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I have read different people state that GW allows a certain percentage of a model to be another company's product, and that percentage varies depending on who is telling it. But while I was reading GW's IP policy, I noticed this little nugget:

Conversions

Conversions are a major aspect of the hobby, although in intellectual property terms, they also constitute a major infringement. However, we are certainly not about to stop people making cool conversions of our products, although, there are certain things to keep in mind:

Please do not combine our intellectual properties with IP owned by any third parties. Your conversions should be one-time, unique masterpieces of hobby goodness. Do not create a production run of conversions for sale. Whilst infringing our IP, this is also simply not hobby.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=&pIndex=3&aId=3900002&start=4

So if I am reading this correctly, while converting existing models using only GW materials is okay, using another company's "bits", such as Pig Iron Heads, on GW models is prohibited? Is that really what that say? Or am I missing something?

Technically its prohibited , but some will allow it because... leniency i guess?

I think that is utterly slowed. So if there is some anal GW rep at a tournament or something they can just go and pull the Pig Iron heads off your Cadians if they want?

Lord_Mortis wrote:I think that is utterly slowed. So if there is some anal GW rep at a tournament or something they can just go and pull the Pig Iron heads off your Cadians if they want?

Nono , even if they " want " to , they still wont. They have an image to keep after all.
Im sure they have a clear list of rules telling if you if they'll allow it or not so you can prepare.
If it is against the set rules however ( meaning you were informed but still went against it ) , they might not allow you to field them or disqualify you ( worst case scenario i guess )

Wait wait wait, quick question.

So, if I went to a GW hobby center or GW Run-Event, if I brought an Avatar of War model, would I get kicked out? ( In this case, the fat goblin which counts as Grom)

Cryonicleech wrote:Wait wait wait, quick question.

So, if I went to a GW hobby center or GW Run-Event, if I brought an Avatar of War model, would I get kicked out? ( In this case, the fat goblin which counts as Grom)

Doubt it , if they are smart , they'll come up with very clever insults to how ugly avatar models are , and how superior GW products are .
It'll serve as embarrassment for the one that brought it + serves as warning to others .

However.. If GW allow people to field $10 toys in their hobby center / events , that will certainly encourage others to find cheaper alternatives.
Or even other products that are more superior than GW products.
Either way it will lead to lower sales and ultimately take a bite out of GW's profit + their product integrity.

You can expect them to ask you to put it away... although thats not a very noticable thing... But theres been a few times a friend has brought his ultraforge greater wardemon and was told to put it away... Its understandable though... your sort of promoting another company in a GW store...

From what I understand...

If you buy a model kit, assemble and paint it, your final result is a derivative work, I think, but it's also clearly the intended purpose of the model kit. Regardless of how big anyone's backlog of unassembled figures gets, the whole point of buying the figures is to assemble and paint them so the end result must be an authorized use. Even if you assemble it incorrectly, or combine it with any number of extraneous parts, you're still just assembling and painting it, right? So it would be reasonable to assume it was still an authorized use of the product.

So if you buy two different model kits and then build something other than the instructions describe, is that suddenly an unauthorized derivative work? They're both kits which are purchased for the purpose of assembling and painting, and all you're doing is introducing new parts to both kits, right? But then you have GW's official IP policy which asks that a person not combine their parts with other people's parts...

Whether or not the final product is an unauthorized derivative work is a matter of law to which you're not going to get a legitimate answer without finding a lawyer and or a court of law to settle the matter. Either way, I've never heard anyone complain about receiving a cease and desist letter from GW for combining their figures with someone else's parts. Unless you're planning on mass producing derivative works (a.k.a. assembling and/or painting an army) and make it worth GW's while to involve a lawyer by either selling those figures or doing something obnoxiously attention grabbing, it's unlikely that anyone will ever care enough to get the matter settled in a court of law.

On the other hand, can GW refuse to let you use a model they don't like in the Golden Daemon contest, or at a GW tournament? Sure, but they can do that just by saying that any models used have to abide by their IP policy. That doesn't prove anything about whether that policy has any bearing in any other setting.

Then again, I'm not a lawyer and probably a terrible painter, so what do I know?

Edit: I may be confusing 'authorized use' with 'intended use' above, but it's roughly the same argument, and I'm tired.

