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Please rate this idea

*New Unit Upgrade*
Sanguinary Priest
-- The Sanguinary Priest is a unit upgrade for Blood Angels Tactical, Assault, And Veteran Assault Squads. This upgrade costs +10pts for Tactical Squads, +15 points for Assault Squads, and +20 points for Veteran Assault Squads.
--Any Blood Angel Tactical, Assault, or Veteran Assault Squad that contains a Sanguinary Priest does not contribute any members to the Death Company. The close medical attention and spiritual guidance of the priest makes succumbing to the Black Rage far less likely.

-- One model in the squad is upgraded to a Sanguinary Priest for the points cost listed above. At the beginning of every game turn, decide which ability to use.
- Strive for Perfection -- The Sanguinary priest gives aid to the wounded while exhorting his battle brothers on to achieve perfection in their execution of the battle plan. The squad benefits from the Feel No Pain USR this turn.
- Wrath of the Angel-- The Sanguinary Priest fills his brothers with the righteous wroth of the Angel. The squad benefits from the Furious Charge USR this turn.

--The Sanguinary Priest has the stats of a veteran Blood Angel, and is equipped with a power weapon and bolt pistol.




Reasoning
I costed him as he is because the squad is already paying for a built in Death Company guy that they don't get to take if they take the priest. So his 'real' cost is 50 points in a tactical, etc.
A lot of people want to see the Blood Angels get new USRs to make them uber in combat. I don't feel that an army wide thing is manageable, and I don't like having a special character hand it out in a bubble. The Priest leaves this open- you can get these nice rules for an extra cost, but then you miss out on the death company. Alternatively, you can do a half and half thing and have some squads with USRs, and some adding to the Death Company.
Having another character upgrade to a squad seems thematic to me. Blood Angels are obsessed with purity and perfection, so having the Priest along makes sense. Additionally, he is another guy swinging a power weapon, possibly at S and I 5. This helps stress the theme that Blood Angels are an army with a higher incidence of individuals who excel in hand to hand combat, although the baseline marine is much the same as any other.
Throwing another A2 base power weapon guy in the squad really boosts the squad's combat umph without making them a non-codex chapter. No assault ramps on rhinos, uber grit, or fleet necessary- this change keeps the Blood Angels codex, and powerful in assault, with potentially eight S5 power weapon attacks, and 16 regular S5 attacks hitting before a regular marine squad can hit back.

I can see play testing it at this cost (certainly under the current codex its not as if the Blood Angels are wildly overpowered or anything).

have you tried it yet?

Jack

Yeah. Only in one game w/ this being the only change though. It was 2000 points and the guy took to priests in assault squads and everybody else contributed to the death company. One of the squads got nuked on the way in by a p-cannon dev squad, but the other one performed how I hoped it would. They were a good bit more choppy, but they weren't just obliterating stuff. The assault squad killed a dev squad and a full bike squad before getting killed by the same p-cannon dev squad that got the others.

I think that one of the things that makes one army more elite than another is how many decisions the general has to make per turn for the army to function. Having lots of little choices to make I think enhances the fun of the game for both sides. That was the case in this game, with the opfor making a few FNP vs. FC choices that suprised me.

In your next play test you should attempt to abuse it as much as possible, i.e. have every unit possible take it and see if it renders the army overpowered (as I suspect it might), since it gives you an army of plague-marines who turn into berserkers when they decide to charge.

Jack

Definitely but-
Plague Marines have T5, blight grenades, uber grit, are fearless, can take two specials in less than 10 men, and can be possessed by greater demons.

Beserkers have WS5, +200% greater base attacks, are fearless, and can have any squad size up to 20 men.

I will definitely test it in the manner that you said, but they are really outclassed by both of those troop choices. More realistically they go from slightly more resilient marines, to slightly choppier marines when they decide to charge.

In interesting idea, though I was actually expecting an HQ choice rather than a unit upgrade.

I wonder though if the power weapon is too much, or at least should be purchased after the upgrade.

Interesting Idea but don't forget the the Priest are like their apothecaries as well.

