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The club that I belong to is looking to run a gaming Open Day to promote gaming. The idea is to get together the known clubs in our area and have them all host a different system. This then lets other gamers know what clubs are around and what systems are supported.

With this on my mind I stumbled in to the above idea for this post. On DakkaDakka there can be quite heated posts about GW and their systems. People moan about the rules and the cost of the models, so I was wondering if people actually look at other systems? If not why not, what is stopping you playing another system?

Having played 40k for a large chunk of my gaming life, and having stopped about 3 years ago, I find that that there are other systems out there that give me as much satisfaction as any GW ruleset.

I currently play:

Rules of Engagement
Urban War
Metropolis
Pirates
Confrontation 3
AT43

I will also be play, once I've finished the forces:

PBI
AK47
Flames of War
Infinity
Hell Dorado

I enjoy all of the above and have no problem with never playing 40k again, although I may do some 40k in 40 minute forces in the future.

Its the fear.

Fear of spending money into a game to have it disappear from the market , or lack of people to play with.

*edit , it also works both way.

The fear of already spent lots of money ( warhammer players ) and to have your gaming group move onto something else ,
making your current army obsolete , and have to go with the flow. This usually result in the warhammer players bashing the new
products with all their might.

I think that one of the major problems people run into is simply the mentality that a "system" means buying a bunch of miniatures, too. Naturally, this is something that the larger game companies themselves like to promote because it can lead to people getting "locked in". There's a reason that GW calls it "The Games Workshop Hobby" and not "The Wargaming Hobby": they don't want you to even know other companies exist.

There have been systems published that aren't brand-centric, but there is very little money in it when you can't sell the lead. Profit margins on books are extremely low, so if it can't support a miniatures line most companies (especially ones with the wherewithal to really get rolling) aren't going to take a flier on something like that.

With the superior playability, quality of models and clarity of rules of GW's products I feel no need to even look at other systems.

Magc8Ball wrote:I think that one of the major problems people run into is simply the mentality that a "system" means buying a bunch of miniatures, too. Naturally, this is something that the larger game companies themselves like to promote because it can lead to people getting "locked in". There's a reason that GW calls it "The Games Workshop Hobby" and not "The Wargaming Hobby": they don't want you to even know other companies exist.

There have been systems published that aren't brand-centric, but there is very little money in it when you can't sell the lead. Profit margins on books are extremely low, so if it can't support a miniatures line most companies (especially ones with the wherewithal to really get rolling) aren't going to take a flier on something like that.

I agree with this.

GW has managed to create a state of mind in young wargamers that you have to buy and play a 'system' and their's is the only system.

In reality, you can use any miniatures with any suitable set of rules. There are several 28mm SF skirmish games. You just need to decide what stats are to be used for each type of model.

Historicals are even more open.

avantgarde wrote:With the superior playability, quality of models and clarity of rules of GW's products I feel no need to even look at other systems.

Pffffft!! Models are nice I'll give you that.

avantgarde wrote:With the superior playability, quality of models and clarity of rules of GW's products I feel no need to even look at other systems.

Just out of interest have you ever tried another system? It's not a question to try and make you change, more to add to my original post. If you've not tried another system, I'd love to know if it is something as simple as being trapped by GW's marketing or a genuine freedom of will. Let me just say that I feel 40K works and as a rule system I don't have a problem with it

Getting others to play.

Though now we have a brand spanky new club in my town, thanks to Fitzeh, this might be easier than before.

All I'd need to do is to get 3 or so other players to try it as well, and I have a decent chance at embarking on a new system.

I maintain that network effect is a big cause: 40k is the 'default' game in part because a player can reliably walk into a store and find an opponent.

A lot of companies can meet or exceed GW on one or more of writing quality, miniatures quality, and value, but few can reliably say there'll be an opponent, even if it's "that guy" willing to play if you go to a store on a random Saturday.

