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I have a Squad Of Possessed of 7. I give them the Mark of Khorne as well as a Champion. In my opinion the daemon table may not always be reliable but can really be useful. The 5+ Invuln save can help against the usual one guy with a power-fist and can tare through typical infantry with s5. I love and Value my Possessed.

good for you, its just a shame that bezerkers are cheaper, with a better weapon skill, more powerfull on the charge (S5 +1I), and can pack a fist of their own - and are scoring.

Possessed aren't Berzerkers. Berzerkers don't have a basic S5, Iv5+, Daemonkin, Icons, and a cheap Champion.

Possessed are, for example, much better than Berzerkers when they receive a charge, particularly one where the enemy is I5+ and has some way of ignoring armour.

Let's suppose two units, one unit of 9 Possessed with a Champion and an Icon of Khorne, at around 300pts, and a unit of 9 Berzerkers with a Powerfist armed Skull Champion. Both units are charged by a Crusader full of Thunderhammer-armed Terminators, so 8 Terminators.

Possessed: 31 attacks, hitting on 4+, wounding on 3+, defeating armour on 1. 16 hits, 11 wounds, 2 unsaved wounds.

Berzerkers: 27 regular attacks, hitting on 3+, wounding on 4+, defeating armour on 1. 14 hits, 7 wounds, 1 unsaved wound.

Terminators on Possessed: 6 Terminators, 18 attacks, 4+ to hit, 2+ to wound, 4- to save. 9 hits, 7 wounds, 5 unsaved wounds.

Terminators on Berzerkers: 7 Terminators, 21 attacks, 4+ to hit, 2+ to wound, ignores saves. 11 hits, 9 wounds, 9 unsaved wounds. Skull Champion attacks at the same time: 3 attacks, 2 hits, 2 wounds, 1 unsaved wound.

The Berzerkers lose 9:2, so likely get wiped out by No Retreat! since only one is left and three armour saving throws will be failed on average.

The Possessed lose 5:2, so will likely lose another Possessed to No Retreat! Leaving four left for another round with 6 Terminators.

Second round:

4 Possessed, including Champion, have 13 attacks. 7 hit, 5 wound, 1 unsaved wound.

5 Terminators, have 10 attacks, 5 hit, 4 wound, 3 unsaved wounds.

Possessed lose 3:1, losing the Champion to No Retreat!

So the Possessed outlast a unit of Berzerkers on the charge. When they're wiped out, their loss will not reduce your ability to hold objectives. In the turn that they outlast the Berzerkers, your own units can mount a counter-assault.

If they'd rolled Rending, then:

Possessed: 31 attacks, hitting on 4+, wounding on 3+, defeating armour on 1, Rending. 16 hits, 11 wounds including 2 rending hits, 1 unsaved rending hit, 2 unsaved wounds.

Terminators on Possessed: 5 Terminators, 15 attacks, 4+ to hit, 2+ to wound, 4- to save. 8 hits, 7 wounds, 5 unsaved wounds.

Possessed lose 5:3.

If they have Power Weapons:

Possessed: 41 attacks, hitting on 4+, wounding on 3+, defeating armour on 2-. 21 hits, 14 wounds, 5 unsaved wounds.

Terminators on Possessed: 3 Terminators, 9 attacks, 4+ to hit, 2+ to wound, 4- to save. 5 hits, 4 wounds, 3 unsaved wounds.

Possessed win 5:3.

You need more. 7 isn't enough really for an effective unit. Since they do have the potential to be so devastating, they become prime targets as they cross the board to get into hand-to-hand.

I, for example, try not to field a unit of less than 15, closer to a full 20.
In a prime example, my 20-strong squad tore apart three full units of Black Templar in about 2 1/2 turns.

It may seem a bit pricey to field a full unit, but it's better than going with a cheaper one and having only a couple survive long enough.
This is, if course, only my opinion, and is completely subjective.

I think 8-10 with a rhino is ideal (to maximize rolling scouts).
Larger than 10 is just too expensive and unwieldy...esp. for the Chaos army who can't afford to go spendy on foot infantry with respect to taking a serious consideration to competitivity.

Damn your possessed.

In a good way or a bad way.
I've had decent experiences with them...

Blood2Khorne's possessed are nasty.
They chopped up my plague marines. It was messy.

Sorry still only T4 with a 3+ armour save they'll fall to light weapons just as easily.

Also their lack of frag grenades means if they assault any unit in cover they will be hitting last, i just cannot see a use for this unit when the chaos codex has so many better suited unit for any of it's roles

And again not troops!

