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I have a quick update for those of you interested in the situation that unfolded earlier this week between Lone Wolf Development and Privateer Press. In short, it turns out I used an incorrect word in a very critical way, which dramatically changed the message to something never intended. Unfortunately, I didn't realize that issue until a short while ago. A public acknowledgment of this, along with a full explanation, has now been posted on our forums, which can be found at the link below:
http://forums.wolflair.com/showthread.php?t=9753

Thanks, Rob

Your feeble attempts at damage control are amusing to me. Do continue.

We screwed up. We're acknowledging it. We're taking our lumps instead of trying to hide and hoping this just goes away. If we were going for "damage control", we wouldn't have to exert much energy to do a better job. Perhaps it appears feeble because it's not actually "damage control".

Your feeble attempts at damage control are amusing to me. Do continue.

They at least acknowledge the issue and state an apology. You have a problem with that?

As a customer of Lone Wolf Development I'd like to say...

Who cares what you said or they said. I like your product, and I'm not Privateer Press - it has nothing to do with me.



Keep up the good work!

I think it wasn't a mistake. I think your shoot has turned against you.

At least you've posted to correct any mistakes.

Thats more than GW ever did.

lord_blackfang wrote:Your feeble attempts at damage control are amusing to me. Do continue.

Stop being a drama queen.

LWD, good on you for admitting a misstep. Keep up the good work with Army builder.

Kudos. Honestly, address and explaining your error clearly and better yet, actually explaining how copyright applied in the situation as opposed to others that just wave around a C&D-hammer. The improper use thing is enlightening and reminds me of like, Kleenex instead of tissue and band-aid as opposed to self-adhesive bandage. Especially after the example of C&Dhammer 40k, avoiding heavy handed language to mitigate any flashbacks to GW letters may be a good idea.

LWD didn't admit their original claims were wrong, they "admitted" they made a typo that caused their claims to be misunderstood. Claims they previously staunchly defended on various forums. I guess they finally talked to that lawyer of theirs and he found them a nice loophole. After all, LWD is all about loopholes.

lord_blackfang wrote:Your feeble attempts at damage control are amusing to me. Do continue.

Lord Blackfang, this is a clear violation of Rule #1. Find a way to express yourself politely or further disciplinary action will be taken.

Thank you.

Please debate the actual points of the issue, rather than cast aspersions on either party.

I'm not sure the explination helps, or makes it worse.

I mean, "I'm not a lawyer, not even played on on TV, I'm a softwaree designer" and "I didnt run it by our lawyers" yet your sending out a quasi-legal letter out to company in a C&D manner.

You'd have been better off making a friendly phone call where you could have discussed it back and forth. Should that not have gotten you some results, well that IS what your lawyers are for.

You got the trademark results you were looking for, and some other stuff you ddint.

*shrug*

If only you'd used the wiki article about Trademarks, then you wouldn't have made this mistake. (for want of a schadenfreude Orkmoticon)

Lonewolfdevl wrote:First of all, I'm not a lawyer. I don't even pretend to play one on TV.

But you write letters like one (almost). You sent letters to a number of websites (not just blogs of army list building software and PP). Were their letters correct? Where's their apology? Why aren't they mentioned?

You sent out quite a few letters, PP were the only one higher in the food chain than you. I suspect there's been quite a change in the army[list] list building software requirements of PP gamers, no doubt this will become even more pronounced when the new edition of Tabletop Commander is released.

Ironically, at the bottom of your post you have used "sincerely" incorrectly.

You guys wonder why GW goesn't issue an apology when they make a mistake? Thank folks like Blackfang.

Sarge wrote:You guys wonder why GW goesn't issue an apology when they make a mistake? Thank folks like Blackfang.

You're being naïve as to why companies issue apologies.

Sarge wrote:You guys wonder why GW goesn't issue an apology when they make a mistake? Thank folks like Blackfang.

Because GW has nothing legal related to apologize about.

A hundred people with actual knowledge can come on here and explain how all of it works, and yet we keep seeing legal noobs who think they know better.

Meh.

PP are a bunch of tools for trading on LWD's "AB" brand.