Lord_Mortis wrote:Please do not combine our intellectual properties with IP owned by any third parties. Your conversions should be one-time, unique masterpieces of hobby goodness. Do not create a production run of conversions for sale. Whilst infringing our IP, this is also simply not hobby.

This is so that the third party IP owners mentioned don't sue GW if pictures of the conversions show up.

solkan wrote:On the other hand, can GW refuse to let you use a model they don't like in the Golden Daemon contest, or at a GW tournament? Sure, but they can do that just by saying that any models used have to abide by their IP policy. That doesn't prove anything about whether that policy has any bearing in any other setting.

Solkan , i apologize for asking you this because you arnt exactly the person i was going to ask ( but the person i asked refuses to answer me )
so rest assured im asking only because i want your opinion .

-There are many many people that plays in GW battle bunker and GW tournies that are told they cant use other company's product . Do you believe us when we tell you this?

-Not everyone is told they cant use other products , thus some are allowed. I dont know , 80% / 75%/ 70% ( of what? total display? does that include base? either way its vague )
you believe this too right?

-Thus some people that gets the "permission" or the "green light" may want to do an army wide conversion project that expends their time , effort , and money .
And months later to be told by a manager or an organizer or perhaps events in another location . "no you cant use them"

How is one supposed to feel / react to all that effort dismissed?

it's marginally better than the [PP] alternative of ''you may only bring/use/enter the models that we sell directly'' though, isn't it? I mean, I understand that people should have a degree of artistic freedom, but there are worse directions a company could go, right?
further, I doubt [hope? perhaps too blindly...] that if you had a Space Marine whose only deviation from that sold by GW was a head sprue from Pig Iron [which I love, but that's not the topic] nobody would be reporting you to the IP police.

Disclaimer: I don't go to [m]any sanctioned tourneys, so I imagine the atmosphere could be significantly different from my bubble world of everybody's happy just to play?

I think warhammer is a game , and the main purpose if for "everyone" to have fun ,
or enjoy a fun environment.
But the competitive nature , or sometimes elitism in human sort of makes it really hard to enjoy a "game" now days.

LunaHound wrote:-Thus some people that gets the "permission" or the "green light" may want to do an army wide conversion project that expends their time , effort , and money .
And months later to be told by a manager or an organizer or perhaps events in another location . "no you cant use them"

And that is one of the main reasons I don't participate in tournaments and such these days. I've been playing for almost 20 years and in the "old days" using another companies parts or miniatures in a game of Fantasy or 40K wasn't really a big deal. I heavily convert my armies, and if I find an interesting bit from another company that I want to use in my conversions, I'm going to use it. If I tried using my army in GW sanctioned events now, I'm sure I would be told that I couldn't use some of my minis, and I am not going to buy GW minis that have nothing in common with the theme of my army simply to be able to play in a tournament. I will stick to the friendly games at my local non-GW FLGS.

sorry, Luna, I did not mean to take any credibility from your comments. My angle was simply that GW can at least acknowledge a certain degree of artistic freedom in their intellectual property, I mean, they must know that is a significant part of the hobby, which is why they have ''counts-as'' rules...
Of course, any company has to protect its bottom line, but individual modellers custom-tailoring an army for personal use hardly jeapordizes GW's ability to make a profit, I hope?
Now, I admit, I live in the fantasy world where nobody does anything to the intentional harm of another person [or corporation, in this case], but I still feel that GW is less concerned with the individual who swaps out Space Marine heads with Pig Iron sprues to ''personalize'' his/her own army & is moreso worried about the blatant scammers who are moulding & re-selling ''SM Terminator'' [or what have you] sprues to capitalize on the Games Workshop/Citadel brand...

Again, I haven't been around long enough to experience the ''sanctioned tournament'' atmosphere, but with regard to Golden Daemon awards, I could understand a little more restriction, as the point of those competitions is unique from the gameplay-oriented competitions...however, in every codex I have purchased, there are blatant conversions which have placed in said competitions.

By the simple fact that folks are still using these ''conversions'' to utilize the 40k [or WHFB] ruleset, I mean, they've got to be promoting the game & also purchasing Codices. To me, the argument is similar to pirated video games [which I personally do not condone, but would rather not open that can...] where at least the usage of portions of your IP is a free form of advertising.