Although they may have T4(5), which means that they wouldn't fall so easily to light weapons, if that's an issue for you.

The lack of Frag Grenades is a red herring. If they assault a unit that's already locked, or that's gone to ground, then Frag Grenades are un-necessary. They aren't really there to lead the charge, although they can do it in a pinch, particularly against units that ignore armour. Then again, show me a better unit for taking a charge in the Codex.

Not being Troops is a bonus for what they do: You don't want Troops receiving a charge or leading a forlorn hope. Because they're not Troops they're expendable in objective games, so they aren't wasted holding objectives like Berzerkers would be, and they're great for providing an anchor to Troops like Lesser Daemons and HQs like Greater Daemons.

I think they're a bit expensive and a bit underpowered when compared to some of the other infantry choices for csm. The reason I don't use them however is more that I hate the gift roll which can either make them worth the points or make me wish I had brought something else. I would rather see possession gifts based on the mark given to them, or in some other way allow us to choose the bonus without relying on random chance to make them useful to our army list/theme.

So far all I've used my 2 boxes of possessed for (got them very cheap) have been to make my other troops look more daemonic and give my sorc and lord proper wings.

You should always be prepared for the results of the Daemonkin table. All of the results are useful. Scout and Fleet get them into combat earlier. Feel No Pain makes them tougher. Furious Charge, Rending, and Power Weapons makes them powerful on the charge. That's without the synergies of their Icons. But the point is that you know what they might have, and you can prepare accordingly.

Regarding Scout, you can get them a Rhino. Give that Rhino a Combi-Melta and if you get Scout then you can get a 12" Scout move to close with the enemy, so the Rhino can move 6" on the first turn to Melta an enemy transport. Then you can drop all your Terminators, Obliterators, and Lesser Daemons in on them in the 2nd turn, and convert the Possessed Champion to a Greater Daemon.

Nurglitch wrote:You should always be prepared for the results of the Daemonkin table. All of the results are useful. Scout and Fleet get them into combat earlier. Feel No Pain makes them tougher. Furious Charge, Rending, and Power Weapons makes them powerful on the charge. That's without the synergies of their Icons. But the point is that you know what they might have, and you can prepare accordingly.

Regarding Scout, you can get them a Rhino. Give that Rhino a Combi-Melta and if you get Scout then you can get a 12" Scout move to close with the enemy, so the Rhino can move 6" on the first turn to Melta an enemy transport. Then you can drop all your Terminators, Obliterators, and Lesser Daemons in on them in the 2nd turn, and convert the Possessed Champion to a Greater Daemon.

Of course all of the results make the model better than if they did not get any at all. That is exactly why those results are called gifts. However, most of those results do not make them worth almost double the cost of a space marine while still lacking a space marines basic equipment and options. For most of the gifts I'm better off taking cult troops/elites that come with that gift/rule guaranteed in addition to a host of other special rules and equipment that makes them even better at fulfilling that role. If I want a sturdy tie-up unit with feel no pain why take possessed instead of plague marines? If I want an excellent assault unit with furious charge, fearless,lots of attacks, and mark of khorne why would I take possessed over berzerkers(and for a lot less points)? They are a risk that is not worth the reward in any way.

If we could choose an icon for the squad and that allowed us to pick from a list of of daemonic gifts based around that god's mark it would not only be better from a fluff perspective it might actually encourage people to use them for more than parts.

Let's consider what Possessed have:

+1 Strength, +1 Attack, Fearless, Iv5+, Daemonkin (Scout, Fleet, Feel No Pain, Furious Charge, Rending, Power Weapons).

Let's account for the points spent in this fashion: 1 point per addition or subtraction from a base-value of 15pts. Add +1 to each addition for its direct synergy with some existing trait or addition, so getting +1WS costs 1pt but getting +1WS and Furious Charge costs 4pts (1 for each, +2 for combo of increased to hit and to wound and initiative).

The Possessed comes out to 25pts, which would seem inaccurate until you realize that Power Weapons not only allows the unit to ignore armour saves, but adds +1 attack, pushing the average of Daemonkin up to 3 and making 26 feasible. So yes, the results of the Daemonkin are precisely what makes them worth 26 pts.

Why take Possessed instead of Plague Marines? Because Plague Marines get mangled by stuff that ignores their armour save, and thus their Feel No Pain, and prevents them from shooting. And they fight better in close combat, with two attacks at I4 with S5, rather than two attacks at I3 with S4. Plague Marines melt in the face of Assault Terminators, or regular Terminators for that matter.

Why take Possessed instead of Berzerkers? I've already covered that: because Berzerkers can take a charge the way Possessed can. Possessed can take a charge from Assault Terminators and keep on ticking.

