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OK, so after a christmas break I looked at the last discussion thread I posted on (the 'Great Fan Pushback' of 2010) and saw how the thread gradually devolved without acheiving much. Mostly because when people complained it was all very vague.

So what is wrong with GW?

No one has a serious problem with their models or terrain kits. Hobby supplies are often cited as something that could be better, but to be fair very little could be described as poor quality (and tools and paints are hardly dificult to obtain from other firms). How much stuff costs is a source of complaints but is something that no-one would ever seriously expect the community to change - unless the 14-year-olds (or, more to the point, their parents) stage a huge boycott.

That leaves the following:

Quality of rules writing - clarity and consistency, lack of good FAQ's.
Lack of support for some armies/races, codex-creep massively overpowering others.
Removal of options for armies in favour of a 'one-size-fits-all' approach.
Lack of support (now virtually complete abandonment) for specialist games.

The question then becomes: what (if anything) can be done about it? Much of the discussion has revolved around ways of getting to the board or other senior management, but are we setting our sights a little too high? As all of the complaints centre on one department, could the change we want to see be effected by being more focussed?

I would suggest refining the complaints to a more specific set, with sensible (and preferably low-cost) solutions. Getting as many people as possible to sign up to a petition agreeing to such changes and requesting a meeting with a senior member of the design studio. Put forward the case and try and get an ally at that level - someone who can effect day-to-day change and who can ensure their superiors that its not internet ranting, but sensible people making a sincere case for positive change, with a concomitant upturn in business.

I don't know what people would think of such an approach, but I would me more than happy to 'take point' on any such initiative. Your thoughts welcome as always..

Quality of rules writing maybe the only reasonable option for complaint. I would sign up for that aspect.

Rules, their shifting business model, feedback to the fanbase and the fanbase itself from time to time.

Another petition/boycott/complaints thread? This is what, the fourth in the last month?

Sounds like a more focussed idea. I mean other big companies look to their consumer base for feedback, it just needs to be precise. This can be hard as it's something that people are passionate about, so you can usually spot more flaws because you actively follow how they progress their business/product. For example, I work in a major retailer at the weekend and it would take a lot for people to stop shopping there. However the company still insists on getting customer feedback regularly just to see if people are still enjoying the "shopping experience"(I feel dirty).
Executives and Shareholders only know so much, they really do need information from the people that are in the thick of it.

@Ketara -that's why I started a new one, all the others devolved into whining before coming to a concensus.

As Colossal Donkey has said, feedback needs to be precise, not nerdrage. If we could agree to a strategy with acheivable goals and then do it, its would be an acheivment, not a moan.

Honestly my problems with GW more stem here in the states as I have little knowledge of how they are abroad. My complaints is in the lack of Strong tourney play, and overall coverage. One of my favorite things was to see all the armies people took to the GTs, but it would seem they are taking a new avenue on all of this so I am reserved on opinon atm. I am seeing a ray of sun through the clouds when it comes to them. Price sucks but so does inflation. That is just a reality.

I'm sorry but I don't get what you mean by "strategy"; we can either buy their products or not.

If GW cared one wit about what their customers thought they wouldn't have the huge annoyance that is codex creep.

They provide a product that people buy regardless of their business model (kind of like a drug dealer).

I own stock in the company and they don't even listen to me, what makes you think they'll listen to customers?

Attitude and Relationship with customer/fan base. This is what pushed me 'over the edge' finally, the attacks on the community, the C&D fiasco and the continued dogged arrogance of a company that believes customers need it more than it needs them. The legal sledgehammer used instead of compromise and assistance, simply because it was easier. The company is fat and lazy and would desperately benefit from serious competition in the field.

