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hey all, Ive heard a lot of people mentioning dual charging to protect assault troops, so even if you wipe out Unit #1 you are still locked with #2.

How is this possible? I thought you could only assault the unit you shot at?

You have to assault the unit you shot at, but if you are in range of another unit you can assault it as well.

Page 33 - -- "can only assault the unit that it shot at...However, see the exception over the page for multiple targets." Read top of the second column on page 34

Read the assault rules on page 34 of the Rulebook. It is pretty clear about assaulting multiple uints...it is even under the heading "Assaulting Multiple Enemy Units"

Remember...'tis always better to actually look up the rules before asking

Edit:Ninja'd

Aye its very good to keep those combat troops alive longer, damn no consolidating into units 5th ed!

(although 5th ed is a great edition of 40k)

Ah, I hadn't noticed that bit LOL.

yeah makes sence to me now.

Always be as sneaky as possible in the assault phase .

you can only assault another unit , though, when it is impossible for all your models to get into base to base contact. You can't just throw one guy at the squad you wanted to shoot then assault the other.

Nenya97 wrote:you can only assault another unit , though, when it is impossible for all your models to get into base to base contact.

...which is REALLY easy to do if you use your movement phase to set yourself up correctly.

It is even easier for units with Fleet, Bikes, or Jump packs. And, it is incredibly easy for large units, such as Ork Boyz.

Nenya97 wrote:you can only assault another unit , though, when it is impossible for all your models to get into base to base contact. You can't just throw one guy at the squad you wanted to shoot then assault the other.

Absolutely false and incorrect. The assault rules clearly state how you have to models to get into assault, and those rules are:

1) First model moves into BTB with the closest enemy model in the first squad you're charging.
2) Assaulting player can choose ANY model to move next. This model must move as follows:
2A - Must move into BTB with an enemy model if possible.
2B - Must move within 2" of a model that's in BTB, if 2A isn't possible.
2C - Must move within 2" of a model that's already moved, if 2A and 2B aren't possible.
3) Repeat for all models in the assaulting squad, in whatever order the assaulting player wants.

Centurian99 wrote:Absolutely false and incorrect. The assault rules clearly state how you have to models to get into assault, and those rules are:

1) First model moves into BTB with the closest enemy model in the first squad you're charging.
2) Assaulting player can choose ANY model to move next. This model must move as follows:
2A - Must move into BTB with an enemy model if possible.
2B - Must move within 2" of a model that's in BTB, if 2A isn't possible.
2C - Must move within 2" of a model that's already moved, if 2A and 2B aren't possible.
3) Repeat for all models in the assaulting squad, in whatever order the assaulting player wants.

OK so then, if I may ask another stupid question. In the attached picture here (courtesy of VASSAL) I have a line of Ork Bikers and 2 Tau Units there.
Can I Declare the assault against the fire warriors, move Bikers 1and 2 then move 3 into B2B with the warrior on the edge in such a way that Biker 4 can then move into B2B with a Drone while remaining 2" away from Biker 3?

Apologies again for a stupid question as I'm still a little unclear about this (might just be the Patrick's day grog talking but who knows )

Biker 3 is the closest, so he has to move first into base with the closest fire warrior.

At that point, though, there's nothing to stop you from next moving biker 4 into base contact with a drone (as long as biker 4 ends in coherency with biker 3). You don't have to move bikers 1&2 before biker 4

After that you can move models in any order, as long as they end up in base with an enemy model (from either unit) and in coherency with a friendly model.

Centurian99 wrote:

Nenya97 wrote:you can only assault another unit , though, when it is impossible for all your models to get into base to base contact. You can't just throw one guy at the squad you wanted to shoot then assault the other.

Absolutely false and incorrect. The assault rules clearly state how you have to models to get into assault, and those rules are:

1) First model moves into BTB with the closest enemy model in the first squad you're charging.
2) Assaulting player can choose ANY model to move next. This model must move as follows:
2A - Must move into BTB with an enemy model if possible.
2B - Must move within 2" of a model that's in BTB, if 2A isn't possible.
2C - Must move within 2" of a model that's already moved, if 2A and 2B aren't possible.
3) Repeat for all models in the assaulting squad, in whatever order the assaulting player wants.

See thats nearly right but your missing a few key points, first off;

The first bullet point = "The most important one is that each model must end its assault move in coherency with another model in its own unit that has already moved. " Emphasise is mine.

