Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

It seems to me that when a S10 weapons were to hit a T1 target, the fluff would support the total destruction or extreme unlikelihood of any of the targets surviving. However in the rules, everyone has a one in six chance of survival. So, I propose a quick fix to that, hopefully it is simple. A target unit that suffers a hit from a weapon greater than twice it's toughness (please note, GREATER THAN, so T4 hit by S8 does not apply) but fails to wound, those failed rolls are rolled again (please note that this does not count as a reroll), and on a 4+ the wound is inflicted but does not cause Instant Death as it normally might (please note that this only refers to the weapon being more than twice the target's toughness, not to any special rules or circumstances). Other rules that may still apply, such as Feel No Pain may be applied as well. However if the model has any special rules that might suggest it ignore the wound (for example, rolls to wound of 4+ being ignored), the wound still effects.

Example; a T4 model with W3 is struck by a S9 and a S8 shot. On the roll to wound, the S9 wound rolls a 1 and the S8 rolls a 1. The S8 wound is disregarded, but the S9 will take another roll. The second roll results in a 5, and the model fails any saves it has. The result is the model loses a single wound.

I'd prefer just the re-roll to wound, its simpler and less finicky.

Jack

I was beginning to wonder if either no-one was looking at new threads anymore, or if I had hit the nail on the head so directly that there was nothing to complain about and thus no comments. That is of course making the assumption that 99.9% of posts made on the internet are complaints.

While I had considered a straight re-roll system, there are a great many of weapons with special rules allowing them to re-roll failed to wound rolls and making it a simple re-roll would be deficient to those weapons, as you can only re-roll once. Not to mention that that sort of system would nigh guarantee all S(2xT)+ weapons to always wound, as it would be a one-in-thirty-six chance of failing to wound, rather than one-in-six and one-in-twelve as per the normal wounding system and my proposed system respectively.

EDIT : General repairs.

it makes sense, but a simple reroll would be much simpler IMO

The existing high WS/BS rerolls could be used as a template for this kind of roll. Maybe 1 chance in 6 per point over doubling of T? This way a S9 weapon vs. T4 would wound on a second roll of 6 while S10 would wound on 5-6. Vs. T3, a S9 weapon would wound on a re-roll of 4+ and a S10 on 3+. My eldar would not like those odds I tell you.

I agree that a straight re-roll would be simpler, but also throw out some of that wacky 40k randomness that we all know and love.

As much as it pains me, I have to say that I agree with you and that I actually really like this idea!

Am I to assume that everyone is in agreement with this rule? Also, poll added.

I like the idea, but how about this?

If a model is hit by a weapon of more than double its strength, and the roll to wound is a 1, 1 wound is taken anyway, but normal saves apply.


So, for example:

S10 Demolisher cannon hits 5 guardsmen and a Lord Commissar.

The to-wound rolls are 1 (on the Lord Commissar), 1, 2, 4, 4, and 5.

4 guardsmen take wounds and die without saves.

The other guardsman rolls an armor save, gets a 6, and survives.

The Lord Commissar gets to take an armor save, rolls a 3, and takes 1 wound.

But now they always take a wound. Consider models that do not have an armor save. Even they should get a chance.

Yes, but it's simpler and I think it's far more realistic than a gretchin surviving a battlecannon blast.

Stranger things have happened, and I don't think it's much more complicated to roll a D6 for 4+. I know more than one WWII vet that had an arty round land an arms reach away and they walked away, but their buddies twenty feet to the other side bought it. It's just not very likely.

Of course, its your rule and it seems fine. In general, I err on the side of simplification, but that's just me. If you prefer your way, definitely go for it. I'll ask my group which interpretation they prefer. I definitely like the idea.

I appreciate your candor, Mr. Blake, and I agree that simple is typically better, I just don't want to completely remove the possibility for a model to survive, as there are few rules that do so (and those that do I am completely against, such as Wolf's Bane, I believe it is called, of the new Space Wolf codex).

EDIT : Bad grammar.

I guess I'm the only dissenter-I think you're adding another layer of dice rolling that's not necessary.

Ordznik wrote:I guess I'm the only dissenter-I think you're adding another layer of dice rolling that's not necessary.

Would you have an alternative suggestion? Or do you feel the current method is satisfactory?

I believe the current method is alright. I am, however, not going to vote as many ideas here have merit and backed with quite logical reasoning.

Illeix wrote:I believe the current method is alright. I am, however, not going to vote as many ideas here have merit and backed with quite logical reasoning.

