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Some suggestions:

WWB needs simplification. As suggested elsewhere, models with the rule 'Necrons' should get +1T and FNP.

Lord on destroyer body allows to take Destroyers as troops and Heavy Destroyers as FA.

A full unit of Flayed Ones can be taken as troops.

Pariahs need an improvement as they are hardly played: Tomb Spiders could act as Apothecaries for Pariahs.

- I agree, WWB should be changed to +1T and FNP. If they kept WWB while making them +1T and FNP... that would just be grossly OP.
- Add upgrades that can be taken by warriors (i.e. different weapons, CC upgrades, things of that sort)
- Improve the usefulness of Tomb Spyders. Also make their initiative higher.
- Make pariahs more useful. If phase out is in the new codex, make them Necrons as well.
- More heavy weapon choices for destroyers to allow them various options
- A few new units, the Cron codex is pretty cut and dry... needs more variety
- Improve the Nightbringer to make him suck less
- Change Gauss weapons. Make it so that on a roll of "6" to wound the shots become AP3 or something. Don't make em auto glance vehicles, this is almost useless.

Those are some suggestions, tho obviously it'd be hard to implement some of em.

Like the changes suggested.

- Periahs should get FNP without any point increase.

- Make destroyers weapon S5 AP4 Assault 3

- Make heavy destroyers weapon S9 AP1 Assault 2
Maybe give them a 2+ Armore save (slight point increase maybe)

- Increase Wraith save to 2+ (inv) and give it 4 attacks


I'm strongly against weapon upgrades for warriors (or any other unit choice). The legion aspect of the army is best supported if you have an indistinguishable mass of robots slowly marching towards your lines.

Greets
Schepp himself

Replace WBB with FNP.

Add the AP 2 on a 6 to wound bonus to Gauss. Disruption fields grant Gauss to melee attacks, not available on Scarabs.

Wraiths drop in points a bit, get max unit size of at least 6, and offensive grenades.
Spyders drop in points a bit, get max unit size of at least 5 per choice. Or get the option to take 1-3 per troops choice as a 'free' slot.
Flayed ones drop in points a bit, change Visage rule to something constant but weaker. -1I? -1 WS? -1 to hit Flayed Ones? LD penalties are pretty useless in 5th, so can't change it to that.
Change Pariahs somehow, but I don't know how. Points drop? 2+? invun save?

Warscythes give +1 A. Staff of Light is 24 inch range, twin linked.

Points increase on Monolith.

Rework Veil. No scatter, or maybe move Lord + 1 unit in 6 inches up to 24 inches ignoring terrain and all models during move and leaving combat if they were in combat. DS mishaps are too dangerous.
Rez Orb includes phylactery effect, hits Lord + one unit with a model within 6 inches + units with all models within 6 inches.
Chronometron lets all Necrons in the combat automatically escape the sweeping advance on their loss, reroll their d6 for when they win.

Stubborn or points drop on Warriors and Immortals. Far too vulnerable to being run down by even small assault units.

EDIT: Spelling is fun.

I see a lot of things people want, but not a lot of things they would be willing to give up in exchange. Just trying not to make this a wishlist thread.

I would:

Replace WBB with FNP (anything more and you better start thinking about points increases across the board)
Remove Phase Out
Give Gauss weapons rending (like WBB, anything more and points cost should go up)
Flayed Ones as troops
Pariahs need a points drop
'Lith needs to lose Living Metal or increase points, as it is now it can do so much more than simelar costing vehicles
Make Necrons fearless (or at least a reroll)

I'm really against giving troops more "weapon options" per se, as Necrons are supposed to be about blank, identical robot. It's not really an "option army" imo. Maybe use a tiered lord system with the lowest level performing the role of squad leader?
Just some thoughts.

But Necrons need improvements. They're weak, pretty much everybody admits that. All the points spent on the MEQ statline and WBB and Gauss weapons are all worthless the moment 5 Assault Marines charge you.

Necrons don't need to 'give up' anything. They need moderate improvements in vehicle killing, mobility, assault specialists, basic shooting, and melee survivability.