This means you CANNOT move a back model in your assault unit towards/to engage unit B (or a distance part of your orginal assaulted enemy unit for that matter), If that assault moves places it outside of coherency. Im only making a point of this as it is the most important part (the rule itself says so) and you didnt mention Cent, after quoting somone else wrong.

Also

2A...

You forgot to mention that after youve moved your first model with its assault move (assuming it was a successful one BTB'ing it with an enemy model) you must first try to base your subsequent assaulting models with models that are not based with any of your own assaulting models. If there is an un-based model and you can assault it, you must assault it.

Please try and get it right, I mean reeally right, before you start quoting other people wrong then giving your own advice (even if they are wrong!)

okay Razerous...
Does that mean in the Biker example posted above, that he can't assault the second squad with Biker #4? Because, it looks like that one is within range of the the first squad, depending on how he moves the first biker.

If you shoot one unit, then its questionable if the shooting unit can charge two units simultaneously.

But in case there is no shooting prior to the charge, then a simultaneous charge is possible as long as the charging maintains formation.

It is not questionable at all. Pleae read pg 34 in the BRB about assaulting multiple units... particularly the 3rd paragrach under "Assaulting multiple enemy units".

It is perfectly legal to assault mutiple units, even if you shot, as spelled out in the BRB.

One good multiple assault tactic (pulled on my Tau last week) was where you set the assault up so that you have most of your attacks going against a large, softer unit (than the others, anyway). The idea is that you cause a lot of wounds against this unit, don't take many in return from the other units you're engaged with. The leadership penalty applies to all the units, and ran my Pathfinders and Broadside off the board (curse you, Snikrot!).

This obviously relies on having a good assualt squad against units that are poor (or fair at best) in close combat, but it's highly effective.

Razerous wrote:

Centurian99 wrote:

Nenya97 wrote:you can only assault another unit , though, when it is impossible for all your models to get into base to base contact. You can't just throw one guy at the squad you wanted to shoot then assault the other.

Absolutely false and incorrect. The assault rules clearly state how you have to models to get into assault, and those rules are:

1) First model moves into BTB with the closest enemy model in the first squad you're charging.
2) Assaulting player can choose ANY model to move next. This model must move as follows:
2A - Must move into BTB with an enemy model if possible.
2B - Must move within 2" of a model that's in BTB, if 2A isn't possible.
2C - Must move within 2" of a model that's already moved, if 2A and 2B aren't possible.
3) Repeat for all models in the assaulting squad, in whatever order the assaulting player wants.

See thats nearly right but your missing a few key points, first off;

The first bullet point = "The most important one is that each model must end its assault move in coherency with another model in its own unit that has already moved. " Emphasise is mine.

My rule 2C. The rules repeat this twice. I was boiling it down to make it easier to understand.

Razerous wrote:

2A...

You forgot to mention that after youve moved your first model with its assault move (assuming it was a successful one BTB'ing it with an enemy model) you must first try to base your subsequent assaulting models with models that are not based with any of your own assaulting models. If there is an un-based model and you can assault it, you must assault it.

You are right there, up to the part where you say that "If there is an unbased-model and you can assault it, you must assault it". First, you don't actually have to multi-charge if you don't want to. Second, the order in which you move models can seriously affect what models get based, and is perfectly legitimate. Regardless, I should renumber the 2A-2C to 2B-2D, and add a 2A, "Must move into BTB with an unengaged enemy model".

I may have forgotten one detail, which I thank you for pointing out, but the original poster I was responding too was absolutely wrong in saying that a unit can't assault more than one unit until the first unit is entirely based. .

Actually according to that image #4 and #5 can assault the drones. All you have to do is move #3 first into base contact with the warrior, but make sure you rotate the bike so that the back of the bike is aimed at the drone then move #4 so that it is in base with the closest drone and rotate that bike so that its back end points towards #3's back end. The bikes will now be in coherency due to their long profile. Now all rules have been completed for the multi assault.

Centurian99 wrote:
My rule 2C. The rules repeat this twice. I was boiling it down to make it easier to understand. .......


.......You are right there, up to the part where you say that "If there is an unbased-model and you can assault it, you must assault it". First, you don't actually have to multi-charge if you don't want to.

2c - come after A & B. This suggests you can do A or B while ignoring C.