10 points for FNP or furious charge? Seriously?
Here, I'll help you stat it correctly.
The power weapon alone is 15 points. The Veteran profile and ability to take another power sword wielder in a squad is say 15 points, as that is how much it costs to upgrade a marine to a sergeant. Okay, 10 points, because he doesn't have all the same options as a sergeant.
Then the FNP. IG Pay 30 points to give 5 t3 5+ armor dues FNP, you want the ability to give close combat troops in large squads FNP, so we are talking 30 points MINIMUM.
As for furious charge, we'll just say that since it's either FNP or FC every turn the 30 points for FNP covers it. 3 points per model would match the cost that CSM paid to take it on their marines as a veteran skill.
You shouldn't have to pay for both FC and FNP fully, but the option is there, so 10 points or so.
Taking one makes you have 1 fewer death company marine "upgrade" so we'll say you lose out on 10 points: -10.

Total cost: 55 points seems reasonable, 60 or 70 might be more acceptable.

ph34r wrote:10 points for FNP or furious charge? Seriously?
Here, I'll help you stat it correctly.
The power weapon alone is 15 points. The Veteran profile and ability to take another power sword wielder in a squad is say 15 points, as that is how much it costs to upgrade a marine to a sergeant. Okay, 10 points, because he doesn't have all the same options as a sergeant.
Then the FNP. IG Pay 30 points to give 5 t3 5+ armor dues FNP, you want the ability to give close combat troops in large squads FNP, so we are talking 30 points MINIMUM.
As for furious charge, we'll just say that since it's either FNP or FC every turn the 30 points for FNP covers it. 3 points per model would match the cost that CSM paid to take it on their marines as a veteran skill.
You shouldn't have to pay for both FC and FNP fully, but the option is there, so 10 points or so.
Taking one makes you have 1 fewer death company marine "upgrade" so we'll say you lose out on 10 points: -10.

Total cost: 55 points seems reasonable, 60 or 70 might be more acceptable.

Really comparing points costs to other Codexes just doesn't work. Plauge Marines are only what 25ish points and get T(5) Fearless, FNP, Blight Grenades etc... (as stated above). I could go on and on but it would just hammer the point down harder.

The idea is actually fantastic. Not having that extra Death Company (which really is very important) for getting USRs that are almost staples for blood angels really seem great!

The only problem I can really see people having is that the Priest does have a built in Power Weapon which normally costs +15 points. Remove the PW and just give him a Chainsword and I think this would work very well.

Another idea would be to have them alternate between Furious Charge and Fearless/Fleet. A bunch of flying FNP marines could get QUITE scary.

The points etc. probably aren't exact but really the idea is very good.

Blight grenades: probably only worth 1 or two points
No pistol: -1 or so
-1 initiative: -1 point
FNP: 5 or so points per model
T 4(5): 5 points
Fearless: 1 point
Base CSM: 14 points
Total: 24 points

Plague marines are generally considered to be at least slightly undercosted, so I think the breakdown is very reasonable.

If I went with these costs then I would put the price of the priest at not 55 minimum, but 75 minimum (5 points per model for FNP just as plague marines pay.) You would consider this even worse. People consider plague marines competitive, you are in contradiction to this it would seem.

Giving a squad a veteran with power weapon, and feel no pain for a cost less than what a very competitive unit pays for it makes absolutely no sense. Thanks for reminding me about plague marines. I would consider this unit at 75 points competitive in this case. 5 points per model to give the squad FNP or furious charge, and then 25 points for a veteran with power weapon. Perfectly in line with other costs that are considered balanced.

Given that this is a made up unit I would then apply the "you made this crap up" tax of 15 points to it.
One should probably also apply a "you can take this unit in every unit and drastically change your army" cost but I'm sure you wouldn't agree with that.

I mean seriously, you are talking about a model that gives an ability on par with a chaplain's re-roll hits in cc,
at a lesser cost,
which does not take a HQ slot,
can be taken in any unit,
and can't be targeted like an IC.

In conclusion, 90 points would be a fair cost.