Necrons need the current autoglance on a 6 rule. Warrior and Immortal units have to be a threat to vehicles, or else Heavy Ds need to gib vehicles pretty reliably. It's common for armies to field 4 or more units with good tank killing ability, usually in the form of 2 or more meltaguns in a unit. 2 meltaguns is usually better than an entire unit of Heavy Ds, and they are carried by units that can do other stuff. Rending on S4 is not a threat to anything over AV11

Troop mobility is a critical part of 5th. Necrons have no transports, only the Veil and the slow as hell Monolith. The Veil needs to be safer, and Flayed Ones as troops would probably close out this concern.

Necron assault units suck across the board. They'll only win absurd matchups like Banshees against Spyders. They current array of Flayed Ones (basic, anti-horde), Wraith (fast, anti-elite), Spyers (slow, counterassault) and Scarabs (fast, gunline hunters) is decently differentiated. Now they just have to be capable of winning fights, which most of them can't. Disruption fields are an option now, just a really bad one.

That 2 meltagun unit of tac marines will outshoot equal points in Warriors while keeping much better anti-tank capability. Much less a lasplas or ML/plas tac squad.

And finally, something has to be done about Warriors, Immortals, and Destroyers in sweeping advances. Maybe Stubborn, maybe FNP would make most fights come out close to even.

I'm hesitant to change the Monolith. Right now, it has to be out in front and away from the rest of the army in order for the portal to be useful and so it can employ the particle whip. If you take away living metal, it will be toast. Necrons don't have the numbers to cover something that size, on top of being unable to support it like IG do their tanks. It does need either a limit or a points increase, because it is pretty close to invulnerable.

Ok, here we go *deep breath*
gauss auto ap3 or 2 on a 6.
the monolith needs to move 12", not 6, increase points (275ish, no more than 290)
increase initiative on all units, make them better at cc- fnp or stubborn would work. higher init on spider, scarabs, flayed ones need to be tougher and count as troops. hv destroyers need to be more reliable and cost less. parias NEED wbb, or thier a waste of points. +1 toughness on everything. more resistance against template weapons. Period. Wraiths need 4 attacks in cc, staff of light 24" range, rez orb should get phylactery built in as standard, VoD needs to be more reliable. no scatter please!

NO!!!

THIS IS THE TRUE CRON FIX!!!!

Change Guass weapons to rending!

Replace WBB with FNP!

Remove phaseout! (really there is no justifiable reason for this "flavor" rule to exist)

Allow 1 model in every necron warrior unit to take a warscythe!

Change the "Necron" rule to-
Models with this rule may Deep Strike! Recieve Feel No Pain! and are Stubborn!

Models that will have the Necron! rule-
Necron Lords
Immortals
necron Warriors
Destroyers & heavy destroyers
Flayed ones
Wraiths

Give flayed ones Rending

Change the Tomb spider so that he adds another model to a pre-existing swarm unit. Also increase his WS&BS to 3.

Remove Living metal from the monilith
add, Beacon!
beacon!- any friendly necron unit wishing to Deep Strike within 6" of this model does not scatter.

The C'tan remain the same except receive the Eternal Warrior! USR, and move as jump infantry.

Ok, here we go *deep breath*
gauss auto ap3 or 2 on a 6.
the monolith needs to move 12", not 6, increase points (275ish, no more than 290)
increase initiative on all units, make them better at cc- fnp or stubborn would work. higher init on spider, scarabs, flayed ones need to be tougher and count as troops. hv destroyers need to be more reliable and cost less. parias NEED wbb, or thier a waste of points. +1 toughness on everything. more resistance against template weapons. Period. Wraiths need 4 attacks in cc, staff of light 24" range, rez orb should get phylactery built in as standard, VoD needs to be more reliable. no scatter please!

And the goal would be what? To make necrons the most over-powered race in the game?

Giving Gauss weapons rending is probaly the easiest fix. This means one out of every six wounds will effectively be AP1 and gives them a chance to pen all AVs, which is probably more useful than the old auto-glance.

Increased movement on the monolith would be ok and I agree the points need to go up. Living metal also needs to go if you give it increased movement, but can be replaced with something like locator beacons to make deepstrike near the monolith more effective.

