAVY SUPPORT
1 Hammerhead
1 Railgun
1 Pair Burst Cannons
1 Multi-Tracker
1 Disruption Pod
165

HEAVY SUPPORT
1 Hammerhead
1 Railgun
1 Pair Burst Cannons
1 Multi-Tracker
1 Disruption Pod
165

HEAVY SUPPORT
1 Hammerhead
1 Railgun
1 Pair Burst Cannons
1 Multi-Tracker
1 Disruption Pod
165

TOTAL 1845 Points

Breakdown
HQ
1 Model
93 Points
5.04%

Elite
9 Models
507 points
27.48%

Troops
33 Models
750 Points
40.65%

Heavy Support:
3 Models
495 Points
26.83%

I have issues with the markerlights in the FW squads. They're heavy weapons, so they won't be moving and firing, and can't fire on the drop from a Fish. For units that plan on standing around and firing, it could work, but Fish squads don't need them. Markerlight drones might work, as they're both networked and now have Relentless IIRC. You may also wish to find points for Flechettes on your Devilfish, to help protect the guys inside.

9 MP suits I think might be a bit much. Then again, you only have a few railguns, so you'll need the firepower against mech armies. I'd still consider making a few of them TL-fusion/flamer suits to drop and take out tanks instead.

So would I be better off dropping the Markerlights & Target Locks from all my FCW Shas'uis and putting it towards Pathfinders for my Markerlights instead?

I've gone back & forth on Crisis load-outs. I don't like the fusion/flamer suits as I'd rather have the longer range. I might switch in some Fireknifes instead of Deathrain suits to up anti-tank power slightly

Definitely. I'd also consider dropping the Fish squads down to 8 or 9, if you need the points for the pathfinders. It's a loss in overall firepower, but the pathfinders will make the army as a whole play better.

chaplaingrabthar wrote:So would I be better off dropping the Markerlights & Target Locks from all my FCW Shas'uis and putting it towards Pathfinders for my Markerlights instead?

I've gone back & forth on Crisis load-outs. I don't like the fusion/flamer suits as I'd rather have the longer range. I might switch in some Fireknifes instead of Deathrain suits to up anti-tank power slightly

Definately. Pathfinders would really help. Is there in chance you could trade some on the Missle Suits and a Hammerhead for some Broadsides w/ A.S.S.? They would help.

The only thing with Broadsides is that they severely compromise my mobility and overall this force is designed to be about

A)Number of Shots
B)Range
C)Mobility

I can see sacrificing some suits for Broadsides, even if I loath to drop a Railhead

Just something I've noticed, Broadsides don't need to be mobile. They can just be VERY far away from what they're shooting at, and that's good enough.

About your suits:

1. Switching from deathrain (TL Missile) to fireknife (Missile/Plasma) will LOWER your anti-tank, not raise it.

2. Missile pods are NOT good for anti-tank to begin with. Admittedly, you have a lot of missile pods, but I think you're sacraficing a lot in you elites slots for them. When giving yourself anti-tank, you have to be thinking about what you can penetrate with the weapon you're using, because glancing absolutely doesn't cut it anymore. S7 doesn't allow for a lot of pens on AV12+, and I'll give them an acceptable, but not thrilling, against AV11. They really shine against ork trukks & DE raiders, but that's about it. AV10 & open topped.

To give you an example vs. a Rhino. If every single deathrain in your list shot at one (thats 18 TL BS4 S7 shots!!), you'd get only 2 2/3 wrecked/immobilized results against it, or only 1 1/3 if it had smoke/cover. Rhinos don't care about shaken or weapon destroyed. Stun is ok, but borderline. I think for that kind of anti-tank points investment (507 pts) you should be able to kill/stop more than 1-2 rhinos a turn, don't you? An equivalent point value of broadsides w/ TA is going to stop 3.25 AV 11 vehicles and give you a much larger range of tanks that you can kill. This even assumes points for 1 shield drone per broadside.

Anyway, just an example. I wouldn't rely overly much on missile pods, even if they are twin linked and BS 4.

Good luck!

Rmeju

Isnt tau anti-tank deepstrikeable fusion guns or railguns. Decent AT neways...

Pathfinders are point-for-shot the best way to field markerlights. I'd slash one suit squad for them, I think. And ditch the markerlights on the FW, as that makes them sitting targets.
Rmeju is right, MP are really ineffective against armor. That being said, you have 3 Hammerheads. Usually thats more than enough AT for me. How much mech do you face?

tzeentchling wrote:Markerlight drones might work, as they're both networked and now have Relentless IIRC.