LWD has to be like GW to protect it.

welcome to the world of grown-up business, everyone.

this apology addressed one of my two main issues; asking for them to remove programs using "army builder" in the title is completely appropriate and i have no problem with that. i would recommend also that you simply open an informal dialog first with gaming companies before you send off DIY legal letters. as you know, the gaming industry is not some megalithic organization so news of heavy handed tactics spreads fast.

JohnHwangDD wrote:PP are a bunch of tools for trading on LWD's "AB" brand.

That's massively inaccurate. That wasn't the dispute between PP and LWD.

JohnHwangDD wrote:welcome to the world of grown-up business, everyone.

If only.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Meh.

PP are a bunch of tools for trading on LWD's "AB" brand.

LWD has to be like GW to protect it.

welcome to the world of grown-up business, everyone.

PP doesn't have a list builder program. They approved the fan created ibodger.

I said it it the last thread, and I'll say it again. It's the height of hypocrisy to threaten PP for what you perceive to be infringement when you, as a business, make your money from infringing on GWs and PP's rights each and every single day. The fact that you even go forward and do such thing on your own, without legal advisors writing the request for you, was an amazingly bad decision.

I posted this before, and I'll post it again:

Let's be perfectly clear here.

You sell a product that provides your customers with a mechanism to access trademarked and/or copyright protected unit names, point values, stats, and additional related information. Your product supplies all of this information to customers- it is the most salient feature of your software. You don't own any of the IP that your program supplies. Other companies do, such as GW or PP. You outrightly claimed in a previous post that this was a good thing, as it saves gamers money from buying books that they might regret. That it allows them to figuratively "test drive" an army before committing to buying it.

Your program circumvents this, and provides protected information; information that you have no legal authority or right to distribute or sell without approval or a license. As I said before, it's the entire selling feature of your software. And yet, you consistently deny that this is the case, a position that is so disingenuous it begs the question of "are you outrightly lying?", or "are you that blind to what you do, conceptually, as a business?".

Twice so far in threads here on Dakka Dakka you have made the assertion that:

(in summary), "your business can't be violating another companies IP because these companies have never come at us (yet) and demanded that we desist in what we are doing. In fact, from my own personal perspective, we boost their sales, so we can't be violating their rights or doing wrong."

The ABSENCE of legal action against your company only shows us that the IP owners haven't devoted resources to closing you down yet. It doesn't disprove ANY of the points that I previously made, ie, that you sell software that allows people to access to IP that is not yours to sell and/or provide.

It's that hypocrisy that annoys many of the posters on these forums. You depend on and use IP that is not yours, then have the audacity to threaten these providers based on the notion that you don't like how separate 3rd parties speak about and refer to your products.

The fact that you don't recognize this hypocrisy only adds more annoyance to the situation among many wargamers. I understand that nobody wants to say "Hey, I'm a hypocrite, but I have a family to feed and I need to sell this software". I also understand that you probably can't openly acknowledge your own hypocrisy, as it would give companies like GW and PP an opening to say to the judge:

"Your honor, even the guy at Lone Wolf knows and has previously acknowledged that he openly steals from us". I get it- you won't ever say it openly. But come on, you know what you do as a business. You know you don't pay for any of their content. Don't be a jerk and threaten the very people you steal from and for whom your livelihood is dependent upon with this product. And then, don't follow up by acting as if you are some sort of victim and/or have been treated poorly by the people you just threatened. It is ridiculous.

Frankly, I find it very funny how PP decided to respond to you. The fact that you said you found it "severe" is odd, however. You threatened PP, and asked to have all references removed. You got exactly what you asked for- they removed all mention of you, forever. Like the old adage says, "be careful what you ask for, you just might get it."

I think all these C&D actions are getting out of hand, really... these are all small micro companies based o a hobby relying on word of mouth to spread their products and are acting like they have the ultimate super valious IP... me as a hobby person cant really be arsed to bother with all this load of shat.

I want cool miniatures thats it... so if you companies guys want to trade jabs and threats be my guest but just dont make all this public... It only drives people away form you, me included.