This upgrade is massively undercosted, especially on the Assault units where Furious Charge becomes more useful.

ph34r wrote:Blight grenades: probably only worth 1 or two points
No pistol: -1 or so
-1 initiative: -1 point
FNP: 5 or so points per model
T 4(5): 5 points
Fearless: 1 point
Base CSM: 14 points
Total: 24 points

Plague marines are generally considered to be at least slightly undercosted, so I think the breakdown is very reasonable.

If I went with these costs then I would put the price of the priest at not 55 minimum, but 75 minimum (5 points per model for FNP just as plague marines pay.) You would consider this even worse. People consider plague marines competitive, you are in contradiction to this it would seem.

Giving a squad a veteran with power weapon, and feel no pain for a cost less than what a very competitive unit pays for it makes absolutely no sense. Thanks for reminding me about plague marines. I would consider this unit at 75 points competitive in this case. 5 points per model to give the squad FNP or furious charge, and then 25 points for a veteran with power weapon. Perfectly in line with other costs that are considered balanced.

Given that this is a made up unit I would then apply the "you made this crap up" tax of 15 points to it.
One should probably also apply a "you can take this unit in every unit and drastically change your army" cost but I'm sure you wouldn't agree with that.

I mean seriously, you are talking about a model that gives an ability on par with a chaplain's re-roll hits in cc,
at a lesser cost,
which does not take a HQ slot,
can be taken in any unit,
and can't be targeted like an IC.

In conclusion, 90 points would be a fair cost.

Good points, but you're missing the OP's hidden cost of losing a 35 point model for every priest you buy. The fact that the Priest subtracts out from the Death Company is huge. I would say that the cost is fair if you take away the power weapon from him or up it by about 15 points for the extra power weapon so he costs 25 points in a tactical squad, 30 points in an assault squad and 35 points in a veteran assault squad. With the loss of the DC model, he is effectively costing 60, 65, and 70 points respectively which is pretty fair. He is still subject to wound allocation and only has a 3+ save and 1 wound.

You do lose a 30 point model, but you don't really need DC with these priests running around, and I would put the worth of a DC at 20-25 points rather than the 30p cost of adding more. So, I'd say 70 points for tacs is a good start.

ph34r-- how does it work that you first don't read my post and accuse me of wanting to give this upgrade out at 10 points, then when you are corrected, you immediately shift and say that people won't take Death Company if they take Sanguinary Priests.

I'll tell you what won't work- a 70 point upgrade to a tactical squad for a one wound model. That is close to 50 percent of the cost of an entire squad. You are just being contrarian for some reason.

FNP is less useful the less toughness a squad has. FNP is therefore much more useful for a squad of T5 than for a squad of T4. Nobody will pay 75 points for FNP on a T4 squad, when they could just get 5 more marines. Especially when that 75 point upgrade is going to restrict the number of Death Company they can take.

Plus, how is your advice helpful? I should just add 15 points to everything because I made it up? Really? You want a single, one wound model that is a squad upgrade to cost 90 points! Ten points less than a librarian! Then you say that you know I won't agree with it like I'm being unreasonable. 90 points. Seriously. 90. Three rhinos almost. A freaking predator.

Plus- you say that it can be taken in ANY unit! It can be taken in THREE units. THREE. Did you read the OP? At all? Or did you just feel like skimming it, posting the stuff you didn't like, then trolling around?


Others- I think that the PW is too much, especially since it is a required thing. I am thinking it might be better to give him access to a baby-armory, and allow him to take a Plasma Pistol or a Power Weapon if he wants (or both) but have him come stock with a chainsword/bp. I'm not sure about the Fleet thing instead of FNP- in the playtest games, FNP didn't matter a whole lot, but fleet would have made a BIG difference. I will try it out, but I think that Fleet is actually more powerful than FNP in this case. I don't really like Fearless, as he is basically an apothecary with a slightly religious twist, and not really of the stature to make the marine Fearless.

I'll address your post point by point!