Why take Possessed instead of Terminators? Because they are Fearless and can engage in Sweeping Advances for greater effect. Terminators are for engaging Fearless units, Possessed are for engaging regular units in the centre of the midfield, and calling down Daemonic reinforcements, whereas Terminators are the reinforcements!

While choosing from a list of Daemonic Gifts would be most customizable than the Daemonkin table, we saw what happens if that happens. Certain rules and combinations of rules are simply better than others. The second 3rd edition Chaos Space Marine Codex showed that players would simply choose the most effective combination and forget the rest.

I want a sturdy tie-up unit with feel no pain why take possessed instead of plague marines?

-Because they have an Inv save to tie up 'different' things.

If I want an excellent assault unit with furious charge, fearless,lots of attacks, and mark of khorne why would I take possessed over berzerkers(and for a lot less points)?

-Because a squad with power weapons are alot of killy, while with rending, they can each glance AV 14.

DEAR GOD...it's like a cycle...
Let me direct everyone's attension to here at the very least:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/275830.page

Else, anyone that uses and defends possessed plays with a pair!

Possessed look like other options, but they are a unique unit that when compared to the other options brings us back to Apples and Oranges...the comparison just doesn't work IMO.

Sanctjud wrote:

I want a sturdy tie-up unit with feel no pain why take possessed instead of plague marines?

-Because they have an Inv save to tie up 'different' things.

If I want an excellent assault unit with furious charge, fearless,lots of attacks, and mark of khorne why would I take possessed over berzerkers(and for a lot less points)?

-Because a squad with power weapons are alot of killy, while with rending, they can each glance AV 14.

DEAR GOD...it's like a cycle...
Let me direct everyone's attension to here at the very least:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/275830.page

Else, anyone that uses and defends possessed plays with a pair!

Possessed look like other options, but they are a unique unit that when compared to the other options brings us back to Apples and Oranges...the comparison just doesn't work IMO.

They are a uniquely bad option that has no real benefit over any of our other options without an extremely good roll. Comparing assault troops to assault troops =/= apples to oranges, sorry. You are aware that an apple has different types, flavors, shapes, sizes, and colors right?

If you think an awful invul save makes them better than taking 2 regular space marines or similar numbers of cult troops (that can shoot before assaulting btw, a whole set of attacks the possessed don't get) then I bet your opponents are rather happy about that.

Halsfield:

So, instead of offering analysis and insight, all you can say is "Nuh-uh!"? Tactical genius...

How can we possibly be back here again? Possessed are as good as any of the other cult units you can pack in a rhino. They trade greater combat durability for lack of scoring.

I'm going to get a head up on the next threads!

Ksons are fully equal to Zerkers or Plague Marines.
Obliterators are better than havocs.
Lash is the best role for an HQ choice.
Rhinos are mandatory.

Whoa Whoa 40Kenthusiast...no need to open a can of beating a dead horse like Blood4Khorne .
____________________

@Halsfield:

You are aware that an apple has different types, flavors, shapes, sizes, and colors right?

So you are agreeing that they are still different though similar

Sanctjud wrote:Whoa Whoa 40Kenthusiast...no need to open a can of beating a dead horse like Blood4Khorne .
____________________

@Halsfield:

You are aware that an apple has different types, flavors, shapes, sizes, and colors right?

So you are agreeing that they are still different though similar

Yes of course I'm saying they're different but similar, that was my whole point to you. You were saying they were too unalike to be compared by saying they were like apples and oranges. I am saying that while different they are in the same realm of function and usage(even if not exactly so, as golden delicious and granny smith are both apples but taste different).

Nurglitch wrote:Halsfield:

So, instead of offering analysis and insight, all you can say is "Nuh-uh!"? Tactical genius...

I think my earlier post offered plenty of analysis and insight. My second post was reinforcing that earlier post while pointing out the flaws I saw in the post I quoted. I don't think anything I said in either post was as simple or childish in meaning as "nuh-uh".

-------------------------------------
Reply to Nurglitch's post as I didn't have the time before work earlier today:

Nurglitch wrote:
Why take Possessed instead of Plague Marines? Because Plague Marines get mangled by stuff that ignores their armour save, and thus their Feel No Pain, and prevents them from shooting. And they fight better in close combat, with two attacks at I4 with S5, rather than two attacks at I3 with S4. Plague Marines melt in the face of Assault Terminators, or regular Terminators for that matter.