2c comes first. You must maintain your '2c'. I pointed it out because your post suggested otherwise.

I dont ohnestly know why I picked you up (or tried to clarify- maybe it was a little unclear?) your 2A point. I forgot.

Besides.. read p34. It has four bullet points which you must adhere two. But ofcourse you may move the other (assaulting models) in any sequence you desire.

Sorry for double post. Wanted to do so for clairty & messy quoting code makes me :(

Right those Ork bikers vs tau troops & tau drones. This is what you could do (and why - going on guestimation on aprox distances)

Begin the assault phase:
=================
-Assault biker 3 to rightmost (and its the closest so its a must) tau trooper engaging the tau-trooper squad.

- Assault move biker 2 to the tau trooper next to the first assaulted trooper (to the Tau's left)

-Assault move biker 1 to the tau trooper next to the second assaulted trooper (again to the Tau's left)

Now... if you decided to assault move biker 4 before bikers 2 & 1, the second assaulted trooper would have probably been within its charge range. As that trooper is now based with biker 2 and the guy next to him is based with biker 1, and the back row is too far away to assault, you can;

-Assault move biker 4 to place him within coherncy next to biker 3 (to the right side, as you look at the picture)

-Assault move biker 5 to engage/base a model in the drone sqaud.

-Finally all of the tau & drone squad make a pile-in move. Both sqauds are engaged.

-Let the krumping begin.

HTH ( & Makes sense...)

Not sure, but I think there may still be a disagreement here. I'm saying that it's within the rules to move biker #3 into base contact with a fire warrior first, then immediately move biker #4 into base with a *drone* without moving bikers 1 & 2 as long as biker 4 ends movement in coherency with biker 3.

Looking at page 34, I see that the rules require models after the first to move "into base contact with an enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with an enemy model." Nowhere on page 34 do I see any restriction that all enemy models from the unit fired at/declared on must all be in base contact before a second unit can be contacted--that's a 4th edition holdover.

A drone fits the definition of "enemy model within reach that is not already in base contact with an enemy model" even though there are also fire warriors in reach that are not in base contact. So biker #4 can move into the drones immediately after biker 3 contacts the fire warriors and before bikers 1 & 2 assault.

Razerous wrote:

Centurian99 wrote:
My rule 2C. The rules repeat this twice. I was boiling it down to make it easier to understand. .......


.......You are right there, up to the part where you say that "If there is an unbased-model and you can assault it, you must assault it". First, you don't actually have to multi-charge if you don't want to.

2c - come after A & B. This suggests you can do A or B while ignoring C.

2c comes first. You must maintain your '2c'. I pointed it out because your post suggested otherwise.

I dont ohnestly know why I picked you up (or tried to clarify- maybe it was a little unclear?) your 2A point. I forgot.

Besides.. read p34. It has four bullet points which you must adhere two. But ofcourse you may move the other (assaulting models) in any sequence you desire.

Okay, I see what you're talking about. So from now on, I'll describe moving into assault as:

1: move closest model to unit being assaulted into BTB
2: pick another assaulting model - any assaulting model, assaulting player's choice
3: move 2nd model ...
3-A: ...so that its in base with a previously unbased enemy model while being in coherency with a model that's already moved
3-B: ...so that its in base with an enemy model, if 3-A isn't possible,
3-C: ...so that its within 2" of a model that's within 2" of a model in BTB with an enemy model, if 3-A and 3-B aren't possible.
3-D: ...so that its within coherency of a model that's already moved, if 3-A, 3-B, and 3-C aren't possible.
4: pick another model and repeat until all models in the assaulting unit have moved.


It's impossible for 3-B, 3-C, and 3-D to result in non-coherency. That's where I made an assumption...as I said, my bad.

None of which, of course, does anything to prevent assaulting multiple units if the first unit hasn't been 100% based, which was my original point.

Flavius Infernus wrote:Not sure, but I think there may still be a disagreement here. I'm saying that it's within the rules to move biker #3 into base contact with a fire warrior first, then immediately move biker #4 into base with a *drone* without moving bikers 1 & 2 as long as biker 4 ends movement in coherency with biker 3.

100% correct.

Hmm, so let me see if I got this right.

If I two tactical squads to be safe from being assaulted by the same unit, then I need to place them so far apart that the assaulters would have to break coherency to reach the other unit.

