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Does going flat out with a fast skimmer during your scout move, or turbo boosting during your scout move give you a cover save during the first turn?

idk RaW, but I've always played that it does.

I have as well, but Ive heard arguements of late that says that it doesnt. I was hoping for a way to find a decent ruling on it, besides the inat faq, since they are not always necessarily correct.

From the rulebook (Turbo-Boosters):

"move up to 24" in the movement phase. . ." - Most people claim you may turbo-boost as a scout move even though it is not technically the movement phase.

"In the following enemy shooting phase. . ."
So the way I read it is since Turn 1 - enemy shooting would be the following enemy shooting phase I say they get a save.

However, RaW, I see possible abuse to let you turbo boost as a scout & then move regular as you have still not hit "The following enemy shooting phase"

Turbo boost yes. Turbo boosting specifies that after utilizing the turbo boosters, the model gets a cover save "in the next enemy shooting phase."

skimmers moving flat out, no. Skimmers moving flat out requires that you moved flat out in your "last movement phase." Scout moves don't occur in the movement phase.

Falconlance wrote:Turbo boost yes. Turbo boosting specifies that after utilizing the turbo boosters, the model gets a cover save "in the next enemy shooting phase."

skimmers moving flat out, no. Skimmers moving flat out requires that you moved flat out in your "last movement phase." Scout moves don't occur in the movement phase.

How is turbo-boosting a yes then? Turbo-Boosters state "They may move up to 24" in the Movement Phase" - Emphasis mine. Since scout move is not Movement phase, then would it also be disallowed by tour logic?

Because it clearly states the save is applied in the next enemy shooting phase, while Skimmers need to have moved in a previous movement phase for it to have worked.

InquisitorFabius wrote:Because it clearly states the save is applied in the next enemy shooting phase, while Skimmers need to have moved in a previous movement phase for it to have worked.

Aha thanks, I agreed with the ruling just wanted to know the exact reason so I could justify it at my next game.

And just to clear up the 'can't boost during scouting cause it isn't movement' arguments, GW BRB faq:
Q. Can bikes Turbo Boost during their Scout
move?
A. Yes they now can, but remember that they
have to remain more than 12” away from the
enemy as they move.

So, to summarise:

Turbo-Boost = yes.
Flat Out = no.

Personally, I see no reason not to allow it for consistency's sake in friendly games.

So you're going off the Shooting at Skimmers rule? What if it was just a fast vehicle? Would you say that it couldn't move flat out?

I wouldn't argue that my opponent couldn't do it. I would go as far as saying he doesn't get the obscured cover save, because that's all the BRB says, but that's as far as I'd go.

Marshal_Gus wrote:So you're going off the Shooting at Skimmers rule? What if it was just a fast vehicle? Would you say that it couldn't move flat out?

I wouldn't argue that my opponent couldn't do it. I would go as far as saying he doesn't get the obscured cover save, because that's all the BRB says, but that's as far as I'd go.

The question isn't whether you can move flat out during a scout move, that's an obvious no-brainer, the question is whether moving flat out gives you the cover save or not.

My group does allow the cover save, but I'll admit that this is not legal by RAW.

Ahh...it's late and I misread. Thanks for the clarification.

I would allow it as RAI just because you have to adhere to a minimum distance away from the enemy while moving. If you didn't, then I would say that the scout move was way before the enemy got there so no cover. Since you do, it's a move right as the enemy is getting there so I think you should...Again, it's late so I doubt I made sense just then.

If a TO said no, then I wouldn't complain because of RAW.

I think the RaW has been covered by the above posts. Here's how I'd play it:

If you turboboost or move flatout in the scout move and I go first you get the cover save in either instance. If you go first you don't unless you again move flatout/turbo boost.

That seems the fairest way to me.

While I totally agree with the last post in terms of fairness...

"If you turboboost or move flatout in the scout move and I go first you get the cover save in either instance. If you go first you don't unless you again move flatout/turbo boost. "

...is there anything (RAW) that disallows turboboosting as a scout moving, going first, moving normally, and then claiming a coversave on your opponent's "next shooting phase"?

The RAI argument is obvious, I think.

...is there anything (RAW) that disallows turboboosting as a scout moving, going first, moving normally, and then claiming a coversave on your opponent's "next shooting phase"?

No there isn't technically bikes turbo boosting as their scout move get their cover save against the enemies first tuirn of shooting whether they go first or 2nd. Meaning you could turbo boost scout, move 12 fire, assault, break him, sweep and STILL claim a 3+ cover save from all his reprisals...

Whilst a fast skimmer moving 24" as a scout move would receive no cover save at all.

This is RaW I think my HYWPI is the actual rules, but it may be that you don't get a cover save in either incidence is correct but certainly I'm sure that the rules are the same for both though RaW is counter intuitive and a bit stupid in this case.

Someone just asked me this question the other day.

I stress the rule in the scout move section that states (from memory, no BRB at work) 'This [scout] movement is done exactly as if it were the movement phase'

Thus, if the scout movement is exactly the same as movement phase movement, then the preceding scout move before turn 1 begins would be like a preceding movement phase move. So, a flat out scouting skimmer would get the 4+ save during the top of round 1, thanks to its preceding scout/movment phase movement.

-sigh-

AS IF does not mean it is a Movement phase.