Bunker wrote:

lord_blackfang wrote:Your feeble attempts at damage control are amusing to me. Do continue.

Stop being a drama queen.

LWD, good on you for admitting a misstep. Keep up the good work with Army builder.

x2

It just makes me laugh. We complain when people don't apologize and then we nail them when we do.

My favorite thing about this is the fact that PP showed themselves to be the petty douche GW clones they are.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Meh.

PP are a bunch of tools for trading on LWD's "AB" brand.

LWD has to be like GW to protect it.

welcome to the world of grown-up business, everyone.

This is a simply put as it can be. Gaming isn't the same evnironment it was 20 or even 10 years ago.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

LittleLeadMen wrote:I said it it the last thread, and I'll say it again. It's the height of hypocrisy to threaten PP for what you perceive to be infringement when you, as a business, make your money from infringing on GWs and PP's rights each and every single day. The fact that you even go forward and do such thing on your own, without legal advisors writing the request for you, was an amazingly bad decision.

I posted this before, and I'll post it again:

Let's be perfectly clear here.

You sell a product that provides your customers with a mechanism to access trademarked and/or copyright protected unit names, point values, stats, and additional related information. Your product supplies all of this information to customers- it is the most salient feature of your software. You don't own any of the IP that your program supplies. Other companies do, such as GW or PP. You outrightly claimed in a previous post that this was a good thing, as it saves gamers money from buying books that they might regret. That it allows them to figuratively "test drive" an army before committing to buying it.

Your program circumvents this, and provides protected information; information that you have no legal authority or right to distribute or sell without approval or a license. As I said before, it's the entire selling feature of your software. And yet, you consistently deny that this is the case, a position that is so disingenuous it begs the question of "are you outrightly lying?", or "are you that blind to what you do, conceptually, as a business?".

Twice so far in threads here on Dakka Dakka you have made the assertion that:

(in summary), "your business can't be violating another companies IP because these companies have never come at us (yet) and demanded that we desist in what we are doing. In fact, from my own personal perspective, we boost their sales, so we can't be violating their rights or doing wrong."

The ABSENCE of legal action against your company only shows us that the IP owners haven't devoted resources to closing you down yet. It doesn't disprove ANY of the points that I previously made, ie, that you sell software that allows people to access to IP that is not yours to sell and/or provide.

It's that hypocrisy that annoys many of the posters on these forums. You depend on and use IP that is not yours, then have the audacity to threaten these providers based on the notion that you don't like how separate 3rd parties speak about and refer to your products.

The fact that you don't recognize this hypocrisy only adds more annoyance to the situation among many wargamers. I understand that nobody wants to say "Hey, I'm a hypocrite, but I have a family to feed and I need to sell this software". I also understand that you probably can't openly acknowledge your own hypocrisy, as it would give companies like GW and PP an opening to say to the judge:

"Your honor, even the guy at Lone Wolf knows and has previously acknowledged that he openly steals from us". I get it- you won't ever say it openly. But come on, you know what you do as a business. You know you don't pay for any of their content. Don't be a jerk and threaten the very people you steal from and for whom your livelihood is dependent upon with this product. And then, don't follow up by acting as if you are some sort of victim and/or have been treated poorly by the people you just threatened. It is ridiculous.

Frankly, I find it very funny how PP decided to respond to you. The fact that you said you found it "severe" is odd, however. You threatened PP, and asked to have all references removed. You got exactly what you asked for- they removed all mention of you, forever. Like the old adage says, "be careful what you ask for, you just might get it."

I laughed the first time you posted this.

Tell me, where do you get your indepth legal knowledge from?

Do you honestly think that if GW has the time to sink a silly little website about a silly little game they don't really sell anymore with a C&D that somehow their legal department cannot sink AB for the the YEARS & YEARS & YEARS it has been selling - in fact all THREE versions of the product it has sold.

Duh! Of-course they would have. You reasoning and you whole post are based on faulty logic.

Lone Wolf, you are fine.

Even if you got flak.

Since you have an army list builder - people will either buy your product, or they never would have in the first place anyways and they are just giving you flak.
I, personally don't give a crap what happened, and does it affect the quality of army builder?