Necrons do not need an initiative increase. Close combat is the one weakness of the Necron army and it needs to remain that way. Necrons are the premier shooting army and their ranged ability is awesome across the board. Now, if you were to reduce the effectiveness of that shooting (say, BS 3) in exchange for more close combat ability I'd be willing to go along but I think most necron players are willing keep the current set up.

NECRONS ABSOLUTELY DO NOT NEED +1 TOUGHNESS ON ANYTHING You already have an incredibly resilient army. T4, 3+ SV, and WBB on a basic trooper is almost impossible to beat in terms of resiliency and you want to increase it. T5 core troops and T6 elites is insane. Orcs and Eldar would need 6s to wound in close combat. Berserkers would need 4s and they are supposed to excel at close combat.

I agree with replacing the current incarnation of WBB with FNP and giving Necrons stubborn. It should be a rare event when the robot warriors get run down by anything and it helps with the whole implaccable advance idea of Legion without being the over the top idea of fear less.

Veil of Darkness is good enough as it is. You have the ability to move a squad any where on the board at will, including pulling them out of hand to hand. Scatter is a very necessary balance. Couple VoD with a revised monolith that limits nearby deep strike scatter and you still have plenty of options without being over powered.

PanzerLeader wrote:

Ok, here we go *deep breath*
gauss auto ap3 or 2 on a 6.
the monolith needs to move 12", not 6, increase points (275ish, no more than 290)
increase initiative on all units, make them better at cc- fnp or stubborn would work. higher init on spider, scarabs, flayed ones need to be tougher and count as troops. hv destroyers need to be more reliable and cost less. parias NEED wbb, or thier a waste of points. +1 toughness on everything. more resistance against template weapons. Period. Wraiths need 4 attacks in cc, staff of light 24" range, rez orb should get phylactery built in as standard, VoD needs to be more reliable. no scatter please!

And the goal would be what? To make necrons the most over-powered race in the game?

Giving Gauss weapons rending is probaly the easiest fix. This means one out of every six wounds will effectively be AP1 and gives them a chance to pen all AVs, which is probably more useful than the old auto-glance.

Increased movement on the monolith would be ok and I agree the points need to go up. Living metal also needs to go if you give it increased movement, but can be replaced with something like locator beacons to make deepstrike near the monolith more effective.

Necrons do not need an initiative increase. Close combat is the one weakness of the Necron army and it needs to remain that way. Necrons are the premier shooting army and their ranged ability is awesome across the board. Now, if you were to reduce the effectiveness of that shooting (say, BS 3) in exchange for more close combat ability I'd be willing to go along but I think most necron players are willing keep the current set up.

NECRONS ABSOLUTELY DO NOT NEED +1 TOUGHNESS ON ANYTHING You already have an incredibly resilient army. T4, 3+ SV, and WBB on a basic trooper is almost impossible to beat in terms of resiliency and you want to increase it. T5 core troops and T6 elites is insane. Orcs and Eldar would need 6s to wound in close combat. Berserkers would need 4s and they are supposed to excel at close combat.

I agree with replacing the current incarnation of WBB with FNP and giving Necrons stubborn. It should be a rare event when the robot warriors get run down by anything and it helps with the whole implaccable advance idea of Legion without being the over the top idea of fear less.

Veil of Darkness is good enough as it is. You have the ability to move a squad any where on the board at will, including pulling them out of hand to hand. Scatter is a very necessary balance. Couple VoD with a revised monolith that limits nearby deep strike scatter and you still have plenty of options without being over powered.

QFT.

k, fair enough, no +1toughness, but cc SPECIFIC units (pariahs, flayed ones, spyders etc) could be better- a higher initiative, for example, on the flayed ones, would be ok-ish. pariahs do need wbb though. the monolith needs a point increase, living metal could be downgraded, or be made an upgrade. i like the beacon idea, but unless you deep-strike it, it wont be very effective. remember it does have the portal though... llook, the 'lith needs work. some extra resiliance against templates would also be much appreciated.

jp400 wrote:
Giving Gauss weapons rending is probaly the easiest fix. This means one out of every six wounds will effectively be AP1 and gives them a chance to pen all AVs, which is probably more useful than the old auto-glance.