This argument doesn't work for me. You are saying that plague marines are bad because there are weapons out there that can kill plague marines. Are there no high strength weapons around to kill the possessed like their are ap3 weapons around to kill the plague marines? This game is all about rock paper scissors, and you are essentially saying that rock is better than scissors because no one takes paper.

Plague marines are far better against a wider variety of units than the possessed. They are designed from the ground up to take a charge and survive. There are of course ways to kill them. If there weren't they would be a lot more costly than 23pts/model. They can also shoot the hell out of the unit before being charged as well which could be a deciding factor. It is essentially a whole round of combat that the possessed can't take part in.

Nurglitch wrote:

Why take Possessed instead of Berzerkers? I've already covered that: because Berzerkers can take a charge the way Possessed can. Possessed can take a charge from Assault Terminators and keep on ticking.

??? Who takes berzerkers so they can "take" a charge instead of making one? I think you are misunderstanding what assault troops like berzerkers are meant to do. If I want something that can handle a charge (and has an invul save) there are plenty of other units to do so and usually for a lot cheaper meaning more bodies. If I want something that gets lots of attacks(guaranteed), has solid WS, and can actually shoot before charging, I'll take berzerkers and get a lot more of them than I could with possessed.

Nurglitch wrote:

Why take Possessed instead of Terminators? Because they are Fearless and can engage in Sweeping Advances for greater effect. Terminators are for engaging Fearless units

You would take possessed over terminators because of fearless? I would still argue that berzerkers do this job better. They are fearless, cost 5 points less, have more attacks on the charge, can shoot, always have furious charge, can take wargear upgrades, etc. The major difference between the two is that invul save, and I still must say that it is not going to save your ass in any kind of a pinch.

Someone with a power weapon is going to charge those possessed, they'll get their invul save, and they will still die most of the time (and for more points! yay!).

Nurglitch wrote:Possessed are for engaging regular units in the centre of the midfield, and calling down Daemonic reinforcements...

Why do I need an elite to deal with regular units? My csms already do this just fine. As for calling down daemonic reinforcements I think there are better units for doing this too and for far cheaper (ie chosen, but also regular csm do it just fine).

Nurglitch wrote:
While choosing from a list of Daemonic Gifts would be most customizable than the Daemonkin table, we saw what happens if that happens. Certain rules and combinations of rules are simply better than others. The second 3rd edition Chaos Space Marine Codex showed that players would simply choose the most effective combination and forget the rest.

So we shouldn't have any options because people only take the good options? There are ways of balancing things other than simply taking away options to make less things to balance. Making "better" choices cost more is a great start, but there is also the option of simply not giving "better" options but options that allow people to play different army types.

A test! A test!

Who here has played more than a single game with this edition's Possessed? I almost know (this is the internet after all) Nurglitch, Sanctjud, Blood4Khorne and I have. Blood and I both swear by ours (I run 7 and Icon of Nurgle), while Sanctjud and Nurglitch have atleast had good experiences with them in lists largely not designed for them. Somehow I doubt Halsfield has. I wonder why.

There is little arguement that Khorne Berserkers have more reliable offensive power, if they can get the charge. However, where the Possessed are utterly head and shoulders above them is in durability, especially when equiped with a defensive Icon. They can recieve a charge with little impact to their cost-effectiveness, while Berserkers can't. Possessed have cheaper access to a Champion, and paired with their durability, make perfect vessels for a Deepstrike bomb. (Oh I love my Scouts, yes I do.) Yes, you have to understand how each power on the Daemonkin table affects their usefulness, but when you use them enough you pick up on tricks for getting the most out of their powers.

I brought up a point in Sanctjud's thread that is relevant here: when comparing Possessed you need to give them the power that is best suited for the task. 'But you only have a 1/6 chance of getting that power!' That doesn't matter: on the table top, where you commit the Possessed should be entirely dependant on their power. You won't run into situations where I fleet my Possessed into a Dreadnoughts unless I'm on my way out of the game, or I have a plan (tieing it up for my good old Great Unclean One, for instance). In either of the two exceptions it isn't the Possessed's fault.

I could write some more stuff, but I'm just re-hashing what I wrote here:

DarkHound wrote:Against Terminators? Rending or Power Weapons makes short work of them. Sometimes I'd even risk Furious Charge if they have mostly Power Weapons (Chaos or Wolves). Eldar? My Possessed have T5, so no close combat Eldar stand much of a chance. Banshees do so poorly it is laughable, and Scorpions and Harlies are worse. Orks? FnP seals their fate, although Fleet and Furious Charge also work wonders with my T5. Those powers mean you'll be getting the charge, and Orks hate wounding on 6's. Guard? Lawlz. 'Nids? Last edition my Possessed went toe to toe with Gene-stealers with Furious Charge, FnP, Fleet, or Power Weapons. Granted, it wasn't a massacre. I'd usually lose the squad while killing the second brood, but it was rarely a bad trade. With Rending I poured the wounds on Carnifexs.

