Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Don't know if this has ever been suggested before, but...

Stormfist...115 points
BS:4 FA: 13 SA:11 RA:10

Unit Type:
Vehicle (Tank)

Unit Compisition
1 Stormfist

Special Rules

Bolster Defenses

Wargear:

Thunderfire Cannon

Smoke Launchers

Searchlight

Options

May take two side Repair Sponsons...50 points

May take any of the following:
-a storm bolter...10 pts
-a hunter-killer missile
-a dozer blade...5 points
-extra armor...15 points

Repair Sponsons
WS:4 S:X I:1 A:4

Each repair sponson is armed with two servo-arms each, which, as long as one sponson is able to shoot, (i.e. not destroyed, or if the crew isn;t shaken/stunned) grants Blessing of the Omnisiah special rule to the Stormfist. If the Stormfist is assaulted, it is an WS:4 S:X I:1 A:4. May not launch assaults, and is treated as a non-walker vehicle in every other regard.

Design Notes:
Basically, I didn't feel that the regular Thunderfire cannon suited the Space Marine philosophy of lightning strikes, So I came up with the idea of mounting one in place of a regular turret on a Predator. Also, techmarines are either really slow if they have a servitor contingent, or don't have great odds to repair a vehicle if they took a bike, plus you can't take dedicated transports for them. So I wanted the Stormfist to also double as a repair tank if people wanted it to. I'll write some fluff when I feel like it, but for now, assume that it was invented by my DIY War Sovereigns chapter.

1)Those repair sponsons are a bit weird. They grant a rule? to whom?

Any given range? Base contact ( i think not, this is a vehicle so 1" gap..)?

2) thunderfire mount is where? hull or turret?

May i suggest to :

- no sponsons, instead tools to support an Techmarine/MotF with a nice bonus ( -1 or -2 ?).
- define radius of action. Does it work in base contact? Or 6", 12" ...?
- chassis from the vindicator perhaps? Keep the shield but replace the demolisher?
- transport capacity maybe?

Also you haven't declared a strength for it in CC, if has 4 attacks but no defined strength?

1hadhq wrote:1)Those repair sponsons are a bit weird. They grant a rule? to whom?

Any given range? Base contact ( i think not, this is a vehicle so 1" gap..)?

I figured it would be pretty obvious that the sponsons attached to the tank would grant the rule to the tank. Nevertheless, I edited my post to specify as such.

Also, if you look at the Blessing of the Omnissiah rule, (page 71 of the C:SM,) its clearly states it's a base-to base contact thing.

2) thunderfire mount is where? hull or turret?

Turret. Good point. I've specified that. I can't wait to actually build one of these...

May i suggest to :

- no sponsons, instead tools to support an Techmarine/MotF with a nice bonus ( -1 or -2 ?).

No. Blessing of the Omnissiah specifies that you have to shoot or try to repair. I think you should have to pay for the ability, to be concious of it, and because versatility comes at acost.

- define radius of action. Does it work in base contact? Or 6", 12" ...?

As I mentioned before, Blessing of the Omissiah rues indicate base-to-base contact.

- chassis from the vindicator perhaps? Keep the shield but replace the demolisher?

I see no logic for this. It's simply easier to turret mount the Thunderfire in place of a regular Predator turret.

- transport capacity maybe?

Not in a Rhino sized vehicle. The Thunderfire is at least as ammo-intensive as a Whirlwind, (which has no transport capacity) plus possible sponsons... I don;t see it working. Plus, it defeats the purpose of the vehicle, which is simply to have an alternate way of fielding the Thunderfire cannon.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

FlingitNow wrote:Also you haven't declared a strength for it in CC, if has 4 attacks but no defined strength?

It makes all its attacks using servo-arms, which are strength 8.

Seems totally broken. It's a Thunderfire Cannon with its only weakness removed, plus the ability to move and fire, and it costs only 25 points more than a real Thunderfire Cannon.

I'm sure I'm not blind, so where is the techmarine in your "datasheet" ?

BotO:
Cause some parts of this rule mention a techmarine and servoarms as granting bonuses to the techmarine....
so it doesnt matter if there servoarms. You need a techmarine.

Maybe add one?