This I disagree with. Improvments to Necron's firepower are needed, and rending is the easiest fix, but going to rending effects on vehicles is a step down in a lot of ways. Warriors will be unable to hurt AV13 (1 glance in 27 shots) or 14 (immune), and extremely unreliable against AV12 (.74 pen/.74 glance in 20 shots). Immortals become impotent against AV 14 (1 glance in 27 shots) and extremely unreliable against AV 13 (.47 pen/.74 glance in 20 shots). While it is a buff against AV 10 and rhinos, it would render Necrons 100% dependent on Destroyers to kill tanks. 9 Gauss Cannon shots to the rending roll, which would range from 13-15. Destroyers would be really good tank killers, just like Assault Cannons, but that would be at the cost of most of your infantry AT capability.

jp400 wrote:
Increased movement on the monolith would be ok and I agree the points need to go up. Living metal also needs to go if you give it increased movement, but can be replaced with something like locator beacons to make deepstrike near the monolith more effective.

A Monolith without Living Metal is a dead Monolith.

jp400 wrote:
Necrons do not need an initiative increase. Close combat is the one weakness of the Necron army and it needs to remain that way. Necrons are the premier shooting army and their ranged ability is awesome across the board. Now, if you were to reduce the effectiveness of that shooting (say, BS 3) in exchange for more close combat ability I'd be willing to go along but I think most necron players are willing keep the current set up.

Necrons haven't been the primer anything since 3rd. Something has to be done about melee weakness, where Tac squads charge Necron Warriors instead of shooting them and are highly likely to win. And when they do win, they threaten to run down the entire unit.

jp400 wrote:
NECRONS ABSOLUTELY DO NOT NEED +1 TOUGHNESS ON ANYTHING You already have an incredibly resilient army. T4, 3+ SV, and WBB on a basic trooper is almost impossible to beat in terms of resiliency and you want to increase it. T5 core troops and T6 elites is insane. Orcs and Eldar would need 6s to wound in close combat. Berserkers would need 4s and they are supposed to excel at close combat.

Special and heavy weapons do the vast majority of the damage anyway, and most of them will still wound on 2s. Bezerkers needing 4s to wound Warriors doesn't mean they somehow lose the combat. However, I do think a T5 army is silly.

jp400 wrote:
I agree with replacing the current incarnation of WBB with FNP and giving Necrons stubborn. It should be a rare event when the robot warriors get run down by anything and it helps with the whole implaccable advance idea of Legion without being the over the top idea of fear less.

I'm hesitant to give an entire army Stubborn. Leadership is neutered enough in 40k as it is, but I don't really see another option other than +1T. FNP alone might mean that Warriors tie with Tacs and only lose to Assault Marines by 1 or 2 points.

jp400 wrote:
Veil of Darkness is good enough as it is. You have the ability to move a squad any where on the board at will, including pulling them out of hand to hand. Scatter is a very necessary balance. Couple VoD with a revised monolith that limits nearby deep strike scatter and you still have plenty of options without being over powered.

Strongly disagree. Mobility is critical, and the Veil is far far too risky. You are placing an expensive squad in close formation, and can scatter to
A: DS mishap, with a 2/3 chance of losing the squad. Your enemy getting to position your unit means they are dead, dead, dead with Necrons. You'll either get pie plated or charged.
B: Scatter near the enemy, get charged
C: Work right

The Veil is a substantial portion of the Necron's troop mobility. It needs to work, or something needs to be added.

This I disagree with. Improvments to Necron's firepower are needed, and rending is the easiest fix, but going to rending effects on vehicles is a step down in a lot of ways. Warriors will be unable to hurt AV13 (1 glance in 27 shots) or 14 (immune), and extremely unreliable against AV12 (.74 pen/.74 glance in 20 shots). Immortals become impotent against AV 14 (1 glance in 27 shots) and extremely unreliable against AV 13 (.47 pen/.74 glance in 20 shots). While it is a buff against AV 10 and rhinos, it would render Necrons 100% dependent on Destroyers to kill tanks. 9 Gauss Cannon shots to the rending roll, which would range from 13-15. Destroyers would be really good tank killers, just like Assault Cannons, but that would be at the cost of most of your infantry AT capability

Reread the rending rules. With rending, Warriors will be able to convert half of their previous glances against AV 13 into penetrating hits and 1/3 of their glancing hits against AV 14 into penetrating hits. Immortals have slightly better odds because of their ST5 weapons. Unless I'm crossing my editions suddenly all rending bonuses against armor are now D3. If that is the case, maybe the answer is still rending but with Gauss weapons adding a D6 rather than a D3.