Cost. It just does not equate any more. The price of 10 goldswords should (And always used to) be the price of 10 orcs or 10 halbadiers. The grotesque fact remains this:
Metal miniature costs were greatly increased to combat a 'tin crisis' that failed to really be a 'crisis', we were assured at the time that the price would be reduced once the fuss was over, this did not occur and the metals have continued along this elevated level ever since. The last financial report to the shareholders detailed the elasticity of the product price and the 'loyalty' of the customer to take this. Also that the plastic miniatures had reached the quality of the metal and that therefore the plastics should be moved to match the price of the metals (remember the metals? they're the ones that got elevated in price 'on a temporary basis' for the tin crisis).
The cost of a box of 30 celts from Warlord games (a detailed and quality product on par with GW's plastic minis) cost £17.
The cost of a box of 10 greatswords from Games Workshop costs £25.
Now supporters of GW will argue that GW's overheads are greater due to running shops on the highstreet, I wonder what that actually has to do with anything since the sheer volume of minis sold by GW is drastically higher that, say Warlord and Warlord are still making a healthy profit from those 30 minis at £17.

So, I put it to you dakkites, that the company is Arrogant, Aloof and Greedy. That is why I not longer contribute to their coffers.


All the issues over codex creep/neglect, FAQs, Rules etc can be cleaned up once they open their lines of communication and interaction back with the players.

The "problem" is that GW has made a deliberate choice to market to the so called 14 year olds. Most of us on Dakka are not part of their prime demographic. Most of our complaints (bad rules, no communication, lack of game support, lack of tournament support) pertain to a small percentage of their buying population.

In short, we are too expensive to maintain. We will buy or we won't. Does not matter to GW - they will continue to (successfully) market and sell to the more casual consumer.

Do you not have annual shareholders meetings? If so, why don't you get together with a group of other shareholders and make your opinions heard. Complaining by yourself just adds to the sea of noise.
If you have a group of people wanting the same thing and clearly stating it, then and only then you will have a chance of change. Otherwise it's just unfocussed rambling of the masses.
I don't really know how GW have operated throughout their existence, but it sounds like they weren't ready for the fanbase they currently have. Do the other smaller companies similar to GW work differently?

Rules, their shifting business model, feedback to the fanbase and the fanbase itself from time to time.

In a simple manner I second all said here. I think the real key is they have lost focus on their market and in doing so have made most of the old time gamers mad and still do not do much to reach out to new gamers. We have very little new blood coming into this hobby and a lot of old blood leaving. Cost is a major issue but support from GW for the community an towards their own game system/systems is very lack. They have done a major pull back from the community at large and people that they have put into place to "fix" the problems are either morons or yes men.

Colossal Donkey wrote:Do you not have annual shareholders meetings? If so, why don't you get together with a group of other shareholders and make your opinions heard. Complaining by yourself just adds to the sea of noise.
If you have a group of people wanting the same thing and clearly stating it, then and only then you will have a chance of change. Otherwise it's just unfocussed rambling of the masses.
I don't really know how GW have operated throughout their existence, but it sounds like they weren't ready for the fanbase they currently have. Do the other smaller companies similar to GW work differently?

Because, as was pointed out in the last direct action proposal thread, GW is owned (at least in part) by one of these large investment companies, who quite frankly, do not give a rat's arse about the views of minority shareholders.

This is going the way of the 'fan pushback' thread.

Until GW fail to satisfy their shareholders (and by the looks of it we will have to wait at least two years) and post unacceptable profits or losses GW will not be listening to any veterans or anyone who wants 'major' changes.

filbert wrote:

Colossal Donkey wrote:Do you not have annual shareholders meetings? If so, why don't you get together with a group of other shareholders and make your opinions heard. Complaining by yourself just adds to the sea of noise.
If you have a group of people wanting the same thing and clearly stating it, then and only then you will have a chance of change. Otherwise it's just unfocussed rambling of the masses.
I don't really know how GW have operated throughout their existence, but it sounds like they weren't ready for the fanbase they currently have. Do the other smaller companies similar to GW work differently?

