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Really.. just wondering what makes them powerful? How do they compare to hormagaunts.. how often will they get their shooting, is Onslaught worthwhile?, and how effective will their shooting be?

How does being charged/counter attack/furious charge work in conjunction?

Does the Poisoned upgrade ever become useful.. I cant imagine fighting much that monstrous and/or rending creatures couldn't handle.

How many is worthwhile? Minimum 10, 15, 20..

Lastly; Does the new term "Super Gant" include the Preferred Enemy buff too?

Also, on the same page but a different note; Ideal weapons to remove these pesky things? Bear in mind the possibility of MSU super gants with a Tervigon/s spawning Potential.

Any gaunt mob should start out at least 20 strong, 24 is better because it makes buying them easy. As far as effective I think for one point adrenal glands arent too hateful of an upgrade.

Hormagaunts go from hormacants to hormacans with the new upgrades. And termagaunts follow suit.

As far as getting rid of them I highly recommend the age old thunderfire tactic. Been killing gaunts with one of these since third edition.

Supergant [Soopah Gant]

-noun

Any unit of termagant that is directly supported by a Tervigon Troop choice in additional to any other supporting elements. This support greatly increases they potential for damage, resistance damage and leadership capabilities.

Edit: Heres a more in-depth summary of how Super Gants could work;

Hive Tyrant + Old adversary (6" Prefered enemy USR) + Biomorphs to suit taste. Armoured shell to compensate for ap3.

1-2x Tervigons + Catalyst, scything talons (I2 attacks are worthwhile vs TEQ and re-rolls are worthwhile vs vehicle) , Adrenal Glands & Toxin Sacs

1-3x Venomthropes

1-2x 10-30x Gaunts @ 5pt/model.

The reason for 2 tervigons over 1 is that you will be able to hide Venomthropes behind them more effectively, you have a stronger more resilient gant production & support base & you can "Spider-tank" both tervigons (or multiple gant squads) with FNP.

The Tyrant physically hides behind the tervigon/s benefiting from a 4+ coversave (doubling the amount of lascannons needed to kill it, for example), the Venomthrope brood sits front of the tyrant keeping its ability within range of everything in the formation also hiding behind the tervigons for cover (or potential total concealment). Two tervigons present a 12W T6 wall which benefits from a 5+ coversave (which then requires an extra 1/3 more wounding hits to kill it) and these support/spawn Termagants.

Lastly; The Termagants spread themselves out in front.. deep ranks help to keep the MC-Core safe from jump infantry, tank shocks and general assaults. They should remain within the tervigons with a couple of models snaking backward into this "MC-Core" to benefit from the Venomthrope & Tyrant abilities. Now your Termagants have 4+ poisoned attacks, the furious charge, the Preffered enemy and the Counter-assault USR's. This means on the charge they have re-rolls to hit, strike at I5, wound anything on a 4+ and re-rolls to wound vs T4 or lower. Its pretty potent, for the amount of models fieldable/spawnable.

(Basically, Just thought I'd give a definition before this starts to make the OP clear).

For the points of a tervigon I almost want to just use a squad of 30 termagaunts instead.

Then you must not understand the benefit of either unit nor the term super gaunt. Of course if you wanted a screening unit then 30x5pt gaunts are the cheapest way to do it but if you wanted to field troop-choices & have them able to fight effectively, then you may want to consider a gaunt + tervigon combo.

"gaunts"...Those are like Termagants, right?

The question is this. Are say 100 gaunts more effective then 30 and a tervigon

Note that even without a Tervigon, you can grab the same upgrades for a few points. 30 Termagants is 150 points. 30 upgraded Termagants with Adrenal Glands and Toxin Sacs are 210 points. A buffing Tervigon and 10 Termagants is 245 points.

In terms of raw numbers - 30 upgraded Termagants, on the charge, has 60 attacks at I5. Against marines, 30 will hit. S4 Poisoned means 22.5 will wound, which is 7.5 dead marines. Add in the 30 Fleshborer shots beforehand - which gives 15 hits, 7.5 wounds, and 2.5 more dead marines - that's a full dead marine squad. Now, you aren't likely to get all 30 in combat range without taking any casualties, of course, but that is still a remarkable lethality for what is still a relatively cheap unit of cannon fodder. Poison Sacs also keep them dangerous even to MCs, while Adrenal Glands gives them a chance to hurt the back armor of vehicles.

Note that 42 regular Termagants, for the same price, dishes out 3.5 wounds in shooting and 5 wounds in assault - but at I4, so they are taking loses in return. Against regular marines, probably not enough to lose combat - against anyone with more than 1 attack, and they are going to start seeing serious losses. That is what is nice about the upgraded Termagants - they can take down even relatively scary combat units (Berserkers, etc) before taking any hits themselves.

