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Why is does everyone hate the we'll be back for the Necrons?
Can anyone give me a good reason why it should be taken off?
If you are strong enough you kill them out right unless you have the Res. Orb, or a Monolith. But really I don't think it's that big a deal since the army is done anyways if you knock them down to 25% and then they just phase out.

necrons pay for wbb in their high points cost.

I hate it because of the number of times I've had to explain how the rule works, to both necron and non necron players. Sadly, about half the people that I've played with Necrons seemed ignorant about just what a res orb did, and were thus a bit liberal in what was allowed to come back.

Sadly enough it seems that reading comprehension isn't required to play 40k anymore......

It is needlessly complex. FNP achieves almost the same thing in a far simpler way.

BYE

It's the central mechanic of the army and takes over half a page to describe.

A few years ago it was also the new thing and some people couldn't figure out how to beat it.

I've not heard complaints about WBB. It's the convoluted way it interacts with Res Orb and Monoliths.

FNP and a Res Orb that gets rid of the FNP restrictions would be so much easier.

mikhaila wrote:I hate it because of the number of times I've had to explain how the rule works, to both necron and non necron players. Sadly, about half the people that I've played with Necrons seemed ignorant about just what a res orb did, and were thus a bit liberal in what was allowed to come back.

Same here.

That and having to lay your models down. There is a way to be gamey about it that if it were FNP, then it wouldn't be possible to do.

For example, when you lay your models down, after you roll your WBB next turn, they do not have to be placed where they were when they were taken as casualties. You can place the newly revived models anywhere within the unit as long as it is within coherency. This allows some very interesting tactics to be played out, such as linking the newly revived necrons in a chain to allow you to be in assault that turn if you otherwise would not be able to, etc.

The possibilities inherent when placing them when revived is pretty huge.

With FNP, they do not have this possibility. Not that the necrons don't need a nice way to help them out, as they are weak as hell right now, but I feel that it is breaking the spirit of the rule.

I play necrons, and I never game them that way unless the opponent is being a particularly big nub end of a flesh stick.

I think the other reason is pychological. With FNP, you haven't killed a model until it fails it's FNP save, and even then your big hits will drop the sucker. WBB has restrictions that in practice are never a factor due to the orb, so if you kill a bunch of necrons (and they appear dead and you can't kill them any more), they can still reappear.

It may look like a minor distinction, but the fact that they reappear, as oppose to never leave the table, may be a bigger factor than we realize.

Why is does everyone hate the we'll be back for the Necrons?
Can anyone give me a good reason why it should be taken off?
If you are strong enough you kill them out right unless you have the Res. Orb, or a Monolith. But really I don't think it's that big a deal since the army is done anyways if you knock them down to 25% and then they just phase out.

I hate it because of the number of times I've had to explain how the rule works, to both necron and non necron players. Sadly, about half the people that I've played with Necrons seemed ignorant about just what a res orb did, and were thus a bit liberal in what was allowed to come back.

I usually dont take one unless I'm expecting a lot of s8 ordinance or power weapons.

'Be jazus that tombspyder made all his WBB roll...'

It is needlessly complex. FNP achieves almost the same thing in a far simpler way.

makes a difference in melee.... if you pass the FNP you get to hit back also you can wbb against ap1 and 2 just not power weapons and str 8+

Eg tau plasma rifle will deny you FNP but not WBB...

I've not heard complaints about WBB. It's the convoluted way it interacts with Res Orb and Monoliths.

its simple. Pull through mono = extra WBB roll.

However necrons that are worse off than a marine for 18 points no special weapons and who phase out mean that you just ice the warriors and the whole lot vanishes... its a large weakness.

No one is denying the weaknesses of Necrons. We assume that a change to WBB (making it FNP) would also come with a change to how Warriors (and Necrons as a whole) operate.

BYE

Nobody I play with has a problem with figuring out how WBB works, that hasn't been a problem. What they have difficulty with is that they're as resilient as space marines (so can absorb a fair amount of firepower) before falling down, and then, 75% of them, on average, get back up (when using a monolith to get a second WBB).

dancingcricket wrote:Nobody I play with has a problem with figuring out how WBB works, that hasn't been a problem.

That's not really the point. A core rule mechanic should never have to be 'figured out' in the first place, it should be obvious. Giving the Necrons FNP in place of WBB solves this problem as now a whole army is using a universal special rule, rather than their own rule with its own list of exceptions.

