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Just curious why people seem to avoid this unit. I subbed him in for a couple of games and he was an absolute HOUSE! First game he came down and mopped up 2 squads of Space Marines that were coming up my flank. Second game he thumped a Dread and squad guarding an objective quite handily. What disadvantages am I missing here?

The only thing I can think of is needing a champion to pop out and somewhat limited movement while on the ground. I play with 4 troop units and a Sorceror for HQ so I always had flexibility where he came down. Seems like if you're running rhinos for your squads that he's unlikely to be stranded, even if he comes down on turn 2. Didn't come into play with those two games, but it seems like I can use Lash with the GD like with Berzerkers to bring in more prey.

He shredded anything he was in combat with. Units with no fist were mostly harmless, and when there was a powerfist I used the mooks from the sacrifice squad to help ablate the hits from the fist (New at the game, so perhaps I have wound allocations incorrect).

What am I missing? At 100 points (+ the 30-60 depending on the unit you sacrifice), he seems like a bargain.

He is a bargain, but he's tactically limiting and unreliable, which is why he's a bargain.

First off, his true cost is 130 points. That's in a CSM squad, with a non-upgraded champion. In other units, he'll run upwards of 135 (for a naked noise marine champion) to 170 (for a doom bolt Ksons Aspiring Sorcerer.

And, you plan for this, but that means leaving the ideally-possessed champion naked.

Tactically limiting: Let's say you're playing and the situation would generally see you wanting to reserve your whole army. Not so fast. If you do that, and the Greater Daemon decides to show up on turn 2 (50% odds), you lose him, because there's nothing for him to possess that started the turn on the table. If you start the one squad that has an upgraded champion on the table, but that champion takes a wound, same problem. So, giving your opponent only one thing to shoot at, probably not so good either.

Furthermore, he forces your hand a bit. He's slow on foot, so you need to try and advance the unit you want him to come in off of. Even if doing so isn't the best tactical move you could make. A rhino with the naked CSM squad inside probably doesn't want to advance towards units of khorne daemons backed by horrors - the odds that you lose the whole squad are too high.

As for unreliable - now you've been pigeonholed into playing a strategy that's fairly fixed. You advance the unit you want him to possess, and hope he shows up sooner than later. But, it's chaos, and he shows up later. In fact, he shows up so much later that your one naked champion is already dead. Not to fear, he'll take over your daemon prince instead (now you've spent 250 points for the model, and he's not looking like such a bargain anymore).

He's a lot of fun to play in a friendly game. When things go right, he has a lot of upside. I'm not sold on his advantage in a competitive setting. When things go wrong, he has a lot of downside too.

He works very well in a monster mash list for an extra MC/Big thing, and with a landraider's footprint, and being able to show up within' two inches of a hatch, he can get alot of distance on that initial drop.

One other side note, I believe he does not have eternal warrior, a minor issue but watch for insta death.

I used a greater Daemon the other day, and he absorbed the fire of two units of space marines and along with a Daemon Prince killed off most of a unit of space marines. In combination with another monstrous creature they make a good tag team, but by themselves they're vulnerable.

Norbu the Destroyer wrote:One other side note, I believe he does not have eternal warrior, a minor issue but watch for insta death.

Being T6 means he has a pretty short list of things that can even inflict instant death on him.

I agree but keep an eye out for the S.Taker or those Damn wraithguard. Force weapons as well. It is something that can be overlooked until your opponent says "take off your model he was insta killed" and you say " but hes a greater demo....ohh yeah thats right, crap" Highly unlikely but something to not forget.

I wonder this myself as a delivery unit like a 3 man bike squad means he could get into combat nearly anywhere you want him. And he is a beast once he gets his mits on something.

Well...bikers are expensive for the job.
Low model count means you must have some real generous terrain or good cover saves cause wounds will eventually have to be assigned to champ.

In addition, as soon as the GD comes in, you'd have to test for morale at the end of the movement phase as the squad has lost more than 25% of its members.

GD are bland...which is a humongo-nourmos reason why people are put off from using them.
In addition, everything that Redbeard said....I second it.

Random, reliance on other units to be in position, robbing a squad of an important model, slow after he gets in... 4++ is both a blessing and a curse.