A Monolith without Living Metal is a dead Monolith.

It is also no more vulnerable than any other AV14 vehicle in the similiar points range without it. Adding speed without reducing firepower or mobility would unbalance the monolith.

Necrons haven't been the primer anything since 3rd. Something has to be done about melee weakness, where Tac squads charge Necron Warriors instead of shooting them and are highly likely to win. And when they do win, they threaten to run down the entire unit.

How is that a bad thing? Necrons outshoot a Marine Tac squad on average and have much better survivability. They need to be weak in some facet of the game. As liquidjoshi suggested, buff their actual counter assault units (Flayed Ones, Pariahs) but leave the core alone. Giving Necrons Stubborn with their LD10 would also go a long way to prevening run downs.

Strongly disagree. Mobility is critical, and the Veil is far far too risky. You are placing an expensive squad in close formation, and can scatter to
A: DS mishap, with a 2/3 chance of losing the squad. Your enemy getting to position your unit means they are dead, dead, dead with Necrons. You'll either get pie plated or charged.
B: Scatter near the enemy, get charged
C: Work right

The Veil is a substantial portion of the Necron's troop mobility. It needs to work, or something needs to be added.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. Veil is a huge power as it is. The risks inherent in it are balanced by the rewards.

Rending is 6 + d3. 11 to 13 on S4 (4+6+d3), 12 to 14 on S5.

Most AV 14 vehicles are either surrounded by infantry (IG, Orks), sitting in terrain with some long range support nearby (normal LRs), or rushing to unload big melee units by popping smoke (LR transports). The Monolith can do none of the above, and is incredibly difficult to obscure to boot. Necrons don't have enough models to defend something that big and do other things, the Monolith is too short ranged to sit back, and has neither the speed, smoke, or payload to rush.\

Without living metal it will die to a valkyrie meltavet squad, or a drop pod melta squad, or a MM landspeeder, or fire dragons, or bright lances, or infiltrating meltaguns. The only army that can't deal with it will still be Orks.

Veil is worse and more expensive than buying a drop pod.

The Grog wrote:Rending is 6 + d3. 11 to 13 on S4 (4+6+d3), 12 to 14 on S5.

Most AV 14 vehicles are either surrounded by infantry (IG, Orks), sitting in terrain with some long range support nearby (normal LRs), or rushing to unload big melee units by popping smoke (LR transports). The Monolith can do none of the above, and is incredibly difficult to obscure to boot. Necrons don't have enough models to defend something that big and do other things, the Monolith is too short ranged to sit back, and has neither the speed, smoke, or payload to rush.\

Without living metal it will die to a valkyrie meltavet squad, or a drop pod melta squad, or a MM landspeeder, or fire dragons, or bright lances, or infiltrating meltaguns. The only army that can't deal with it will still be Orks.

Veil is worse and more expensive than buying a drop pod.

Right now a Monolith costs the equivalent of a Land Raider. It can DS, teleport units through it, has more firepower, and is generally much more of a pain than a LR. Especially if your going to give it more movement, It better have a decent points increase or lose Living Metal. To me, its overpowered as is now.

And if you think veil sucks right now, you honestly haven't see a truly imaginative Necron player. Its brutal when used correctly/creatively

I'd keep Living Metal but make it just a 4+ invulnerable save, that way the monolith can drift forward and ignore shots other, lesser vehicles would need cover to survive.

This also has the added bonus of not rendering specific anti tank weapons (I'm thinking XXXXlances and melta) fairly useless against it and providing equal protection against all threats.

To mimic the old "miniatures teleporting to other units" effect, having every Necron unit count as a Locator Beacon for Deep Strike might be nice.