Just to get this correctly:

a predator chassis with mounted thunderfire and added sponsons ( as servitor replacement ).
Becoming mobile and adding armor at +25 points.

and still this techmarine has to walk.....

Or is there none?

Its a real pain that vehicles don't have crews like they used to. There's a techmarine inside.

Just write a rule that when the vehicle is destroyed place a techmarine next to the vehicle as if he had been transported by it. Similar to how Chronus works.

There really isn't too much precedence for a tank with close combat weapons of any sort. I think trying to tie them to the servo arm rules is a little wayward. Instead follow the precedence of other vehicle upgrades, "Servo -crane": any enemy model in base contact is hit with a S8 on a roll of 5+; vehicles with in 6" may be repaired on a 4+. Niether ability maybe used on the same turn the thunderfire cannon fires.

The way you wrote it, the thunderfire cannon becomes almost unfair. Something should try to tweak down the survivability. "Weapon Construct: A weapon destroyed result is treated as a vehicle destroyed result."

It makes all its attacks using servo-arms, which are strength 8.

Cool just wasn't sure, thought that would be the case (was also thinking Servo arms worked like powerfists doubling strength, which of course they don't).

I don't think it should include the Techmarine he's crew and therefore dies with the machine.

The blessing of the omnissiah is essentially useless then if it only works base to base and the Tank can't move within 1" of a friendly tank without ramming it...

Seems totally broken. It's a Thunderfire Cannon with its only weakness removed, plus the ability to move and fire, and it costs only 25 points more than a real Thunderfire Cannon.

Surely it is 100 points more? Thunderfire cannon is 25 points this is 125. Given that a Thunderfire unit includes a Techmarine with Servo-arm which is 75 points, hence the cannon is only 25 (for a total of 100).

Points wise this seems about right. If anything it should be cheaper with the servo-arm option a fair bit more expensive:

Stormfist - 100 points
Repair Arms - 50 Points

That seems about right the repair arms essentially make it a super tough techmarine with the cannon and makes it more resillient to assault and able to pack a serious reply punch too. Though I'd probably make it armour 12 perhaps? Do people still strike rear armour in CC I assume so the way you wrote it if that is the case then front armour 13 should be fine.

Your math is a bit skewed on the value of a Thunderfire cannon. You are taking the value of the Techmarine and subtracting him from the unit value. This isn't really the case. If you have a techamarine by himself he is a techmarine and can do all the things he wants, the techmarine in a Thunderfire unit can not. He can operate the weapon or he can do his techmarine business, not both. Taking into consideration the fragile nature of the Thunderfire cannon, lets assume the Techmarine survives half the time, to function as a Techmarine without the cannon. That places his value abstractly between 99% and 50% of his value. In practical terms he is worth between 74pts and 38pts, but likely closer to the 38pts. So a thunderfire cannon is worth closer to 60pts, which seems much more appropriate for a weapon that is better than 4 missile launchers.

Your models more appropriate cost, assuming none of the changes others have proposed, is about 160 pts.

To justify it another way lets look at a vehicle comparable to what you'd be making. A griffon...75pts... 30% increase to BS = 100pts; closed top +20pts = 120pts... advantage due to having 3 ammo types +15=135... advantage of 4 smaller templates over a single ordanance +15 =150.

Those last two are hard to quantify, but they are significant. I think even conservatively you're looking at 140pts... more realistically 150pts.

To justify it another way lets look at a vehicle comparable to what you'd be making. A griffon...75pts..

Lets:

Whirlwind - 85 points, same BS 2 types of ammo versus 3 types, but Whirlwind has better AP, so maybe 5 points. Ord Versus 4 Blast not convinced it is much of a benefit if at all but OK we'll go 5 points, extra front armour another 15 points no indirect fire -5 points, no Ordanance -5 points. So yeah back at about 100, considering a Vindi is 115 and that is S10 AP2 (though granted shorter range). Again seems about right with this tank being half way between the 2.

Why did you add 5 points for it being 4 blasts and then subtract 5 for it not being ordnance? Not being ordnance is a double advantage, means it can move and shoot. On top of that 4 blasts cover 1.44 times the area an ordnance template does. That means in general a Thunderfire is 44% more lethal than a whirlwind, generally more accurate, yet costs only 1.33% that of a Whirlwind.

