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I have my elites filled up, so the question is what would be better for poping tanks (Including transports)


2 hivetyrants with HVC

2 Tyranofexen with R-cannons

2 hive tyrants with Devourer and HVC

Wariors with VC and death spitter led by Primes

Carnifexen in spore pod with bio-plasma and HVC


Thoughts?

Honestly, Im having this problem myself.

I have warriors with rending claws to help pick off some lone tanks.

I was thinking just a vanilla carnifex with 2 scy talons to get the rerolls on moving vehicles and to take away shots from my warriors.

Hive Tyrant is just too expensive for my list after playtesting.

Tyrannofexs are obviously REALLY expensive and I have a hard time sinking that many points in.


Im honestly confused about how Tyranids are supposed to deal with tanks. I shudder at the thought of playing eldar with a few wave serps...

Night Lords wrote:Im honestly confused about how Tyranids are supposed to deal with tanks. I shudder at the thought of playing eldar with a few wave serps...

I experienced this last weekend. I don't choose to draw conclusions yet, though, as I rather thoroughly messed up my own deployment, which let him kill the Zoanthropes and Hive Guard on turn 1.

But I'm building Tyrannofexes. I want to see how the phalanx of MCs works.

I'll do some math for you.

Lets say the HVC may scatter a total of two inches, and still hit it's target with the center of the blast marker. With BS 3 the chance of this happening is ~52%. With BS4 the chance is ~62%. So these are the to hit chances I will use.

I'll calculate for 100 rounds of shooting, how many glancing and penetrating hits you will get and how many vehicles destroyed this will account for. I do not consider the stacking of weapon destroyed and immobilized, only results of 5 and 6 on the damage chart. I'll do this for each weapon you asked about and I'll do it for armor 10, 12 and 14. I will assume no targets are open topped, so the HVC/VC will suffer. I'll round things pretty roughly, so assume one or max two digits precision.

Heavy venom cannon, BS3, -1 to damage chart
100 rounds = 100 shots = 52 hits
AV10 9 glance, 41 pen, 7.2 destroyed.
AV12 9 glance, 26 pen, 4.3 destroyed.
AV14 9 glance, 9 pen, 1.5 destroyed.

R-cannon, BS3
100 rounds = 200 shots = 100 hits
AV10 100 pen, 33 destroyed.
AV12 17 glance, 67 pen, 22 destroyed.
AV14 17 glance, 34 pen, 11 destroyed.

Devourer with Brainleech worms, BS3, AP - gives -1 on damage chart
100 rounds = 600 shots = 300 hits
AV10 50 glance, 100 pen, 17 destroyed
AV12 50 glance
AV14 -

Venom Cannon, BS4
100 rounds = 100 shots = 62 hits
AV10 10 glance, 21 pen, 4 destroyed
AV12 10 glance
AV14 -

Deathspitter, BS4
100 rounds = 300 shots = 200 hits
AV10 34 glance, 34 pen, 11 destroyed
AV12 -
AV14 -

Bio Plasma, BS3
100 rounds = 100 shots = 52 hits
AV10 9 glance, 26 pen, 9 destroyed
AV12 9 glance, 9 pen, 3 destroyed
AV14 -

That should help you choose. For reference, because I'm curious and to help you prioritize your elite slots:

Impaler Cannon, BS4
100 rounds = 200 shots = 133 hits
AV10 22glance, 89 pen, 30 destroyed
AV12 22 glance, 45 pen, 15 destroyed
AV14 22 glance

Zoanthrope Warp Lance, BS4
100 rounds = 92 passed psy-tests = 61 hits
AV10 61 pen, 20 destroyed
AV12 10 glance, 41 pen, 20 destroyed
AV14 10 glance, 41 pen, 20 destroyed

There is of course also the points costs for each unit to calculate, together with survivability, other uses etc etc. I am a bit curious as to how many points each vehicle destroyed would cost me with the different options, but I'd rather go build some more counts-as-hiveguards for my genestealer cult.

I hope this helped a bit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, maybe I should analze my results a bit. The HVC is really bad, the VC even worse. The Deathspitter and S6 Devourer is useful against AV10. Rupture cannon is really good, but costs a lot of points. The elite choices are the only really good and ecnomic anti tank choices.