All of this stuff I can't say of Berskers, which I do break out and play every so often. Berserkers have performed better against Orks when they get the charge, but it is harder to do without Fleet, and they get shredded if they perform sub-par for even a round (lacking T5, FnP and 5++). Berserkers do not fight Gene-stealers. Period. They also don't fight Banshees or Harlies, who will get the charge. Possessed out perform them because they are not glass cannons. Possessed are really durable, while retaining combat power to match Berserkers.

One last thing about grenades: it isn't nearly the issue some people make it out to be. You want to know why Gene-stealers took such a hit when they lost it? Swinging after a Tac squad when you are only T4 5+ is really bad for your health, but swinging after them when you are T5 3+, 5++ isn't. Things that are hanging out in cover rarely outclass Possessed in close combat, and don't have the bite to really take advantage of swinging first.

While Sanctjud and nurglitch have made excellent points concerning possessed i think there is one thing they are forgetting. And that is people who discredit possessed will be swiftly overtaken by them. They are a good shock unit I have used possessed several times and with success. In my opinion the Icon's they can choose from seal the deal for me. The simple fact they are superior to a regular marine for only 26 points with an invulnerable and a daemonkin power says they were made to do work.

I once gave them an icon of tzeentch, with a 4+ invulnerable they were pretty much ready to take on the world. I threw a 10 man squad of them at a 5 man TH/SS termies and they cleaned them up.

I have also tried with icon of nurgle. At S5 and T5 they are a force to be scared of. Also, if you happen to roll furious charge, you essentially have a small daemon prince. S6 T5 I5 with 30 attacks on the charge, is not something i want in my face.

My last experiment with them i tried for an icon of slaneesh. With IoS any roll on the table helps them. My plan was to strike first and use the possessed as troop killers. I rolled rending and they performed greatly.

With any of the icons you choose just make sure you decide a job for your possessed and they will perform. Tzeentch to kill terminators, or power weapon hunts. Nurgle for light to mid range units. And with slaneesh i used them purely to kill MEQ's. For around 300 points i think they are a great unit to choose, i primarily use them in 1750 or larger games, but they are easily useable in 1500 lists.

In short, i support possessed.

Something else I'll add, which is another point where I disagree with Darkhound and Sanctjud ("largely not designed for them"? the cheek...), is that Possessed helped me love the Lash.

Originally I didn't like the Lash of Submission because my gaming group used lots of vehicles near the end of 4th edition when they were considered death-traps: it was too easy to defeat, particularly when Daemon Princes could be shot to hell and had to forgo stuff like Marks of Tzeentch and Nurgle to get it.

But then a thought occurred to me while I was trying to figure out where to put my expensive Sorcerer of Tzeentch, and I realized that the unit of Possessed/Death Company (my army was still dual-purposed back then) would mean that their shooting wouldn't interfere with his Bolt of Change.

Eventually I put two and two together and took a Sorcerer of Slaanesh with Warptime and Lash of Submission, and stuck him in a unit of Possessed. He could fire out of the top hatch of their Rhino, and not only position dismounted enemy for attacks and blasts/templates, but safely do so when his unit was dismounted (it's only a Rhino), and made the unit even more murderous: for their part they helped protect the Sorcerer against Power Fists by piling attacks on units, and he contributed Frag Grenaded, 4-5 I6 Warptimed Power Weapon attacks, and became Fearless so long as at least one of them survived. Lash causes pinning, which negates difficult terrain penalties to Initiative.

As I explored the possibilities, I noticed synergies with other characters: Kharn, for example, can't murder Possessed as easily as he can Berzerkers. You suffer ~1/3 fewer friendly chops, while again attacking with Frag Grenades when attacking an enemy in cover, and more importantly some considerable anti-vehicle. Similarly they help protect Typhus from hidden Power Fists and fluffed Daemon Weapon rolls while keeping him in the thick of it where Nurgle's Rot hurts the most, and giving the whole unit Defensive Grenades (until Typhus buys it).

The drawback is that Scout and Fleet no long work if they escort a character, but if that's the plan, then you don't have to worry about them having a Rhino and can stick them in a Land Raider for a bludgeon unit. You can stick 8-9 of them in a Land Raider...