In praxis: 5man combat squad, hereafter called Baitsquad.
10man sternguard squad with lots of combi meltas, hereafter called Killinsquad.
Huge Assaulting Nob biker squad.

I set the Baitsquad up front, single line wide, maximum dispersal. They cover 13" of width.
Behind them, I place Killinsquad, making sure that the distance to the nearest model from the Baitsquad is more than 2"+2x(the length of a biker base wich I guess is 40mm). In that case more than 13 cm away.

If this works, the nobs will charge the baitsquad (and either kill them horribly or at least break them.) But they will not be able to get a single model in coherency and in BTB with my Killingsquad. So at the end of the assaultphase, the baitsquad is either dead or running (remember: marines may choose to fail morale checks) and the nob bikers are standing in front of my gunline.

Have I missed something?

Mellon wrote:Hmm, so let me see if I got this right.

If I two tactical squads to be safe from being assaulted by the same unit, then I need to place them so far apart that the assaulters would have to break coherency to reach the other unit.

In praxis: 5man combat squad, hereafter called Baitsquad.
10man sternguard squad with lots of combi meltas, hereafter called Killinsquad.
Huge Assaulting Nob biker squad.

I set the Baitsquad up front, single line wide, maximum dispersal. They cover 13" of width.
Behind them, I place Killinsquad, making sure that the distance to the nearest model from the Baitsquad is more than 2"+2x(the length of a biker base wich I guess is 40mm). In that case more than 13 cm away.

If this works, the nobs will charge the baitsquad (and either kill them horribly or at least break them.) But they will not be able to get a single model in coherency and in BTB with my Killingsquad. So at the end of the assaultphase, the baitsquad is either dead or running (remember: marines may choose to fail morale checks) and the nob bikers are standing in front of my gunline.

Have I missed something?

Yes.

Remember that #1 - the assaulting player chooses the order in which models move. Also, if a model can't make base contact with an enemy model, or even make it to within 2" of a model that's within base, all it has to do is maintain coherency.

So given the chance to set things up properly in the movement and/or shooting phase (for models with fleet) any two squads can be assaulted by a squad that's large enough.

Take the infamous 10-man nob bikers, mounted on bike bases - about 3"/60mm long. If the ork player has the movement to set things up, they could have one model that can charge squad A, one model that can move to within 2" of that model, and then 7 models that form a nice conga-line, and the last model assaulting unit B at the other end of the conga-line. With that 10-man bike squad, they could be charging units that are 48" apart. (30" for the 10 bike bases, and 2" between each base).

Of course, that's under ideal circumstances, and is bloody tough to set up. But 12-16" is childs play for someone who knows how to maneuver.

Well Centurian99, Razerous and others, thank you for explaining it to me. Was able to attempt it today (today being yesterday as its 0412 atm ) for the first time.

It ended up in a 70 min argument over if i can do it or not lol.

But much fun anyhow, and when we did finally get around to doing it, it worked a treat

Centurian99 wrote:

Yes.

Remember that #1 - the assaulting player chooses the order in which models move. Also, if a model can't make base contact with an enemy model, or even make it to within 2" of a model that's within base, all it has to do is maintain coherency.

So given the chance to set things up properly in the movement and/or shooting phase (for models with fleet) any two squads can be assaulted by a squad that's large enough.

Take the infamous 10-man nob bikers, mounted on bike bases - about 3"/60mm long. If the ork player has the movement to set things up, they could have one model that can charge squad A, one model that can move to within 2" of that model, and then 7 models that form a nice conga-line, and the last model assaulting unit B at the other end of the conga-line. With that 10-man bike squad, they could be charging units that are 48" apart. (30" for the 10 bike bases, and 2" between each base).

Of course, that's under ideal circumstances, and is bloody tough to set up. But 12-16" is childs play for someone who knows how to maneuver.

Gods... Another challenging part of the movement phase. Thanks for explaining!

Mellon wrote:

Centurian99 wrote:
Of course, that's under ideal circumstances, and is bloody tough to set up. But 12-16" is childs play for someone who knows how to maneuver.

Gods... Another challenging part of the movement phase. Thanks for explaining!

Remember though...movement doesn't matter in 40K. Just ask any fantasy player.

Question about some of these examples.

Do you think it would bother you or your opponent if you turned your Nob Biker and assaulted the side of his Fire Warrior just to maintain unit coherency?

I mean fun is fun, and the rules are stated a certain way but come on!? Really?