Example: One T-fex with rupture cannon costs 265p. Six turns of undisturbed shooting at AV12 will cause 1.3 vehile destroyed. Shooting at AV14 it will cause 0.7 vehicle destroyed.
Four Zoanthropes costs 240p (and two elite slots) and will cause 0.8 vehicle destroyed each round of shooting, on every target with AV12 or more. So if they get one round of shooting at an AV14 vehicle, they are about even with a T-fex in destruction per points cost. If they shoot at AV12, half of them need to shoot two turns to break about even.

Isn't Warp Lance AP 1, which would give it a 50/50 chance to destroy a tank with a penetrating hit? Or am I misremember the vehicle damage table?

kestral wrote:Isn't Warp Lance AP 1, which would give it a 50/50 chance to destroy a tank with a penetrating hit? Or am I misremember the vehicle damage table?

No, you are perfectly right, I just forgot. Thanks for finding that, I'll adjust the tables above.

you rock mellon

Thank you Mellon for taking the time to do this.

Maybe consider Harpies, Hive Tyrants with Wings, and Shrikes as mobile anti-tank? The Harpies and the Hive Tyrants have their Monstrous Creature bonus on armour penetration, and the Shrikes could get Rending Claws. They have an 18" threat range.

sexiest_hero wrote:you rock mellon

kaiservonhugal wrote:Thank you Mellon for taking the time to do this.

Thank you. I'm glad to be of help. And I was pretty curious myself :-)

I don't really think the Harpy will do a very good job breaking tanks. It's TL-HVC does have around 77% chance to hit, so that's about 1.5 times the effect that a normal BS3 HVC will have, and it's flying makes it much easier to hit side armor. Unfortunately the -1 to damage tables is such a huge handicap. (about 1 AV10 destroyed after ten rounds of shooting...) Only two melee attacks makes it pretty unreliable against moving vehicles. If you want to hunt ork trukks however, the harpy is more then excellent. I think the other assault alternatives are better, especally against tanks that needs to remain stationary to be truly effective.

The thing with the Harpy for anti-tank is that it shouldn't need to do much more than stun/shake a tank with the HVC for long enough to get in close & rip it apart with those big MC close-combat attacks. So, I still think it could be a part of nids' solution to the tank problem -- not all of it, but part of it.

Good point Ian. Two MC-hits should be a threat to any vehicle. There are then two results on the damage table that would be very painful for the vehicle (3 and 5) wich greatly increases the effectivity of the Harpy HVC, if it is within 6". Sort of like a meltagun :-)

I was just struck by a question on rules interpretation: Assume my target vehicle moved over 6" it's last turn, in my shooting phase I manage to inflict a Crew Stunned result, and then I attack the vehicle in assault. Rules says "Attacking a vehicle that is immobilised or was stationary in its previous turn. - Automatic hit" As far as I can interpret RAW the vehicle is not "Immobilised" since it has not suffered that particular effect on the damage table. It might however be temporarily immobilised, since it cannot move any longer, and as such it may be hit more easily in assault. I can't remember how I have played this rule... Although I'm sure it must have come up several times. Maybe someone can share their view on things?

If a Crew - Stunned makes the vehicle easier to hit in the assault phase, then the Harpy can conside three of the effects on the damage table as more or less lethal.

Nope, a Stunned vehicle still counts as moving. If you want a fluff interpretation, the crew just ducked for cover and the tank is still rolling when the Harpy dives in to attack. It doesn't grind to a halt until the next Movement phase.

And you can take what, three Monsterous Creatures with Wings? And take three Trygons afterwards (points permitting).

BeRzErKeR wrote:Nope, a Stunned vehicle still counts as moving. If you want a fluff interpretation, the crew just ducked for cover and the tank is still rolling when the Harpy dives in to attack. It doesn't grind to a halt until the next Movement phase.

I was afraid that was the case. Thanks for sorting me out.

Nurglitch: Yes indeed, and 3 squads of zoeys/HGs. Harpies are FA. 170p each is a lot of points for T5 4W, but no anti tank comes cheap for tyranids :-/

I think that while the math is nice, the points costs are missing from the above.

If you look at 265 points x5 turns as your base for the r-cannon, compare everything else to this base point value.