I apologize, because at this point I've had a bit to drink & may be making no sense whatsoever. Please bear that in mind when pointing out the foolishness of my opinions!

radical bob wrote:sorry, Luna, I did not mean to take any credibility from your comments. My angle was simply that GW can at least acknowledge a certain degree of artistic freedom in their intellectual property, I mean, they must know that is a significant part of the hobby, which is why they have ''counts-as'' rules...
Of course, any company has to protect its bottom line, but individual modellers custom-tailoring an army for personal use hardly jeapordizes GW's ability to make a profit, I hope?
Now, I admit, I live in the fantasy world where nobody does anything to the intentional harm of another person [or corporation, in this case], but I still feel that GW is less concerned with the individual who swaps out Space Marine heads with Pig Iron sprues [which I love, fwiw] to ''personalize'' his/her own army & is moreso worried about the blatant scammers who are moulding & re-selling ''SM Terminator'' [or what have you] sprues to capitalize on the Games Workshop/Citadel brand...

Again, I haven't been around long enough to experience the ''sanctioned tournament'' atmosphere, but with regard to Golden Daemon awards, I could understand a little more restriction, as the point of those competitions is unique from the gameplay-oriented competitions...however, in every codex I have purchased, there are blatant conversions which have placed in said competitions.

By the simple fact that folks are still using these ''conversions'' to utilize the 40k [or WHFB] ruleset, I mean, they've got to be promoting the game & also purchasing Codices. To me, the argument is similar to pirated video games [which I personally do not condone, but would rather not open that can...] where at least the usage of portions of your IP is a free form of advertising.

I apologize, because at this point I've had a bit to drink & may be making no sense whatsoever. Please bear that in mind when pointing out the foolishness of my opinions!

Nono please dont apologize >< my post must have been badly worded if you felt i was looking for apology o_o ( so i apologize to you instead! )
Your opinions and reasoning makes perfect sense , i never said it didnt. I think the whole issue here isnt your or mine opinion at all.
I think the issue or frustration came from the lack of a GW solid guide line ( concrete enough ) to make sure it doesnt matter which GW event you played
or which manager you talked to , ok means ok , and no means no.

LunaHound wrote:

solkan wrote:On the other hand, can GW refuse to let you use a model they don't like in the Golden Daemon contest, or at a GW tournament? Sure, but they can do that just by saying that any models used have to abide by their IP policy. That doesn't prove anything about whether that policy has any bearing in any other setting.

Solkan , i apologize for asking you this because you arnt exactly the person i was going to ask ( but the person i asked refuses to answer me )
so rest assured im asking only because i want your opinion .

-There are many many people that plays in GW battle bunker and GW tournies that are told they cant use other company's product . Do you believe us when we tell you this?

One of the friendly local game stores stays open late on club nights for everyone except for the Star Trek card game guys. The owner doesn't do the Star Trek guys any favors because they're not buying their cards from his store. (They can't, but that's a whole different problem...) This is entirely within the store owner's rights, and to my knowledge no one holds a grudge over this decision.

If GW puts up a sign banning all red miniatures in their store, they can do that and they can get away with it since their store is private property. If GW says that only miniatures which conform to their IP policies can be used in their store, they can do that, and it's even reasonable since the purpose of the GW store and the associated battle bunkers is to promote and sell GW figures.

If GW employees are being inconsistent in the application of store policies, that has nothing to do with GW's IP policy and everything to do with the management of the particular GW stores. But complaining about the existence of the IP policy is a bit like complaining that girls in low cut blouses get to cut ahead in lines for clubs when the rest of us have to stand in line--the club still has the right to make you wait in line even if the line is being run unfairly.

If a store is enforcing the policy inconsistently, or unfairly, complain about the store and complain to the management. I assume that a sufficiently motivated person could figure out the people above the local management and complain to them as well. That should at least give a person a chance to see the policy enforced more consistently.

Just to be clear are we talking about GW's right to set conditions on the models used in their own shops and tournaments?

Or, are we talking about GW's supposed right to stop anyone anywhere from modifying a GW model?

Kilkrazy wrote:Or, are we talking about GW's supposed right to stop anyone anywhere from modifying a GW model?

