Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

We had a great event at Showcase, thanks again to Mikhalia for dealing with some amazing drama and keeping his cool.

we had 48 players making this a very tough Semi. Now that I hear how few were at most of the other semis I wish I had taken the drive to one of the other events, but I was in position to take third going into the final round despite the competion and the scenarios not favoring troop heavy IG so I cant complain. I lost my final game to a very good opponent who took advantage of my several overly arrogant mistakes. It doesnt matter how many times you have beaten a list, if you play poorly you will still loose.

So the winners were

Vulkan Marines ( Vulkan, Null Zone Libby, 3 redeemers, 3 assault termi squads with 3 tacs in rinos and 3 attack bikes)

Pedro Marines ( Lots of Sternguard, Scouts and Vindicators )

Mech Lash Chaos ( Standard Sorceror Lash with Oblits, Defiler, Melta Chosen, and tons of melta plague marines in Rhinos)

Im still too dissapointed in myself to write up the batreps, but wanted to add to the list of the victors.

Congratulations again to all the winners for the well deserved accolades.

I came in fourth at the regionals in Alabama read this http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/251730.page

I am mad do you think I am overreacting.

Welcome to 'ard boyz is all I gotta say.. Finals are 10x worse than semis

I am interested in that Pedro list - do you happen to remember any more what it was like?

give us details on drama some of us love it if not pm me it.

yeah I'd love a rundown of the "drama" helps me know what to look out for.

Nice to hear of a positive experience. 48 players is very competetive so Kudos to those who moved on from that location. Some stores only had like 8-10 players for semi's.

I just want to say that Mike Clark has no business being a judge. He has got a little persons coplex and thinks he is god. His ard boyz days are over, there were alot of complaints about his language and his rulings. I am not going in to details about everything that happen but i will give a short run down of some of his rulings.


1. If space marines come on the board via drop pods that the flaps of the drop pod count as difficult terrain.
2. A battlewagon can ram a vehicle with a deff rolla. (so they get the ram hit plus d6 strength 10 hits)
3. When fast moving open topped transport vehicles with troops inside move more then 6 inches the troops can not fire from the vechile.
4. This one is the kicker. If a unit is locked in combat with another unit and is charged by a second unit then it may only strike the unit it was in combat with at the beging of the turn. Even if some of the unit cannot strike the unit it was in contact with at the begginng of the turn that part of the unit may not strike.

The point is that he thinks he can make up what ever rules he choses when ever he choses. Also i challage him to say any of these were not his rulings as there where many witnesses to these rulings. The whole experences was an eye opener for me. I do here by retire from gaming one hundred percent i am selling everything i own because i almost killed someone in that place and it is not worth my anger or energy. Mike has got a big mouth on dakka but in person he is a scared little man. Hey Mike you dont have to be scared.

Nice to see some pennsylvania players(like myself), I couldnt find any for a while , but now they seem like they're popping up everywhere. Sorry that there seems to be a bit of a dramastorm going on though. Do you guys have a website/blog/whatever for new players to sign up/etc ?

I live in gettysburg so its a bit of a hike to media, but there are no more stores around here that play 40k sadly.

Mike Clark has repeatedly demonstrated, over the course of several years, that he’s one of the best store owners and event organizers on the East coast, if not in the entire United States.

It’s no coincidence that his store had the largest reported attendance of any Ard Boyz event so far.

tonytheman wrote:The whole experences was an eye opener for me. I do here by retire from gaming one hundred percent i am selling everything i own because i almost killed someone in that place and it is not worth my anger or energy.

Not wanting to applaud anyone leaving the game... i cant help but feel this is your best option.

Zed/Manny can anyone help out Halsfield query above?

tonytheman wrote:I just want to say that Mike Clark has no business being a judge. He has got a little persons coplex and thinks he is god. His ard boyz days are over, there were alot of complaints about his language and his rulings. I am not going in to details about everything that happen but i will give a short run down of some of his rulings.

...