BYE

Yeah but if you change it to feel no pain then you would have to change the point value of all the Necrons and they don't get to save if you double their T. unless you have a res orb. within 6in.Plus it's not all that hard to understand.They are pretty much undead I mean really I think they need it because they aren't that strong anyways.They have good armor saves. I like it better this way even when I'm not playing Necrons and Since they don't have much going for them anyways like not much to pick from the army or special weapons. Unlike other armies that give out crazy stuff like to reroll hit and wounds. I think this is nothing to really complain about when there are those things. Right?

bladedragon03 wrote:Yeah but if you change it to feel no pain then you would have to change the point value of all the Necrons and they don't get to save if you double their T. unless you have a res orb. within 6in.

Ok, but we're assuming here that any change to the WBB rules would come in a new codex, most likely with new points costs. We're not suggesting that everyone starts using FNP right now!

In a new codex, I'd agree that FNP should be used for the whole army. Resurrection Orb removes the FNP restrictions, and a monolith could give re-rolls, or make FNP 3+ or something.

It's generally much better practise to use an existing USR than to come up with a new one that's really really similar!

So since I'm a noob at this game. Wouldn't using FNP just be like a WBB but they just don't fall down. Also I would think people would like the we'll be back better becaues that way they just fall down and it makes it easier to make a sweeping Adv.?

In my opinion, FNP is the worst thought-out special rule in the game. I say that because it does something that nothing else really does, and allows you to get a second roll to save a model from death. It's almost invariably too cheap, and you see it as a factor in many of the power units in the game.

WBB is very similar to FNP, except more complicated, and, if you have a monolith, you can actually get not just a second roll, but also a third roll to try and save a model.

Furthermore, it has a psychological aspect of undoing something that was done before. A model with FNP gets two saves, but once they're dead, they're dead. It's very disheartening to roll a ton of dice, watch 4 necrons die, and then watch three stand up again. I think this aspect of the ability might be why it is so hated.

Redbeard wrote:In my opinion, FNP is the worst thought-out special rule in the game.

Except that...

Redbeard wrote:WBB is very similar to FNP, except more complicated, and, if you have a monolith, you can actually get not just a second roll, but also a third roll to try and save a model.

Exactly so.

Well I hope the rule never gets changed because it is one of the best thing's the Necron's have going for them. They don't have much to chose from and this makes them great since they suck at CC. Unless you are fighting Tau. lol

unless your fighting tau?! BWAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA oh that made my sides hurt. They dont SUCK at CC per say. The onyl problem with them and CC is their initiative is a blistering 2! and they get one attack. They can do OK as long as they arnt dead first. I mean having SM stats is really a pretty impressive thing to brag about.

WBB is one of the things that makes necrons, necrons. Also if they had FNP, necrons would die easier and would be then useless as you watch them phase out

The thing about WBB is, in many situations it is very similar to FNP, but there are some pretty big differences. When you are trying to make sure a unit is absolutely dead, it still has a chance to live despite your best efforts with WBB. If they have FNP you know that they are dead right when you shoot them.

In nearly all common situations, WBB give the same result as FNP, but slower to resolve, with more physical bookkeeping and rules to keep track of.

Thus:

"We'll Be Back : This unit has the FNP USR".

Well, they keep trying to make 40k more like fantasy, so I can just see them getting rid of WBB for FNP...and then creating some new psychic power or ability for a necron lord to "summon" some warriors into a below-full squad just like Vampire Counts or something. All the fun of Necrons returning from the dead for annoying reasons, less of the annoying bookkeeping, and all of the adding Fantasy rules into 40k for no good reason. Win/Win!

imo WBB is just overly complex for what it attempts to do. Just look at the Necron FAQ where over half the thing deals with WBB. I'll use this example. Its very sad when you have to explain to a Necron player that he is using WBB wrong (happend to me several times - same guy each time too...). A rule should be obvious and should not take several hours of looking over a codex, FAQ and rulebook to try to figure out. FNP is just easier.

Also asume WBB goes to FNP some people may cry faul because they got rid of a special necron rule...if they got rid of phase out no necron players would cry even though its a "special" necron rule (should be gone, perhaps in the new dex it will). We'll just have to wait for a new dex to come out.

Okay, firstly:looking at the people who want WBB replaced with FNP...what about the Res Orb? Okay, so it makes it so they always get the FNP save no matter what (within range of course)

What about tomb spiders? Will they serve any FNP bonuses? a +1 modifier or something?

