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I was reading a Tactica on Bell of Lost Souls which makes a number of statements regarding Jaws of the world wolf and the fact that it doesn't have a target.

While I would agree that the line is simply drawn in any direction you want, since it doesn't specify to draw it through the target unit, I would also disagree in that, I believe the Wolf Priest still has to target something. While at first it seems like a pedantic issue it could have effects, for example (using a quote from the linked article):

...which means the power doesn't require Line of Sight. Losing targeting means we get to ignore a ton of targeting restrictions like Night Fight (and Veil of Tears, Stealth Suits, etc.)

While I agree you can throw the line through units you can't see for these reasons, if for example, night fighting was in effect, I think the priest would have to nominate a target and successfully roll to spot it before he could use this power, similarly, if he was attached to a unit then if his unit failed to spot their targets, he could not use this power.

Similarly, if for some reason there were no units within the rune priest's LOS (or he could not succesfully draw LOS to the unit being fired on by a space wolves squad he is attached to) then he would not be able to use this ability in my view.


So am I correct, and this is a case of another website not being as well versed in the rules as Dakka (admittedly not a rare occurence) or do you guys think that just because the ability doesn't specify an interaction with a targetted unit, then the Rune Priest is entirely exempt from having to have a target, despite using a shooting attack.

There is nothing in the power that requires you to nominate a target unit, therefore you do not. In fact if you want you can nominate a target unit, but it would have no bearing on the usage of the power - you could still pick any direction you want, as you are never contrained to choose the direction of your target.

You do exactly as the power tells you to - you pick a direction. At no point do you invoke any of the shooting rules (you never nominate a single target for the "shot" to afffect, you never check range (to the target), LOS, roll to hit, to wound) therefroe none of the restrictions contained within "shooting" will ever applyh.

You can hit targets in CC, even your own models if you want.

I would say as it counts a psychic shooting attack, and psychic shooting attacks count as firing a ranged weapon, and units can't fire 'at all' if they don't roll high enough in Night fighting, the power can't be used if it can't see its target.

Like Drunkspleen, i don't agree with the tactica... which doesn't seem to say why it should function differently in that respect.

Edit: Term replaced.

If it counted as a psychic shooting attack it would say that, but it doesn't so it's not. You draw a line and roll for everything on it, friend or foe. The power clearly describes how this works, even if that explanation is slowed that's just how it works.

In night fighting you have to be shooting, you don't have to draw LoS to any point on your line so it doesn't apply at all. You can happily fire JoTWW through a hill you can't see over etc.

Aramoro

Aramoro wrote:If it counted as a psychic shooting attack it would say that

Uhh... Have you read it? It is a psychic shooting attack and states so.

I have just reread this and I stand corrected, it's a Shooting attack so must follow all the rules for a shooting attack I guess. I still don't think it has a target as such, it's incredibly vaguely worded isn't it. I'm going to come down on the side that it's a shooting attack therefore you cannot do it if you cannot shoot but you're not shooting at anything specific so you don't need to follow the targeting or hitting rules as it specifically tells you how to work out who gets hit.

Aramoro

I have to agree, the tactica is blatantly incorrect.

You may have to pick a target, however nothing in the power requires you to actually then pick a direction towards that target.

Right, as long as you realize you will have to be able to see the target you pick. A failed night fighting spot check will stop you from drawing the line, regardless of where you were going to draw it.

I suppose if night fighting is only during turn 1, this isn't a real problem. The rules are indeed poorly written in the sense described by Ridcully.. but it probably won't have a game-breaking effect.

Unless the units touched by the line are counted as target units.. in which each would have to be rolled for. Doesn't really make sense though. I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

By the way a wolf priest does not have ACcess to powers like jaws of the wolf or any other powers.

Its only Rune priests

I advocate for the (decidedly unpopular) position that every model affected by Jaws of the World Wolf must be a valid target.

As the caster of Jaws, you get to decide where to put the line. Jaws affects models, not units. By deciding where to put the line, you are choosing which models are affected by the power. By deciding which models are affected by the power, you are targeting those models. If you target something with a shooting attack (which JotWW is), it must be a valid target. That means you have to follow those pesky rules for choosing targets like:
1. Line of sight
2. No friendly models
3. No models in CC.

While I haven't read the tactica, if it says that JotWW does not have a target, I would disagree.

-GK

Except there is no target. Not one. At no point does Jaws target anything. It simply affects models along its 24" line. Therefore, you basically ignore all of the shooting rules. BOLS is correct in their rulings.