Personally as to the basic Necron Warrior statline, I would like increased toughness and a decreased save (with FnP), something like this:

WS3
BS4
S3
T5 (to let them keep access to FnP vs most shooting, as well as cementing them as the toughest basic troops)
W1
I2 (or even 1 I like the image of them as slow and solid)
A1
Ld10 (with Stubborn when within say 12-24 inches of a Lord)
Sv 4+

Special Rules:
Slow and Purposeful (But make one of the Lord abilities upgrade them to just Relentless when in his area of effect)
Feel No Pain (call it WBB in the fluff if you want)

Gauss Gun: 24" S4 AP4 Rapid Fire, Rending
Squad size: 5-25 (really just to have a different number here then other armies, I think twenty or thirty is fine, but I like variation).

An Option to purchase the unit a Veil of Darkness rather then being reliant on a character escorting them around. This could be coupled with the Monolith being an extra large beacon and removing the gate ability from the Monolith itself (thus allowing it to not get to spendy).

Other units would be based of this baseline, with a strong emphasis on Lords (and perhaps some other like Tomb Spyders) providing a unit buffer aura to mimic the undead>necromancer spell effects.


Jack

is that with a points increase too?

What a Monolith doesn't do is move 12" a turn carrying a 15 man assault unit or an Assault Terminator unit with smoke. It's firepower isn't that amazing either, as it carries a weak Demolisher Cannon. Total output is lower than a Russ or Russ Demolisher, and possibly lower than a LC Crusader. It is a better vehicle killer than any of the above though.

If you weaken it's defenses, you have to remember that Necrons will have problems supporting it properly or defending it from mechanized or flying melta weapons.

So compilation of easily fixable changes-

Change Guass weapons to rending!

Replace WBB with FNP!

Remove phaseout! (really there is no justifiable reason for this "flavor" rule to exist)

Change the "Necron" rule to-
Models with this rule may Deep Strike! Recieve Feel No Pain! and are Stubborn!

Models that will have the Necron! rule-
Necron Lords
Immortals
necron Warriors
Destroyers & heavy destroyers
Flayed ones
Wraiths

Give flayed ones Rending

Change the Tomb spider so that he adds another model to a pre-existing swarm unit. Also increase his WS&BS to 3.

Change Living metal to- "This vehicle always counts as an obscured target!
add, Beacon!
beacon!- any friendly necron unit wishing to Deep Strike within 6" of this model does not scatter.

The C'tan remain the same except receive the Eternal Warrior! USR, and move as jump infantry.

obscured target? what about CC attacks and markerlight bonuses?

Honestly living metal is good as it is. If you give it a 4+ obscured its just a far more expensive tau vehicle. Thats lame. Living metal is a necron awesomeness thing that makes monoliths feared! I mean its so huge (and slow) it never gets cover saves anyway

Problem is though is that living metal is TOO good in this edition. merely because glancing hits cannot destroy vehicles anymore. I agree that the monolith should receive something to make it insanely good, and harder to kill, so perhaps 4+ save and ignores shaken/stunned results would be better. After all it is still a Str9 AP2 blast with Gauss flux arc and can deepstrike.

4+ Inv save, and a Venerable/Holo-field rule would achieve a great level of survivability, without having anything too flavorful or different (as in confusing to beginners) about the unit rules.

Jackmojo wrote:I'd keep Living Metal but make it just a 4+ invulnerable save, that way the monolith can drift forward and ignore shots other, lesser vehicles would need cover to survive.

This also has the added bonus of not rendering specific anti tank weapons (I'm thinking XXXXlances and melta) fairly useless against it and providing equal protection against all threats.

To mimic the old "miniatures teleporting to other units" effect, having every Necron unit count as a Locator Beacon for Deep Strike might be nice.

Personally as to the basic Necron Warrior statline, I would like increased toughness and a decreased save (with FnP), something like this:

WS3
BS4
S3
T5 (to let them keep access to FnP vs most shooting, as well as cementing them as the toughest basic troops)
W1
I2 (or even 1 I like the image of them as slow and solid)
A1
Ld10 (with Stubborn when within say 12-24 inches of a Lord)
Sv 4+

Special Rules:
Slow and Purposeful (But make one of the Lord abilities upgrade them to just Relentless when in his area of effect)
Feel No Pain (call it WBB in the fluff if you want)

Gauss Gun: 24" S4 AP4 Rapid Fire, Rending
Squad size: 5-25 (really just to have a different number here then other armies, I think twenty or thirty is fine, but I like variation).