The main thing, the Monolith: Some people said giving another FNP save after going through, but that means keeping track of which models lost their FNP, and which can/can't due to AP1/AP2/2XToughness....which means in ADDITION to FNP, you have to keep track of, of the ones that failed, which could/couldn't redo their FNP via the monolith....and at THAT point, we are back to WBB, having to keep track of everything

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Secondly, about WBB: It's not overly complex for what it does....all you have to do is actually READ the whole section, and apply the rules....ALSO, someone had said about the "getting up not where they died, then going anywhere in the unit" thing, the codex seems to make it that the "succeeded wbb'ers" would move just enough to get into coherency, not anywhere in that unit...

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One last thing about WBB and FNP: One POSSIBLE problem with replacing WBB with FNP, is that FNP is a Universal Special Rule, that the whole army would have to abide by....so, if say in the next edition of 40K, if FNP got nerfed, the Necron army as a whole would get nerfed, and really screw us Necrons over....the same thing goes if it gets a buff...


(Oh, also, I have no problem with Phase Out, assuming I still get WBB of course....with FNP, I'm not so sure about phase out...)

The problem is that you think that Necrons should have all of their current rules replicated. I disagree.

Res Orb = 4+ Invulnerable Save (or else allows FNP on all attacks).

Tomb Spyder = re-roll failed FNP

Monolith = no FNP effects. Keep it simple as a teleporting Transport / gun platform.

OK, how does WBB work in HtH when models start moving into BtB coherency (assault after shooting, consolidation, countercharge)? Do you move the downed Necrons so models can move into place? FNP has none of these problems.

If FNP gets nerfed, so what? Rending got nerfed.


And definintely, if you get any kind of FNP/WBB save, you need Phase Out.

JohnHwangDD: Yeah, most of your ideas make sense, just that the Res Orb should always allow FNP (within range)...the rest could fit..

I still think that FNP, while making it technically easier, seems a bit too advantageous....especially in close combat, where they would get to strike back, AND in shooting, because it would be that much harder to force them to take morale tests...

OH ALSO, one thing I didn't think of, let me explain this in an example: One Heavy Destroyer getting shot at...it gets hit with say 2 boltgun wounds, fails one, succeeds the FNP save...ok, fine....THEN, it gets shot with 10 more boltguns, which all wound, it fails say 4 saves, all FNP saved somehow, but then gets shot at with 3 more bolters, and it fails it's saves and FNP....the point of this is supposed to be that you only get ONE WBB (not including monolith) per model, as with FNP, you get it for every save, meaning (even more so with the proposed tomb spider ideas) it will take just THAT much more firepower to kill them, which I think would make them a bit too strong...

EDIT: Note that I am not trying to make the Necrons weak or to get into a big argument, as I am a Necron player myself, and these changes would be very advantageous to me, but I just want to try to weigh the pros and cons of WBB->FNP


Also:

If FNP gets nerfed, so what? Rending got nerfed.

Rending isn't an army-wide rule which is a "necessity" for the Necrons;

EDIT: Actually, about rending, what was it like before compared to now?

I just want the Necron rules to be similar, but a lot simpler. So that players and opponents can quickly and easily figure out what's going on.

I'm well aware that it is technically possible to repeatedly make many, many FNP saves, just as it is possible to make many, many Armor saves. This doesn't bother me. The main thing is that, when the target finally dies, everybody knows and agrees that it can be removed from the board. This is very simple.

Balance-wise, I don't think FNP would make Necrons too strong - just look a Plague Marines. Oh, wait...

Seriously, tho, FNP Necrons (with re-rolls) will be fine and remove a lot of questions and arguments.


Oh, yeah... Rending used to auto-wound and negate saves on a 6 to-hit, rather than to-wound. So, out of every 6 attacks, you kill a model, rather than out of ever 6 hits. Rending was basically about twice as good as it is now, so the nerf hit many Nids especially hard..

ResOrb should give models (not units) within 6" a 4+ Invulnerable save, not always allow FNP. Why? Less exceptions to exceptions.

FNP already contains a list of exceptions where it can't be taken, so why add exceptions to exceptions when a 4+(I) save achieves the same result without any fuss.

Tomb Spyders can just add one. Units teleported through a Monolith get +D3 wounds added back to the unit. Really simple...