DarkHound wrote:

Blood and I both swear by ours (I run 7 and Icon of Nurgle), while Sanctjud and Nurglitch have atleast had good experiences with them in lists largely not designed for them. Somehow I doubt Halsfield has. I wonder why.

Wow, right out the gate with the inexperience quip? This is that the best argument you could come up with? This guy doesn't play the way I do so he must be inexperienced?

I've been playing this game as long if not longer than most people on these boards and bought 2 boxes of possessed when they came out. Used them extensively until I figured out that I prefer cult troops or the other elite options to possessed. If they were cheaper and had static bonuses I would take them because they are a great looking unit.

DarkHound wrote:
There is little arguement that Khorne Berserkers have more reliable offensive power, if they can get the charge. However, where the Possessed are utterly head and shoulders above them is in durability, especially when equiped with a defensive Icon. They can recieve a charge with little impact to their cost-effectiveness, while Berserkers can't. Possessed have cheaper access to a Champion, and paired with their durability, make perfect vessels for a Deepstrike bomb. (Oh I love my Scouts, yes I do.)

Khorne berzerkers have just as much, if not more offensive capability( unless you roll power weapons) for 5 less pts/model and if they get the charge they are head and shoulders above possessed. A defensive icon only makes possessed even more expensive, and makes me even less likely to take them as I could do better with more of other units with very similar stat lines. I also think chosen are the perfect vessels for a deep strike bomb considering they will always be able to infiltrate. Loading up an army with deep striking units and relying on possessed seems like a great way to set yourself up for disappointment when you don't roll scout.

DarkHound wrote:Against Terminators? Rending or Power Weapons makes short work of them. Sometimes I'd even risk Furious Charge if they have mostly Power Weapons (Chaos or Wolves). Eldar? My Possessed have T5, so no close combat Eldar stand much of a chance. Banshees do so poorly it is laughable, and Scorpions and Harlies are worse. Orks? FnP seals their fate, although Fleet and Furious Charge also work wonders with my T5. Those powers mean you'll be getting the charge, and Orks hate wounding on 6's. Guard? Lawlz. 'Nids? Last edition my Possessed went toe to toe with Gene-stealers with Furious Charge, FnP, Fleet, or Power Weapons. Granted, it wasn't a massacre. I'd usually lose the squad while killing the second brood, but it was rarely a bad trade. With Rending I poured the wounds on Carnifexs.

Being able to use the randomly rolled stats effectively is not a reason for taking possessed, it is simply making good with a subpar unit. Saying "I killed <insert number> of <insert tough unit> with <insert favorite unit choice>" is not an argument, sorry. If your argument is that possessed are versatile because of their daemonkin role I would argue that I would rather take cheaper units that fit the role I need every single time and not need to shift my tactics around a random special rule.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

mrwittwer wrote:The simple fact they are superior to a regular marine for only 26 points with an invulnerable and a daemonkin power says they were made to do work.

I was refering to the Crap Legion with that "largely not designed" comment.

Its all the in the durability, Halsfield. Berserkers will crumble when being charged by Orks, Possessed with Icon of Nurgle will not. If the Berserkers screw up their rolls for even a turn, they'll take too many casualties to keep up. They are not head and shoulders above Possessed offensively like Possessed are defensively. With Possessed rolling Furious Charge, Berserkers aren't terribly better (a little more than a kill more, including the Powerfist). With Rending or Power Weapons, Possessed are hands down better than Berserkers. Fleet, FnP and Scout all give the Possessed a different function than Berserkers, and the comparisons become more apples to oranges.

In that paragraph I was pointing out which abilities I've seen be most effective. Does that mean I don't know how to handle a Rending roll against Orks? No, but it is less favourable than FnP or Fleet. A difference between Possessed and conventional units is that once you figure out how to use them effectively, you're done. Possessed change powers, drastically changing their role from game to game. You have to get a feel for how a certain power will help you in whatever match up you're in. You've got to have a plan for where you'll send them for any power they roll. This makes it hard for your opponent to plan their deployment around them, while that is exactly what you are doing. Your opponent knows exactly what the Berserkers are going to do, but can't know what the Possessed will do. Even my gaming group, who are exposed to Possessed, can't plan for them perfectly, especially when I can do stuff like go tank hunting with Furious Charge and make it work, or when that Scout move could be a red herring and it all depends on whether or not you over-commit to it. If you do, I don't use them as my Deepstrike point. If you don't, they are still a real threat and I do Deepstrike there.

Berserkers don't get that kind of utility, I'm sorry.