If it were a movement phase, there would be no need to add As if. Because it says As if, it is not a movement phase.

I dont know Gwar. Now I have the book in hand, so lets see.

Scouts: "...make a normal move. This is done exactly as in their movement phase, except that during this move, scouts must remain more than 12" away from any enemy."

Shooting at Skimmers: "A skimmer that is not immobilised and has moved flat out in its last movement phase counts as obscured."

The way I see it, if during the movement phase a vehicle moving flat out receives a cover save, then a vehicle making an 'identical to movement phase' flat out scout move, the identical to movement phase scout move must include the cover save, otherwise the two kinds of movement will not have exactly identical results. I parse the rule as:

"A skimmer that is not immobilised and has moved flat out (in its last movement phase--scout move is done exactly as in their movement phase) counts as obscured."

DevianID wrote:"A skimmer that is not immobilised and has moved flat out (in its last movement phase--scout move is done exactly as in their movement phase) counts as obscured."

No, that is not correct.

it is actually:
"A skimmer that is not immobilised and has moved flat out in its last movement phase counts as obscured."

A Scout move is NOT a movement phase. You just follow the rules for movement exactly as if it were one (so you take dangerous terrain tests, difficult terrain tests, must stay in coherency etc etc) but it is NOT a movement phase. If it were a movement phase, it would say it is a movement phase. Because it says "as if" a movement phase indicates that it is NOT a movement phase.

Here's a related question that I've seen discussed. Imperial Guard Camo netting gives the vehicle a +1 cover save if it did not move in the previous movement phase. In turn 1, as there was no previous movement phase, would the vehicle get the +1 to its cover save?

kadun wrote:Here's a related question that I've seen discussed. Imperial Guard Camo netting gives the vehicle a +1 cover save if it did not move in the previous movement phase. In turn 1, as there was no previous movement phase, would the vehicle get the +1 to its cover save?

No.

Gwar! wrote:

DevianID wrote:"A skimmer that is not immobilised and has moved flat out (in its last movement phase--scout move is done exactly as in their movement phase) counts as obscured."

No, that is not correct.

it is actually:
"A skimmer that is not immobilised and has moved flat out in its last movement phase counts as obscured."

A Scout move is NOT a movement phase. You just follow the rules for movement exactly as if it were one (so you take dangerous terrain tests, difficult terrain tests, must stay in coherency etc etc) but it is NOT a movement phase. If it were a movement phase, it would say it is a movement phase. Because it says "as if" a movement phase indicates that it is NOT a movement phase.

This is how we play it. The 'obscured' rule cannot happen until a Movement Phase has happened, a scout move is done before any 'phases' ever start and therefore doesn't qualify.

I agree with both of those gentlemen.

I'd say no to the camo net question, but I lean towards allowing the cover on the scout move because for the purposes of that scout model they are getting an "extra" movement phase. Especially since the rules state it is done exactly as in their movement phase, so it would make sense for the benefits of moving "as if" in a moving phase to apply.

Nenya97 wrote:The fast skimmer moves as if it was a movement phase. So when you go to shoot at it, it counts as going flat out as if it was a movement phase.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Im just at school and bored without my brb

Yes, you are wrong.

Scout Move != a Previous Movement Phase.

SMF asks the skimmer went Flat Out in "it's Previous Movement Phase".

Well, I guess that makes me ignorant because that makes no sense to me, it can move flat out with all penalties but no benefit because instead of adding a movement phase, they simplified it by just saying that a unit can move like amovement phase without the confusion of adding a new phase.

Also looked up the inat FAQ and it suggests that allowing the save is a clarification, it seems like the wording may be a bit off in the brb but the concept still holds that the vehicle went flat out in what counted as a mvement phase for that model. Saying that the vehicle does not get the save just seems like one is taking the uncertainty of "as if" to mean that it wasn't an actual movement phase, which it not technically but it counts as though it was.

Just saying that it doesn't count because scouts doesn't add an extra movement phase, it only counts as if it did, seems to be like saying that a large blast is different from a large template and that we have to have someone point out that they are the same thing. Just seems rediculous to me.

It's a hard concept to grasp that you can do something with all the drawbacks and with no advantages.

Nenya97 wrote:Well, I guess that makes me ignorant because that makes no sense to me,

My Long Fangs missing 1/3 of the time doesn't make sense to me either, considering they are, what, 400-500 year old Veterans who have spent literally EVERY SECOND of those 500 years training in the art of "blowing gak up" , but that's what the rules say. If you don't like it, tough.

DevianID wrote:Scouts: "...make a normal move. This is done exactly as in their movement phase, except that during this move, scouts must remain more than 12" away from any enemy."

Gwar, just a point of grammar and how it would affect RAW in the rule above:

The scouts move as if in their movement phase,

Would support your interpretation completely if the sentence ended there. However following the comma is the condition which specifies why it isn't exactly like the movement phase:

"...scouts must remain more then 12" away from any enemy."

So since the rule specifies the condition in which it isn't exactly like the movement phase, would not all other conditions of the movement phase then be applicable?

If it was a movement phase, it would say it is.

SMF says it must have moved Flat out in the previous Movement Phase. There was no previous Movement Phase. yes, it moved, following the rules as such, but there was NO MOVEMENT PHASE.

Thus, No save.