I read your entire post. You do straight up say that for tac squads it costs 10 points. Can you read? I can read your post to you if you want.
I was never corrected because I was right on this. However if you wish to edit your post to not have the upgrade cost 10 points, then I might appear to be wrong.
You are not merely paying 75 points for the FNP. You are paying 50 points, or 5 points a model, the same cost that other marines pay. If guard can pay 6 points per model for it in t3 command squads, and nurgle marines pay 5 points for it in just one troops squad, you can at least pay 5 points for it if you want it in all your good assault units. You are also getting a second sergeant with power weapon. Honestly this is not that complicated.
I say add 15 points because armies are designed to have holes that are not filled, and if you want to fill one then you don't get to pay a very competitive price.

Sorry, I guess I was just trolling when I said "any" unit. Clearly, people would just love to give these to Scouts and Devastators. My bad.

If you are unable to understand parts of my posts feel free to just say so instead of railing against me for things that I don't say.


EDIT: also if it helps, chaplains are 100 points, and all they are not even much better than these priests. They gain 1 weapon skill and wound, and a 4+ invulnerable, but they lose the ability to hide in a squad and cost 10 points more. FNP or FC and FNP are approximately equal, and these priests don't take HQ slots. I don't know how much one places the value of taking a slot at, but 10-20 points is definitely too low. 75 might feel slightly too high, but only due to the "making stuff up" cost. You can't custom design a unit at a very good price compared to other codex units and expect people to play against you.

Another option t would be to make him replace/upgrade from the Sergeant, as the Apothecaries do in the Red Scorpion list (forgeworld), that way you don't end up with extra Power Weapons beyond what a squad can routinely carry.

@ph34r- I'd point out that the above referenced Red Scorpions (and the last marine codex) only pay 25 points for adding apothecaries to Tactical squads, and in the case of the Red Scorpions list this does indeed grant them FnP, so I think you're overvaluing it some.

Jack

@Jack, FNP in a tactical squad isn't particularly useful, but in an assault unit it becomes more powerful.
(also forgeworld are not known for taking balance into consideration when they write rules)

So the people that read my original post and arrived at the correct costing are just psychics? Because they read the exact same text that you did and came away with the correct conclusion. There is a built in 'upgrade' in the squads cost that goes towards the priest, making him 50 base. I don't need to edit it, since others understood-- just not you.

Terminators, assaulty scouts, command squads- there are plenty of choppy units that I left out of who would benefit greatly from having a S.P. Glib fail on the 'oh my devastators'! there. There ARE unit limitations that have an effect here. Plus, I would definitely take FNP on my devastators (with plasma cannons) if I could.

As I said, I've playtested these before. Both of the priests during the playtest were in assault squads. Neither of the priests survived to make it into combat. The only effect they had on the game was one of them pinged FC on his way into assault (He was killed moving into dangerous terrain before the assault) and his squad brought down a combat squad of dudes.

A fully tricked out squad, that has suffered zero casualties on the way in and manages to get a charge off will kill 5 marines on the charge, if the squad has an upgraded sgt and priest. I don't think that that is game breaking. I don't think that that performance warrants a 70-90 point character.

My contention with your suggestion is that people won't take the character at your price point. He isn't worth it. You compare him to a chaplain. People don't take chaplains.

There is a need for this in the Blood Angel book. If you cost this character out of anything that is realistic, then he won't be taken and that need won't be addressed.

Why don't you split the difference between your intiial points costs and ph34r's suggestion, then try it out in three or four games? Say 40 points, or 30 for one without a power weapon, and see how it goes. Than you can adjust based on how the units performed.

I will note, ph34r, that arguing about points cost when there has been such little playtesting seems somewhat ridiculous. The most reasonable-sounding things are shown to be ludicrously over or under-costed on the tabletop. Might I suggest you play with this a little before bashing it?

I understand your point perfectly.
I think you are wrong in your details and your methods.
If you think that chaplains are not worth it, tough. I'm not going to play against your made-up unit that is significantly better than another unit in the book. Just because you think that something in the book is bad doesn't mean that you should make a custom ruled better, more available version for your own pet army.
Just because I think ogryn suck doesn't mean I should go around making my own custom, superior version of ogryn, that can be taken as troops to boot, and that doesn't suffer from a lack of willingness to enter transports.
It doesn't matter if you lose death company when you can just stick a priest in an assault squad or veteran assault squad and BAM, death company with another character, the option to furious charge, and no blood frenzy restriction.