Because, as was pointed out in the last direct action proposal thread, GW is owned (at least in part) by one of these large investment companies, who quite frankly, do not give a rat's arse about the views of minority shareholders.

Fair enough, but doesn't that just put emphasis on why people who care about the business from a hobby perspective and who own shares should band together and change their minority standing to a more noticeable one?

Colossal Donkey wrote:
Fair enough, but doesn't that just put emphasis on why people who care about the business from a hobby perspective and who own shares should band together and change their minority standing to a more noticeable one?

I agree, but in order to do that you are talking about spending significant sums of money as a group in order to even make a dent as a major shareholder. And even if you do, there is no guarantee that the head honchos will take any notice of you. Just because you have a holding (lets say for argument's sake you managed to get a group together comprising 5%) you aren't a majority shareholder and therefore you views are just as redundant as anyone else's.

Yes, this is going exactly the way of the fan pushback thread, which is what I (foolishly) hoped to avoid. I put forward a suggestion and it would be nice for a response on that topic, not the same tired old comments about price (which won't change) and how evil GW are.

Does anyone think that change can be effected on the text written by the design studio (something that would resolve a significant proportion of the problems with GW)? If so, how can this specific be acheived?

Chimera_Calvin wrote:
Does anyone think that change can be effected on the text written by the design studio (something that would resolve a significant proportion of the problems with GW)? If so, how can this specific be acheived?

In a word, no.

What you are trying to do is great, but the only problem is they way in which information is gathered. Currently it's like trying to herd cats that have eight legs and can climb all surfaces. Archanocats if you will. Try formulating a questionair, preferably with preset answers. Just limit what people can moan about and you will be on the right track.

GW aren't interested in our opinions because we are not their core market, their core market are the teenagers and younger players who are easily manipulated, people who read White Dwarf and when they see the latest miniature and are told that it's "really awesome" they feel compelled to buy it. They don't complain about codex creep, they simply buy into the newest, coolest and most powerful army.

They aren't interested in us because we do not represent their customer base. If people buy shares to become investors they are still not interested because you don't hold sufficent stock and in either case the majority shareholder is running the company the way they want to. They don't have to listen to your opinion so they don't. The company could probably be improved but obviously they don't see the effort involved in making it a true hobby company worth the increased profit.

The GW of old is dead, they are only interested in money as the bottom line. They are not a hobby company that is run "by hobbyists for hobbyists" like the many smaller friendlier companies out there, those days are long gone. White Dwarf isn't a hobby/gaming magazine, it hardly ever features the new and experimental rules as it used to in Chapter Approved, that kind of creative content has been removed because its cheaper, easier and allows more space for advertising which is all the magazine is. Things like Black Gobbo were shut down because they were a waste of staff time using their imaginations instead of advertising and selling stuff. They axed their own internet forums because they decided they were more effort than they were worth. There's this idea that if you encourage the hobby-ness of the hobby, encouraging the making of terrain and conversions and the like that it will increase sales. Maybe it will, but you won't convince the GW bosses of that, they see the optimal way to increase profit is by pursuing the pressure selling and advertising and codex creep of their products, not investing in the well being of the imaginative side of the hobby. And again, it must work to a degree because the company makes money and as has been made clear they don't want to listen to your opinion.

MeanGreenStompa has everything pegged with their prices. You can't fault them on the quality of their miniatures, or on their hobby supplies, but everything else is wrong with them, their cynical rules construction to sell their latest products as the best, the fiddle done with the tin price rise and plastics being adjusted to match. And you could even look at the manner their aggressive legal department has been let off the leash to target seemingly anyone they like without any consideration to their fanbase.

There's little point in a boycott, we can't summon the numbers to make a difference. The company aren't interested in our opinions, all you can do is choose to buy their product, or not. Maybe their business model will eventually unwravel when their younger core market simply can't meet the price increases and that's when they will see sense, only when they fall flat on their face. And by the time that happens the company will be in such a bad way it will likely be bought up by someone like Hasbro, who in honesty haven't done such a bad job with things like D&D.