I was talking about this. Per their policy, you are not supposed to convert your models at all with another company's bits, which is just slowed.

Lord_Mortis wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:Or, are we talking about GW's supposed right to stop anyone anywhere from modifying a GW model?

I was talking about this. Per their policy, you are not supposed to convert your models at all with another company's bits, which is just slowed.

taking for granted you care what I think, I would propose that the verbatim text of the initial post is primarily in regard to re-selling of a custom made cast or homebrew run of current GW models for the financial gain of someone who is not Games Workshop, Inc. or its affiliates...I mean, there are thousands [okay, perhaps only hundreds] of models on Cool Mini Or Not that would violate this interpretation of ''Intellectual Property.'' However, from the perspective of GW I don't think it's detrimental to them if someone buys an ''official'' GW mini and then pays a 3rd party to paint/modify/etc. the model...GW has made their bottom-line from the initial sale of the piece.

Remember, I'm a philanthropic existentialist & my opinions are centered around that, but really, GW has nothing to gain from going after individuals who manipulate their IP for a non-commercial [read: profitable] gain. How many threads are there in the 40k & Fantasy fanfic section? Yet Ben Counter & Dan Abnett aren't in here all butt-hurt because someone jacked their newest idea for a plot-line?

Edit & re-edit: for such a pompous buffoon I sure do need to make a bunch of grammatical corrections!

GW do not contest your rights to convert you miniatures in any way you like, as pointed out in the first paragraph you quoted. I.e. As with everything else once you buy something it you may do with that particular item as you wish, so stick whatever heads on you wish.

What the second paragraph is referring to is that you can not change the head on your miniature, claim it to be different and then produce that "different" model for multiple sale, i.e recasting said conversion. This does not affect you rights to sell your converted one-off miniatures.

Obviously as pointed out by KK [and others], if GW or indeed a FLGS do not wish you to use a particular miniature on their premises/tournaments then they are perfectly entitled to prohibit its use. Be this for commercial or decency/taste or whatever. On this note, certain exceptions aside, GW allow conversions using other companies components as long as the majority of the conversion is either GW or an original sculpt.

Finally it is worth pointing out that GW’s company policy is not Law and should not be construed as such. It is a set of guide line that they wish you to follow and parameters of what they will look at from a legal point of view. Contravening these guidelines will not necessarily mean that GW will be after you, only that if you come to their attention, they have given fair warning of what they will tolerate regarding IP, copyright etc.

I've been wondering about this lately myself as I've been thinking of building an IG army but I want to use the Pig Iron heads and backpacks. There are no GW stores around here and generally it wouldn't be a problem but if I went to a RTT or another official event I am curious if it would be a problem.

Ahtman wrote:I've been wondering about this lately myself as I've been thinking of building an IG army but I want to use the Pig Iron heads and backpacks. There are no GW stores around here and generally it wouldn't be a problem but if I went to a RTT or another official event I am curious if it would be a problem.

I have a similar question myself too , but its GW head / arm / weapons /back pack , but other company's torso.

No problem at all as far as I know. There are no shortge of Pig iron IG out there being used.

@srehole individual employees aside GW allow you to convert your minis how you want so long as the majority/basis of each individual miniature (some have quoted 65-70% from certain tournament rules) are GW and you comply within social norms, so no naked jump-packing Sisters of the celestial phallus or Slaanesh Greater Daemons packing an un-hidden weapon if you take my meaning.

Interesting topic but not surprising.

After reading; Your conversions should be one-time, unique masterpieces of hobby goodness. Do not create a production run of conversions for sale. Whilst infringing our IP, this is also simply not hobby.

I read this as "We prefer you not to use non-GW models but if you do, please don't go selling them. This would make us sad".

If you make pornography out of plastic model parts and say "Here's my pornography", that's one thing. If you make pornography out of plastic model parts and say "Here's my Games Workshop daemon" without mentioning that it's an unauthorized use then GW's lawyers become involved because you're implying that you've made an authorized use of their copyrights and trademarks. It's all about trademark association and giving credit where credit is desired.

I assume the same principles hold true when dealing with more mundane derivative works...

notprop wrote:GW do not contest your rights to convert you miniatures in any way you like, as pointed out in the first paragraph you quoted. I.e. As with everything else once you buy something it you may do with that particular item as you wish, so stick whatever heads on you wish.