GW is the finest purveyor, in every sense of the word, of wargaming products since Falcon brought Anaris to Eldanesh.

i just use the same models, I don't play in a GW store so I don't have any issues... Although I dont know of any AT-43 players. I haven't tried many others.

solid models, decent rules, huge player base, and able to pick up a game most anywhere in the world. I don't have a huge amount of time to game so don't want to waste it and I like GW stuff. nothing I have seen comes close to GW overall.

avantgarde wrote:GW is the finest purveyor, in every sense of the word, of wargaming products since Falcon brought Anaris to Eldanesh.

Are you....serious? No. This is a joke, right? This has to be a joke.

Oh, I get it now! HAHAHAHAHA! Good one!

I used to try new systems all the time. I still have boxes of old books and miniatures in my closet to prove it. What I like about Warhammer and 40k is that I can stop playing for a while and I know that the game won't be dead when I decide to start playing again. Also, the miniatures will still be worth something if I decide that I need to sell them.

artyboy wrote:I used to try new systems all the time. I still have boxes of old books and miniatures in my closet to prove it. What I like about Warhammer and 40k is that I can stop playing for a while and I know that the game won't be dead when I decide to start playing again. Also, the miniatures will still be worth something if I decide that I need to sell them.

Hey, you should be able to sell those old, dead games for their shipping cost!

But yeah, so far, there are a sum total of 3 companies games that seem to be doing OK:

GW (40k & WotR)
PP (WM/H)
BF (FoW)

I wouldn't even bother spending on other games unless I had the specific intent and expectation of providing all rules and minis for them, like a board game.

Just a few of my personal reasons for not trying many new games:

1. The depth and breadth of GW's universe makes for a wealth of possibilities. Sure, some of it's derivative, but having 30-plus years to draw inspiration from is kinda nice when building an army.
2. Accessibility of players and opponents.
3. Overall, their model range is both accessible and of high-quality. Some companies are making up ground here, but they're not there yet.
4. I'm getting too old and crotchety to keep learning new things.
5. I'm broke! The models I already own can be used for years to come, even as editions and codices change. Some things fall by the wayside, and old stuff becomes new again, but an Ork Boy will still always be an Ork Boy.

NOthing. I play Hordes, Dark Age, and a few other games..

Time. I just need to wait until the UNA army box comes out for AT-43, and I'll be able to fill my sci-fi tabletop urges. 'Cause 40k really doesn't do it, seeing as it....sucks.

Nothing stops me. Of course, I hardly ever play this system, so that might be a reason

LunaHound wrote:Its the fear.

Fear of spending money into a game to have it disappear from the market , or lack of people to play with.

*edit , it also works both way.

The fear of already spent lots of money ( warhammer players ) and to have your gaming group move onto something else ,
making your current army obsolete , and have to go with the flow. This usually result in the warhammer players bashing the new
products with all their might.

QFT... i think... what does QFT mean anyway? The Dakka definition says Quoted for truth...

well whatever it means... i concur with the LunaHound

Warmachine/Hordes: Cards, metal miniatures
Confrontation: Cards, crappy quality plastic miniatures
AT-43: More fething cards, nobody at the only gaming store within range plays it.
Why, oh why does every miniature game nowadays have to come with cards?

QFT means you just quoted me because you agreed with what i said xD

warpcrafter wrote:Warmachine/Hordes: Cards, metal miniatures
Confrontation: Cards, crappy quality plastic miniatures
AT-43: More fething cards, nobody at the only gaming store within range plays it.
Why, oh why does every miniature game nowadays have to come with cards?

Well no one said you have to use the cards lol. Its made for saving you time to flip page by page for the unit's stats.
You can just lay it at the side and view it anytime you want instantly.

Not mention they can constantly feel free to add and expand NEW units without having to wait for next edition codex.

Its very smart idea actually.

I've been trying to get my gaming group into battletech for years (I have a thing for mechs) I've forked out for about 4 decent size Stars/Lances + rules + mapsets and weve played it only a few times.

The issue for most people though is buying new miniatures and having people to play with, GW is so accessible many people see no need to look at other companies

I generally had not tried other systems as I had simply never seen models that I liked or models in person. It was only when I saw a battlefront flames of war display that I bought some models and a book on a whim and got into it from there. I'm not really into the fantasy genre beyond blood bowl, and sci fi takes a big investment of time to get up to scratch with the background. This basically leaves historicals as an easy alternative, and for me WW2 and Napoleonics are the big two interesting time periods (though Roman and other BCE stuff are also quite cool).