Howard A Treesong wrote:GW aren't interested in our opinions because we are not their core market, their core market are the teenagers and younger players who are easily manipulated, people who read White Dwarf and when they see the latest miniature and are told that it's "really awesome" they feel compelled to buy it. They don't complain about codex creep, they simply buy into the newest, coolest and most powerful army.

They aren't interested in us because we do not represent their customer base. If people buy shares to become investors they are still not interested because you don't hold sufficent stock and in either case the majority shareholder is running the company the way they want to. They don't have to listen to your opinion so they don't. The company could probably be improved but obviously they don't see the effort involved in making it a true hobby company worth the increased profit.

The GW of old is dead, they are only interested in money as the bottom line. They are not a hobby company that is run "by hobbyists for hobbyists" like the many smaller friendlier companies out there, those days are long gone. White Dwarf isn't a hobby/gaming magazine, it hardly ever features the new and experimental rules as it used to in Chapter Approved, that kind of creative content has been removed because its cheaper, easier and allows more space for advertising which is all the magazine is. Things like Black Gobbo were shut down because they were a waste of staff time using their imaginations instead of advertising and selling stuff. They axed their own internet forums because they decided they were more effort than they were worth. There's this idea that if you encourage the hobby-ness of the hobby, encouraging the making of terrain and conversions and the like that it will increase sales. Maybe it will, but you won't convince the GW bosses of that, they see the optimal way to increase profit is by pursuing the pressure selling and advertising and codex creep of their products, not investing in the well being of the imaginative side of the hobby. And again, it must work to a degree because the company makes money and as has been made clear they don't want to listen to your opinion.

MeanGreenStompa has everything pegged with their prices. You can't fault them on the quality of their miniatures, or on their hobby supplies, but everything else is wrong with them, their cynical rules construction to sell their latest products as the best, the fiddle done with the tin price rise and plastics being adjusted to match. And you could even look at the manner their aggressive legal department has been let off the leash to target seemingly anyone they like without any consideration to their fanbase.

There's little point in a boycott, we can't summon the numbers to make a difference. The company aren't interested in our opinions, all you can do is choose to buy their product, or not. Maybe their business model will eventually unwravel when their younger core market simply can't meet the price increases and that's when they will see sense, only when they fall flat on their face. And by the time that happens the company will be in such a bad way it will likely be bought up by someone like Hasbro, who in honesty haven't done such a bad job with things like D&D.

This is so right I felt the need to quote it just for emphasis. Howard, you are spot on (and I believe you posted something similar in the Pushback thread). What makes it so frustrating is that as intelligent (by and large) GW customers or at least consumers of their game mechanics, we all know we get dumped on but have to sit there and take it knowing full well there is bugger all we can do about it. It makes me smile a little, because I know damn well that many other companies would fall flat on their arse if they tried this approach to customer service; it's only because GW hold a virtual monopoly that they get away with it.

What the problem with GW is, is a complex, and a discussion filled with flame bait. I think its down to personal choice, I also think it comes down to how you view the GW company. If you view them as a company, then the whole matter becomes rather tedious and obvious...someone has already stated, buy or do not....simple.

If, on the other hand you think of GW as being your best friend, uncle and neighbour...then the feeling of being betrayed and left out in the cold, becomes the obvious outcome of their business practices of the last few years.

For others, like me, the problem goes further, where I actually have grown to dislike the style of their products, comical, anatomically incorrect miniatures are not artistic for me, and the handling of their fluff to game mechanics and feel ratio is.....for me, appalling.....

So, what could be done about it.....actually, a lot could be done about it, and, I hasten to add, not by GW necessarily or the rabid ravings found on the internet forums....but, by the individual gamer.

When you think about it, table top wargamers are (generally speaking) very skilled people...at least those that take it seriously. In my opinion, tabel top wargamers need to take back their hobby! What I mean by this is, use the GW WH40K rule set as a basis....nothing more, use their I.P as a spring board, and then basically go out and sculpt, build and devise your own game system, that suits you and your group.