So, some quick maths using more realistic numbers:
5 are cannon turns: av 10 = 1.67 dead av 12 = 1.1 dead av 14 = .56 dead, 1 turn of cc versus av 10 rear moving 6+ inches = .185 dead, versus av14 = .06 dead
5 spore pod dakka fex turns: av 10 = 2.5 dead av 12 = 7.5 glances only, 1 turn of cc versus av10 rear moving 6+ inches = .278 dead, versus av14 = .2 dead
Trygon assaulting av10 rear moving over 6 = .51 dead, versus av14 = .2 dead (.3 dead with adrenal)

6 rending raveners assaulting av10 rear moving over 6 = .5 dead

15 toxin stealers assaulting av10 rear moving over 6 = .417 dead

What this shows me is that, while the rupture cannon is indeed the best non-elite shooting attack for heavy armor, the dakkafex is better for light armor. In assault, the dakkafex is also better versus land raiders than stock trygons or tyrannofexes.

Also, 2 rounds of close combat versus av10 rear can equal or exceed any shooting option with a front armor of 12 or higher, and close combat with adrenal trygons or fexes is the fastest way to kill a land raider (again outside of elite choices)

So, in summary, for the most effective non-elite way to kill armor:
av 10 (shooting attacks only)--dakkafex in pod
av 10 rear but av 12 or higher front/side--close combat with stealers/rending ravs/fex/trygon.
Fastest way to kill av 14 all around--close combat with adrenal monstrous creatures, preferably with 2 sets of scything talons

Also, if you want to stop a vendetta/falcon/fireprism from shooting and you dont have elite shooters, the dakkafex or even dakka tyrant is your best bet, as you get ~9 chances to roll a 6, where as a rupture cannon only gets ~1 chance to roll a 2+. More dice=more reliable.

DevianID wrote:clever things

Very good analysis! I actually started to calculate the theoretical model of how many mutiples you had to buy of each alternative in order to cause a vehicle destroyed in one round of shooting, and how many points this would cost. This would give a sort effectivity index, cost/vehicle destroyed. I gave it up since I had a hard time evaluating the other effects of each choice, such as survivability, mobility and alternative uses, and some of the weapons where available from several sources with different costs. But you summed it up very nicely.

Thanks! I only considered the quickest, most efficient cc units as these are more likely to get into cc with vehicles, and you already covered that the HVC is not even in competition, which saved me some work.

The thing I have been discovering, and not liking, is that the adrenal trygon--not the best choice for nid cc--is perhaps the best non-eilte anti-everything vehicle killer for the points. Its 210, with built in mobility thanks to deepstrike and fleet, and even a piddly shooting attack. If only it could get cover (thing is huge!), or have better reserve rules (assault on deepstrike, or reserve tunnels that do something useful), or have an instant death style attack... as it stands, the beast is a turn 3 assault element that is only good versus select matchups. That is simply a turn too long versus most enemy armies, and not viable enough versus enough army builds. Thus I think I am stuck with 'stealers and potential outflanking troop tervigons for turn 2 assaulters that can kill vehicles.

Hmm, and I expect the trygon would not fare any better if deployed on table, rather than kept in resere.

A good thing about having assault based anti tank is that it increases greatly in effectivity on stationary/slow moving vehicles. So many IG tanks are juicy targets, eldar not so much. It pains me though, that I cannot engage a transported unit in assault the same turn that I broke open their transport by assault. In that regard a shooting can-opener is way more satisfying.

A trygon could get cover from a venomthrope unit...

Don't forget the Spore Pods. If you get a good position it will hit rear armour with 2 S6 shots. And it has the option of Venom Cannon, nice if you get a bad scatter. So another thing a dropped Dakkafex has going.

And no one has mentioned the Mawloc. While a single S6 hit against rear armour may not be much (it should have gotten the benefits of an MC attack, Cruddace probably thought it would be unbalanced) it's possible to hit more than one target. More importantly, you get to move vehicles out of their shooting lanes or into you own, or into terrain. Especially nice since all terrain counts as dangerous. And once in a while they can outright destroy what can't be moved away.

Until there are some GW FAQs however the Mawloc is too confusing to rely on in a competitive environment. For example, I can easily see a judge ruling that only a vehicle under the center hole is hit on S6, meaning you only hit one vehicle at a time.