I play many different games. Some of them have been "dead" (i.e. have had no official support for years). Just last week I played Flintloque for the first time - a game that has been around for at least 15 or so years.

All that is needed to try out a new game is a copy of the rules (there are loads for free off t'interwebs if you're broke, and anyone but GW charges smaller amounts for rule books - £15 - £20 is more typical than the £30 - £40 GW tend to produce theirs for, and many go for pennies on eBay), 2 small armies (not necessarily painted) and 1 mate ready to give it a go with you. Something like Uncharted Seas you can get all that for oooh, say £50 or so plus postage - about the same as AoBR! Something like DBA could set you back only £30 - £40 for 2 useable armies and the rules. Hardly a major financial risk - about the cost of a Land Raider or two boxes of Goldswords!

As long as you have somewhere to play and one sympathetic mate, you're sorted. There really is no rational excuse for not branching out, unless you are truly content with where you are within the GW fold.

I don't understand this "fear" of a system stopping being supported. It just looks pretty mad to me. Who the frag needs "support" if they are a compus mentis adult with a ha'ppeneth of imagination? Sure it's nice, but its not necessary! And these day's with t'internet there is so much quality fan made stuff its an embarassment of riches (just found a great site dealing with Man O' War this afternoon!)

Sure, it can be handy to walk into a store ina strange town, plonk down your 1500 point army and have at it with a complete stranger. I can see the appeal in that. But why does that real benefit of GW mean you will be afraid to try any other game as well? It's not as if when you take up another game the GW police wll suddenly pounce on you for the indiscretion is it?!

I haven't tried anything else as I enjoy 40k too much and don't have the time to play anything else even if I did have the inclination.

Brother Bartius wrote:I haven't tried anything else as I enjoy 40k too much and don't have the time to play anything else even if I did have the inclination.

My thoughts exactly. I like 40k, and only have so much time between work and family to even do that.

LunaHound wrote:QFT means you just quoted me because you agreed with what i said xD

warpcrafter wrote:Warmachine/Hordes: Cards, metal miniatures
Confrontation: Cards, crappy quality plastic miniatures
AT-43: More fething cards, nobody at the only gaming store within range plays it.
Why, oh why does every miniature game nowadays have to come with cards?

Well no one said you have to use the cards lol. Its made for saving you time to flip page by page for the unit's stats.
You can just lay it at the side and view it anytime you want instantly.

Not mention they can constantly feel free to add and expand NEW units without having to wait for next edition codex.

Its very smart idea actually.

But you're supposed to mark on the cards (For Warmachine/Hordes) for your record-keeping of damage on Warcasters and Warjacks. I mention this to people and their answer (With a smirk!!!) is "Just put it in a card-sleeve and use a grease-pencil!" That's not the point. I have no problem with using an army list book. Perhaps when they put out actual army list books for Warmachine there will be more impetus to try an alternate method. (Paper and pencil?)

I like to play non-GW rulesets like Star Grunt II and FUDGE using GW miniatures. You get the benefits of a reasonably solid and well-maintained rule system, great grimdark fluff, and miniatures that are instantly recognizable.

It's fun and easy to translate army stats and develop new rules to take advantage of an alternate system and display the fluff of an army.

When playing a game of Star Grunt against my son (Eldar vs. Necrons and Marines vs. Necrons) at the FLGS, the locals had to do a double take since we didn't have codeci (just notecards), weren't using templates or dice blocks, and were using terms like Support Fire and Suppression.

There was definite interest, albeit hesitant at first, but the chance to have a list match it's fluff closer than the rules written for that army was very appealing to the players I talked with.

...There are army books for Warmachine. And when you have an army where every model has more special rules then half a 40k codex, theres a good point to having it writen down somewhere easy to referance. I'd like to see what you'd do if half the models in your 40k army had 25 wounds, and loss of particular ones caused different effects. (FYI, I have played Hords with paper & Pencil. the cards are easier, eather grese pen or photocopied)