Well, the points cost of the aspiring champion isn't the only cost. The use of a champ in a lot of list is invaluable.

In a list where a GD slots in perfectly, such as a short ranged/assault list that has more than 1 disposable AC, is where a GD is an absolute bargain.

I run one in my list. I find being forced into the scenarios Redbeard talks about are rare, especially if you tailor your list around having a Greater Daemon. You need to leave all your Champions naked, which can break some lists and players. He is a different kind of safety net than a Powerfisted Champion, which takes some getting used to.

In response to Redbeard's scenarios, I've found that having the Greater Daemon doesn't force me to advance. The only time you'd advance with him is when it would make tactical sense anyway (when you can't outshoot the enemy). In your scenarios, you suggest that you only have a single Champion you'd offer for him. In a list built with him, this is never the case. You'd also never advance a single Champion towards the enemy, as he'd just focus that Champion down and you'd be down whatever squad that was and the Greater Daemon would be forced to slog up the field, wasting time. That breaks the rule of target saturation: safety in numbers.

The real boon of the Greater Daemon is that it is tactically flexable. He Deepstrikes accurately 100% of the time, and is able to Assault afterwards. Your opponents can do little to stop this from occuring. I pick where the Greater Daemon will be, and my opponent can only guess it'll be one of three places. If I've played correctly, two of those three places will be lethal to him. It is very different from fighting a Daemon Prince: you know where he is at all times, and you can mitigate him.

If you run a host of Lesser Daemons along with him, like I do, you can take further advantage of this reliability. You can set up all sorts of flanking maneuvers and feints. For example, you can push up the center while having a Rhino advance up a far flank. He can shoot down the Rhino to try to keep the Deepstrikers from hitting his flank, or he can try and hammer away at the main force and hope he absorbes the Daemons. Either way, the Daemons will be hitting him.

I built a Khorne army for new player last summer.

It includes GD and 2 squads of lesser daemons. He has had success with both when he plays a tactically good game, which he must work on. List is built to be aggressive, moving towards enemy. Plan is for all to hit at same time.

Currently, he uses 3 PF Champs and Kharn to get GD in. Kharn is never an option

I used the list once against Orks and escaped with a minor win in an objective game.

Basically Darkhound is saying Greater Daemons are not frequent because they take more thought to get the most out of.

They need delivery, which involves an infantry squad with a champ.
If you go with redundant champs as a safety measure, that's another squad invovlved.

That tactical flexibility also includes limitations.
If you want that entry charge, you need to advance.
If you go with safety champs, you lose a bit of all-comer bite from the squad.

Maybe it's more of a personal taste issue of why GD's aren't used as much. Does not fulfil mandatory HQ, has no options, is Captain of the Lame and Bland team...

The only time I've seen GD's work well enough is when the base size was the size for the FW GUO...large base = longer charge reach, but that's iffy...

Use Greater Daemons, and Lesser Daemons, in conjunctions with a squad of Possessed with a Possessed Champion and an Icon. Stick the Possessed in a Rhino with Daemonic Possession, and hurl them at enemy so that when the Possessed Champion is Possessed by the Greater Daemon the Daemon'll have daemonic back-up.

[Insert obligatory: Yo dawg, I heard you like Possessed so we put Possessed in your Possessed so you can be Possessed while you Possess, or however it goes...]

I want to try him out in a Chaoszilla list. If you ram your entire army of big boys down the other guy's throat, with multiple options to summon him in, you can pack a really mean punch and overwhelm your opponent with big bruisers.

Reecius wrote:I want to try him out in a Chaoszilla list. If you ram your entire army of big boys down the other guy's throat, with multiple options to summon him in, you can pack a really mean punch and overwhelm your opponent with big bruisers.

It works really well in this configuration. I run this list and have alot of success:

2x Lash Princes with Wings
Greater Demon
2x Dreads with DCCW
2x Defilers
3x 8 Berzerkers with Champs and Rhinos

If I want to play more fluffy Khorne, I run Khorne Princes instead of the Lash Princes. Basically, everything advances in a wall of armor/big guy toughness, and then the rhinos run up directly behind. Usually, by the time the big stuff gets stuck in, the 'zerkers and GD can hop out of a rhino and start adding combat res. It works very well. The 'zerkers only attack things that get stuck on the big guys, and the big guys handle everything else. With Lash, running Dreads, and Fleeting Defilers, you are very quickly knocking on your opponent's doorstep, whith 3 rhinos full of 'zerkers and a Greater Demon right behind.