Feth no.

Represents nothing.
Did you lose privateer buyers? maybe. But your demographics on them isn't as focused anyways - since there is forward kommander.
and etc.

So you cool.
Even though it is a mistake, you wanted to defend your business.
Just keep it up - let the trolling go away and just continue on with your business.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Meh.

PP are a bunch of tools for trading on LWD's "AB" brand.

LWD has to be like GW to protect it.

welcome to the world of grown-up business, everyone.

Definitely. Everyone thinks they are a business expert when the average person hasnt taken a single econ or business class.

And IMO the only bad thing to come out of this is how PP acted. I was disgusted, but not surprised. Just another reason for me to not personally own any of their products.

Sorry if I seem grumpy, but thats the breaks.

fullheadofhair wrote:
It just makes me laugh. We complain when people don't apologize and then we nail them when we do.

My favorite thing about this is the fact that PP showed themselves to be the petty douche GW clones they are.

My favorite thing about this is the sterling opportunity for smug bastards such as your esteemed self to get all high-and-mighty on us plebs, telling how Privateer Press are gak, how these forums are gak and how each and every person who doesn't see things your way is gak. Well tell me something, friend. Is it really worth it? Does grinding us little people under the heel of your demagoguery make you feel powerful? Do you draw enjoyment from pointing out the hollow lies so many of your fellow posters live by? Are you, in fact, the moral Ubermensch your strutting makes you out to be?

Or are you just one of us? We're all in the gutter, friend. But some of us seem to think they're better just because they're on top of the pile. But you're still there, friend. Your boots might be on my face, but your shoes are still filthy.

How's that for pretense? See, I tried really hard to write a post as obnoxious and vile as yours is, and I just couldn't do it. Because I'm a better man than you are. How about that?

I read all this flak and controversy, and it reminds me that while I have started playing Warmachine now, I've not gone over to LWD's lair to get the data files for Warmachine. Think I'll go ahead and do that now.

I'm still really trying to wrap my head around how AB is an "illegal" replacement for a codex?

I've used AB and all of the data files tell you to see the appropriate codex for certain rules. Seems to me that you can't play with JUST AB alone. You'll know the points costs but good luck playing with JUST a nicely pointed army list if you don't have all the rules memorized. Not to mention your opponent won't know them all or playing in a tournament the TO will REQUIRE you to have the proper codex.

GW hasn't come down on AB for encouraging people to use GW's IP illegally because AB DOES NOT allow that to happen. I know ALL my codeciies by heart but I'm not going to even ATTEMPT to play a stranger I don't know or play in a tournament without bringing the codex proper to my army. In the former it's just being "TFG" and in the latter you MUST have the proper codex with you. Unless you are someone with no life who sits down at their local store and reads codeciies all day (good luck getting away with loitering) you probably OWN the relevant codex to have had the time to memorize it to it's fullest so you probably don't need it 99% of the time. If someone showed up at a store to play me though and ONLY had an army list with and not their codex I wouldn't play them.

Good luck finding a game against someone when your opponent can't look something up in your codex if he/she/it thinks something about your army is "fishy" or "funny".


LWD did not need to issue an apology IMO. PP acted like asshats and so they brought all this upon themselves. It's a company defending it's property. It happens all the time except in the "real world" companies who step on others toes get sued, they don't get C&D's. If Intel copies in 90% exacting detail a CPU designed by AMD the lawyers at AMD don't send C&D's; they take them [Intel] to court and attempt to sue. At the very least they will send a C&D THREATENING to sue.

None of the letters sent by GW or LWD were "heavy handed". Nobody was threatened with a lawsuit, nobody was threatened with a FBI raid. Both companies said in a legal letter "please stop what you are doing, we don't like it". If PP and all the other sites owners and moderators want to act like children and throw a temper tantrum because they can't have their way than neither PP NOR GW should apologize.

I'm willing to bet when someone pirates movies, their house gets raided and they get arrested that the Federal Agents don't apologize when that person(s) starts to cry and throw a tantrum.

Not worth it.