Now, the Tervigon and friends gives us less total gaunts - at least at first. Over the course of the game, we might get another 20 or so to bring us up to similar numbers. Plus a MC that can claim objectives. And now our gaunts potentially have Feel No Pain and Counterattack to both survive some shooting, and remain scary even when assaulted. That's the real problem they have compared to Hormagaunts - no Fleet means they will have a hard time getting the charge unless the opponents lets you. (Say, because he wants to walk up and rapid-fire into your ranks instead.) That's why it is hard to compare this to Hormagaunts - upgraded Hormagaunts, at 10 points each, are very deadly and have a good chance to get the charge... but are starting to get expensive enough you can't mass them in the same quantities.

The real strength of Super Gaunts, though, is when you have a solid core of the army built around them. A Tervigon, plus 30 basic Termagants, plus a Hive Tyrant giving Preferred Enemy, plus a Venomthrope or two for protection... suddenly they are not nearly as threatened by small arms fire (thanks to an always active cover save and Feel No Pain). Anyone charging them is in for a world of trouble, with difficult terrain, defensive grenades, countercharge. They become even scarier on the assault, when the Tyrant can hit enemies with Paroxysm so that Gaunts are hitting them on 3s and being hit on 5s. It might look pricy at ~600 points or so for the whole shebang, but the thing to keep in mind is that the Tervigon and Tyrant are threats in their own right, and the entire mass is a pretty durable, scary formation that can claim objectives.

Is it a required set-up for every army? Of course not - but can be a solid core for the right lists. Add in your anti-tank firepowers, and you can build in other forces to also take advantage of some of the buffs, and that seems a viable foundation for an army.

But it is a very specific style of play. It is hard to compare to Hormagaunts, since part of the hormagaunts strength is their speed at getting to the enemy. It is hard to compare to huge pools of 5 point Termagants used as screens, since the main purpose for them is to die and buy time for the rest of your force.

It's not difficult terrain from zoanthropes, it's DANGEROUS.

I grappled the shoggoth wrote:As far as getting rid of them I highly recommend the age old thunderfire tactic. Been killing gaunts with one of these since third edition.

?

I don't recall there being a thunderfire cannon in 3rd ed.

Have I been hitting the bong too hard?

There was no Thunderfire Cannon in the 3rd edition.

Speaking of super Termagants it would be amusing to see how they respond to Typhus, the Herald of Nurgle.

He casts Nurgle's Rot and Wind of Chaos automatically, so either there's lots of bugs around and they rot, or there's bugs in the way, and they drown in a stream of corruption that denies cover, armour, and Feel No Pain.

If they try to mob him, then he has Sv2+, Feel No Pain, and an I5 S4 Daemon Weapon with Poison. So no Feel No Pain for them in combat, he'll be striking at the same time if they charge, denying them armour, Feel No Pain, charging attack bonuses, and so on.

And, if they're protecting a tervigon, he can charge into it after he's done pasting the termagants, and instant kill it.

A use for poor old Typhus at last?

Typhus is going to become a monster with this new nid codex, assuming its actually good enough to shake up the meta game at all.

I think that lash and blissgivers will also make an even larger dent.

Nurglitch wrote:Speaking of super Termagants it would be amusing to see how they respond to Typhus, the Herald of Nurgle.

Thanks.. *snips*

As for Typhus well, either give him a taste of Zoey love or engage him with fearless gaunts. But yes, he is distinctly well suited to dealing with both tough MC's and larger hordes.

Yes, unfortunately due to piss poor rules design, Typhus is easy picking for anything Ap2 and S8.
Would eternal warrior have been THAT hard to add to him?

Anyway. Not the thread for this.

The latest Space Wolf FAQ has ammended the furious charge/countercharge thing. Now, you just get the extra attack, no extra strength and initiative.

Da Boss wrote:The latest Space Wolf FAQ has ammended the furious charge/countercharge thing. Now, you just get the extra attack, no extra strength and initiative.

I suspose its to make it less powerul. But why the 180 of the previous 2009 5th edition SW FAW games workship.. Why..?

People thought it was unbalanced.

Fetterkey wrote:People thought it was unbalanced.

It was delicious.

And the exeption or dileberate contradiction to the explicily laid out interaction in the BRB.

Supergaunts will murder any other troop choice if they get the assault off. They'll even murder most elite CC units.

Point for point, they'll even wipe a squad of Orks, which is really saying something.