An Option to purchase the unit a Veil of Darkness rather then being reliant on a character escorting them around. This could be coupled with the Monolith being an extra large beacon and removing the gate ability from the Monolith itself (thus allowing it to not get to spendy).

Other units would be based of this baseline, with a strong emphasis on Lords (and perhaps some other like Tomb Spyders) providing a unit buffer aura to mimic the undead>necromancer spell effects.


Jack

Hmm... like the ideas. But flayed ones, pariahs, etc do need better cc ability, the slow and purposeful idea is good, but would mean that units would break out of formation easily. But that probably isnt a problem for most necron armies. Also, necrons need protection from templates! particularly russes and bassies, seeing as there are so many guard players, flying russ templates decimate necrons with no wbb allowed without res orb. and if yout ake enough rez orbs you cant have c'tan. Also, as said before, phase out needs to be gotten rid of. toughness 5 for troops is a bit silly though. ignored shaken/ stunned results on the monolith would be good, but monolith without living metal = dead monolith. Best thing would be not to change the monolith at all.

Necrons def should not be T5. As it stand right now, it takes something like 36 s3 shots to kill one warrior (with BS3). They are plenty hard as it is.

ChristmasMarine wrote:Necrons def should not be T5. As it stand right now, it takes something like 36 s3 shots to kill one warrior (with BS3). They are plenty hard as it is.

Even though I have an IG army I don't think its really fair to pretend that Str 3 is the baseline combat arm in 40k, only 2 armies have that on their standard troopers (IG and DE) with all but one of the other armies bearing the Str4 guns. And who knows what DE will end up with post redux in the far flung future. In either case both or these armies bring plenty of firepower which can deal with T5 opponents.

Additionally I'm only suggesting T5 in conjunction with a reduced 4+ save and FnP in place of WBB. I'm not sure I want to see anything like the current Resurrection Orb altering the FnP rules (or if so perhaps only in units containing a lord, rather like a Marine command squads Apothecary).

I'll aslo add that part of my thoughts on changing up how the Necrons toughness is represented on the table is to get them feeling less like Space Marines then they do currently.

Jack

I don't even know where to begin, in 4th ed they where good at shooting and pretty fail at everything else, now you have to be better than your opponent or extremely lucky to win with necrons. its kind of sad really, I do like the idea of more units, that's one of the problems I first noticed about the codex when i first got it. and it needs to be at least possible to survive when the enemy reaches your line. you know you suck in combat when you consistently lose to fire warriors
as much as i don't like it, i do agree that the 'lith needs a point increase, but I do like the wwb and Gauss weapon rules, there is a chance that 20 shots will kill a land raider in one round of shooting, that's your most basic squad taking out a tank thats 250 before upgrades

Hmm

I not a cron player but from my point of view this is what they need.

T5 I like WWB. I mean FNP can be stop my anything thats goes through your save ( i think) plasma will mean no FNP at T4 or T5 plasma still lets you have WWB.

Pariah need FNP thats for sure maybe of a 3+ for thier points costs. Wraiths power attacks.

Phase out is removed if you take the nightbringer or deceiver.

Monolith Needs points up. Or maybe lose living metal aginst monsterous creatures. (being a tyranid player i get niffed at no 2d6 mainly another reason to run 3 ranged fex's in heavies)

The Gauss special rule i'd leave it. Give crons rending in cc, like the other post i've seen twice in honesly afew games crons have imoblized a Land raider and taken of weapons it's affective against mech honestly.

Destroyer Lord i like the idea of being able to take destroyer's as troops and heavy destoryers as fast attack with a lord destroyer.

and above as well following eldar with wraithguard, flayed ones becomes troops choices in full squads.

Just my thoughts to try bring life back to a codex that needs love.

I agree mostly with what ripister said the only thing I would change about the changes he suggested is the rending on crons. the only crons I would give rending is flayed ones and possibly wraiths.

