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During the Hardboy semifinals I encountered an interesting situation (by mistake) where I fired a Prism Cannon at a Valkyrie gunship on a board edge. The Valkyrie's base was entirely on the table but one of it's wings was off the board edge (we found out by mistake actually, no one had noticed during play). The template deviated from center mass onto the off board portion of the wing.

I called it a miss in the event and kept on playing.

...here is a diagram of the situation for clarity*:



*The heavy black line is the board edge.

YMDC: was this actually a miss or not?

I think there are a few other, possibly more specific concerns as well:

(1) Is the gunship illegally placed or not?
(2) Does a (centered blast marker) hit on the wings of a Valkyrie or Vendetta count as a 'hull' hit or not?

Welcome to the realm of "Not covered in the rules".

1) gunship is leaving the table this is not allowed. Every one Knows the board edge is the end of the world.

2)a)I play that the wing is part of the hull since the guns are on it and if it wasn't the hull it could in theory hide behind a tree and shoot round without being hit in return.
b)If you have allowed 1) to happen then its only fair to also count this as a hit.

@Tri

Afterward I thought your assessment was correct.

Recalling it again, I also thought that any shot that deviates off board is a miss, per the blast rules, which is why I played it that way at the event.

Happens to us all. Good for you for trying to play fair.

Personally I wish GW explained what the hull was on each vehicle.

If gunships wings don't count then nether do my FirePrisms wings ... yep thats right the two bits at the sides are its wings they've nothing to do with the hull.

I know, when I started thinking that I got really confused, that's why I made this thread.

All told, I suspect that the answers are:

(1) The gunship is illegally placed
(2) Wing hits count as hits (because of weapon locations)

But Im not sure on the RAW, as I haven't researched it.

I seem to have a distinct memory of a vehicle rule that said something like: must hit hull, not barrels, banner poles, arials or WINGS.

Isn't that in the vehicle section...?

I agree with Tri.

Whatever the hull is can't be off the table, so either the Valk was placed illegally, or you've missed the hull.

Augustus wrote:
I seem to have a distinct memory of a vehicle rule that said something like: must hit hull, not barrels, banner poles, arials or WINGS.

actually doesn't list wings ... but allot of idiots, i mean people, have interpreted wings as not being part of the hull.

There's no way in hell a Valkyrie could continue to fly without its wings.

Without the tail, maybe.

The only time the model can be partly off the table is when moving on from reserves. (opens can of worms)

The centre of the blast was off the table so it should be a miss.

Firstly, all you people who believe that the a Valkyrie can NOT fly without its wings should really look at said wings: those wings can't bring any lift! So really, a Valkyrie's wings don't help it fly anyhow! And people who want to tlak about those little engines at the ends, they couldn't keep it aloft either! Valkyrie is just a funny little bird that shouldn't be able to fly as it appears. As for being part of the hull or not? Well, little hints and rumors from GW make it sound like they won't be part of the hull but will be similar to parts of the weapons. Most people will just have to accept that the Valkyrie won't be such a painfully easy target as they want it to be.

As for your situation Augustus, without the rulebook in front of me, I remember that skimmers use their base for placement, but there very well might be a part in there about the hull/no part being off the table edge as well. But I would say its position is 'okay' and considering it had been agreed to being legal during the movement phase (you can't call rules after the fact), it is legal position in the enemy's shooting phase. Since the rules clearly state that rounds falling off the table edge, via the center of their blast marker, do not count, then the round does not count even though it is over the model.

Skinnattittar wrote:Firstly, all you people who believe that the a Valkyrie can NOT fly without its wings should really look at said wings: those wings can't bring any lift! So really, a Valkyrie's wings don't help it fly anyhow! And people who want to tlak about those little engines at the ends, they couldn't keep it aloft either! Valkyrie is just a funny little bird that shouldn't be able to fly as it appears. As for being part of the hull or not? Well, little hints and rumors from GW make it sound like they won't be part of the hull but will be similar to parts of the weapons. Most people will just have to accept that the Valkyrie won't be such a painfully easy target as they want it to be.

As for your situation Augustus, without the rulebook in front of me, I remember that skimmers use their base for placement, but there very well might be a part in there about the hull/no part being off the table edge as well. But I would say its position is 'okay' and considering it had been agreed to being legal during the movement phase (you can't call rules after the fact), it is legal position in the enemy's shooting phase. Since the rules clearly state that rounds falling off the table edge, via the center of their blast marker, do not count, then the round does not count even though it is over the model.

Skimmer base are ignored except for assaulting.

Wings and the tail are not gun barrels, antennas, decorative banner poles or other miscellaneous rubbish (that has been add for decorative effect) so must indeed be part of the hull.

Who knows if it can fly without the wing .. who cares its part of the model and you're not meant to leave parts off.