The advantage of 4 blast markers is that you can more accurately hit your target, if you hit you can gurantee the entire squad is covered as 4x 3" templates have more area than a single 5" template by about 50%. Because its a single weapon firing multiple heavy blasts, you place the first template, when your shot deviates you then place each successive templates in contact with the first then second then third, and roll to scatter from there, attempting to snake them back to your target or just covering a new target.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Let us play this as a more conservative estimate.

A rhino is 35 a whirlwind 85, that makes the missiles 50pts.

A thunderfire cannon as an artillery piece is about 60+/-5pts, depending on how you value the techmarine and how long he remains unused as such in a game. Including its better range, accuracy, blast area, and ammo variety.

A Predator is 60pts, 55pts if we hybothetically lop off its turret.

So on a plane no frills comparisson the thunderfire cannon on a predator chassis is 120pts.

But still there are unresolved issues. If you were to take into consideration the added gains of it now being move and shoot with 60" range and 1.44x ord blast, you'd probably bump the cost up a bit more. 15+ pts since its mobility improves its survivability.

So maybe the OP's point cost is reasonable at face value. I just think its out of character for an artillery piece to be moving around as this would be and it really is a bit of a game changer on the balancing side.

I've used thunderfire cannons several times, and they're well worth it with out being slapped on a vehicle. Its suppose to be artillery not a battle tank.

A Predator is 60pts, 55pts if we hybothetically lop off its turret.

So an autocannon is now only 5 points? Try 15 easy. You are back around the 100 mark.

Ordnance causes pinning and rolls 2 dice for armour pen. hence why not being ordnance is a disadvantage.

Ok I'll give you the area covered and it makes sense for the gun to be 10 points more than the Whirlwind in total. So we're at 105 points.

Yeah it was designed as artillery but as mentioned the SM army shouldn't really be one of artillery they are too rapid response for that. Granted you can chuck it in a drop Pod but after that it is still static, but hey you can still only move it 6" and fire and it will be much more difficult to keep in cover and will attract a lot of fire power in the way the normal thunderfire does due to it's size.

105 seems about right and keeps it in line with the army.

Twin-linked autocannons are 10pts on a dreadnought. Without the twin-linked it is 1/3 less effective... 7pts.

We are going from a unit that is very fragile to one entirely not fragile for only 5pts. The thunderfire cannon is AV10 where if a weapon destroyed result is rolled it is completely destroyed. That makes it effectively as survivable as an AV8 or AV9. Jumping upto AV13 with the gained mobility is more than a 75% increase to survivability

Twin-linked autocannons are 10pts on a dreadnought. Without the twin-linked it is 1/3 less effective... 7pts.

Now you are just making stuff up. It is 10 points + a Multimelta (worth 15 points). So the TL Autocannon is 25 points so 15 for the single is if anything an under estimate.

We are going from a unit that is very fragile to one entirely not fragile for only 5pts. The thunderfire cannon is AV10 where if a weapon destroyed result is rolled it is completely destroyed. That makes it effectively as survivable as an AV8 or AV9. Jumping upto AV13 with the gained mobility is more than a 75% increase to survivability

Not 5 points once again I have to point out that you get a techmarine worth 75 points. You yourself rated the weapon at 60 points so 105 is exactly the 75% more you are talking about...

I like the debate you two are having. I increased the cost of the servo arms and slightly decreased the cost of the tank.

One thing to throw in to your calculations is that unlike the Thunderfire Artillery piece, you don't get a bonus Techmarine when it dies. Thats one of the major advantages the Thunderfire has over the Stormfist.

Ignoring the thunderfire arguement for the time being. Is a battle tank really fluffy for a techmarine?

I wodl think a techmarine tank wouls be essentially a support transport for the techmarine. I like the idea of it have servoarms to help with repairs. Maybe say that, once the tank is in base contact with whatever it is tryign to repair, the techmarine jumps out to effect those repairs. The arms on the tank help him, therefore giving him +2 to any repai roll.


Maybe keep the pred chassis but go with the autocannon and add a couple of co-axial storm bolters to improve accuracy. Seems like the kind of mod a techmarine might do to his personal transport.

I like the debate you two are having. I increased the cost of the servo arms and slightly decreased the cost of the tank.