The point is that he thinks he can make up what ever rules he choses when ever he choses. Also i challage him to say any of these were not his rulings as there where many witnesses to these rulings. The whole experences was an eye opener for me. I do here by retire from gaming one hundred percent i am selling everything i own because i almost killed someone in that place and it is not worth my anger or energy. Mike has got a big mouth on dakka but in person he is a scared little man. Hey Mike you dont have to be scared.

Not that I REALLY want to be in the middle of this, but two of these are right, one is right under the right circumstances, and the last one is gotten wrong more than right by players and judges all over.

tonytheman wrote:1. If space marines come on the board via drop pods that the flaps of the drop pod count as difficult terrain.

Taken out of context, this does sound a little odd, but there is a case where this could happen (if the drop pod was wrecked at some point after landing). Not saying this was the case, but it is possible.

tonytheman wrote:2. A battlewagon can ram a vehicle with a deff rolla. (so they get the ram hit plus d6 strength 10 hits)

This wasn't Mr. Clark's ruling. This was ruled upon by G.W. for the purposes of 'Ard Boyz. See this post.

tonytheman wrote:3. When fast moving open topped transport vehicles with troops inside move more then 6 inches the troops can not fire from the vechile.

This one is absolutely correct. I think it's a silly rule, but it's in the core rulebook, and lots of players get this wrong. Being open topped removes the need for a firing point, allows you to measure range from any point on the vehicle for the passengers' shooting, and allows you to assault after disembarking even if the vehicle has moved. A fast vehicle has the ability to move flat out, and the ability to fire more of its' own weaponry after having moved, but does not affect the passengers.

tonytheman wrote:4. This one is the kicker. If a unit is locked in combat with another unit and is charged by a second unit then it may only strike the unit it was in combat with at the beging of the turn. Even if some of the unit cannot strike the unit it was in contact with at the begginng of the turn that part of the unit may not strike.

Okay, this one is one of the most confusing rules in 5th edition, simply because of how it is worded. This ruling is not correct, however it does give me a good opportunity to quote something here for you.

Ard Boyz rules packet (second paragraph) wrote:All participants be advised: all judges rulings are final.

That being said, I'll reiterate that Mike is not the only judge to ever get this last one wrong. In fact, I've approached judges before tournaments and asked questions related to multiple assaults, and been told to "please avoid them."

Now then, I wasn't there and can't speak for what else may or may not have happened. If there really was a list of legitimate complaints about Mr. Clark's language or further rulings that were inconsistent with the rules, that would be something to take up with Games Workshop. However, I have yet to hear one complaint from anyone else who attended this location, and in fact there are several positive testimonies to be found in this thread. Until I hear otherwise, I'm going to have a hard time believing that anything was done improperly.

Halsfield wrote:Nice to see some pennsylvania players(like myself), I couldnt find any for a while , but now they seem like they're popping up everywhere. Sorry that there seems to be a bit of a dramastorm going on though. Do you guys have a website/blog/whatever for new players to sign up/etc ?

I live in gettysburg so its a bit of a hike to media, but there are no more stores around here that play 40k sadly.

Drive 20 miles up the road to Harrisburg and play at the Adventurer's Guild--a great FLGS with a solid player base.

Showcase Comics website:
http://mysite.verizon.net/mnjclark/showcasecomics/

Adv Guild:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Harrisburg-PA/The-Adventurers-Guild/66804985421

tonytheman wrote:I just want to say that Mike Clark has no business being a judge. He has got a little persons coplex and thinks he is god. His ard boyz days are over, there were alot of complaints about his language and his rulings. I am not going in to details about everything that happen but i will give a short run down of some of his rulings.


1. If space marines come on the board via drop pods that the flaps of the drop pod count as difficult terrain.
2. A battlewagon can ram a vehicle with a deff rolla. (so they get the ram hit plus d6 strength 10 hits)
3. When fast moving open topped transport vehicles with troops inside move more then 6 inches the troops can not fire from the vechile.
4. This one is the kicker. If a unit is locked in combat with another unit and is charged by a second unit then it may only strike the unit it was in combat with at the beging of the turn. Even if some of the unit cannot strike the unit it was in contact with at the begginng of the turn that part of the unit may not strike.