I can already hear the competition boys beating down my door with a Nay-say...well, my answer there is simple, if you drink from the tap, accept what comes out of it....if playing tornaments is your thing, then you need to play by the torney rules..end of discussion.....but sice when has this hobby been all about tornaments?

if people were to reduce, or even stop drinking from the swollen teet of GW, not only would their individual hobby experience increase, I think then you'd also get GW to listen to the drum beat of the hobby at large....but remember, this would only be a side-effect, nothing more....at the moment you take control of your own hobby, what GW thinks of reacts to is irrelevant.....

....I believe thats called freedom.

My major issue with GW games: Lack of customer support and communication.

The rules authors and codex writers allow customer questions to languish unanswered, for years in some cases.

The rules writers either are not allowed to or simply refuse to communicate directly with their customer base.

The company appears to not allow any sort of customer beta testing of their Codex releases or rules sets which further exacerbates the lack of feedback mechanisms.

The sloppy rules sets and "beer and pretzels" do not cater to a significant portion of the player base, at least from where I sit. While I don't want WAAC play styles, I would like to not have to scratch my head and dice off rules questions like "Can I Deff Rolla vehicles?" or "What happens to occupants in a destroyed vehicle if it's surrounded by enemy troops?"

Frankly, having a bit of disposable income I can stomach the prices IF it's meeting my needs. In it's current form, it's not.

I can go to the Spartan Games forums and ask the guys about rules questions, misformed ships or just product releases and they actually TALK TO ME. It's quite refreshing and really highlights the shortcomings of GW.

Chimera_Calvin wrote:Yes, this is going exactly the way of the fan pushback thread, which is what I (foolishly) hoped to avoid. I put forward a suggestion and it would be nice for a response on that topic, not the same tired old comments about price (which won't change) and how evil GW are.

Then I would humbly suggest the title of this thread is inappropriate.

You raise a question; 'What's wrong with GW?' and then in your first post generally decided that for you, it was the rules and that nothing could be done about the prices or the 'GW is ebil' thing.

So you took the two things that the majority posting in the previous thread had cited as the things they think are wrong and dismissed them, going on to talk about the inconsistancies in the rules and the development team's design etc.
Which is nice. I'm very much a supporter of the notion of equal rights for all armies and appropriate support along with the company taking on board the feedback about the rulesets. But frankly, for me, it is very far down the line in comparison to the two issues I described, which you dimissed as 'impossible to resolve'. Judging by how others have posted in the thread, others are also making the same mistake. I suggest you just rename this to something about making better rules and then move on with it.

Your describing the issues of attitude and cost as 'tired' comes across in a fairly negative light. As I said, just change the thread title.

More support for tournament scene, like scenarios, missions.

JJ is another downside of GW.

GW isn't going to change anything until they lose money in progressive years. They made a 5 Million pound profit last year and that = "evrything is ok" in the minds of the CEO and other managers.

GG

generalgrog wrote:GW isn't going to change anything until they lose money in progressive years. They made a 5 Million pound profit last year and that = "evrything is ok" in the minds of the CEO and other managers.

GG

Yeah but I'm about to sell my shares if they don't start paying a dividend again.

generalgrog wrote:GW isn't going to change anything until they lose money in progressive years. They made a 5 Million pound profit last year and that = "evrything is ok" in the minds of the CEO and other managers.

GG

5 million is a fairly slender profit tbh.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

generalgrog wrote:GW isn't going to change anything until they lose money in progressive years. They made a 5 Million pound profit last year and that = "evrything is ok" in the minds of the CEO and other managers.

GG

5 million is a fairly slender profit tbh.

Actually, that would depend on the size of the company!

What is wrong with gw rules?

I find them good and if they dont make faq's then... uh... just make house rules on them.