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After looking through numerous forums and the Nid codex itself my first question was how is anyone supposed to defeat all those T6 W3+ MCs?! Being a CSM general I thought of the Slaanesh Daemon Weapon that auto kills anything. Now I know that alot of people don't consider the Chaos Lord a viable option, esp with the power of DPs or Sorcs, but is this ability too powerful to be ignored?

The way I pictured my army was to take a Slaanesh Lord on bike with Daemon Weapon with a squad of Raptors with 2 Flamers. The lord can keep up with the Raptors and then when the opportunity arises he can detach from the unit and go solo against one of these guys. The flamers help clear out whatever guants are probably screening the MC, opening up a lane for the lord to assault through. SO what are your opinions? Not just this set up, but about the Slaanesh Loard w/ DW? Would it work, or is it just a waste?

I used to run a winged lord with the blissgiver paired with melta raptors.

It worked wonders.

It's not just Tyranid Monsterous Creature, but also stuff like Warriors, Shrikes, Raveners, Primes, etc. Then there's Ork Nobs, Tau Battlesuits, Eldar (I6 Lord), etc.

So do you think it would work well?

No, any other option is better. You're spending 165 points for a single task that it can't perform very well. If you don't get a lucky 6, or roll a 1 for your swings, you'll lose that 165 point investment, garunteed. And that's the task it's been built to do. A Sorcerer can be geared for any task and still perform the same role in a pinch. I'd rather spend the same 165 points on a Las Pred.

The sorcerer can't do S^&* when they need to take a Psychic test on 3D6 to use their force weapon, reguardless of Warptime. Just think of all the multiple wound models that a Tyranid army can feild? And with one blow you can wipe out 90-250 pts off the board.

I think the Blissgiver is amazing. It's risky, but it's very underrated.

It's not just the Blissgiver, but the I6 thanks to the Mark of Slaanesh. A Hive Tyrant without a Lash Whip is in serious danger, for example.

billie cant you get the same thing done with a lash sorcerer? he has a force weapon... and you can give him warp time.

If you use warptime to get the hits in, you cant make the test to cause insta death. Only Sorc that could use warptime and do that would be a Tzeentch one. And i'm pretty sure a sorc with warptime, MoT and a bike is more expensive. than the lord, don't have my dex in front of me tho.

Could always give the lord wings to help cut costs a little, yea you lose the extra toughness, but your still mobile enough to do the job you intended. My personal opinion is yea, it'd be useful to have against 'Nids. Can't be relied on to strike fear in your opponents heart, but would be great to see his face when his trygon folds like an old wallet in the first round of combat. The Slanneshi Lord wouldn't be good in a take all comers environment...but you could kit out the Tzeentch sorc to be more beastly and have this extra utility in your bag of tricks when you do face tyranids. Although the Sorc is more expensive with two powers, he could have more of a role then just "monster slayer". Plus with his 4 up invuln if he does have to take on a guy with lash whips, he has more of a chance to deliver his strikes.

oh true. good call.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
abaddon's pretty good at killing bugs... or anything else for that matter. the swarm lord might stand up to him, but thats it.

I agree that a slaanesh lord may not be best in an all-comers list, yet i haven't tried him out yet so idk. Yes a sorc has more abilities, but they are gonna cost more points to take if you're gonna kit them out to take MCs out. However, esp after playing against Eldar for awhile, taking a psychic test on 3D6 to insta kill isn't going to help. If this coice, ie the Slaan Lord, then what would be better at taking these thing out?

well if you're playing elves all the time the value of psychic powers is alot less. I'm fighting space wolves alot right now and somehow njal works his way into every list. so 3+ no power. I considered the lord with blissgiver to handle that same problem. havent tried it so i dont know if it would really work so well. it certainly doesnt get stopped by psychic defenses....

if you're looking for a build that can take on anyone but will work well against bugs specifically i'd consider 2 sorcerers with lash, 2 havocs with lascannons, and the rest noise marines with sonic weapons. this is a solid build ive tried many times. it's not A grade competitive but it can certainly hold its own, and will absolutely hose bugs.

Well, personal anecdote, so take it for what it's worth.

Today I played in a local tournament.