People won't take him at the price point? Fine. Custom rules aren't for making your army better, for fixing your army's problems, they are for fun. It's not like you are going to be able to enter a tournament with your fantastic "my vet assault squad is as good as death company!" upgrade characters.

It doesn't matter if you think that this is a "need" for the BA book. Needs should not be fixed by pulling things out of your ass, every army doesn't get to have everything.

Your priest is a veteran assault marine. He gives everyone FNP or FC. He has a power weapon. He removes one DC from your army. I think this is worth 25+50+15-30 points, plus 15 points in order for it to be less competitive than the list's actual units and not become an "auto take" unit. I have provided logical reasoning behind my points costs, you have just said "I need this", "my costs are correct", "they should be better than chaplains". Either get some legitimate reasoning or go home.

I would like to see Blood Angels get the Catalyst power from the Nids codex. They attack back in combat, even if killed. I know I4 usually gets to go, but it would make them scarier to those armies that have the ability to go first in an assault.

I like where this is heading.
I think starting with the PW might be a bit much though.
Why not make this an upgrade from the Sargent, that way there would still only be the one PW. Giving up a DP member that has Both FnP AND FC for a model that can give FnP OR FC to a squad sounds fair to me. All it would take is a stray volley or blast from a battle cannon to wipe them out. s8 or more will ignore the FnP and as for FC just pump them full of shots before they get to charge.
One minor change you may want to consider is instead of giving them FC have Preferred enemy instead, to represent the priest getting the pumped for the fight in a less blood crazy mad rage.

psf3077 wrote:Giving up a DP member that has Both FnP AND FC for a model that can give FnP OR FC to a squad sounds fair to me.

One guy vs. ten guys.

I agree with Ph34r, WAAY Undercosted.


I suggest you make him an HQ, You can keep all the abilities and what he does is more justifiable.

If you make him an HQ I would say make him cost more but give him like a 6 or 12 inch bubble where he can give FNP or FC to 1 troop choice per turn.

Kinda funny how this actually turned out.

I read through this thread and suddenly the first thing popped into mind 'But...This unit dosn't NEED an upgrade, its already a huge thorn in my side!'

I like some of the ideas for the priest, although Im a fan of 'ditch power weapon, increase point cost' train. I like armies to have a hole in their armour, BA's are already hard to beat for my gunline, but jet pack marines who switch from FNP running up to FC when/if they reach there? Thats a huge benifit and people may say 'oh but Battle cannon ignores that?!' the battle cannon isn't 100% reliable and its hard at the best of times to slow a BA assault.

--Any Blood Angel Tactical, Assault, or Veteran Assault Squad that contains a Sanguinary Priest does not contribute any members to the Death Company. The close medical attention and spiritual guidance of the priest makes succumbing to the Black Rage far less likely.

Huh? You do know there's a 5th edition codex, right... Members aren't contributed to a Death Company anymore.

There is no such thing anymore as a "Veteran Assault Squad" The closest thing to it is a Vanguard Veterans Squad.

Based on the way you priced this, I'm basically getting everything I did before, but paying almost no points for it, and not having the option of Terminator armor.
I just use Feel No Pain up until the turn I'm charging, I use Furious Charge, and then Feel No Pain the next turn, and am therefore never losing the bonuses of a Sanguinary Priest, but at the same time paying no points for an extra power weapon and member for the squad.

The only thing I can see that was made weaker through this would be the Sanguinary Priest being WS 4...

He necroed it (intentionally), this is a half a year older then the new codex.

I do agree it is rather funny how this played out, given what we know now (also note how the Red Scorpions now get Apothecaries on tactical squads for free in IA:9 via Chapter Tactics).

Jack

He necroed it (intentionally), this is a half a year older then the new codex.

Oh, sorry.

I thought this was new...

People shouldn't commit thread necromancy...