Nurglitch wrote:Use Greater Daemons, and Lesser Daemons, in conjunctions with a squad of Possessed with a Possessed Champion and an Icon. Stick the Possessed in a Rhino with Daemonic Possession, and hurl them at enemy so that when the Possessed Champion is Possessed by the Greater Daemon the Daemon'll have daemonic back-up.

[Insert obligatory: Yo dawg, I heard you like Possessed so we put Possessed in your Possessed so you can be Possessed while you Possess, or however it goes...]

And I also run Possessed in my army for this very reason. Man, Scout is almost always more lethal than Power Weapons.

In your opponents' lines turn 1. Booyah.
But. The only major wastage does come if you roll scouts on DoW deployment, otherwise, anything they roll is good in everything else.

Sanctjud wrote:In your opponents' lines turn 1. Booyah.
But. The only major wastage does come if you roll scouts on DoW deployment, otherwise, anything they roll is good in everything else.

Yeah, Scouts is wasted here, but it also isn't needed. You get to Deploy halfway up the board anyway, so just use Plague Marines or whatever in a Rhino and you're still golden.

Plus you're going to be deployed in a Rhino anyways, so when they arrive on the board they're going to be going full tilt to where-ever the action is.

I'm still meh about it though.
As fun/cool/thoughtful as it is.

It's bascially support/buffing a flank, basically a shock move to tie things up until others in the list get better positions...but I think this is more of a playstyle taste issue.

@whitedragon, that is a really similar list to one I was messing around with. I think it would be visually appealing and be fun to make as well.

Posting this because its the most fun you can have with the chaos codex.

Daemon Prince w/ Wings Mark of Khorne
Daemon Prince w/ Wings Mark of Khorne
Greater Daemon

Elites
Dreadnought
dreadnought
dreadnought
Trooops
who cares
BERRRRrrrrrSEEERRKKKERS
BERrrrseeeERKkKERS
BERRRSEEEERKKKERS

H. Support
Defiler
Defiler

Scream Blood for the Blood god and just bum rush.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Posting this because its the most fun you can have with the chaos codex.

Daemon Prince w/ Wings Mark of Khorne
Daemon Prince w/ Wings Mark of Khorne
Greater Daemon

Elites
Dreadnought
dreadnought
dreadnought
Trooops
who cares
BERRRRrrrrrSEEERRKKKERS
BERrrrseeeERKkKERS
BERRRSEEEERKKKERS

H. Support
Defiler
Defiler

Scream Blood for the Blood god and just bum rush.

I had no idea that GD were an unpopular choise with CSM!
He's awsome.
Remember, just because you have to replace a champion with a GD dosnt mean the champion cant do anything before he gets replaced.

I like the idea of running him with two daemon prince. At T6 with the 4+ invulnerable save he is quite resilient and can dish out a lot of punishment. He is very cheap for what you get as well even though you have to sacrifice a champion.

G

2x Lash Princes with Wings
Greater Demon
2x Dreads with DCCW
2x Defilers
3x 8 Berzerkers with Champs and Rhinos

Looks good. How many pts is this?

The GD is a bargain in larger pt games, say 2000 pts.

310 for DPs, GD and 2 dreads cost 300
Defilers are 300, Zerkers are 243 each...

1639 by my count.
_________________________

What other reasons can people come up with.
I'm in the boat that does not see them used often.

The only GD i've seen used was the FW Great Unclean one... just to benefit from a larger base.

310 for DPs, GD and 2 dreads cost 300
Defilers are 300, Zerkers are 243 each...

1639 by my count.

I'd prefer Obliterators instead of Defilers.
Dropping them you could include 5 Obliterators.

I like oblits too, but I was just adding up Whitedragon's List...

My list is 1750 points, and also has a Predator in it to eat up the remaining points. I found that the predator was always able to sit back and shoot at things since everyone worries about all the other big stuff.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/254025.page

The first post is my 1750 list.

Swapping the defilers for oblits kills the theme, dilutes the target saturation of big targets, and gives enemy small arms something to shoot at.