One thing to throw in to your calculations is that unlike the Thunderfire Artillery piece, you don't get a bonus Techmarine when it dies. Thats one of the major advantages the Thunderfire has over the Stormfist.

Yeah that's what I keep trying to tell him! That Techmarine is worth 75 points on his own and still gives you bolstered defences, blessing of the omnisiah etc as well as being a decent CC guy in artificer armour (with a Plasma and Flamer).

It looks pretty much perfect now I'm not going to argue over 10 points and it is now identically costed to the Vindicator which adds symmetry but is the Thunderfire really as good as a Demolisher cannon? Any who that looks pretty good now and pretty balanced.

But I'm asserting that a techmarine is moot. 50% of the time he will die before the cannon. The other 50% of the time he will not, but if you lose either one you no longer get the benefit of the cannon. Both Thunderfire and Techmarine are discounted due to you can never use both at the same time and the 50% of time you do get to use the Techmarine he's inconsequential. Given the fragile nature of the artillery and of a techmarine, the gain from going from an artillery unit to a battle tank is more significant the just an accumulation of points. The product is greater than the sum of its parts.

What you are producing is not fair. You field it in a single game and use it in a tactically sound way and people will cry foul.

Even at 100pts, I get my thunderfire cannons to each eliminate 200pts of infantry in each game. If I had the same weapon on a mobile armored vehicle I'd likely kill even more.

I field 2 thunderfire cannons in my standard list. Do either of you? It really doesn't sound like it.

The minute the unit is hit by anything significant its either 100% dead or 75% dead. 9/10 times your stuck with a techmarine that can be picked off and no where convenient enough to contribute by repairing the vehicles that drove ahead turns before.

The weakness of a thunderfire cannon is lack of survivability and lack of mobility. Your vehicle cures both for no real extra cost. Let put it this way, how much more would a devastator squad cost if they could move and shoot? Thats probably how much more a thunderfire should cost.

FlingitNow wrote:

Seems totally broken. It's a Thunderfire Cannon with its only weakness removed, plus the ability to move and fire, and it costs only 25 points more than a real Thunderfire Cannon.

Surely it is 100 points more? Thunderfire cannon is 25 points this is 125. Given that a Thunderfire unit includes a Techmarine with Servo-arm which is 75 points, hence the cannon is only 25 (for a total of 100).

Hahaha, that assumes Techmarines are worth their cost (protip: they aren't). Also, the Techmarine Gunner has a servo-harness, not a servo-arm.

I'm not sure where you're getting the 50% from from who dies first. You still get the bolster defences rule to make the Thundfire have a 3+ cover save even when it out in the open. You still get a servo-harnessed Techmarine should it get blown up. Yeah his blessing of the omnisiah is going to be pretty useless but he's still armed with all sorts of goodies and can go join another unit.

You talk about turning a Devastator squad into a tank. How about a devastator squad with 4 heavy bolters? 240 points or 2 Predators with Heavy bolter sponsons and 2 Autocannons - 170 points. Or a devastator squad with 4 lascannons compared to 2 preds with Las sponson (at a total of 240) and again you get 2 autocannons extra and again it is cheaper...

If you're that worried about it you could always make it move or fire. It can then move 12" when not firing to more inkeeping with the Space Marine ethos without the significant bump.

FlingitNow wrote:I'm not sure where you're getting the 50% from from who dies first. You still get the bolster defences rule to make the Thundfire have a 3+ cover save even when it out in the open. You still get a servo-harnessed Techmarine should it get blown up. Yeah his blessing of the omnisiah is going to be pretty useless but he's still armed with all sorts of goodies and can go join another unit.

Read the rule book. When shooting at an "Artillery" unit, roll to hit, then roll 1d6 to see which part of the unit is hit. On a 1-3 the artillery is hit on a 4-6 the crew is hit, resolve the hit accordingly.

Bolster defenses is no sure bet, it doesn't work the way you're saying. The improved cover save only applies to "ruined buildings" not to trees, barrels, debris, or types of area terrain. Only to "ruined buildings". I've played games where at the tournament no buildings were provided as terrain. S#!t creek.