But of course if you remove the tervigon then you will simultaneously kill off quite a few gants & remove their teeth & the tyrant cover/fnp shield. Tis the way to go.

If by quite a few, you mean four or five per brood.

Aduro wrote:If by quite a few, you mean four or five per brood.

Potentially causing massed LD6 morale checks, right? Or do those hits not count towards casualty based morale checks?

Razerous:

Good point. If the Tervigon was providing Synapse, then the Termagant units are in trouble.

sourclams wrote:Supergaunts will murder any other troop choice if they get the assault off. They'll even murder most elite CC units.

Point for point, they'll even wipe a squad of Orks, which is really saying something.

Bingo.

With the ruling on Counter Attack/Furious Charge set back to how it should be (doesn't work) the Supergants lose some steam because they aren't so ferocious when they get charged (still good, but not disgusting now). If they get the charge on something though, they bring an outrageous world of hurt. If a Tyrant/Old Adversary is nearby, they have Furious Charge, Poison and Preferred Enemy. With str4 on the charge they get to reroll all wounds against T4 or lower models because of poison (goodbye marines). Against anything else they never wound on worse than a 4+ so with a large amount of them you get enough attacks to drag down higher toughness stuff. I personally try to take a unit of 30 of them ad a Tervigon whenever possible. The sheer weight of attacks/wounds coming fromthis will eat things like Terminators/Marines/Orks/etc with relative ease.

5th edition, turning termaCANTs in to termaCANs. I like the gaunts. but theres a unit that are still the real super gaunts. They are called genestealers.

I think a unit of stealers with tenor sax are an excellent unit. With the re roll on wounds you get even more rending goodness. Buh Bye demon prince/ generic MC.

Im not at all saying that you should get rid of all your gaunts, but that I feel stealers are being overlooked in favor of super gaunts. Which are highly dependent on all kinds of supporting units.

I think of the gaunts as my front wave/screen, and the stealers as assassins.

Stealers are just a lot more expensive and barely more survivable against the majority of weapons that would shoot at them and/or gants. Also you won't be re-rolling wounds on Princes/MCs unless you're str5 for the Prince or str6 for the MCs. To get str5 you need Furious Charge which, in addition to the Toxin Sacs, makes them 21 point models with T4, 1 wound and a 5+ save. They're pretty easy to kill with normal weapons. You cn't get str6 so you can't reroll wounds against MCs that are T6+.

What Genestealers have going for them is infiltrate or outflank. These are cool dpeloyment options that can make a really big difference and makes the Stealers worth it. I wouldn't want to pay 21pts per stealer though because if they get caught out, they're going to get gunned down pretty easily.

I'll be trying out a couple of lists in the near future that are running between 1 and 3 units of Stealers. I think they're a good unit. I'm just not sure if it is really worth dumping lots of points into them.

Sorry completely forgot about re rolls only working on T4 or lower for stealers. Still makes them baller against marines.

And yes, the deployment options are the stealers greatest strength.

I played a game today, where I used 'super' termigaunts. I found that they are obscenely effective. I charged a unit of Khorne Bezerkers with a small squad, killed a number of them, then took minimal casualties due to FnP. The tervigon then spawned another group that assaulted into the gaps left by the bezerker kills, and it was perfect.

I would not equip genestealers with anything but the Broodlord. Inflitrate is all they need.

True, but you know something funny? Lucius the Eternal.

Get this:

Thirty Termagants attack (I'm assuming WS3 S3 T3 I4, A1) and somehow six get into base to base contact, while all thirty are within 2" of the ones in base to base contact.

He attacks first with A3+1, hitting on 3+, wounding on 3+. One dead Termagant. Whoopity-do.

Thanks to the Lash of Torment, the numbers the Termagants get is equal to [(29 x 2) - 5], so 53 attacks(!). With Furious Charge, Poison, and Preferred Enemy, we see 30 hits (18 initial hits + 12 re-rolled) on 5+. Wounding is 4+ re-rolled so 23 wounds (15 initial wounds + 8 re-rolled). That's 8 wounds on Lucius, 15 S4 hits on the Termagants ignoring armour and Feel No Pain, resulting in 10 dead Termagants.

It gets better. Suppose Lucius is the 'victim' of Paroxysm. He probably doesn't kill anything, while the Termagants get 3+ to hit with 54 attacks. That's 48 hits, 36 wounds, and 24 saves. So 12 wounds on Lucius, and 16 dead Termagants.

That's only 80pts of Termagant used to kill twice its points in Lucius the Eternal, if they can get themselves all in base to base contact while he's under Paroxysm.