DarkHound wrote:

Its all the in the durability, Halsfield. Berserkers will crumble when being charged by Orks, Possessed with Icon of Nurgle will not. If the Berserkers screw up their rolls for even a turn, they'll take too many casualties to keep up. They are not head and shoulders above Possessed offensively like Possessed are defensively. With Possessed rolling Furious Charge, Berserkers aren't terribly better (a little more than a kill more, including the Powerfist). With Rending or Power Weapons, Possessed are hands down better than Berserkers. Fleet, FnP and Scout all give the Possessed a different function than Berserkers, and the comparisons become more apples to oranges.

You are misunderstanding a little I think. I am not saying berzerkers > possessed in every role imaginable. I am saying when I need an assault troop I take berzerkers. When I need a unit that can shoot the crap out of an enemy unit, then take a charge, then win by attrition I take plague marines over possessed. If I need a unit to get in close to the enemy quickly to allow me to deep strike units in I have chosen. I have yet to come across a role I need possessed for that another unit does not fill better (and usually for less or a lot less points).

I've also said repeatedly that possessed with power weapons are worth their points, but that is a 1/6 chance that cannot be relied upon.

DarkHound wrote:
You've got to have a plan for where you'll send them for any power they roll. This makes it hard for your opponent to plan their deployment around them, while that is exactly what you are doing. Your opponent knows exactly what the Berserkers are going to do, but can't know what the Possessed will do. Even my gaming group, who are exposed to Possessed, can't plan for them perfectly, especially when I can do stuff like go tank hunting with Furious Charge and make it work, or when that Scout move could be a red herring and it all depends on whether or not you over-commit to it. If you do, I don't use them as my Deepstrike point. If you don't, they are still a real threat and I do Deepstrike there.

Berserkers don't get that kind of utility, I'm sorry.

If that's how you play that is fine, but for me I play my army and build my army so that regardless of what the other player knows my units can do I can still win. Even if the other player knows my berzerkers are going to head for the first juicy target and charge at it that doesn't stop them from doing it if I'm playing smartly and have supported the berzerkers properly. Relying on the randomness of a unit to confuse the opponent just isnt going to work against an experienced player. I also don't see how possessed are really going to play wildly different from one special rule to the next. They are always going to be close combat infantry units, it is just what types of close combat benefits they will get (minus scout, which still makes them play the same).

Okay, let's consider two units of equivalent points value, Berzerkers and Possessed, going head to head in the Ork-Murder event at the Olympics. Both face a mob of 30 Orks, 29 Boyz and a Nob with a Powerklaw. The Boyz have Sluggas and Choppas, because we want to lean on the scales in favour of carnage.

Let's say 10 Possessed with an Icon of Khorne vs 9 Berzerkers and a Skull Champion with a Powerfist

Scenario: Charge the Orks.

9 Berzerkers have four attacks on the charge each, hitting on 3+ on the Orks (WS5), wounding on 3+, and failing armour on 5-. The Orks will have three attacks each, with 4+ to hit, 5+ to wound, and failing armour saves on 2-. The Skull Champion and the Nob will strike simultaneously with the Skull Champion hitting on 3+, wounding on 2+, and disallowing saves with four attacks, while the Nob hits on 4+, etc, with three.

Berzerkers: 36 attacks, 24 hits, 18 wounds, 15 failed saves.
Orks: 42 attacks, 21 hits, 7 wounds, 2 failed saves.
Skull Champion: (4)(4/6)(5/6) = 80/36 or 2 & 2/9
Nob: (3)(3/6)(5/6) = 45/36 = 15/12 or 1 & 1/4

So call it 17:3 in favour of the Berzerkers. That means around 14 armour saves for the Orks, and another 12 casualties or so.

Ten Possessed with four attacks on the charge each with 4+ to hit, 3+ to wound, and 5- to save.

Possessed: 40 attacks, 20 hits, 14 wounds, 12 failed saves
Orks: 51 attacks, 26 hits, 8 wounds, 2 failed saves.
Nob: (3)(3/6)(5/6)(4/6) = 180/216 = ~5/6

The Possessed win by 12:2, so 9 more Orks die to failed saves.

The Berzerkers successfully murder 29 Ork boyz at the cost of three of their own. The Possessed merely murder 21 Ork Boyz at the cost of two of their own. In the ensuing Ork close combat phase:

6 Berzerkers have three attacks each, so:

Berzerkers: 18 attacks, 12 hits, 6 wounds, 5 failed saves.
Dead Ork Nob.