There were several Chaos and Nid players, including this exact matchup, and one all-Slaanesh Chaos player did have a Lord with a Blissgiver.

He charged into combat with a TMC, rolled a one, and got messily devoured.

Color me thoroughly unimpressed with the unit's performance.

While he does inflict ID, he has a whopping S4 meaning most of the units that you really want to OHKO you'll need a 6. Seems made of fail to me. If you want to murder MCs in droves you do have Abbadon in the book. He also strikes at I6 hits on 3s against everything but a Tyrant and wounds on 2's with re-rolls. Against Warriors or raveners he even does ID.

For some reason people see ID on a model with crappy S (Al'Rahem) and think it's good against MCs. If you can wound them it'll work out, but that's a pretty big "if" when you need 6's

Also, Typhus is a pretty solid MC killer as long as it can't ID him back. He strikes at I5, always wounds on 4's and can use his force weapon any turn. He could turn a Trygon inside out pretty easily.

Mastershake wrote:While he does inflict ID, he has a whopping S4 meaning most of the units that you really want to OHKO you'll need a 6. Seems made of fail to me. If you want to murder MCs in droves you do have Abbadon in the book. He also strikes at I6 hits on 3s against everything but a Tyrant and wounds on 2's with re-rolls. Against Warriors or raveners he even does ID.

For some reason people see ID on a model with crappy S (Al'Rahem) and think it's good against MCs. If you can wound them it'll work out, but that's a pretty big "if" when you need 6's

Also, Typhus is a pretty solid MC killer as long as it can't ID him back. He strikes at I5, always wounds on 4's and can use his force weapon any turn. He could turn a Trygon inside out pretty easily.

As alluded to above, the blissgiver has a specific target. It DESTROYS large numbers of troops and elites. That is what it is does and it does it well. Is it a silver bullet for everything? No. But it definitely has a place in some CSM lists.

It destroys troops that Chaos would likely have already destroyed in close combat regardless. The few exceptions would be Tyranid Warriors and footslogging Nobz/MANz, but even then we're talking about significantly less than one ID result per combat phase. He's much more efficient against Tyranid MC armies [than against other armies, which still isn't very] simply because of the large volume of multiple wound T6 models on the table, but when looking only at his offensive power, he's not that much more killy than Al'Rahem, and in general about even with Sicarius or Khan.

If Bliss Lord was a truly attractive meta-counter, I think by extension you'd also see more people talking about the three aforementioned models. The deafening silence tells me that while the Bliss Lord may now be a better option against this one matchup, he's still not a remarkably good option.

A Blissgiver Lord is still, well, a Chaos Lord with a power weapon, at minimum. Let's crunch some numbers, shall we?

1/6 of the time, the Chaos Lord trips over his own feet and falls on his sword. Oops!

The rest of the time, he gets an average of 4 extra attacks, for a total of 8 (assuming he charges).

8 attacks against a TMC = 5.33 hits, = 0.89 wounds. In other words, decent odds to insta-gib a creature, but not nearly ideal.

Against Nobz, 8 attacks = 5.33 hits = 2.67 wounds, = 2 Nobz dead. Of course, the rest then tear him into tiny little bits, exchanging a 160 point HQ unit for two 35-point Nobz. That wasn't very effective.

Against Warriors, more or less the same thing. He kills a couple, the rest shred him.

It seems to me that a Blissgiver Lord ought to be trying to snipe enemy ICs. Attach him to a Raptor squad or some other fast option, get him into base contact with, say, a Librarian, and with I6 and an average of 8 attacks he goes first and puts the other guy down before he can do anything. He can murder Warbosses, Space Marine ICs, plenty of things quite effectively.

However, against a TMC I'd rather take a Nurgle Lord with a Plaguebringer. Wounding on a 4+ you'll put two or three wounds on them every round, which will drop them fairly quickly.

So, question, why are people assuming that the Slaaneshi Lord is going to be alone? Don't Independent Characters have the advantage of joining units?

Nurglitch wrote:So, question, why are people assuming that the Slaaneshi Lord is going to be alone? Don't Independent Characters have the advantage of joining units?

Yes but in combat against a TMC, they can still just allocate all their attacks to the IC and insta-death them.