Your comment is appreciated.

I gave this some further thought and decided I'd only like a change like this if it helped remove some of the other complexities in the wound system (specifically Instant Death and its ill begotten spawn Eternal Warrior) and came up with the following:

Instead of the wound chart capping at a 2+ to wound being the best option each poin of strength after the first 2+ entry adds an additional die to the 'to wound' roll, which gives high strength weapons a very good chance, but not 100% of killing 1 wound models, and also allows them an opportunity to inflict multiple wounds on multi-wound models.

Example: Krak Missile hits Lysander (or any toughness 4 model), three to wound rolls are made, and then he takes saves as normal.

This would allow the removal of some rather cludgy rules as well as allowing weapons with massive overkill a very high chance (but not a perfect one) to kill mooks. High Strength Artillery becomes very scary as well.

Jack

P.S. And force weapons inflict some arbitrary number of wounds on a successful test, say five or so.

I'm liking all the ideas on this thread. It does seem like something that could be tacked onto the instant death rule, changing the name to miraculous survival or something.

I like it, and the extra dice for extra S above 2xT. Has anyone play tested it yet?

I think it would cause quite a few long term balancing issues, especially comparing races that have High str low AP blast weapons against races that dont..

How many examples of that are there? I'm just curious, I can't think of any....

I think I'd prefer it if S > T+2 automatically wounded the target, like D-classed weapons, and much like how if T > S+2 cannot wound at all.

So S4 vs T1 would automatically wound, S8 vs T3 would automatically wound, and S10 v T7- would automatically wound.

Skinnattittar wrote:How many examples of that are there? I'm just curious, I can't think of any....

just grab your BRB and look in the back, list all the races that dont have str 8+ or higher blast weapons (i would but i dont have mine handy)

Nurglitch wrote:I think I'd prefer it if S > T+2 automatically wounded the target, like D-classed weapons, and much like how if T > S+2 cannot wound at all.
So S4 vs T1 would automatically wound, S8 vs T3 would automatically wound, and S10 v T7- would automatically wound.

Well, firstly it is T > (S+3) does not wound, but I think I see what you are saying, and I am not against something similar. Though I think there would always be a chance of not being wounded, say striking a non-vital area like an arm or hand. For the more badass, higher toughness characters, getting an arm or hand blown off is all in a day's work. Even to a lowly grunt, there is a chance they will fight on. I just do not like the idea of automatically wounding a character, chance should always be involved.

TopC wrote:

Skinnattittar wrote:How many examples of that are there? I'm just curious, I can't think of any....

just grab your BRB and look in the back, list all the races that dont have str 8+ or higher blast weapons (i would but i dont have mine handy)

!!!? ?!!!
Do your own homework. I don't know of any weapons as you previously described ([High Strength and low Armor Piercing]). The closest are S6-7 with AP4 (which is a moderate AP) but I think a few S8 with moderate AP. I already did mine.

Skinnattittar wrote:How many examples of that are there? I'm just curious, I can't think of any....Do your own homework. I don't know of any weapons as you previously described ([High Strength and low Armor Piercing]). The closest are S6-7 with AP4 (which is a moderate AP) but I think a few S8 with moderate AP. I already did mine.

Dont be a prick, its technically YOUR homework. It is YOUR idea after all.

here i'll point you in a couple easy directions off the top of my head then since your lazy and tend to get rude rather quickly with no provocation in most the past threads ive gone and read on here.

Guard
Dark Eldar
Eldar
Chaos SM

*edit* just so were clear, till you went became rude, I was actually trying to help and be constructive to your idea.

If S > T+3, then damage automatic.
If S = T+3, then 2+
If S = T+2, then 2+
If S = T+1, then 3+
If S = T, then 4+
If S = T-1, then 5+
If S = T-2, then 6+
If S = T-3, then 6+
If S < T-3, then no damage possible.

This has a pleasant symmetry.

Moreover, there are certain weapons that will kill you even if they don't hit anywhere vital thanks to hydrostatic shock and other physiological effects. Some weapons don't even need to hit, they just need to go off in the same general area, and I'm not just talking high explosives - the EMP of stuff like Plasma weapons should be enough to kill unprotected humans with a near miss.

Remember also that weapons in Warhammer 40k don't necessarily kill (except for weapons causing Instant Death), but disable, and dismemberment is certainly disabling. Having your nervous system instantly combust, or your skin burn off, or your armour fused solid by heat, all of these things should count as a Wound in the Warhammer sense of the term.