Skinnattittar wrote:Firstly, all you people who believe that the a Valkyrie can NOT fly without its wings should really look at said wings: those wings can't bring any lift! So really, a Valkyrie's wings don't help it fly anyhow! And people who want to tlak about those little engines at the ends, they couldn't keep it aloft either! Valkyrie is just a funny little bird that shouldn't be able to fly as it appears.

Really? How much does a Valkyrie weigh? What material is it made from? How much lift is generated by the turbines on the end of the wings?

Valkyries are imaginary. The engines on the tips of the wings allow it to fly because that's the property they were given by the people who made them up.

As for being part of the hull or not? Well, little hints and rumors from GW make it sound like they won't be part of the hull but will be similar to parts of the weapons. Most people will just have to accept that the Valkyrie won't be such a painfully easy target as they want it to be.

What's an example of one of these hints and rumors?

The only other vehicles I know of that have wings in basic 40k are the Eldar skimmers, which universally count the wings as being part of the hull.

Then if the wings are part of the hull, can models be underneath the wings? People have been playing you assault the base with the valk. If the wings are the hull do I just assualt till I'm (in a face down view) touching a wing?

this is counted as a miss, as stated in the rules on page 30 "if the shot scatters so that the hole in the centre of the marker is beyond the table's edge, the shot is a complete miss and is discarded"

Yes, of course you cna be beneath the wings. Not an issue.

If the wings are part of the hull, you must stay 1" away from them. The Valkyrie is tall enough to allow most models to stand under them anyways, though.

I think this can be answered without really getting into the RAW or the RAI.

If the model can be partially off table and be considered in play then certainly you should play the blast marker the same way.

This doesn't answer the question of whether the model is illegally placed or whether the blast template and scatter partially off edge and stil count, but certainly in a game where you allow the wing to hang off then you should have given the same latitude to the player whose blast marker scattered.

I know I count the hull as the actual hull of the valkyrie. Wings are wings just like they are on other miniatures where they don't count for LOS.

For us (myself and my guard friend) we count that hull as stopping where the weapons are mounted under the wing, therefore if both players have lascannons, they both have 48", not the valk has 48" and the other doesn't. We also use the base for placement and assault, but if a wing is hanging off the board, you can still hit it.

Basically if it hit you, you can hit it.

How does anyone get the idea that the wing is not part of the valk's hull? The rules were made the way they are so as not to intimidate people fom modelling cool banners or spiky bits onto their vehicles, not to try to take advantage of poor wording to say part of their model does not count toward LOS.

Because a hull is a hull and a wing isn't part of a hull.

jbalthis wrote:Because a hull is a hull and a wing isn't part of a hull.

How are wings not part of the hull?

jbalthis wrote:I know I count the hull as the actual hull of the valkyrie. Wings are wings just like they are on other miniatures where they don't count for LOS.

LOL

If they are added, sure.

Otherwise the hull is indeed the hull - you know where weapons are attached and relevant game parts are glued on.
(note: weapons are attached to the wings as well as other relevant parts of the model)

I guess becuase I work with aircrafts it makes more sense to me. But a hull isn't a wing.

I'm just trying to establish what a hull actually is on a valkyrie. And once that's established, then the rest of the rules should be applied.

A hull is "the body of a ship"
Please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuselage A fuselage is the body of an aircraft. Also having done some research on aircrafts, hull refers to the body of an aircraft.

It was pretty funny when I asked about 10 marines this question. We sat around for about 15 minutes debating and googling what a hull on an aircraft was. One guy even went so far as to grab a hull of an aircraft and show me. LOL.

OK, so by that logic even if the entire scenario was on the table, it was still a miss?

Augustus, sorry for steering away from your original question. No part of a model can be over the board edge unless I'm mistaken, according to the rules.

EDIT: woops didn't read your last post carefully. I'll look it up really quick and get back to you. I guess I should have a disclaimer that I'm still new to the game.

EDIT2: According to my logic of the hull it would be considered a miss. pg. 60

It is not a modern aircraft. It is a IG skimmer.

Have a marine show you the "Hull" on a IG skimmer.

Real life =/= game rules.

Either way, Valks need discussion before the game until FAQ/Errata.

Hull question aside, RAW says it's a miss, even though the rules are sketchy in one area, you can't ignore the clearly written rules elsewhere:

BGB p.30 wrote:If the shot scatters so that the hole in the centre of the marker is beyond the table’s edge, the shot is a complete miss and is discarded.

How would I play it? When the mistake was noticed, I would allow you to declare which units were going to fire at it (to determine which of your guns would be hitting the side armour) then pivot the model so it is as much on the table as possible, then let you roll your hits and scatter, using the AV worked out above, but the new position of the model. It's not a house rule, but seems a fair on-the-spot compromise.

kirsanth wrote:It is not a modern aircraft. It is a IG skimmer.

Have a marine show you the "Hull" on a IG skimmer.

Real life =/= game rules.

Either way, Valks need discussion before the game until FAQ/Errata.

That's the best advice I've read so far. It prevents most arguments.