The point is that he thinks he can make up what ever rules he choses when ever he choses. Also i challage him to say any of these were not his rulings as there where many witnesses to these rulings. The whole experences was an eye opener for me. I do here by retire from gaming one hundred percent i am selling everything i own because i almost killed someone in that place and it is not worth my anger or energy. Mike has got a big mouth on dakka but in person he is a scared little man. Hey Mike you dont have to be scared.

This poster has been banned. Be advised.

Also, although it should be clear to all, be advised that threatening private messages are grounds for immediate banning. We take any such messages seriously.

What? No big hammer picture for the Ban? How dissapointing.

Frazzled wrote:Zed/Manny can anyone help out Halsfield query above?

srry frazzled im from white plains NY not PA

Manny however seems to have taken care of it.

tonytheman wrote:
1. If space marines come on the board via drop pods that the flaps of the drop pod count as difficult terrain.

To clarify, there have been several questions posed to me about drop pods, the flaps, cover saves, etc. I went over how we played them at this store, since there is a lack of clarification from GW. What I said, and what Tony obviously only heard part of was:

- Ony use the hull of the drop pod for measuring for dissembarking, and assaulting/shooting at the droppod, and not the flaps.
- Flaps don't count as part of the vehicle, the SM inside can deploy on top of them, or next to them. If on top, they do not count as difficult terrain for running down them.
-SM's (or or other models deployed between the flaps, may use the flaps for cover, if the flaps block some of the LOS between the shooter and his target.
-If you are between the flaps, and choose to move up-across-down them, then it counts as difficult terrain.

We've been playing it this way as the flaps do block los to part of the models using them for cover, and to make it fair, if you're getting a cover save from them, you also have to scramble a bit to go over them.

No one had a problem with it, or questioned it during the tournament. But I wouldn't mind hearing feedback on it.

It's a nice house rule in my opinion. Kinda complicated but it works.

I am not familiar with dakka i was just introduced to it by a friend not to long ago. I was in media and I have to say that i agree with tony on alot of the things he is saying and what he was saying when he was in media. Mike did on more than one occasion use profaine language in front of me when adressing questions. I also do not believe the situation with tony was handled properly. Mike seemeed to be the instigator and I do not believe he would have acted that way if it where a different setting. I wittnessed him make three bad calls in favor of the other guy that tony was playing and it was not until the thrid when tony lost his temper. I in no way shape or form agree with Tonys behavior but i do understand his frustration, although it should have been hadled totaly different by Tony. After the situation reached a boling point Mike was still instigating i do not believe that was right on his part. Here is what happen in the three situations that frustrated Tony. I witnessed all three and was listening the whole time, to aviod being dragged in i am not going to state my name or where i was.

First bad ruling in my opinon was as follows. Tony deployed a battle wagon behing a buliding with nobz and Gazghull in it. Space marine player deploys nothing. First turn space marine palyer moves everthing on, he starts to shoot search lights at the battle wagon. First one misses, second one misses, both clearly could see the battle wagon as they were on the side were there was no buliding. Then comes to the controversy space marine player shoots a search light from a dreadnought at the battle wagon, The dreadnought is right in front of the building but slightly on a hill, he hits with the search light. Tony immediatly contests and states the dread not cant see the battle wagon. The space marine player says it can see. They go back and forth for a minute, tony continues to say roll a d6 which i think was completly fair. Space marine player says no, judge gets called they get a laser pointer at check line of sight the laser hit the very tip of the battle wagon maybe one centimeter to play with Tonys contention is the laser pointer is more than that one centimeter away from where the search light is there for the searchlight cant see it, all along he is saying lets just roll a d6 guys. Hopefully i have done a good job decribing the situation it was clearly a close call and would and should have been d6 in anyother game in another place in the world. Judge does not make is own ruling, instead looks at the space marine player ands says do you want to d6 it? Space marine answers with the obvious answer and says no. Mike then says, well it can see and that is my ruling he could have very easily said roll a d6 and end it guys. Tony did not argue or talk back or say anything thing rude. He accepted the ruling and moved on. In my opinon and this is only my opinon the judge pitted the two players against eachother buy asking for the space marine players opinon, when he should have just maid a ruling. Second this is also my opinon It was indeed a very close call that should have been decied on a dice roll.