Other judges have already said they will not let the Mawloc deepstrike onto enemy units, they must scatter there. So until there is a FAQ, the Mawloc is out of the question.

The thing about the T-fex is that it's actually likely to get 5 turns of shooting, as long as your list is built right. Dakkafeces in pods will get about...one. Genestealers will get one if you're lucky or your opponent is dumb. Raveners too.

DevianID wrote:Until there are some GW FAQs however the Mawloc is too confusing to rely on in a competitive environment. For example, I can easily see a judge ruling that only a vehicle under the center hole is hit on S6, meaning you only hit one vehicle at a time.

Other judges have already said they will not let the Mawloc deepstrike onto enemy units, they must scatter there. So until there is a FAQ, the Mawloc is out of the question.

Yeah, you need to pick up the phone and talk to your tournament organizer, pre-faq.

While I agree that the t-fex is likely to get 5 turns of shooting, this is mostly because many opponents will just ignore it and instead focus on units that are more threatening in 1-2 single phases than the t-fex is in the entire game.

So, if the above is true, then taking a t-fex simply makes target priority for your enemy much, much easier. You can not envelop the enemy with threats when using a t-fex army build in my opinion, unless you are playing 1k points. And in 1k points, almost everything from the nid book gets better.

At my lfgs, it's getting pretty mandatory for 2-3 tfexes and 6-9 hive guard.

It's the only real reliable anti-tank the nids have.

N.I.B. wrote:

DevianID wrote:Until there are some GW FAQs however the Mawloc is too confusing to rely on in a competitive environment. For example, I can easily see a judge ruling that only a vehicle under the center hole is hit on S6, meaning you only hit one vehicle at a time.

Other judges have already said they will not let the Mawloc deepstrike onto enemy units, they must scatter there. So until there is a FAQ, the Mawloc is out of the question.

Yeah, you need to pick up the phone and talk to your tournament organizer, pre-faq.

It's going to vary a lot from one tournament to another, and a mawloc is an expensive model that takes a lot of time to paint and that you want to do a good job on. So it would be kind of a waste to spend all that time painting up your 2 mawlocs and then find out they can't really crutch you along on anti-tank the way you wanted them to (or that you can't play in the tournament you wanted to because of how the judges rule). If I had any interest in a tyranid army, I'd hold off on building any mawlocs until after the FAQ.

But even if they can deepstrike under enemy vehicles, you're only going to hit more than one if your opponent is clueless enough (or is forced) to put them less than 5" from each other.

Flavius Infernus wrote:

N.I.B. wrote:

DevianID wrote:Until there are some GW FAQs however the Mawloc is too confusing to rely on in a competitive environment. For example, I can easily see a judge ruling that only a vehicle under the center hole is hit on S6, meaning you only hit one vehicle at a time.

Other judges have already said they will not let the Mawloc deepstrike onto enemy units, they must scatter there. So until there is a FAQ, the Mawloc is out of the question.

Yeah, you need to pick up the phone and talk to your tournament organizer, pre-faq.

It's going to vary a lot from one tournament to another, and a mawloc is an expensive model that takes a lot of time to paint and that you want to do a good job on. So it would be kind of a waste to spend all that time painting up your 2 mawlocs and then find out they can't really crutch you along on anti-tank the way you wanted them to (or that you can't play in the tournament you wanted to because of how the judges rule). If I had any interest in a tyranid army, I'd hold off on building any mawlocs until after the FAQ.

But even if they can deepstrike under enemy vehicles, you're only going to hit more than one if your opponent is clueless enough (or is forced) to put them less than 5" from each other.

Using the blast rules, the mawloc will wind up hitting one that will matter. If the center is off the hull, it's half strength.

The mawloc template isn't a "large blast" weapon and doesn't use normal blast rules. In fact it isn't a weapon at all the way it's written. The rule says (paraphrasing) that every model partly or fully under the template suffers a str6 hit, vehicles on the back armor.

Flavius Infernus wrote:The mawloc template isn't a "large blast" weapon and doesn't use normal blast rules. In fact it isn't a weapon at all the way it's written. The rule says (paraphrasing) that every model partly or fully under the template suffers a str6 hit, vehicles on the back armor.

Doesn't it say in it's description str6 ap2 blast? It doesn't matter if it's a large blast or just a blast. They all follow the same rules.