Markerdrones are only relentless when attached to jump infantry squads (crisis/stealth) as their troop type copies that of the squad they are attached to. Marker Drones attached to fcws are not relentless :(

Also you have way too many missile pods in this army, you're gonna want at least some plasma for dealing with terminator armies.

Well after re-jiggering my suits load-out, adding Pathfinders and Broadsides, here's revision 4

(The 3rd FCW unit will ride in the Pathfinders' Devilfish)

HQ
1 Commander Shas'el
1 Twin-Linked Missile Pod
1 Plasma Rifle
1 Hard-wired Multi-tracker
93

ELITE
3 Crisis Shas'ui
3 Twin-Linked Missile Pods
3 Targeting Array
1 Team Leader
1 Bonding Knife
169

ELITE
3 Crisis Shas'ui
3 Missile Pods
3 Plasma Rifles
3 Multi-Tracker
1 Team Leader
1 Bonding Knife
196

ELITE
2 Crisis Shas'ui
2 Twin-Linked Fusion Blasters
2 Missile Pods
110

TROOPS
9 Fire Warriors
1 Shas'ui
1 Bonding Knife
1 Devilfish
1 Smart Missile System
1 Targeting Array
1 Disruption Pod
1 Multi-Tracker
225

TROOPS
9 Fire Warriors
1 Shas'ui
1 Bonding Knife
1 Devilfish
1 Smart Missile System
1 Targeting Array
1 Disruption Pod
1 Multi-Tracker
225

TROOPS
9 Fire Warriors
1 Shas'ui
1 Bonding Knife
105

FAST ATTACK
7 Pathfinders
1 Shas'ui
1 Bonding Knife
1 Devilfish
1 Smart Missile System
1 Targeting Array
1 Disruption Pod
1 Multi-Tracker
219

HEAVY SUPPORT
1 Hammerhead
1 Railgun
1 Pair Burst Cannons
1 Multi-Tracker
1 Disruption Pod
165

HEAVY SUPPORT
1 Hammerhead
1 Railgun
1 Pair Burst Cannons
1 Multi-Tracker
1 Disruption Pod
165

HEAVY SUPPORT
2 Broadside Shas'ui
2 Advanced Stabilisation Systems
1 Team Leader
1 Hard-wired Target Lock
170

A bump, plus an edit to correct points value

The last lit is similar to lists i've had some success with in 5e.

Some things I've noticed in playing or think may help:

Broadsides don't really need ASS. They aren't going to run away from anything, and with the TLOS cover rules I don't find them needing to move for a better shot very often. I' spend the points on a couple of gun drones for them instead as ablative wounds (lascannons are real annoying for suits)

The crisis suits could also stand to have a couple gun drones with them. Maybe I just play against too many str 8+ heavy weapons, but with JSJ really not giving you anything better than a 4+ save normally the extra targets to keep suits alive seem worth it.

Putting kroot in devilfish is fun for the whole family! If you want to put pressure on someone early on a flank (go for an objective and make them try to stop them, or just feint or just be annoying, especially going first) you can do things like infiltrate the kroot up somewhere, and then have the pathfinders' devilfish scout move to them and pick them up. Instant forward mounted troops.

I don't really get the TL fusion/Missile pod suits. Seems better to just give them targeting arrays if they're going to deep strike. If you're going after rear AV 10 with them being able to shoot the missiles and the fusion will give you a better chance of a kill (they add .666 chance of a penetrating hit, and only reduce the fusions chance of a penetrating hit by .09 percent, which is not made up for by the AP 1)

lambadomy wrote:Putting kroot in devilfish is fun for the whole family! If you want to put pressure on someone early on a flank (go for an objective and make them try to stop them, or just feint or just be annoying, especially going first) you can do things like infiltrate the kroot up somewhere, and then have the pathfinders' devilfish scout move to them and pick them up. Instant forward mounted troops.

Pathfinder devilfish can only scout move if the pathfinders are in it

Still, the idea is a good one.. even if itll be a bit slower. Kroot are v.good for thier points & are only let down by a - armor save. AV12/12/10 + disruption pods. makes up for that! But youve got no kroot & its fine without!

Get rid of one of the battlesuit squads & give every-other suit (hq, crisis, broadsides) atleast one gun/shield drone (@ 25pts) oor perhaps 2 shields. A shield drone can quite possibly take that lascannon shot for the entire game, the gun drone with the possible cover save it may get..