A techmarine by himself is going to get picked off the second he steps out to shoot his backpack. What player in their right mine isn't going to go after the loan model, easy to kill model to secure their kill point. The fact he is a techmarine is moot right up until the cannon is destroyed. If you play it well, and never lose the cannon, it doesn't matter at all that he's a techmarine, and under your notion summation based point costs you paid for something you never really used. My notion is that its two units in one and you are paying for an average of the two units based on the average amount of use relative to the average length of game.

FlingitNow wrote:
If you're that worried about it you could always make it move or fire. It can then move 12" when not firing to more inkeeping with the Space Marine ethos without the significant bump.

Thats kinda what I've been poking at. That as it was written by the OP its all a bonus over the basic unitl. No real downside and only an upside.

When you take into consideration how many fewer weapons can take out a predator hull, its easy to see your odds of survival shoot up. A bolter volley is almost guranteed to take out a thunderfire cannon as opposed to the handful of strength 7 weapons, Str 5 on the sides. Those are both heavy weapons as opposed to basic troop weapons.

Read the rule book. When shooting at an "Artillery" unit, roll to hit, then roll 1d6 to see which part of the unit is hit. On a 1-3 the artillery is hit on a 4-6 the crew is hit, resolve the hit accordingly.

Oh I get it making stuff up again...

The artillery peice is hit on a 1-4 the crew only a 5-6 so most of the time the piece will go first. Hence leaving you with a Techmarine. Add to the fact that a bolter hit will take out the cannon 1 in 6 the Techmarine 1 in 12 for instance...

What player in their right mind isn't going to go after the loan model, easy to kill model to secure their kill point.

Firstly this is only relevant in KP missions and secondly they'd have had to destroy the cannon first so of course they're going to want to kill the techmarine to get their KP just like any other unit that is down to it's last man. Doesn't mean you have to gift wrap him. Blessing is of dubious value in anything but a firebase army anyway due to it's low chance of success without a unit of servitors in toe and limited use. So in that type of army the Techmarine should be of just as much use after the cannon is blown anyway. He's still a character with decent weaponry capable of IDing almost any IC without eternal warrior. He could still join a tac squad or devastator squad and add firepower and punch in CC which is more likely to be happening later in the game.

I think I've said everything I have to say, my point holds true even if the quality of my examples are not the best. The ultimate judge will be the player who lets you use the unit. I think they will take the unit to be broken and over powered at anything less than 120pts.

I think they will take the unit to be broken and over powered at anything less than 120pts.

Depends on the opponent I'd argue that all my points hold true without me having to make anything up. To be honest any new thing you come up with your opponents will want to be over priced as they'll see only the benefits and not the negatives it is natural.

aka_mythos wrote:Why did you add 5 points for it being 4 blasts and then subtract 5 for it not being ordnance? Not being ordnance is a double advantage, means it can move and shoot.

I know this thread is getting touchy already, but isn't this statement false? Thought "Ordnance" just meant you could only fire thatweapon.

I am not trying to point you out, aka. I am a newer player and this confused me. It seems there's always another rule buried somewhere.

To the OP - I am not a good judge of this as I am noob and don't feel expereinced enough to modify units just yet. However, I believe the Thunderfire cannon is awesome and the idea of mounting it to a hull sounds badass. I would say do what you have to point-wise to get another player to let you field this. I am sure the model is going to be rad.

Thought "Ordnance" just meant you could only fire thatweapon.

Ordnance bestows a number of benefits. You always hit Vehicles on side armour and you roll 2d6 for penetration taking the highest value and they cause pinning tests.

You can move and fire, though, right? That's what I was getting at.

You can move and fire, though, right? That's what I was getting at.

Not with ordnance weapons.

FlingitNow wrote:

You can move and fire, though, right? That's what I was getting at.

Not with ordnance weapons.

I see now. It is under "Vehicle Shooting" as opposed to "Ordnance." Sometimes I really despise the layout of the rulebook. I mean....it's one more sentence. Would it cost THAT much more to reprint it under the section of the weapon in question? Sometimes I feel like I have to type and print my own "quick rules" to keep in my 40k binder. I am considering doing this and refrencing page numbers for all the rules I print.

Since walkers count as "stationary" when moving, a Defiler can move and fire Battlecannon, right?

OP: Sorry for hijacking your thread, man. Last question - I promise!