Regwon wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:So, question, why are people assuming that the Slaaneshi Lord is going to be alone? Don't Independent Characters have the advantage of joining units?

Yes but in combat against a TMC, they can still just allocate all their attacks to the IC and insta-death them.

Ok, but attaching him to a unit brings up other problems depending on what. First off, as has been mentioned, he can still be picked out. Second, most troops will have a terrible time against a TMC: that's the whole point of this thread! Third, you may have morale issues.

Regwon:

Sure, if the Monsterous Creature has S8+, which what, all of one does? Tyrants and Warriors can have Boneswords, but then they're as expensive as all get-out. Chances are that the Slaaneshi Lord will kill the Monstrous Creature before it can attack, and his unit will have shot it up prior to the assault just in case.

BeRzErKeR:

Joining Possessed, or Noise Marines will cause no problems with morale. Indeed, these units are Fearless. Troops like Noise Marines have considerable firepower, and Thousand Suns may be able to kill the creature before the charge can be executed. Plague Marines, well, are pretty useless in these situations (vs I4+ Power Weapon charging situations), but Berzerkers probably won't need the Slaaneshi Lord's help.

Take a Carnifex, for example. If charged it will have I1. If it charges, with Adrenal Glands, it will have I4. In both cases the Slaaneshi Lord is more likely than not to kill it before its Instant Death can affect him. An excellent counter-charge unit for a unit of Berzerkers, often so vulnerable to a charge.

The Slaaneshi Lord has a pretty decent chance of killing just about anything that isn't immune to ID or is Toughness 8(Sorry C'Tan and Wraithlords!).

If I played Chaos I'd field one without hesitation.

The odds are in your favor, but not by too much; see the math above. Odds are, you'll cause either 0 or 1 wound to a TMC; of course, 1 is enough, and you do have a better chance of getting one than none. Still, I'd rather have a Nurgle Lord with Plaguebringer; it seems more effective in more situations.

I guess Typhus is probably the best answer for Chaos Lords that can beat down MCs.

But the Slaanesh lord is nothing to sneeze at either.

Sounds like the Slanesh Lord will kill the MC (0.87 *5/6), which is pretty good. The lord is almost guaranteed to die horribly right after if they are by themselves, but then again the other guy will be falling over himslef trying to keep his expensive stuff away. Also, the main advantage of the Chaos Lord is you can stick him on a bike or give him wings. Abbadon or any other special character can be avoided much more easily.

Your slanesh guy, however sounds vulnerable to being tar-pitted. Won't help much with MC, but I like a MoK lord with wings in a rhino with some zerkers to back him up. Not the most competitive character but no-one knows if he spaz out or not, which makes him scary.

Regardless of what you've joined the character to, you still have the "Only 6's will do" problem. It's a big damn problem for a model to have especially when he's a specific response to a threat and still needs 6's against that threat. Abbadon and Typhus really don't suffer from this issue (Other issues yes, needing 6's no) and still strike at high I and can drop a MC. Of course there is the alternative of putting the MCs in question on the Lash treadmill.

Warriors and Raveners is really the only place Blissgiver excels and Abaddon can murder them far more effectively.

There's nothing keeping abbadon from tooling around in a raider with a berzerker unit.

If you want a fighty character in chaos- Abbadon
If you want something else- Lash Prince or Lash Sorcerer

Actually, if you join the Character to some Terminators with Powerfists it's practically a guarantee to smoke that Trygon. If the Lord doesn't kill the beast, the Fists most likely will.

The problem about "needing 6s" is not the average result, but rather the risk of getting no 6s at all. This is more of a problem the less dice you roll. Example: 8 attacks striking, lest say 6 hit, gives 6 dice needing 6's to wound, on average this should cause one wound. But the chance to get no 6s at all is: (5/6)^6 = ~33% This does of course give a 67% chance to cause at least one wound. If that is a chance that feels fine, go ahead.

Monster Rain wrote:I guess Typhus is probably the best answer for Chaos Lords that can beat down MCs.

Sadly, the Herald lacks one critical component needed in monster combat: Eternal Warrior. In worst case scenario Typhus is one 5+ Invulnerable Save away from going back to Papa Nurgle to explain his latest exploit.