Second ruling had to do with multiple unit combat. Space marine player charges a unit of kammandos who are locked in combat with two or three vanguard veterans with a unit of scouts. Tony says he is striking the scouts with the remander of his attacks that can not be allocated to the vanguard veterans. Space marine player says that Tony can not attack the scouts and must allocate his attacks to the veterans, Tony says what about the kammandos that cant strike the veterens. space marine player states they may not attack. Judge is called, Tony presents the judge with the faq from gamesworkshop and states his side. Judge rules that all attacks must be made against the vanguard veterens and only the vanguard veterens and the other models may not attack. This is when i started to notice tonys frustration. I also was frustarted with the ruling as i know it to be wrong. This is alos when tony in my opinon started to act inappropriate and get loud, which if he didnt was totaly justified in being upset.

Third and finaly ruling before the explosion and expulsion of Tony. Before the start of the fifth turn Tony states there is not enough time to continue and that the game sound end. As it sits at this moment the game is by all means a draw. Space marine player says no and starts to take his turn. At the end of his turn Time is called, so it is top of turn five and because and only because of that turn the space marine player now has a unit with one space marine very close to the objective, within three or four inches. Tony says time was called i told you there would not be enough time to finish and it does not matter weather or not the space marine is at the objective or not he should not have taken that turn and therefore the game is over as it was at the end of turn four and is a draw. What happens next is what I was amazed by the judge comes over of course and says take another thgirty minutes and finish your turn Tony. Tony knowing he could not win in thirty minutes says no the games are two and a half hours not three hours I told him there was not enough time and the space maine player went aheaed with his turn understing that if time was called before the turn was over that the game would end in a draw. The space marine player now seeing at the end of his turn he is now possible holding an objective says that his turn counts and for tony to finish his turn. This is where part of the controversy is tony says to the space marine player your not within three inches of the objective anyway so it doest matter. The distance is mesured and it is found that the space marine is in fact within three inches of the objective. Tony then states that he cheated and moved the objetive or the space marine after they had started to argue. Judge comes over tells tony that his turn doesnt matter because he cant get anything on an objetive and rules that the space marine is within three inches of the objective. Tony proceeds to blow up cuss and threaten the judge and the space marine player and is ultimatly thrown out. I do not believe that he should have acted in this way. I do not condone that type of behavior under any sircumstance. I believe he should have found a more approprate way to deal with the situation, before he did that I had already made my mined up that i was going to call gamesworkshop and talk to them about the way i felt about the whole thing but affter that i didnt know so i thought i would let you guys know the truth about what happen.

Hmm i wonder who could of posted this a brand new account with one post....

I guess you are implying that i am Tony, thats pretty funny you must not have read any of his past posts. Anyway i just simply wanted to tell the pepole on dakka what really happened. I belong to 40k online and bols. I never joined dakka because i never saw a reason. There have been alot of posts on this subject and I tought it fair to give my opinon. If you or anyone else believes that i am Tony i am sure dakka has ways to figure out weather or not that accusation is true. I think that i stated I do not condone violence and I believe Tony has guite a different opinon about that. I also said that his actions were uncalled for and crazy.