Turst humor, my apologies. However you made the accusation, it is your subject to defend. I have my small red Rulebook, which has the same synopsis sections. Guard don't have anything that fits the standards you set out ([high S and low AP]), Dark Eldar might, but they have an ancient codex and I still do not think they do. Eldar might as well, but I still don't think so, and Chaos Space Marines don't as far as my knowledge. So please, enlighten us, for I don't think any races have anything that fills your rather vague criteria. In fact, I will say that there are NO weapons above S7 with AP<1 and make YOU do some homework.

As for my general demeanor, I do not prescribe to the "touchy feelly" mode of conversation where bad statements go without attack. Bad logic is no excuse for poor decisions/ideas. If you feel I am cruel or rude, wait until you get out into the real world where things are unforgiving, wait until you live where the world itself does not readily forgive small lapses and forfeit claiming your life or limb! I do appologise if I tend to offend, it is not my general intention, and when it is, I make that abundantly clear, usually by outright/clearly stating in one form or another "[I mean to offend you]" and I rarely do so!

Skinnattittar wrote:Turst humor, my apologies. However you made the accusation, it is your subject to defend. I have my small red Rulebook, which has the same synopsis sections. Guard don't have anything that fits the standards you set out ([high S and low AP]), Dark Eldar might, but they have an ancient codex and I still do not think they do. Eldar might as well, but I still don't think so, and Chaos Space Marines don't as far as my knowledge. So please, enlighten us, for I don't think any races have anything that fills your rather vague criteria. In fact, I will say that there are NO weapons above S7 with AP<1 and make YOU do some homework.

As for my general demeanor, I do not prescribe to the "touchy feelly" mode of conversation where bad statements go without attack. Bad logic is no excuse for poor decisions/ideas. If you feel I am cruel or rude, wait until you get out into the real world where things are unforgiving, wait until you live where the world itself does not readily forgive small lapses and forfeit claiming your life or limb! I do appologise if I tend to offend, it is not my general intention, and when it is, I make that abundantly clear, usually by outright/clearly stating in one form or another "[I mean to offend you]" and I rarely do so!

I was deployed to Iraq twice (wounded twice) I have no doubts that the world at large is actually not concerned for anything other than iteself, as such it will chew up and spit out anything that gets in its way. watch your own back. So yes I know, but when someone is trying to help you, you dont attack them thats just bad juju.

Demolisher, large blast
cant htink of the other guard weapon..it fires lots of the small blast templates that are plasma?

@ Nurglitch :

I do not disagree with what you are intending (though EMP, unless extraordinarily powerful, has no effect on humans), though there are far many more factors than you are considering. Remember, humans are not the only adversaries. Many are deamonic, or deamonically empowered, others are not even human and their physiology may be differentially resilient, others still are not even organic or mammalian. So comparisons for those reasons become extravagantly complex. But that is not the purpose here.

But no matter, those issues aside, I simply do not think that chance may be removed, as there is always the possibility of survival and continuing the to fight. I think I have mentioned it earlier, that there are many cases of a normally fatal circumstance resulting in only superficial effect. I, for example, have met more than one fellow with a scar on their scalp from where a bullet, somehow, managed to deflect off their skull, zip around under the skin, and exit through the other side of their head. Granted, they all immediately sought medical assistance once they realized their injury (one gentleman, during Vietnam, said he ran around like that for several hours before he found a medic). But 99% of the time, a bullet to the head is deadly. But they survived, if not fought on.

Skinnattittar:

Daemons are well-represented by their inherent Invulnerable saves, other stuff by their Toughness or Armour saving throws.

However, while a bullet to the head may not necessarily be fatal (an iron bar through the frontal lobe is not necessarily fatal...), a 120mm high explosive shell always is.

There's plenty in 40k to help characters survive high powered weapons, well beyond the incredible lenience of the To Wound chart, such as the aforementioned Armour, high Toughness, Invulnerable, Feel No Pain, etc. If anything there's too much randomness that doesn't contribute to the game or move it along.

As usual your proposal adds nothing to the game while increasing its complication. Such an increase in complication might be borne if your suggestion contributed anything, but it does not. My counter-proposal, by contrast, simplifies the game, increases the utility of high strength weapons against soft targets, and better defines the payouff tables defining the utility of target selection as a result of that simplification indexed with increased utility.