8 Possessed have three attacks each, so:

Possessed: 24 attacks, 12 hits, 8 wounds, 7 failed saves
Orks: 3 attacks, 2 hits, 1 wounds, 0 failed saves
Ork Nob: Ork Nob: (4)(3/6)(5/6(4/6) = 1 failed save

Possessed win: 7:1, provoking 6 more failed saves, killing the last boyz and the Nob.

So at the end of two rounds of combat the Possessed and Berzerkers have both demolished a mob of Ork boyz in a frontal assault, the way Khorne intended. There's six Berzerkers left and a Skull Champion, while there's 7 Possessed left.

Of course, had the Possessed had Furious Charge:

Possessed: 40 attacks, 20 hits, 17 wounds, 14 failed saves
Orks: 45 attacks, 23 hits, 8 wounds, 3 failed saves
Ork Nob: Ork Nob: (4)(3/6)(5/6(4/6) = 1 failed save

So the Possessed would win the first round of combat 14:4, resulting in 8-9 more dead Orks, for about 22. They clean these up in the next round.

Had the Possessed had rending:

Possessed: 40 attacks, 20 hits, 14 wounds (3 ignoring armour saves), 12 failed saves. Well, not unexpected: Orks have crappy saves.

Had the Possessed had Power Weapons:

Possessed: 50 attacks, 25 hits, 17 wounds, 17 failed saves.
Orks: 36 attacks, 18 hits, 6 wounds, 2 unsaved wounds.
Ork Nob: Ork Nob: (4)(3/6)(5/6(4/6) = 1 failed save

Possessed win 17:3, which means that the Orks either get luck or get wiped out. In a single round.

Had the Possessed had Feel No Pain:

Possessed: 40 attacks, 20 hits, 14 wounds, 12 failed saves
Orks: 51 attacks, 26 hits, 8 wounds, 2 failed saves, 1 failed Feel No Pain.
Nob: (3)(3/6)(5/6)(4/6) or 1 failed save

12:2, 9 more wounds on the Orks.

But let's suppose it worked out the other way around, where the Boyz mob charged first.

Berzerkers: 27 attacks, 18 hit, 9 wound, 8 failed saves.
Ork Boyz: 84 attacks, 42 hit, 21 wound, 7 failed saves.
Skull Champion: 3 attacks, 2 hit, 2 wound, 2 failed saves
Ork Nob: (4)(3/6)(5/6) = 2 failed saves

The Berzerkers win 10:9, so another Ork boy buys it and the Skull Champion and his buddy are left facing 20 Orks.

Possessed: 27 attacks, 14 hit, 10 wounds, 9 failed saves
Ork Boyz: 80 attacks, 40 hit, 20 wound, 7 failed saves
Ork Nob: (4)(3/6)(5/6(4/6) = 1 failed save

The Possessed win 9:8, so another Ork boy buyz it and two Possessed are left.

And so on. Work out the Power Weapons, Rending, and Feel No Pain variations for your own due diligence.

Heh..I like the jab there Nurglitch.
Just a note, I don't like Lash based on horrible tabling I did a while back in 4th.
It's obviously different in 5th, but it's still horrid when the rest of the list is there to boot people out of their cans .

And yes, Crap Legion...it gives me the itch to play them again (after my current project that is ).
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Bottome Line: possessed are not ideal in terms of living to the fluff or 3.5 edition, but they have their charm/niche/uses.

We all agree they are a bit overpriced, but it doesn't stop them from functioning the way they function.

I think the issue, Halsfield, is that you're mindset is 'assault' unit. I've used my Possessed as everything from counter-assault to tank hunters. The Possessed are a very rugged frame to mount each of the special rules, all it takes is a little creativity to push the powers. Did you know you can use Fleet to improve their role as a shock trooper just as easily as you can use it to make them a better assault unit? How about that you can use Scout for counter-assault, especially against hordes?

Berserkers, on the other hand, will always be objective takers. They're damned good at it, but that's all they can be really good at. Their anti-tank is a defensive mechanism; they aren't durable enough to be shock-troopers; their effectiveness is too tied to their Champion for them to be effective daemon vessels. They can do counter-assault, but then you're wasting their scoring status.

I don't need them to confuse my opponent: infact it works even better when they know exactly what I could be doing. If they understand that even their vehicles are a target when my Possessed roll Furious Charge it makes it harder for them to count on what I'm actually going after with the Possessed. Using Scout as a red herring, like I mentioned earlier, only works if the opponent thinks they know whats coming. It isn't about the randomness of the unit; it is about the percieved randomness.

By the way, I honestly think Power Weapons is the worst power you can roll. I've found the least ammount of tricks for it, which means its only really good against what your opponent expects.

I will mob the possessed ones with 30 to 50 guards,las the hell outta ya