I like the ideas suggested. If you give Crons FNP and +1 toughness lowering their save would make sense. However, I am personally more for crons being SnP with FnP and keeping their 3+ save. This makes them worse than Plague Marines still, but due to having rending weps (as suggested) will equal em out some. This also avoids all confusion that goes with stupid WBB (people still insist that sweeping advances they get to WBB from with orb -_-)

Monoliths are powerful, thats a given. I honestly don't see what all the fuss is, however. As one poster suggested, if you give the holofield upgrade thats basically Living Metal... All living metal does is does not allow you your 2d6 to pen and ignores lance effects (which only affect 2 armies). That alone is what makes it so damn hard to kill! But a lot of people can still take care of it. Tau can down it easily with railguns, nids can down it with str 10 carnifexes, a good lascannon roll can down this beast, powerfists and things can still glance it, warbosses and things can beat it down, khorne zerkers can plow it with a power fist. I agree it should be easier to kill via glances, however. Seeing as you need 6 weapon destroyed, 1 immobilize, and 1 other result to kill it is kind of ridiculous. I would suggest that for each weapon destroyed result you kill off 1 cannon. This gives it 4 weapons, which is as much as a typical imperial land raider (2 sponsons, 1 pintle, 1 heavy bolter/assault cannon). The size of the damn thing will prevent it from ever getting a cover save really (except in rare cases or theres tons of guys in front of the troop your shooting). Honestly I think Liths are the backbone of Crons, its huge and scary, and I really think it should be something your like "oh s**t" when you see it drop down! I would also agree with a points increase (275 points?) and maybe a few rules tweaks.

I like the suggestion someone made for wraiths. I think they should be 2+/3+ saves, T5, and get 1 extra attack. Keep the unit size the same. They should also get the FnP rule. This would make them difficult to kill for normal joes and just as resiliant as TH/SS termis in most assaults, however not being power weapons (and such low numbers) would make them balance a bit. I mean they almost always hit, and at str 6 they will almost always wound. I would say, however, that you should be able to take a Wraith Lord style HQ thats basically a Wraith, but with 1 more attack base, T6, and give em a power weapon. Make him kinda expensive tho, a guy moving 12", assaulting 6" with a relic blade and monsterous creatures toughness would be a nightmare, but at least crons would have a good melee HQ! So he'd look like this

Wraith Lord - 200 points
WS BS S T W I A LD SV
6 0 6 6 3 5 5 10 2+/3+
Special Rules:
Wraith Body - A wraith lord is essentially a wraith promoted to a lord. As such he has all special rules associated with wraiths.
Sentient Being - Unlike normal Wraiths, a Wraith lord may equip gear. As such he may replace his claws with a Warscythe for no additional cost, losing 1 base attack and 1 strength.

Something like that (I'm terrible with making charecters)

For warriors I like the idea of rending guns, tho honestly (even tho people say its been nerfed) 40 rapid fire shots that can rend means they will own almost any normal unit in the game when they shoot. I think it should become an AP3 shot, this allows elite things (terminators, hive tyrants, etc.) their saves under barrages of cron fire. Seriously, if crons had rending and got into rapid fire range you'd roll between 3-4 rending shots (on average). And being able to wipe a normal termi squad off the face of the planet in 1 shooting phase seems kinda... op for a normal troop choice :/ And imagine how goddly immortals would be!

Flayed ones I think should keep their fluffy rules, but in addition to that they should come with power weapons. Keep their stats the same (MEQ's), but make them all have power weapons and this additional rule;
Skinning - Flayed Ones affinity for skinning slayed foes is well known and causes fear among all their foes. Whenever a unit of Flayed Ones wins any melee combat the following round that unit has the "Preferred Enemy" USR due to their excitement (how do robots get excited anyway?) at adding more flesh to their pile.
This would give crons a great normal CC unit, while wraiths can be more for wounding larger prey.

Those are a few suggestions. I'd say keep scarabs the same, C'tans are pretty much good (maybe change em around a little to be better in 5th ed). Destroyers need to be 3+/5+, being a long range cannon shooting guy means basically anything targeted at them will be pretty painful. Maybe make them 2 wounds as well, and probably a slight increase in points (they're costly as it is)

And biggest thing of all; take away phase out! I know its fluffy, but seeing as crons are expensive as it is (and several units don't count toward phase out) means you can't think strategically really. The fact you HAVE to take a lot of warriors to boost your phase out before getting to pick other stuff is a great hindrance on the army. I don't think people like having to take cheaper stuff just to allow the army to survive more than 3 turns!