I disagree with Giantkiller. While I do agree that in order to use Jaws of the World of Warcraft Wolf you must be able to see a target in order to draw a line; but I don't think that would stop the line from continuing on and possibly hitting something unseen along it's path.

Aya wrote:Except there is no target. Not one. At no point does Jaws target anything. It simply affects models along its 24" line. Therefore, you basically ignore all of the shooting rules. BOLS is correct in their rulings.

Psykers, p50 BRB. It tells you what happens with a "Psychic Shooting Attack", which is exactly what this is stated to be. There needs to be a visible target unit, the firer cannot be locked in combat, they can't run and fire etc

Ok, then as a shooting attack how does this affect allies and models in combat? Shooting attacks can't target them, but this power can. This is because the silly thing doesn't tell you to pick a target. Therefore you can't.

God, will this codex ever cease to be a huge can of worms?

Ok, then as a shooting attack how does this affect allies and models in combat?

Shooting attacks can effect models in combat. It's just not as easy.

For example, you can shoot (enemy) models in CC with a template weapon. You could, with sufficient forethought, do this very deliberately, in fact.

You can also scatter a blast weapon into a CC and hit enemies OR friends, although that's more of an accident...

Although, as it relates to your point, in neither case can you choose to actually target the unit of the models being hit.

God, will this codex ever cease to be a huge can of worms?

Aren't they all?

In this case it seems like a lot of the worms are growing out of JotWoWW as well. It's really the crushingly crappy low point of the whole Codex.

Phryxis wrote:
For example, you can shoot (enemy) models in CC with a template weapon. You could, with sufficient forethought, do this very deliberately, in fact.

Uh... don't the rules specifically prohibit this? (pg40 BRB)

Aya wrote:Ok, then as a shooting attack how does this affect allies and models in combat? Shooting attacks can't target them, but this power can. This is because the silly thing doesn't tell you to pick a target. Therefore you can't.

The target you pick cannot be a friendly unit, nor can it be locked in combat as per BRB "Check Line of Sight and Pick a Target".

Vibro Cannons (eldar), which also involve line drawing, don't need to pick a target. It specifies so in their entry.

Uh... don't the rules specifically prohibit this? (pg40 BRB)

Yup, you're right.

They don't mention this in the rules for templates, which is the only place I thought to check.

Aya wrote:Ok, then as a shooting attack how does this affect allies and models in combat? Shooting attacks can't target them, but this power can. This is because the silly thing doesn't tell you to pick a target. Therefore you can't.

God, will this codex ever cease to be a huge can of worms?

As mentioned in my OP, because the power never mentions interacting with the target you can draw the line in any direction you want through friendly units and close combats, you simply need a valid target, because like any other shooting attack, you must be eligible to shoot to use it, which includes having a valid target in LOS.

So whats the rule for using the vibrocannon?
If it also involves line drawing and is targetless perhaps the usage would be the same?

Stygian Mole wrote:If it also involves line drawing and is targetless perhaps the usage would be the same?

Not without errata or an FAQ.

As opposed to baseless speculation?
Just thought it might answer some questions or give some insight (within reason)

Sorry? The baseless speculation is on the "assuming you don't need a target" side. I'm on the "is a psychic shooting attack because it's called a psychic shooting attack" side.

Im just saying, when in doubt it doesn't hurt to outsource...? You know, see how similar instances are treated? Just seems logical to me.

Stygian Mole wrote:Im just saying, when in doubt it doesn't hurt to outsource...? You know, see how similar instances are treated? Just seems logical to me.

Logic and 40k mix as well as Puppies and Interstellar Voids.

Stygian Mole wrote:Im just saying, when in doubt it doesn't hurt to outsource...? You know, see how similar instances are treated? Just seems logical to me.

The problem is it's hard to consider it similar because the Vibro Cannon says "When firing a vibro cannon battery, roll to hit (the firer does not need to pick a target)." So it specifically overrides the need for a target when shooting, however JotWW fails to do so. The only real similarity between them is that they both involve lines.

Unlike Jaws, Vibro Cannons affect units. See Codex:Eldar p. 45. Jaws affects models.

Also, the Vibro Cannon rule specifically says "the firer does not need to pick a target". Codex:Eldar p. 45. The Jaws rule contains no such language.

In my opinion, choosing which models to affect is the same as targeting those models. There are only two conditions under which a shooting attack can affect 'invalid targets' such as friendly models/units and models/units in combat:
1. If the attack's rules specifically say so.
2. If scatter is involved.

Neither is the case with Jaws of the World Wolf.

-GK

But nowhere does JotWW say the line has to be aimed at the target.