SatonHimSelf wrote: First bad ruling in my opinon was as follows. Tony deployed a battle wagon behing a buliding with nobz and Gazghull in it. Space marine player deploys nothing. First turn space marine palyer moves everthing on, he starts to shoot search lights at the battle wagon. First one misses, second one misses, both clearly could see the battle wagon as they were on the side were there was no buliding. Then comes to the controversy space marine player shoots a search light from a dreadnought at the battle wagon, The dreadnought is right in front of the building but slightly on a hill, he hits with the search light. Tony immediatly contests and states the dread not cant see the battle wagon. The space marine player says it can see. They go back and forth for a minute, tony continues to say roll a d6 which i think was completly fair. Space marine player says no, judge gets called they get a laser pointer at check line of sight the laser hit the very tip of the battle wagon maybe one centimeter to play with Tonys contention is the laser pointer is more than that one centimeter away from where the search light is there for the searchlight cant see it, all along he is saying lets just roll a d6 guys. Hopefully i have done a good job decribing the situation it was clearly a close call and would and should have been d6 in anyother game in another place in the world. Judge does not make is own ruling, instead looks at the space marine player ands says do you want to d6 it? Space marine answers with the obvious answer and says no. Mike then says, well it can see and that is my ruling he could have very easily said roll a d6 and end it guys. Tony did not argue or talk back or say anything thing rude. He accepted the ruling and moved on. In my opinon and this is only my opinon the judge pitted the two players against eachother buy asking for the space marine players opinon, when he should have just maid a ruling. Second this is also my opinon It was indeed a very close call that should have been decied on a dice roll.

Sounds like the proper ruling. "Roll a d6 for it" is an inappropriate answer in a tournament, where a neutral third party (the judge) is available to rule. There is no reason to allow the other player to force you into a 50-50 shot at his getting his way, when it is possible to demonstrate that he is wrong (i.e., laser pointer).

Second ruling had to do with multiple unit combat. Space marine player charges a unit of kammandos who are locked in combat with two or three vanguard veterans with a unit of scouts. Tony says he is striking the scouts with the remander of his attacks that can not be allocated to the vanguard veterans. Space marine player says that Tony can not attack the scouts and must allocate his attacks to the veterans, Tony says what about the kammandos that cant strike the veterens. space marine player states they may not attack. Judge is called, Tony presents the judge with the faq from gamesworkshop and states his side. Judge rules that all attacks must be made against the vanguard veterens and only the vanguard veterens and the other models may not attack. This is when i started to notice tonys frustration. I also was frustarted with the ruling as i know it to be wrong. This is alos when tony in my opinon started to act inappropriate and get loud, which if he didnt was totaly justified in being upset.

Probably the wrong ruling. However, bad rulings happen, and they do not justify later bad behavior.

Third and finaly ruling before the explosion and expulsion of Tony. Before the start of the fifth turn Tony states there is not enough time to continue and that the game sound end. As it sits at this moment the game is by all means a draw. Space marine player says no and starts to take his turn. At the end of his turn Time is called, so it is top of turn five and because and only because of that turn the space marine player now has a unit with one space marine very close to the objective, within three or four inches. Tony says time was called i told you there would not be enough time to finish and it does not matter weather or not the space marine is at the objective or not he should not have taken that turn and therefore the game is over as it was at the end of turn four and is a draw. What happens next is what I was amazed by the judge comes over of course and says take another thgirty minutes and finish your turn Tony. Tony knowing he could not win in thirty minutes says no the games are two and a half hours not three hours I told him there was not enough time and the space maine player went aheaed with his turn understing that if time was called before the turn was over that the game would end in a draw. The space marine player now seeing at the end of his turn he is now possible holding an objective says that his turn counts and for tony to finish his turn. This is where part of the controversy is tony says to the space marine player your not within three inches of the objective anyway so it doest matter. The distance is mesured and it is found that the space marine is in fact within three inches of the objective. Tony then states that he cheated and moved the objetive or the space marine after they had started to argue. Judge comes over tells tony that his turn doesnt matter because he cant get anything on an objetive and rules that the space marine is within three inches of the objective. Tony proceeds to blow up cuss and threaten the judge and the space marine player and is ultimatly thrown out. I do not believe that he should have acted in this way. I do not condone that type of behavior under any sircumstance. I believe he should have found a more approprate way to deal with the situation, before he did that I had already made my mined up that i was going to call gamesworkshop and talk to them about the way i felt about the whole thing but affter that i didnt know so i thought i would let you guys know the truth about what happen.