What the second paragraph is referring to is that you can not change the head on your miniature, claim it to be different and then produce that "different" model for multiple sale, i.e recasting said conversion. This does not affect you rights to sell your converted one-off miniatures.

That's not exactly right. The first paragraph says that while converting their miniatures may be an infringement of their IP, they are okay with it, with the exceptions they listed in paragraph 2. They do not say it is okay to convert them anyway you like, otherwise there would be no prohibition against using third party bits in your conversions of GW models.

1. Don't combine GW products with third party IP. (Ever. Not for personal at home use or any other use. )

2.Don't convert a model (either using GW parts or third party bits) and then make a production run of said conversion. (Because while you may have created a unique model using nothing but GW parts, all of the parts are still GW's IP, and you can't make a production run of that IP and sell it, because you aren't licensed to do so.)

That said, I don't think the GW police are going to seek out people who convert using 3rd party bits, but I still think it is silly. What it basically boils down to is that GW doesn't want Cadians with Pig Iron heads and someone asking where those different heads came from, and the owner of said models telling them "Pig Iron Miniatures," thus directing that person to another company instead of GW. It is silly because GW is making money off the Cadian box set, whether you use the heads in the box or not. I see GW of today much like the WWF of the 1980's, wanting everyone to believe they are the only show in town and that no other companies exist.

How do threads like this keep coming up?

It's legal guidelines. They have no problems, unofficially, with you using 3rd party model conversion kits. It's why they have the 70% GW rule.

However, do not expect them to go out of their way to show off your models at official GW events. And if you start, at an official GW event, doing things like "Oh, screw Forgeworld. I got these resin heads and packs from Pig Iron for waaay cheaper." or "Pft. Forget using standard GW pads on my Space Marines, I use Chapterhouse kits!)...
Expect to be asked to leave or disqualified for any form of painting contests.

Kanluwen wrote:How do threads like this keep coming up?

It's legal guidelines. They have no problems, unofficially, with you using 3rd party model conversion kits. It's why they have the 70% GW rule.

What 70% GW rule? There seems to be varying opinions on what is the correct percentage and none of it is official from one event to another.

Actually the 70% was what they ran in official events(even at my FLGS) as of 2007.

They might have upped the percentage since then, but still.
The premise behind it is that the model MUST be recognizably GW. As in, if you were to take their mail-order catalogs or a printout from the website--you'd be able to immediately recognize the basis of the model as a Cadian Guardsman or a Bestigor with weapons from a 3rd party.

Lord_Mortis wrote:That's not exactly right. The first paragraph says that while converting their miniatures may be an infringement of their IP, they are okay with it, with the exceptions they listed in paragraph 2. They do not say it is okay to convert them anyway you like, otherwise there would be no prohibition against using third party bits in your conversions of GW models.

1. Don't combine GW products with third party IP. (Ever. Not for personal at home use or any other use. )

2.Don't convert a model (either using GW parts or third party bits) and then make a production run of said conversion. (Because while you may have created a unique model using nothing but GW parts, all of the parts are still GW's IP, and you can't make a production run of that IP and sell it, because you aren't licensed to do so.)

That said, I don't think the GW police are going to seek out people who convert using 3rd party bits, but I still think it is silly. What it basically boils down to is that GW doesn't want Cadians with Pig Iron heads and someone asking where those different heads came from, and the owner of said models telling them "Pig Iron Miniatures," thus directing that person to another company instead of GW. It is silly because GW is making money off the Cadian box set, whether you use the heads in the box or not. I see GW of today much like the WWF of the 1980's, wanting everyone to believe they are the only show in town and that no other companies exist.

Um, surely you're only infringing Intellecutal Property is you claim that it's YOUR Intellectual Property. You can claim this by saying 'I made this myself' or bying a production run of the designs, you're claiming that you hold the RIGHTS to those designs, which is a breach of IP.

You can buy a Transformer toy, stick a Barbie head on it, and you're not breaching any IP. You only breach IP when you claim that the result is your IP or sell a run of the finished product at profit.

GW are well within their rights to disallow you using ANYTHING in their stores, but they can't touch the products you've paid money for and have chosen to assemble differently, and play with at home.