So...Tony was slow-playing, and got pissed that the judge refused to let that be a factor? That's how I read the above. 2.5 hours. Dawn of War deployment. No excuse not to get at least 5 turns in.

And the bad spelling is about the same.....

You can't force someone to d6 for it, asked for a ruling, the judge made the call. Any part of the hull counts.

You also have to go with what a judge says. His word is law where you are. He will mess up. Just a fact of the matter. If you don't like the way someone runs it, then you need to find another place to go. I know it sucks, but that is just part of life.

All in all it boils down to "It's just a game".

As I have said before, I was standing two feet away, literally over Tony's opponents shoulder, and that is not what happened. Tony did not ask to end the game until AFTER the marine player had already finished his turn. Once he realized he could loose, he demanded that the marine player take his turn back. Mike tried to give tony time for his turn to even things out, and Tony Refused, then began his tirade of threats and I had to go get security.

Nuff said on that, Tony is gone for the hobby and gone from Dakka, enough energy wasted on that.

On to more important matters:

The Pedro list: I did not get a chance to play him so I can only say from watching his second and third games that I recall he was running:

Pedro
Null Zone Libby
3x Full Sternguard Squads with Fist Sarge ( did not see the specials ) in rhinos
At Least Two Scout Squads
I think the Heavies were two Preds and a Vindicator but I coud be the other way around.

Sorry, wish i had paid more attention to his army composition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and I second the recommendation of Adventurers Guild, They have a great store and a wonderful community up there. I have played in several of their tournaments and always enjoyed them.

A very friendly bunch of players.

Tony asked four or five times for the game to end when he heard time called at the end of turn four. So you must not have been standing there the whole time as you stated. If you are who i think you are you game did not end early enough for you to have been standing there for the whole thing, maybe part of it. The point is anyone over there in media anyone who knows Mikhalia (mike) is going to side against Tony which is fine with me. I said before I am not siding with Tony but I was there for the whole thing not just part of it. He got upset and was justified in being upset but not in the way he acted. If you dont think that then ok but you may not know the whole story. I have also found a few post about the guy he played from other members of dakka saying that, the space marine player often twists rules to his favor and can be hard to play with.

What happens next is what I was amazed by the judge comes over of course and says take another thgirty minutes and finish your turn Tony.

Incorrect. Tony and his opponent were given no more time for the game than anyone else in the tournament. Tony was complaining about not having any time left. I pointed out to him that what I had just said was "Gentlemen, you are at the end of the normal 2 1/2 hour time limit. Please finish your turns, but do not start any new ones. You have some time to finish this turn." Tony thought the game was out of time, I said no, you have 10-15 minutes to play, you should get moving and finish the turn.

It's a necessary evil in tournaments, that we have to call time at some point, but you want players to finish their turns.

I am a little curious to know how you feel about the other things that i brought up if that would be okay with you Mikhalia?

SatonHimSelf wrote:I am a little curious to know how you feel about the other things that i brought up if that would be okay with you Mikhalia?

Sure. Feel free to give me a call if you want, I'm getting a little tired of the drama, and am pretty much done discussing things in public, especially with annonymous posters. Most of your knowledge of Tony's game is from discussing it with Tony, not from sitting and watching the game, as you had your own going on.

It's really easy for you and Tony to come on forums and throw around accusations. Tony's last words to me were "You'll never run another 'Ardboyz again." Which he is trying to do by calling GW, starting a fuss on various boards, and get other people to post now that he is banned.

It's not working. There were a lot of people at that tournament that don't feel the way you and Tony do. I'm happy to see how many other people who were there have also posted their feelings about it, and have written into GW.

Bottom Line: I lose money renting a room to host a regional tournament, with no fee. I lose time setting it up, running it, and picking up afterwards. I'm certainly not doing it for a profit, or because I enjoy the extra work. And there's no enjoyment dealing with a player like Tony.
Tony didn't like a ruling? It happens. So does losing games. Neither allows a player to throw out threats at another. Tony got lots of warnings to calm down. He ignored them, got mad, decided to quit the tournament, threaten a player, and earn himself an escort out of the mall.